SOE, what is the role of berserker? Cuz, its sure not tank [Archive]

Arinwulf

11-25-2008, 02:27 PM

What is the point of the berserker class anymore? We can't get into groups as dps because we are outclassed by all the fingerwagglers and the scouts. And we are not optimized for tanking and its not worth the complaining when we can't stand up to mobs like the guardian. Why don't you just come out and say that the berserker class is useless so people won't waste anymore time on it?Everyother mmog out there has given their heavy armor fighters an option to do damage or to tank, and if you choose damage, you are viable in a group, that is, no other class significantly out damages you.So, any Devs wish to comment on this? Does marginalizing berserkers factor into your plan to cut down on the number of different classes?You guys do a lot of good work in so many ways in creating the milieu, only to bork things up beyond recognition when it comes to class roles.

Junaru

11-25-2008, 02:29 PM

If you were asking about raids I might back you up but for groups? Are you insane? Have you run any of the tSO instance yet? Been to Befallen?

TumpieBrell

11-25-2008, 02:32 PM

Try some of the new TSO instances like Cavern of the Afflicted, or Obelisk of Akzhul. Plenty of linked encounters - you can tank while doing some of the highest dmg in your group.

Yimway

11-25-2008, 02:32 PM

<cite>Arinwulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>What is the point of the berserker class anymore? We can't get into groups as dps because we are outclassed by all the fingerwagglers and the scouts. And we are not optimized for tanking and its not worth the complaining when we can't stand up to mobs like the guardian. Why don't you just come out and say that the berserker class is useless so people won't waste anymore time on it?</blockquote>You do just fine tanking, especially for multiple encounters like we're seeing in some of these instances.What I have to fault many berzerkers for is not having a tank AND dps spec and being able to swap them on there mirror and have the gear hotkeys to switch roles for the evening.

TumpieBrell

11-25-2008, 02:34 PM

Actually it's a lot easier now that our DA aa doesn't require a shield. In a pinch, our DPS spec = use a second sword.But yeah, we could do some great dps specced properly in some of the new instances.

Thunndar316

11-25-2008, 02:41 PM

I think Zerkers are the 2nd best option if you can't find a Guardian. However, I have stated my opinions before and I won't go into it much deeper. Personally I think all fighters should be able to tank a raid with proper gear and skill but SOE obviously wants certain classes to be > others.

Kaberu

11-25-2008, 02:48 PM

I've seen a vast improvement in tanking with my 80 Berserker, most notable against a horde encounter, such as in some of the Befallen zones (for example). Of course there is a little ommission in your post: You actually have to spec for tanking!!The inherent problem with Berserkers (which I'm not specifically saying is your problem) is that the players are so use to speccing for damage, they forget about boosting their defensive abilities. If you want to tank, spec for it. Hybrid and/or damage-for-aggro builds won't cut it unless you have some nice back up in your group.A simple and quick browsing in the Berserker forums on this official site, as well as some community sites, will reveal that some Berserkers are having little-to-no problem tanking TSO zones while dual-wielding, let alone the many doing well with the traditional sword and board. At the very least, I think it's safe to say you are missing something.My personal test was having my ranger friend pound the everliving crap out of me with his ranged attacks while I just used defensive abilities. I easily lasted more than twice as long as I did before the TSO changes and enhancements.The capability is there whether you've reached it or not. My suggestion is to try and mix your spec up, try out different combinations and maybe gear differently. However, if it turns out to be something silly, like your top resist is 40% or your best armor is one or two mastercrafted/legendaries... I reserve the right to laugh a little on the inside.Perhaps you can link your character and list your AA specs?

Xalmat

11-25-2008, 02:58 PM

TSO is the Berserker's expansion to shine for once. They're much preferred over Guardians because of the high amount of AoE content and their higher DPS.

Arinwulf

11-25-2008, 03:01 PM

I don't like tanking to begin with. Burned out tanking as a warrior in EQ1. When EQ2 came out (the reason I bought the bloody game to begin with was because berserkers could really do damage. I figured I would only tank if necessary. Then they nerfed us to uselessness. When I ask to join a group these days, the first thing out of their mouths is, we need you to tank. Tanking is thankless and due to SOE "tuning" anemic for the berserker class. Really, SOE needs to quit screwing around and start eliminating their unwanted classes. bottom line- If there are no roles for berserkers besides tanking, then why have the class? Guardians tank, they are optimized for it. Hell they even do damage about as good as a berserker. So what's the point of the berserker? When a wizard in VP gear can tank better than a Berserker of the same level, you have a BROKEN game.Why is this so hard to understand, SOE?

Xalmat

11-25-2008, 03:03 PM

<cite>Arinwulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't like tanking to begin with.</blockquote>Then you picked the wrong class. I suggest a Swashbuckler. Berserkers are all about being a Tank first, DPS second.

Arinwulf

11-25-2008, 03:08 PM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arinwulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't like tanking to begin with.</blockquote>Then you picked the wrong class. I suggest a Swashbuckler. Berserkers are all about being a Tank first, DPS second.</blockquote>You have no clue what you are talking about. Berserkers were about damage first, tanking second. The guardian class is about tanking first. Do you have a fluid blockage to the brain? What's so hard to understand about this? THERE IS NO POINT TO HAVING THE BERSERKER CLASS ANYMORE. SOE wants us all to be guardians.

Xalmat

11-25-2008, 03:13 PM

Um, excuse me, but I actually play a Berserker. Level 80 with mythical. I regularly group with a fully geared out Berserker in my guild as well.What do you actually play?Not only do Berserkers tank extremely well, but they rock the parse too, especially if it's an AoE fight.

Kordran

11-25-2008, 04:02 PM

<cite>Arinwulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't like tanking to begin with. Burned out tanking as a warrior in EQ1. When EQ2 came out (the reason I bought the bloody game to begin with was because berserkers could really do damage. I figured I would only tank if necessary.</blockquote>That's like a Fury saying that they don't like healing to begin with, and they really just want to play as a caster. You are a warrior, your job is to tank and your damage is there to help you do that job; it's not something to do as an alternative. If tanking isn't your thing, then play a scout. Seriously.

Curs3

11-25-2008, 04:38 PM

Sounds like a troll to me... anyways I manage to do get pretty high on the parse without my epic so far plus steal aggro from pallies and guards.I love berserker, screw off pall

Gisallo

11-25-2008, 04:46 PM

<cite>Arinwulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have no clue what you are talking about. Berserkers were about damage first, tanking second. The guardian class is about tanking first. Do you have a fluid blockage to the brain? What's so hard to understand about this? THERE IS NO POINT TO HAVING THE BERSERKER CLASS ANYMORE. SOE wants us all to be guardians.</blockquote>This illustrates what I saw coming. There were plenty of zerkers that were 100% wearing chain and leather dps gear, standing in a group as melee dps, not even considering tanking. I saw A LOT of people complaining about the loss of DA as being class breaking and realized ..."ooops they don't see themselves as a tank they see themselves as melee dps". In the beginning the class was the exact opposite of what you want it to be. They were a tank first who dpsed more because of less survivability and so could be melee dps if absolutely necessary.Well let me break things down. Berserkers have been and always have been tanks first end of freakin story. Zerks did a little more damage than Guards and guards were a little more durable that was the trade off. The damage was not there to say "you are not a tank", but rather to try and say "they are tougher but you help bring the mob down faster so its a wash." That fine a balance though can't survive years of expansions, updates and uneven class developement. The reason many zerkers ended up filling melee dps roles and not MT or OT roles is because the class was eventually broken in comparison to Guards and Pallys thanks to Amends. Now the rest you may find irrelevant because for some reason you seem to think a Zerker was never meant to tank. They were they just had a hard time. I am sorry that you may have come to the class when the easiest way to go was to roll him as melee dps, but the rest of us want to tank again and now that we can we are happy again.Even with that in mind here we go for damage. In the Cruicible I was 3rd on the parse (behind a Ranger and a Warlock) and I was in freakin' defensive stance for 2/3rds of it, in Befallen 2nd (behind a Swashbuckler). That seems to be pretty fair seeing as how I am a fighter class. I wasn't even running ACT for that, just spamming.In this expansion we are rocking because we do way more AOE damage than Guards and with the changes to our aggro tools we can actually handle single target stuff pretty well too now. Look at all the Guard and Pally foums. On both you will see them complaining about many of the changes because Zerkers and SK's can actually tank again and their slots are no longer "protected" simply because they have the right class name. Lastly in undercutting your "they want us to be guards" train of thought, what the zerks lost in terms of dps the Guardian lost too, so parity has been maintained in the realm of dps. As far as I can see all that got goofed with was the stam tree we share. Since the same dps balance is maintained there we have nopt "become" anything and with the increase in AE encouters we are actually better off parse wise than before.

Arinwulf

11-25-2008, 05:31 PM

First of all, my main is a level 80 zerker, I have my epic, but not mythical. I have played this game from the beginning.Secondly, let me ask you "Tank first" geniuses something. If a zerker's job is tank first, damage second, what is the role of a guardian? What is the distinction to our class?Third, a Fury is about damage first and secondary healing. If you want a healing druid, you make a warden.What is so hard to understand about this? Ostensibly, there are differences in the roles of each class, otherwise, why have all these classes?

surepaw

11-25-2008, 05:46 PM

<cite>Arinwulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't like tanking to begin with. Burned out tanking as a warrior in EQ1. When EQ2 came out (the reason I bought the bloody game to begin with was because berserkers could really do damage. I figured I would only tank if necessary. Then they nerfed us to uselessness. When I ask to join a group these days, the first thing out of their mouths is, we need you to tank. Tanking is thankless and due to SOE "tuning" anemic for the berserker class. Really, SOE needs to quit screwing around and start eliminating their unwanted classes.bottom line- If there are no roles for berserkers besides tanking, then why have the class? Guardians tank, they are optimized for it. Hell they even do damage about as good as a berserker. So what's the point of the berserker?When a wizard in VP gear can tank better than a Berserker of the same level, you have a BROKEN game.Why is this so hard to understand, SOE?</blockquote> <cite>Arinwulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have no clue what you are talking about. Berserkers were about damage first, tanking second. The guardian class is about tanking first. Do you have a fluid blockage to the brain? What's so hard to understand about this? THERE IS NO POINT TO HAVING THE BERSERKER CLASS ANYMORE. SOE wants us all to be guardians.</blockquote> WHAT?!!!!!!!!................I mean...................WHAT?!!!!!!Zerker was not meant for tanking? What are they, a buffed up scout? Zerkers tank fine. They do great damage. Can they do more damage then a scout? No, but they can take a hit better then a scout.The question you should ask yourself is if you chose a fighter class to be pure DPS is what the heck were you thinking?They are not pure DPS, they have great DPS and can tank. Can they take a hit better then a guardian? No, but they can also put out more damage then a guard.I suppose the same could be said of my swash, we have an AA line that allows us to tank. We actually tank well. WE put out more damage then a zerker, but a zerker tanks better then a swash. Does that make the swash broke? Nope. We are still asked to tank from time to time, but our main job is DPS.The zerkers main job is tank, and they can put out some good DPS while they tank. In the new TSO instances you need alot of DPS, a zerker or SK is perfect for that.For example, in Mistmoore Manor, there is a named that if you do not kill them in a certain amout of time the ceiling drops down on you. You need to pump out between 14K and 15K DPS as a group or you are dead. Using a zerker as the tank is perfect for this. They can pump out some serious DPS to add to the 14-15K total. Especially if you have some low DPS classes in your group, you can still make it.Did you want zerker to do as much damage as a swashie and take a hit better? Did you want the zerker to take a hit as well as the guard AND do more damage? Like I said at the beginning...................WHAT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dareena

11-25-2008, 06:06 PM

Umm... Okay, I'm just a lowly scout player. But to my novice understanding, guardians were the single target tanks and berserkers were the AE tanks. Along with that, guardians were built to be slightly more defensive while berserkers were built to be slightly more offensive. (Paladins and Shadow Knights were supposed to follow this same parallel, expect from a hybrid's perspective.)The ultimate issue eventually become that the classes were no longer equal reflections of each other. The guardian's tanking ability in RoK was godly due to the high number of single mob targets. In addition, a mythical guardian could match the DPS of a berserker. Combined with the growing imbalances between the two classes over previous expansions, berserker became a shunned class by much of the EQ2 player base.In TSO, there are so many linked mob encounters that it gives my brigand a real headache. It's in this world that a berserker shines as a tank choice. And if this wasn't enough, the guardian's shield advantage for the Stamina line (from their mythical) is now being shared with both classes. So once again, the playing fields are supposed to be relatively balanced. Guardians no longer have a DPS edge and the mix of solo and group mobs in TSO can make both classes desireable for a group.Have I got any of this wrong? While I haven't paid complete attention to the issues, this was my general understand of the issues. And if I'm right, what is the point of this thread? That the berserker should be a beefier swashbuckler with a little lower DPS?

