Guard agro on BETA [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Undorett

11-08-2008, 04:40 AM

A post was made about guardian agro on beta, and below is the response given.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fighter changes are a 2 step process. The first part is to get most of the achievement and skill changes out of the way which is the major part to most classes. Part 2 looks at the aggro management of the classes and starts the shirgt to a more threat oriented viewpoint and more emphasis on the tank themselves holding aggro rather than through other means. This is probably the more difficult part because hate transfers, hate gain, hate multipliers, etc all need to be looked at and adjusted appropriately. This part will happen once the expansion ships and once we have more to say about it a post will be made.</blockquote>So, basically our hate is not on par with other plate tanks and we need to suck it up till they figure out how to fix it...serious BS

Rahatmattata

11-08-2008, 05:11 AM

What's stupid is they act like this takes a long time to do and is a difficult thing to balance. How many 40 hour work weeks does it take? How bout you take an 8 hour day, nerf our dps but add threat to what you nerfed, send it to test for a week or 2, listen to feedback, tweak it... bam done.No, they act like this is a grueling 6 month task of monumental effort.They really just need to re-do threat IMO. Make it crit, make it scale to hate mod the same way dps mod scales dps, get rid of taunt resists and make aggression a stat instead of a stupid skill that effects whether the taunt lands or not, then make agression increase threat same way as strength increases damage. In dstance nerf our autoattack damage, nerf our CA damage, add threat from what was removed in dps to both; make the pure taunt CAs hit for a LOT of threat, but not +position just so there is a reason to use them. In ostance nerf our threat control; give us a flat 0 hate mod that can't be modified. No more tanking in ostance doing 6k dps, but we can still kill solo mobs in ostance.If they did this we could be doing 1k dps and 11k tps (threat per second) + transfers and holding aggro just fine and dandy off 15k dps classes. It would also give us new gear such as a ring with +5 threat crit and +3 hate mod (up to 200 like dps and haste).Balance accordingly. But of course the game is so stupidly coded they'd probably end up breaking crafting or run speed or something by making a change like this.

Kreagan De'Unerro

11-10-2008, 11:44 AM

This may take some time, I mean how long did it take them to fix the Melee-to-Hit rate? 6 months or so right?These devs are morons

Wilin

11-10-2008, 12:01 PM

Because it's not just a guardian change, it's a change forguardianberserkerbruisermonkskpallydirgetroubcoercerassassinswashyand anyone else that buffs/xfers hate/dehate.

motogp

11-10-2008, 01:12 PM

I been playing my 80 illusionist in Beta running instance zones. SK's are doing 8-10k dps and hold agro like crazy. I Phased the mob and the SK still had agro. So yeah, SK's rock. Guard's are in real trouble. If you were to Take all the plate tanks- Take off all there gear-Give them all the same shield and weapon, Guards will be the worst plate tank. they will have no chance. If dps isnt ment to be the best way to keep agro, then why did the SK keep agro like a super star while doing 8k dps? DPS= agro, nothing has changed. Guard's will not have SK like dps when the expac comes out. No dps = no agro. This is just a big mess waiting to happen.

Yimway

11-10-2008, 01:41 PM

<cite>motogpgp wrote:</cite><blockquote>I been playing my 80 illusionist in Beta running instance zones. SK's are doing 8-10k dps and hold agro like crazy. I Phased the mob and the SK still had agro. So yeah, SK's rock. Guard's are in real trouble. If you were to Take all the plate tanks- Take off all there gear-Give them all the same shield and weapon, Guards will be the worst plate tank. they will have no chance. If dps isnt ment to be the best way to keep agro, then why did the SK keep agro like a super star while doing 8k dps? DPS= agro, nothing has changed. Guard's will not have SK like dps when the expac comes out. No dps = no agro. This is just a big mess waiting to happen.</blockquote>This is why I rolled an SK 2 weeks ago.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

11-10-2008, 04:15 PM

<cite>motogpgp wrote:</cite><blockquote>I been playing my 80 illusionist in Beta running instance zones. SK's are doing 8-10k dps and hold agro like crazy. I Phased the mob and the SK still had agro. So yeah, SK's rock. Guard's are in real trouble. If you were to Take all the plate tanks- Take off all there gear-Give them all the same shield and weapon, Guards will be the worst plate tank. they will have no chance. If dps isnt ment to be the best way to keep agro, then why did the SK keep agro like a super star while doing 8k dps? DPS= agro, nothing has changed. Guard's will not have SK like dps when the expac comes out. No dps = no agro. This is just a big mess waiting to happen.</blockquote>So, how does a plate fighter do 8-10k dps? In my finest moments in this game, buffed to the teeth, I have done maybe half that. If there are SK's doing that kind of dps, even in beta, then it's not the guardians that need a dps nerf.

Kreagan De'Unerro

11-10-2008, 05:34 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>motogpgp wrote:</cite><blockquote>I been playing my 80 illusionist in Beta running instance zones. SK's are doing 8-10k dps and hold agro like crazy. I Phased the mob and the SK still had agro. So yeah, SK's rock. Guard's are in real trouble. If you were to Take all the plate tanks- Take off all there gear-Give them all the same shield and weapon, Guards will be the worst plate tank. they will have no chance. If dps isnt ment to be the best way to keep agro, then why did the SK keep agro like a super star while doing 8k dps? DPS= agro, nothing has changed. Guard's will not have SK like dps when the expac comes out. No dps = no agro. This is just a big mess waiting to happen.</blockquote>This is why I rolled an SK 2 weeks ago.</blockquote>So did I this past Friday night. He is now lvl50My best parse so far as a guard is 5800dps on KS trash, how is a SK hitting 8K in xpack already? ERRR!

Rahatmattata

11-10-2008, 09:17 PM

Probably aoe stuff.

