Defiler Balance [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

MalkorGodchyld

11-06-2008, 07:50 PM

Ok SoE... Im posting this in the Testing forums because Beta is still active & still in its latter stages of testing...so its pertinent.Its really hard to know where to start with this but i will say that maybe...just maybe Defilers are more difficult to balance because we fill two important roles whereas most healers fill one. We're shamans first...and are required to be on the same plane with mystics in so many respects. But we're also the Templar counterpart & in that respect we should be comparable in healing capacity. Trying to bring those two concepts together into a cohesive balance can understandably be difficult. But i think the failure in that regard has leaned more towards hampering the class as a whole...maybe out of apprehension from possibly overpowering the class?? So you choose the lesser of two evils?? Or maybe somebody out there bases changes on Raid heal parses?? Not taking into account that the nature of the ward mechanic is what makes Defilers parse comparably to Templars. It is NOT because we're balanced in overall healing capacity. When your looking at a parse...wards can make up for quite a bit of imbalance. ( on paper ) Im really trying to empathize with whoever spearheads our changes here...in any case, (IMO) it has been poorly done. Repeatedly poorly done. This isnt just a personal sentiment. Its a sentiment partly shared by other Defilers who have played the class extensively & know enough about the other priest classes to compare & contrast. The differences are sometimes slight yet they make a huge difference in gameplay. We're not asking to be Templars... but it does chafe' when we see our wards get outsourced...then in this expansion, the complete disregard of the lore that surrounds Defilers as the "sacrifice" healer ~ Clerics get a soulward equivalant...with an even better health to heal ratio, no less! This aside from the fact that we are GREATLY hampered by cast times across the board...NO other healer class can say the same and with the upcoming changes, Mystics cant even say the same. They get the option of fast cast dmg dealing and our options remain empty. How can an equal casting penalties be justified when we are anything BUT in comparison with other healers?? For some healers a cast reduction is laughable...they already have aa's & mythical skills that greatly increase cast times. Not so for us. Also this isn't an attempt to get any healer cast times nerfed...lord knows the lack of fun factor that brings!This class has the potential to be one of the most interesting & versatile classes in EQ2 but instead we've been continually watered down & chipped away at. Personally what i would like to see changed overall ? Cast times for hostile spells should be cut by 50% or a minumum 30%. Dot tic durations should also be reduced by atleast 25%, allowing dmg to occur faster. Including Defile & Pandemonium. We should have atleast 1 skill to increase casting times...my opinion? I never could figure out why Alacrity wasnt self castable. But that doesnt necessarily have to be it. The immunities skill in the intel line could easily be changed to casting speed. Also...our weakness in healing shows on incoming group dmg. There was an attempt to address that with our mythical...noted. But we have a skill already in our arsenal that could go a ways in helping with that. Crystalize Spirit. If that buff was changed to automatically cast a single target ward to every group member when a mob was killed...then it would be a viable skill & not a useless one. Also...the recast of spiritual shrine! Thats another small shift that came down the pipe awhile back... I could go on & on but the gist of what im saying is...a revamp is needed. The class as a whole needs to be re-examined, just like Sk's...just like Coercers...and its way past time. Marius X Nagafen

Alvar

11-07-2008, 12:15 PM

Well you're right in most cases because i do fell like devs when making defiler aa or epics etc only think about not making our class overpowered in any way and with every new expansion the gap between defiler and templar becomes biger and bigger because templar dev doesn't look at this thing and don't fear to overpower their class and that's what they did actually. In most aspects it's not the defiler problem that our class not balanced it's templars problem in their class being overpowered. Imo defilers are fine in most components exept:1.) Having bad set gear every new expansion and it continues ( worst of all classes set bonuses and focuses, especially compared to templars and mystics)2.) Crap dps compared to templars and mystics but i don't care about it much as long as they not given better heals/utility too, which they do atm.3.) Not being balanced in PVP because of interrupt mechanics and long casting speed on all spells, not just wards (mystics can at least cast their damage ca fast).4.) Crappy resist rates on debuffs but it's a problem for all casters not just us, but it's the first problem i would like them to fix, because it makes my gameplay totally not enjoyable.I can continue, however i don't think that our class is not broken yet but it's really comes close to it and if we don't pay attention to it now, soon we will be broken and ppl will start betraying or quitting .I can make couple suggestions how to solve problems i listed though devs seem to not listen to us and that's why we get what we get. Give us something usefull on our set gear- stop upgrading our worst or very situational spells on our gear, upgrade our best spells. For example make precognition groupwide, or spiritual shrine immune to aoes or make RoA affect both caster and target or make ward spells not interruptable etc.I don't really care about pvp hat much, because often balancing pvp breaks pve but i'm sure there are ways to make defilers better pvp healers like givin us immunity to interrupts and maybe faster casting of hostile spells too etc.Finally fix resits problem on spellsespecially debuffs becuse it's very not fair atm to all casters classes.And about casting speed i don't think that it's a big problem for clearing VP defiler in MT group cause there you have coercer 6 set bonus 15% reduction, then Coercive healing for another 15%, 7% from dirge Allegro, 14 % from monk raidwide buff and some more from your gear. However for not so good geared toon it's a problem yeah. Especially counting coercers will probably drop their 6 bonus with new expansion gear.

DCarnage2

11-07-2008, 01:37 PM

The biggest thing that I'm upset about is the healing stances between Mystics and Defilers. Defilers get +15% base wards and +15% cast speed for debuffs (I already have 75% cast speed for my debuffs in raid why do I want more?!) Mystics get +10% base wards and +15% cast time and +15% reuse. What the heck?! I would gladly give up +5% base ward for 15% cast/recast times. What if we were to maybe split the cast/reuse between the classes and drop the +15% casting speed to debuffs. So mystics would get +15% cast speed to beneficial spells and defilers would get +15% reuse speed. Hell give Mystics the +15% cast speed to debuffs.Right now Mystics > Defilers in every way and the gap will grow after the expansion hits. Mystics can heal just as good if not better than us and they can put up waaay better dps... hell there are a lot of guilds that are running 2 mystics and no defilers.If Defilers become the new bast. children of healers, I'm probably going to take a break from EQ2 for a year or so till a level increase or until the class is rebalanced with the other healers.And stop giving our class defining abilities away to everyone or give us a group regen heal like the druids have to compensate. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