Arinwulf

11-25-2008, 06:36 PM

Ok, lets start from the beginning. When EQ2 came out, they made a distinction between Defensive Plate wearing fighters and Offensive plate wearing fighters. There was no distinction based on AOE. The defensive plate wearer was a great tank, high hp, best ac and nominal damage, the offensive plate wearer was the opposite, great dps, nominal defensive skills. The classes had different roles. The bezerker was never intended to be the main tank. Off tank maybe, back up, but not the main tank. The guardian had the role of meat shield. There was a difference to the class. Now, even with TSO changes, what is the point to having the two classes. AOE? that's all? What the hell kind of design is that? There is no reason for the berserker class to exist at this point and if they are going to keep things like this, then they should just merge them. If you "berserker players" want to tank so much, why do you play a zerker? why aren't you playing a guardian?Can anyone answer that question? Dareena, thank you for taking the time to respond with your post. I acknowledge that things are different now than they were under RoK, but its still nothing more than a bandaid on a bigger problem. One combat feature shouldn't be the basis of an entirely new class. But really that's all its gotten down to.

Xalmat

11-25-2008, 06:37 PM

<cite>Arinwulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you "berserker players" want to tank so much, why do you play a zerker? why aren't you playing a guardian?Can anyone answer that question?</blockquote>Because Zerkers are more fun than Guardians, and they have a better looking class hat.I mean seriously, Viking hat pwns all!

Arinwulf

11-25-2008, 06:40 PM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arinwulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you "berserker players" want to tank so much, why do you play a zerker? why aren't you playing a guardian?Can anyone answer that question?</blockquote>Because Zerkers are more fun than Guardians, and they have a better looking class hat.</blockquote>Hmm, ok, well hard to argue with that kind of relentless logic. I concede, sir, to your keen ability to focus on the salient points. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Grumpy_Warrior_01

11-25-2008, 07:17 PM

To the players that are sipping this kool-ade about berserkers being the gods of AOE and guardians being the gods of single-target encounters, explain something to me. If a berserker's ability to hold aggro on multi-target encounters is better, how can you logically say he does not also hold onto single targets better? It makes no sense. Whatever aggro tools are used on multi-target encounters can also be used on single targets.

aias

11-25-2008, 07:51 PM

<cite>Arinwulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, lets start from the beginning. When EQ2 came out, they made a distinction between Defensive Plate wearing fighters and Offensive plate wearing fighters. There was no distinction based on AOE. The defensive plate wearer was a great tank, high hp, best ac and nominal damage, the offensive plate wearer was the opposite, great dps, nominal defensive skills. The classes had different roles. The bezerker was never intended to be the main tank. Off tank maybe, back up, but not the main tank. The guardian had the role of meat shield. There was a difference to the class. Now, even with TSO changes, what is the point to having the two classes. AOE? that's all? What the hell kind of design is that? There is no reason for the berserker class to exist at this point and if they are going to keep things like this, then they should just merge them. If you "berserker players" want to tank so much, why do you play a zerker? why aren't you playing a guardian?Can anyone answer that question? Dareena, thank you for taking the time to respond with your post. I acknowledge that things are different now than they were under RoK, but its still nothing more than a bandaid on a bigger problem. One combat feature shouldn't be the basis of an entirely new class. But really that's all its gotten down to.</blockquote>Sounds like you've been playing a different game than the rest of us. Swashbuckler is what you really want.

Hardain

11-25-2008, 08:25 PM

Berserkers have allways been great tanks in EQ2, and i've played one since launch. Even in 2004 they were considered as tanks(and why wouldn't they been?), that's why they wear plate. Offensive tanks yes, but still capable of tanking all content without problems. And now with TSO we're one of the best tanks out there, especially for instances.

LygerT

11-25-2008, 09:14 PM

what's with all these stupid threads about zerks lately anyways?i'd be impressed if a guard can tank alot of the new heroic zones as well as we can. what the OP needs to do is find some healers that don't suck, seriously..(there. someone has to be the d**k and it may as well be me)

Slayer505

11-25-2008, 09:20 PM

Anyone that thinks Berserkers can't, or shouldn't tank is playing the wrong class. I'm a day one Berserker and I've been MT for my guild for a while now, including ALL instanced content in RoK. If you're maxing out your DPS then you're probably tanking since you probably have aggro, cause, guess what, zerkers don't have detaunts. Berserkers are tanks, end of story. If you made a Berserker just to DPS you rolled the wrong class. That said, the best way to tank as a Berserker is to max out your DPS. I'm almost always in the top 5 on the parse on most raid fights.Given the large number of AE fights in this expansion, I'd be willing to bet you're going to see a large exodus of former Zerkers who wussed out and betrayed in RoK betraying back now. Lucky for me I don't have to since I was too [Removed for Content] stubborn to betray. Of course I still managed to MT all of RoK so I guess I got the last laugh.

Gisallo

11-26-2008, 12:48 AM

<cite>Arinwulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, lets start from the beginning. When EQ2 came out, they made a distinction between Defensive Plate wearing fighters and Offensive plate wearing fighters. There was no distinction based on AOE. The defensive plate wearer was a great tank, high hp, best ac and nominal damage, the offensive plate wearer was the opposite, great dps, nominal defensive skills. The classes had different roles. The bezerker was never intended to be the main tank. Off tank maybe, back up, but not the main tank. The guardian had the role of meat shield. There was a difference to the class. Now, even with TSO changes, what is the point to having the two classes. AOE? that's all? What the hell kind of design is that? There is no reason for the berserker class to exist at this point and if they are going to keep things like this, then they should just merge them. If you "berserker players" want to tank so much, why do you play a zerker? why aren't you playing a guardian?Can anyone answer that question? Dareena, thank you for taking the time to respond with your post. I acknowledge that things are different now than they were under RoK, but its still nothing more than a bandaid on a bigger problem. One combat feature shouldn't be the basis of an entirely new class. But really that's all its gotten down to.</blockquote>You clealy miss the point. The purpose of a Guardian and a Zerker was to have 2 different ways to plate tank. One way was low damage take more than you dish out. The other way was to give at least as good as you got, the theory being you take the enemy down faster you don't have to take as many hits. Additional AOEs had a lot to do with this. Not so much to maintain aggro but to help take down multiple foes faster to again balance out the marginal difference in durability.Now as the game progressed Guards complained it was insane to solo because while it was hard to kill them it took them forever to kill things (like templars). To balance this out Guards got better at single target dps to the point they were almost as good as Zerkers. This was the beginning of zerkers being much less desireable in the tank department. If now the guard has comparable single target dps AND more durability why use an equally skilled zerker? This thus cause zerkers to either make sure they were great at their class, caused them to betray, or made them start kitting out only for dps. As a pure dps zerker, even under the old set up, you were NEVER going to be as good at dps as an equally equipped and played Swashy, Brigand. Thats what made zerkers red headed step children. If given a chance we could OT well, and dps decently, but there were classes that could do better in all of those categories. Since from the beginning, whether you actually realized it or not, we were tanks. Hence things like taunts rescue.

Gisallo

11-26-2008, 01:03 AM

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>To the players that are sipping this kool-ade about berserkers being the gods of AOE and guardians being the gods of single-target encounters, explain something to me. If a berserker's ability to hold aggro on multi-target encounters is better, how can you logically say he does not also hold onto single targets better? It makes no sense. Whatever aggro tools are used on multi-target encounters can also be used on single targets.</blockquote>Okay tank 101. Maintining aggro (without transfers) is hate and/or dps. Now I'll use even numbers to make this work. Tank 1 has 4 taunts that effect single target worth 800 hate and 5 single target CA's worth 1000 points of damage.tank 2 has 2 single target taunts worth 100 hate, 2 AOE (or encounter taunts) worth1 200 hate 3 single target attacks worth 600 points of damage and 2 AOE (or encouter) CA's worth 400 points of damage.on a single target tank 1 generates 1800 points of hate, 2 generates 1400. more hate means dps can burn more. However tank 2 also is potentially effecting things to an extent that are not the single target to the tune of 600 points of hate without tabbing through targets. Hence AOE vs single target

scrible

11-26-2008, 05:54 AM

WOW and i thought i was the dumbest zerk in the gamehaving dragged my arrrse up from 0 to 80 with a zerk as my 1st toon while trying to learn the game at same through what it turned out was not a good time (how was i to know ,i knew nothing about the game ).Even i soon learnt that our 1st job was ment to be that of the tank,it was not a role i would have chosen for my 1st toon if i had known but thats what i got and i stuck with it with a lot of help from these forums among other places ,and now finally we are starting to be seen as tanks once more what could be better!As for the idea that we should have 2 aa set ups one for dps and one for tanking this makes perfect sense i currently use the standard str sta int one but woiuld love some idea's on 2 different set ups for the different roles.well thanks for all your help over the past and its still great to be a tank and a tank formost !!best wishes scrib

Jhot

11-26-2008, 06:26 AM

Zerkers can't tank? Are you joking? Nothing its all black or all white, and you know, the most fun is in the middle. Knowing how to play your class does not put you in one side or the other, you have to be able to adapt the situation and dont cry when things does not go as "expected". I use to play instances with my guildies and in most of them we have the big mama tanking (guardian) and me with two swords spreading love in the background. Of course there are moments i need to control my damage and others where i just give it all. I have different macros for my weapons and i try to adapt to the situation. You know, sometimes things go as expected and sometimes not, and there is where the zerkers can do amazingly well. You can do great dps and in the next second you can be a wall of iron and keep the aggro while the situation goes under control again.