Khurghan

11-10-2008, 10:34 PM

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, how does a plate fighter do 8-10k dps? In my finest moments in this game, buffed to the teeth, I have done maybe half that. If there are SK's doing that kind of dps, even in beta, then it's not the guardians that need a dps nerf.</blockquote>Non-guardian classes are already able to push out ~10k dps (on trash) in zones like Shard of Hate

Aeralik

11-11-2008, 03:08 AM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>A post was made about guardian agro on beta, and below is the response given.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fighter changes are a 2 step process. The first part is to get most of the achievement and skill changes out of the way which is the major part to most classes. Part 2 looks at the aggro management of the classes and starts the shirgt to a more threat oriented viewpoint and more emphasis on the tank themselves holding aggro rather than through other means. This is probably the more difficult part because hate transfers, hate gain, hate multipliers, etc all need to be looked at and adjusted appropriately. This part will happen once the expansion ships and once we have more to say about it a post will be made.</blockquote>So, basically our hate is not on par with other plate tanks and we need to suck it up till they figure out how to fix it...serious BS</blockquote>Where did I say that guardians are not on par with other tanks. You have some of the best hate tools in game with reinforcement, quick rescue, along with 2 hate position skill and a hate over time ability on your achievement tree. Combine those in a pickup group with a hate transfer, dirge or coercer and you should have all the tools at your disposal. We will continue to monitor things though and if the situation warrants I can tweak a few things to help out between updates.

Rahatmattata

11-11-2008, 04:30 AM

Thanks for the response. Will see how it plays out.

Khurghan

11-11-2008, 04:41 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Where did I say that guardians are not on par with other tanks. You have some of the best hate tools in game with reinforcement, quick rescue, along with 2 hate position skill and a hate over time ability on your achievement tree. Combine those in a pickup group with a hate transfer, dirge or coercer and you should have all the tools at your disposal. We will continue to monitor things though and if the situation warrants I can tweak a few things to help out between updates.</blockquote>Aeralik, people are talking about sustained hate not what people call emergency taunts (rescue, reinforcement etc.). The new hate-over-time ability seems to be ~200 hate a second, it does not remotely make up for the hate we have lost from loosing all that double attack from the stamina line.I struggle at the moment to hold aggro on raids from our assassins, with the numbers some classes (mostly assassins) are putting out, and I'm pushing **please don't nerf me**+ on yellow-con raid mobs (which is nothing compared to our assassins). With the boost assassins are getting in dps I see either a lot of dead assassins or a lot of assassin sit-outs either way its probably going to hurt assassins actually more than guardians.

Vulkan_NTooki

11-11-2008, 05:30 AM

<cite>Khurghan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Where did I say that guardians are not on par with other tanks. You have some of the best hate tools in game with reinforcement, quick rescue, along with 2 hate position skill and a hate over time ability on your achievement tree. Combine those in a pickup group with a hate transfer, dirge or coercer and you should have all the tools at your disposal. We will continue to monitor things though and if the situation warrants I can tweak a few things to help out between updates.</blockquote>Aeralik, people are talking about sustained hate not what people call emergency taunts (rescue, reinforcement etc.). The new hate-over-time ability seems to be ~200 hate a second, it does not remotely make up for the hate we have lost from loosing all that double attack from the stamina line.I struggle at the moment to hold aggro on raids from our assassins, with the numbers some classes (mostly assassins) are putting out, and I'm pushing **please don't nerf me**+ on yellow-con raid mobs (which is nothing compared to our assassins). With the boost assassins are getting in dps I see either a lot of dead assassins or a lot of assassin sit-outs either way its probably going to hurt assassins actually more than guardians.</blockquote>Isnt that a good thing? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" />I say reduce aggro management tools.. let the squishies die if they cant behave.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Khurghan

11-11-2008, 06:02 AM

<cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Isnt that a good thing? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" />I say reduce aggro management tools.. let the squishies die if they cant behave.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Not really. We will just sit our assassins for a class that will still hit the same dps numbers but adds more utility to our raid (you will want to keep one predator in the raid but a ranger can fill that spot)

salle

11-11-2008, 06:27 AM

Ok some statistics and numbers to show why the warrior AA changes are only negative for a raidtank.Total Hate Per Second from taunts from my current specc (+610 combat art damage)Impede 237 HPSInfraction 213 HPSGuard 75 HPS (per target) Slanderous Assault 44 HPS (per target)This stacks up to 569 HPS for a single target. So 25% bonus taunts is gonna give us 142 HPS for single targets. (Assuming the hate% mod cap is still at 50% positive hate this will be maxed out during a raid)Now looking at last nights VP parse where I MTed I did on avarage 1950 Auto attack DPS on trash, and avarage DA of 90.5%. So taking away 35% DA would thus lover my DPS with about 380. So that's going to be 240 hate per second lost.Then we lose 8 to 10% uncontested avoidance with the mythical with the change of the stamina line. (10% if you see to the avarage added block from a tower over a buckler, 8 if you see the extra 8% parry from using stamina line over any other AA line) Changed Warrior AA tree or guardian mythical isn't boosting uncontested avoidance any. So this is a total loss of atleast 8% uncontested avoidance.So less hate per second, less avoidance is what the changes to our old KoS AAs mean. I do like the new AAs don't get me wrong but they're not ahead of everyone elses to whipe away the feeling of guardians beeing nerfed when already the content change from single to multi target encounters should be enough to let the SKs and Zerkers shine again.

YummiOger

11-11-2008, 10:16 AM

Aggro Generation REALLY has me worried....How can i hold Hate Vs our 10K Assasin's with me doing 2k DPS?? Snap aggro tools? YAY! i got aggro for 3-5 seconds then back to the DPS. Idont care how much hate modifiers you have in guild/raid. 7-10K sustained DPS > Snap positionals + half resisted Taunts (which are usually SMALLER then a Auto Attack swing BTW) all day long.Aggro has me worried ... The Reduction in DPS is going to be really bad....

