[Monk] Class concerns - The Not-So Balanced Fighter [Archive]

mr23sgte

11-18-2008, 03:34 PM

My as well get this thread started early.........[Monk]Tons of ideas for worthwile AA's in Beta (Edited Below Two posts from original beta posters ideas) that were ignored. IMO We are clearly the worst SINGLE and ENCOUNTER Tank in the game.Will anything be changed for the Monk Class now that TSO is Live?Devastation Fist Adjustment : 5 minute Recast now - 4 Min 28 Seconds if you spec Brawler agility line. Recast Needs to be lowered or damage upped.Monk Raidwide was slightly changed from 14% to 9.8% **needs an attribute addedBrawler Tree.Taunt Increase : Fine but needs to apply to Dragonrage aswell.AoE Damage : Rubbish, 15% damage increase is crap and the recast reduction is half what it needs to be. Needs to be atleast 5% damage increase, 2% crit increase, 0.2 second recast reduction per point.Shocking Hands : This thing is so laughable its sad, 15% dmg increase which is like an extra 30 dmg per trigger, oooh. Well I most spend points on that waste of space. Needs atleast 5% dmg increase, 1 extra trigger per point and 5 points makes it group/raid wide.Monk Tree.Peel Increase : Take it out and replace it with group encounter lock, AE taunt, DPS or Utility, make DragonRage encounterwide/ In my opinion, this aa should add group taunt components. With TSO, we already have too many single target taunts. What we really need is group taunt enhancement. Not to say, most TSO content is multple encountersBite of the Cobra : Needs Debuff componet increase added /rankFocused Follow Up : Doesn't do what it says on the Tin. It doesn't add an additional Higher Damage Attack when all 5 Hit. Before you spends AA in this. the Art looks something like this: 300-500 Attack, followed by 4 250-350 Attacks. After the AA it looks like 400-700, followed by 5 250-350 attacks. (yes I made the numbers up as an example).New Monk Heal AA that replaced Group FD AA ***Heal AA that will Negate our Armor set bonus to lessen heal recast due to cap.Mitigating Blows : Needs longer duration or shorter recastBob and Weave : Just awful, we don't need an inferior Tsunami on a longer recast. Replace it with DPS or Utility. / Is it a joke? It's the worst class aa comparing to all other fighters. What's the point to have this aa? especially it lasts only 12 sec with 4 minutes reuse timer. The duration needs to be extended to 30 sec or reuse timer lowered to 1 minute. Hidden Openings : Really why do we need yet another single target snap aggro./ It's another junk aa. Sigh. Sorry to say that but it is really a junk. Why? We can reduce the reuse timer of rescue and we get another new single target taunt from the end aa of fighter line. We have too many single target taunt abilities in this expansion and 75% of group content in this expansion is multiple encounters. Monk has worst aoe damage, least and worst group taunt ability all over the fighters. I can foresee TSO is a disaster for most monks as a group tank since they are not going to hold aggro in most multiple encounters. Also, monk gets little to nothing dps boost from TSO aa, when a group is LF dpser, monk is the worst option as dpser. I highly recommend that this aa should be changed to a group aoe with similar damage and stun component. Overall, monk aa is a huge design failure. For designers, you want to classify tanks to single target tanks and mutiple targets tanks, don't forget that mutliple targets tanks can use their multiple targets taunt/aa abilities on single target as well. It makes them overpowered in both single target and mutiple targets in aggro management.

Xanrn

11-18-2008, 03:43 PM

Nice we got moved from the Main Forum to the Forum the Devs Forgot, lovely.

mr23sgte

11-18-2008, 03:49 PM

Yep - They will never read it here :O(or hereh<a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/monks/34985-tso-monk-issue-list.html">ttp://www.eq2flames.com/monks/3498....issue-list.html</a>

ShinGoku

11-18-2008, 04:30 PM

Great just like in beta, we get ignored again... Whoop.

Yliax

11-21-2008, 12:36 PM

Yeah, I am tired of not fitting under "tank" or "DPS". I certainly can't tank...especially with the increasing difficulty of mobs and my DPS isn't really up to snuff either. Swashies tank as well if not better and do a ton more DPS.

ShinGoku

11-21-2008, 04:11 PM

As is my swashy DOES tank better than my monk and he has dps running out his pores!Monk just isn't fun anymore... *cries*

Khandor

11-21-2008, 08:29 PM

It's really sad to be left out of a lot of things and not get any responses from any developers regarding the CLEARLY VISABLE issue that the monk class has. I dunno, really seems like with each new expansion that the monk class becomes more of something slapped together than something with actual thought behind it.It's sad, because monks are probably the coolest class in the game, yet the most neglected.

Xanrn

11-23-2008, 06:24 PM

The Problems I see with the Monk Class post-TSO.We have been firmly taken out of the Raid Tank running for both Main Tank and Off Tank, leaving the 4 Plate Tanks in a somewhat balanced 4 way tug of war. Fine I see why they did that.I don't see why though our TSO AAs were designed with Tanking as the prime factor.The DPS increase from our AAs is utterly unnoticeable, so much so I fail to see actually spending points in any but the Five Rings as worthwhile. The DPS increase from the revamped KoS Str line is a case of swapping dps for slightly more dps. The change to Critical mechanics didn't help Monks as much as the Bruisers.The Utility increase in lue of the unwarranted nerf to our raidwide is 4 steps back to take 5 steps forward.Then we have the main problem the seemingly utter disregard the Devs have for us a class.Everytime they come into threads about Monk problems, they post something utterly irrevelent to the topic being discussed and then disappear without addressing the problems. Or in the case of Fyreflyte post something that can be taken as pure sarcasm or complete disregard for the problem ie his "No" when asked if he could fix the appalling sub-par TSO Monk Fabled set.Feedback in game, send private messages to Aeralik/Fyreflyte on this board.