MalkorGodchyld

11-07-2008, 01:47 PM

I agree with you about our class not being broken....yet! But we have been on the wrong road for a long time and if things continue this way, we will be soon. There are tons of Defilers who have already betrayed and or quit. The community is already small and the fact that its diminishing isnt an accident. One thing about being overpowered...when there is one healer class head & shoulders above in mulitiple aspects of gameplay then yes, they are OP. But when you look at it, Templars are not that far & away from other healers in all aspects. They're better yes...but the gap isnt that far. So is it OP when most of the priest classes can perform comparably? In my opinion...it isnt. So this this isnt a nerf call to Templars or Mystics. Defilers on the other hand must have missed the train that all of the other priests got on... we are too streamlined into one role and lack versatility. What we excel at? Even that can be a struggle without every support class that enhances cast speed. I agree with most of what you said though... there are aspects of improvement that really need to be examined and yes caution is needed so that PvP balance wont impinge on PvE balance but frankly it isnt hard to find a happy medium. The problem is that the right ppl dont even recognize it as an issue. Marius XNagafen

Cheydak

11-07-2008, 02:01 PM

<cite>Alvar@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well you're right in most cases because i do fell like devs when making defiler aa or epics etc only think about not making our class overpowered in any way and with every new expansion the gap between defiler and templar becomes biger and bigger because templar dev doesn't look at this thing and don't fear to overpower their class and that's what they did actually. In most aspects it's not the defiler problem that our class not balanced it's templars problem in their class being overpowered. Imo defilers are fine in most components exept:1.) Having bad set gear every new expansion and it continues ( worst of all classes set bonuses and focuses, especially compared to templars and mystics)2.) Crap dps compared to templars and mystics but i don't care about it much as long as they not given better heals/utility too, which they do atm.3.) Not being balanced in PVP because of interrupt mechanics and long casting speed on all spells, not just wards (mystics can at least cast their damage ca fast).4.) Crappy resist rates on debuffs but it's a problem for all casters not just us, but it's the first problem i would like them to fix, because it makes my gameplay totally not enjoyable.I can continue, however i don't think that our class is not broken yet but it's really comes close to it and if we don't pay attention to it now, soon we will be broken and ppl will start betraying or quitting .I can make couple suggestions how to solve problems i listed though devs seem to not listen to us and that's why we get what we get. Give us something usefull on our set gear- stop upgrading our worst or very situational spells on our gear, upgrade our best spells. For example make precognition groupwide, or spiritual shrine immune to aoes or make RoA affect both caster and target or make ward spells not interruptable etc.I don't really care about pvp hat much, because often balancing pvp breaks pve but i'm sure there are ways to make defilers better pvp healers like givin us immunity to interrupts and maybe faster casting of hostile spells too etc.Finally fix resits problem on spellsespecially debuffs becuse it's very not fair atm to all casters classes.And about casting speed i don't think that it's a big problem for clearing VP defiler in MT group cause there you have coercer 6 set bonus 15% reduction, then Coercive healing for another 15%, 7% from dirge Allegro, 14 % from monk raidwide buff and some more from your gear. However for not so good geared toon it's a problem yeah. Especially counting coercers will probably drop their 6 bonus with new expansion gear.</blockquote>I totally agree. The set gear for the last two expansions and RoK in particular has been horrific. Is there a single defiler wearing more than two pieces of the VP set gear?I really don't understand why SOE is intent on taking abilities that are unique to shaman, Defilers in particular, and handing them out with impunity to other healing classes but making them bigger, better and at a lower cost than anything we have. Aside from completely upsetting the balance between healer classes, it also totally waters down the flavor of the class those abilities are leached from. The ToS abilities are so out of balance right now that I'm questioning if it's worth buying the expansion and continuing to play. I'm thinking it isn't at this point.There have been a number of good suggestions made in the Defiler section for months now that have been ignored or only selectively adopted such as dropping the stifle off one of the most useless spells in our arsenal. Too bad the devs decided to nerf the already miniscule heal on this puppy in order to achieve this. That's an AA I wouldn't waste my time or my 10 AAs to purchase. Let's be honest...Pandemonium is a pointless spell and no matter how much you try to dress it up, it's still just a waste of a hotbar space and sticking it's equally pointless equivalent onto our mythical seemed a bit uninspired. Ditto to Deathward. The only thing that would make Deathward useful would be a substantial increase in its base amount and a heal at its expiration similar to Repent. Putting a damage reduction on it is all well and good but it doesn't last long enough to make it worthwhile.I would like to see some more reduction on beneficial cast and recast timers and lot less emphasis on dps increases. If the devs feel that that is such a priority for a healing class, then just beef up the shaman intel line and utilize the Tos abilities to give us something that would enhance our role as healers and debuffers, not low rent dps.

MalkorGodchyld

11-07-2008, 02:29 PM

Deathward is a bad joke. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /> Marius XNagafen

Alvar

11-07-2008, 03:24 PM

<cite>DCarnage2 wrote:</cite><blockquote> Defilers get +15% base wards and +15% cast speed for debuffs (I already have 75% cast speed for my debuffs in raid why do I want more?!) Mystics get +10% base wards and +15% cast time and +15% reuse.</blockquote>Mystics get only 15% cast speed and they don't get reuse on their healing stance. The only bad thing on our healing stance is that it makes our damaging debuffs to have slower casting speed that's it, however i would really like to have say 15% reuse on beneficial spells and only 10 base heal amount<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> like on mystic one but with reuse speed. And casting speed on our non damaging debuffs is useless, what we really need is debuffs that don't get resisted.

