Necromancer Solutions as of TSO [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Xil

11-25-2008, 08:47 PM

This is a list of suggested "Solutions" to many if not all of the immediate conserns most of us have about the Necromancer class as well as some applicable to the Summoner Archetype in general. This thread is for the sole purpose of collecting these solutions in a single space and should not be used for any reason other than that purpose. Argumentative and negative posts will just defeat the purpose of this thread.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=432498" target="_blank">This thread </a>(<---Link) can be used to discuss current conserns and issues about the Necromancer class.I have collected most of these solutions from various sources including these forums to get this thread started. This OP will be regularly updated as more solutions are offered to the thread. Any suggestions are welcome and will be added to this Post.Everyone has a right to their own opinion. But lets keep it constructive and positive. Right, wrong, or indifferent we need a Solutions thread the developers can look at without having to wade through negative posts. Please try to summerize solutions into a similar format as seen below and attach a description to them in your posts so they can be easily added to the OP here. We have a finite number of characters per post so lengthy descriptions in the OP are not possible.<hr /> Spells that need attention: Darkness line_: Combine total damage over time into direct damage and ensure damage hits before snare is applied to avoid self-canceling. Upgrade this spell through tier 8. Retain all other stats, cool down, recovery, and cast time. Plot line_: Remove Epic Immunity and lower effectiveness for epic mobs. Example: “If target is epic stun lasts 2 seconds, 1 second, then target becomes Immune”. Dumb fire pets_: Scale Dumbfire Pet Damage with +Spell and +Base Spell Damage.Remove hate burst on application and termination. Apply burst hate evenly over the duration. Lower cast time by 50%. Lower recast time by 20%. Swarm and Disturbance.Add Shadows AA that applies AE Immunity to all Temp pets.Replace Dumbfires with Damage over Time Spells.Allow Dumbfires to avoid AE damage 50% of the time.Remove PvP rules from PvE encounters. Bats line_: Lower cast time to 1 second and increase recast to 13 seconds. Increase defense reduction by 50% or damage tick by 50%. Life transfer line_: Double damage received and heal amount. Or apply stats from Drain line_ but instead of healing the Necro “Heals target’s target”. (in this case it would share the cool down of the Drain line_) Hearts line_(Shards Applicable): Increase number summoned to 4. Increase power regained by 100% and health cost by 50%.Allow recast to overwrite previous cast with new hearts (tier dependant AD1-M1)Add Temp Damage Mod to Heart Use to encourage use, suggested value 10% increase Spell and CA Fear line_: Add hate reduction equivalent to Magic Leash AA for the Necro. Remove epic Immunity for hate reduction but allow fear Immunity. Remove from Tainted Heals proc list Soul Siphon_: Remove 1/6 chance and replace with 50% chance to add a missing soul instead. Lower recast of Soul Spells by 50% to allow stacking of souls. Add hate gain to Unstoppable Soul and Hate reduction to Flayers Soul. Change Servile Soul to Undead Army “Summon all Necro standard pets for duration” Double damage of Pestilent Soul AE.Greatly increase healing of Soothing SoulChange all spells to Tagetable Buffs equivilent to sharing Necro self Utility (aka FD, Lich, AE immune) Vampirism_: Add “Target receives Immunity to non-direct AE damage, this effect grants a total of 1 trigger of the spell” Should add a bit of Utility to a spell that in current content does not offer any.Make orb AE immune, and last the durration, and buff its DMG/Heal by 20-30% "without the set bonus" Hordes_: Remove corpse requirement Increase health cost per tick by 50% and reduce recast to 8 minutes. Bulwark line_: Change hate proc from damage received to on successful attack.Add AE melee damage Proc to Melee attacks. <hr /> Pets need attention too: (Applicable to Conj pets of same class)All Pets_: (Summoner)All pets need to benefit from Upgraded stats based on gear for both the Necro and the Conjuror.Apply a blanket increase to Spell/CA/Melee (Crits and Damage) to Summoner pets at 10-30% (AD1 to M1) ratio based on Summoner Spell Damage and Spell Crits. Make this a buff that requires con slot Or add as an AA option to Shadows. Change Mythical summon to Vazzaele's Possesion and allow the effect to target current primary pet and transform them into Master 4 version of themself (Similar effect for Conjuror Mythical) !!!Add equipment/augment slots to all pets allowing summoners to increase pet Utility and damage through drops or Harvestables similar to Vanguard corpse harvest mechanics! Allow this to apply for all levels not simply max level progression!! Scout pet_: Double total Health increase total power by 50%. Add Melee Mitigation debuff, similar to Dispatched at 20% value (AD1-M1 comparable), to ability bar at position 1. Use immunity to stop use, similar to Lifeburn Immunity, so multiple summoners using same class pet can make use of this ability in a raid or group situation. Mage Pet_: Double total Health increase total power by 50%. Add All Magical Damage Mitigation debuff, similar to dispatched at 20% value (AD1-M1 comparable and M4 for Mythical), to ability bar at position 1. Use immunity to stop use, similar to Lifeburn Immunity, so multiple summoners using same class pet can make use of this ability in a raid or group situation. Tank Pet_: Add duel wield for offensive stance. Increase base Damage per Second while dual wielding by 75%. Increase in-combat Power Regeneration while in Offensive stance. <hr /> AAs that need attention:Ooze Pet_: Change to additional summon rather than replacement summon. Or change to curse added to current pet ability bar. Animist Bond_: Change to Convert Power into Damage over time. 50 power for 200 damage every 2.5 seconds or until canceled. Empower Servant_: Change to Soul Siphon proc. Allow chance to siphon power on any successful spell attack. Unflinching Servant_: Change to Health Siphon proc. Allow chance to siphon health on any successful melee attack. Blood Pact_: Allow Blood Pact to protect temporary pets as well as primary pets from all non-direct AE damage (Including melee based AE and reposte, in some cases melee based AE does not get blocked) Lifeburn_: Adjust damage to 10x total health and terminate at total health spent (regardless of heals 10k total health procs 100k damage and stops) and reduce recast time to 4 minutes. 10% total health (not base health) x 10 every second for 10 seconds.Add AA for Focus LifeBurn that applies to the entire group.<hr /> Misc. Suggestions Group/Ally "Fury of the Undead" 100% lich proc on all spell/CA dmg for 30 sec.Allow this to be a single target ally buff that requires a Con Slot. Allow multiple instances to be used based on Con Slots. <hr /> Please be sure that all discussion in this thread remains constructive. I would ask that this thread be moderated to avoid argumentative and non-constructive posts.