ShinGoku

11-24-2008, 07:17 PM

My biggest bone of contention with the new AAs and our class in general is that when we flip overto defense stance, our ability to aggro effectivly falls apart.Yes its nice they have added some AGI to the stance but my dps vanishes the second I need to actuallytake a couple of hits. I was really hoping the new tree would offer some effective DPS options so I could actuallykeep my aggro via damage etc but it didn't happen.If anything there should have been an AA that removed all the penalties from being in the various stanceslike zerkers / guardians get. This would be a biiig part of our problem solved.As is, the AAs we did get and I loosely paraphrase Aeralik, are being used to patch some "not so good" AAs from the EoFtree. Some monks in beta asked if we could perhaps have a review of the EoF tree which might make the new AAsmake more sense in context but it was ignored.

Aull

11-24-2008, 07:48 PM

<cite>Ummudien@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Problems I see with the Monk Class post-TSO.We have been firmly taken out of the Raid Tank running for both Main Tank and Off Tank, leaving the 4 Plate Tanks in a somewhat balanced 4 way tug of war. Fine I see why they did that.I don't see why though our TSO AAs were designed with Tanking as the prime factor.The DPS increase from our AAs is utterly unnoticeable, so much so I fail to see actually spending points in any but the Five Rings as worthwhile. The DPS increase from the revamped KoS Str line is a case of swapping dps for slightly more dps. The change to Critical mechanics didn't help Monks as much as the Bruisers.The Utility increase in lue of the unwarranted nerf to our raidwide is 4 steps back to take 5 steps forward.Then we have the main problem the seemingly utter disregard the Devs have for us a class.Everytime they come into threads about Monk problems, they post something utterly irrevelent to the topic being discussed and then disappear without addressing the problems. Or in the case of Fyreflyte post something that can be taken as pure sarcasm or complete disregard for the problem ie his "No" when asked if he could fix the appalling sub-par TSO Monk Fabled set.Feedback in game, send private messages to Aeralik/Fyreflyte on this board.</blockquote> I am not trying to make this insulting but monks are a fighter class (tanks pure and simple) and this is the reason tanking aa's in tso are a prime factor and not dps. I have a friend who plays a monk that thinks monks are pure dps, but complains when the brigand in the group is out dps'ing his monk by 600-800 dps. Go figure. Sure monks can do decent dps (very well if played correctly and buffed good) but if dps goes any higher than it's current potential a monk will be truely the best class to play and would shun out the rest of the fighter classes.Now no fighter should actually out dps a true dps class nor should a true dps class take/avoid hits as a true fighter (tank) should either. Monks are possibly the best everyday norrath group and instance tank there are for single target aggro. Sure monks suffer slightly in aoe aggro retention but again if monks dps like scouts, hold aoe aggro/dps with no problems, tank, and solo the way they do there would be no other reason for the other 5 fighters.Again I am not trying to be insulting at all. Just many players do not know that monks are a fighter class and not a scout class.

Couching

11-24-2008, 08:40 PM

For best single target agro, it's bruiser, not monk.

Aull

11-24-2008, 09:27 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>For best single target agro, it's bruiser, not monk.</blockquote>Interesting! Care to elaborate on why? I do think that bruisers are good spike single target aggro short duration. Mine does a fair job. However when a monk has rising dragon (I think that is the name of it) active, +140 self haste, and both taunts up makes for some very impressive up front and sustained hate.What is rising dragon's proc rate at? I think it is like 10 ppm with 848 threat on the master lvl. I could be wrong on that. Please correct that if I am.Thanks

Couching

11-24-2008, 09:37 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>For best single target agro, it's bruiser, not monk.</blockquote>Interesting! Care to elaborate on why? I do think that bruisers are good spike single target aggro short duration. Mine does a fair job. However when a monk has rising dragon (I think that is the name of it) active, +140 self haste, and both taunts up makes for some very impressive up front and sustained hate.What is rising dragon's proc rate at? I think it is like 10 ppm with 848 threat on the master lvl. I could be wrong on that. Please correct that if I am.Thanks</blockquote>Dps, enough said. The gap of dps between monk and bruiser after crit change on CA damages is significant in group situtation. In raid, it's HUGE.Not to say, bruiser has drag, control hate, D&C and KO combo. Bruiser has by far more tools than monk on single target agro.Don't forget you are talking group situation. Too many classes have group haste buff. The advantage of 200 haste, monk, vs 140 haste, bruiser, is almost zero due to diminishing return.

Aull

11-24-2008, 10:11 PM

Thanks for the reply. I personally haven't seen this huge difference since the change to how ca's crit. All looking the same to me.

Couching

11-25-2008, 03:56 AM

Even you didn't feel any different, the bruiser dps is better than monk in group in most cases since too many classes have group haste buffs. Also, bruisers have more tools than monks to hold agro.Bruiser has best single target agro now and before. It didn't change.