Gisallo

11-26-2008, 06:33 AM

<cite>scrible wrote:</cite><blockquote>WOW and i thought i was the dumbest zerk in the gameAs for the idea that we should have 2 aa set ups one for dps and one for tanking this makes perfect sense i currently use the standard str sta int one but woiuld love some idea's on 2 different set ups for the different roles.well thanks for all your help over the past and its still great to be a tank and a tank formost !!best wishes scrib</blockquote>To be honest, and I could be wrong, the only think I could see doing is maybe taking whatever points you put into ST4 now for aggro bonus back into the int line. That would be a marginal increase in dps that I think simply wouldn't be worth the head ache of going to the mirror.Might be worth it to try monkeying around with the shadows tree but that would be pretty self explanatory. Take stuff out of the things that just say "now generates hate", "generates more hate" or reduces recharge times on taunts/rescuses, increase mit etc and puts it into damage stuff. say put the points in fighter in swinging strike and offensive prowess, warrior into rallying cry and shield slam and zerk into unstoppable will and gladiator's frenzy. Again may be more trouble than its worth, I don't have the points or inclination to do that yet because when they want my zerk they want a tank if they want dps they tell me to fetch my ranger.I'm thinking though that it will just be easier to monkey around with gear and make sure you have a dual wield option on-board. You can swap gear in the field and still get a nice boost.

Mephistophelese

11-26-2008, 07:46 AM

gotta say this is one of the most unnessary post in forums. zerkers are tanks.. we do some nice dps but were tanks. donno why you think guard is so much better. i have tanked about everything heroic(no raids as RL don't let me commit to that) and can keep agro and survive np. if you think guards are only tank plz betray. i will have more fun as a zerker

Gisallo

11-26-2008, 10:06 AM

<cite>Mephistophelese wrote:</cite><blockquote>gotta say this is one of the most unnessary post in forums. zerkers are tanks.. we do some nice dps but were tanks. donno why you think guard is so much better. i have tanked about everything heroic(no raids as RL don't let me commit to that) and can keep agro and survive np. if you think guards are only tank plz betray. i will have more fun as a zerker</blockquote>What it seems is that the OP (regardless of the title of his post) NEVER intended (or eventually convinced himself) that berserkers are dps and not tank material. Where he got these thoughts I don't know. Perhaps some Guardian or Pally had a secret propaganda campaign going to try and stop zerkers from reminding SOE they are tanks and I missed it. Since you COULD dps rather well with Zerker you could get by with this. Now dps has become a little less because of the fact dps changes in the Stam line. And he thinks he's in trouble. News flash by the way. If you gear right and you dw you will still do about as much dps as you did using a buckler last expansion. Last night I spent about 3 hours beating the crap out of training dummies in the guild hall to prove the point while running act. Since I was DW and not getting any of my "reactive" attacks off in response to being hit, my dps was not what it will be in combat but it was still dang good. I was parsing over the course of beating the dummy pretty close to swashies I group with and those swashies are better equipped.I would not (for my equipment atm) recommend I do this style of burn down while tanking, because my surviveability was clearly compromised, BUT if I had to fill a melee dps slot in a heroic instance, I would be doing the job quite well. <shrug>

Grumpy_Warrior_01

11-26-2008, 10:39 AM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Okay tank 101. Maintining aggro (without transfers) is hate and/or dps. Now I'll use even numbers to make this work. Tank 1 has 4 taunts that effect single target worth 800 hate and 5 single target CA's worth 1000 points of damage.tank 2 has 2 single target taunts worth 100 hate, 2 AOE (or encounter taunts) worth1 200 hate 3 single target attacks worth 600 points of damage and 2 AOE (or encouter) CA's worth 400 points of damage.on a single target tank 1 generates 1800 points of hate, 2 generates 1400. more hate means dps can burn more. However tank 2 also is potentially effecting things to an extent that are not the single target to the tune of 600 points of hate without tabbing through targets. Hence AOE vs single target</blockquote>This is great info, but can I ask why you are using "even" numbers to make your example work? You play an 80 berserker, you know your own combat arts and you should know most of the guardian's. If you actually line up the two subclasses instead of this generalized fantasy about how the tools are supposedly different, you'll see why I pose the question. I'm not trolling here. The ability of a berserker to maintain hate on single targets is not nearly as mediocre as the fantasy argument makes it out to be. All I'm saying is, call a spade a spade. Berserkers are and always were designed to be absolutely 100% tank material, the twin brother of the guardian. And the developers have now buffed berserkers way beyond guardians for every role in the game -- solo, groups/instances, raids. Some players are making this false argument about how everything is now "fair" because of this lame aoe-versus-single argument and I'm just calling shenanigans on them.

Bane

11-26-2008, 10:56 AM

Just to give an example of our tank vs. DPS abilitys I was in a group in Nu'roga last night DW and in Offensive stance. I was not the tank, we had a pally that wanted to tank. I was useing my fabled epic and a crappy master crafted off hand because I don't have anything better at the moment for an off hand. The groups DPS was on average about 9k-10. I was putting up about 5k-6k of that, and guess what when the pally was over run with mobs and went down I generaly was able to pick up all the mobs and tank them even in DW and offensive stance. So yes I would say we have no problems with either our DPS or our tanking ability. Maybe Arinwulf you should take a look at your AA specs and gear and figure out what to changes there to accomodate your personal playstyle and not /whine because things change and you have to learn to adapt. By the way I am geared with nothing that can't be gotten from questing and/or pick up raids if you want to look for yourself.

Giddo

11-26-2008, 11:26 AM

Berserkers can perform the role of a dps'er in a group just fine. Who else(besides brawlers and guardians) gets 25%DA from aa while dual wielding.However, I can tell you this...There is no way i am going to bring some random plate wearer into an instance I am tanking. Why do I want to put myself in a situation to compete on tank loot, especially with a Plate tank that fancies himself as a primary dps'er. Guildies are a different story, I will bring whoever wants to come...If your issue is not getting groups because the perceived lack of ability to dps. Step up and learn to tank IMO, berserkers own at tanking in TSO. You are in a minority of one. You are not going to bring anyone over to your way of thinking. In fact, you may be the only berserker I have ever seen who considers himself dps first....True we can dps well, well enough in fact to justify a non tank spot in a raid if played/speced properly, but that is not and never has been our primary role.Original description of Berserker:The Berserker is the personification of unbridled aggression and fury. They are fearsome opponents, especially when facing many foes at once. Berserkers stand at the forefront of battle, unleashing their devastating rage upon the enemy while keeping unwanted attention away from their allies.I am not sure how that does not scream tank to you... How do you keep unwanted attention away from your allies without tanking...You rolled the wrong class tbh. Do yourself and us a favor and bring up a swashy. <div> Sikdom</div>

Dragori

11-26-2008, 12:02 PM

SOE, what is the role of wizard? Cuz, its sure not nuker.'nuff said.

Xalmat

11-26-2008, 12:26 PM

<cite>Dragorien wrote:</cite><blockquote>SOE, what is the role of wizard? Cuz, its sure not nuker.'nuff said.</blockquote>Wizards are clearly tanks. They pull aggro easily enough!

Curs3

11-26-2008, 12:27 PM

illys too, they get confused sometime.

Xanrn

11-26-2008, 02:31 PM

Illys job is to be the most overpowered and wanted class in the entire game.

AziBam

11-26-2008, 02:52 PM

<cite>Arinwulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>First of all, my main is a level 80 zerker, I have my epic, but not mythical. I have played this game from the beginning.Secondly, let me ask you "Tank first" geniuses something. If a zerker's job is tank first, damage second, what is the role of a guardian? What is the distinction to our class?Third, a Fury is about damage first and secondary healing. If you want a healing druid, you make a warden.What is so hard to understand about this? Ostensibly, there are differences in the roles of each class, otherwise, why have all these classes?</blockquote>Title of this thread just sucked me in so I can't resist. I'm not a zerk. Guildmate who IS a zerk tank just rocks.ALL of the following are tanks: Guardians, Berserker, Paladin, Shadowknight, Monk, Bruiser. The problem that SOE struggles with is how to make them all balanced together at their main job while going about it in different manners. The reality just isn't always the same as the intent. They are not dps classes although a number of them can do excellent dps as well. In fact, that's a complaint that sometimes comes up from the dps classes (scouts and casters) in that several tank classes, with zerk being very high on the list, can do such high dps and still have the tools and survivability of a tank.All of the following are healers: Templars, Inquisitors, Wardens, Furies, Mystics, Defilers. Once again, the problem that SOE struggles with is how to make them all balanced at their main job as healers along with their secondary abilities. A fury is not a dps class. They are a healer that generally can do good dps. Really, I can't imagine you are going to find much sympathy on this topic especially given the new expansion and it's AE nature. You chose to play a tank class. A berserker was a tank at launch and continues to be today. That is not something that has changed over time. Most players know how good zerkers are at tanking. Therefore, most groups will expect someone playing your class to fill that primary role. You keep asking what role a guardian has if a zerk is also a tank and it's the same thing. The difference should be more a matter of style/flavor instead of a"there can be only one" mentality. Again, there are 6 tank classes in this game not 1. So, it seems to me that you have two options. A) be willing to accept that others who don't know you will expect you to be a tank and just know that if it's not what you want to do you will have to do your best to play in a style you enjoy or B) create a class that was and is intended to be primarily dps from the scout or mage ranks. Either way, play what you like but I just don't envision much to be gained by railing against SOE for your choice to play your character outside of its typical role.

Wilin

11-26-2008, 03:24 PM

Like someone said, file this one along with the furies who don't like to heal.Everything the OP said is BS, except for the fact that he/she doesn't like to tank.

Gisallo

11-28-2008, 06:16 AM

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Okay tank 101. Maintining aggro (without transfers) is hate and/or dps. Now I'll use even numbers to make this work. Tank 1 has 4 taunts that effect single target worth 800 hate and 5 single target CA's worth 1000 points of damage.tank 2 has 2 single target taunts worth 100 hate, 2 AOE (or encounter taunts) worth1 200 hate 3 single target attacks worth 600 points of damage and 2 AOE (or encouter) CA's worth 400 points of damage.on a single target tank 1 generates 1800 points of hate, 2 generates 1400. more hate means dps can burn more. However tank 2 also is potentially effecting things to an extent that are not the single target to the tune of 600 points of hate without tabbing through targets. Hence AOE vs single target</blockquote>This is great info, but can I ask why you are using "even" numbers to make your example work? You play an 80 berserker, you know your own combat arts and you should know most of the guardian's. If you actually line up the two subclasses instead of this generalized fantasy about how the tools are supposedly different, you'll see why I pose the question. I'm not trolling here. The ability of a berserker to maintain hate on single targets is not nearly as mediocre as the fantasy argument makes it out to be. I used the even numbers because I am lazy but the theory is sound. When I am talking about it its A) largely in the past since TSO comes out BUT B) a Guardian is still going to have an easier time tanking that last named in a raid zone. In Instances you are right the difference isn't that big a deal though with the expetion of what follows. A Guardian has to tab through multiple targets to lock down multiple mobs. I pop Insolence and an AoE attack and they are on me while I still am staying on the same initial target. All I'm saying is, call a spade a spade. Berserkers are and always were designed to be absolutely 100% tank material, the twin brother of the guardian. And the developers have now buffed berserkers way beyond guardians for every role in the game -- solo, groups/instances, raids. Some players are making this false argument about how everything is now "fair" because of this lame aoe-versus-single argument and I'm just calling shenanigans on them.Ummm okay. We were twins but fraternal not identical. As for being buffed beyond... not! Prior to TSO Guards almost matched Zerks on single target dps and had far better surviveability. Even now our survivability isn't where it should be in regards to them (when the dps difference is looked at) until you get to the end ability on the Shadows tree. Even after we get that ability Guards still have more surviveability (more stone skins, sphere etc.) one heck of a hit points buff in their end line, a good shield buff and a strike through which will help their dps even more so because we sure don't have access to a 15% chance to strikethrough a successful avoidance check. They also have abilities that make them superior in keeping others up, Sphere again and a much better interept (doesn't go away in a minute or so.) Intercept also generates aggro btw, can't tell you how many times I've thrown that on someone and it [Removed for Content] the mob off (similar to a heal I think) and helped me get the aggro back. All of this extra defense, close to zerker single target dps, and more raw single target threat generation make them better single target tanks. Those final Raid zone named hit like a stone wall. The fact that we can pick up multiple adds without tabbing through them makes us better at AoE....seems pretty obvious to me...and most other tanks, including Guards (at least in regards to the important difference between single target and AoE). Heck our mythical was basically designed with the purpose of being an Avatar add tool, much to the complaint of many a zerker who wanted something that was more generically tank useful in terms of increasing survivability. Now I am not claiming that AoE was as class defining at launch. I wasn't on a zerker at launch to be able to say this one way or the other, but it is certainly important and defining to an extent now.</blockquote>