Grumpy_Warrior_01

11-11-2008, 10:44 AM

Fear not, Ahdam. Go back and re-read the developer quote on page 1. As long as we are in a pick-up group, and as long as that pick-up group contains two specific forms of hate assistance, we are golden.<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Undorett

11-11-2008, 10:57 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>A post was made about guardian agro on beta, and below is the response given.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fighter changes are a 2 step process. The first part is to get most of the achievement and skill changes out of the way which is the major part to most classes. Part 2 looks at the aggro management of the classes and starts the shirgt to a more threat oriented viewpoint and more emphasis on the tank themselves holding aggro rather than through other means. This is probably the more difficult part because hate transfers, hate gain, hate multipliers, etc all need to be looked at and adjusted appropriately. This part will happen once the expansion ships and once we have more to say about it a post will be made.</blockquote>So, basically our hate is not on par with other plate tanks and we need to suck it up till they figure out how to fix it...serious BS</blockquote>Where did I say that guardians are not on par with other tanks. You have some of the best hate tools in game with reinforcement, quick rescue, along with 2 hate position skill and a hate over time ability on your achievement tree. Combine those in a pickup group with a hate transfer, dirge or coercer and you should have all the tools at your disposal. We will continue to monitor things though and if the situation warrants I can tweak a few things to help out between updates.</blockquote>Seriously Aeralik...Why should our single target threat generation be on par with everyone else, it should be far more because our AOE threat is a JOKE by comparison to the SK, Zerker and even the other single target tank Pallys with their overpowered amends button. So why on earth should our single target hate not be that much more than theirs?You bring up snap agro, the thing guardians used to be good at...yet you have given all fighters more snap agro tools this expansion. A mythicaled zerker now has more snaps than a guard.

Bremer

11-11-2008, 12:07 PM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>A mythicaled zerker now has more snaps than a guard. </blockquote>If you count spells that bring you guaranteed on top of the hate list Guardian has Reinforcement on 90 sec timer and and the Warrior spell with self jester cap on ~200 sec timer, Beserker has the Warrior spell with ~235 timer. When I count my fingers now this makes 2 fingers for Guardians, 1 for Beserkers. If I remember math correctly 2 > 1. Not included that Guardians has the spells on shorter timer, otherwise it would be 2.5 fingers vs 0.75 fingers (ouch).Of course you could extend the list to all positionoal spells. Than it would include Rescue (a lot shorter timer for Guardian), Insolence (very situational and on longer timer then Reinforcement and gives less hate positions) and the new Beserker spell (as open AE again only situational).So even if Beserkers have one position spell more, Guardian spells are worth more positions, have no situational limitations and are on shorter timer. So what's your point?

Undorett

11-11-2008, 12:53 PM

I made my point in the first paragraph, the second was to point out that snaps do not equate to maintained threat.

Airbornee

11-11-2008, 01:54 PM

Guards are actually in pretty good shape on beta... I'd say hold the whining until TSO goes live and you start raid tanking then.

Xalmat

11-11-2008, 04:36 PM

<cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Isnt that a good thing? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" />I say reduce aggro management tools.. let the squishies die if they cant behave.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>QFE.On the other hand, it seems that SKs and Paladins will continue to have the best hate gain of all tanks post-TSO. Zerker is struggling hard on single target, and a non-mythical Zerker cannot handle an AoE fest nearly as well as a mythical'd Zerker. And where does that leave Guardians? The best snap aggro, the worst sustained aggro.

Kreagan De'Unerro

11-11-2008, 04:53 PM

<cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Isnt that a good thing? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" />I say reduce aggro management tools.. let the squishies die if they cant behave.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I really do not think having your dps hold back so you can maintain agro is the answer here. Your dps players rolled a dps class to be doing some insane damage. Not to hold back because your class is broken in some way.I say what Aerilik, whatever that guys/girls name is who is in charge of class balancing needs to think about dumping all the snap agro BS and change it to some sort of consistant hate generator.<ul><li>Enhance Impede - Increases the threat of Impede by 5% per Rank</li><li>Enhance Guard - Increases the threat of target encounter by 5% per Rank every 3 seconds for 15 seconds</li><li>Guardian's Clout - All Combat Arts add 5%(per Rank) of it's damage into Threat.</li></ul>It is ok for ya to remove our DPS, but please make it up in threat somehow. Having to rely on certain classes to even do instances with will hurt the overall gameplay expierence of many old and future subscribers. If a guard can not go into and instance and keep their group alive without a dirge,coercer,etc...Why even play the class outside of raiding? I have a couple pocket dirges and chanters, but not the average Joe.Asking/telling your assasin to sit is ridonkulous, assasins have great raid utility in TSO, they debuff Crit Mit, Crit Chance of mobs.

Xalmat

11-11-2008, 04:55 PM

In EQ1, it was a well known fact that pulling aggro would mean a swift death.I don't see why EQ2 should be any different in that regard.Here's a suggestion: If someone pulls aggro off of you on raids, then promptly dies, have your rezzers leave them dead until the mob is dead. If they pull aggro again, don't rez them at all and make them revive and run back. Sooner or later they'll learn not to pull aggro.

Kreagan De'Unerro

11-11-2008, 07:22 PM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>In EQ1, it was a well known fact that pulling aggro would mean a swift death.I don't see why EQ2 should be any different in that regard.Here's a suggestion: If someone pulls aggro off of you on raids, then promptly dies, have your rezzers leave them dead until the mob is dead. If they pull aggro again, don't rez them at all and make them revive and run back. Sooner or later they'll learn not to pull aggro.</blockquote>If someone is use to parsing 8-14k on a raid, and you ask them hold back closer to 5k because you can not maintain the agro this is bad.Mostly because this will extend the fights by quite a few minutes, and because those folks did not sign up for playing highend content but have to play more carebearish.So what we are talking about is, no more 100k-175k raidwide DPS anymore? more like 50-65k RW dps? is this really going to be acceptable?This also translates into instance running too.I enjoy watching my DPS guildmates die, but only because they beat me at the hate generation legitamitly, not because I did not have the tools to maintain it.