Xanrn

11-25-2008, 01:19 PM

Yes but we are not a Fighter Class.If we were a fighter class they would have balanced us when they did the 4 Plate Classes, they didn't they left us out in the cold.This is the exact reason we are in this mess, the plate Tanks cry when we ask for Tanking upgrades and the DPS cry when we ask for DPS upgrades. We get told "you shouldn't be able to Tank aswell as Plate Tanks" or "you shouldn't be able DPS aswell as real DPS classes" atleast once every thread.Its either that or that [Removed for Content] idiotic use of our ability to "solo", oh wow I can rip threw solo mobs not like anyone else can do that. Certainly not Bruisers, Rangers, Assassins, Brigands, Swashbucklers, Necros, Conjurers, Coercers, Illussionists, Berzerkers, Shadowknights, Furys.I also find if monks dps like scouts, hold aoe aggro/dps with no problems, tank, and solo the way they do there would be no other reason for the other 5 fighters coming from a Bruiser utterly hillarious. Not to mention an utter load of bull.You out DPS us, you out Tank us, you out single aggro us, you out aoe aggro us and you out solo us.We are by far the worst tank for instances, yeah maybe the old school RoK ones, but all the new ones are full of group encounters I can barely control and repeatdly loose aggro on one or more of the mobs and I am a vp geared, mythicaled, fully mastered except for desolating fist Monk.We are not the best single target aggro, Bruisers, Guardians, Paladins are better.We are the worst aoe dps/aggro.Our single target DPS lead has been massively erroded against Berzerkers and Shadowknights. While Bruisers got a big boost.We are the worst tank both group and raid, not that group is that hard, when Rogues can tank with ease.See your post Aull is all well and nice, but considering I have seen Plate Tanks post the exact opposite in the Tank Balance thread, doesn't mean jack.We are stuck firmly between 2 groups of people, neither of them want us and both tell us to go the other group.There is no room in this game for a 5th/6th tank Class, period.

Aull

11-25-2008, 02:41 PM

I read over my post and I have to admit it does sound like a dev could have possibly written it. I understand your frustration(s) cause we all have them at one point or another in the everchanging game we play. Again I was not aiming my perceptions at you personally. Sorry if I have offended you or anyone. Its just a game to me.However if monks are not listed as a fighter class I would to know when this took place. I must be a bad player too cause I see a few of my monk friends tank and dps very very well and they make it look cool doing it. Anyway not trying to start a [Removed for Content] contest here. I do agree with the "you shouldn't be able to tank as well as plate tanks" and you shouldn't be able to out dps true dps classes" cause I hear this statement too and it was frequent a while back.In all reality I think that brawlers are truely tanks according to what I have read on anything SOE officially has printed. So yes we should be able to hold our own with the plate tanks. Not equal too but not less than either if that makes any sense.Aoe aggro is and will possibly always will be both brawlers pit fall. I can live with that. I just don't like the possiblity that individuality is being lost in the game. I have no concerns with my brawler becoming this aoe machine like a paladin, sk, or zerker. If aoe is needed I will either play my zerker or sk.Thanks.

Couching

11-25-2008, 03:11 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I read over my post and I have to admit it does sound like a dev could have possibly written it. I understand your frustration(s) cause we all have them at one point or another in the everchanging game we play. Again I was not aiming my perceptions at you personally. Sorry if I have offended you or anyone. Its just a game to me.However if monks are not listed as a fighter class I would to know when this took place. I must be a bad player too cause I see a few of my monk friends tank and dps very very well and they make it look cool doing it. Anyway not trying to start a [Removed for Content] contest here. I do agree with the "you shouldn't be able to tank as well as plate tanks" and you shouldn't be able to out dps true dps classes" cause I hear this statement too and it was frequent a while back.In all reality I think that brawlers are truely tanks according to what I have read on anything SOE officially has printed. So yes we should be able to hold our own with the plate tanks. Not equal too but not less than either if that makes any sense.Aoe aggro is and will possibly always will be both brawlers pit fall. I can live with that. I just don't like the possiblity that individuality is being lost in the game. I have no concerns with my brawler becoming this aoe machine like a paladin, sk, or zerker. If aoe is needed I will either play my zerker or sk.Thanks.</blockquote>It is not true.Bruiser has much better aoe damage and faster reuse on encounter taunt. Not to say, after 170 aa, you can make D&C an encounter lock every 1 and half minute. Also, bruiser is best in single target agro, better dps and more single agro tools than monk.In TSO, 75% encounters are mutliple encounters. If you statement stands, monks can be deleted in this expansion since aoe agro is needed in almost every heroic instance in TSO.No body asks aoe taunt or damage as much as sk or zerker. But making monk as worst aoe agro tank and most monks have aoe agro issues is not acceptable since our primary role is tanking in heroic group.Aoe tank didn't have issue on single target but single target tank has issue on aoe agro is clearly out of balance. It's called overpowered.The current issues of monks are that we are on the bottom of food chain in fighter classes. Bruiser is superior in very aspect no matter in tanking, dps, singel target agro and aoe agro.I can stand that brusier has better dps and agro than monk since they are offensive brawler. But being offensive brawler with better tanking capability than monk, the defensive brawler, is totally unacceptable for myself.

