Amends ~~ Speak now or loose it !!! [Archive]

tikasa

11-13-2008, 03:02 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>AOE Tank means you can handle the aoe encounters slightly better than the other tanks. Single target tank generally means better single target aggro and slightly more defensive. This doesnt meant that a berserker or sk are your only options to aoe encounters. You can still throw in a really good guardian if you want but the aoe tank toolset is slightly better. Same goes for the single target the aoe tanks can still be used but once we are done the single target guys will be a bit better at their job.I also realize that Amends + warlock/swash is better than what an sk or berserker can do right now. Thats largely what part 2 is meant to address where we make adjustments to some of these systems to make tanks more responsible for their aggro and less on other classes to provide it for them.</blockquote>

Sir Longsword

11-13-2008, 03:32 PM

The Paladin is NOT a single target tank. Leave them alone, leave amends alone.DO NOT NGE THE PALADIN!Are zones going to be single target encounter or group encounters only, or will they be both? Tanks need to be able to handle each encounter not specific ones.

Meatmonster

11-13-2008, 05:02 PM

I'm not really terrified about them neutering Amends, because it's difficult not to admit that it is somewhat overpowered. My concern is, they are not going to turn Paladin's into more "single-target" without much more dramatic changes than that. What are you going to do with Sigil of Heroism? What are you going to do with the bazillion AE spells that Paladins get?It seems even more ridiculous to me because Paladins were, at least in my experience, have traditionally been better AE tanks than SKs. I don't mind them closing the gap some, because SKs could certainly use the love, but arbitrarily switching class roles does not engender a terrific amount of trust here.

Zapat

11-13-2008, 07:24 PM

if they feel the need to nerf our Amends, then so be it...... but DO NOT make us single-target tanks, thats not who we are (i know i've stated this before) but being an AE tank is what gives our class meaning and uniqueness, if i wanted to be a Guardian (great class BTW) then i'd roll one.those whom i grouped with in the past love me because of the fact that when it comes to aggro control i get really sick wit' it. and i'm only lvl 42 and don't have my 'Amends' yet, hence the reason i could care less if they nerf it. however, if they take away our AE abilities then many people arent gonna give 2 S**T's about having a Pally in their group if they can find a Guardian. who knows, some may have sympathy for our makeshift healing abilities (sigh)

Full_Metal_Mage

11-13-2008, 07:34 PM

If Paladins' hate siphon gets NGE'd, does that mean they'll become a DPS class so that they can be more responsible for their aggro?

Boethius_Permafrost

11-13-2008, 08:20 PM

Thanks for providing a link to the thread you want us to post in ... oh wait

Illyakuran

11-13-2008, 08:53 PM

<cite>Enrico@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for providing a link to the thread you want us to post in ... oh wait</blockquote>Here ya go, have at it.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=435620">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=435620</a>

Antryg Mistrose

11-14-2008, 09:15 PM

<cite>Disgustipate wrote:</cite><blockquote> I'm not really terrified about them neutering Amends, because it's difficult not to admit that it is somewhat overpowered.</blockquote>Why do paladin players and others alike continue to spread this missinformation? Amends in a raid tanking situation gives 3% more hate transfer than what ANY other tank would get in the MT group (swash/dirge/coercer + sorcerer somewhere in the raid), and thats without considering abilities like moderate

Boethius_Permafrost

11-15-2008, 12:00 AM

That's a link to another hearsay thread. No thanks.

Antryg Mistrose

11-15-2008, 12:29 AM

<cite>Enrico@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's a link to another hearsay thread. No thanks.</blockquote>If you check the dev tracker you won't find Aerilk's post either, as its in the beta forum. The text has been faithfully copied I'm told, and the mindset it reveals is a little annoying.

tikasa

11-15-2008, 08:17 AM

<cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Enrico@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's a link to another hearsay thread. No thanks.</blockquote>If you check the dev tracker you won't find Aerilk's post either, as its in the beta forum. The text has been faithfully copied I'm told, and the mindset it reveals is a little annoying.</blockquote>Posted the whole quote and not just part of it.... oh well next time I will not bother

Prestissimo

11-15-2008, 05:11 PM

The paladin is already set up as a good aoe tank, and given more taunts and more defense, the SK would be set up as a very good single target tank. What possible logic could they ever have to decide to arbitrarily swap the rolls and force a complete recreation of both classes?On a note about amends, the paladin doesn't need to be adjusted very much, because if your group sucks, the paladin and amends equally sucks. The guardian tanks equally for one group or another, the berzerker does as well, and the SK doesn't really tank at the moment, but that will change in TSO.The point though is that while the guardian and berzerker rely mostly on finite taunt amounts and their dps, the paladins rely on transfers. Therefore, if characters start to become more powerful than the mobs, the paladin is going to allow them to use their full potential and start to seem like they're overpowered, where as the other tanks can only generate so much agro and then they seem underpowered in comparison. It is completely unfair to nerf the paladins just because the top tier of raiding paladins become "too powerful". If any developer actually soloed one through all of RoK, they'd fully understand why its not the paladin thats the problem.

Boethius_Permafrost

11-15-2008, 07:36 PM

If we have to be on the beta boards, just say so. I'm not so good luck. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Rast

11-16-2008, 02:41 AM

if they want to do it, they will do it regardless of what we paladins (or maybe in spite of) say. TBH, I'm ok with it IF and ONLY IF, they remove ALL hate transfers (turn them into hate dumps rather than transfers so the scout classes aren't hurt) from the game AND give tanks (all tanks) a means to really control their own agro (through improved taunts and such) so that it is less oriented on DPS to hold agro and more towards actually attempting to control agro that gets you there.If they are only going to get rid of amends and leave the other hate transfers in, then... well, I think that would be crap on a stick.

FrozenFrostbeard

11-16-2008, 03:42 AM

I think they should stop changing the game when they can't figure out how to fix it.

Niou

11-16-2008, 04:34 PM

Been playing the Paladin class since launch and I guess it was bound to happen eventually. Dev's forget that Amends was created so that a paladin could maintain hate while casting heals and such, ie: other class defining skills. In the name of Balance they tend to forget the reasons things were created in the first place.Unless the Paladin recieves some type of compensation for the loss of amends, There will be little to no reason to play the class over an SK anymore. As someone already pointed out, no raid or group is going to want a Paladin over a Guardian when a paladin is just 80% of a Guardian in every single aspect.Oh well, heres hoping, if you can't roll with the changes, you can't play EQ2.

Gisallo

11-16-2008, 06:48 PM

<cite>Araris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Been playing the Paladin class since launch and I guess it was bound to happen eventually. Dev's forget that Amends was created so that a paladin could maintain hate while casting heals and such, ie: other class defining skills. In the name of Balance they tend to forget the reasons things were created in the first place.Unless the Paladin recieves some type of compensation for the loss of amends, There will be little to no reason to play the class over an SK anymore. As someone already pointed out, no raid or group is going to want a Paladin over a Guardian when a paladin is just 80% of a Guardian in every single aspect.Oh well, heres hoping, if you can't roll with the changes, you can't play EQ2.</blockquote>First this is not meant to flame but is an honest question. Here you are saying its there to cast your heals and such so you can still maintain hate. Most others seem to be saying that "our heals take to long to cast and so get interuppted all the time so they are useless." Honestly which is it. Does the Paladin bring utility or doesn't it? If it doesn't then Amends needs to get nerfed because it is basically a "click once hold aggro button", if you are utility then perhaps we can talk about working on amends. Until this single issue gets cleared up though the argument will never end. <shrug>

Rocksthemic

11-16-2008, 07:16 PM

The conception that amends is a "click once to hold aggro" button is misinformed at best.41% transfer. That means in a best case scenario, you still must work to hold aggro. If you're a legendary geared pally, with fabled epic, you will do somewhere between 600-1200 dps (depending on how much you have to heal yourself). A wizard doing 4-5k dps (not unreasonable with quest/instance gear). And various other dps classes. doing somewhere between 3 - 5k.Say for simplicity sake pally does 1k dps, wizzie does 5k dps41% of 5k is 2050. 1k makes that 3050. So any dps class doing more than 3050 dps is going to rip aggro off of you. Add in the fact that pallies have low defense, making them often have to heal themselves, and while healing themselves generate no aggro themselves. Add in the fact that we get no reactive taunt proc or dmg. Add in the fact that we are dependent upon spell casting to keep aggro, up to 70% or more of our dps is from casting, making us vulnerable to stuns, stifles, and interrupts (which many mobs do)Your dps numbers start dropping pretty quickly at the point where you have to help heal yourself, or get interrupted.Granted in TSO, our heals are going to cast faster (although this is a combo of them redesigning the heals and IF we choose to take certain AA choices) this will still not make our heals enough of a tool for us to actually hold aggro. If that was the case, you could see furies tanking easier instances right now through a combo of dps and heals.I am of the "wait and see" attitude as far as these changes... but right now it's looking like they plan on making the paladin class next to useless in every aspect with these changes. 80% fighter, 20% healer, 100% screwed.

Athrun

11-16-2008, 07:30 PM

<cite>No, Amends is not a "click once and hold aggro" ability. It does not give paladins the ability to hold aggro and do nothing themselves. It is not overpowered. Why? Do you have any idea how many taunts paladins get? Two...three if you count the shield bash. Do you know how many guardians get? 4...5 if you count their shield bash. And generally paladins do less dps then most if not all of the other tank classes. Amends does not make us overpowered, it simply gives us the ability to *gasp* actually compete. </cite><cite></cite><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Araris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Been playing the Paladin class since launch and I guess it was bound to happen eventually. Dev's forget that Amends was created so that a paladin could maintain hate while casting heals and such, ie: other class defining skills. In the name of Balance they tend to forget the reasons things were created in the first place.Unless the Paladin recieves some type of compensation for the loss of amends, There will be little to no reason to play the class over an SK anymore. As someone already pointed out, no raid or group is going to want a Paladin over a Guardian when a paladin is just 80% of a Guardian in every single aspect.Oh well, heres hoping, if you can't roll with the changes, you can't play EQ2.</blockquote>First this is not meant to flame but is an honest question. Here you are saying its there to cast your heals and such so you can still maintain hate. Most others seem to be saying that "our heals take to long to cast and so get interuppted all the time so they are useless." Honestly which is it. Does the Paladin bring utility or doesn't it? If it doesn't then Amends needs to get nerfed because it is basically a "click once hold aggro button", if you are utility then perhaps we can talk about working on amends. Until this single issue gets cleared up though the argument will never end.</blockquote>

Glerin

11-16-2008, 07:38 PM

from a pure TPS(Threat per second) pov, our heals are right now insufficient, however this -might- change in TSO, I can see our groupheal being quite good for aggro if our group is taking a ton of dmg, but not enough to make up the loss of amends.however I want to say this:giving out some more informative statements about exacly -what- will be changed, -how- it will be changed, and -what- we will get in return, just saying "hate xfers will be changed" just leaves every paladin with a clump of "oh no" in their tummy and they go /Rage, so if amends is being messed with, what do we get in return to compensate?