Xil

11-25-2008, 08:48 PM

Core SpellsDarkness line_: The darkness Line of Spells seem to be intended to offer a small amount of damage and a moderate amount of utility (snare) but in most cases offers no damage and no utility because not only does all other damage dispel the effect of the DoT but it also breaks itself regularly. Simply used as a filler spell between cool downs and an extremely situational soloing tool. Possible solutions to the lack of utility and damage offered by this spell would be:Combine total damage over time calculation into direct damage and ensure damage hits before snare to bring this more in line with the SK version of snare which acts more as a small nuke with a snare proc. This would make it much more useful to both DPS and soloing.This spell could also be upgraded through tier 8 to improve the usefulness of the snare and damage output. Plot line_: Our stun doesn’t have much appeal from many different angles. It’s not effective on most group content where it can actually be useful (many targets are simply immune to stun which also negates the damage proc) and it’s also fully Epic Immune so it has no use for raiding content.A possible solution is to remove Epic Immunity and lower effectiveness for epic mobs by adding in diminishing returns as well as limited duration. Example: “If target is epic stun lasts 2 seconds, 1 second, then target becomes Immune”. This would allow for a small interrupt utility similar to scouts (where we are intended to be on the scale) that is effective in a raid setting that also provides a small measure of damage. Dumb fire pets_: Our dumb fire pets, while effective on content that does not have AE’s, clearly fall short of being effective in RoK and TSO content. Mobs AE more frequently and in higher amounts of damage and it’s to the point where casting these spells is a waste of cast time. This damage is important to the summoner archetype in general and needs to be protected by some means other than positioning. There are also distinct disadvantages with the Hate gain on termination effect. These spells are completely useless during solo encounters because the burst of hate is far more than our Pets can compensate for (pre-mythical). Possible solutions to these problems include:Remove hate burst on termination. Apply burst hate evenly over the duration. This would make these spells useful again for soloing without losing the intended hate generation.Lower cast time by 50%. To be honest here these spells are on a long refresh and are awkward to cast while trying to DPS with a class that depends so exclusively on keeping all the damage ticking at once. The time to cast should be reduced significantly to bring them more in line with our other DPS spells. Lower recast time by 20%. Swarm and Disturbance. These too spells have quite a long refresh even when fully enhanced by AA’s and being as they are 30 second duration spells fully enhanced by AA’s they should really be much closer to a 30 second recast than they are currently.Add Shadows AA that applies AE Immunity to all Temp pets. This would provide the protection summoners want to ensure the integrity of this source of damage in more and more AE focused content.Replace Dumbfires with Damage over Time Spells. This would be a much easier way to completely remove the death factor from the dumbfire pets but at the cost of the intention of the mechanic.In either case these pets are made useless by the fact that content has moved to a much higher frequency of AE damage in all content solo/group/raid. And simply adjusting them to strike at the back of the mob is no longer enough as scripted mobs frequently do PBAoE damage as well as turn to face these dumbfires regularly. We cannot control them in any way so positioning for scripted encounters is an impossible task.Bats line_: This spell has become widely un-used by all Necro players. It’s Damage is too low to warrant it’s cast time and it’s Utility is also to low to warrant the loss of damage to cast it. It’s simply not an effective spell to use in most if not all situations.A solution to this problem would be to lower cast time to 1 second and increase recast to 13 seconds to allow for a quick cast between main damage spell casting and/or to increase defense reduction by 50% or damage tick by 50% to make it useful enough to justify the longer cast time. Life transfer line_: Our transfer heal while a sound Utility in theory falls quite short in application. The healed amount is much too small to make a significant impact as well the refresh time on this does not compare to it’s usefulness.Possible solutions to this issue include doubling the damage received and heal amount. Or to apply stats from Drain line_ but instead of healing the Necro “Heals target’s target”. (in this case it would share the cool down of the Drain line_) This would slightly alter the Necro’s role from pure DPS to DPS/Utility without completely altering the core nature of this ability. It still wouldn’t be a heal that can be used to replace a healer by any means but it would offer a steady supply of healing support. It would also offer the Necro a unique place on a raid roster than no other DPS class can duplicate. (which is one of the main problems facing the class atm) Hearts line_(Shards Applicable): Our hearts and shards have been replaced by much more effective means of power regeneration. This leads us directly into competition with classes that offer better power regen and more utility. One of the main reasons summoners in general lose out to Enchanters and Bards for raid slots.Possible solutions to this issue include increasing the number summoned hearts and shards to 4. Increasing the total power regained by 100% and health cost by 50% to competitively offer a more stable form of power regen.And allow recast to overwrite previous cast with new hearts (tier dependant AD1-M1) This is a major source of frustration to both summoners and the people they raid and group with . These are stack limited items and therefore should not be canceled out by previous castings of the spell. Hearts and Shards may have needed to be limited in the past but because of this hard cap limitation have become useless for current progression. Fear line_: Our fear spells simply don’t find an effective use in any situation other than to proc our tainted heals AA. In groups it has no practical use and is also Epic immune so it has no value to raiding whatsoever. However this spell can be made useful again by adding a hate reduction (which Necro is lacking specifically where all other DPS are not)Adding hate reduction equivalent to Magic Leash AA for the Necro would allow a necro to more effectively use this spell as crowd control during solo encounters. It would also give Necro a much needed hate reduction for grouping. Remove epic Immunity for hate reduction but allow fear Immunity. Allowing this hate reduction to hit epic targets would also be ver effective in balancing out the Necro hate generation with our intended DPS and utility (when it is implemented) Remove from Tainted Heals proc list so that it is not used to over power the soloing ability of the Necro. This spell could be used (after these changes) to trivialize under-con epic x2 encounters as well as difficult 3^^^ encounters and should not be allowed to do so.

Necrodeath79

11-26-2008, 06:49 AM

Darkness line_: Combine total damage over time into direct damage and ensure damage hits before snare is applied to avoid self-canceling. Upgrade this spell through tier 8. Retain all other stats, cool down, recovery, and cast time.Just give us a t8 version of this spell, and make the snare last the duration"Unbreakable", will give us 1 more utility/"Oh no" spell. Plot line_: Remove Epic Immunity and lower effectiveness for epic mobs. Example: “If target is epic stun lasts 2 seconds, 1 second, then target becomes Immune”.Keep the epic immunity "we arent chanters" Dumb fire pets_: Remove hate burst on termination. Apply burst hate evenly over the duration. Lower cast time by 50%. Lower recast time by 20%. Swarm and Disturbance.Give us a aa under shadows to make them ae immune, and lower cast time on swarm and disturbance by 1 sec. Hate on dumbfire pets isnt a issue leave that alone.Bats line_: Lower cast time to 1 second and increase recast to 13 seconds. Increase defense reduction by 50% or damage tick by 50%. I would like to see the debuff increased and the duration increased lets say to 5 min, so it could be more of a perma dot/debuff than a dmg spell in our rotation "set it and forget it" like other debuffsLife transfer line_: Double damage received and heal amount. Or apply stats from Drain line_ but instead of healing the Necro “Heals target’s target”. (in this case it would share the cool down of the Drain line_) This spell is fine leave it aloneHearts line_(Shards Applicable): Increase number summoned to 4. Increase power regained by 100% and health cost by 50%. Spell is fine leave it alone, just add the ability that when I recast Group/Raid hearts it overwrites the ones people currenty have IE recharges themFear line_: Add hate reduction equivalent to Magic Leash AA for the Necro. Remove epic Immunity for hate reduction but allow fear Immunity. Remove from Tainted Heals proc list Spell is fine no changes needed to our fear Soul Siphon_: Remove 1/6 chance and replace with 50% chance to add a missing soul instead. Lower recast of Soul Spells by 50% to allow stacking of souls. Add hate gain to Unstoppable Soul and Hate reduction to Flayers Soul. Change Servile Soul to Undead Army “Summon all Necro standard pets for duration” Double damage of Pestilent Soul AE. Would like to see it a 100% return of a missing spell if it was on a mob when it died, And the only spells I would guess that are used atm by 90% of necro's would be Unstoppable sould "pre Lifeburn" and Flayers Soul "pre Manaburn".Change all the others to useable buff's like them 2, IE, Lich proc on target, Ae immunity on target, FD on target, and Keep the heal but tripple its effectiveness. Vampirism_: Add “Target receives Immunity to non-direct AE damage, this effect grants a total of 1 trigger of the spell” Should add a bit of Utility to a spell that in current content does not offer any. Just needs to be buffed a bit and remove the double fail on it, make it like broodlings, ae immune, and last the durration, and buff its DMG/Heal by 20-30% "without the set bonus" Hordes_: Remove corpse requirement Increase health cost per tick by 50% and reduce recast to 8 minutes. Leave it alone, other than reduction in recast time Bulwark line_: Change hate proc from damage received to on successful attack. Leave it aloneAll Pets_: (Summoner)All pets need to benefit from Upgraded stats based on gear for both the Necro and the Conjuror.Apply a blanket increase to Spell/CA/Melee (Crits and Damage) to Summoner pets at 10-30% (AD1 to M1) ratio based on Summoner Spell Damage and Spell Crits. Make this a buff that requires con slot Or add as an AA option to Shadows. This should be our last option in shadows, just a buff to transfer 20-30% of all summoner stats to pet HP/Power/Crits/Spell dmg/Recast/Reuse/Crit reduction Scout pet_:Mage Pet_:Tank Pet_:Leave all t8 pets alone, just give them the ability to be active and when you cast Ooze crawler they absorb it and get that debuff, so in t7 its one or the other and in t8 you get your pet with that ability. "buff"Ooze Pet_: Change to additional summon rather than replacement summon. Or change to curse added to current pet ability bar. Yep if current T8 pet is cast "Including myth" and you cast ooze crawler it becomes a buff on the petAnimist Bond_: Change to Convert Power into Damage over time. 50 power for 200 damage every 2.5 seconds or until canceled.Leave it aloneEmpower Servant_: Change to Soul Siphon proc. Allow chance to siphon power on any successful spell attack. Leave it aloneUnflinching Servant_: Change to Health Siphon proc. Allow chance to siphon health on any successful melee attack. Leave it aloneBlood Pact_: Allow Blood Pact to protect temporary pets as well as primary pets from all non-direct AE damage (Including melee based AE, in some cases melee based AE does not get blocked) Leave it alone, see my fix for dumbfire pets ^^^Lifeburn_: Adjust damage to 10x total health and terminate at total health spent (regardless of heals 10k total health procs 100k damage and stops) and reduce recast time to 4 minutes. 10% total health (not base health) x 10 every second for 10 seconds. Focus LifeburnBurn DMG is still based on the necromancers total hp at time of casting.Takes HP from all group members within AE range of the necromancer. Add 1 tick to the DOT for each member that joined in the burn, max of 15 ticks, and if the mob dies while being Lifeburned return all HP lost while LB was up and grant a buff to all members that were part of that burn. "Fury of the Undead" 100% lich proc on all spell/CA dmg for 30 sec.ORKeep that idea more or less the same just change added dot ticks to a increase of HP/DMG so for ever member that joined in, the dmg of the 10 ticks of lifeburn was increased. so 4/1 to 5/1, 6/1 and so on.