Aull

11-25-2008, 03:49 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I read over my post and I have to admit it does sound like a dev could have possibly written it. I understand your frustration(s) cause we all have them at one point or another in the everchanging game we play. Again I was not aiming my perceptions at you personally. Sorry if I have offended you or anyone. Its just a game to me.However if monks are not listed as a fighter class I would to know when this took place. I must be a bad player too cause I see a few of my monk friends tank and dps very very well and they make it look cool doing it. Anyway not trying to start a [Removed for Content] contest here. I do agree with the "you shouldn't be able to tank as well as plate tanks" and you shouldn't be able to out dps true dps classes" cause I hear this statement too and it was frequent a while back.In all reality I think that brawlers are truely tanks according to what I have read on anything SOE officially has printed. So yes we should be able to hold our own with the plate tanks. Not equal too but not less than either if that makes any sense.Aoe aggro is and will possibly always will be both brawlers pit fall. I can live with that. I just don't like the possiblity that individuality is being lost in the game. I have no concerns with my brawler becoming this aoe machine like a paladin, sk, or zerker. If aoe is needed I will either play my zerker or sk.Thanks.</blockquote>It is not true.Bruiser has much better aoe damage and faster reuse on encounter taunt. Not to say, after 170 aa, you can make D&C an encounter lock every 1 and half minute. Also, bruiser is best in single target agro, better dps and more single agro tools than monk.Help me here. Do monks not get aa's that refresh their single and encounter taunts? If not then I have been misled by my monk friend(s).In TSO, 75% encounters are mutliple encounters. If you statement stands, monks can be deleted in this expansion since aoe agro is needed in almost every heroic instance in TSO.No body asks aoe taunt or damage as much as sk or zerker. But making monk as worst aoe agro tank and most monks have aoe agro issues is not acceptable since our primary role is tanking in heroic group.Aoe tank didn't have issue on single target but single target tank has issue on aoe agro is clearly out of balance. It's called overpowered.The current issues of monks are that we are on the bottom of food chain in fighter classes. Bruiser is superior in very aspect no matter in tanking, dps, singel target agro and aoe agro.I can stand that brusier has better dps and agro than monk since they are offensive brawler. But being offensive brawler with better tanking capability than monk, the defensive brawler, is totally unacceptable for myself.I can agree to that. I always felt that if a bruiser shines at one end of the spectrum that the monk should shine at the opposite end of that spectrum.</blockquote>I do have a hard time seeing that monk dps is so trashy by what I read here. I mean is bruiser dps that high and above monk dps? I am being honest here by our raid parse my freinds monk and my bruiser are close. He is usually 300-800 ahead of me but he is in the dirge group w/inquis and I am not. I am sure that the tables would be closer if I had a dirge and inquis w/ me.Thanks again.

Couching

11-25-2008, 03:57 PM

We got single target taunt refresh and bruiser got encounter taunt refresh.For dps comparsion, please don't making conclusion by your personal experience only.Bruiser has better dps (or better dps potential) than monk is a hard cold truth. It the same truth that assassin did more dps than brawler. It's not going to change even if your guild assasin did less dps than you do (just an assumption for example).

Aull

11-25-2008, 04:19 PM

Thanks for the info. I am sorry as well. I do state from my personal experiences, but that isn't hard core evidence either.Again thanks for the replies.

mr23sgte

11-26-2008, 11:51 AM

I'm really hoping since the Monk class was pretty much ignored in beta (with a few exceptions), that the Monk Class is really looked @ hard on Round 2 of the fighter changes.

ShinGoku

11-26-2008, 01:19 PM

Having been in beta has left me jaded.I keep finding myself remembering exactly how many monk threads we had on the go and how many pages each thread.Monks have been shafted so thoroughly all the way thru the beta I can't bring myself to log mine on and insteadI'm working on my shiney new SK./yours disgustedlyVeg.....

xKHONSx

11-26-2008, 02:33 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aoe tank didn't have issue on single target but single target tank has issue on aoe agro is clearly out of balance. It's called overpowered.</blockquote>This right here is the biggest thing they missed the boat on with the whole group tank and single target tank idea they have implemented. Any schmuck who can hold aggro on a group of mobs sure as heck can lock down a single mob. This needs to be addressed and fixed somehow.Full Moon's casting time needs to be reduced to make it useful (and not by using AA's to make something useful which seems to be the SOE way), or the damage needs to be increased significantly. The frontal arc restriction on Dragonfire needs to be removed and the damage on it doubled at the very least. Also, make it deal some kind of focus damage or at least physical damage so it is modified by all of our other dps mods we get. Making it a true combat art and removing the frontal arc restriction will help that CA significantly. Since our AE's do a pathetic amount of damage in comparison to a true AE class it would help to remove the max number of mobs restriction altogether, but at least increasing it will help in certain areas.A point blank ae taunt via AA's would be good. Something like that could take the place of the worthless Peel AA we get. We also need better dps choices. As our TSO tree stands Five Rings is probably the only one dps option I will end up taking. There have been plenty of great ideas in terms of dps, tanking and utility thrown out on the beta boards as well as here, but everything we say seems to fall on deaf ears. It's rather unfortunate because there are a lot of ideas that will address problems we have without making us overpowered.

NamaeZero

11-26-2008, 02:46 PM

<cite>xKHONSx wrote:</cite><blockquote>This right here is the biggest thing they missed the boat on with the whole group tank and single target tank idea they have implemented. Any schmuck who can hold aggro on a group of mobs sure as heck can lock down a single mob. This needs to be addressed and fixed somehow.</blockquote>Silly idea, but what if all group taunts were changed to affect every mob in the group *except* for the one you target? That makes single target taunts worthwhile when compared to group taunts. Of course you'd need to change some numbers. Both single and group taunts would need an aggro boost to make up for them no longer stacking, but it would solve the problem of group taunts being better in all ways versus a single target taunt.If other classes complain, tell them that rapidly switching your targetting has always been a measure of a Monks skill, as represented by our extreme lack of AoE damaging skills requiring constant switching to maintain aggro. Now everyone is equally challenged to hold aggro. :p

XunSarak

11-26-2008, 03:40 PM

I have played most classes and have kept my monk since day one and monk will never be a fighter (i.e. tank) class. With anything not in cloth or leather having a huge mit advantage, with our paltry DPS and agro control, there is just too much wrong to be an efective tank regardless of the situation without a major revamp to avoidance, DPS, AOE and agro.Being in the middle, at the bottom of both tanks and DPSers while sharing some features of both, makes us totally useless against any of the major game content. I really don't care if they improve the "tanking" or DPS abilities, so long as they balance one of them or give us a choice. I really don't like an SK, Guardian, Paladin, Zerker, etc. five to six levels below me (little more mit, less agro control and 2k less health) always selected as the tank. I am only there to "save" the true DPSers and healers if they should gain agro. Up to and part way through EoF we could be of use. We could tank reasonably well and would not decrease the overall effectivness of a group by being a DPSer. With the right group configuration we could do very well. With the changes to epics and our inability to affect them and the increase in difficulty in higher level content that is no longer the case.At 25 years old (mostly pre-EoF) I was a great fighter and raided a few days a week but now I am turning 80 (high EoF and TSO) and trying to fight more and harder mobs. I can see why we are left out most of the time.There should be no "middle" ground. There should be a distinction between a "tank" monk and a "dps" monk in terms of brawler, monk and shadow AA trees. Let the player decide what role they want to be and define his/her character. The devs certainly do not have any idea what to do with monks.