Gisallo

11-16-2008, 07:59 PM

<cite>Athrun@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>No, Amends is not a "click once and hold aggro" ability. It does not give paladins the ability to hold aggro and do nothing themselves. It is not overpowered. Why? Do you have any idea how many taunts paladins get? Two...three if you count the shield bash. Do you know how many guardians get? 4...5 if you count their shield bash. And generally paladins do less dps then most if not all of the other tank classes. Amends does not make us overpowered, it simply gives us the ability to *gasp* actually compete. </cite><cite></cite></blockquote>First let me thank you for answering this in the way you did, you made it clear that you have a completely different idea as to the purpose of Amends but as I said that I think is the issue. There are so many reasons as to why Amends exists and depending on the reason an argument can be made that it is OP'd or not.Onto some points. Well Zerkers (can't talk for SK's) get 2 taunts that are largely useless for anything but a pull to avoid your Defiler from catching ward aggro 1 that is ridiculously in the radius of the AoE so is highly situational and rescue. Not trying to say WAAH Zerkers have it worse, only that Pallies are not the only ones with taunts that suck.Also I mispoke when I simply said "one click", what I should have said is "the only taunt you need". Just look at how much a swashy or Warlock can parse in an AOE fight or a Ranger, Wizard or Assassin in a one on one fight (especially if they are wearing a choker). 40 odd % of that is a MASSIVE amount of aggro. Basically in those circumstances all you have to do is throw Amends down and then fight. Thats it. No need to worry about cycling out to taunts, no worry about maybe having to pop an AoE ability when it is not advantageous and possibly pulling unwanted aggro to keep the dps up, heck no need to worry about maximizing dps by running act and/or self timeing your auto attack. Mayhaps the nerf to Amends is overly done, I won't argue that is not the case, most nerfs are initially overly done, but I have seen better played and geared Fighters of every class BUT Guardian get out done by a marginally less skilled Pally with not as good gear because of amends and a good amends target on more than one raid or when put into the same instance group. The other 2 plate classes basically have to rely ONLY on dps (at least pre TSO can't wait to try what happens there, maybe I will like it, maybe not) and they simply don't do enough dps to make up the difference between Guards or Pallies atm.I guess in the end what I am saying is that there are lots of new abilities in the new AA trees and I am waiting to see if they make up the difference for the nerfs. If they do great, if not I will join in the chorus.

denmom

11-16-2008, 08:40 PM

I didn't play a lot in beta, too much real life going on, but I did get my Paladin into beta at L68. I deleted that copy and got her in at L76 a day ago, so have current info.I have Amends at master 1 on Pheep, 41% transfer, did not see anything of it being changed. Having said that, it remains to be seen if there's something in the works that's not yet made it into beta or will be held onto until live on the 18th, or is in the Part 2 that Aeralik mentioned.In the Shadow tree, the new third AA tree, there were these for hate holding. This is off the beta Paladin I made while waiting for Pheep to get copied over. I took the Str line down to the Avenging Invigoration (as I have on Pheep) which gives reuse speed boost 10%, casting speed 33%, recovery boost 25%. This is a change from the current 10% to all three. This is one of the new changes to the Str line. I took off the gear to get abilities without bonuses from the buff gear. The CA/spells are all Ad 1.Fighter tree: Rescue reuse timer increased, 1 pt gives 10%. I'm guessing it'll be 50% with 5 pts. Sneering Assault, end ability in the line. 1845-3075, kicks Pally up 3 positions, 559-839 melee damage, 2 min 44 sec timer.Crusader tree: Gallantry, gives taunts 25% boost (Excoriation and Clarion) with 5 pts.Paladin tree: Forced Following, 30 sec increase on reuse speed of Holy Ground with 5 pts. Faithful Cry, end ability, threat 1472-1799 instantly with 4 sec dot, 1258-1538 melee damage, 567-692 divine damage instantly with 4 sec dot, heal 455-556 instantly with 4 sec dot.I looked at how fast aggro tools would reuse with Avenging Invigoration's reuse speed and recovery boost.Clarion: 7.3Excoriation: 18.2 secFaithful Cry: 40 secHoly Ground: 51.8Sigil of Heroism: 1 min 50 secThis info is as of today, a few minutes ago, as I wrote them down.

Athrun

11-16-2008, 09:06 PM

<cite>No, amends is not the only taunt a paladin needs. If I am tanking something in a raid I'm hitting all my taunts whenever they're up. Why? Because, amends only gives us 41% of one other person's hate. That means 59% of that person's hate is going to that person plus there is the fact that all the hate generated by every other person in the raid is still going to them, minus whatever buffs they have up or have on them. Either way unless sigil is used you still have the hate of 22 other people not going to the paladin. And sigil only shrinks that number by 5 and only for, depending on spec, 20 seconds and only transfers 36% of the hate of the group to the pally for that time period. If I am not using my taunts the mob will be taken off me quite quickly even if I'm doing as much dps as possible.</cite><cite>I know little about zerkers, haven't played one. But the answer to fix the zerker is not to nerf the pally. The answer to fix the zerker is....to fix the zerker. To argue otherwise is to pull this logic: Well I got screwed so now it's your turn to get screwed because that will make me feel better even though I'm still screwed.</cite><cite>Sk's get no more or less taunts then the pally does but an sk, when played right, will outdps a pally. Same with a monk. I'm not sure about a bruiser as my guild doesn't raid with any but I somehow doubt they do less dps then a paladin does. And a zerker will also, generally, outdps a paladin.</cite><cite>And please, don't argue that we can use heals to build aggro. We can't. If we're tanking in a raid and we're healing it's a "oh crap" moment and generally that limits it really only to the lay on hands line. Our heals take too long and are too weak to use to build aggro. Outside of lay of hands my strongest heal is a 3200 self heal and that takes 3 seconds to cast. And if you haven't done any raiding on beta oh trust me...the mobs are hitting for way higher than that. And in the 3 seconds it takes me to cast that heal the wizard, warlock, rangers, assassins, brigand and swashbuckler have done at multiple times that much in damage meanwhile my dps flatlined for that 3 seconds.</cite><cite>So I have a question for you, Gisallo, and all the other ones saying that paladin's amends needs to be nerfed. Where exactly did the idea that the way to fix your own classes is to nerf someone elses come from? Because I seriously don't understand it. </cite><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Athrun@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>No, Amends is not a "click once and hold aggro" ability. It does not give paladins the ability to hold aggro and do nothing themselves. It is not overpowered. Why? Do you have any idea how many taunts paladins get? Two...three if you count the shield bash. Do you know how many guardians get? 4...5 if you count their shield bash. And generally paladins do less dps then most if not all of the other tank classes. Amends does not make us overpowered, it simply gives us the ability to *gasp* actually compete. </cite><cite></cite></blockquote>First let me thank you for answering this in the way you did, you made it clear that you have a completely different idea as to the purpose of Amends but as I said that I think is the issue. There are so many reasons as to why Amends exists and depending on the reason an argument can be made that it is OP'd or not.Onto some points. Well Zerkers (can't talk for SK's) get 2 taunts that are largely useless for anything but a pull to avoid your Defiler from catching ward aggro 1 that is ridiculously in the radius of the AoE so is highly situational and rescue. Not trying to say WAAH Zerkers have it worse, only that Pallies are not the only ones with taunts that suck.Also I mispoke when I simply said "one click", what I should have said is "the only taunt you need". Just look at how much a swashy or Warlock can parse in an AOE fight or a Ranger, Wizard or Assassin in a one on one fight (especially if they are wearing a choker). 40 odd % of that is a MASSIVE amount of aggro. Basically in those circumstances all you have to do is throw Amends down and then fight. Thats it. No need to worry about cycling out to taunts, no worry about maybe having to pop an AoE ability when it is not advantageous and possibly pulling unwanted aggro to keep the dps up, heck no need to worry about maximizing dps by running act and/or self timeing your auto attack. Mayhaps the nerf to Amends is overly done, I won't argue that is not the case, most nerfs are initially overly done, but I have seen better played and geared Fighters of every class BUT Guardian get out done by a marginally less skilled Pally with not as good gear because of amends and a good amends target on more than one raid or when put into the same instance group. The other 2 plate classes basically have to rely ONLY on dps (at least pre TSO can't wait to try what happens there, maybe I will like it, maybe not) and they simply don't do enough dps to make up the difference between Guards or Pallies atm.I guess in the end what I am saying is that there are lots of new abilities in the new AA trees and I am waiting to see if they make up the difference for the nerfs. If they do great, if not I will join in the chorus.</blockquote>

Gisallo

11-16-2008, 09:30 PM

<cite>Athrun@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>So I have a question for you, Gisallo, and all the other ones saying that paladin's amends needs to be nerfed. Where exactly did the idea that the way to fix your own classes is to nerf someone elses come from? Because I seriously don't understand it. </cite></blockquote>The point is I don't think anyone is getting overly nerfed. If what is happening to the Pally is a nerf (when you also look at the new aggro tools in the new AA trees) then so is the zerker. Thing is though I think it is inappropriate for me as a zerker to say "I got nerfed" because I lost 35 DA just as it is inappropriate at the moment for any class to say "I got nerfed." The crux of my place here is to primarily learn what Pallies thing the purpose of Amends is. Some seem to think its to provide them with the opportunity to do things other than generate hate, others seem to think they need it to generate hate period. It looks like this is an attempt to rebalance the tanks and further define their roles, and make us more dependent on taunts than dps or hate buffs. Now whether we like the roles they are putting us in and the changes to aggro management is of course debateable, but there it is. For each thing they have taken away they have added abilities, we need to wait and see if those added things measure up.The reason I want to understand this is because after a few months of TSO, when we have had a chance to get all our AA's filled out and see how the abilities work to end line, then we can all sit down and ask if we were really nerfed or not. If not there will be much rejoicing. If we were nerfed then I will be screaming for Pallies to be fixed just as I hope Pallies will be screaming for Zerkers.Even if we are not nerfed (and the jury is still out on that) we will all have to do one thing as tanks, adjust our play style. I right now hold aggro primarily because even with a shield I can do t2 dps. Without that dps I am next to useless in holding aggro. I can see that after TSO I will only do T2 dps if I dual wield which probably won't be doable as a MT because of surviveability. I will have to learn to use new aggro tools and spend my AA's appropriately in those new and old. As will we all. It appears from looking at the Pally tree on Alakazam that they are in the same boat, Amends may be reduced but there are other tools there to use now. Whether they work or not we will only see by trying to use them. See you all in about 2 months when we are all AA'd out and can figure out what needs fixing and not.Let me just say one more thing which I am sure will PO some people. It might be that after this expansion (actually I am pretty certain of it) that some people will be saying "its harder to tank" or "I need to tank differently". To be honest some tanks (Guards for one) should have a slightly harder time tanking.It also probable that some people will be saying they can't tank at all anymore. Likely because the class doesn't fit with the play style they were using and they either can not or will not adjust their style. But thats the way of it in every MMO I have ever played and its never going to change. <shrug>