Eriol

11-26-2008, 01:58 PM

<cite>Necrodeath79 wrote:</cite><blockquote>All Pets_: (Summoner)All pets need to benefit from Upgraded stats based on gear for both the Necro and the Conjuror.Apply a blanket increase to Spell/CA/Melee (Crits and Damage) to Summoner pets at 10-30% (AD1 to M1) ratio based on Summoner Spell Damage and Spell Crits. Make this a buff that requires con slot Or add as an AA option to Shadows. This should be our last option in shadows, just a buff to transfer 20-30% of all summoner stats to pet HP/Power/Crits/Spell dmg/Recast/Reuse/Crit reduction </blockquote>I agree that most of what the OP proposes is overly-optimistic, but this is where I disagree with you, and agree with the OP: this ability should NEVER have been integrated into gear. It was 100% the WRONG design decision to add pet-enhancers on to gear, they should have had all of our EXISTING stats scale onto our pets to make them better. This should be BUILT-IN to the game, and NOT something we have to "buy" to get. ESSENTIAL MECHANICS SHOULD NOT BE BOUGHT VIA AAs!!! This is something that I mentioned BEFORE we got AAs in KoS days, and I reiterate here. This goes back to EQ1 where "/pet hold" was ESSENTIAL, yet was an AA and not built-in. Game mechanics via AAs are ALWAYS BAD!Right now we're essentially gimped unless we get the EXACT right summoner-focused gear. Our "usable gear" went down by 2/3 with this expansion, as unless we get pet-specific gear, we're gimped. Heck, we're gimped already, since if a pet does 25% of our damage (let's say) and we get something that gives US 4% crit, that's WORSE than any other mage getting the SAME piece of gear, since it only affects 3/4 of our damage spells, not 100% of them (it's worse than that, but I'll get to that later). UNLESS there's also pet-affecting stats... but the problem is that if there were, then to be a "balanced" item then the item would have 3% (or less) crit because we got "something else." Now it's not REALLY something else, as it's just bringing us back up to where we were, but we're still worse off because of the "extra nerf" on the gear.It's essentially the same as what happens to the crusaders, where if they get an item that has spell AND combat art damage, it's only as good as something that has combat art damage if a scout or other fighter got it, as 100% of those other class' abilities are combat arts, whereas it's split for crusaders. They really shouldn't have +spell and +combat art seperate, it should be one stat called "+ ability damage" and "+ ability crit" and not seperated.But our problem is the same because of splitting between our pet and ourselves. In fact, it's even worse due to our "breathe on them and they die" swarm pets, which aren't affected by our +spell damage and crits. I HOPE the new pet-stats affect them, but I dunno if they do. But either way, they're INFERIOR to DoTs in every way, and I wish they were COMPLETELY replaced with DoTs. That'd make me happy.But in summary, pet-stats on gear is the WRONG SOLUTION as it REDUCES the amount of gear that we "really want" by 2/3 at least (if not more) since 4/6 mage classes can use all "normal" stuff while we are stuck ONLY with things made SPECIFICALLY for summoners... we probably lose out on the cross mage/priest stuff too, so it's probably even worse than 2/3 less, and it MAINTAINS that practically all gear is "pre-nerfed" for us, since if something had 10% crit and was "Balanced" with that stat, anything with pet-affecting stats will have LESS of the "normal" stats, and some pet ones, STILL leaving us behind the curve on stats.This expansion (and approach to "balance" ) has destroyed my faith in that the designers know how to balance pet classes. RoK shook my faith with the prevalence of +spell damage items that did NOT affect summoners, and thus brought us WAY behind the curve of power. And they're only perpetuating their mistake with pet-stat items, so I'm seriously considering abandoning my main character that I've had since launch, and played a necro since ORIGINAL beta. It's THAT BAD!

Xil

11-26-2008, 02:19 PM

Core Spells Continued:Soul Siphon_: This line is a wonderful example of how our whole archetype is viewed compared to other archetypes. It’s useful only under specific circumstances, and even then only marginally. And the refresh and recast (because it’s death dependant) make it even more situational. Possible solutions include removing 1/6 chance in favor of a flat 50% chance to add a missing soul. This would ensure the situational use of the souls and protect their availability as well.Lower recast of Soul Spells by 50% to allow stacking of souls. This would allow for a more effective deployment of situational use and greatly increase the value of this line to Necro in all content solo/group/raid.Add hate gain to Unstoppable Soul and Hate reduction to Flayers Soul. Currently the effects of these spells is ignored partly in fact due to their utility not being functional in a group or raid environment for their intended targets. Unstoppable Soul is generally only used to bolster Lifeburn and Flayers Soul is generally only used to bolster Manaburn. Other than these two limited functions they have no practical application.Change Servile Soul to Undead Army “Summon all Necro standard pets for duration” A single limited dumbfire (with less than appealing damage) combined with an extremely situational availability make this one all but forgotten to most if not all Necro. However bringing this in line with the Conjy spell Communion and allowing the Necro to summon all of it’s primary pets at once would bring this spell back up into regular circulation without completely overpowering it.Double damage of Pestilent Soul AE. For the trouble this spell is simply not worth casting. It did not scale properly and it’s damage never truly matched it’s availability to begin with. I needs a large increase in damage to be an effective tool to the Necro.Greatly increase healing of Soothing Soul. The healing effects of this spell even Mastered at tier 8 make it another lost spell to the Necro class in general. It simply does not offer healing potential comparable to it’s availability.Change all spells to Tagetable Buffs equivilent to sharing Necro self Utility (aka FD, Lich, AE immune) And blanket solution to all of these issues would be to replace the Soul Siphon line entirely with self only Utilities and make them ally target. This would give the Necro a moderate amount of Utility that could not be reproduced by other classes in a group or Raid setting) Vampirism_: The application of this spell in current content is completely counter productive. Between AE, Riposte, Intercede, Soul Wards, and scripted Agro there is just no place in a group or raid setting to put this Orb that it will do anything but poof instantly do to damage taken to the target. Possible solutions to this issue include:Add “Target receives Immunity to non-direct AE damage, this effect grants a total of 1 trigger of the spell” This should add a bit of Utility to a spell that in current content does not offer any as well as offer the group or raid Utility that cannot be reproduced by any other DPS class. It would be a highly effective deployment of, what is supposed to be, a major tool in the Necro arsenal but has been completely rendered useless by current content.Make orb AE immune, and last the durration, and buff its DMG/Heal by 20-30% "without the set bonus" This would also allow for the intended Utility of the spell to take effect and remain useful enough to spend time casting. Hordes_: This one overall is a great deployment and a fantastic deployment accept one thing. Have any of you ever seen a corpse last more than a few seconds? I know I haven’t. Not even one corpse let alone the half dozen it would take to fully make use of this spell. It already drains our Life to use it. Adding a corpse requirement to fast paced combat that forced the removal of corpses seem kind of redundant.Possible Solutions include removing the corpse requirement to allow this spell full damage potential and justify its massive cooldown time and/or increase health cost per tick by 50% and reduce recast to 8 minutes. This spell offers a solid amount of damage to the Necro but the damage currently presented once again does not warrant a 15 minute cooldown. Bulwark line_: This spell while effective leads us back to why SK had so much trouble in RoK. It makes the pet too reliant on taking damage and not reliant enough of dealing damage and that makes for an extremely frustrating agro management experience all around. Instead of continuing to increase the hate a more simple solution would be to alter the way hate is gained. The solution change hate proc from damage received to on successful attack and this will completely eliminate the problems most Necro (between 30 and 80) have been reporting with agro control, or lack there of.