Khandor

11-26-2008, 10:32 PM

<cite>XunSarak wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have played most classes and have kept my monk since day one and monk will never be a fighter (i.e. tank) class. With anything not in cloth or leather having a huge mit advantage, with our paltry DPS and agro control, there is just too much wrong to be an efective tank regardless of the situation without a major revamp to avoidance, DPS, AOE and agro.Being in the middle, at the bottom of both tanks and DPSers while sharing some features of both, makes us totally useless against any of the major game content. I really don't care if they improve the "tanking" or DPS abilities, so long as they balance one of them or give us a choice. I really don't like an SK, Guardian, Paladin, Zerker, etc. five to six levels below me (little more mit, less agro control and 2k less health) always selected as the tank. I am only there to "save" the true DPSers and healers if they should gain agro. Up to and part way through EoF we could be of use. We could tank reasonably well and would not decrease the overall effectivness of a group by being a DPSer. With the right group configuration we could do very well. With the changes to epics and our inability to affect them and the increase in difficulty in higher level content that is no longer the case.At 25 years old (mostly pre-EoF) I was a great fighter and raided a few days a week but now I am turning 80 (high EoF and TSO) and trying to fight more and harder mobs. I can see why we are left out most of the time.There should be no "middle" ground. There should be a distinction between a "tank" monk and a "dps" monk in terms of brawler, monk and shadow AA trees. Let the player decide what role they want to be and define his/her character. The devs certainly do not have any idea what to do with monks.</blockquote>I'm in the same boat with you man. I've played since launch and the only time Monks were incredible tanks were way back before the huge avoidance nerf/change back near launch. Prior to that my monk could tank as well as any other fighter and it was fun. Since then it's just gone downhill. I don't even consider my monk a tank anymore and refuse to tank anyways. Pre-EoF I was in a pretty hardcore raiding guild, you know what the monk role was in the raids? Bait. I'd go into labs or any other dungeon, if we couldn't down the boss. I'd pull the boss down a corridor, tsunami and then FD my way back to the raid as they snuck past. That was my entire job. The times I did tank those yellow and orange raid mobs punched me into the ground, and when I wasn't tanking I was more or less busting my butt just to keep up with the DPS so the guild would see me as 'raidworthy.'And it's not just because of 'lack of skill' or some other bull that people fling around these forums, I had pretty good gear, better than most of the others in my guild. Raid tanking is just not for monks.. and there's the problem.. if we can't tank.. what do we do? DPS? well.. okay.. so we'll dps, the opposite of tanking.. but then we get done in by all the other dps worthy classes.. so what are we exactly aside from cannon fodder?I've tanked plenty of times for small instances, easy ones. But even then if I have an assassin or a wizard or some other dps class and I pull more than one mob or a group encounter, there is no way I'm gonna hold group aggro, and my specs are designed around aoe group aggro. No threat transfer in the world can help out. So I have no idea where a monk sits, especially when our alter ego, the bruiser, can do both tanking and dps better than a monk. So what, we're utility now? Awesome.. I'll just join a raid and put myself on autofollow while I go do something actually interesting.Even if we lost the whole 'hybrid' ability of a monk, I'd take it better than sitting in the middle of nowhere doing LFG over and over again hoping some group will have trouble finding any other class to take.

BChizzle

11-27-2008, 10:13 AM

Our lack of AE agro is really upsetting. It is unfun to tank instances in TSO, SOE was provided plenty of feedback regarding our limitations in this aspect and they ignored it. I could understand if other tanks had the same issues, but they don't, no other tank has to go through this stuff.

jrolla777

11-27-2008, 01:39 PM

Crane Twirl needs to be changed to aoe autoattack, maxxed its only 16% chance to proc a set amount. this skill hasnt scaled for us well at all. Autoattack increases for every fighter every expansion due to new weapons damage increase. Even guardians get an aa aoe auto, zerks have 100% all the time anyway. If guardians can aoe auto, monks should be able to as well. We are supposed to be the dps fighter remember?

Derang

12-02-2008, 01:53 AM

Playing this game anymore is feeling like a waste of money, I have to work my @$$ off tanking groups in TSO, and seeing these parses in raids with high end gear from last expansion + avatar items, I can hardly compete anymore, its insane...Id trade a haste buff anyday for a hurricane, or the strength of the bruisers ae's...I hate the fact that Crane Flock is only 16 sec long on a 2min 41sec recast...Crane Twirl helps none...Seriously if we dont get to be overpowered like the other tanks, why do we need to even tank, make us full dps, if not and your gonna make us tank, give us the ability not to get yelled at for not holding hate on overpowered dps'ers now. I just dont know, we are definately on the bottom of the class list of most useless...even below summoners and dont tell me we arnt cause from what i see we are.