Athrun

11-16-2008, 10:00 PM

<cite>Here is the new aggro tools pallies are getting...well...the ones that either is crusader only or paladin only:</cite><cite>Shadow tab:</cite><cite>Crusader: </cite><cite>Gallantry: Increases threat amount of taunt spells by 5% per level</cite><cite>Paladin: Faithful cry: It's the end one so only get one point in it. This is what it does...or rather what it says it does:</cite><cite>Increases threat to target by 1,922-2,249 instantly and by 1,472-1,799 every 4 seconds thereafter</cite><cite>Inflicts 718-878 divine damage on target instantly and every 4 seconds</cite><cite>Heals caster for 496-607 instantly and every 4 seconds</cite><cite>Inflicts 1821-2175 melee damage on target. </cite><cite>It lasts for 20 seconds and has a refresh of 45 seconds.</cite><cite>Now the reason I said "rather what it says it does" is because that should get me aggro on a mob pretty easily. And yet every time I've used it I have yet to aggro on a mob yet. Now that could be because of some sort of immunity but that seems a bit unlikely that every single mob I've tried it on is immune to it. </cite><cite>Now is any of that worth amends? I think not. </cite><cite></cite><cite><a href="mailto:Gisallo@Lucan">Gisallo@Lucan</a> DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Athrun@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>So I have a question for you, Gisallo, and all the other ones saying that paladin's amends needs to be nerfed. Where exactly did the idea that the way to fix your own classes is to nerf someone elses come from? Because I seriously don't understand it. </cite></blockquote>The point is I don't think anyone is getting overly nerfed. If what is happening to the Pally is a nerf (when you also look at the new aggro tools in the new AA trees) then so is the zerker. Thing is though I think it is inappropriate for me as a zerker to say "I got nerfed" because I lost 35 DA just as it is inappropriate at the moment for any class to say "I got nerfed." The crux of my place here is to primarily learn what Pallies thing the purpose of Amends is. Some seem to think its to provide them with the opportunity to do things other than generate hate, others seem to think they need it to generate hate period. It looks like this is an attempt to rebalance the tanks and further define their roles, and make us more dependent on taunts than dps or hate buffs. Now whether we like the roles they are putting us in and the changes to aggro management is of course debateable, but there it is. For each thing they have taken away they have added abilities, we need to wait and see if those added things measure up.The reason I want to understand this is because after a few months of TSO, when we have had a chance to get all our AA's filled out and see how the abilities work to end line, then we can all sit down and ask if we were really nerfed or not. If not there will be much rejoicing. If we were nerfed then I will be screaming for Pallies to be fixed just as I hope Pallies will be screaming for Zerkers.Even if we are not nerfed (and the jury is still out on that) we will all have to do one thing as tanks, adjust our play style. I right now hold aggro primarily because even with a shield I can do t2 dps. Without that dps I am next to useless in holding aggro. I can see that after TSO I will only do T2 dps if I dual wield which probably won't be doable as a MT because of surviveability. I will have to learn to use new aggro tools and spend my AA's appropriately in those new and old. As will we all. It appears from looking at the Pally tree on Alakazam that they are in the same boat, Amends may be reduced but there are other tools there to use now. Whether they work or not we will only see by trying to use them. See you all in about 2 months when we are all AA'd out and can figure out what needs fixing and not.Let me just say one more thing which I am sure will PO some people. It might be that after this expansion (actually I am pretty certain of it) that some people will be saying "its harder to tank" or "I need to tank differently". To be honest some tanks (Guards for one) should have a slightly harder time tanking.It also probable that some people will be saying they can't tank at all anymore. Likely because the class doesn't fit with the play style they were using and they either can not or will not adjust their style. But thats the way of it in every MMO I have ever played and its never going to change.</blockquote>

Glerin

11-16-2008, 10:47 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>The point is I don't think anyone is getting overly nerfed. If what is happening to the Pally is a nerf (when you also look at the new aggro tools in the new AA trees) then so is the zerker. Thing is though I think it is inappropriate for me as a zerker to say "I got nerfed" because I lost 35 DABerserkers are still able to get above 100% DA, even with this said "nerf" or "balance" or whatever you call it, fact remains in top end, this won't affect berserkers at all, especially not now that they can use towershields tooThe reason I want to understand this is because after a few months of TSO, when we have had a chance to get all our AA's filled out and see how the abilities work to end line, then we can all sit down and ask if we were really nerfed or not. If not there will be much rejoicing. If we were nerfed then I will be screaming for Pallies to be fixed just as I hope Pallies will be screaming for Zerkers.I am of the opinion that don't fix what isn't broken, the buff to SK / Zerkers is needed, but to nerf / balance / Fix paladins or whatever you wish to call it, is notEven if we are not nerfed (and the jury is still out on that) we will all have to do one thing as tanks, adjust our play style. Ofcourse we will all adapt, but after 4years of OT career, I do not want to become a second rate / baby jr. guardian, Paladins have been, since launch among the best OT's not MT's, and the "nerf" to paladins is a direct result of SoE trying to make berserkers / shadowknights happy and remove paladins from the entire are of effect stage, which is kind of silly with our 7 blue aoes and 1 green aoe, and trample in AA, call it what you want, if they mess with paladin aggro management, it -is- a nerfI right now hold aggro primarily because even with a shield I can do t2 dps. Without that dps I am next to useless in holding aggro. I can see that after TSO I will only do T2 dps if I dual wield which probably won't be doable as a MT because of surviveability. I will have to learn to use new aggro tools and spend my AA's appropriately in those new and old. As will we all. It appears from looking at the Pally tree on Alakazam that they are in the same boat, Amends may be reduced but there are other tools there to use now. Whether they work or not we will only see by trying to use them. See you all in about 2 months when we are all AA'd out and can figure out what needs fixing and not.You are able to do T2 DPS as a tank? Now, I'm not 100% clear on exacly what kind of numbers that means, but I guess that puts you up with the other DPS classes (minus the top ones), I know for a fact, that Paladin dps is at the bottom of the barrel, only above healers, and slightly above bards, and you also do realize that the fighter 2.0 change is comming, in a few months into TSO, right?Let me just say one more thing which I am sure will PO some people. It might be that after this expansion (actually I am pretty certain of it) that some people will be saying "its harder to tank" or "I need to tank differently". To be honest some tanks (Guards for one) should have a slightly harder time tanking.To be honest guardians should have the lowest DPS of all the fighters and rely the most on taunts etc to keep aggro, I'm sure that berserkers wouldn't be too happy if they suddenly said that they are removing your 100% ae clicky on mythical, all your passive ae abilities, but increasing your single target dps so you could tank single target better, I mean, you didn't roll a zerker to tank 1 mob, right? I sure didn't roll a paladin for this reason.It also probable that some people will be saying they can't tank at all anymore. Likely because the class doesn't fit with the play style they were using and they either can not or will not adjust their style. But thats the way of it in every MMO I have ever played and its never going to change.I don't mind a slight change in -how- I tank, however I do mind a complete revamp of my class into something that it haven't been advertised at over the past 4years of the game being live.</blockquote>Lastly, it's not my wish to offend anyone, however the way that SoE (or Aeralik) have decided to take my class (The Paladin) not only upsets me, but most of the entire paladin community, I don't mind a slight nerf of amends, but then I want something that can compensate for the loss of said % on the threat I will loose by it, the only area a paladin do excell in, is in aggro management, nothing else, thats all we got, and some disputable useful utility (heals), which, lets face it, theres no reason to have if your healers can keep up with the dps output of a named. I don't know a single tank i've talked with who haven't said "Amends is a unfair ability, it needs to be nerfed", however whenever I ask "what would you give paladins in return, to still keep them as a valid, and competitive tank compared to the other classes?", I yet have to get a reply, I once suggested to a berserker, that they put paladin DPS uptop with the berserkers, if we lost amends, trust me, that made him fairly upset, why, I do not know.

Gisallo

11-16-2008, 11:13 PM

<cite>Athrun@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Here is the new aggro tools pallies are getting...well...the ones that either is crusader only or paladin only:</cite><cite>Shadow tab:</cite><cite>Crusader: </cite><cite>Gallantry: Increases threat amount of taunt spells by 5% per level</cite><cite>Paladin: Faithful cry: It's the end one so only get one point in it. This is what it does...or rather what it says it does:</cite><cite>Increases threat to target by 1,922-2,249 instantly and by 1,472-1,799 every 4 seconds thereafter</cite><cite>Inflicts 718-878 divine damage on target instantly and every 4 seconds</cite><cite>Heals caster for 496-607 instantly and every 4 seconds</cite><cite>Inflicts 1821-2175 melee damage on target. </cite><cite>It lasts for 20 seconds and has a refresh of 45 seconds.</cite><cite>Now the reason I said "rather what it says it does" is because that should get me aggro on a mob pretty easily. And yet every time I've used it I have yet to aggro on a mob yet. Now that could be because of some sort of immunity but that seems a bit unlikely that every single mob I've tried it on is immune to it. </cite><cite>Now is any of that worth amends? I think not. </cite><cite></cite></blockquote>First I think it inappropriate to ignore the Fighter tree. It does gives some nice bonuses. Yeah we all have to share it with guards but if it helps it helps. Ultimately though this sorta illustrates my point though. I know Pallies on Beta who have told me "I gotta tank completely differently", "I have to start the encounter in a different way" etc but ultimately they have been able to hold aggro, its just not as (there words not mine) as easy as it used to be, one even described it as being a little more frantic. Thats why I thought it was important to understand "what is amends for". If its just so you can tank, then other tools can replace it. If its to allow you to have the time to also act as utility because you are not having to constantly worry about maintaining aggro, then an entirely different dynamic is generated.Is it pain in th neck to adjust? Yeah. Is it possible that even after we have had the time to use whatever goes live and "get used to it" that it still won't completely make up for it? Yeah. All I am asking for is for people to actually wait until it goes live, the inevitable patches get patched and we all get used to our changes before we say, as any class, "the sky is falling"