Cheydak

11-07-2008, 04:31 PM

<cite>MalkorGodchyld wrote:</cite><blockquote> Deathward Cheydak <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Soulward is fine, aside from the fact that it got nerfed for nothing. Deathward on the other hand is a bad joke. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" />Marius XNagafen</blockquote>hehe yeah...Should never post when I'm tired

MalkorGodchyld

11-07-2008, 04:37 PM

<cite>Alvar@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote> Give us something usefull on our set gear- stop upgrading our worst or very situational spells on our gear, upgrade our best spells. For example make precognition groupwide, or spiritual shrine immune to aoes or make RoA affect both caster and target or make ward spells not interruptable etc.</blockquote> Q F E... That one small paragraph largely wraps up our problems. RoA affecting both caster & target...fixed! Spiritual shrine immune to aoe's... fixed! No more crappy set bonuses and bonuses that are actually focused towards Defilers? fixed! I still think that hostile spell cast times need to be reduced by quite a bit. Our dps is horrible in comparison with other healers & while i know we aren't a dps class...why be left completely out?? I wont harp on Dps too much because our main priority as healers is support...BUT ~ Druids use HoT's and to off set the fact that hot's take time to really work, they have fast casting heals. Thats what makes it BALANCED. So a little love in the casting department for Defiler hostile spells isnt much to ask. Stop addressing the surface of the problem and get to the root of it plz... you increase our dmg crits & slightly increase the dmg % , or you give us a clicky?? All of those things mean nothing if we cant integrate them into our arsenal effectively, due to slow cast times. OR...due to slow DoT tick intervals. Again...Crystallize spirit being re-vamped to a % to cast a ward on group members for a kill...that would help a lot as well. Templars already have a skill thats similar to that but better. Its not much to ask imo for a useless skill that we have an AA line dedicated to. And i will NEVER understand why we didnt get a 15% recast reduction on our heal stance, but instead a 15% increase to debuffs thats barely even noticable. That just confuses me to no end. Marius XNagafen

Riverstone

11-07-2008, 06:09 PM

<cite>MalkorGodchyld wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Alvar@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote> Give us something usefull on our set gear- stop upgrading our worst or very situational spells on our gear, upgrade our best spells. For example make precognition groupwide, or spiritual shrine immune to aoes or make RoA affect both caster and target or make ward spells not interruptable etc.</blockquote> Q F E... That one small paragraph largely wraps up our problems. RoA affecting both caster & target...fixed! Spiritual shrine immune to aoe's... fixed! No more crappy set bonuses and bonuses that are actually focused towards Defilers? fixed! I still think that hostile spell cast times need to be reduced by quite a bit. Our dps is horrible in comparison with other healers & while i know we aren't a dps class...why be left completely out?? I wont harp on Dps too much because our main priority as healers is support...BUT ~ Druids use HoT's and to off set the fact that hot's take time to really work, they have fast casting heals. Thats what makes it BALANCED. So a little love in the casting department for Defiler hostile spells isnt much to ask. Stop addressing the surface of the problem and get to the root of it plz... you increase our dmg crits & slightly increase the dmg % , or you give us a clicky?? All of those things mean nothing if we cant integrate them into our arsenal effectively, due to slow cast times. OR...due to slow DoT tick intervals. Again...Crystallize spirit being re-vamped to a % to cast a ward on group members for a kill...that would help a lot as well. Templars already have a skill thats similar to that but better. Its not much to ask imo for a useless skill that we have an AA line dedicated to. And i will NEVER understand why we didnt get a 15% recast reduction on our heal stance, but instead a 15% increase to debuffs thats barely even noticable. That just confuses me to no end. Marius XNagafen</blockquote>I have a Templar as well as a Defiler and, yeah, things have been unbalanced since RoK. I agree with everything that's been posted...bad set gear, bad marquee spells, and the promise of more bad AAs to come for this class. I especially agree with Marius about the 15% increase to debuffs on the healing stance. It seems a bit pointless since most defilers opt for Curseweaving anyway. A 15% recast reduction would only make sense, especially since there's very little gear most defilers can get that help with recast timers. Someone stated above that a coercer wearing the 6 piece VP set can help reduce recast timers. This is true however I don't there's any circumstance that can justify one class being at the mercy of another class' gear to help overcome issues like this. That just isn't a viable solution. At the risk of betraying my templar, I also agree that abilities which belong to one class should not be handed to others unless it's reciprocal.Agreed that Pandemonium needs to be put to rest. Horrible horrible spell. I also agree that deathward, even with the AA tweak is still dreadful when compared to repent.

Sfumato2047

11-08-2008, 02:58 AM

Yeah I hate the fact that a warlock can do more damage than my templar which isnt fair since a warlock is the evil version of a templar.FYI the counterpart of a defiler is a MYSTIC NOT a templar, and plz next time you spend that much time typing a post up do a little bit of research first.

Alvar

11-08-2008, 03:45 AM

<cite>Sfumato2047 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah I hate the fact that a warlock can do more damage than my templar which isnt fair since a warlock is the evil version of a templar.FYI the counterpart of a defiler is a MYSTIC NOT a templar, and plz next time you spend that much time typing a post up do a little bit of research first.</blockquote>Thanks for a smart*ss reply but next time you reply please read whole thread first where we complain about our issues and balance with mystics AA/set gear too. As i already said Templars just overpowered healer class and not balanced, but i don't care about em as long as it helps keeping tank alive. And it's not nerf templars thread, devs are not blind and can see what happens with ballance (maybe they can't as you can say by looking at current situation with op templars and druids missing any kind of good group dps/defensive utility 3rd expansion in a row, summoners being outparsed by enchanters who have x3 more utility etc).

MalkorGodchyld

11-08-2008, 03:50 AM

<cite>Sfumato2047 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah I hate the fact that a warlock can do more damage than my templar which isnt fair since a warlock is the evil version of a templar.FYI the counterpart of a defiler is a MYSTIC NOT a templar, and plz next time you spend that much time typing a post up do a little bit of research first.</blockquote>wtb troll master strike tbh.... I seriously almost didnt even respond to you as this thread is intended to be constructive. So i'll keep it simple...Defilers are shamans...Mystics are shamans.Defilers have more of a Primary healer role on evil side... Templars have more of a Primary healer role on good side.Its not an accident that Defilers/Templars are typically used in the MT group in most Raid guilds world wide. See the two correllations there? How Defilers sorta cross between both classes in a way? No? Its ok...read it a couple more times and if it doesn't make sense, it's because you dont know the classes well enough champ. I wont even ask you to do research... Nice try on flaming & derailing the thread?? GGMarius XNagafen