Eriol

11-26-2008, 02:40 PM

I already responded to you in PM, but the basics for everybody else is this: if you want an omnibus "solutions" post, great, but discussions below the initial post (with periodic updates above) is better IMO than two threads where solutions and discussions are seperated. But the OP must be updated even when opinions differ from whomever crafts the OP.And beyond that, for my post specifically, I DID post solutions in addition to complaints. Sure there was editorializing too, but considering that your OP was completely deviod of the WHY behind your changes, some editorializing is needed too.Edit: for justifying changes, you need to show why the status quo is WRONG, not only why your changes are good. Which means proving that the developers are wrong, as they're the ones who implemented the current situation.

Xil

11-26-2008, 03:40 PM

Primary PetsScout pet_: This pet is far too limited in HP to be useful in current AE intensive content effectively removing 1/3 of the DPS potential of any Necro specd for it. Although there is an AA that allows for resurrection the time it takes to recast the pet and the repeated loss of it result in even larger reduction in Necro DPS. Reviving the Scout simply means it gets another chance to die and then the cooldown prevents further revival. As well these pets burn through their power at an alarming rate further limiting the Necro where it’s archetype is intended to shine above all others, the Long fight. These pets also offer very low DPS and absolutely no Utility in a Raid setting and for a class dependant on pets in a raid setting it would only make sense that those Pets offer a bit of Utility to the other members of the raid. Simple solutions to these problems include: Double total Health increase total power by 50% and add Melee Mitigation debuff, similar to Dispatched at 20% value (AD1-M1 comparable), to ability bar at position 1. Use immunity to stop use, similar to Lifeburn Immunity, so multiple summoners using same class pet can make use of this ability in a raid or group situation. Mage Pet_: This pet is far too limited in HP to be useful in current AE intensive content effectively removing 1/3 of the DPS potential of any Necro specd for it. Although by using Bloodpact to protect it this pet is completely reliant on AA’s to be effective already. Requiring even more AA’s just to keep it alive seems a bit outrageous.As well these pets burn through their power at an alarming rate further limiting the Necro where it’s archetype is intended to shine above all others, the Long fight. These pets also offer very low DPS and absolutely no Utility in a Raid setting and for a class dependant on pets in a raid setting it would only make sense that those Pets offer a bit of Utility to the other members of the raid.Solutions to these problems include: Double total Health increase total power by 50% and add All Magical Damage Mitigation debuff, similar to dispatched at 20% value (AD1-M1 comparable and M4 for Mythical), to ability bar at position 1. Use immunity to stop use, similar to Lifeburn Immunity, so multiple summoners using same class pet can make use of this ability in a raid or group situation. Tank Pet_: Our soloing companion and the main focus of our solo experience has certainly let himself go. A staggeringly low DPS output combined with a complete reliance on multiple branches of AA to be effective for even a single realm of play (solo ONLY), and that is added to the Necro’s reliance on a completely different set of gear for soloing and grouping and you have a pet in sorry condition indeed.Possible solutions to these problems include duel wield for offensive stance for increased base Damage per Second. 75% increase should cover the difference and make this pet a bit more multi-functional. As well as increase in-combat Power Regeneration while in Offensive stance. This pet runs out of Power the fastest, offers the least Utility, and does less DPS than our dumbfire pets. It really needs to be looked at seriously in future enhancements to this archetype.

Xil

11-27-2008, 05:10 AM

AA'sOoze Pet_: This pet absolutely should not be a primary pet. The Utility offered in no way compares to the DPS lost and combined with an inability to keep this pet alive against current content make this AA in general a waste of points.Possible solutions include: Change to additional summon rather than replacement summon, or change to curse added to current primary pet ability bar. Animist Bond_: This AA serves not practical purpose to Summoners in any mode of content. Using this AA while soloing simply allows the Tank pet to absorb 1 to 2 more hits before draining it’s power completely and rendering it useless. A complete rework of this AA function seems the only viable solution.A possible rework of this AA could be to Convert Power into Damage over time. 50 power for 200 damage every 2.5 seconds or until canceled. This would allow the tank pet to make use of it’s power pool while soloing as well as allow Scout and Mage pets to offer a source of Burst Damage while grouping and Raiding to finish off a mob or simply to quickly eliminate an add. Empower Servant_: While the theory is sound on this one this AA is also basically fluff to most if not all Summoners. Using less power and converting that power to a heal at the end of a fight is fruitless. These pets have so little HP that they regen to full life within moments of leaving combat anyway. And these pets should not need to conserve power. They should be designed to last as long in combat as their masters.To make this AA useful change to Soul Siphon proc. Allow chance to siphon power on any successful spell attack. This would allow the pet to more easily keep up with their master on power conservation and maintain a steady supply of DPS in the process. Unflinching Servant_: This AA offers a soloing necro absolutely nothing. Stoping the CA’s of the Tank pet render it useless for agro control and in 99% of all encounters these detrimental effects are simply a non-issue for the pet itself. Once applied to the pet these effects are routinely applied to the master as well so it really serves us no purpose. And non-direct area effect immunity? Seriously… at what point should the tank pet not be targeted directly when a mob casts an AE? This AA is fluff, poorly design poorly implemented and a waste of AA points entirely.A rework of this AA that would make it useful to soloing Necro’s would be change to Health Siphon proc. Allow chance to siphon health on any successful melee attack. Changing this to a passive chance to proc drain life would not only get necro’s spending points on it again but also give the Tank pet slightly more agro control with an increase in overall DPS. Blood Pact_: This AA is sound in application and in deployment although it could be used to remedy another serious issue for Necro in particular. All summons could benefit from this AE immunity not simply primary pets. It would solve the issues with dumbfire pets while completely maintaining the original intent and integrity of the dumbfire mechanic. Solution allow Blood Pact to protect temporary pets as well as primary pets from all non-direct AE damage (Including melee based AE, in some cases melee based AE does not get blocked) Lifeburn_: The Necro DPS button… Now in theory this is extremely sound and effective as well (in some limited cases) in practical application. However the use of this spell does not offer Necro a large enough boost in DPS to warrant the massive amount of group/raid assistance required to fully make use of it. It simply brings the Necro up to a comparable level with other mages in Damage output once every 5 minutes when instead it should place them well above the other Mage classes once every 5 Minutes to warrant it’s limited use and extremely group/raid dependant use. A couple of possible solutions to this problem include lowering Necro dependence on the group or raid to effectively use this spell and allowing them to use it more often, and/or allowing this spell to be Focused either by the Mythical Epic or an end-line AA that will greatly increase the DPS of the entire group the Necro is in.Specific solutions include adjusting damage to 10x total health and terminate at total health spent (regardless of heals 10k total health procs 100k damage and stops) and reduce recast time to 4 minutes. 10% total health (not base health) x 10 every second for 10 seconds. This would allow the Necro to make full use of the spell with only moderate attention from the healers instead of requiring extremely focused attention from the healers to simply make this spell worth the long cast time. When boiled down to effectiveness this spell falls GREATLY short of it’s intended application. To warrant a 5 minute cooldown and a cast time only rivaled by primary pets, it should produce much more dramatic results. The simple solution would be to reduce its cast time by a moderate amount and remove the excessive dependence on group/raid allies at the cost of a decrease in over all potential. When properly executed in a raid situation this spell can and will produce 200,000 damage. But its dependence on the other members of the raid is so great and it’s use so limited that it’s just not valuable enough to focus on.