Gisallo

11-16-2008, 11:50 PM

<cite>Glerin wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>You are able to do T2 DPS as a tank? Now, I'm not 100% clear on exacly what kind of numbers that means, but I guess that puts you up with the other DPS classes (minus the top ones), I know for a fact, that Paladin dps is at the bottom of the barrel, only above healers, and slightly above bards, and you also do realize that the fighter 2.0 change is comming, in a few months into TSO, right?What I meant by this was that currently I can come close to matching say a Swashy's dps under the right circumstances. I need to do this currently in order to maintain aggro due to my meager taunts. Unlike some zerkers I could care less if I lost dps, if I kept even a slight edge simply because thats the definition of the class "more damage, less durability less taunts" as long as I can maintain aggro. That is why I am withholding any judgement until a few months. Now Pallies do less dps, but for all intents and purposes have a constant aggro feed tool to make up for it. Also as I have said before, I am NOT saying the current proposed nerf is appropriate, it may well be too much, I just think it premature to make a decision one way or the other for any class with the entire change to the way tanks maintain aggro. No the reason some classes got more dps is that Somewhere along the way SOE let dps become such a huge part of aggro management for some tanks it wasn't even funny. This actually took a lot of getting used to because in all the other MMO's I played a tank in I was largely taunt based. Now SOE seems to be changing that, hence the dps nerf. Please be aware it is a nerf. When I look at classes I look at base class ability, not raid equipped or raid buffed, because while I am in a raid guild, the majority of people in this game are not and the game needs to be designed to serve them as well.</blockquote>I yet have to get a reply, I once suggested to a berserker, that they put paladin DPS uptop with the berserkers, if we lost amends, trust me, that made him fairly upset, why, I do not know.</blockquote>I do agree with you on the point regarding AoE versus single target tanking and I whole heartedly support you regarding it. If a class has always been a AoE class (I never rolled a Pally so am only familiar with the class through conversations with those who have) I do have issue if they are going to be changed to a single target class. When a classes raison detre is altered after years, its a hose job. There is a big difference between changing HOW a class does it job and changing what its job is. As for the last bit I think it would be inappropriate for Pallies to replace Amends with dps simply because of the Lore of the classes. Additional taunts, reactive taunts, hate gain linked to melee/divine damage attacks etc would make more sense for a Pally due to the fact that they are the Holy Warrior channeling the will of their god. Zerkers are simply masses of muscle that channel rage into physical force and so it makes logical sense that a larger portion of their aggro would be based on the application of force (dps) onto their target. So thats how I would fix it. reduce amends but add some hate gain to CA's. Make sure that the new hate gain tools in the Crusader and Pally tree work (I think they do from talking with others but one poster seems to dispute this)and I think it will work well.

Niou

11-16-2008, 11:51 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Araris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Been playing the Paladin class since launch and I guess it was bound to happen eventually. Dev's forget that Amends was created so that a paladin could maintain hate while casting heals and such, ie: other class defining skills. In the name of Balance they tend to forget the reasons things were created in the first place.Unless the Paladin recieves some type of compensation for the loss of amends, There will be little to no reason to play the class over an SK anymore. As someone already pointed out, no raid or group is going to want a Paladin over a Guardian when a paladin is just 80% of a Guardian in every single aspect.Oh well, heres hoping, if you can't roll with the changes, you can't play EQ2.</blockquote>First this is not meant to flame but is an honest question. Here you are saying its there to cast your heals and such so you can still maintain hate. Most others seem to be saying that "our heals take to long to cast and so get interuppted all the time so they are useless." Honestly which is it. Does the Paladin bring utility or doesn't it? If it doesn't then Amends needs to get nerfed because it is basically a "click once hold aggro button", if you are utility then perhaps we can talk about working on amends. Until this single issue gets cleared up though the argument will never end.</blockquote>I apologize for not pointing out obvious facts ahead of time in my post. As many others have pointed out, Paladin's fall behind in dps in comparison to all other tanks, we are the lowest. Combine this with the fact that we have heals and a ward which are supposed to be class defining skills, and you have all the reasons you need to justify Amends.It's important to note that Amends is being nerfed simply because of its AoE capability's, not because it is a "click once and hold agro" button for single target situations. Try not to feel vindicated or that SoE is "sticking it to those paladins" because of such a thing. If not for the AoE capability's that amends gives, it would not be nerfed because it is a needed skill due to the non existant taunt's and dps that Paladins possess.This is most likely why other classes, such as a zerker (you), should not post in a paladin's forums, you're uninformed to say the least.but I digress; as I already pointed out, as long as there is compensation for the loss of amends, this will have little effect. Not even SoE is stupid enough to take away amends and not realize that Paladin's do not possess the means to hold hate off a raid. As soon as they designated Zerkers and SK's as being the new AoE tanks, I knew something of this nature was in the works, our amends + warlock/swash combo was overly powerful.Only time will tell how the class will change. At the very least, I'm sure we're going to recieve some type of ability's that will allow us to keep hate on single target's. As for AoE, we'll need to depend on Sigil, Holy Ground, and our own AE's in order to provide us with hate I suppose.

Glerin

11-17-2008, 12:45 AM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do agree with you on the point regarding AoE versus single target tanking and I whole heartedly support you regarding it. If a class has always been a AoE class (I never rolled a Pally so am only familiar with the class through conversations with those who have) I do have issue if they are going to be changed to a single target class. When a classes raison detre is altered after years, its a hose job. There is a big difference between changing HOW a class does it job and changing what its job is. exacly, and this is the part me, and many others have issues with, they are changing us from what we've been doing for the past 4years, into something completely different, if i wanted to be a single target main-tank, i'd roll a guard, not a paladin, they're basically turning us into magic-based guardians, according to the very vague statements we've seen thus far.As for the last bit I think it would be inappropriate for Pallies to replace Amends with dps simply because of the Lore of the classes.This is just something I threw out there because I know it would upset almost every berserker I tossed it at, we all like to stroke ourselves on a parse, even I do whenever i parse high, which is why zerkers got upset when i said we should get their dps if we loose our primary sources of threat generation. I don't want a zerkers dps, they should be outparsing me, by quite large margins, but I still want to be able to compete with / beat their aggro, like we have been for the past 4years.Additional taunts, reactive taunts, hate gain linked to melee/divine damage attacks etc would make more sense for a Pally due to the fact that they are the Holy Warrior channeling the will of their god.which is also why I rolled a paladin, we're divine warriors who do good / smite evils, not some silly guard standing around bashing heads in, as such we should have more "exotic" ways fitting the class to generate hate, Amends is the perfect example: we're taking the blame of others to protect them from harms way.o thats how I would fix it. reduce amends but add some hate gain to CA's. Make sure that the new hate gain tools in the Crusader and Pally tree work (I think they do from talking with others but one poster seems to dispute this)and I think it will work well. So basically, remove our passive hate, make us mash another 3-15buttons in order to generate the same amount of hate... if this is the case, I ask why even bother changing it? I mean, I'm sure assassins would -love- to have all their bighitters split down into 200-500 dmg CA's that they'd have to spam ontop of their current ones, just as guardians or other tanks would love to have their snapaggro abilities into button-mashing abilities instead of 1click, if all they are doing is changing our amends into something that will require me to open up another [Removed for Content] hotbar and mash even more buttons, I will probably tear my hair of in frustration, IMO every class already have too much to buttonmash on!</blockquote>@NiouYou do realize that Sigil of Heroism, will also be nerfed, right?, and most likely, Holy ground changed so it only affects our current target, and lastly, I'll expect some of our AoE's to become single target but harder hitting stuff

Gisallo

11-17-2008, 01:37 AM

<cite>Araris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is most likely why other classes, such as a zerker (you), should not post in a paladin's forums, you're uninformed to say the least.</blockquote>Thank you for clarifying your stance, but perhaps I am a freak. I appreciate when people from outside the zerker and ranger communities come in, A) showing an interest in understanding the class and B) giving an outside oppinion. If you noticed my first question (and I am still trying to find out the "majority" opinion) was to understand what the purpose of Amends was in the context of the class. Yes sometimes its just a troll but sometimes its someone who helps us realize that maybe we haven't seen the forest for the tree, constructive compromise rarely comes from insular thought.

Gisallo

11-17-2008, 01:46 AM

<cite>Glerin wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>So basically, remove our passive hate, make us mash another 3-15buttons in order to generate the same amount of hate... if this is the case, I ask why even bother changing it? I mean, I'm sure assassins would -love- to have all their bighitters split down into 200-500 dmg CA's that they'd have to spam ontop of their current ones, just as guardians or other tanks would love to have their snapaggro abilities into button-mashing abilities instead of 1click, if all they are doing is changing our amends into something that will require me to open up another [Removed for Content] hotbar and mash even more buttons, I will probably tear my hair of in frustration, IMO every class already have too much to buttonmash on!</blockquote></blockquote>Okay. I am confused. Is Amends an aggro with minimal fuss skill or not? You seem to allude here that it is from this, when others say it is not? Again I am not trying to start a fight or anything. I am honestly trying to understand the class. I believe that all players should ight genuine nerfs of classes, whether you play one or not. I have 2 80's a Ranger and Zerker so I totally understand the nerf/red headed step child roller coaster. That being said I don't lend my voice to another classes cry for help until I understand the class and agree that the cause is worthy. Everything I am seeing here is contradictory and seems to boil down to "Amends keeps tanking simple" and that to me is not as important as class balance? If it is a balance issue, and I admit it could be, I am simply looking for a consistent thread arguing this.