Essenar

11-08-2008, 07:39 AM

Completely agree with everything said here (apart from Sfumato's lame troll attempt obviously).I know that when handing out AA's it is preferable to make the AA's for the classes within the subclass different, to avoid convergence, in some cases maybe this is counterproductive. For example the Shammy heal stance AA's in TSO. Reuse/Casting speed is the shammie's number one achilles heel, to give to Mystics but not Defilers is a glaring imbalance imo. Now, I guess the Devs argument would be that Defilers, being MT healers, will in typical raid set ups have both Coercer and Dirge support, whereas Mystics may have neither, and I would agree with that. BUT people do things other than raiding, even some guilds that raid cannot always run the "ideal" set ups, and with the imbalances creeping in against Defilers, their guarantee of an MT spot (and therefore any spot at all) comes into question. Does having tendrils and Soulward (now that Temps will get a better alternative) justify keeping us in above equally good (at baseline) healing Mystics, who now will be able to spew their wards out alot faster than us, given the same MT setup? Sadly...no. I dunno, maybe the cynic in me says that this is the Dev team wanting to rationalise the number of classes, but the counter argument to that is why in the hell bother spending dev time finally doing something to fix SKs and Bruisers? If they want to rationalise, why not just continue to let them rot? So, I am going to lean towards non-strategic thinking here, in which case...dont let things go live as they are now please!Fix the heal stance - Defiler stance = 10% reuse, 15% heal/ward, Mystics +15% reuse, +10% heal/ward, ditch the debuff speed bonus, its pointlessRest of the fixes as outlined by AlvarOh, and another thing, when trying to balance classes within specific settings (eg raid vs heroic content) use the gear obtained from these to provide the balance within these pursuits, this would also help with the increasingly sticky itemisation situation.

DCarnage2

11-08-2008, 09:59 AM

<cite>Alvar@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mystics get only 15% cast speed and they don't get reuse on their healing stance.</blockquote>Unless they have changed the Mystic's healing stance within the last two weeks on beta, then they still have +10% base heal, +15% Cast/Recast.

Alvar

11-08-2008, 12:09 PM

It says 15 cast/reuse on descrition but i think it's a mistake because i don't see 15 reuse on listed effects.

MalkorGodchyld

11-08-2008, 03:30 PM

I believe its a 15% cast speed increase for Mystics & not reuse. Probably just a typo somewhere. Also its a 10% base heal increase. 13.5% spell dmg reduction. 5% Critical heal amount. & 10% power & reuse increase for hostile spells.Now this is what we get... 15% cast speed to non dmging debuffs. USELESS. Most if not all Defilers havecurseweaving that gives us a 50% cast reduction to our non dmging debuffs, so this is totally wasted.One thing i wanna note on curseweaving...it does NOT and never has effected our Bane of Warding line, yet the increase on our healing stance DOES effect the Bane of Warding line, recognizing it as a Debuff. I have always wondered about this discrepancy in Curseweaving. Again...the class as a whole needs to be re-examined for multiple discrepancies such as what i described here. Ok so continuing... We get a 15% base increase. (only an extra 5%) Oh and 15% spell dmg reduction. ( Mystics get 13.5% yet they have WAY WAY more dps potential) ???? Ok we both get 5% Critical heal amount. But get this. They get a 10%.... yes 10% power & reuse penalty for hostile spells. NOT CAST TIME...reuse. and 10%. This 10% penalty in reuse, is negated by the wisdom line in the Shaman AA tree by the way. Very Clever.Hats off to the Mystic class coordinator. And i mean that. Ever since DoF you've been steadily improving the Mystic class. You know your job sir...so sad the Defiler class cant say the same. The most tangible improvement for our class specifically (post DoF) was not originated by the Dev team. Anyway...we get a 15% hostile spell Cast time penalty, exacerbating the already horribly slow cast speed weakness of the Shaman class.Does anybody else see the gross imbalance here??? I cant think that its hard to see...so that would lead me to question whether its intentional disregard? But i'll leave that alone for another thread perhaps. In this category for various reasons the two Shaman classes are almost identical. Since that is the case our heal stances should also be VERY similar yet slightly different in my opinion. Defiler heal stance should be. 15% reuse reduction for beneficial spells. 10% base heal increase. 5% to critical heal amount OR...if your hell bent on focusing on debuffs, 5% to non dmging debuff cast times. The penalty should be the same. 10% power & reuse for hostile spells. A slight variation of that would even be exceptable as i see it. There's more than one way to skin a cat...but make no mistake, the cat DOES need to be skinned.Marius XNagafen

Somatic

11-09-2008, 03:21 AM

Templars jumped ahead of all healers last xpac, they got the most. Mystics prob got the 2nd biggest boost. Pretty much all other healers got very minor boosts.Seems this theme is continueing in SOD. Templars new AAs are killer. -- which is great for them, other healers want killer AAs also is all! It's prob a top Designer plays a Templar and knows that class very well, where not many play the other healer classes or if they do they don't play it endgame really.

tikasa

11-09-2008, 07:51 AM

Mystics are not the problem. I can do more DPS on my defiler than a Melee specced Mystic in my guild when I am not in MT group. The problem here is they are giving Templars more and more of our abilities. They should never have gotten a ward the last time and now they get another of our abilities. Inquisitors and Wardens are alot worse off then we are.Right now Templars are the most OP class. The devs have done EVERYTHING in their power to keep them going in that direction. Right now we are going to need all 5 of the non templars to help us get this garbage fixed. Right now in Beta all 5 are trying but we need all the classes to chime in or when this goes live Templars are going to be the healer to play for the next year.Ward needs to go.Their version of soulward needs to go.Their utility needs to be lowered. ( Stoneskin and SA alone more then makes up for our debuffs )

DCarnage2

11-09-2008, 12:38 PM

<cite>Alvar@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>It says 15 cast/reuse on descrition but i think it's a mistake because i don't see 15 reuse on listed effects.</blockquote>It doesn't show because it's not to all spells but only beneficial ones.