Rahatmattata

11-11-2008, 07:26 PM

You fail to understand a serious raid guild is not going to let some suck tank that can't hold aggro be the tank. Why would you have player A that can't hold hate off his grandma's templar tanking and telling the raid to hold back when you could instead put player B in there that holds aggro like a champ and the raid can go nuts? Or even group instances, why take a guardian to do group instances in TSO unless that's all you can get?If this is how it's going to be; low sustained aggro, good snap aggro; then we need a lot more abilities like sentry watch and sentiniel sphere to keep people alive until our snaps refresh. Even then, the mobs will probably be ripping to the OT, so why not just put the OT in the MT group?Anyway, I'm not in beta and will have to see for myself how this plays out when it goes live. I understand the game update is officially seperate from the expansion, but I'm not paying 40 bucks to test the game update in the new expansion. It better be done right when the game update goes live.

Kreagan De'Unerro

11-11-2008, 08:37 PM

Exactly

code

11-12-2008, 04:07 AM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>In EQ1, it was a well known fact that pulling aggro would mean a swift death.I don't see why EQ2 should be any different in that regard.Here's a suggestion: If someone pulls aggro off of you on raids, then promptly dies, have your rezzers leave them dead until the mob is dead. If they pull aggro again, don't rez them at all and make them revive and run back. Sooner or later they'll learn not to pull aggro.</blockquote>This logic fails. F-

Rahatmattata

11-12-2008, 05:02 AM

So, now with all the aoe content and other plate tanks pulling 8k dps, would it really be game breaking to give warriors the 60% double attack back? The comment about fixing "stage 2" after the expansion goes live says you really haven't figured this all out and our swinging the ole nerf bat just for the sake of it. I suggest you leave the double attack alone until you can get it figured out.Don't nerf and then fix 6 months later. Nerf once you have the fix ready to be implemented. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" />

salle

11-12-2008, 12:09 PM

Well.. I'm not sure if the Auto attack affecting multiple targets stacks with DA but I imagine it does so having a zerker with 60 DA might have been a bit too over powered.

victer

11-12-2008, 01:56 PM

<cite>salle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well.. I'm not sure if the Auto attack affecting multiple targets stacks with DA but I imagine it does so having a zerker with 60 DA might have been a bit too over powered.</blockquote>AE auto attack does not stack with double attack. My god i wish it did lol.You double attack your target and normal attack the 3 others in front of you

Bruener

11-12-2008, 04:17 PM

Wow, imagine that. SOE is finally balancing. Whys should the tank with the best Survivability and the best positional hate...have just as good agro management as the other tanks. There has to be a trade-off. Raids SHOULD want to use the other tanks on trash and easy mobs to kill faster, and still use the Guard as THE MT for those mobs that are the toughest in the game. Guards have the best survivability, the best positional hate tools, and now with the changes to the Mythical they are going to have a proc like no other tank unless they have avatar loot...IMMUNE to control effects. Which not to mention on group mobs will be up almost constantly.Stop trying to get more than what you should have. Now there are other reasons to use other tanks. If you are a good Guard, there is nothing to worry about. Its just all the mediocres that have been riding the coat-tails of an OP'd class that are going to be out of a job.

YummiOger

11-12-2008, 04:55 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow, imagine that. SOE is finally balancing. Whys should the tank with the best Survivability and the best positional hate...have just as good agro management as the other tanks. There has to be a trade-off. Raids SHOULD want to use the other tanks on trash and easy mobs to kill faster, and still use the Guard as THE MT for those mobs that are the toughest in the game. Guards have the best survivability, the best positional hate tools, and now with the changes to the Mythical they are going to have a proc like no other tank unless they have avatar loot...IMMUNE to control effects. Which not to mention on group mobs will be up almost constantly.Stop trying to get more than what you should have. Now there are other reasons to use other tanks. If you are a good Guard, there is nothing to worry about. Its just all the mediocres that have been riding the coat-tails of an OP'd class that are going to be out of a job.</blockquote>Now Bruener, i dont remember u being so angry last time i was in Zerk forums<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />.As for the Effect. it is only 18s out of 60s = 30% of the time. How often is the AE attack and +15% Double attack up on Zerk Myth? 100%?Anyways, Yes i do agree our Self Generated hate should not be as much as other tanks. But as far as i know, Zerks DO do more Self DPS aggro and so can pallies w/ Amends. So Guards are not the top Hate Gain.This thread is more about the Nerfs to the Guard Mythicals not being on par with the other Mythicals. NOT about base class design. Let me ask you this .. Would u Trade the 100% AE attack for the Control Proc? .. I will.. would You? How about the Control Proc for the 25% of all damage intake into Hate? Trade that?

Yimway

11-12-2008, 05:11 PM

<cite>Khurghan wrote:</cite><blockquote>I struggle at the moment to hold aggro on raids from our assassins, with the numbers some classes (mostly assassins) are putting out, and I'm pushing **please don't nerf me**+ on yellow-con raid mobs (which is nothing compared to our assassins). With the boost assassins are getting in dps I see either a lot of dead assassins or a lot of assassin sit-outs either way its probably going to hurt assassins actually more than guardians.</blockquote>LOL, nice try.What we're going to do is stop using guardian MT's cause thats what the dev's clearly want with the changes they've done.We're all switching to pally/sk MT/OT and benching warriors in general. Simply put they have better sustained aggro in the expansion, and with the snap aggro add-on's via their aa trees, there is no reason to bring a guard on a raid anymore.