Glerin

11-17-2008, 02:04 AM

Amends is our one primary tool to build aggro, view it as all your passive procs as a zerker, loosing all of them wouldn't be too fun I guess..does amends make it easy to hold aggro? no, not if the dps'ers are doing what they should (all of them)does amends make it easier to hold aggro? yes

Gisallo

11-17-2008, 02:48 AM

<cite>Glerin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Amends is our one primary tool to build aggro, view it as all your passive procs as a zerker, loosing all of them wouldn't be too fun I guess..does amends make it easy to hold aggro? no, not if the dps'ers are doing what they should (all of them)does amends make it easier to hold aggro? yes</blockquote>Thank you, that is clear and too the point. I guess the question that was asked by the devs (whether right or wrong) was "should all tanks have a single ability, dependant on another class that makes aggro control easier or should each be as dynamic and self reliant as the next as the next". As you said other tanks have to use lots of buttons to achieve this. There really is no "primary" one click button to make aggro control easier. Most of the classes ended up having to dps to control aggro, the taunts were just sorta a "hi there" (outside of rescue which is a metaphorical kick in the nuts). So I think the crux of the difference between the Pallies and other tanks in teh argument is this. The other tanks are saying "we have been doing this all along so whats your beef?" You are saying "we never had to do that, that was what made us different and why I rolled this class, why should I have to tank like you?" Both sides of that argument have valid points <shrug>. Guess we'll wait and see what comes of it all.

Glerin

11-17-2008, 03:18 AM

then ill state this again: put our dps on par, or above the other tanks, and have us click more buttons, i'd settle for that, but if i gotta click alot more buttons then i currently am, and still parse the lowest, have to heal myself instead of having 30sec+duration mitigation buffs that will lower my incomming damage, better anti-spike abilities then i currently have (and i want some of these to be class specific!), theres NO reason to change amends, it fulfills what it was there for, just as the dps a zerker does fills what its there for.IMO nerfing amends is like shafting cob / potm for a bard.or remove 50-75% of either other tank's dpsor halve the heal abilities of every healer class and make them click more buttons to do what they currently are doing.my point is, theres no reason to change whats currently working, no one should be forced to click more buttons then they currently are, hell, i got 7hotbars open at all times, do i -really- have to open up another one, to do exacly what im currently doing?Edit: and rather then doing those things to said classes, keep it as it is.

Niou

11-17-2008, 05:08 PM

<blockquote>@NiouYou do realize that Sigil of Heroism, will also be nerfed, right?, and most likely, Holy ground changed so it only affects our current target, and lastly, I'll expect some of our AoE's to become single target but harder hitting stuff</blockquote>Actually, I doubt that sigil and holy ground will be touched at all. All Tanks need a means by which to control hate from an AoE stand point. Guardian is by far the class thats currently engineered for single target tanking, and yet even they possess ability's such as this. The sole reason amends will be nerfed is because it is a -continuing- flow of threat to the Paladin; where as Sigil and holy ground last for a short time and have recasts.At this point its all assumptions so the point is really moot, try not to think the sky is falling. Just remember that SoE, while they do tend to jump first and look around second, are not going to destroy a tank classes ability to hold hate completely, when their main goal is the ability to balance all tanks.For all those saying that there's no point to change anything, and please don't change anything, etc etc, You're wasting your breath. Things are going to change. The Dev's decided that SK's and Zerkers are the AoE tanks from now on, and that Paladin's and Guardian's are the single target tanks. Because of our ability to hold AoE hate above that of other tanks with the use of amends, it will change.Heh, this reminds me of my reaction when they decided to change our class at the start of Desert of Flames. Hated it, but had to deal with it. Same thing is happening now, I hate it, but we all have to deal with it and adjust to the changes.Instead of whining about the loss of amends, It'd be more useful to start a thread asking and suggesting conpensation for the loss of amends. IE: We're supposed to be the new single target tanks, yet as of the new xpac, we have 1 stoneskin ability that absorbs a total of 1 hit. Our heals are still drasticly underpowered, and our ward too small.Our Inability to stoneskin hits is a far greater concern to me at the moment, than our loss of amends, why? Because amends IS going away, which means we're going to have to figure out a way to be single target tanks on par with Guardians. Not only that, but with the expansion coming and mob's gaining the ability to crit, a guardian's stoneskin ability's will prove to be the most useful they've ever been. YET, we're being asked to be the same type of tank, without any defenses to do so.

Chia_Pet

11-17-2008, 07:11 PM

Threat is gained by a variety of means, DPS, is one, taunts are another. the pally doesnt have the DPS of a guard a SK or a Bezerker, we are the lowest, thus we need some make up. amends is part of that. however, it is also dependent on the class and person it is put on. making the tank more reliable on another person then just himself, thus making it a bit MORE difficult as a tank. if the player spikes alot and doesnt keep dps at a high constant lvl, then we lose aggro. we DEPEND on amends many times to maintain aggro. and as a tank, it is our class defining niche. we hold aggro. guards take hits, SKs do damage, etc. we cant take the large spike damage a guard can, we cant heal ourselves as good as even a SK with his taps. theres nothing wrong with one tank class being better at something then others. sadly Airlik doesnt have a clue how the pally works, nor does he care, he raids with a zerker, and guess what? he wants his zerker to be the Main OT. end of story.

Raidyen

11-17-2008, 07:38 PM

Well i personally am not to worried about the loss of amends. While it is extremely nice, it puts the dependancy of a paladin's agro management on the DPSer in the group. Now that said, DO NOT turn paladins into single target tanks. Thats not what they have been, EVER!I dont freakin understand SOE and thier desire to attempt to fix things that are not broken. I am fine with one type of tank being SLIGHTLY better then another in certain things. Thats what gives the class its unique place in the game. I just dont get why they have to completely change the paladin because they messed up the Shadowknight and Zerker for the last 2 years.Not exactly sure why they dont just make the Shadowknight the Single target agro class along with the gaurd, and have the zerker pally as the AoE ones. Its not like the Shadowknights have been able to hold a lick of agro as it is, so im sure they would have been thrilled with single target agro management. But instead they decide to give the SK the pally role, then give the paladin the back seat to the Warrior/Gaurdian which is where they have been since EQ1 launched in 1999. Not sure why SOE has this hatered of Paladins, but it defenitaly is turning into a Very predictable and bad trend.

Elanjar

11-17-2008, 08:57 PM

I would wait for Fighter revamp 2.0 before judging the change. I think part of the reason they are "nerfing" amends is 1) because the dps is getting well... ridiculous dps so the hate generated by amends would be a bit much, however the second point is the important part 2) i think the whole point of fighter revamp 2.0 is to make fighters less dependent on hate transfers and more self-sufficient in the agro department. Supposedly (2.0) will be affecting all classes that have to do with hate transfers, so we may see dirges, coercers, assasins, swashies etc... hate transfers being "nerfed" or at least "modified" with the next bout of changes.

Kigneer

11-18-2008, 01:39 PM

<cite>Araris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Dev's decided that SK's and Zerkers are the AoE tanks from now on, and that Paladin's and Guardian's are the single target tanks. Because of our ability to hold AoE hate above that of other tanks with the use of amends, it will change.Heh, this reminds me of my reaction when they decided to change our class at the start of Desert of Flames. Hated it, but had to deal with it. Same thing is happening now, I hate it, but we all have to deal with it and adjust to the changes.</blockquote>In other words, nerf the Pallys yet again.The one good thing Pallys can do is now handed off to SKs and Bezerkers, as the "AoE tanks", too.I specced my Pally for AoE combat, as it's the ONE thing that Pallys can do better than other tanks. But to learn now even that is going to be nerfed, makes me want to put the devs in a Crushbone torture chair. Players spend days of their lives learning and building their characters, only to have it changed to the point the class isn't what you learned to changed for. SOME change is fine and good, but every 6 months the base goodness of a class changed? Heck, no.Keep believing that the devs really don't know how to balance the tanks in this game. They have the Guardians who are designated MTs, but are poor at mob control. Then Paladins are reneged to OT status (if they even get a raid slot) as AoE fighters. Now to only find out even that will be removed with SKs and 'zerks getting AoE attacks.SoE give each tank class ONE special ability, not overlap the specialities. Should be a reason to chose playing a Pally, and not to just look good in shining armor. Making Pallys single-target Guardians with heals is an insult. If I wanted a single target killer, I'd have a Wizard as a main, hells bells about tanking.

Kigneer

11-18-2008, 02:15 PM

<cite>Chia_Pet wrote:</cite><blockquote>sadly Airlik doesnt have a clue how the pally works, nor does he care, he raids with a zerker, and guess what? he wants his zerker to be the Main OT. end of story.</blockquote>Explains a lot, especially how a Bezerker can now be a AoE tank. It appears the devs rarely play the Pally role (and suffer due to their persistent and constant hate for this class). Can't even give us ONE speciality, no they give us 4+ that are low level and not in demand in a group or raid, as other classes are specialized.Thought devs are suppose to be more impartial to classes. It appears that's not the case with EQ2. Where Eve has playing devs that help the largest guilds with rares; this game has devs that prefer certain classes over others -- then wants other classes to "learn to change" as their mains enjoy the day.Need every dev involved with fighter classes to spend time as a Pally main (should be doing this anyway with every class, to test their tweaks), with monthly rotations. This way they can see and feel why folks come to forums and dump their spleen (and yes, people do so because if they were happy they're PLAYING not chit chatting).Biggest mistake in EQ2 is having so many classes, and making folks choose between good and evil of a class. When evil can mix with good in groups to kill evil things...Hello, Houston we have a.........???? Seriously need to rethink -- not patch -- the direction of this game. If it was messed up in 1999, it needs a 2009 overhaul -- with devs that have played each class to it's fullest.

NANEEJE

11-18-2008, 02:16 PM

still have amends. Post closed.

Full_Metal_Mage

11-18-2008, 02:19 PM

Arlik is talking about nerfing Amends as part of Stage 2 of his fighter redesign debacle, not as part of LU 50.

Fellindar

11-18-2008, 02:30 PM

Does anyone have solid details about this revamp - not only what changes we have heard of for the Paladin but for all fighters.I don't mind the idea of loosing amends if the Paladin recieves other skills (taunts, DPS, maybe a change to our ward - lower power cost, self only, hate procing with increased ward amount or something).I'm not really ready to completely condemn the changes without full details - however I do not like the sound of Paladin's becomming a "Single Target" tank, expecially if Guardians are still going to 100% own that niche.Maybe being more self reliant for hate generation is for the best - we'll have to wait and see.p.s.please be careful not to kill my favorite class SOE

Gisallo

11-18-2008, 02:52 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chia_Pet wrote:</cite><blockquote>sadly Airlik doesnt have a clue how the pally works, nor does he care, he raids with a zerker, and guess what? he wants his zerker to be the Main OT. end of story.</blockquote>Explains a lot, especially how a Bezerker can now be a AoE tank. It appears the devs rarely play the Pally role (and suffer due to their persistent and constant hate for this class). Can't even give us ONE speciality, no they give us 4+ that are low level and not in demand in a group or raid, as other classes are specialized.</blockquote>Just a side note. Zerkers always were AoE tanks. 1 ridiculous radius AoE taunt (also our most effective taunt after rescue)1 taunt group encounter which can be cast even when stunned/stiffled1 attack/stun group encounter1 AoE1 frontal cone AoE attack1 self buff to do damage to every mob that attacks us1 entire AA line in the zerker line to increase the effectiveness and radius of AE'sI will agree that it appears for some bizarre reason the Pally is being made single target and the SK is being made an AoE tank, but thats where the REAL swap is being made, not with the Zerker. This "rebalancing" is most profundly effecting the relationship between the "mirror" classes (Guard vs Zerk, Pally vs SK etc). Just trying to keep things in perspective.