circusgirl

12-02-2008, 02:20 PM

There are things I have complaints about, and things that I don't...I consider myself fairly lucky, as I'm one of the few monks with a solid spot in a raid alliance and get treated quite well by them. I consistently parse as second teir dps--that is to say, I'm usually hovering sixth, seventh, or eighth on the parse below assassins, swashies, the MT SK, and half of our casters(yeah, I totally don't know how that happens, I keep telling myself that its just because she's completely awesome) but above the bards, rangers, and other half of our casters. Its pretty obvious looking at the parse too--there's the folks parsing 7-9k dps, and then a big drop off and me leading the folks parsing 4-6 dps. Honestly, I feel pretty good about where we stand dps-wise. I outparse those scouts and mages that don't know their classes as well as I know mine, or don't have as nice gear, and fall in solidly behind the ones that do. But I go a long way towards helping our MT survive, I have an incredible buff that upps casting speed, attack speed, and our chance to hit (Many thanks to SOE for letting the AA special on monk and bruiser raidbuffs stack, btw!) In short, am I a member of a class that you would want to have a couple of on a raid? No. But any raidforce worth its salt should have one monk or bruiser that REALLY knows what they're doing. Lucky for them, monks and bruisers tend to have a fair bit of skill with their class, a side effect of having to work really fricken hard to get anywhere.My surviveability, frankly, is great. There was a long period of time when avoidance tanking was really in trouble, especially after LU26, but now its starting to work quite well again, and with our mythical's bonus to mitigation I find that in terms of how I survive I am equal (against group encounters) to any other tank.The only real area where I feel we are sorely neglected is in terms of AoE aggro. If I'm in an ideal group setup, i.e., a coercer, dirge, and swashy in group, then I do just fine. But without some serious hate transfer it is a nigh heart-attack inducing experience to try to keep aggro off of something like a warlock in TSO. It wasn't a problem in RoK or EoF because then group encounters were rare, and on the few occassions when you had them they consisted of two or three mobs, a number that can easily be tabbed between. But with encounters of 15+ mobs we're in trouble. Our AoEs, the few ones we have, have caps on the number of enemies that they can hit to the point that they cannot even hit every mob in a single TSO encounter. The 8 mob limit needs to be gotten rid of, period. We need shorter reuse timers for our group taunt, dragonfire, and full circle, and more damage on all three of those abilities. Crane flock needs to be a full AoE, instead of just frontal. And if we could have just a bit of AoE autoattack...In short, I like where we stand in terms of DPS. No, we aren't scouts. Yes, shadowknights and zerkers and bruisers can often outparse us. But its a fairly solid position. I like where we stand in terms of surviveability--its a different way of doing things, but that just makes for the kind of differences that make classes unique. But in light of where things are going with this expansion, we need some AoE aggro desperately.

Amara Peacegiver

12-03-2008, 04:56 PM

Monks should not be required to have their Epic weapon in order to be effective.

Khandor

12-03-2008, 08:33 PM

<cite>Oompah@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks should not be required to have their Epic weapon in order to be effective.</blockquote>I didn't think we were effective even with it. Strikethrough is a joke.

GoblinSharpshooter

12-04-2008, 06:52 AM

From my point of view, my tanking abilitys are kinda ok right now. I have tanked a lot stuff in Tombs of the Mad Crusader so far and with all the defensive stuff we got from our TSO AA Tree, it wasnt much harder to keep me alive then it was to keep the other tanks alive. I have 7 Avatar Items from Kunark, so i am not speaking for any other monks but me. I am sure, a monk with other gear will have serious problems tanking tso mobs.What i dont understand is, when monks ask for more open ae dmg or taunts to have more control of group-encounters, devs always tell us that we are no ae-tanks, we are single-target dps-tanks. So, if we are the dps tanks, why are SKs parsing up to 9k on single mobs ? I can understand why SKs and Bersis parse 10k on group-encounters but while a bersi has a hard time parsing more then 6k on single targets, a SK parses very close the same as a monk.So after raiding tso beta for 8 weeks and now raiding live i can pretty much say, the new king of tanking whatever you want to tank is a Shadowknight. He outparses Brigands on group-encounters, he outparses monks on single-encounters and he has as much defensive abilitys as a guardian has... grats SOE.And one more thing about "monks are no AE-tanks" ... SOE, do you think it is clever to introduce a new tank system, splitting tanks in AE and non-AE tanks, while 90% of the mobs in TSO are multi-mob encounters ? And do you realy think AE-Tanks have as much problems holding agro from single mobs as single-target tanks have problems holding agro from group-encounters ? .... LOLHey, lets make a complete Expansion just for ae-tanks, next expansion we do is just for melee-speced mystics and the next expansion will be for naked assas that dual-wield BBQ-Sticks.I sugest, you devs should play a monk, grouped with a warlock or a wizard and then tell me how often you have agro in those 20 tso instances. I tell you how it works ... you pull a 6 mob encounter ... one will be on you, one will be on the brigand, the other 4 will be on the warlock.(Sorry for the bad english, im german)Noogard - ExordiumEverfrost