Yimway

11-12-2008, 06:19 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Where did I say that guardians are not on par with other tanks. You have some of the best hate tools in game with reinforcement, quick rescue, along with 2 hate position skill and a hate over time ability on your achievement tree. Combine those in a pickup group with a hate transfer, dirge or coercer and you should have all the tools at your disposal. We will continue to monitor things though and if the situation warrants I can tweak a few things to help out between updates.</blockquote>Btw, thanks for the post. You established what I thought I already knew. You don't really understand the issue, and will not take the time to investigate the impact of your changes to raid play.I needed some help making the decision to either cancel my 6 accounts or purchace the expansion. You did a nice job of helping me make up my mind.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

11-12-2008, 07:29 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stop trying to get more than what you should have. Now there are other reasons to use other tanks. If you are a good Guard, there is nothing to worry about. Its just all the mediocres that have been riding the coat-tails of an OP'd class that are going to be out of a job.</blockquote>With a new pile of mediocre SK's and berserkers standing in line to take their jobs. Nice.

Bruener

11-12-2008, 10:40 PM

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stop trying to get more than what you should have. Now there are other reasons to use other tanks. If you are a good Guard, there is nothing to worry about. Its just all the mediocres that have been riding the coat-tails of an OP'd class that are going to be out of a job.</blockquote>With a new pile of mediocre SK's and berserkers standing in line to take their jobs. Nice.</blockquote>Yes, a bunch of mediocre SKs and Bezerkers standing in line only to be rejected when they aren't doing the job. With TSO tank balance is better than it ever has been. Guards had a huge head on all the other tanks in RoK...now things are leveling back out. Stop trying to make it so that things are out of whack again.

Prrasha

11-13-2008, 12:20 PM

<cite>Ahdam@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mythical they are going to have a proc like no other tank unless they have avatar loot...IMMUNE to control effects. Which not to mention on group mobs will be up almost constantly.</blockquote>As for the Effect. it is only 18s out of 60s = 30% of the time.</blockquote>...assuming zero haste and no use of combat arts. 100 haste and spammed CA's with no casting or recovery speed modifiers get that up to ~90% of the time, right? Weapon procs proc more if you swing more.

Yimway

11-13-2008, 12:53 PM

Outside of tanking avatars? How often have control effects mattered?I would much prefer a clicky effect that roots caster, makes them immune to knockback, and has some mit or aggro increase while rooted. I'm really tired of tanking in corners <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Terron

11-13-2008, 01:10 PM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is ok for ya to remove our DPS, but please make it up in threat somehow.</blockquote>Hold on. That is OK for tanking, but some of use do solo with our guards and our DPS then is barely adequate as it is. Threat generation is completely useless solo. If our DPS is reduced something else would be needed to boost our solo ability.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

11-13-2008, 01:31 PM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is ok for ya to remove our DPS, but please make it up in threat somehow.</blockquote>Hold on. That is OK for tanking, but some of use do solo with our guards and our DPS then is barely adequate as it is. Threat generation is completely useless solo. If our DPS is reduced something else would be needed to boost our solo ability.</blockquote>Finally, somebody that gets why asking to take away our DPS and replace it with threat is foolish. If we turn into nothing but taunt dispensers then we are useless in any other role, and you will never be able to justify having more than one of us in a group. The inability to solo is only part of the problem being created.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

11-13-2008, 01:34 PM

<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ahdam@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mythical they are going to have a proc like no other tank unless they have avatar loot...IMMUNE to control effects. Which not to mention on group mobs will be up almost constantly.</blockquote>As for the Effect. it is only 18s out of 60s = 30% of the time.</blockquote>...assuming zero haste and no use of combat arts. 100 haste and spammed CA's with no casting or recovery speed modifiers get that up to ~90% of the time, right? Weapon procs proc more if you swing more.</blockquote>If you look at the description for weapon procs, you'll see they go off an average of 1.8 times per minute or whatever -- it's a fallacy to say that haste affects proc rate. Although you do improve melee damage as melee haste increases.Edit: looking at the eq2flames board about this subject, one poster says that increasing the number of successful attacks increases the chance that a proc will fire, and so this is somewhat accurate, assuming that poster's info is correct. So weapons don't proc more if you swing more, only if you connect more which could mean an increase in accuracy rather than melee haste.

Bruener

11-13-2008, 05:51 PM

Also, the more mobs that the auto attack hit increases the amount the proc goes off. So, with AE auto attack on group mobs you are looking at having this proc up a majority of the time.