Soul_Dreamer

11-28-2008, 12:04 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Okay tank 101. Maintining aggro (without transfers) is hate and/or dps. Now I'll use even numbers to make this work. Tank 1 has 4 taunts that effect single target worth 800 hate and 5 single target CA's worth 1000 points of damage.tank 2 has 2 single target taunts worth 100 hate, 2 AOE (or encounter taunts) worth1 200 hate 3 single target attacks worth 600 points of damage and 2 AOE (or encouter) CA's worth 400 points of damage.on a single target tank 1 generates 1800 points of hate, 2 generates 1400. more hate means dps can burn more. However tank 2 also is potentially effecting things to an extent that are not the single target to the tune of 600 points of hate without tabbing through targets. Hence AOE vs single target</blockquote>This is great info, but can I ask why you are using "even" numbers to make your example work? You play an 80 berserker, you know your own combat arts and you should know most of the guardian's. If you actually line up the two subclasses instead of this generalized fantasy about how the tools are supposedly different, you'll see why I pose the question. I'm not trolling here. The ability of a berserker to maintain hate on single targets is not nearly as mediocre as the fantasy argument makes it out to be. I used the even numbers because I am lazy but the theory is sound. When I am talking about it its A) largely in the past since TSO comes out BUT B) a Guardian is still going to have an easier time tanking that last named in a raid zone. In Instances you are right the difference isn't that big a deal though with the expetion of what follows. A Guardian has to tab through multiple targets to lock down multiple mobs. I pop Insolence and an AoE attack and they are on me while I still am staying on the same initial target. And while the Guardian is tabbing through, the Single target DPS in the group who is using /assist has peeled the initial mob and died. While the Guardian is tabbing through his attacks are doing less damage because the initial mob is the one that got the debuffs land on it. Your "Theory" isn't sound, it may look nice to you on paper but it falls on it's butt in practice.All I'm saying is, call a spade a spade. Berserkers are and always were designed to be absolutely 100% tank material, the twin brother of the guardian. And the developers have now buffed berserkers way beyond guardians for every role in the game -- solo, groups/instances, raids. Some players are making this false argument about how everything is now "fair" because of this lame aoe-versus-single argument and I'm just calling shenanigans on them.Ummm okay. We were twins but fraternal not identical. As for being buffed beyond... not! Prior to TSO Guards almost matched Zerks on single target dps and had far better surviveability. Even now our survivability isn't where it should be in regards to them (when the dps difference is looked at) until you get to the end ability on the Shadows tree. Even after we get that ability Guards still have more surviveability (more stone skins, sphere etc.) one heck of a hit points buff in their end line, a good shield buff and a strike through which will help their dps even more so because we sure don't have access to a 15% chance to strikethrough a successful avoidance check. Let me get this straight, you don't think Berzerkers are defensive enough compared to Guardians? Stoneskins drop almost instantly when tanking multiple mobs, Adrenalin stays up for it's duration working no matter how many. Strike through is good? are you honestly that special?100 attacks, 85 land so 15 miss, giving me a hit chance of 85%, of these 15 hits that missed, 15% get the strike through check, so thats all of 2.25 hits that strikethrough gives us out of every 100 with a hit chance of 85%. OMG thats uber!!!!They also have abilities that make them superior in keeping others up, Sphere again and a much better interept (doesn't go away in a minute or so.) Intercept also generates aggro btw, can't tell you how many times I've thrown that on someone and it [Removed for Content] the mob off (similar to a heal I think) and helped me get the aggro back. All of this extra defense, close to zerker single target dps, and more raw single target threat generation make them better single target tanks. Those final Raid zone named hit like a stone wall. The fact that we can pick up multiple adds without tabbing through them makes us better at AoE....seems pretty obvious to me...and most other tanks, including Guards (at least in regards to the important difference between single target and AoE). Heck our mythical was basically designed with the purpose of being an Avatar add tool, much to the complaint of many a zerker who wanted something that was more generically tank useful in terms of increasing survivability. Have you ever used Stonesphere? Do you know the range of the buff is about 3-5m, I can count on one hand the number of times it has Absorbed damage for a group or raid member. AOE isn't something extra the Berzerker is able to do, it's the specialisation of the Berzerker class. Ever thought that, YOU CAN DPS AOE BETTER THAN GUARDIANS SO THE MOBS WILL BE ON YOU INSTEAD OF THE DPS.... how's that for a tool to keep damage from hitting your group? Please explain where we get all this Raw single target hate generation from? Why our defense is sooo much higher than yours to the extent you need more. What exactly is it you think sets a Guardian that far ahead of a Berzerker? Have you even played the classes in TSO or is this just all guess work from what they where like in RoK?Guardians and Berzerkers single target DPS is similar, with the Berzerker ahead slightly.Guardians have 9% DA in their Guardian line so have 9% more, hmmm but Berzerkers have DA and Crit as a proc on their Mythical.Berzerkers have more snapo agro abilities than Guardians.Guardian - Reinforcement, Rescue, the 2 TSO AA's, fighter and Warrior.Berzerker - Rescue, the 3 TSO AA's, Fighter, Warrior and Berzerker. Gibe (with Mythical). Guardians get added hate on stonesphere while it's up like Berzerkers do with Adrenalin... ohh wait... no.Guardians have 25% incomming damage = Hate on their mythical. Dam, wrong again, thats Berzerker.They're about equal in some places with the Berzerker coming out on top in others. AOE?Guardian.1 blue AOE, 1 Green taunt, a Green taunt that has a small amount of damage on it and is a 2 second cast. AA, 40% AOE attack and 1 blue AOE, is specced Agi line.Berzerker.Intrusion, Adrenalin (with AA for hate), Offensive stance AOE auto attack, Bellow, bloodshower, stunning below. Counter( will hit those who hit the Zerker), Insolence, Agi Line AOE. AOE rescue in final TSO lines.Berzerker owns Guardian flat out, a Guardian can't compete in AOE damage and agro.Defense.GuardianTower of Stone - Hits over 10% will be absorbed by the shield, 3 hits.Block - Blocks the next incomming hit as long as the Guardian doesn't use any combat arts.Stonesphere - 5 charge stone skin on 50% chance proc rate.TSO final ability - 20% Dodge chance for 20 seconds every 3 minutes.2 x Temp Mit buffs.BerzerkerWall of Force - hits over 30% will be absorbed, 2 hits.Gut Roar - Ripostes the next incomming attack.Adrenalin - 50% damage reduction on all hits while Berzerk.Heal for 2k?? - everytime you drop below 30% HP.2 x Temp mit buffs.Guardians have no more defensive abilities than a Berzerker, some are diffrerent, or more powerful than others but essentially they are all there to keep the fighter up. What exactly do you think you're lacking over a Guardian?Some abilities may be wrong because my Guardian hasn't been a Berzerker for a very long time so I had to look some up. but.. these are real abilities not a fictional class you made up in your head. Where exactly are Guardians so far ahead that you want more? If anything A Guardian needs more defense again because Berzerkers have been brought right up in line with Guardians.<blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote>Now I am not claiming that AoE was as class defining at launch. I wasn't on a zerker at launch to be able to say this one way or the other, but it is certainly important and defining to an extent now.AOE agro is the defining role of the Berzerker, being able to hold large amounts of mobs and having some tools to be able to survive when you do it.Single target damage absorption WAS the defining role of a Guardian, being able to hold 1 mob and take a helluva beating from it. I say WAS because now Berzerkers are so close to Guardians it really doesn't define us at all. To look for proof of this, just look at all of the HC raid guild MT's who are betraying to Berzerker, these are tanks who have been killing Avatars all throughout RoK but now the Berzerker is so close to Guardian in Defense while giving up nothing in AOE/DPS or utility that a Berzerker is the best all around choice. </blockquote></blockquote>

Bremer

11-28-2008, 01:07 PM

Lol, the color war from the beta board continues <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Soul_Dreamer

11-28-2008, 01:28 PM

Wasn't involved in that one, although it did go on for a while <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

Obadiah

11-29-2008, 12:20 AM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>Single target damage absorption WAS the defining role of a Guardian, being able to hold 1 mob and take a helluva beating from it. I say WAS because now Berzerkers are so close to Guardians it really doesn't define us at all. To look for proof of this, just look at all of the HC raid guild MT's who are betraying to Berzerker, these are tanks who have been killing Avatars all throughout RoK but now the Berzerker is so close to Guardian in Defense while giving up nothing in AOE/DPS or utility that a Berzerker is the best all around choice. </blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>1. Since you have statistics on this apparently, how many of these were originally Berserkers who betrayed in EoF or RoK?2. If this is true, the joke might be on those betraying. Fighter changes aren't done. WTS patience, 25P.

Soul_Dreamer

11-29-2008, 12:37 AM

No idea how many of them where Guardiand pre EoF/RoK, my main was my Warlock in KoS and part of EoF so I pretty much only paid attention to that community, I switched to my Guardian because our MT left game.1, has betrayed already, another has started collecting masters and Zerker VP set gear and has spoken to his raid lead about changing, who has yet to decide. These are 2 I know personally, I'm sure alot of the Ex Berzerkers are changing back though if they can take the master and gear hit.Patience I have in abundance, dealing with stupidity isn't a strong suit of mine. Putting the fighter classes live as is without the full changes being made or even any announcment as to what they may entail and a detailed explanation of the target state of the fighters is nothing but stupid and is bound to cause issues and anxiety amongst the Fighter community.