Aull

12-04-2008, 10:39 AM

<cite>GoblinSharpshooter wrote:</cite><blockquote>From my point of view, my tanking abilitys are kinda ok right now. I have tanked a lot stuff in Tombs of the Mad Crusader so far and with all the defensive stuff we got from our TSO AA Tree, it wasnt much harder to keep me alive then it was to keep the other tanks alive. I have 7 Avatar Items from Kunark, so i am not speaking for any other monks but me. I am sure, a monk with other gear will have serious problems tanking tso mobs.What i dont understand is, when monks ask for more open ae dmg or taunts to have more control of group-encounters, devs always tell us that we are no ae-tanks, we are single-target dps-tanks. So, if we are the dps tanks, why are SKs parsing up to 9k on single mobs ? I can understand why SKs and Bersis parse 10k on group-encounters but while a bersi has a hard time parsing more then 6k on single targets, a SK parses very close the same as a monk.So after raiding tso beta for 8 weeks and now raiding live i can pretty much say, the new king of tanking whatever you want to tank is a Shadowknight. He outparses Brigands on group-encounters, he outparses monks on single-encounters and he has as much defensive abilitys as a guardian has... grats SOE.And one more thing about "monks are no AE-tanks" ... SOE, do you think it is clever to introduce a new tank system, splitting tanks in AE and non-AE tanks, while 90% of the mobs in TSO are multi-mob encounters ? And do you realy think AE-Tanks have as much problems holding agro from single mobs as single-target tanks have problems holding agro from group-encounters ? .... LOLHey, lets make a complete Expansion just for ae-tanks, next expansion we do is just for melee-speced mystics and the next expansion will be for naked assas that dual-wield BBQ-Sticks.I sugest, you devs should play a monk, grouped with a warlock or a wizard and then tell me how often you have agro in those 20 tso instances. I tell you how it works ... you pull a 6 mob encounter ... one will be on you, one will be on the brigand, the other 4 will be on the warlock.(Sorry for the bad english, im german)Noogard - ExordiumEverfrost</blockquote>Good post. I believe that no "heavy wearing plate tank" should out dps a monk on a single target mob. It just doesn't make sense how a lighter armored melee who should be able to strike and recover much quicker is being out dps'ed by a more encumbered plate/chain melee class or classes. Its like an 18 wheeler truck fully loaded accelerating from 0-60 in 5.2 secs just like a Mustang and the truck gets better gas mileage doing it. I can understand the better ae for plates but just don't see how they are allowed to be better even at single target.I don't think there will ever be balance as long as there are six tanks. Both brawlers for a long time seem to have a stigma about their tanking and dps abilities and I think it will just be that way as long as the game lives.

Mogzilla

12-04-2008, 11:59 AM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>. I mean is bruiser dps that high and above monk dps?</blockquote>No its not, some of these people could dps like an assassin and tank like a guardian and still complain.Yes monks need help imo, expecially on aoe aggro, but the idea the bruisers just flat out own monks is a complete fallacy imo. Yes brusier may be sligthtly better now (and only after 200 aa), but players skill > all.Alot of this groaning is coming from people with their mythicals and yes the bruiser mythical is very nice and better then the monk mythical.But how many brawlers at 80 have their mythicals? Maybee 15-20%.The fact is that unless the bruiser has their mythical tsuami owns anything a bruiser has for tanking until the bruiser gets over 182 AA's, a monk gets tsuami at level 50 something.Yes monks need some loving , but player skill > all. No raid leader with a clue is going to dump a good monk just to grab some random bruiser to raid with.I still think the monk raidwide is better to, that casting haste help everybody in the raid, the bruiser buff is mostly melee focused. That -10% hate does nothing for a priest or a raid with a good tank and RL who knows how to set up groups so aggro stays on the MT.Anyway I am all for monks getting some love, but this idea that you should just delete your monk is hysterical hyperbole. The brawler classes are much more even now then the were in ROK tbh. When bruisers were pretty much at the least desirable class in the game for raiding purposes.

Mogzilla

12-04-2008, 12:06 PM

<cite>GoblinSharpshooter wrote:</cite><blockquote>From my point of view, my tanking abilitys are kinda ok right now. I have tanked a lot stuff in Tombs of the Mad Crusader so far and with all the defensive stuff we got from our TSO AA Tree, it wasnt much harder to keep me alive then it was to keep the other tanks alive. I have 7 Avatar Items from Kunark, so i am not speaking for any other monks but me. I am sure, a monk with other gear will have serious problems tanking tso mobs.What i dont understand is, when monks ask for more open ae dmg or taunts to have more control of group-encounters, devs always tell us that we are no ae-tanks, we are single-target dps-tanks. So, if we are the dps tanks, why are SKs parsing up to 9k on single mobs ? I can understand why SKs and Bersis parse 10k on group-encounters but while a bersi has a hard time parsing more then 6k on single targets, a SK parses very close the same as a monk.So after raiding tso beta for 8 weeks and now raiding live i can pretty much say, the new king of tanking whatever you want to tank is a Shadowknight. He outparses Brigands on group-encounters, he outparses monks on single-encounters and he has as much defensive abilitys as a guardian has... grats SOE.And one more thing about "monks are no AE-tanks" ... SOE, do you think it is clever to introduce a new tank system, splitting tanks in AE and non-AE tanks, while 90% of the mobs in TSO are multi-mob encounters ? And do you realy think AE-Tanks have as much problems holding agro from single mobs as single-target tanks have problems holding agro from group-encounters ? .... LOLHey, lets make a complete Expansion just for ae-tanks, next expansion we do is just for melee-speced mystics and the next expansion will be for naked assas that dual-wield BBQ-Sticks.I sugest, you devs should play a monk, grouped with a warlock or a wizard and then tell me how often you have agro in those 20 tso instances. I tell you how it works ... you pull a 6 mob encounter ... one will be on you, one will be on the brigand, the other 4 will be on the warlock.(Sorry for the bad english, im german)Noogard - ExordiumEverfrost</blockquote>This is the real issue here. SOE has divided tanks as aoe vs single target tanks.Then cut the reuse on rescue in half and made a bunch of new AA abilities the seem to primarily focus single target rescue like abilities. Where are the AOE rescues? I have grouped with the supposed aoe tanks (SK, zerker, paladin) and let me tell you their single target aggro is also very good.I will be the first to admit that ROK was rough on SK's and zerkers to some extent, but this expansion just seems like overcompensation.