Soul_Dreamer

11-13-2008, 09:37 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Where did I say that guardians are not on par with other tanks. You have some of the best hate tools in game with reinforcement, quick rescue, along with 2 hate position skill and a hate over time ability on your achievement tree. Combine those in a pickup group with a hate transfer, dirge or coercer and you should have all the tools at your disposal. We will continue to monitor things though and if the situation warrants I can tweak a few things to help out between updates.</blockquote>Btw, thanks for the post. You established what I thought I already knew. You don't really understand the issue, and will not take the time to investigate the impact of your changes to raid play.I needed some help making the decision to either cancel my 6 accounts or purchace the expansion. You did a nice job of helping me make up my mind.</blockquote>Aeralik, you really need to listen more, Guards aren't on par for single target hate, your refusing to listen to all the experienced raid tanks telling you they are having difficulty compared to Zerks and SK's in holding single target agro and letting the Guardian class go live in TSO broken. Ohh and BTW, you said it here.... "once we are done the single target guys will be a bit better at their job." You're saying...We aren't where we should be = We aren't yet balanced with other tanks = we aren't on par with other tanks. I'm not even putting words into your mouth, you have stated that we will be able to perform our roles better when your finished, hence, Guardians are currently broken.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>AOE Tank means you can handle the aoe encounters slightly better than the other tanks. Single target tank generally means better single target aggro and slightly more defensive. This doesnt meant that a berserker or sk are your only options to aoe encounters. You can still throw in a really good guardian if you want but the aoe tank toolset is slightly better. Same goes for the single target the aoe tanks can still be used but once we are done the single target guys will be a bit better at their job.I also realize that Amends + warlock/swash is better than what an sk or berserker can do right now. Thats largely what part 2 is meant to address where we make adjustments to some of these systems to make tanks more responsible for their aggro and less on other classes to provide it for them.</blockquote>Snap agro tools are all well and good but when they run out we're left with nothing to do but let the people who peeled die.When you compare Mythical weapons as well Berzerker and SK have agro abilities on them, in the case of the Berzerker it's a very large agro help, where is the Guardian ability on the Mythical to help with holding the agro of a fully Mythicald raid force? put it this way, if I find a weapon with close delay and spread but with an ability to increase my agro by a decent amount my Mythical weapon is going into my bags for all but a few fights where I need help with control effects. I really DO NOT THINK this should be the case for the "Ultimate weapon" for each class do you?Lastly, what about the near ZERO gap in Berzerker and Guardian survivability? How has this come about when they have so much over us in DPS/Utility/AOE Agro. You need to state clearly what is happening with the Guardians in TSO and in Stage 2 of the fighter balance. I currently know of 3 raiding MT Guardians who I know personally who won't be buying the expansion and are quitting the game due to these changes. You have changed fighters to much to give us small replies sparcely accross the forums, we all deserve to know where the classes are heading and what changes to expect in the near future.

salle

11-14-2008, 04:13 AM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is ok for ya to remove our DPS, but please make it up in threat somehow.</blockquote>Hold on. That is OK for tanking, but some of use do solo with our guards and our DPS then is barely adequate as it is. Threat generation is completely useless solo. If our DPS is reduced something else would be needed to boost our solo ability.</blockquote>What's the problem with soloing? You just dual wield in Agi spec with one sword giving you power other giving you HP. Case closed move on nothing to see here...

salle

11-14-2008, 04:18 AM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Where did I say that guardians are not on par with other tanks. You have some of the best hate tools in game with reinforcement, quick rescue, along with 2 hate position skill and a hate over time ability on your achievement tree. Combine those in a pickup group with a hate transfer, dirge or coercer and you should have all the tools at your disposal. We will continue to monitor things though and if the situation warrants I can tweak a few things to help out between updates.</blockquote>Btw, thanks for the post. You established what I thought I already knew. You don't really understand the issue, and will not take the time to investigate the impact of your changes to raid play.I needed some help making the decision to either cancel my 6 accounts or purchace the expansion. You did a nice job of helping me make up my mind.</blockquote>Aeralik, you really need to listen more, Guards aren't on par for single target hate, your refusing to listen to all the experienced raid tanks telling you they are having difficulty compared to Zerks and SK's in holding single target agro and letting the Guardian class go live in TSO broken. Ohh and BTW, you said it here.... "once we are done the single target guys will be a bit better at their job." You're saying...We aren't where we should be = We aren't yet balanced with other tanks = we aren't on par with other tanks. I'm not even putting words into your mouth, you have stated that we will be able to perform our roles better when your finished, hence, Guardians are currently broken.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>AOE Tank means you can handle the aoe encounters slightly better than the other tanks. Single target tank generally means better single target aggro and slightly more defensive. This doesnt meant that a berserker or sk are your only options to aoe encounters. You can still throw in a really good guardian if you want but the aoe tank toolset is slightly better. Same goes for the single target the aoe tanks can still be used but once we are done the single target guys will be a bit better at their job.I also realize that Amends + warlock/swash is better than what an sk or berserker can do right now. Thats largely what part 2 is meant to address where we make adjustments to some of these systems to make tanks more responsible for their aggro and less on other classes to provide it for them.</blockquote>Snap agro tools are all well and good but when they run out we're left with nothing to do but let the people who peeled die.When you compare Mythical weapons as well Berzerker and SK have agro abilities on them, in the case of the Berzerker it's a very large agro help, where is the Guardian ability on the Mythical to help with holding the agro of a fully Mythicald raid force? put it this way, if I find a weapon with close delay and spread but with an ability to increase my agro by a decent amount my Mythical weapon is going into my bags for all but a few fights where I need help with control effects. I really DO NOT THINK this should be the case for the "Ultimate weapon" for each class do you?Lastly, what about the near ZERO gap in Berzerker and Guardian survivability? How has this come about when they have so much over us in DPS/Utility/AOE Agro. You need to state clearly what is happening with the Guardians in TSO and in Stage 2 of the fighter balance. I currently know of 3 raiding MT Guardians who I know personally who won't be buying the expansion and are quitting the game due to these changes. You have changed fighters to much to give us small replies sparcely accross the forums, we all deserve to know where the classes are heading and what changes to expect in the near future.</blockquote>QFEIt's not a no brainer really. Good communication is what really is needed at this point, tell us with alot of details, numbers and graphs why we (not as guardians but as eq2 players) need this change, where you want to end up and how you plan to do it.

Gisallo

11-14-2008, 05:06 AM

<cite>salle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well.. I'm not sure if the Auto attack affecting multiple targets stacks with DA but I imagine it does so having a zerker with 60 DA might have been a bit too over powered.</blockquote>OMG you're joking right, or at least talking post TSO. If you are talking Pre-TSO please tell me how many raid guilds you saw with Zerkers MTing.

Gisallo

11-14-2008, 05:09 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>LOL, nice try.What we're going to do is stop using guardian MT's cause thats what the dev's clearly want with the changes they've done.We're all switching to pally/sk MT/OT and benching warriors in general. Simply put they have better sustained aggro in the expansion, and with the snap aggro add-on's via their aa trees, there is no reason to bring a guard on a raid anymore.</blockquote>You all do know that Amends is being changed, and not for the better right?