flowercivicsi

11-09-2008, 02:52 PM

Defilers may be able to top a heal parse, but that does not mean we are over powered as it all has to do with what the parse is logging and where. Templars show alot of their strengths within the Avoidance Reports, and we should all know that stoneskins are not recorded within a heal parse. Shamans nor Druids can offer anything to the avoidance report, and we don't have group stoneskins. Also to the defiler that said he is outparsing his melee specced mystic... time to find a new mystic! The mystic within my guild picks what spec to come in on raids... Yes, when he is heal specced we both will be very close to one another in terms of DPS, but when he come full melee specced he can make our DPS classes sweat. I have seen him parse for 3-5k depending on the mob, and he's still tossing in debuffs etc. I would not even be able to dream of touching him on a DPS parse when he is melee specced. In regards to the ideas that we as a defiler community have in regards to where we would like to go, there is a rather comprehensive thread within the defiler forums as again we are hoping to have a bit of developer attention. I understand it's a complicated job to try to balance classes, and this expansion you have been tinkering alot with the tanks as to what they can do. Please, I ask that developers take some time during the week to visit and talk with us in our class forums and show us that you would like to see about balancing healer classes. I know you can't do everything, but we do have some good ideas we would like to share with developers.All we want is for the class to remain unique, and not diluted with our abilities provided to other healing clases. Repent we were all rather shocked, then with the sacrifical heal was simply a hard blow to the uniqueness of our class as a whole.

Laenai

11-09-2008, 03:24 PM

If you haven't seen the new TSO shaman pieces, you'll be interested to note that on one of the pieces, there's a 5% increase to base wards. In all of the pieces, there's ~5% alacrity. So they're getting a third of our 'uber' ability and we're getting a third of theirs. The set pieces bonuses are better than our VP set bonuses...probably because its MYSTIC/defiler and not just defiler. But really...does anyone wear more than 2 pieces of our VP set? And isn't just because you can't find a better piece to put into that slot?Please note also that defilers top a heal parse because we get all the awesome heal buffs in the MT group. Coercive healing? Us. Fury mythical boost? Us. Add to that DKTM and the groupwide Coercer heal crit AA? Yeah. However, we could never do it without all that stuff. We couldn't even come close. But templars and mystics easily overcome that hurdle self-buffed and with little to no outside help. Now, mystics I can almost understand why they get the ability to be uber on their own because most mystics don't get any healing help at all in the scout group and HAVE to be uber on their own. But templars? Not so much.Eventually, we're gonna be able to cast our non-DoT debuffs so fast (between curseweaving and our new AAs) that just having a defiler in the raid will automatically debuff the mob. I don't know about anyone else, but I think I'll be speccing the DPS stance even though I'm the MT defiler, because the heal stance is practically worthless.Then again, I'm still a little angry and upset that evil healers are still taking the shaft so far as an evil healer god goes, yet the already uber-powered good healer classes are getting a second healer god with new and improved blessings.I truly have a feeling that either the devs are trying to suck the heal out of defiler and make us a total debuff bot class or the defiler dev just really sucks, doesn't know how to play our class, doesn't listen to those who can, and we need to vote him off the island. If its the former and not the latter, please let us know before we start losing our places in raids and in guilds. If its the latter, well...put in a call to Jeff Probst please. And quickly...before another LU11 happens and templars get the ultimate beatdown again.

MalkorGodchyld

11-09-2008, 05:07 PM

<cite>tikasa wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mystics are not the problem. I can do more DPS on my defiler than a Melee specced Mystic in my guild when I am not in MT group. The problem here is they are giving Templars more and more of our abilities. They should never have gotten a ward the last time and now they get another of our abilities. Inquisitors and Wardens are alot worse off then we are.Right now Templars are the most OP class. The devs have done EVERYTHING in their power to keep them going in that direction. Right now we are going to need all 5 of the non templars to help us get this garbage fixed. Right now in Beta all 5 are trying but we need all the classes to chime in or when this goes live Templars are going to be the healer to play for the next year.Ward needs to go.Their version of soulward needs to go.Their utility needs to be lowered. ( Stoneskin and SA alone more then makes up for our debuffs )</blockquote>Well...this really wasn't intended to be a nerf call but the writing is on the wall. Templars ARE out of balance & its not hard to see. I would prefer all other healers got brought in line instead. Also i personally dont think that when considering all aspects of gameplay, Wardens & Inquizzies are terribly far behind Templars... mainly because they dont share the same role . We're all healers yes, but our roles within the priest subclass are slightly different. But i could be wrong... Shaman DPS isn't even comparable dude...if you find a Defiler that can out DPS or Compete with a melee specced Mystic, i'll show you a crappy Mystic. Plain & simple. One thing about DPS though... this is too often easily dismissed because (A) We're healers. & (B) Somebody somewhere parsed this or that! DPS versatility is all about time... the ability to do dmg in X amount of time. On a raid mob a Defiler out of the MT group can parse pretty solid. That Defiler probably has Time compression...a troub...etc. But still...solid. Its only because the mob takes more time to kill which in turn gives our DoT's time to tick through a full duration. On a regular mob we're lucky to get a spell off, let alone have a dot tick through. Thats 2 drawbacks! Slow cast time... Slow dmg over Time. We lack versatility. We need options. We are too un-self sufficient as a class & even the other support classes cant say the same. Im especially attuned to this because im on a PvP server but im telling you...it makes ALL the difference in terms of fun factor and also Dps output in a variety of situations. Not just raid mobs.Marius XNagafen

MalkorGodchyld

11-09-2008, 05:18 PM

<cite>Alaocia@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote> Templars show alot of their strengths within the Avoidance Reports, and we should all know that stoneskins are not recorded within a heal parse. Shamans nor Druids can offer anything to the avoidance report, and we don't have group stoneskins. </blockquote> So so true... And our debuffs can't even almost compare with the benefits of that.