Ep

11-29-2008, 09:18 AM

I'm an avatar guardian, i have almost every piece of avatar gear, i been through beta, i saw all the changes, i am not betraying atm. i did betray from zerker kos->eof.why am i not betraying? i'm still the mt, i have every master, and quite frankly i have no time to dedicate to a 6hr betrayal and worse yet, broker dive for all the berserker masters i'll need. gear wouldn't be an issue, i could get anything i'd want and even get items in preperation for a betrayl if i wanted, i just do not see the point.what do i mean by this? if it's raiding i personally don't have any aggro issues, grouping? big deal i goto my mirror and respec to agi and take out my axe of war.would i have betrayed with 200aa? now thats a different story, maybe, i personally see berserker having all the tools a guardian has and having the aoe advantage, and now a very good situational mythical, my guardian mythical is junk, especially with 2 chimes.Again i say this, no berserker see's the advantage you WILL have with 200aa over a guardian b/c no one has 200aa yet, but once the general population, especially the berseker/guardian population reaches 200aa berserkers are going to go, "wow i'm a guard but i have aoe tools, and guards will go wow, i'm a berserker w/o aoe tools..."

LygerT

11-29-2008, 05:03 PM

there's still no good reason for guard main tanks to betray, there is not enough AE raid mobs to make it worthwhile and believe it or not they still have the survivability edge. the guards who are betraying are either heroic tanks first/raid offtanks/whiners who have no clue how to play/are trying to make some bold point about the flip flopping of power. even though zerks are not overpowered the weak betrayal threats still keep coming in, it was obvious when zerks betrayed to guard because we truly lacked much over guards for the last expansion and then some but this is not the case when you look at zerks vs guards in a raid setting currently with the exception of maybe 1 fight(last named in tomb).

Gisallo

11-29-2008, 06:27 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>there's still no good reason for guard main tanks to betray, there is not enough AE raid mobs to make it worthwhile and believe it or not they still have the survivability edge. the guards who are betraying are either heroic tanks first/raid offtanks/whiners who have no clue how to play/are trying to make some bold point about the flip flopping of power. even though zerks are not overpowered the weak betrayal threats still keep coming in, it was obvious when zerks betrayed to guard because we truly lacked much over guards for the last expansion and then some but this is not the case when you look at zerks vs guards in a raid setting currently with the exception of maybe 1 fight(last named in tomb).</blockquote>Thats pretty much what I have been saying on other forums. Its more an issue of content. In RoK instances the Guard is still better than the Zerk. In TSO instances the Zerk may well be better but thats a factor of the devs being lazy and making the differences between zones being gimicky "kill the trash. click on the pole. possess the prisoner" junk rather than balance the over all content. In raid zones though there really isn't any difference. Maybe my guild is wierd but when we tank stuff its usually "MT take the named, everyone assist through the OT to take the adds. When adds are dropped move to assist MT". In these roles the guardian is still definitely better as the main tank and the Zerker is now seen on paper as a viable OT rather than being seen as the red headed step child. Now one can argue that the idea of making "single target" vs "AoE" the main part of the balance rather than "offensive" vs "defensive" is a failing proposition because SOE is so lazy when designing the bulk of instance zones. One year it will be single target the next AoE. Then again this wouldn't be a problem either if SOE stopped being lazy would it? So rather than screaming "I need a buff" or "they need a nerf" and perpetuate the never ending over powered/under powered roller coaster, why don't we get on SOE to start designing content that all classes can enjoy. This would also go a long way in helping other classes. Who on one of their other toons (when guildies aren't avail) hasn't been frustrated to see "group lf mezzer", "group looking for plate healer", "group looking for melee dps" when they just don't fit the bill, just close but no cigar? I understand this stuff in raids but a 6 man instance? But no lets just look at something someone else got, rather than putting things into the proper context, see what the real problem is and try to address that.

LygerT

11-30-2008, 01:55 PM

it's tough to balance content also, because if you have 50% of zones filled to the brim with AE mobs and 50% with all single targets then one side would complain that those zones full with AE mobs are tailored to suit another class while that class also has an edge in the single target zones.. so you see my point that there is no one way they can go and have there not be an issue from one side to the other.but as it is now, things are fine, zerks are still better heroic tanks and guards now only just a hair better raid tanks. so the guards who are crying, they can always betray, suck it up or they can suck on the pacifier. i'm sure more single target aggro is on the way(for guards, so they maybe can step off the AE>ST aggro, but of course they already knew we were AE tanks...) and i'm going to laugh at the whiners who thought this was exactly how it was going to be for the duration of TSO and whom betrayed in anticipation of that.we took our seat, we waited it out while we all thought of betrayal but stuck it out so i have no sympathy for things turning a bit more equalled out.

LordDragone

11-30-2008, 04:28 PM

I have to admit. I am extremely [Removed for Content] and disappointed with SOE regarding what has been done to the Berserker.I leved to 80 no problem, held my own in all fights. GU 50 somes along and BAM! I can hold agro on [Removed for Content] GREY mobs now!!!!!Whatever you did Sony FIX IT!!!!!!!!! Or just delete the dam class!

Slayer505

11-30-2008, 04:33 PM

If you're having trouble holding aggro in TSO you really should rethink your build/play style. I have no trouble at all, even grouped with Mythical geared DPSers with no hate transfer/boost classes. Granted I'm in full raid gear with Mythical, but given all the tools they've given us in the expansion, there's no reason you should be having trouble.

LordDragone

11-30-2008, 05:15 PM

I'm not raid geared. I shouldn't HAVE to be fully raid geared in order to hold agroSo that said, what build should I have? What tools should I have that I am missing?

Xalmat

11-30-2008, 05:28 PM

You pretty much need raid gear in order to hold aggro off other raid gear equipped players. That's been my experience.

Slayer505

11-30-2008, 06:26 PM

Strength 4 is awesome. I'd also reccomend dumping points out of your EoF tree to buy up some of the Shadows tree. The Fighter and Warrior end line abilities help a lot. I'd also recommend reducing the recast on Rescue and putting points in Aggressive Nature (procs a taunt when you block). You'll still have trouble holding aggro off raid geared players if you aren't raid geared, but you should at least have a chance.

Kaberu

11-30-2008, 06:34 PM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>You pretty much need raid gear in order to hold aggro off other raid gear equipped players. That's been my experience.</blockquote>Do not take it personally as I am directing this at the general attitude and not you specifically but... That is absolute BS.I am not raid geared at all. My armor is all the Di'zok crafted stuff and the rest is heroic dropped, quested or mastercrafted. Even my weapons are mastercrafted. I have maybe 4 or 5 Adept III's and the rest (aside from my M2 pick) is Adept I.I have done absolute nothing to enchance my aggro directly with AAs (save for one incedental)... I have not bought the STR 4, I have not bought the Shadow enhancements for anything that affects taunts, I don't even have any of the finals in Shadows. I do have the Raging Blow enhancement on the Berserker tree mostly to unlock the shield stun/debuffs though.I do not raid (due to work) BUT I am in a raid guild. I have no problem holding aggro over raid geared guildies or even raid geared PUGs and I have no problem holding aggro over mythical/raid geared guildies. The only time I "lose aggro" is when I'm grouped with a Brigand. Anyone who understands the nature of a Brigand's abilities should know that this is to be expected.That's not to say that a raid geared, or even a non-raid geared player, can't take aggro from me if they really wanted to, but they'd probably have to be playing dumb (like not using de-aggros or opening too soon with big hits).

Gisallo

11-30-2008, 06:55 PM

<cite>LordDragone wrote:</cite><cite></cite><blockquote>I'm not raid geared. I shouldn't HAVE to be fully raid geared in order to hold agroSo that said, what build should I have? What tools should I have that I am missing?</blockquote>Trust me I know how you feel. Iam hae nice instance gear but no raid gear yet. Friday night I do Scion of Ice and Anchor of Bazzul. All instance geared people had fun, zero aggro problems.Last night I go to do Anathema with guildies. All raid geared, 3 have mythicals. Luckily I had two swashies in the group so Swashie A had hate transfer on B and B had hate stensfer on me. One Swash, a ranger and an Assassin (yeah we were scout HEAVY) would yank aggro from me. The ranger and swash would hate dump but I usually had either insolence and resuce and the new fighter line snap tool up and I would slam that and have it back. Made things frantic but not undoable.gear makes a huge difference, a friend is at least as skilled a serker as I but his gear isn't as good as mine. Similar spell levels, similar skills and AA builds, but I out parse him, dps equals hate. Why do I out parse him? My gear.If you are in mastercrafted there is light at the end of the tunnel. Get to crafting or harvesting to make plat. Get the armor pieces off the broker that are decent (Raging onslaught has 3 pieces brokerable as an example) This will help you keep aggro and get gear in RoK instances. Then after that get into the new ones and get those dang shards. Some of the starting Shard armor is better than tier 1 and even some tier 2 raid stuff. Thats my plan at least to help level the field. Oh and yell at your ranger to remember his new aggro dump. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />As for build I took points out of int and put them into Str 4. Only 3 points though. I am thinking of dumping final Stam and just slam power potions, or get rid of end Int, since I read somewhere that its broke now and thats 2 more points for 5 in it. That helps with all hate including procs off of some our hate generating melee attacks and self buffs.Also do not be afraid of your taunts. Some zeks forgot we had them(not saying you did just checking to be sure. As soon as they light up I am slamming our taunts (not snap tools).

LygerT

12-01-2008, 04:42 PM

yes we still can have aggro issues, it's generally how your group buffing sequences go. often times i have to remind the illusionist to put IA on me instead of the scout if i'm having trouble, since my DA is down to about 60% self buffed now and that is with raid gear so i can imagine how non raid zerks are. the other issue is the hit rates in some of these zones... they are rediculous, like in guk my hit rate drops down to around 40%.. it's just stupid and even with hate transfers it can be a real pain maintaining aggro even in full offensive and that is with my bulwark of the unstoppable buff up running dual wield with my healers complaining about me not using a shield but then we move to another zone like the anchors in moors and i destroy the mobs doing 15k from doing 2-3k in guk.things are just screwy, there is no fluidity from one zone to the next, there is alot of randomness, too much in fact. i just hate getting to some of those mobs you have to roll the dice on knowing that skill is not what is going to get that mob to 0 before you do. but this is what we get from those HC raiders who wanted a "challenge", i already could tell you that if you continue to push it will continue to break the game driving the gap from casual to hardcore further away, bring more of these random fights to the game, increase the amount of work to do the same job we used to do but with no additional self satisfaction, etc. i just find as time goes on we get more skills, but they aren't necessarily making the game any easier for us, because even with a 2 hit stoneskin it doesn't matter if you are humping a wall for half a fight or beating up your groupmates or staring at your mob with grey buttons...basically i'm saying people do have some legitimate complaints, some not, but mainly i put the brunt of the issues people are having on the mobs themselves because people complained that tank and spank was too easy so now you play in a pinball world humping that wall in a perma stifle. now i'm thinking the guard mythical isn't such a pos... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> this isn't really a complaint about TSO, i'm still enjoying most of it except for a few of those encounters but i do feel a number of the tanks do have legitimate complaints, i don't feel the game should be easymode but it should be doable for players who do not have full RoK raid gear and mythicals doing 25k group DPS. mainly it's about being choosy about your group makeup, as with any expansion you will have to be picky about who you bring with you and the classes, if you are just spamming "LF3 more of any class" in open channels to fill out a group, don't expect to do well.

Mogzilla

12-01-2008, 06:07 PM

This thread reeks of newb, zerkers (along with SK's and ammended paladins) are the best heroic tanks in TSO hands down. Brawlers and guardians lag far behind in aoe aggro. Lol, monks get 1 encounter taunt and 2 weak aoes.75% of the trash in the new instances is linked encounters and a good proportion of the new bosses are also encounters.As far as raids go Zerkers, paladins and SK are the best offtanks and aoe tanks, and I have seen zerkers tank all ROK raid instance bosses easily.Zerkers (along with SK's) are the new black.