Gisallo

11-14-2008, 05:16 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, a bunch of mediocre SKs and Bezerkers standing in line only to be rejected when they aren't doing the job. With TSO tank balance is better than it ever has been. Guards had a huge head on all the other tanks in RoK...now things are leveling back out. Stop trying to make it so that things are out of whack again.</blockquote>Thats basically what it comes down too. In terms of base class design, the tanks are all going to be much more balanced than they have been. DA has been nerfed BUT it looks like there are aggro abilities that will make up for what we lost. Now I can see why the Guards might be miffed. They had the use of Stam with their Mythical, now Zerks will have it and some of Stam got a nerf. The control toggle is good or bad all depending on your point of view. As for the SK with his allegedly high parse, we have no clue what his gear, group make up and nature of the fight was so NO use is saying anything about that.In the end though this game has to be about class design first. Only maybe 1% of the players in this game will ever see their mythical (unless they buy them) and they are the bulk of the subscribers so SOE is going to take care of that first. After that they will then look at the mythicals but I have noticed something. EVERY CLASS complains about their mirror having something they want on the mythical. That suddenly makes it OP regardless of what theirs had. Zerks screamed about the Tower shield with the buckler line. Some guards complained about the AoE damage. Rangers complain about...well [Removed for Content] near everything on the Assassin (especially since flurry will apply to more targets come TSO) and Assassins...ummm sorry they don't complain about a dang thing...my mistake <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Davngr1

11-14-2008, 08:30 AM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>In EQ1, it was a well known fact that pulling aggro would mean a swift death.I don't see why EQ2 should be any different in that regard.Here's a suggestion: If someone pulls aggro off of you on raids, then promptly dies, have your rezzers leave them dead until the mob is dead. If they pull aggro again, don't rez them at all and make them revive and run back. Sooner or later they'll learn not to pull aggro.</blockquote>that's no fun, when i tank i tell people to go all out and if they die because i lost agro that's my fault not theirs, even on my SK(now 73 :p).

Davngr1

11-14-2008, 08:51 AM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, a bunch of mediocre SKs and Bezerkers standing in line only to be rejected when they aren't doing the job. With TSO tank balance is better than it ever has been. Guards had a huge head on all the other tanks in RoK...now things are leveling back out. Stop trying to make it so that things are out of whack again.</blockquote>Thats basically what it comes down too. In terms of base class design, the tanks are all going to be much more balanced than they have been. DA has been nerfed BUT it looks like there are aggro abilities that will make up for what we lost. Now I can see why the Guards might be miffed. They had the use of Stam with their Mythical, now Zerks will have it and some of Stam got a nerf. The control toggle is good or bad all depending on your point of view. As for the SK with his allegedly high parse, we have no clue what his gear, group make up and nature of the fight was so NO use is saying anything about that.In the end though this game has to be about class design first. Only maybe 1% of the players in this game will ever see their mythical (unless they buy them) and they are the bulk of the subscribers so SOE is going to take care of that first. After that they will then look at the mythicals but I have noticed something. EVERY CLASS complains about their mirror having something they want on the mythical. That suddenly makes it OP regardless of what theirs had. Zerks screamed about the Tower shield with the buckler line. Some guards complained about the AoE damage. Rangers complain about...well [Removed for Content] near everything on the Assassin (especially since flurry will apply to more targets come TSO) and Assassins...ummm sorry they don't complain about a dang thing...my mistake <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>actualy guards are suppose to be the best single target tank and RoK are full of single target encoutners(think that's the head your talking about?). thus the AE encouters in TSO alone will give AE tanks an advantage and guards a disadvantege. now ontop of that give all the other tank good hate procs and guards are screwd. PS. your wrong about the assassin flurry it wont proc on aoe attacks it's strickly auto-attack.

Terron

11-14-2008, 10:54 AM

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you look at the description for weapon procs, you'll see they go off an average of 1.8 times per minute or whatever -- it's a fallacy to say that haste affects proc rate. Although you do improve melee damage as melee haste increases.</blockquote>I think you are wrong. The proc rate is adjusted for the base weapon speed, but not for haste.

YummiOger

11-14-2008, 11:44 AM

<div>Haste has affected proc chance since the last proc rate overhaul. The number you see (e.g. 1.8/min) is compared to the delay of the weapon (3s) and the game generates a % chance per swing. Increasing the speed at which you swing will increase the rate at which the weapon procs.'Can only be modifed by direct means' is confusing wording that basically means the proc rate cannot be increased by buffs that directly increase proc rate (blessings, luck of the dirge, etc.). However since the proc ultimately boils down to the game rolling a dice on a fixed ~9% chance every successful attack (it calculates 20 attacks / minute with 3s delay and then works out what % 1.8 is of 20), increasing the number of successful attacks will increase the number of procs. The exception is double attacks which are ignored for procs, and in this case combat arts too since it's 'on a successful melee attack' rather than 'on a successful attack'.</div><div>-Vaux, EQ2Flames</div>

Yimway

11-14-2008, 12:04 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>LOL, nice try.What we're going to do is stop using guardian MT's cause thats what the dev's clearly want with the changes they've done.We're all switching to pally/sk MT/OT and benching warriors in general. Simply put they have better sustained aggro in the expansion, and with the snap aggro add-on's via their aa trees, there is no reason to bring a guard on a raid anymore.</blockquote>You all do know that Amends is being changed, and not for the better right? </blockquote>Yes, we've already handed over MT duty to an SK. I was going to switch to my coercer full time and sell my guard on the bazaar. But after thinking on it more, and some persausive comments from Aeralik, I'm just leaving the game instead.

