Mass Warding [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Bardrick

11-25-2008, 01:41 AM

I was doing some math here, and just got stumped.I have a level 71 defiler, and kinda shelfed him. Then I leveled a fury up to 70. Now it seems that the fury is better at catch up, where the Defiler stops it up front (No *&%#$ huh). However once the damage is done, it seems like defiler can't ever catch up. Especially when AOE damage is done. Course the fury sucks at spike damage.But according my math, the fury is able to lay down more heals faster in the same period of time.So, if the fury heals more faster, why does the defiler seem to do a better job, and his more needed? Even in runneye2 and unmentored TSO dungeons, people prefer the defiler.Okay, now I need another beer with all this.

zerkerANGST

11-25-2008, 02:31 AM

I have both a fury and a defiler, neither are level 80 and both are on pvp servers.Defilers are needed on raids for a lot of different reasons (which will be extrapolated upon by level 80 defilers), these reasons include but are not exclusive to the type of buffs the defiler produces, the debuffs the defiler can do to a mob, and most importantly the ability to prevent damage being done to a single target better than even a fury can.If done correctly, a defiler can single ward and group ward the MT, and both of the ward amounts will be stacked upon one another, which is a considerable amount of damage that is just prevented. With any other type of healer in the group (temp/inquis, fury/warden) the ability to negate damage when the tank is getting smacked on for large numbers creates a better survival situation.Fury on the other hand (specifically fury) has no real debuffs worthy of casting, and the buffs they do have are only useful to casters. While there heals are better suited for delivering health to the group, they are also very capable of providing quick spurts of health to single targets in and out of the group they are in. Faster cast times allow furies to provide the life saving 2% extra health needed to keep a player from droping, and delivering it in a time of need.In a raid sense, the defiler is overall a better class. They can be used in the MT or OT group. They prevent damage before it happens, and allow players to recover better after damage has happened. Where fury is the most agile of all the healers, and does not truly belong in any main group within a raid. However all of these things change on a PvP server. In pvp, defilers slothful cast times make them near useless in solo and group, where furys are gods because of there huge burst damage and powerful fast casting heals.More will come and tell you about the differences at higher levels, but this is what I have to say. If you want to play a healer, and you play on a PvE server, play a defiler. They are such an awesome class to play, very enjoyable and memorable experience. You will often do things that will make your group members drop their jaws in awe. However, if you play on a pvp server save your time and roll a druid.

Dimmulola

11-25-2008, 09:24 AM

example:Tank has 15k hitpointsDefiler healer15k hp's of tank +3k single ward + 5k group ward = 23k HP's before tank diesTank gets hit twice in one second by a 9K hit, tank has 5K HP's left... wheeeFury healer15k hp's of the tankTank gets hit twice in one second by a 9K hit, dead tank...Its that easy

Sonorod

11-25-2008, 11:53 AM

<cite>Daletumxa@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>example:Tank has 15k hitpointsDefiler healer15k hp's of tank +3k single ward + 5k group ward = 23k HP's before tank diesTank gets hit twice in one second by a 9K hit, tank has 5K HP's left... wheeeFury healer15k hp's of the tankTank gets hit twice in one second by a 9K hit, dead tank...Its that easy</blockquote>Except you have to also consider the fact that Defilers are single-handedly the best priest to buff raw hit points so it looks more like this:Defiler tank: 17K HPS plus wards, yadda yadda.Fury tank: 14K HPS = 1.5 shotted.

Besual

11-26-2008, 11:20 AM

<cite>Sonorod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Daletumxa@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>example:Tank has 15k hitpointsDefiler healer15k hp's of tank +3k single ward + 5k group ward = 23k HP's before tank diesTank gets hit twice in one second by a 9K hit, tank has 5K HP's left... wheeeFury healer15k hp's of the tankTank gets hit twice in one second by a 9K hit, dead tank...Its that easy</blockquote>Except you have to also consider the fact that Defilers are single-handedly the best priest to buff raw hit points so it looks more like this:Defiler tank: 17K HPS plus wards, yadda yadda.Fury tank: 14K HPS = 1.5 shotted.</blockquote>Well, Templars buff few more raw HPs. Not much but enough to beat us as "Best raw HP buffer" <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Xaile