Gisallo

12-01-2008, 08:08 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread reeks of newb, zerkers (along with SK's and ammended paladins) are the best heroic tanks in TSO hands down. Brawlers and guardians lag far behind in aoe aggro. Lol, monks get 1 encounter taunt and 2 weak aoes.75% of the trash in the new instances is linked encounters and a good proportion of the new bosses are also encounters.As far as raids go Zerkers, paladins and SK are the best offtanks and aoe tanks, and I have seen zerkers tank all ROK raid instance bosses easily.Zerkers (along with SK's) are the new black.</blockquote>But dude the issues you mentioned are ones that are never going to fixed right now. I'm not even going to get into the Brawler argument because its darn clear SOE has NO idea what your role is, in raids especially, so I'm not getting into that mess.I may annoy some zerkers by saying this but currently, (maybe after fighter 2.0 it will change) the tank balance is to an extent borked. I remember when I rolled my first zerker the issue was "we are the offensive tank, they are the defensive tank, so why do they do almost as much dps as us?" This was when single target tanking was the norm. In this regard the balance is better than it has been in some time, BUT the degree of advantage a Guard has over us in Single target (and it is there) is less than the advantage we hold in terms of AoE. SOE however can't seem to make up its mind as to how to balance the tank. One year its offense vs defense. Now its Single Target vs AoE. The conflict here is nuts. With how the classes have evolved from lauch till now, when you look at class balance it has to be aggro/dps/surviveability. This is not too hard to balance when you were using the old ofense/defense model. Now you have Single/AoE. If you make an "AoE tank" at least functional in Single target across the board, you end up increasing his AoE ability. You increase the single target tanks ability in AoE to close the gap there (in all three realms), he is now leaps an bounds ahead again of the AoE tank in terms of single target, since anything that you can use to smack 5 guys can be focused on just 1. If this game was just about end game raiding where you had MT and OT this wouldn't be an issue. Throw Instances in though and then how SOE designs the content creates the mess.We can all say "my class needs this" or "that class needs to loose that". We an even see these changes implemented and all it will do is majorly bork up a sytem that is currently minorly borked because the base model is simply unworakable. Without a major overall of the classes from the base level and an overhaul of content design we are stuck either in an imperfect world for some classes (which this game has always been) or an endless mess of inconsistency for all classes using the current model of AoE bs Single target.There is some hope that a miracle is generated by 2.0. I hope the miracle comes. But Looking at past history my faith is less than strong.

Mogzilla

12-04-2008, 02:01 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread reeks of newb, zerkers (along with SK's and ammended paladins) are the best heroic tanks in TSO hands down. Brawlers and guardians lag far behind in aoe aggro. Lol, monks get 1 encounter taunt and 2 weak aoes.75% of the trash in the new instances is linked encounters and a good proportion of the new bosses are also encounters.As far as raids go Zerkers, paladins and SK are the best offtanks and aoe tanks, and I have seen zerkers tank all ROK raid instance bosses easily.Zerkers (along with SK's) are the new black.</blockquote>But dude the issues you mentioned are ones that are never going to fixed right now. I'm not even going to get into the Brawler argument because its darn clear SOE has NO idea what your role is, in raids especially, so I'm not getting into that mess.I may annoy some zerkers by saying this but currently, (maybe after fighter 2.0 it will change) the tank balance is to an extent borked. I remember when I rolled my first zerker the issue was "we are the offensive tank, they are the defensive tank, so why do they do almost as much dps as us?" This was when single target tanking was the norm. In this regard the balance is better than it has been in some time, BUT the degree of advantage a Guard has over us in Single target (and it is there) is less than the advantage we hold in terms of AoE. SOE however can't seem to make up its mind as to how to balance the tank. One year its offense vs defense. Now its Single Target vs AoE. The conflict here is nuts. With how the classes have evolved from lauch till now, when you look at class balance it has to be aggro/dps/surviveability. This is not too hard to balance when you were using the old ofense/defense model. Now you have Single/AoE. If you make an "AoE tank" at least functional in Single target across the board, you end up increasing his AoE ability. You increase the single target tanks ability in AoE to close the gap there (in all three realms), he is now leaps an bounds ahead again of the AoE tank in terms of single target, since anything that you can use to smack 5 guys can be focused on just 1. If this game was just about end game raiding where you had MT and OT this wouldn't be an issue. Throw Instances in though and then how SOE designs the content creates the mess.We can all say "my class needs this" or "that class needs to loose that". We an even see these changes implemented and all it will do is majorly bork up a sytem that is currently minorly borked because the base model is simply unworakable. Without a major overall of the classes from the base level and an overhaul of content design we are stuck either in an imperfect world for some classes (which this game has always been) or an endless mess of inconsistency for all classes using the current model of AoE bs Single target.There is some hope that a miracle is generated by 2.0. I hope the miracle comes. But Looking at past history my faith is less than strong.</blockquote>I will let you in on a little secret, you and SK's are now just as OP as guards were in ROK.With 75% of the content being multi mob encounters, you guys are outparsing scouts in heroic content and the difference in single target aggro is much smaller then it was in ROK with the reduced recast on rescue and all the new rescue like fighter abilities.Where is the AOE rescue? Oh thats right there isnt one, its all single target.

Obadiah

12-04-2008, 02:34 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is some hope that a miracle is generated by 2.0. I hope the miracle comes. But Looking at past history my faith is less than strong.</blockquote>I will let you in on a little secret, you and SK's are now just as OP as guards were in ROK.With 75% of the content being multi mob encounters, you guys are outparsing scouts in heroic content and the difference in single target aggro is much smaller then it was in ROK with the reduced recast on rescue and all the new rescue like fighter abilities.Where is the AOE rescue? Oh thats right there isnt one, its all single target.</blockquote>That doesn't make us as OP as Guards were in RoK. That's a content issue, not a class issue. And it's only true of heroic content, not raids. It was just as true in VoES for all of 2008. It's nothing new.I think a LITTLE bit of faith is due. When Aeralik & Co. sat down and focused on Ranger changes, they did OK. When they sat down and made Coercer & general chanter changes, they rocked. Yeah, they refused to address the blatant LIES in Adrenaline's description for a year, but when they actually ADDRESS things their recent track record could be lots worse.

Mogzilla

12-04-2008, 02:49 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>That doesn't make us as OP as Guards were in RoK. That's a content issue, not a class issue. And it's only true of heroic content, not raids. It was just as true in VoES for all of 2008. It's nothing new.I think a LITTLE bit of faith is due. When Aeralik & Co. sat down and focused on Ranger changes, they did OK. When they sat down and made Coercer & general chanter changes, they rocked. Yeah, they refused to address the blatant LIES in Adrenaline's description for a year, but when they actually ADDRESS things their recent track record could be lots worse.</blockquote>One of the main reasons guards were considered OP in ROK was because the expansion was custom tailored to their tanking strengths with little content that might expose their weaknesses (aoe aggro).The common complaint was that their dps was to high for the amount of survivability they had, which had more to do with a lack of aoe content then their anything else.SK also suffered from the same fate in ROK except worse because some of the basic mechanics of their class were very flawed, like 2 second cast times, crap itemization, etc.Now we have gone from ROK that was 80% one mob to TSO that is 80% more then one mob, and single target aggro has been boosted alot on all fighters with all the new rescue like abilities and the reduced recast on rescue.This expansion plays completely to SK and zerker strs and their weaknesses (single target aggro) have been boosted quite a bit with all the new rescue like abilities and the reduced cast time on rescue.Say what you want about guardians but they were never outparsing well played scouts on the zonewide in instances.I have seen zerkers just flat out own brigs and rangers in instances with tons of aoe content in terms of dps.

Elanjar

12-04-2008, 06:18 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>That doesn't make us as OP as Guards were in RoK. That's a content issue, not a class issue. And it's only true of heroic content, not raids. It was just as true in VoES for all of 2008. It's nothing new.I think a LITTLE bit of faith is due. When Aeralik & Co. sat down and focused on Ranger changes, they did OK. When they sat down and made Coercer & general chanter changes, they rocked. Yeah, they refused to address the blatant LIES in Adrenaline's description for a year, but when they actually ADDRESS things their recent track record could be lots worse.</blockquote>One of the main reasons guards were considered OP in ROK was because the expansion was custom tailored to their tanking strengths with little content that might expose their weaknesses (aoe aggro).The common complaint was that their dps was to high for the amount of survivability they had, which had more to do with a lack of aoe content then their anything else.SK also suffered from the same fate in ROK except worse because some of the basic mechanics of their class were very flawed, like 2 second cast times, crap itemization, etc.Now we have gone from ROK that was 80% one mob to TSO that is 80% more then one mob, and single target aggro has been boosted alot on all fighters with all the new rescue like abilities and the reduced recast on rescue.This expansion plays completely to SK and zerker strs and their weaknesses (single target aggro) have been boosted quite a bit with all the new rescue like abilities and the reduced cast time on rescue.Say what you want about guardians but they were never outparsing well played scouts on the zonewide in instances.I have seen zerkers just flat out own brigs and rangers in instances with tons of aoe content in terms of dps.</blockquote>Um.. ya i'd expect us to outparse brigs and rangers. They arent AE dps classes. Thats like comparing apples to oranges. AoE agro control for zerks comes from hitting all the mobs around us. Obviously ACT is going to show higher dps.

Mogzilla

12-04-2008, 06:57 PM

<cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Um.. ya i'd expect us to outparse brigs and rangers. They arent AE dps classes.</blockquote>And neither are zerkers, they supposed to be AE tanks.My bruiser is supposed to be a single target tank, yet I never out dps a well played aoe dps class like warlock, swash or conj on single targets.Heck I barely out dps a zerker on a single target, but they completely own me in a AE heavy environment

Xalmat

12-04-2008, 10:10 PM

Hey, speaking as my Conjuror, if my group tank outparses me, it's probably because he's buffed that way. To which I'm totally cool with!

Gisallo

12-05-2008, 06:57 AM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Um.. ya i'd expect us to outparse brigs and rangers. They arent AE dps classes.</blockquote>And neither are zerkers, they supposed to be AE tanks.My bruiser is supposed to be a single target tank, yet I never out dps a well played aoe dps class like warlock, swash or conj on single targets.Heck I barely out dps a zerker on a single target, but they completely own me in a AE heavy environmen</blockquote>Please note this is only in reference to your comments regarding zerkers out dpsing scouts.Well A) a zerker should out dps you in an AE environment. B) the zerker still uses dps as 80% of his AE aggro management. C) a single target classes will ALWAYS be at a disadvantage in an AE encounter. D) it is currently impossible to have a class defined as an AE class and not have them appear OP'd while maintaining relevancy in a single target context. E) it is still possible for a single target class to maintain relevance in an AE encounter (you should be assisting through the tank anyway right?) D)all warriors will often top or place higher than some scouts on the parse under the right circumstances because of abilities and gear they have that proc off of being the focus of attack. E) thus simply saying "zerkers do more dps than some scouts" means nothing without knowing class, gear, player skill and encounter circumstance.