CalypsoCGN

11-10-2008, 04:14 AM

I would like to add some of my thoughts to that topic.I'm a raiding Defiler, but unlike most fellow Defilers I use to work in the OT / DPS group. Being a solo healer in a DPS-group quite frankly shows me the flaws of our class on every single raid...Healing:As posted prior solo-healing Shamans in general have a problem to get the whole group into the green again (specially on AOE heavy fights.). Now...OLH helped in that direction, but it will get the nerfstick in TSO and is rendered almost to full uselessness. The TSO-AA adding a heal to our groupward will help a bit, but we still suffer from too long cast times / recast.Fixes for those problems have already been posted. Shamans in general need better casting times and reduced recast (Defilers > Mystics, if you take into accound that the VP set literally halfs the recast on their groupward...but since the set will most likely be replaced both will need it).Also it would be nice, if you gave us something like a "lotto-heal / ward" as posted above in return for handing our some of our abilities to other classes. The idea os turning Crystallized Essence into a lotto-heal buff is [Removed for Content] nice. It is intended to be a healing related buff either way...just that people need to click the [Removed for Content] thing (which most just wont do). So changing it into a lotto-heal wouldnt change the spell too much, yet add the usefullness to it that we need so much (or turn it into a single target buff that has a chance to casts a ward on every groupmember on a successfull hit...).DPS:Well...we ain't a dps class. Thats for shure! But there is a HUUUUGE gap between Mystics and Defilers. A CA-specced Mystic can put out awesome dps. If I spec for dps it's almost not noticable... Dont get me wrong...I chose this class to be a healer, not to be able to dps. But it would be nice to get some sort of utility to counter that gap (i.e. the single target heal buff or something alike).If you want to really improve a Defilers dps, then you need to decrease the time that our dot's tick for (as you did it with warlock dot's aswell...) and not give us a little %-based increase in damage (that you will hardly even be able to see in the parse either way).TSO stances:- For the heal stance Defilers need:faster casting on beneficial spells (not the [Removed for Content] debuffs) > reduced recast > base heal increase > crit heal amountPenalty should be the same as the mystic ones.Also while talking about TSO stances. Why is it that the healing stance cancels the benefits gained through the priest-AA ability that grants you 3 additional buffs (forgot the name)? I bed you pardon...thats just utter bull****.... It's not as if it would overpower us to get the little dps boost from these buffs. They dont even negociate the penalties from our healing stance completely...

Sfumato2047

11-10-2008, 07:34 AM

I know but it always ends up like this lol, oh well as usal I will still keep playing my temp no matter what they throw at us going on 5 years and it will still come down to the better player and not the better class. Thats not in no way saying you or anybody that have posted do not have valid points and or suck at healing, its just posts like this always end up being a nerf topic.

webphi

11-10-2008, 10:31 AM

<cite>Mitu@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know but it always ends up like this lol, oh well as usal I will still keep playing my temp no matter what they throw at us going on 5 years and it will still come down to the better player and not the better class. Thats not in no way saying you or anybody that have posted do not have valid points and or suck at healing, its just posts like this always end up being a nerf topic.</blockquote>Sadly no. Before any heal, ward debuff or anything is cast, a templar already destroy any other healer just with their stoneskin + shield ally. No matter how crappy he is and how skilled the others are, you are not gonna beat a templar.I guess that's why these templars deserve better AAs. And ward (with heal, not gonna have something as crappy as these shamen) and soulward (just 95% instead of 90%).I think templars now just need a cool HoT and they will be ok.

Sfumato2047

11-10-2008, 10:56 AM

Well the best of luck to you its just norm the classes questioning balance are usal the ones that are never in the MT group, I don't know I guess I have just been lucky to know alot of really great defiler's.

Lolianna

11-10-2008, 02:25 PM

I dunno, I've played a Defiler and betrayed to mystic upon request, but, I have fun playing both of the classes. TBH tho, I would have to say I have more fun as a defiler. Too much is built around the mystic's dog dog. They feel more like a summoner/ healer combo. What I am /boggled about is the fact that as soon as a ranger posted after the NDA lifted it was booted to 'the proper forums'. How is this post still here and not been given the kick to defiler forums? Odd how some classes are allowed to voice their concerns over TSO aa's in this forum and others are not. /shrug.

Sedenten

11-10-2008, 02:38 PM

I am in full agreement concerning the stances, deathward, and the idea about changing crystallize essence. The general consenus of defilers on beta is that the stance makes no sense with the 15% casting speed on non-damaging debuffs. The mystic stance is not reuse and casting speed, however. It is only casting speed, though the description of the AA says both. I've tested this myself, and it has no reuse speed at all for beneficials to their stance. That being said, I don't think defilers would get a full 15% reuse bonus to our stance. I could see us getting 10% bonus to reuse and just losing the 15% debuff bonus entirely. At the same time, mystics need to not be penalized for casting debuffs in their healing stance (which may have been updated in the last few days; I haven't checked).I am, however, confused about the big deal with the new templar AA sacrifice. Soulward is still much more potent because it remains a ward. Sacrifice is a straight heal. In other words, the target must be down quite a bit of health when it lands for the ability to do much of anything. It would depend much more on timing than our version. I don't even care that it's 95% of the templar's health versus 90% for ours--again, theirs is a straight heal and ours is a ward. You cannot compare the two abilities at all and make an argument that the new Sacrifice AA is in any way, shape, or form going to be near the potency of our Soulward. At least Soulward sticks around for 1 minute and absorbs any damage that makes it through our normal wards in the meantime. I'm surprised that my fellow defilers are throwing such a fit over that. I could see being upset because the mechanic of giving up health for healing is a defiler trademark, but using soulward as a comparison isn't going to make a good argument. I'm hearing defilers spout off how Sacrifice is so much better than soulward, and that's simply not true.I also didn't completely agree with how Repent was handed out, though I think Deathward could be tweaked a bit to make up for that (much larger base, much larger low hit point amount, and halved recast). Finally, I do think defilers need some tweaking. It would only take polishing a couple of our spells and altering the heal stance to accomplish that. There's been quite a bit of feedback given but very little taken into consideration so far.