Supergnom

11-28-2008, 09:12 AM

Xil

11-28-2008, 06:43 PM

<cite>Supergnom@Innovation wrote:</cite><blockquote>AA'sOoze Pet_: change to summon dumbfire TSO AA endskill: permenent aoe immunity for all dumbfires. Would also apply to vampirism.Unfortunatley this would only solve 1 half of the double fail issue.. the Orb terminates when the target of the spell takes damage as well. Boost vampirism damage. Primary Pets: our mythical renders the scout pet useless - change effect to transform current pet into mythical version. Not only a mage but also a proper scout and tank pet. May even scale with original spell quality, i.e. ad3 scout will become ad3 myth versionRight now there's no use for mirrors - one pet to rule them all. (This is quite an interesting suggestion... Maybe instead of a summoned pet the Mythical could cause our current primary pet to be possesed and become a mythical version of itself? Good Stuff) Remove beneficial spell mechanism from our lifedrain spells! They are hostile spells and should get the benefit of all our crit%! Can we get some more detail on this? Hearts line_(Shards Applicable): useless 99% of the time, both in raids and groups. Add damage modifier so people will actually use them, e.g. +10% Not a bad idea add a temp Damage Mod to heart useWe don't dps like wizzy or assassin, we're told necros should be in line with rogues - that and the ooze dumbfire would be proper utility. </blockquote>

Eriol

11-28-2008, 10:00 PM

<cite>Xil wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Supergnom@Innovation wrote:</cite><blockquote>Primary Pets: our mythical renders the scout pet useless - change effect to transform current pet into mythical version. Not only a mage but also a proper scout and tank pet. May even scale with original spell quality, i.e. ad3 scout will become ad3 myth versionRight now there's no use for mirrors - one pet to rule them all. (This is quite an interesting suggestion... Maybe instead of a summoned pet the Mythical could cause our current primary pet to be possesed and become a mythical version of itself? Good Stuff)</blockquote></blockquote>That's actually somewhat the idea that SOE took with EQ1 when they introduced the "Epic 1.5/2.0" items, in that they affected whatever you used, instead of giving you a new epic pet. Think of it kind of like Plane Shift that Conjie's get, in that it "improves" whatever pet is out at the time. Do a similar thing with epics/mythicals where it is useful no matter what you're using. It would help it scale better with a level increase as well.

Xil

11-30-2008, 05:41 AM

<cite>Eriol wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xil wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Supergnom@Innovation wrote:</cite><blockquote>Primary Pets: our mythical renders the scout pet useless - change effect to transform current pet into mythical version. Not only a mage but also a proper scout and tank pet. May even scale with original spell quality, i.e. ad3 scout will become ad3 myth versionRight now there's no use for mirrors - one pet to rule them all. (This is quite an interesting suggestion... Maybe instead of a summoned pet the Mythical could cause our current primary pet to be possesed and become a mythical version of itself? Good Stuff)</blockquote></blockquote>That's actually somewhat the idea that SOE took with EQ1 when they introduced the "Epic 1.5/2.0" items, in that they affected whatever you used, instead of giving you a new epic pet. Think of it kind of like Plane Shift that Conjie's get, in that it "improves" whatever pet is out at the time. Do a similar thing with epics/mythicals where it is useful no matter what you're using. It would help it scale better with a level increase as well.</blockquote>Would definatley make more sense and give Necro a bit more variety. Having to spec entirely Mage and only Mage once you get the Mythical because nothing else compares(even for soloing) is kinda redundant. Although so is adding a corpse requirement to a spell we can only use once every 15 minutes in a fast paced combat game where corpses are not left to rot but vanish instantly upon looting....Hopefully we'll see a fix that focuses on removing the cookie cutter mold Necro and Conjuror are forced into. I'd much rather see Mythical Summoners using all 3 pets because each one offers a different utility. And with the New AA to store a pet for later use this kind of mechanic makes even more sense.

Necrodeath79

11-30-2008, 07:13 PM

Only one change needs to be made to give us utility for raids/groups, make the Ooze crawler a buff for t8 pets.When cast on a t7 pet have it still be a stand alone pet.As far as dps go's if you get the gear you can do more then enough to be a asset on raids and in groups.pest

Xil

12-03-2008, 09:07 PM

<cite>Necrodeath79 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Only one change needs to be made to give us utility for raids/groups, make the Ooze crawler a buff for t8 pets.When cast on a t7 pet have it still be a stand alone pet.As far as dps go's if you get the gear you can do more then enough to be a asset on raids and in groups.pest</blockquote>I think that's a big part of the problem though. You have to have the absolute best gear and cookie cutter AA's to even remotley compare to the other DPS classes. The base functions of the class are the main issue and repairing them with gear and AA's just makes the problem of scaling bigger.The ooze pet is a definate fix that should be made but that still leaves us with the disadvantage of stats advancment that our pets don't share and a lack of burst or sustained DPS in an ever more fast paced combat environment.All the solutions offered here are ways to improve the base functions of out class rather than trying to patch over a broken system with addons.

Sabutai

12-05-2008, 12:53 AM

<cite>Xil wrote:</cite><blockquote> <hr /> Spells that need attention: Darkness line_: Combine total damage over time into direct damage and ensure damage hits before snare is applied to avoid self-canceling. Upgrade this spell through tier 8. Retain all other stats, cool down, recovery, and cast time. Plot line_: - No, we don't need an epic stunRemove Epic Immunity and lower effectiveness for epic mobs. Example: “If target is epic stun lasts 2 seconds, 1 second, then target becomes Immune”. Dumb fire pets_: Just remove the actual pets and make them dots again all the other stuff would just make it overpoweredRemove hate burst on termination. Apply burst hate evenly over the duration. Lower cast time by 50%. Lower recast time by 20%. Swarm and Disturbance.Add Shadows AA that applies AE Immunity to all Temp pets.Replace Dumbfires with Damage over Time Spells. Bats line_: Lower cast time to 1 second and increase recast to 13 seconds. Increase defense reduction by 50% or damage tick by 50%. Life transfer line_: We aren't healers, leave this aloneDouble damage received and heal amount. Or apply stats from Drain line_ but instead of healing the Necro “Heals target’s target”. (in this case it would share the cool down of the Drain line_) Hearts line_(Shards Applicable): Increase number summoned to 4. - How would this help the spell line?Increase power regained by 100% and health cost by 50%. - So you want it to be more costly to use for something nobody needs anyways?Allow recast to overwrite previous cast with new hearts (tier dependant AD1-M1)Add Temp Damage Mod to Heart Use to encourage use, suggested value 10% increase Spell and CA Fear line_: Add hate reduction equivalent to Magic Leash AA for the Necro. Remove epic Immunity for hate reduction but allow fear Immunity. Remove from Tainted Heals proc list Soul Siphon_: Remove 1/6 chance and replace with 50% chance to add a missing soul instead. Lower recast of Soul Spells by 50% to allow stacking of souls. Add hate gain to Unstoppable Soul and Hate reduction to Flayers Soul. Change Servile Soul to Undead Army “Summon all Necro standard pets for duration” Double damage of Pestilent Soul AE.Greatly increase healing of Soothing SoulChange all spells to Tagetable Buffs equivilent to sharing Necro self Utility (aka FD, Lich, AE immune) Vampirism_: Add “Target receives Immunity to non-direct AE damage, this effect grants a total of 1 trigger of the spell” Should add a bit of Utility to a spell that in current content does not offer any.Make orb AE immune, and last the durration, and buff its DMG/Heal by 20-30% "without the set bonus" - This is the only thing that will fix this spell Hordes_: Remove corpse requirement Increase health cost per tick by 50% and reduce recast to 8 minutes. Bulwark line_: Change hate proc from damage received to on successful attack. <hr /> Pets need attention too: (Applicable to Conj pets of same class)All Pets_: (Summoner)All pets need to benefit from Upgraded stats based on gear for both the Necro and the Conjuror.Apply a blanket increase to Spell/CA/Melee (Crits and Damage) to Summoner pets at 10-30% (AD1 to M1) ratio based on Summoner Spell Damage and Spell Crits. Make this a buff that requires con slot Or add as an AA option to Shadows. Change Mythical summon to Vazzaele's Possesion and allow the effect to target current primary pet and transform them into Master 4 version of themself (Similar effect for Conjuror Mythical) !!! Scout pet_: Double total Health increase total power by 50%. Add Melee Mitigation debuff, similar to Dispatched at 20% value (AD1-M1 comparable), to ability bar at position 1. Use immunity to stop use, similar to Lifeburn Immunity, so multiple summoners using same class pet can make use of this ability in a raid or group situation. Mage Pet_: Double total Health increase total power by 50%. Add All Magical Damage Mitigation debuff, similar to dispatched at 20% value (AD1-M1 comparable and M4 for Mythical), to ability bar at position 1. Use immunity to stop use, similar to Lifeburn Immunity, so multiple summoners using same class pet can make use of this ability in a raid or group situation. - No, no and more no. The disease debuff is dumb enough already I don't want the pet to determine when or if a debuff lands. Tank Pet_: Add duel wield for offensive stance. Increase base Damage per Second while dual wielding by 75%. Increase in-combat Power Regeneration while in Offensive stance. <hr />All 3 pets don't need double HP, just increase its ability to mitigate damage instead of making them wet paper bags. AAs that need attention:Ooze Pet_: Change to additional summon rather than replacement summon. - NoOr change to curse added to current pet ability bar. - This is the only option to make an endline ability useful as the resist rate of it vs t8 mobs is ridiculous based on that they never increased the spell level. Animist Bond_: Change to Convert Power into Damage over time. 50 power for 200 damage every 2.5 seconds or until canceled. Empower Servant_: Change to Soul Siphon proc. Allow chance to siphon power on any successful spell attack. Unflinching Servant_: Change to Health Siphon proc. Allow chance to siphon health on any successful melee attack. Blood Pact_: Allow Blood Pact to protect temporary pets as well as primary pets from all non-direct AE damage (Including melee based AE, in some cases melee based AE does not get blocked) Lifeburn_: Adjust damage to 10x total health and terminate at total health spent (regardless of heals 10k total health procs 100k damage and stops) and reduce recast time to 4 minutes. 10% total health (not base health) x 10 every second for 10 seconds.Add AA for Focus LifeBurn that applies to the entire group. - Need to add that reuse gear needs to effect this<hr /> Misc. Suggestions Group/Ally "Fury of the Undead" 100% lich proc on all spell/CA dmg for 30 sec. - Since we have no group utility at all just modify this to have a proc rate and make it a buff to place on people. <hr /> Please be sure that all discussion in this thread remains constructive. I would ask that this thread be moderated to avoid argumentative and non-constructive posts.</blockquote>