11-28-2008, 03:55 PM

<cite>Besual wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sonorod wrote:</cite>Well, Templars buff few more raw HPs. Not much but enough to beat us as "Best raw HP buffer" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>*shrug* Depends if you count Coagulate as a HP buff. I certainly do, since it's about 1200 damage the tank has to take before they die (which is basically what hit points are).Then again, once everyone gets all AA'ed out with TSO, who knows how much HP Templars will buff relative to Defilers? (too lazy to use a calculator to figure out)

Sedenten

11-29-2008, 05:41 AM

At the raid level, templars can buff quite a few more hit points than us (set bonus that makes Aegolism more effective, mythical makes Aegolism a group buff, and at least two AA's for TSO that raise the amount of hit points their buffs give). Wards are always going to be the first defense, so by design they are the most effective in the majority of situations.Since the original poster is comparing druids to us, though, the simple explanation is that regens very rarely run to full effectiveness (i.e. a lot of the ticks in a typical cast of regen will heal for 0). Druids really shine when the damage is coming in fast and heavy on a group and they have all of their heal over times ticking away. With a shaman the idea is to prevent the damage before it occurs, so our wards almost always (99% of the time) realize their maximum potential and block the damage before the target even starts dropping in health.

Ceolus

12-01-2008, 03:55 AM

Since we're discussing druids and shamansIs it normal that wardens can outheal a defiler by a bit when AOE damage is huge in an instance fight? (like in the new vampire instance where the sun hits for 2k every 2 seconds or so in an AOE?)I always thought Defilers were supposed to beat other healers 99% of the time; am I doing something wrong? I justify it by saying a bunch of hots on an entire group add up more than a group ward and group heal every few seconds..not sure though.In what type of situation in an isntance should druids or clerics be beating me?

Sedenten

12-01-2008, 05:55 PM

<cite>Ceolus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since we're discussing druids and shamansIs it normal that wardens can outheal a defiler by a bit when AOE damage is huge in an instance fight? (like in the new vampire instance where the sun hits for 2k every 2 seconds or so in an AOE?)I always thought Defilers were supposed to beat other healers 99% of the time; am I doing something wrong? I justify it by saying a bunch of hots on an entire group add up more than a group ward and group heal every few seconds..not sure though.In what type of situation in an isntance should druids or clerics be beating me?</blockquote>Heavy AE fights will be where druids excel. Neither of the shaman classes are built to keep up with damage that is coming in quick, though we are great at outright preventing damage from occurring. Druids were always the best at pure burst healing, though their regens are largely wasted in a majority of situations (especially when grouped with the other two healing archtypes). Also, keep in mind that both druid classes can make their regens tick faster than the default (to less than a second between each tick in some cases). When there's heavy damage incoming, that results in a huge amount of healing. Add to this that the sum of all ticks of a druid's regen spell is significantly more than our respective ward and they have a lot of potential healing in one punch.Clerics are also better at us when the damage is coming in too fast for our wards to keep up. For steady damage where our wards are constantly falling, they will more than likely beat us due to the way reactives work. Like druids, they do have the backdraw of reactive charges being wasted or overhealing the majority of the time. Cleric reactives also can potentially heal for much more than our respective wards will absorb. Alongside reactives, templars also have a lot of passive reactionary type debuffs. For example, one of the templar debuffs make the mob proc a fast ticking heal over time on players that strike that mob with melee. An entire raid of melees can potentially get this heal over time on themselves. Another causes the same mob to proc a group heal on any player they strike. Again, this can be an immense amount of healing if the mob AE's and then procs this on one group in a raid. Add to this other tools like a debuff that causes mobs to proc an AE heal on death, unyielding benediction (stoneskin proc for a tank) and other tools and clerics can more than exceed our healing in a tough situation.The big deal about wards is that they are almost never wasted. Whether the hit is 10 hits of 500 damage or a single 5k hit, a 5k group ward is going to heal it's full amount. A cleric's group reactive fires a max of 9 times (I think) for something like 800 damage per. With the previous scenario (10 hits of 500 damage), that same group reactive would heal for a total of 9 x 500 = 4500. 9 x 300 of that (or 2700) would be wasted and heal nothing. If you put a shaman in group with a cleric, the cleric reactives will continue to proc charges even while our wards are blocking 100% of the hits (i.e. 100% wasted reactives for the cleric). Druid regen ticks whether or not damage is incoming, so they are in the same boat with wasted heals. Both druids and clerics have more potential healing on their reactives than regens than our similar wards, but they rarely reach their potentials except under heavy circumstances. In those heavy circumstances, expect a druid or cleric healer to match or exceed your healing.