LygerT

12-05-2008, 07:52 PM

maybe you should roll an AE class then Mogzilla, because we had very little AE content for quite some time..^ is my tiny violin playing a song just for you.btw, we only own on AE parses WHEN we are buffed to tank them. the other night i had a warlock trying to prove something, he proved he could do AE dps and find the mender still because i had no hate transfers and my dps mod was very low.i sat by and watched guards be default tanks for years, now you want to try and nerf us back down to being substandard now that there is content that we excel in? yea... how about you go back to your forum and try to fix your class from there instead, to which ALL brawlers need to figure out if they are DPS or tanks and not both then i may take their arguments seriously(when you are put in front of a group any tank appears to be DPS but that is NOT their only function and pretty soon you will likely see that tanks will be doing less DPS while tanking). as of now, it is all just alot of spattered hot air from an unfocused group of players, some wanting to be T1 DPS because they feel they are not tanks and others wanting to raid tank while retaining their DPS above all other tanks and also have the best raid buffs for desirability. i do agree you need a form of more survivability but i am not a brawler, you need to work out your own issues instead of trying to bring others down when they finally feel useful.

Mogzilla

12-09-2008, 12:24 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please note this is only in reference to your comments regarding zerkers out dpsing scouts.Well A) a zerker should out dps you in an AE environment. I never said the should not, just that the gap is far to large as it is, I prolly out dps a well play zerker in similar gear by roughly 500 dps on a single target on aoe content they beat me by 1-2k easily. B) the zerker still uses dps as 80% of his AE aggro management. Brawlers are no different. C) a single target classes will ALWAYS be at a disadvantage in an AE encounter. Right so for balance a aoe class should alwasy be at a disadvantage in a single target encounter, sorry but with all the new rescue like abilities and reduced recast on rescue its not the case. Most of the new rescue abilites are single target, where are the new aoe rescues? They help your weaknesses not ours. Even then zerker dps was not that much behind brawlers anyway. D) it is currently impossible to have a class defined as an AE class and not have them appear OP'd while maintaining relevancy in a single target context. False, the can boost the aoes of the single target classes to just under that of the aoe classes. E) it is still possible for a single target class to maintain relevance in an AE encounter (you should be assisting through the tank anyway right?) Um I am talking about tanking. D)all warriors will often top or place higher than some scouts on the parse under the right circumstances because of abilities and gear they have that proc off of being the focus of attack. Not scouts that know how to play. E) thus simply saying "zerkers do more dps than some scouts" means nothing without knowing class, gear, player skill and encounter circumstance. Let me say this again, a zerker (aoe tank) will out dps a brigand (single target dps) by alot on aoe content, but a bruiser (single target tank) will not out dps a well played warlock (aoe dps) on a single target.The simple solution is to bring guardian, brawler and monk aoe's up to par. Not as good as zerker or SK's but the gap now is far to large.</blockquote>

Mogzilla

12-09-2008, 12:34 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>maybe you should roll an AE class then Mogzilla, because we had very little AE content for quite some time..^ is my tiny violin playing a song just for you.Maybe you should have betrayed guard in ROK?btw, we only own on AE parses WHEN we are buffed to tank them. the other night i had a warlock trying to prove something, he proved he could do AE dps and find the mender still because i had no hate transfers and my dps mod was very low.i sat by and watched guards be default tanks for years, now you want to try and nerf us back down to being substandard now that there is content that we excel in?Nope, I dont want you nerfed, I want my class fixed. I only responded to this thread because of how silly the orginal post is. SK's and zerkers and now the best tanks in the game.yea... how about you go back to your forum and try to fix your class from there instead, to which ALL brawlers need to figure out if they are DPS or tanks and not both then i may take their arguments seriously(when you are put in front of a group any tank appears to be DPS but that is NOT their only function and pretty soon you will likely see that tanks will be doing less DPS while tanking). as of now, it is all just alot of spattered hot air from an unfocused group of players, some wanting to be T1 DPS because they feel they are not tanks and others wanting to raid tank while retaining their DPS above all other tanks and also have the best raid buffs for desirability. i do agree you need a form of more survivability but i am not a brawler, you need to work out your own issues instead of trying to bring others down when they finally feel useful. The dev stated that he wanted brawlers tanken on raids for a mix of dps and tanking, and not raid wide buffs, which is why the monk raid wide got nerfed.On single targets I feel we are fine, my surviability is not good as the plate tanks, but my dps is higher.Its on aoe content that we are [Removed for Content], quite simply our AA lines and CA aoe's suck and need improved.Should they be as good as zerkers or SK's? No, but the gap is far to large as it is now. </blockquote>

Grimmly

12-10-2008, 04:44 PM

So let me see......Zerkers finally get some love from the DEV's so all the other classes (who have had much love previously) come to our threads to b#$ch and moan about what needs to be done to their class?If you truly want your class to be fixed and want the DEV's to listen, write a very well informed, educated post that details what you purpose and how they can accommodate those proposals. If you make their jobs easier, then stuff gets done quicker (golden rule of IT).You posting in Zerker forums is not going to miraculously get < FILL IN CLASS HERE > fixed.

Mogzilla

12-10-2008, 05:44 PM

<cite>Grimmly@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let me see......Zerkers finally get some love from the DEV's so all the other classes (who have had much love previously) come to our threads to b#$ch and moan about what needs to be done to their class?Um yeah, bruisers were so loved during ROK, rofl, we were the last class anyone wanted on a raid.If you truly want your class to be fixed and want the DEV's to listen, write a very well informed, educated post that details what you purpose and how they can accommodate those proposals. If you make their jobs easier, then stuff gets done quicker (golden rule of IT).You posting in Zerker forums is not going to miraculously get < FILL IN CLASS HERE > fixed.Um once again the only reason I posted here is to highlight how silly the orginal post is. It reminds me of that post in the guardian forum during ROK taht complained about how bad gaurdians had it.</blockquote>

LygerT

12-10-2008, 06:17 PM

i'll give you that that this thread is stupid but it is no more stupid than a number of posts on ANY class forum, now if we all went and cross posted on those posts what good would it do? seriously?

Gisallo

12-11-2008, 03:47 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please note this is only in reference to your comments regarding zerkers out dpsing scouts.Well A) a zerker should out dps you in an AE environment. I never said the should not, just that the gap is far to large as it is, I prolly out dps a well play zerker in similar gear by roughly 500 dps on a single target on aoe content they beat me by 1-2k easily.Sorry I group with bruisers and I don't see that. See below about the whole AoE thing <shrug> C) a single target classes will ALWAYS be at a disadvantage in an AE encounter. Right so for balance a aoe class should alwasy be at a disadvantage in a single target encounter, sorry but with all the new rescue like abilities and reduced recast on rescue its not the case. Most of the new rescue abilites are single target, where are the new aoe rescues? They help your weaknesses not ours. Even then zerker dps was not that much behind brawlers anyway.The problem is this is impossible to do. Anything that is AoE applicable is Single target applicable. You bring up the AoE of "single target" tanks and you then have the imbalance you complain about on the "single target" rather than AoE side. Changing the focus of balance from offense/defense to single/AoE has created a system that inherently can not be balanced adequetely. People if they see a problem should be asking for a change in the measuring stick. Asking for anything else only perpetuates a "buff my toon" arms race. D) it is currently impossible to have a class defined as an AE class and not have them appear OP'd while maintaining relevancy in a single target context. False, the can boost the aoes of the single target classes to just under that of the aoe classes.and thus crete a new imbalance...see above. Using the current method there will ALWAYS be a percieved OP class. Largely though this will be content based. In an RoK environment no one would care because there would not be enough AoE encounters to make the single target tanks feel inadequete. E) it is still possible for a single target class to maintain relevance in an AE encounter (you should be assisting through the tank anyway right?) Um I am talking about tanking.then why mention how we occassionally out dps single target dps classes. You brought it up... not me. D)all warriors will often top or place higher than some scouts on the parse under the right circumstances because of abilities and gear they have that proc off of being the focus of attack. Not scouts that know how to play.Hmmm my main is a ranger. I have seen tanks spike due to procs and when all gear is equal, occassionally win on the parse. The fight has a lot to do with it (say the first named in SoH where the melee dps goes down because of all the AoE knockbacks BUT the tank if placed properly will maintain contact with the mob easier). E) thus simply saying "zerkers do more dps than some scouts" means nothing without knowing class, gear, player skill and encounter circumstance. Let me say this again, a zerker (aoe tank) will out dps a brigand (single target dps) by alot on aoe content, but a bruiser (single target tank) will not out dps a well played warlock (aoe dps) on a single target.well warlocks are T1 AoE dps, Brigands are T2 scout dps. Why don't we compare Assassins if you are going to mention Warlocks? The simple solution is to bring guardian, brawler and monk aoe's up to par. Not as good as zerker or SK's but the gap now is far to large. see above as to why this would just create a new imbalance. But then this would be fine for you wouldn't it since its your class? The problem is the measuring stick, that needs to be changed. To ask for buffs within a broken concept is begging for problems. Make Offensive/defensive primary and Single Target/AoE a more minor consideration and it could be possible, but never fully balanced because content would then rear its ugly head. I understand this stinks because it means someone will always appear OP and someone else feel UP BUT come next expansion I am sure Guards won't be as upset (they will probably go back to RoK style content). There is an additional dynamic involveing brawlers. They will never be fixed until SoE finally decides (or their community finally makes it clear) what they want to be. Right now there is a consensus among the Plate tanks that does not exist among Brawlers...we are tanks. Zerkers for the most part have always been saying "make us better tanks". Brawler forums though cover the gamut..."make us tanks", "make us dps", "make us utility". Usually if you have 100% of the people annoyed you prefer to keep the status quo so that you do not genuinely anger 2/3 of the people as you satisfy 1/3. Once that happens get back to me and I will be happy to hop on a Brawler forum saying "I am not a brawler but they are right!!!!" Thats what gets things done in this game, when other classes also say "they need help" the devs are pretty numb to a single class crying "woe is me" at this point, especially when the "woe" isn't even consistent across the class </blockquote></blockquote>