Necrodeath79

12-05-2008, 07:41 AM

Welcome back to the forums sabutai, nice to see ya back.And Im totaly with ya on wanting a fix for the class, that does not make us so OP that they unleash the nerf bat.ALso Im sure you havent cast the ooze crawler post TSO and if you havent, its a lvl 80 pet now, BUT it still has way too Few HP/resists.Pest

JmacF

12-10-2008, 05:20 AM

<cite>Xil wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eriol wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xil wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Supergnom@Innovation wrote:</cite><blockquote>Primary Pets: our mythical renders the scout pet useless - change effect to transform current pet into mythical version. Not only a mage but also a proper scout and tank pet. May even scale with original spell quality, i.e. ad3 scout will become ad3 myth versionRight now there's no use for mirrors - one pet to rule them all. (This is quite an interesting suggestion... Maybe instead of a summoned pet the Mythical could cause our current primary pet to be possesed and become a mythical version of itself? Good Stuff)</blockquote></blockquote>That's actually somewhat the idea that SOE took with EQ1 when they introduced the "Epic 1.5/2.0" items, in that they affected whatever you used, instead of giving you a new epic pet. Think of it kind of like Plane Shift that Conjie's get, in that it "improves" whatever pet is out at the time. Do a similar thing with epics/mythicals where it is useful no matter what you're using. It would help it scale better with a level increase as well.</blockquote>Would definatley make more sense and give Necro a bit more variety. Having to spec entirely Mage and only Mage once you get the Mythical because nothing else compares(even for soloing) is kinda redundant. Although so is adding a corpse requirement to a spell we can only use once every 15 minutes in a fast paced combat game where corpses are not left to rot but vanish instantly upon looting....Hopefully we'll see a fix that focuses on removing the cookie cutter mold Necro and Conjuror are forced into. I'd much rather see Mythical Summoners using all 3 pets because each one offers a different utility. And with the New AA to store a pet for later use this kind of mechanic makes even more sense.</blockquote>No doubt. Be nice to be able to cast a master 4 of my mage/scout/ tank. One thing i want to add is that the AA that stores the pet, when you release the new pet it should automatically RESCUE the necro. This AA currently does nothing for me soloing. Currently when pet dies, the mob is on top of me and the master'd tank in storage can't pull aggro off. me

Xil

12-11-2008, 05:36 PM

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xil wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eriol wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xil wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Supergnom@Innovation wrote:</cite><blockquote>Primary Pets: our mythical renders the scout pet useless - change effect to transform current pet into mythical version. Not only a mage but also a proper scout and tank pet. May even scale with original spell quality, i.e. ad3 scout will become ad3 myth versionRight now there's no use for mirrors - one pet to rule them all. (This is quite an interesting suggestion... Maybe instead of a summoned pet the Mythical could cause our current primary pet to be possesed and become a mythical version of itself? Good Stuff)</blockquote></blockquote>That's actually somewhat the idea that SOE took with EQ1 when they introduced the "Epic 1.5/2.0" items, in that they affected whatever you used, instead of giving you a new epic pet. Think of it kind of like Plane Shift that Conjie's get, in that it "improves" whatever pet is out at the time. Do a similar thing with epics/mythicals where it is useful no matter what you're using. It would help it scale better with a level increase as well.</blockquote>Would definatley make more sense and give Necro a bit more variety. Having to spec entirely Mage and only Mage once you get the Mythical because nothing else compares(even for soloing) is kinda redundant. Although so is adding a corpse requirement to a spell we can only use once every 15 minutes in a fast paced combat game where corpses are not left to rot but vanish instantly upon looting....Hopefully we'll see a fix that focuses on removing the cookie cutter mold Necro and Conjuror are forced into. I'd much rather see Mythical Summoners using all 3 pets because each one offers a different utility. And with the New AA to store a pet for later use this kind of mechanic makes even more sense.</blockquote>No doubt. Be nice to be able to cast a master 4 of my mage/scout/ tank. One thing i want to add is that the AA that stores the pet, when you release the new pet it should automatically RESCUE the necro. This AA currently does nothing for me soloing. Currently when pet dies, the mob is on top of me and the master'd tank in storage can't pull aggro off. me</blockquote>Yeah, I don't think it's meant as a save for soloing though. I think it's meant as a bandaid to the fact that our DPS pets still have so few HP's that they get one shot every time a mob in a group or raid breaths in their general direction.What you can do though is use Bewilderment (end of the mage line) to snap the agro back to your saved pet, and or FD to get your pet back to position 1.

skirge66

12-15-2008, 07:52 AM

I hardly ever post here, but just wanted to say that this seems like a well written thread. It really seems a shame that it hasn't been validated with a dev comment or made it to sticky status. As a long time necro it becomes very discouraging to see the state of our class, being undesired in any raid capacity, and seldom wanted in a group because of the fact that we bring sub par DPS, and nearly nothing for utility, and require more than average attention from the rest of the group.So thank you Xil for starting this thread, and thank you to all of you more knowledgable than myself for keeping these discussions professional and on point. Here's to hoping that someone important is watching, as I patiently wait for a better day.I think one thing that could help us on a group standpoint is maybe making our dots shorter in duration but hitting harder to better frontload our damage, to make us more useful in a short duration fight.

Necrodeath79

12-15-2008, 09:43 AM

I think one thing that could help us on a group standpoint is maybe making our dots shorter in duration but hitting harder to better frontload our damage, to make us more useful in a short duration fightPlease no, I feel I spam enough as it is, and changing our spell durations would require changing recasts and cast times.TBO now that I have my new aa and some of the new gear I dont feel that bad off, I just want 1 good utility spell.