PhelanWolf

11-18-2008, 03:03 PM

I feel that nerfing any skill a player has had for years is just asking for players to move on to other games. Yes with TSO paladins get some nice increasses in dps...BUT so does every other class. There are many times a paladin is not dpsing in a fight...healing and Stuning (When a mob take combat damage stun is knocked off). A good paladin is NEVER idle in a fight. Even with amends (41% master) Your AOE caster are making it hard to keep add mobs under control. OH YA Good luck finding that master amends....lol I have been a loyal customer for about 11 years..playing a paladin in EQ1 and EQ2. I must admit, Im getting very tired of the hidden and not-hidden changes to player classes. I humbly ask that the nerf to amends not be place into effect. I wont tell SOE I'll be closeing my familys accounts or silly things like that if the nurf bat hits paladins again. But as a consumer I will need to ask myself why am I paying alot of my hard earn cash on a game that does know where its going and changes its game mechanics as offen as the weather changes.

Kigneer

11-18-2008, 04:33 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I will agree that it appears for some bizarre reason the Pally is being made single target and the SK is being made an AoE tank, but thats where the REAL swap is being made, not with the Zerker. This "rebalancing" is most profundly effecting the relationship between the "mirror" classes (Guard vs Zerk, Pally vs SK etc). Just trying to keep things in perspective. </blockquote>Yes, I can see Bezerkers as AoE tanks, but in the end giving another class the ability to take Paladins out of raiding (or high end groups) is a real kick in the posterior.Futhermore, the confusion is because the devs can't seem to balance the classes. They gave Paladins a little of everything, but our motto lives true -- "Jack of all trades, master of none". So no matter what class or "mirror" of a class changes, Pallys will be second-tier because they don't have ONE speciality that doesn't overlap. By giving the green light to Bezerkers in the AoE/OT role, that's just one more slap to Pallys "end game".Some of you guys are much more tolerant to these changes because you're used to SoE fiddling classes, I'm not. I'm level 64 now, specced and respecced the character and finally found what works. Now that's changed, and having to await until it's affordable to respec again. Coming from FPS games having the core abilities to fight changed so radically is unheard of. Sure there's some changes, but base fighting abilities (hit boxes; rates of fire; ammo spread, etc.) are only slightly tweaked. Here, complete roles are reversed on an update whim. Frustrating to say the least.Are Paladins Guardians with heals now? Is that the direction Devs are going?

Dreyco

11-18-2008, 08:38 PM

Logged in to find Amends untouched today. Is this a yay for Paladins?

Hamervelder

11-18-2008, 11:51 PM

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>Logged in to find Amends untouched today. Is this a yay for Paladins?</blockquote>Until Aeralik gets around to part 2 of his nefarious scheme at some point in the future.

Rast

11-19-2008, 12:02 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Araris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Been playing the Paladin class since launch and I guess it was bound to happen eventually. Dev's forget that Amends was created so that a paladin could maintain hate while casting heals and such, ie: other class defining skills. In the name of Balance they tend to forget the reasons things were created in the first place.Unless the Paladin recieves some type of compensation for the loss of amends, There will be little to no reason to play the class over an SK anymore. As someone already pointed out, no raid or group is going to want a Paladin over a Guardian when a paladin is just 80% of a Guardian in every single aspect.Oh well, heres hoping, if you can't roll with the changes, you can't play EQ2.</blockquote>First this is not meant to flame but is an honest question. Here you are saying its there to cast your heals and such so you can still maintain hate. Most others seem to be saying that "our heals take to long to cast and so get interuppted all the time so they are useless." Honestly which is it. Does the Paladin bring utility or doesn't it? If it doesn't then Amends needs to get nerfed because it is basically a "click once hold aggro button", if you are utility then perhaps we can talk about working on amends. Until this single issue gets cleared up though the argument will never end.</blockquote>Basically the best way to think of amends is, it is just a reverse version of the hate transfers from swashies and assassins, it simply provides us with more flexibility. For example, we might be able to use a brigand or ranger (I've done this) for hate instead of insisting upon an assassin or swashy for that hate transfer. So in truth, it isn't anymore a one button hate gain than any tank has access to, ours is just a bit more flexible than other fighter classes.Also it does allow us to use our heals (which while difficult to use in raiding, aren't impossible). I'm against the whole adding taunts to our CAs thing because that is agro we can not turn off, like we can with amends, allowing us to fit into other roles in a group or raid, if the only role we have is as a MT (which doesn't bother me as that was my role when I raided anyways) but we only do it at 80% of a guardian, what point is there in the class?If I wanted a class that played like a guardian, tanked like a guardian and worked like a guardian, don't you think I would of rolled a guardian? I like the way the palladin plays, it is harder than the guard, more active than the guard and in general more fun than a guard and I like to do more with less, which is why I did MT raids as a pally and I did it rather well too.The pally class didn't need any major changes (including this one), just a couple of minor fixes to make us very desirable tanks, alas, I doubt it will happen and we'll become guardian lights and become forgotten on the raiding scene out of complete lack of desirability.

Kigneer

11-19-2008, 03:40 PM

<cite>Jalathan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If I wanted a class that played like a guardian, tanked like a guardian and worked like a guardian, don't you think I would of rolled a guardian? I like the way the palladin plays, it is harder than the guard, more active than the guard and in general more fun than a guard and I like to do more with less, which is why I did MT raids as a pally and I did it rather well too.The pally class didn't need any major changes (including this one), just a couple of minor fixes to make us very desirable tanks, alas, I doubt it will happen and we'll become guardian lights and become forgotten on the raiding scene out of complete lack of desirability.</blockquote>^^ FTW ^^Rolled a Guardian and stopped playing him (except for tradeskilling). From the classes I've tried, it's the most boring to play (and could also be the reason I rarely ever see a Guardian in a fight that isn't a full specced group -- they need almost all of the classes to keep him alive and hitting -- and with the population of EQ2, they're not always on). See Pallys almost everywhere tho, along with more solo friendly classes. Duo groups and mentoring groups love Pallys as they can survive without too much interdependence (when nuking, folks aren't healing, for example), especially those who aren't healers (like Assassins) but need some to survive instances and yet also need a tank (folks appreciate the rez with full health and in combat a Pally can bring to the group...play RE and see what a wipe means!).I get too many mentoring requests now, inside and outside the guild. Hopefully, by doing so many folks also will see Pallys as more than JUST a tank, and spread some goodness of the class around to the next generation not so tainted by class specs. Nice to see the LFG calls aren't LFGuard. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />End game this class may have difficulty, but there's no shortage of fun things to do (and grouping) below level 80 for Pallies (plus making new friends -- can't count the times I'm in a dungeon testing configs, and someone needing a hand and helped them finish a quest, and the thanks this class gets for it's abilities to scale with almost any group or class).Don't change the Amends IMPROVE it to compensate for spikes!

RoXx

11-20-2008, 09:55 AM

Stay away from amends and sigil!!

Full_Metal_Mage

11-20-2008, 07:42 PM

Is that a warning to players, or a protest against the impending nerfage?

Bryte

12-05-2008, 05:12 PM

**Copied from the other forum**This is the first post I have ever made in the SoE fourms.I have 4 lvl 80 Pala's and 2 lvl 80 Guards spread out over 2 accounts on several servers (Including PvP).Amends is key to noobies holding agro while playing in PuGs for mid lvling content.Take that away, or somehow nerf it and the class will be very unfufillng for players when they hit the higher tiers.How in blue blazes would you hold agro from a Myth'd Troube slumming it thru CoA with you without Amends?Sure i would love to see heals never be interupted, mit buffs, 53 triggers of death prevention, but i also want a pony with wings.Please leave Amends as is for the rest of the 'lil Pals that will never have Mayong on farm mode.

Maveric_LOL

12-05-2008, 07:28 PM

I suggest you devs think very carefully before touching amends. If you go there and nerf it thats a scenario that simply cant end well. The paladin community has suffered through and accepted a lot of mistreatment, we watched the gap widen between us and guardians in terms of survivability, we watched the dps gap grow between us and zerkers, we accepted a game mechanic change that greatly increased interupts which hurt our ability to ward and heal, we were for the most part placid and accepting of spells that diddent scale for 3 expansions, AA's that diddent scale correctly and some that plain just did not work in end game scenarios.Touching amends is a bad idea. It is a fairly huge deal if you take away amends for us to hold hate against the kind of insane dps raids and even groupds are doing these days your going to have to give us something pretty huge to compensate for that and dont tell me your just going to give me extra taunts or add hate to CA's and spells if your going to take away an ability as substantial as amends i want to see something substantial that i can point to and say there, thats what i got to replace amends, sure you can ALSO add hate to ca's etc maybe an inate hate % increase but namely im talking DPS and lots of it.Thats why i say touching amends is a bad idea for you to make a nerf to amends palatable to paladins your gonna have to shell out something pretty substantial to make up for it and what people are going to want to see is more single target dps and huge boosts is aoe dps. Take away amends and give us anything less and i suspect your going to have a full blown riot on your hands.The problem is if you give us more DPS your gonna [Removed for Content] off zerkers and SK's as DPS has always been their niche. Also if you take away amends what changes are you going to make to warlocks and swashies so they wont have to hold back dps instead of going full out like they normally do with amends.Like one of the other posters said, if you want to fix zerkers and SK's abilities to aoe tank then fix them, dont nerf us. Guilds carry plate tanks for a specific role, the single target tank role is locked down permantly at this point i dont see anything changing that. To nerf amends will reduce the paladins ability to hold agro not only in single target scenarios but more importantly on multi mob encounters. If you do that, we now have a tank that is somewhat less suited to single target tanking than a guard, and is now inferior to the zerker and the SK when it comes to AOE tanking. Once that happens what happens to all the paladins? If we accept the the guard is THE single target tank and we have a scenario where the other 3 plate tanks are equally adept at AOE tanking then thats a situation i can live with, it will come down to the individual guild and player and there will be a mix of pally/zerker/sk in the OT role. But dont fix zerkers by fixing nerfing paladins, thats not the answer.