Turb

12-09-2008, 06:13 AM

I agree lack of AE aggro is what is hurting monks in TSO, at least in the group instances.I think there are a number of fairly simple changes any or all of which could be made that would help us without us being made AE gods like zerkers, e.g.:- Make Sneering Assault encounter-based- Change Enhance: Dragonfire to widen the cone and NOT extend the radius (16m is dangerous!)- Make Crane Twirl proc more often, more like 32% than 16%- Make Crane Flock an area of effect ability like Crane Twirl- Change Everburning to be an AE damage/taunt proc (having 300+ haste in raids is kinda pointless)There's plenty more ideas like this people have floated, but they seem to be falling on deaf ears.

Valenx

12-09-2008, 11:03 AM

It's amazing that all of these great ideas go completely unoticied by the devs. It is really dissapointing... BTW I agree that we should have a choice of either being a "tank" or "DPS".

circusgirl

12-09-2008, 04:45 PM

Monks are a flexible class, this is one of our defining features, and we should have the option of choosing which one you want to be. I keep two AA specs, one is for tanking, one is for dpsing. I also keep an extra strongbox full of gear that I can use to switch from tanking to dpsing. I do like the way the TSO AAs let us choose--we have one AA that buffs our offensinve stance, and one that buffs our defensive stance. This is great because the mirror lets us keep two AA sets, so I have one in which I choose the defensive buff, and one in which I choose the offensive. I'm honestly a little frustrated with our brawler line. The abilities are fantastic, sure, but the way in which its set up prevents us from really making a definitive choice between dps and tanking. The lines go like this:useless stat increaseextra attackproc/major dps increaseincrease to defensive abilitiesfinal attackBecause each line includes both offensive and defensive abilities, I can't, for example, put all or most of my points into defensive things like I have with the monk and TSO lines. This I think is a real problem.As for fixing monks, theres a very simple, very effective solution: change our dragon rage proc to encounter wide. Done. Fixed. Satisfied with my class.

Turb

12-11-2008, 11:15 AM

Yeah I like that encounter proc idea... a new petition thread then? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Raznor2

12-12-2008, 03:15 PM

One idea I thought would be cool is an ability to gain hate based on our avoidance. Say every time a mob misses us, x amount of hate is gained. Couple that with Tsunami and you have way of producing alot of hate without having the ae damage of a zerker or Sk. For example, you pull a group encounter, hit your ae's and taunts, fire tsunami and gain hate from your avoidance.~Raithan

mr23sgte

12-16-2008, 12:01 PM

Looks like we got a response in the Combat Discussion Forum and the KOS AA line will see some love -I'm hoping MAYBE some EOF/TSO Monk AA's reworked too. /pray

NamaeZero

12-16-2008, 08:28 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>With the changes offensive and defensive stances become more meaningful. You will want to use offensive stance if you are in a dps mode and switch to defensive stance when you expect to tank. We are also combining some of the fighter self buffs so that they are used in the correct combinations they were meant to be used rather than say a guardian running offensive stance while still having the bonuses of hold the line up.</blockquote>I'll have to see it before I beleive it. So far everything I have seen for brawlers has been lackluster. You completely ignore the monks plea for more ae agro I doubt you will get this one right either. Also if your idea is for example tsunami or our aa's and mit temps not being able to be cast while in offensive stance well sir please put down the drawing board sit down with someone who actually plays monk for 1 minute, then pick up said drawing board wipe it clean and start over.Seriously have you taken it upon yourself to make this game unfun for brawlers?</blockquote>This change is for all fighters not just brawlers. The offensive stance is your dps oriented stance and improves damage but at the cost of hate gain and threat while defensive stances lower dps but increase your hate generation and threat. Also, with the changes everyone will have a new blue aoe taunt tied to one of the blue aoe lines. In additions, the wisdom line for brawlers has aoe auto attack now while the int line gives increased taunt effectiveness.</blockquote>Just adding this here so it's easier to refer to!I guess we have more reasons to take the WIS/INT lines!

Saphirewind

01-07-2009, 05:11 AM

<cite>Raznor269 wrote:</cite><blockquote>One idea I thought would be cool is an ability to gain hate based on our avoidance. Say every time a mob misses us, x amount of hate is gained. Couple that with Tsunami and you have way of producing alot of hate without having the ae damage of a zerker or Sk. For example, you pull a group encounter, hit your ae's and taunts, fire tsunami and gain hate from your avoidance.~Raithan</blockquote>I think this would be an awesome solution to the issue. Also it seems like it would effectively mirror what would happen in an actual fight, I mean, if you are fighting someone, wouldn't you get more [Removed for Content] and frustrated if they kept just stepping out of the way of your attacks and then hitting you while you were recovering? Of course I would bet that since this is the case it automaticaly guarentees that SOE won't implement it.

BChizzle

01-07-2009, 08:23 PM

<cite>Saphirewind@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raznor269 wrote:</cite><blockquote>One idea I thought would be cool is an ability to gain hate based on our avoidance. Say every time a mob misses us, x amount of hate is gained. Couple that with Tsunami and you have way of producing alot of hate without having the ae damage of a zerker or Sk. For example, you pull a group encounter, hit your ae's and taunts, fire tsunami and gain hate from your avoidance.~Raithan</blockquote>I think this would be an awesome solution to the issue. Also it seems like it would effectively mirror what would happen in an actual fight, I mean, if you are fighting someone, wouldn't you get more [Removed for Content] and frustrated if they kept just stepping out of the way of your attacks and then hitting you while you were recovering? Of course I would bet that since this is the case it automaticaly guarentees that SOE won't implement it.</blockquote>Actually it isn't a good solution, as you would be losing out on hate if you didn't have agro. Also, on high end mobs we don't really avoid all that much to make it worth it.