Bardrick

12-02-2008, 03:00 PM

So, after reading all of the responces, why have a shaman in the MT group of a raid? Yes bearing in mind that raid mobs hit for about 2500 a wack. So, the mobs burn through all our wards in 3 hits.

Sedenten

12-02-2008, 07:33 PM

<cite>Bardrick wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, after reading all of the responces, why have a shaman in the MT group of a raid? Yes bearing in mind that raid mobs hit for about 2500 a wack. So, the mobs burn through all our wards in 3 hits.</blockquote>Have you ever been in a diffcult raid with no shaman? The healing difficulty on that encounter goes up immensely. The same can be said if no clerics are in a raid as well. Wards are one of the foundations of healing in the game, due to the fact they buffer incoming damage. When our wards fall, reactives and regens are there to fill the void while the wards are replaced. My own single target ward crits for up to around 5.5k while in the MT group. I constantly cycle that single target ward on the tank every 3-4 seconds (I can't recall my reuse timer currently and am at work). With group ward hitting for as high as 9k, I'm giving the tank a 14k-15k buffer over their max hit points. Imagine not having that buffer there to slow down the incoming damage. Clerics and druids alone cannot make up the difference on a rough encounter.

Ceolus

12-03-2008, 03:30 AM

<cite>Sedenten wrote:</cite><blockquote>My own single target ward crits for up to around 5.5k while in the MT group. I constantly cycle that single target ward on the tank every 3-4 seconds (I can't recall my reuse timer currently and am at work). With group ward hitting for as high as 9k..</blockquote>Are you counting gravitas, arm of erollisi, totem on ankexfen, and stuff like that when you say your single target ward crits for up to 5.5k? +Heals can't exceed something like 15% of the ward's base.My group ward (m1) has a crit high of 7.2k with gravitas and coercive healing (I have only 380 +heal). Are your +heals at like 1500 or is this from the Fury mythical I hear about? I must know your secrets to such large wards <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Besual

12-03-2008, 05:22 AM

Sedenten

12-03-2008, 12:14 PM

<cite>Ceolus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sedenten wrote:</cite><blockquote>My own single target ward crits for up to around 5.5k while in the MT group. I constantly cycle that single target ward on the tank every 3-4 seconds (I can't recall my reuse timer currently and am at work). With group ward hitting for as high as 9k..</blockquote>Are you counting gravitas, arm of erollisi, totem on ankexfen, and stuff like that when you say your single target ward crits for up to 5.5k? +Heals can't exceed something like 15% of the ward's base.My group ward (m1) has a crit high of 7.2k with gravitas and coercive healing (I have only 380 +heal). Are your +heals at like 1500 or is this from the Fury mythical I hear about? I must know your secrets to such large wards <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>5.5k was a slight overrounding on my part. The highest I've noticed since the expansion was a 5.3k single ward. This is using M1 version with fury mythical buff (having a wife that plays a fury is nice!) and Totem of Ankexfen proc buff up. I also am currently using the expansion legendary set arms (8% bonus to all heal amounts) and have the AA maxed for single target ward in the new ToS tree (higher base and crit amounts). We do have a paladin in our raids, and their raid-wide buff was changed to add a flat % to base heals (5% is what his grants, I believe). Our guild coerer has been on vacation since before the expansion launched, so my single wards would likely be higher when she returns. When I do get gravitas my single ward can spike for higher, though I usually am not paying attention to the amounts when the buff is on. Last night I did have a few 9.1k group wards in an instance group with my wife. I did not have coercive healing or dirge in group, so that was just fury mythical, AA's, earring and my arms. Without fury mythical I sit at around 720-750 heal amount depending on what gear I am wearing at the time.With healing stance on beta, I was getting crazy numbers with all of my wards. I haven't yet amassed the amount of points to get the stance on live, though.