Aeralik

12-05-2008, 08:04 PM

Keep in mind we are looking into changing all hate transfer and siphon skills. So this isnt just paladin amends, its assassin and swashbuckler hate transfers as well. The amends line will remain powerful but our goal here is to put more emphasis on the tank gaining aggro themselves and less on other people supplying them the hate for free as things have been done in the past. Some special cases transfer and siphon skills will remain but for the most part things will change to emphasize the player controlling their own hate.Just keep in mind the changes in part 2 are fairly broad and hate transfers are just one small aspect of the overall changes.

Bremer

12-05-2008, 08:10 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Keep in mind we are looking into changing all hate transfer and siphon skills. So this isnt just paladin amends, its assassin and swashbuckler hate transfers as well. The amends line will remain powerful but our goal here is to put more emphasis on the tank gaining aggro themselves and less on other people supplying them the hate for free as things have been done in the past. Some special cases transfer and siphon skills will remain but for the most part things will change to emphasize the player controlling their own hate.</blockquote>Will the changes only touch classes? What about items, like the shield from Trakanon with a group hate transfer?

Dasein

12-05-2008, 10:31 PM

If you want to give players more control over hate/agro, the system has to be made more transparent. Hate/agro cannot remain a mystery mechanic - it needs to be visible and parsable so players can develop real strategies for its management. This means giving us some sort of hate ranking display and showing taunt values in the combat text so parsers like ACT can pick it up. Lacking this transparency, it is effectively impossible to develop intelligent agro management strategies.

Aeralik

12-05-2008, 10:33 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you want to give players more control over hate/agro, the system has to be made more transparent. Hate/agro cannot remain a mystery mechanic - it needs to be visible and parsable so players can develop real strategies for its management. This means giving us some sort of hate ranking display and showing taunt values in the combat text so parsers like ACT can pick it up. Lacking this transparency, it is effectively impossible to develop intelligent agro management strategies.</blockquote>All of which are part of the next update <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Powers

12-06-2008, 01:32 AM

Arg, not more numbers to parse! Take a page from Puzzle Pirates and keep the numbers *more* hidden, not less. People are already too obsessed with numbers. The average player can't keep track of all these numbers and is getting discouraged as a result.Powers &8^]

Nathdorl

12-06-2008, 08:56 AM

please please please please do NOT put an aggrometer into eq2!!!!!!!thatd make the game prolly almost as easy and mindless as WoW is.how's that sound: put the aggro-log-lines to the test and testcopy servers, let people test out the aggro stuff for a month or two and then remove the aggro-logs again and not push them to live servers at all

Powers

12-06-2008, 12:28 PM

<cite>Nathdorl wrote:</cite><blockquote>please please please please do NOT put an aggrometer into eq2!!!!!!!thatd make the game prolly almost as easy and mindless as WoW is.</blockquote>Easy? The real difficulty is in keeping up with all those numbers they're tossing around. By exposing the numbers, the devs encourage min-maxing and increase the demand from the player base for explanations of exactly what every dang number means. They want to know exactly how much benefit they get from +10 to heals so they can min-max down to the sixth decimal position.Exposing these numbers may make the game easier for people who already have a deep understanding of how the aggro system works, but it will make the game a lot harder for Joe Average Tank, because now he has another numerical stat he has to min-max to be considered a "good tank".And don't we have enough such stats already?Powers &8^]

JenarieII

12-06-2008, 02:54 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you want to give players more control over hate/agro, the system has to be made more transparent. Hate/agro cannot remain a mystery mechanic - it needs to be visible and parsable so players can develop real strategies for its management. This means giving us some sort of hate ranking display and showing taunt values in the combat text so parsers like ACT can pick it up. Lacking this transparency, it is effectively impossible to develop intelligent agro management strategies.</blockquote>All of which are part of the next update <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I really hope you are joking? I don't want a new system I like the game I'm already playing. Why does every fix have to be a totally new things? Why is there never a small fix that actually fixes something? Things go from totally overpowered to totally useless; I don't remember ever seeing anything go from overpowered to just good. What's wrong with just making small changes to FIX what is broken?

Glerin

12-07-2008, 08:20 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The amends line will remain powerfulwill it remain an ability that will keep us raid-viable like it does now, or will it simply become a new taunt button we gotta click, so we don't threat guardians as their MT spot, i seem to recall a quote on another forum, that stated that even though your turning paladins into Single target tanks, guardians will "hold the upper edge"?but our goal here is to put more emphasis on the tank gaining aggro themselves and less on other people supplying them the hate for free as things have been done in the past. Some special cases transfer and siphon skills will remain but for the most part things will change to emphasize the player controlling their own hate.I'm glad this is a goal, i truly am, and I'm not too worried if you make me work more for my own aggro instead of something else,Just keep in mind the changes in part 2 are fairly broad and hate transfers are just one small aspect of the overall changes.The change almost every single paladin (Raiding, and grouping) is worried and sore in our behinds about, is the fact you intend to make us single target tanks, which we have not been at -any- point, since this game launched, a complete class-revamp such as that, is a ~very~ late, and in my opinion, not well thought through change, atm theres 3 single target tanks (guard,monk,bruiser, although you can dispute brawler tanks.. but that belongs in another topic); and 3x aoe tanks (paladin,zerker,shadowknight), this is a good balance.</blockquote>lastly I'd just like to say that I dislike the idea of being able to "parse aggro"; unless you completely remove all DPS from tanks and turn all their abilities into taunt-like abilities that isnt damaging the mob, but just providing threat.

Niou

12-08-2008, 04:51 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Keep in mind we are looking into changing all hate transfer and siphon skills. So this isnt just paladin amends, its assassin and swashbuckler hate transfers as well. The amends line will remain powerful but our goal here is to put more emphasis on the tank gaining aggro themselves and less on other people supplying them the hate for free as things have been done in the past. Some special cases transfer and siphon skills will remain but for the most part things will change to emphasize the player controlling their own hate.Just keep in mind the changes in part 2 are fairly broad and hate transfers are just one small aspect of the overall changes.</blockquote>Hmm, good to know. At least it looks like they won't be merely going through the amends line with a wrecking crew and leaving us to pick up the pieces. Only time will tell from here.

thog_zork

12-08-2008, 12:02 PM

I got a very bad feeling about this changes ... please no aggrometer !

JalentSko

12-09-2008, 12:28 AM

SOE, please think this through. Read this thread, ask some more questions, and look at some more numbers. I love my Paladin and he is the only class I really play in EQ2. As a matter of fact the paladin is the very reason I am even playing EQ2. I hated what blizzard did to the paladin and loved the EQ2 paladin and consequently EQ2 became my main game.As much as I like the idea of being able to control my own agro I think you would be ruining a defining "flavor" of the EQ2 paladin. It really stinks when you don't have a good amends target and is really great when you do. Half of learning to play a pally is learning who to amends and when.I know that even with the new TSO taunts, the fast casting spells (thank you), and all my taunts and AA's; I still have to work to keep agro. Right now I am missing shoulders for the first tier of shard armor and have the fabled epic. I enjoy my pally because even with amends I really have to stay on top of things to keep agro. Isn't that how it should be? What exactly is broken or overpowered about pallies because I just don't see it.Pallies are happy and I don't hear anyone (players) screaming nerf. Leave them alone. If SKs and zerkers need some love then do it. Think about what makes those classes cool and unique and build off of those concepts to help them where needed.I do note that the Aeralik makes it very clear that it is just not amends getting nerfed but all hate transfer and siphons. Has anyone heard any players complaining about this? Why the big change? This seems pretty huge to me and if you have a good reason for it you really need to sell it to your player base first SOE. There is much love out there for EQ2 right now (IMO), a bad move now would be even bigger than the NGE fiasco everyone has been quoting. Please think this through and if you have already - give us more information and get some feedback before you jump!

Hikinami

12-09-2008, 07:27 AM

I don't think you hear many other people screaming about the hate transfer is because none of them are as big as ours or as important to the class. No one elses hate transfer is their class defining skill or what keeps them and thier group alive. I'm not fabled out, I don't have a mythical and I work for my aggro. I hit the new rescues and taunts when I need them and I do to keep them off of these huge dps classes even with amends. I don't want to be watered down guardian, tried the class and hated it. I don't raid and it was BORING as heck. If we're going to be the single target tank with guardians and not be the red headed step child we need something to set us apart. Are we going to have raid and heroic tanks too now?

QuaiCon

12-09-2008, 11:44 AM

paladin definitely should not become a weaker guardian version, and if you cut down amends and take away aoe aggro and make single target tanks out of us then we most likely will be the 2nd single target tank that noone uses since guardian can do taht too and better.also i really hate the idea of seeing a aggrometer in eq2, there should not be a way of directly knowing when you have to cut back as a dps or use a big taunt as a tank. the tools in game are allready good enough, and if a player keeps a watch on a dps parse on another screen then he allready gets nearly too much information.

Loxus

12-09-2008, 03:14 PM

Please just increase the threat levels of our current taunts. Don't give us more buttons! I'm running with 5 hotbars the way it is, we don't need anymore. Game graphics are alot more fun to watch than a wall of hotbars.Oh, and more surviveability, and DPS Please <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (Hey, it can't hurt to ask).

Gilmartin

12-10-2008, 01:15 AM

I think an aggro meter is a great idea. When tanking, I'll have a much better idea on wether I've *only just* lost agrro, which I'll recover with my next taunt, or if some Wiz has Fission'd his way to so much aggro that I'll need to Peel/Taunt instead to recapture aggro.I'm curious as to how it will display each group member's current aggro vs multiple mobs in an AoE encounter - will be a great tool to know if I've lost aggro to an AOE DPS class an add without having to cycle through targets.When DPSing, it will make it so much easier to do the max possible DPS output without taking aggro. Huzzah!

MirageKnight

12-24-2008, 05:54 PM

Not sure how many of these ppl knows about "Holy Ground", 45sec recastablable 24postion hate up for about 10sec which is more like cheat hate spell, along with Amend, which might get changed.Some paladin complains about Zerker/SK to have better dps but truth is that PAL can do dmg as much as them. Skilled SK and Paladin sure can do about same dmg atm (which is not fair for SK, for less hate utility) depends on grp and raid setup.Hate wise? No tank can beat Holy Ground (45sec recast) + Amend for single or AoE hate.