Mogzilla

12-11-2008, 04:05 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> C) a single target classes will ALWAYS be at a disadvantage in an AE encounter. Right so for balance a aoe class should alwasy be at a disadvantage in a single target encounter, sorry but with all the new rescue like abilities and reduced recast on rescue its not the case. Most of the new rescue abilites are single target, where are the new aoe rescues? They help your weaknesses not ours. Even then zerker dps was not that much behind brawlers anyway.The problem is this is impossible to do. Anything that is AoE applicable is Single target applicable. This is actually not correct, I acutally lose dps casting 2 of my aoes on single target mobs because 1) they dont hit that hard and 2) their long cast times intereput my auto attack. The only time I actually gain dps casting 2 of them in on 3 or more mobsSo that is false. My dps actually goes down when I fight 3 or more mobs because the fights tend to last longer, even though I am using my aoes. and thus crete a new imbalance...see above. Using the current method there will ALWAYS be a percieved OP class. Largely though this will be content based. In an RoK environment no one would care because there would not be enough AoE encounters to make the single target tanks feel inadequete. That never stopped zerkers and SK crying through the entirty of ROK about their guardian and paladin sister classes. Given how hooked up you got in TSO, I would say it worked. well warlocks are T1 AoE dps, Brigands are T2 scout dps. Why don't we compare Assassins if you are going to mention Warlocks? On 8 mobs, I gurantee you a zerker woudl beat a ranger or assasin in a parse. see above as to why this would just create a new imbalance. Nozeker single target dps = rougly 500 dps less then a bruiserzerker aoe dps = roughly 2k higher then a bruiser.bring the bruiser aoe dps to 500 less then zerker = balanced.There is an additional dynamic involveing brawlers. They will never be fixed until SoE finally decides (or their community finally makes it clear) what they want to be. Right now there is a consensus among the Plate tanks that does not exist among Brawlers...we are tanks. Zerkers for the most part have always been saying "make us better tanks". Brawler forums though cover the gamut..."make us tanks", "make us dps", "make us utility". Usually if you have 100% of the people annoyed you prefer to keep the status quo so that you do not genuinely anger 2/3 of the people as you satisfy 1/3. Once that happens get back to me and I will be happy to hop on a Brawler forum saying "I am not a brawler but they are right!!!!" Thats what gets things done in this game, when other classes also say "they need help" the devs are pretty numb to a single class crying "woe is me" at this point, especially when the "woe" isn't even consistent across the class The dev said that brawlers were a mix of tanking and dps. We are tanks with the least surviablity, but supposedly the most dps.The monk raid wide buff was even nerfed because he didnt want monks being brought along on raids for a single buff.On single targets this is true, brawlers will outdps the other tanks, but on more then one target its defineatly not true.I am not saying that we should out dps the supposed "aoe tanks", but the gap as it stands now is far far to large.</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

Gisallo

12-11-2008, 04:43 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> The problem is this is impossible to do. Anything that is AoE applicable is Single target applicable. This is actually not correct, I acutally lose dps casting 2 of my aoes on single target mobs because 1) they dont hit that hard and 2) their long cast times intereput my auto attack. The only time I actually gain dps casting 2 of them in on 3 or more mobsSo that is false. My dps actually goes down when I fight 3 or more mobs because the fights tend to last longer, even though I am using my aoes.ahh but my AoE attacks do more damage than my single target attacks so I see a dps improvement when I fire off an AoE when all my other CA's are greyed out. If they were to increase the damage of your AoE abilities to make up the dps disadvantage (the only way to resolve this situation) you have they would then be worth while for you in a single target fight since you have so few AoE's to begin with and they are not adding CA's or AA's at this point. Additionally they could add AoE components to current single target CA's BUT they would either have to keep the applicable single target power and cooldown or raise them and thus creat a different mess. This is the crux of my point. Also I find it funny how before you were saying that a Zerker does more single target damage now you are saying you do more, just not enough <shrug> That never stopped zerkers and SK crying through the entirty of ROK about their guardian and paladin sister classes. Given how hooked up you got in TSO, I would say it worked.because we lagged so far behind that we were seen as not viable tanks at all. I still see guards tanking even with the current imbalance though don't I.well warlocks are T1 AoE dps, Brigands are T2 scout dps. Why don't we compare Assassins if you are going to mention Warlocks? On 8 mobs, I gurantee you a zerker woudl beat a ranger or assasin in a parse.show me the numbers. I completely disagree. Only reason I can't post them is because the Assassin that is blowing me out of the water (completelY) has his mythical and raid armor to match. If gear was equal I do not see me gaining enough dps to make up the difference, but the numbers are not really relevant. bring the bruiser aoe dps to 500 less then zerker = balanced.again try doing that without throwing off the balance to the single target side. Not going to happen. Right now single target dps is where ti should be. AoE dps can't be balanced for the above noted reasons. Even guardians agree with this, but state that "since this is the system they gave us its the one we have to rail against". The dev said that brawlers were a mix of tanking and dps. We are tanks with the least surviablity, but supposedly the most dps.On single targets this is true, brawlers will outdps the other tanks, but on more then one target its defineatly not true.I will grant you that and have been trying to figure out which of you is supposed to be AoE. Has that even been ansered yet? Until thats answered noone is getting a buff.</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

LygerT

12-11-2008, 04:51 PM

here we go with musical colors again

Mogzilla

12-11-2008, 04:58 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> ahh but my AoE attacks do more damage than my single target attacks so I see a dps improvement when I fire off an AoE when all my other CA's are greyed out. If they were to increase the damage of your AoE abilities to make up the dps disadvantage (the only way to resolve this situation) It is not they only way to resolve the situation, fixing they way our melee hate proc works and making our wisdom line like your agi line would be a nice start.you have they would then be worth while for you in a single target fight since you have so few AoE's to beginYou just owned yourself here. I have 3 blue AOEs, 2 intate and 1 weak from AAs.How many do you have? If you increased the power of my two blue aoes, you would still have more AOE and more aoe dps. Also I find it funny how before you were saying that a Zerker does more single target damage now you are saying you do more, just not enough Completely false, l2r, I never once said a zerker does more single target dps then my bruiser. I said the gap between single target dps was not that much, but the gap between aoe aggro was huge. because we lagged so far behind that we were seen as not viable tanks at all. Now I really know you do not know what you are talking about. I have watched zerkers tank every bit of raid content in the previous expansion. Avatars and instanced. A monk and a bruiser also did it. Maybee not as easily as a guardian did, but guardians dont tank mass hordes of adds to well either.show me the numbers. I completely disagree. Only reason I can't post them is because the Assassin that is blowing me out of the water (completelY) has his mythical and raid armor to match. If gear was equal I do not see me gaining enough dps to make up the difference, but the numbers are not really relevant. Um I have seen zeker zonewides that are = to warlock zone wides in instances with a lot of aoe content. Assasin dps is mostly single target.again try doing that without throwing off the balance to the single target side. Not going to happen. Right now single target dps is where ti should be. AoE dps can't be balanced for the above noted reasons. False. They can be balanced the reasons you gave why they could not be was a bunch of nonsenes.Also I could also make the arguement that because brawlers are restricted to leather armor we should always be top in dps no mattter what the content, because of our inferior surviablity.</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

Elanjar

12-11-2008, 06:51 PM

See but how would they bring up your aoe dps without simultaneously enhancing your single target dps. You can't do a straight conversion between ST and AoE dps. The amount of dps is confounded by the fact that there is a range of mobs (#) and the fact that AoE dps tools can be utilized on ST's as well.On an encounter of just 2 mobs a zerkers dps will probably not be significantly different then a ST class but on a higher number of mobs our dps gets multiplied so of course its going to look like a huge difference. I already did the math for you on a different thread but it makes sense that on a 4 target encounter we should be 1-2k higher than you. 500dps difference in a 4 target encounter wouldnt really be that large since its only really 125dps difference per mob...

Gisallo

12-12-2008, 05:23 AM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>You just owned yourself here. I have 3 blue AOEs, 2 intate and 1 weak from AAs.</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>Well lets see prior to this expansion (dps only) I had two blue AoEs, one only a frontal cone, and a green encounter AoE. Now I have a taunt with an insanely long repop that has an added damage component. Thats a whole lot ain't it.For everything else that sums up my thoughts far more clearly than I ever could, please see the post above. I will be the first to admit I like to talk a lot and it translates into typing too much.I answered pretty much everything else on the other thread and am tired of banging my head against the wall. Please feel free to declare victory as I remain silent from this point forward, I am sure it will make you feel better.

Mogzilla

12-12-2008, 11:12 AM

<cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>See but how would they bring up your aoe dps without simultaneously enhancing your single target dps.Procs. And in the cases of brawlers I would argue that our dps should be scout like anyway due to the fact that we are limited to leather armor.You can't do a straight conversion between ST and AoE dps. The amount of dps is confounded by the fact that there is a range of mobs (#) and the fact that AoE dps tools can be utilized on ST's as well.Um thats not true, I already stated I lose dps as it interupts my auto attack if I cast 2 of my aoes on single target due to how weak they hit and their cast times. They only equal more dps on 3 mobs or more.</blockquote>

Elanjar

12-12-2008, 03:32 PM

That is true for any other class with blue aoe's. I dont use my blue AoE's if theres only 1 mob. Most of the time I dont even use it if there are two mobs. You dont need aoe tools to handle two mobs.Oh and if you want scout dps then you're gonna have to lose your avoidance and all your nifty abilities. Cause scouts dont get those... figure out if you want to be a tank or a scout b4 you come on the forums complaining

Gisallo

12-12-2008, 05:54 PM

<cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is true for any other class with blue aoe's. I dont use my blue AoE's if theres only 1 mob. Most of the time I dont even use it if there are two mobs. You dont need aoe tools to handle two mobs.Oh and if you want scout dps then you're gonna have to lose your avoidance and all your nifty abilities. Cause scouts dont get those... figure out if you want to be a tank or a scout b4 you come on the forums complaining</blockquote>Thats pretty much the point I made to him in another thread. If he wants to do more damage than us fine. Wants to be as surviveable fine or have more utility, thats fine too. The Brawler community wants to make up its mind though. Heck I have seen in one thread them complain "we are avoidance tanks so I should have more avoidance than a plate tank equipped with a shield" immediately followed by "we should do more dps by a lot" without any note of sacrificing of avoidance (the most powerful defense in the game) immediately followed then by "and we should have more utility". What they need to do is what we did. The vast majority of us simply said "give us more surviveability to make up for the lack of difference in single target dps and give us snap aggro so we can tank" Thats it, it was all we wanted period, to be tanks and have the tools to be just as viable. If you can do the same job and its just "harder" or "more difficult" than another class, guess what, that the definition of something either being under powered or over powered isn't it?SOE doesn't know what to do with Brawlers and the Brawlers don't help SOE by not coming to a consensus.

Mogzilla

12-14-2008, 03:38 PM

<cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh and if you want scout dps then you're gonna have to lose your avoidance and all your nifty abilities. Cause scouts dont get those... figure out if you want to be a tank or a scout b4 you come on the forums complaining</blockquote>Um scouts dont get nifty abilities? Ignoring bards, scouts get the best debuffs in the game, in addition to some other nice buffs like hate transfers.Brawlers are a hybrid of tanking and dps, that is exaclty what the dev said we were and the reason the monk raidwide was nerfed. He said he did not intent for monks to be dps/buff bots, he wanted them to be a mixture of dps, tanking, and raid wide buff.Our suviability is below the other plate tanks, it stands to reason our dps should be higher single target or many.

LygerT

12-14-2008, 04:37 PM

so are you going to tell me we do more single target dps than you? should i say it? sure, if they're going this route they should maybe make one brawler into an AE and one single target but that still wouldn't cure anything, instead it would inflate your issues.

Mogzilla

12-15-2008, 11:50 AM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>so are you going to tell me we do more single target dps than you?</blockquote>no you dont, but the difference is not very much from what I have seen.Both you and SK's will be about 500 dps less then a brawler on a single target, but your aoe dps will be at least 1-2k more

LygerT

12-15-2008, 05:31 PM

then perhaps add a few more AEs to both brawlers to even it out.now go, hopefully as some sort of representative for brawler kind, because i have seen many try but they all had different ideals.

Grimmly

12-19-2008, 05:15 PM

Well the @#%@%$! whiners win!! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" />All Zerkers might want to stroll over to the Combat threads and actually read what will be done on O and D Stances by Devs. It appears to be an ALL fighter adjustment that is slated for GU51, but is not on test currently.Link: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?&topic_id=437332" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=437332</a>