Firecracker

12-15-2008, 11:50 AM

I am not sure if this was mention but also another thing I have been thinking about is how our dumbfires pets go splat within secs of casting so, that made think of ways to help this for I don't see a dev changing these to be dots but how about in the EoF aa necro tree where we can add points to improve thier recast timers? (for I am not sure what it improves for I do have tendency to forget the little things like that.) I was thinking that is where the dev can also add 3 secs or 5 aoe imunity to them with each point spent? It's so sad to see my little pets go splat all time that I have gotten in the habit of even not bothering to cast them because of how fast they go down that even in group that others seen this. How is it the dev who I thought played don't see this if he ever groups with a summoner? and even year later why has there been no changes to the summoners? other then the conj getting cooler looking mage pet.Anyways even after he does 2.0 fighter round 2, I don't see us being next for he's not ever said either so most likely some other classes will get fixed before us summoners do because we must be the ugly red headed step child that no one wants to deal with or someone in the necro communtiy has really [Removed for Content] him off that he is making sure we suffer so who ever you are please say your sorry! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> lol

Xil

12-15-2008, 06:07 PM

<cite>Necrodeath79 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think one thing that could help us on a group standpoint is maybe making our dots shorter in duration but hitting harder to better frontload our damage, to make us more useful in a short duration fightPlease no, I feel I spam enough as it is, and changing our spell durations would require changing recasts and cast times.TBO now that I have my new aa and some of the new gear I dont feel that bad off, I just want 1 good utility spell.</blockquote>I agree most of our spells are pretty well in line with what they should be but a bit of adjustment to a few of them is needed.Certain filler spells could be adjusted to give us a more versitile casting order for grouping that will allow us some burst damage without making our top end grow. Like Darkness for example. Make that a single direct damage spell with a snare proc instead of a DoT and that would greatly increase our burst DPS potential.To the rest of you. The idea is not to use all of these suggestions but to pick and choose from the list in order to balance Necro for both grouping and raiding using existing mechanics, rather than adding new mechanics, like AA's and Gear that only cover up the problem.Necro can spike EXTREMELY high on a single target. Higher than any other class. But it requires perfect gear, perfect buffs, and perfect support timing (PoTM, Heals, Temp HP Buffs, ect...) And our Spikes only come in once every 3 to 5 minutes. It should be more like 2 to 3 minutes per spike.So technically Necro is already where it needs to be in spike DPS. The challenge will be to adjust Neco DPS so our sustained numbers come up without increasing our spike damage cap very much, and with a lot less support from the group or the raid required.Honestly to do more DPS than any other class a Necro should have the support of a few other classes on a raid. However, they need to be able to sustain a larger amount of static DPS. Right now my Spike DPS is double my sustained DPS. I won't go into the numbers again because that just causes rampant flaming. However, Necro and Conjy should be able to sustain about 3/4 of their spike DPS without major cooldowns in a raid setting with full mage buffs and 50% of their spike DPS without full mage buffs in groups.On the other side of the coin Necro could instead be adjusted to add usefull utility to a group or raid rather than higher sustained numbers. In that way the groups Damage output or Protection output would be adjusted to the point where Necro/Conjy DPS is even with the amount of DPS or Survivability they add to the group or raid. But the problem with this is that the summoner Utility would have to be completely unique and more valuable than an enchanter/bard to be balanced for utility and damage output.Solutions that serve either of these purposes without a fundemental change in class design are needed. And as many of them as we can muster.Any mechanic can throw new parts on your car until it works again. But a great mechanic can find the loose tensioner on the timing belt and fix not only the immediate problem but all the resulting symptoms without having to go through all those new parts that just cover up the cause. Eventually you gotta fix the root cause or you'll always just end up throwing time and effort away treating symptoms.

Sabutai

12-15-2008, 07:22 PM

<cite>Firecracker@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am not sure if this was mention but also another thing I have been thinking about is how our dumbfires pets go splat within secs of casting so, that made think of ways to help this for I don't see a dev changing these to be dots but how about in the EoF aa necro tree where we can add points to improve thier recast timers? (for I am not sure what it improves for I do have tendency to forget the little things like that.) I was thinking that is where the dev can also add 3 secs or 5 aoe imunity to them with each point spent? It's so sad to see my little pets go splat all time that I have gotten in the habit of even not bothering to cast them because of how fast they go down that even in group that others seen this. How is it the dev who I thought played don't see this if he ever groups with a summoner? and even year later why has there been no changes to the summoners? other then the conj getting cooler looking mage pet.Anyways even after he does 2.0 fighter round 2, I don't see us being next for he's not ever said either so most likely some other classes will get fixed before us summoners do because we must be the ugly red headed step child that no one wants to deal with or someone in the necro communtiy has really [Removed for Content] him off that he is making sure we suffer so who ever you are please say your sorry! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> lol</blockquote>why wouldn't they change dumbfires to dots? That's where they started out, the 'dumbfire' part was just graphical, it was changed because people in PvP couldn't counteract them. Now that you can cure anything, including dumbfires, in PvP the mechanic needs to be changed back. Having a consistent source of dps instead of having a 'maybe' would greatly improve some of our sustainable dps.The major gripe that isn't being looked at is the disparity between summoners and the rest of the mages. RoK completely wrecked the summoner class because it started introducing, in major droves, gear that raised dps to previously unseen numbers. Pretty much anybody questing can get close to 70% crit values and a decent amount of +spell gear. Only problem is that it doesn't effect 100% of a summoners dps like it did other classes. Would be nice to have a developer explain why it would be unbalancing or hard to implement a way to have 100% of our gear stats effect 100% of our spells. Sure we have an inherent bonus by having a '2nd caster' but we also cannot control its casting order, where it stands, whether it stands still, how to avoid hits or AEs, so that balances out. Adding gear that only marginally raises the stats on the pets spells is not helping much, its a bandaid for a bigger problem.What happens when later in the expansion when you actually need that crit mitigation to survive and the summoners pets are again left by the wayside because there isn't enough focus gear to cover that for pets. This bandaid that's been applied will only come back later, or when crit bonus becomes the next big thing. THE only solution I can see is to make the gear or at least a LARGE percentage translate directly to the pet.

Firecracker

12-16-2008, 02:39 AM

<cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Firecracker@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>I have to admit I don't now when they change the dumbfire pets. So you make a vaule point if it was this way before then just maybe it can be changed back but how does this effect PvP? I do know nercos don't have it all that great in pvp either from reading the forums. Then again it may not matter if it effects pvp.You also said the gear plays a part in our problem so none of the gear so far in TSO is not enough that enhances the pets? I know I may be a little dim witted here asking this so explain?As for adding aa points into aoe imunity is not another good option if we can't have them as dots?I do want to say that I was against any aa line builds that are suppose to make us on pare and then have to wait until we have enough aa to do this! ......And even at that, the TSO aa line still didn't fix this problem we have if I am correct? I think our main core spells is what it is needed to fix us, so gear shouldn't be a major factor in why we are being out parse by some who shouldn't be really out parsing us to begin with. anyways my 2c worth.

Sabutai

12-16-2008, 12:37 PM

<cite>Firecracker@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Firecracker@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>I have to admit I don't now when they change the dumbfire pets. So you make a vaule point if it was this way before then just maybe it can be changed back but how does this effect PvP? I do know nercos don't have it all that great in pvp either from reading the forums. Then again it may not matter if it effects pvp.You also said the gear plays a part in our problem so none of the gear so far in TSO is not enough that enhances the pets? I know I may be a little dim witted here asking this so explain?As for adding aa points into aoe imunity is not another good option if we can't have them as dots?I do want to say that I was against any aa line builds that are suppose to make us on pare and then have to wait until we have enough aa to do this! ......And even at that, the TSO aa line still didn't fix this problem we have if I am correct? I think our main core spells is what it is needed to fix us, so gear shouldn't be a major factor in why we are being out parse by some who shouldn't be really out parsing us to begin with. anyways my 2c worth.</blockquote>It effected PvP because essentially summoners could dumbfire people to death and just run around, so they changed it so people could attack the pets. Now though you can just cure it off yourself, which was another change they added a while back.The gear they added in this expansion doesn't work because if you look at it and compare what other pure caster classes get they reduce the overall stats that the caster gets because they are adding more stats to the pet. So in essence they are splitting the effect over the 2. So effectively you have less dps on the necro while slightly increasing the dps of the pet, but its not a 1:1 increase like it is for other classes which is why this type of fix has been a huge problem since the endgear of EoF and all thru RoK.aa points for immunity for pets wouldn't work because they would never add something that would make them completely immune which is what they need to be, and any immunity they gave them would come with the generic if not direct BS which would make it useless anyways, since all the AEs seem to be direct attacks or reposte's.There are also stupid things like the fact our lifetaps split the effectiveness of +spell gear. We also have more pointless end line aa abilities than any other class in the game. Str line, that ability doesn't really work anymore since people were exploiting it. Don't think I've ever seen people use the Sta or Agi end abilities, in fact from testing I don't even think the Agi line works at all. The void pet has been useless since mid-way thru EoF, takes away way too much dps for adding virutally nothing to a raid setting. AA fixes are just bandaid approaches to a much broader problem which was introduced with RoK, our dps didn't scale like it should have with other classes.It also comes back to the point of utility vs dps. Since all of our utility has been effectively taken away with gear and mythicals our dps should be on par with wizards and chanters, but its not. A decently geared chanter can blow away a summoners dps while providing incalculable utility to a raid, while we add nothing more than a dependant spot that can be easily filled by Momo the monkey and not be missed.