Ocello

12-24-2008, 07:51 PM

Plus the 5% transfer coming from your friendly monk in raid....should always be on MT in raid situations as hate transfer and uber avoidance check.

Shandris

12-26-2008, 12:29 AM

<cite>MirageKnight wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not sure how many of these ppl knows about "Holy Ground", 45sec recastablable 24postion hate up for about 10sec which is more like cheat hate spell, along with Amend, which might get changed.Some paladin complains about Zerker/SK to have better dps but truth is that PAL can do dmg as much as them. Skilled SK and Paladin sure can do about same dmg atm (which is not fair for SK, for less hate utility) depends on grp and raid setup.Hate wise? No tank can beat Holy Ground (45sec recast) + Amend for single or AoE hate.</blockquote>I'm sorry, but Holy Ground's recast is 1min 30s. Still a great tool mindyou.But has everyone forgotten the earlier hate transfer nerfs? I remember my swash's transfer almost halved. So I don't like our chances of amends staying "Powerful".

Bruener

12-26-2008, 07:09 PM

And yet if Amends was halved it would still be the single greatest hate transfer out there. A testament of how powerful it is.

Azurro

12-26-2008, 07:37 PM

What blows me away is why are they trying to make us single target tanks?Depending on AA build we have 7 or so AOE’sWe have 2 Agro siphons (one single target, one short term group)We have 2 direct taunts (one single target, one group) + rescue which all tanks have and the choice of one new taunt just like it that all tanks can take from the fighter shadow line.We have 1 direct attack that also generates hate We have 1 take us to the top of the agro list for a short time ability that works well with our AOE’s.It’s painfully obvious to anyone who looks at our abilities that given our large number of AOE’s and few number of direct attacks with a agro component that we are geared to be AOE tanks more then anything. I look at that list and see all the things SOE is going to have to change to make us single target tanks and it really scares me.What are they going to turn Sigil and Amends into?How many of our AOE’s are they going to take away?Which single target abilities will get hate added to them and which will not?How will they change Holy Ground if they leave us with AOE’s?Are they going to change the 6 piece bonus on our level 77 fabled set gear?What is being talked about is a huge change to the very core of our class and if SOE isn’t extremely careful they could very easily make the entire game unplayable for any but the most perfectly constructed groups.Holy Ground is a nice ability but it’s not the end all hate tool that a lot of non pally’s think it is. It puts us 1 hate point above the next highest person on the agro list whenever we hit something for a very short time. That means I can get agro but I can’t hold it unless I’m out generating everyone else. You can get the recast down to 45 seconds if your wearing a full set of VP set gear and dump some points in AA”s but it takes a lot of work to get the recast down that low.As for Amends, we have one direct attack that has hate on it and two taunts on short timers. Compare that to how many on Guards? As a raiding Pally OT I can say that agro is pretty well balanced between Guards and Pally’s right now. We each have our strengths and weaknesses but on the whole I don’t see either one having an advantage over the other hate wise. Now if SOE wanted to do something about the avoidance gap between our two classes go ahead.

Full_Metal_Mage

12-27-2008, 01:20 AM

I think Aerlik is looking at the fighter archetype problem from the wrong angle. He should look at the balance question in terms of Main Tanking and Off Tanking, rather than single target tanking and AoE tanking. The Brawler classes have never seemed really tanky to me, but more scouty than anything. If the devs could think in those terms, I think they could find a solution to balancing.As it is, I think they're about to 'fix' a class which is not broken. I have to wonder just what percentage of Paladins will betray to Shadow Knight after LU51.

Kordran

12-29-2008, 01:09 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>And yet if Amends was halved it would still be the single greatest hate transfer out there. A testament of how powerful it is.</blockquote>If they halved it, it really wouldn't be much of an issue because threat transfer is capped at 50%. Given a typical, reasonable group build, you're already over cap and the effectiveness of Amends has already been reduced.The problem isn't just Amends, it's that they're apparently looking to nerf all forms of threat transfer. They could do that several ways. Reduce the percentages outright, reduce the cap, or some combination. For example, they could make the M1 version of Amends transfer 20%, but they could also set the transfer cap at 25%.I have no problem with them reducing the effectiveness of Amends if, and only if, they give Paladins the tools to effectively maintain the same amount of control over encounters. In fact, allowing us to be "more responsible for our own threat generation" could be a positive thing overall, but it does remove some of the uniqueness of the class. It's also a problem if this is balanced by only providing additional threat tools as high-end achievement abilities; it would disproportionately hurt lower level Paladins, as well as those who (for whatever reason) don't have as many APs.

Jeenyous

12-29-2008, 02:55 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you want to give players more control over hate/agro, the system has to be made more transparent. Hate/agro cannot remain a mystery mechanic - it needs to be visible and parsable so players can develop real strategies for its management. This means giving us some sort of hate ranking display and showing taunt values in the combat text so parsers like ACT can pick it up. Lacking this transparency, it is effectively impossible to develop intelligent agro management strategies.</blockquote>All of which are part of the next update <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Well thank you for at least responding Aeralik and clarifying.BUT, if you truly want to see players control their own aggro, including the tanks, and especially Paladins, then you need to leave Amends and other passive hate transfer spells alone. Many times they are the sole reason hate remains on the tank in certain circumstances like when the tank is hindered in some way, such as by fear, stifle or stun to name a few.Amends working passively, along with other hate transfer abilities make competing with these overpowered affects mobs and environments place upon us, while half of our abilities are completely resisted by the mobs themselves at endgame.Removing such passive hate transfers and relying solely upon one character's ability to actively manage hate all the time is going to make this a game of tank taunting and all the others detaunting instead of doing fun things like feeling like you are actually fighting a foe. DPS parses will decrease and fights will last longer causing power issues, which appear to already be the case here lately for some reason.So, what is the true intent here anyway to go through all of this? Job security, lime light? You could actually work yourself out of those favorable circumstances if you go and seriously mess up this MAJOR mechanic royally in the end.Taking away passive aggro management tools is a huge mistake if that is what you are planning to do. EQ2 will become a taunt / detaunt fest and that is not fun. We like to swing our swords and cast our spells, some active aggro management like what is in place now is acceptable, making it a full time job to watch an Aggro Meter is not.Be careful. EDIT: I love my Paladin's AoEs! Don't muck that up as well please.

Vain

12-29-2008, 03:10 PM

What I 'm figuring is we'll get to keep Amends/Sigil/Holy Ground/etc.... but all of the hate/threat transfer numbers will be re-set to 0 and then we can use Station Cash to purchase threat transfers in increments of 1%, 5% or 10%!

Kordran

12-29-2008, 03:14 PM

<cite>Jeenyous wrote:</cite><blockquote>BUT, if you truly want to see players control their own aggro, including the tanks, and especially Paladins, then you need to leave Amends and other passive hate transfer spells alone. Many times they are the sole reason hate remains on the tank in certain circumstances like when the tank is hindered in some way, such as by fear, stifle or stun to name a few.Amends working passively, along with other hate transfer abilities make competing with these overpowered affects mobs and environments place upon us, while half of our abilities are completely resisted by the mobs themselves at endgame.</blockquote>Paladins have tools to deal with this; for example, Aura of the Crusader breaks any mez/root/stun/stifle and makes you immune to those effects for a while. The problem is that it requires you have a significant number of APs to get it, and that is what has me concerned. I'm not so worried about what's going to happen to Paladins who are raid geared, have >175 APs and so on. But for lesser-geared and lower level Paladins with fewer APs, these changes could end up making the class much more difficult to play unless they're very careful.Generally speaking, GU51 could actually prove to be beneficial changes for raiding Paladins, but detrimental to more casual players. This is what's making a lot of folks nervous.

Azurro

12-29-2008, 05:53 PM

I have not had a chance to test Aura a lot against T8 raid mobs since we are raiding light due to holidays but I tanked MMIS last night to get some guildies their Epic updates and found out the Aura doesn’t work on some of the stuns/mezzes in there and I don’t mean just the incurable ones either. It seems to me that SOE either set Aura to not work against some raid mob abilities which is frankly cheap or they didn’t go back and put older abilities into the list of spells it works on making it near worthless in older zones. Also as a raiding pally I can tell you that I am very worried about these changes. Right now I have carved out a place for myself on raids because we are different enough from Guardians that it makes since for the raid to have a choice of which to use. What worries me is if they turn us into guardians light like seems to be the impression I get from the Dev comments then what point is there in including us on raids at all?

OrcSlayer96

12-29-2008, 08:00 PM

There is a easy explanation on why some control effects were not cured/protected from on aura of the crusader. Look at the AA currently and you will see 2 very important control effects it will not affect: Mezzes and Charms. It will help on cureable stifles,stuns, fears, roots and change target effects but has no chance on mezzes and charms. I can think of a few mobs in MMIS that love to cast charms and mezzes...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Marcusaval

12-31-2008, 07:32 AM

I have played Paladin since the beginning of EQII I hated it when we were nerfed and i spent all the KOS struggling to find a guild where i could raid in being told Crusader were not wanted.I am now OT in a good casual raiding guild but can see me loosing my job to a Zerker or SK if this talked about change to single tank role takes place.If they nerf amends and our multimob abilities then you might as well just use a Guardian which was the situation before ROK where most raiding guilds rolled with a Guard and Zerker or two Guards.Last expansion when SK's got nerfed most of them betrayed to Paladin.If I am nerfed to the exent that I loose my raiding slot to an SK or Zerker then I will quit the game.I wont betray and i am not an alt acholic so SOE will leave me no choice.

Zapat

12-31-2008, 03:38 PM

<cite>Marcusavalon wrote:</cite><blockquote>If I am nerfed to the exent that I loose my raiding slot to an SK or Zerker then I will quit the game.I wont betray and i am not an alt acholic so SOE will leave me no choice.</blockquote>yea im with u on this one bro, i play only one toon and don't have time to lvl up 30 others, and i chose EQ2 because of how fun their Paladin is... although our PvP'ing does suck! but if SOE is gonna give us Palys' the shaft then im walking!

Kalvarin

01-07-2009, 09:40 PM

<img src="http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/kdroman/Amends.jpg" />Well, they did something to Amends on Test, that's for [Removed for Content] sure..

Kiljoi

01-09-2009, 07:20 PM

<cite>Kalvarin wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/kdroman/Amends.jpg" />Well, they did something to Amends on Test, that's for [Removed for Content] sure..</blockquote>I'm disgusted with what Aerilik has done to us. Major game changer in just about the worst way.

win

01-20-2009, 10:56 PM

Totally agree kiljoi.