Nugan

11-10-2008, 02:48 PM

In this current state, I have debated playing my Templar several times pending we get a good and dependable Defiler in guild, as they are the more superior healer in a raid setting.First and foremost, I would like to say that *most* of what is being proposed and addressed here is for the raiding Defiler. The reasoning for this is simple, you are not going to be running a Defiler and a Mystic in a group together, ever, on raids or in heroic content. Pending skill any priest can solo heal any heroic instance. This is fact, if you disagree, then see the pending skill part. With that said, you wouldn't put a Defiler and a Templar together for a heroic instance either, not because the classes don't go well together, but because either one of them can solo heal any dungeon. If I had to take my pick of which single healer to bring along for RE2, it would easily go Templar > Mystic > Inquisitor > Defiler > Fury > Warden. This is assuming they are all skilled, and can all solo heal said instance.You know things are fairly out of balance when pretty much anything is killable with 2 mystics and 4 templars, and that is just about optimum setup wise. Sure, you could squeeze some more DPS in by throwing in an Inquisitor, but facts are facts.Now with all of that on the table, let's discuss the Defilers role in a raid, and the current AA's, Mythicals, and even spells attributed to other priests making Defilers pretty much worthless in comparison.<ul><li>Defilers buff more constant HP than a Mystic, however Mystics get Bolster (yay, get big, w/e) - Templars buff more HP than Defilers as far as I know post-Mythicals (Aegolism a group wide buff, also the Trak BP increasing group buffs HP)</li><li>As far as Mythicals go, the Defiler mythical is arguably one of if not the worst. Templars is much more superior and a Mystics clicky alone pretty much makes the Defilers entire Mythical a total pos.</li><li>Skill wise, Defilers get Deathward, which is pretty much a joke compared to Repent, and dare I say Stoicism (Don't get me wrong, I still cast Deathward, but even with Arm of Erollsi up and the target at ~20% it only hits for ~3500) Repent on the other hand doesn't increase based on the targets health percentage, and is a fairly big ward.</li></ul>There is simply a major imbalance of classes. I understand that Wardens and Furies are much worse off than us (and arguably Inquisitors), however that is NO reason to make us any worse off. Also, not to mention the fact that any self respecting Mystic can parse (dps wise, of course) insanely high for a Priest, it would only make sense for Defilers to be the more defense / survival oriented healer, as Templars are compared to Inquisitors.This about sums up a chunk of it, I'll go ahead and chart up all of the spells, AA's, avoidance reports, and everything else and get that posted just to clearly state for anyone who has difficulty grasping this (or, to be blunt, just is not a good player and therefore thinks that their class should have one easy iWin button to compensate for their lack of intelligence).Thanks,Nugan.

flowercivicsi

11-10-2008, 04:16 PM

When templars recieved repent, and we recieved deathward... we grumbled, but we dealt with it....Bonuses on VP gear... we grumbled, but again we did not make a scene...When mythicals were released... we grumbled some more, and recieved a rather dissapointing change that was not even released as described... again we dealt with it...TSO was just crossing the line as in RoK you took uniqueness away from the shaman class and provided that to a templar... This time you are taking the uniqueness of the defiler and providing this to clerics. We are not going to remain silent anymore, but we are not going to go on a rampage as we simply want this addressed in a productive manner. The new good healing god was also a let down as you already provided them with a good healing deity (Tunare), and now they get The Prime Healer? It would have been better to make this deity a neutral deity to permit for both sides of the spectrum to benefit from the new healer deity of choice. This may be fine for PvP evil healers, but this is a hard blow to PvE evil healers.I would really like to encourage the developers to please talk with us, and at the very least acknowledge that you are reading what your customers are typing.

MalkorGodchyld

11-10-2008, 05:47 PM

SEDENTEN..... I hear you man. I also dont think the new Sacrifice AA for clerics is better than Soulward and i kinda doubt that any reasonable minded Defiler does. Although, the comparison is fair for more than one reason. Soulward was nerfed awhile back...apparently someone thought the possibility of a pre-ward like that before the start of combat was grossly imbalancing for the game. So it is now only castable in combat as you know. Well the nature of the spell (the fact that its insta cast) and also the penalty (health sacrifice) , those two things, as well as the recast, sets the stage for when that spell is gonna be used in a majority of situations. ( in emergencies) So yes...its a ward that lasts for 1 minute but more often than not it's used in a manner that Sacrifice will be used in. (emergencies) I can imagine that Sacrifices & Soulwards will be overlapped quite often! ~ Tanks health hits red...Soulward popped...tank doesnt die...Sacrifice hit....Tank is topped off ~ In a situation like that the full benefits of both spells are used. So it's not only the obvious comparison, that all of a sudden clerics sacrifice health for heals like us... /boggle. I hear where your coming from though...i just think the comparison is valid. Marius XNagafen

Sedenten

11-10-2008, 06:09 PM

<cite>MalkorGodchyld wrote:</cite><blockquote>SEDENTEN..... I hear you man. I also dont think the new Sacrifice AA for clerics is better than Soulward and i kinda doubt that any reasonable minded Defiler does. Although, the comparison is fair for more than one reason. Soulward was nerfed awhile back...apparently someone thought the possibility of a pre-ward like that before the start of combat was grossly imbalancing for the game. So it is now only castable in combat as you know. Well the nature of the spell (the fact that its insta cast) and also the penalty (health sacrifice) , those two things, as well as the recast, sets the stage for when that spell is gonna be used in a majority of situations. ( in emergencies) So yes...its a ward that lasts for 1 minute but more often than not it's used in a manner that Sacrifice will be used in. (emergencies) I can imagine that Sacrifices & Soulwards will be overlapped quite often! ~ Tanks health hits red...Soulward popped...tank doesnt die...Sacrifice hit....Tank is topped off ~ In a situation like that the full benefits of both spells are used. So it's not only the obvious comparison, that all of a sudden clerics sacrifice health for heals like us... /boggle. I hear where your coming from though...i just think the comparison is valid. Marius XNagafen </blockquote>Fair enough, and I can definately understand that angle. I just couldn't understand how Sacrifice was "better" than Soulward <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Personally I'd rather have Soulward, but the crossing class boundaries angle I can definately agree with.

flowercivicsi

11-10-2008, 06:44 PM

Sacrifice vs. Soulward... Yes Soulward may be a bit better, but the point is that defilers are the sacrifical healer, and this was an end line ability for us within our EoF tree. To take our end line ability turn it into a heal, and give it to clerics is a blow to the uniqueness of the defiler class. When we look at the abilities we recieved in comparison (shaman end item is a new trick for the dog) that's rather dissapointing, and reminds me sooo much of RoK. Devs keep chipping away at us, but yet we have not recieved anything to compensate with uniqueness we have lost. My personal prefrence would be to remove sacrifice all together, and provide clerics with something really that would be unique to them! Who knows maybe an ability that would cast an item simlar to the warden tree and defilers circle and it would proc mini reactives on surrounding group members and last for X amount of time. Another idea would be unique by having clerics as the the curse masters with a group cure curse? I just think there are other cool things that could have been done to keep it unique for the classes. I'm not asking for nerfage... just a change to keep our uniqueness intact in regards to the Cleric/Shaman end line abilities. Clerics may also have some great ideas about what they would have liked to see in that spot besides sacrifice.