Cly

12-31-2008, 02:00 AM

I completely agree with Sabutai, currently there are many reaidforces that do not even have a necro, and that do not look for one either. Also a necro has a hard time finding groups, because in this expansion the mage must do really big dps or be able to mez.Soloing necro is not the best choice, but playable.So I would suggest the following:<ul><li>change the fear spell to a single mez</li><li>change the ooze pet to an additional ability of the other pets as already suggested (and make sure the debuff lands on raid encounters) </li><li>add equipment slots to the pets</li></ul>There are also some spells that need to be looked at (all mentioned in this thread), but the above three little changes would make the necro class an option in groups and raids again.Also it would be very nice if a Dev could actually post something, in what the direction the necro class will be developed this year (or if it is developed at all).Thanks for reading!

Xil

12-31-2008, 03:56 AM

<cite>Clywd wrote:</cite><blockquote>I completely agree with Sabutai, currently there are many reaidforces that do not even have a necro, and that do not look for one either. Also a necro has a hard time finding groups, because in this expansion the mage must do really big dps or be able to mez.Soloing necro is not the best choice, but playable.So I would suggest the following:<ul><li>change the fear spell to a single mez</li><li>change the ooze pet to an additional ability of the other pets as already suggested (and make sure the debuff lands on raid encounters) </li><li>add equipment slots to the pets</li></ul>There are also some spells that need to be looked at (all mentioned in this thread), but the above three little changes would make the necro class an option in groups and raids again.Also it would be very nice if a Dev could actually post something, in what the direction the necro class will be developed this year (or if it is developed at all).Thanks for reading!</blockquote>God I would love to see equipment slots on our pets.But don't be too hard on Necro. Last I checked a few of the highest parsing players in the game are Necro. While it's true that a raid doesn't need a Necro for anything other than DPS (assuming that Necro knows how to DPS) but on the same token raids don't need Assassin either. You can just as easily replace the Assassin with another Brigand as you can replace the Necro with another chanter.I mean really at this point you can raid pretty much anything with 8 SK 4 bard 4 chanter 6 healers a brig and a swash. Maybe even take out another healer and put in a second brigand...But Necro can top the parse if they are played well and geared/specd correctly. (gear includes masters)I think a lot of the problem is Necro is such a complicated class to learn to play well that there is a lot of false information about the class floating around and people get the wrong idea. Kinda like the guide at the top of this forum that suggests using dispersion gear for raiding which effectively destroys any chance a Necro has to DPS...I do think we need to be a lot less dependant on others though for the amount of Utility we bring. We really need either a large boost to Utility or a sustainable (not 5 and 15 minute cooldown) increase in base DPS so the DPS we bring merits our lack of utility.But we'll see who's paying attention. Great call on the equipment slots for pets.I'd like to expand on that further and suggest that out pets recieve archetype based bonuses in the form of looted augments. Something like a set of scout augments, fighter augments, mage augments and allow each pet to be modified with them in some way.Weapons and armor would be fantastic (Imagine visible armor and equipment for pets) but normal player equipment stats wouldn't scale correctly so if they would need to create a new set of equipment for summoner pets they might as well make it functional and specific to summoners in some way.Vanguard had a system similar to this where you would harvest parts of corpses to augment your pet with them. Really cool feature... terrible execution...

skirge66

01-08-2009, 04:01 AM

any sniffs or rumors as to when the summoner rebalance might begin?

Xil

01-08-2009, 07:44 AM

<cite>skirge66 wrote:</cite><blockquote>any sniffs or rumors as to when the summoner rebalance might begin?</blockquote>Unnfortunatley not yet. But they are aware of some of the issues and have stated that they are going to make a balancing change. Plans have not yet been illustrated to us though, other than to say summoners should be in line with swash/brigand as far as what we bring to a group/raid. They said they want to see where the new TSO gear and AA's puts us and go from there for balancing. So we'll see.But for right now we are doing pretty well in group content with TSO gear. Necro and Conjy are both putting up extremely respectable numbers as far as DPS goes as well our Teir 2 shard robe proc for our pets is an exceptional amount of group power regen so long as the pet survives.I really cannot complain about being a Necro in groups at this point other than maybe my DPS pets need about twice as much HP and my sustained DPS should be quite a bit higher without troub/illy buffs.Some of the solutions people have come up with for this list could well address all of the immediate issues still conserning summoners so I'm hoping people will stick with it and keep the suggestions coming.

Naughtesn

01-23-2009, 09:18 PM

<cite>skirge66 wrote:</cite><blockquote>It really seems a shame that it hasn't been validated with a dev comment or made it to sticky status. </blockquote>I got this stickied as of 1/5 - I also wish we would have some red name love. I imagine they have been consumed with the hate chages for now. I just hope they don't move on to equipment scaling after it, and throw some lubbin' our way.

CorpseRun

04-22-2009, 02:45 AM

This the greatest Necro thread ever posted on these forums. Why is there a duplicate sticky when all the info is right here?

Dejaentendu

05-04-2009, 01:31 PM

/bumpI don't understand why SoE hates necromancers so much. We have the least desirable raid utility in the game. Conjurors are next in line, but Call of the Hero is utility that people find useful at least. Hearts are garbage, only 2-3 people ask for them throughout the raid. FD and the ability to revive is about all we have... and wait, can't other classes do that? Please give us a unique utility in this game for the love of Bertoxxulous!

Mew

05-05-2009, 01:35 PM

There are two types of necromancers - raiders and soloers (who also group from time to time). For raiders the biggest issue is the lack of utility and the fact that we are not top dps'ers without a stacked group - mainly its the "utility" issue. For soloer/groupers like myself its the pet abilities that are the issue - especially tank pets. Making us go out and get raid level gear to get our "solo/group" pets up to speed just doesn't make any sense at all. Personally, I tend to fall into the "soloer" catagory (although I do raid with my guild once in awhile - I have my mythical). There was a time when pets put out 40% of necromancer damage. The biggest issue I faced soloing was the pet running out of power while chain pulling. Nowadays, my pets do a lot less than 40% although it is getting better with void shard gear. My point is that I shouldn't need the gear to get my pet's dps % and aggro generation back to where it was before ROK. Also, my own guild's attitude is "we already have a necro signed up for this raid so we don't need you (and to be honest we don't need him either but we had a free slot and no scouts available)."

Gylen9

05-06-2009, 12:24 PM

Lot's of good suggestions in this thread.Here are some additional ideas:<ul><li>Scale our pets by granting them a stat bonus based on the casters stats.All classes improve by gear, as do we. However our pet half is not seeing much improvement through gear upgrades.</li></ul>Solo:I see little improvement needed here.We may not be the greatest, but by far not the worst.Raid / Group utility:Fighter (Tank) Pet:Pet grants all fighter classes in the group on a successful attack:health boostmitigation bonusac bonusMage Pet:Pet grants all mage classes in the group on a successful attack:- mana regen- spell damage bonus- spell crit bonusScout Pet:Pet grants all scout classes in the group on successful attack:- vampiric regen- melee crit bonus- melle famage bonusThis would increase our usefulness in raids / groups without increasing our damage.

Germs666

05-11-2009, 07:56 PM

<cite>Gylen9 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lot's of good suggestions in this thread.Here are some additional ideas:<ul><li>Scale our pets by granting them a stat bonus based on the casters stats.All classes improve by gear, as do we. However our pet half is not seeing much improvement through gear upgrades.</li></ul>Solo:I see little improvement needed here.We may not be the greatest, but by far not the worst.Raid / Group utility:Fighter (Tank) Pet:Pet grants all fighter classes in the group on a successful attack:health boostmitigation bonusac bonusMage Pet:Pet grants all mage classes in the group on a successful attack:- mana regen- spell damage bonus- spell crit bonusScout Pet:Pet grants all scout classes in the group on successful attack:- vampiric regen- melee crit bonus- melle famage bonusThis would increase our usefulness in raids / groups without increasing our damage.</blockquote>This would also give us LESS damage so I'm sure they might actually go for it.Nothing wrong with asking for a damage increase. We sure do need it. I'd be fine with them giving us awesome buffs but make them pet only. Like making ooze crawler a pet buff. Or a buff similar to TC, but for our pet. A crit bonus buff thats mage pet only would also help our damage.This would reward us for keeping our pets alive because it's not an easy task, especially without a pet cure all.There are a number of options/posts but no proposed fixes