Yimway

11-14-2008, 12:11 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>You need to state clearly what is happening with the Guardians in TSO and in Stage 2 of the fighter balance. I currently know of 3 raiding MT Guardians who I know personally who won't be buying the expansion and are quitting the game due to these changes. You have changed fighters to much to give us small replies sparcely accross the forums, we all deserve to know where the classes are heading and what changes to expect in the near future.</blockquote>The reason there is no clear statement is, they've not even figured it out yet. They really don't have a defined path to how they're going to ballance things, much less a big picture on how it will all come together. They have 0 hope of having it complete for release.Aeralik, packaging an expansion and a combat revamp into the same update is about the dumbest thing you guys have done to date. One should come before the other for many reasons, but some are: customer buy-in, development time and testing, expansion sales, job security, change management.*IF* your team has a general plan for how fighters are supposed to look, you've failed at communicating it, and if you can't communicate it, you're not getting buy-in from your customers. What you demonstrate is all we can judge it off, and that looks haphazard, random, and lacking fore-thought.

Kreagan De'Unerro

11-14-2008, 12:47 PM

Think this is bad wait till you see our fable set.They removed Reinforcement from the set bonuses. Every other class has a few added focus effects we get 1?They are hammering us guards so hard it is rediculous.Aerilik and this dev team are a bunch of morons.Whoever guild Aerilik is in, boot his butt to the curb. Ohh wait they can't, he's prob giving them leet strats for the next raid encounters in the next xpack.

Khurghan

11-14-2008, 03:12 PM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Think this is bad wait till you see our fable set.They removed Reinforcement from the set bonuses. Every other class has a few added focus effects we get 1?</blockquote>Fabled set looks pretty rough in terms of being an upgrade to the vp set<a href="http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guardraidiz2.jpg" target="_blank">http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?...uardraidiz2.jpg</a>Looks even worse in terms of (raw) stats if you compare to the pvpset<a href="http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guardpvpux3.jpg" target="_blank">http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?...guardpvpux3.jpg</a>

Gisallo

11-14-2008, 04:53 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>actualy guards are suppose to be the best single target tank and RoK are full of single target encoutners(think that's the head your talking about?). thus the AE encouters in TSO alone will give AE tanks an advantage and guards a disadvantege. now ontop of that give all the other tank good hate procs and guards are screwd. PS. your wrong about the assassin flurry it wont proc on aoe attacks it's strickly auto-attack.</blockquote>Yes but I think ALL scouts are now getting an AA thats (% chance for auto attacks to proc against multiple opponents) kinda thing in the AA tree o.O

Salarionn

12-19-2008, 07:28 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>A post was made about guardian agro on beta, and below is the response given.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fighter changes are a 2 step process. The first part is to get most of the achievement and skill changes out of the way which is the major part to most classes. Part 2 looks at the aggro management of the classes and starts the shirgt to a more threat oriented viewpoint and more emphasis on the tank themselves holding aggro rather than through other means. This is probably the more difficult part because hate transfers, hate gain, hate multipliers, etc all need to be looked at and adjusted appropriately. This part will happen once the expansion ships and once we have more to say about it a post will be made.</blockquote>So, basically our hate is not on par with other plate tanks and we need to suck it up till they figure out how to fix it...serious BS</blockquote>Where did I say that guardians are not on par with other tanks. You have some of the best hate tools in game with reinforcement, quick rescue, along with 2 hate position skill and a hate over time ability on your achievement tree. Combine those in a pickup group with a hate transfer, dirge or coercer and you should have all the tools at your disposal. We will continue to monitor things though and if the situation warrants I can tweak a few things to help out between updates.</blockquote> SO basically your saying we will HAVE to use the snap agro tools ( of which only reinforcement/rescue is reliable) and bring along a dirge and xfer to do our jobs? Wait then i read other posts from you where you clearly say you want to limit the need for others to help us keep agro /CONFUSED!!!!! I think you making us have to use what has always been our OHH CRAP tools (that you gave to most other tanks in one form or another btw) is rediculous. You give SK's and Pally's massive auto attack damage because of the spread/delay on thier mythicals and ours sucks. You lower casting times on thier spells. You can take any of the other tanks to an instance and they dont need a dirge or xfer because guess what, THEY CAN DPS. You have said HPS is what tanks should be thinking of when the games agro generator certainly seems to be the same as it always has been to me. You DPS you have agro!! You dont your screwed! Why is it every other fighter is owning us on parses if it isnt about DPS anymore? Why did you boost every other fighter classes DPS, if its not about DPS? You can say you didnt, but unfortunately the parse says you in fact did just that. Not on AOE encounters only. They rip us a new one on single target mobs as well.You going to lower the snap tools your so fond of telling us we have to less then 2 minutes so we can actually get through an instance in less then an hour? You going to actually make them work? I dont understand how you can sit and say snap tool this and snap tool that and think thats a viable way to make us do our jobs. Snap tools shouldnt be must use, they should be what they are for every other tank in the game. You have hate, things are going smooth, you lose agro and you SNAP it back to you. I dont know about other Guardians, but i really dont think having to use a SNAP AGRO tool is better then being able to just hold agro like every other tank by other means. I dont care if you give us DPS, but SNAP agro arguement is pretty silly sir. Guards are gimped atm. I dont understand how you can listen to every Guard who isnt Avatar geared tell you we have serious issues, yet you sit and say we are perfectly fine.

Salarionn

12-19-2008, 08:53 PM

I know you will just continue you ignore us or pretend that what you did was right, but its not.

Ep

12-22-2008, 04:16 AM

Beta has long since been over lol, but the trend of not listening to guardian inputs still exist.

Salarionn

12-22-2008, 07:28 AM

<cite>Auron@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Beta has long since been over lol, but the trend of not listening to guardian inputs still exist.</blockquote> The point of the post in this thread was pretty simple to follow, i thought anyway. The same crap that was bad in beta is still bad now. They didnt do anything to fix it so i posted here.