Ceolus

11-10-2008, 09:55 PM

I did hear that the only dev who plays a defiler is in a casual guild, hardly ever raids (and when he does it's no more than T2), loves to solo. That makes sense, and it means that we're doomed until he's fired.

MalkorGodchyld

11-10-2008, 10:15 PM

Personally i try not to believe everything i hear... but even humoring that idea, it would still be hard to believe. The changes that have taken place over the past couple of years hasn't leaned towards a solo oriented Defiler. We still solo slower than any other priest by a fair amount. We also have virtually no utility. Those things are critical to anyone who's solo minded. Without them it becomes more of a chore than anything else...and nobody like chores.So assuming there IS a Dev responsible for our changes...in my mind there's really no rhyme or reason behind much of what he/she does. So who knows... maybe what you've heard is true. Maybe its totally made up. Whatever the case i just wish there was someone who designed changes to our class that put a little more... care in it. Marius XNagafen

Ceolus

11-10-2008, 11:17 PM

A few people mentioned the fact that mystics aren't in main tank group where they'd otherwise receive advantages such as Fury bonus heal clicky, coercive healing, etc.However, at a certain point we won't even be the best MT shaman(some may argue that we already aren't) and won't receive these bonuses either way. So you'll have a mystic that will suit any group just fine and is self-sufficient + has group dependent buffs on them--then you have a defiler who does not have self-sufficient bonuses (like the -7 second recast and the 15% faster casting) and really doesn't bring an added bonus to any group.

MalkorGodchyld

11-11-2008, 04:20 AM

Here's a few ideas to toss around, that i think would help a bit in both PvP & PvE while not unbalancing either. Shaman Tree: Strength line - . Aura of haste could be changed to cast speed instead of attack speed. This would help both Mystics and Defilers. Both classes could use it imo Agility line - Phalanx should have a 20 meter range increase. It would turn into an attractive option that both shaman could use for some viable utility. The idea fits just fine...we use spears...how can we not know how to throw them?? Stamina line - Dazing Bash should be turned into a snare. More much needed utility that would add some flavor to shamans. Options are king! Herbal Expertise should include our group cure and not just single target. Never could figure out why this wasn't the case initially. Wisdom line - Ritual of Alacrity should be self castable. Giving us the option of whether we cast it on ourselves in a given situation will add another element of skill to the class as a whole. Intelligence line - Immunities should have a 20% effectiveness and be self castable only. Defiler Spells: Panic - Our single target fear should be castable on the run like the illusionist mez. Crystallize Essence - as previously mentioned this is a near useless spell in its current form. It would warrant an AA line being dedicated to it, if it were a group buff that worked in the same fashion except that it single target wards every one in group if a mob is killed and it procs. Words of Ancestors - This gem is usually left out when Defilers speak about our abilities being hijacked. We had this before Sanctuary but of course they tweaked a thing or two and made Sanctuary bigger and better. Two things with this spell...the effect range should be doubled AT LEAST. For PvP i would say that it needs a 30 sec reduction in recast as well. Spiritual Shrine - Immune to AoE's (awesome idea Alvar ) Abomination - Should be a 20% stat debuff. This whole line getting nerfed was probably the single biggest blow that Defilers got on PvP servers and maybe even for the class in general. This spell is what made up for some of the imbalances that are posted in regards to dps. Whoever designed the class initially gave us that debuff for a reason. The Debuff was taken but was never replaced with ANYTHING to make up for the hinderance that it brought to the class overall. Prior to the nerf it was a 32% Stat debuff across the board. Now its a set 59?? at M1 USELESS. With our slow cast times, i figure its a waste of time to cast at all...its not even on my hotbar /shrug The odd thing is that the spell was nerfed right when Mystics got Bolster, which strikes me as a blatant "middle finger" to our class. At minimum our debuff should have been nerfed to equal what Bolster buffs for at M1. 20% Defiler Tree: Curseweaving - The spell should include Bane of Warding. Bane of warding is clearly a debuff yet its not included in the benefits given by curseweaving. Why??? Lastly our DoT's....all of them, including Pandemonium and Defile. 25% reduction in duration/dmg tic intervals. I also still think our base spell cast times could use some attention across the board. Or maybe even just for specific spells. Most of whats posted has more bearing on PvP but i also think that all of it could integrate and enhance PvE as well without much of a hitch. Small changes that would make all the difference in gameplay. Marius XNagafen

flowercivicsi

11-12-2008, 12:31 PM

<cite>MalkorGodchyld wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's a few ideas to toss around, that i think would help a bit in both PvP & PvE while not unbalancing either. Shaman Tree: Strength line - . Aura of haste could be changed to cast speed instead of attack speed. This would help both Mystics and Defilers. Both classes could use it imoI like this idea, even though I know the tank and the swash love the haste... It should benefit our role more anyways so this is a very good idea. Agility line - Phalanx should have a 20 meter range increase. It would turn into an attractive option that both shaman could use for some viable utility. The idea fits just fine...we use spears...how can we not know how to throw them?? Stamina line - Dazing Bash should be turned into a snare. I am not feeling this one as it's a neat little melee attack, and I can use that during raids... a snare is kinda useless in a raid application and solo since it takes some of us a while to chew away at some mobs... This gives you a wee bit of extra DPS, but also allows you a few seconds to get a ward up if you are looking at the soloing aspect. I can see how this would be beneficial in a PvP application though. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> More much needed utility that would add some flavor to shamans. Options are king! Herbal Expertise should include our group cure and not just single target. It would be nice, but I don't think this will be changed anytime soon. Never could figure out why this wasn't the case initially. Wisdom line - Ritual of Alacrity should be self castable. I would love for this to be castable on myself, but I think their reasoning for not permitting it to be castable on yourself was to make sure you gave it to other players... If I could cast this on me... my swash and guard can take a hike. Giving us the option of whether we cast it on ourselves in a given situation will add another element of skill to the class as a whole. Intelligence line - Immunities should have a 20% effectiveness and be self castable only. Immunities has been needing a revamp for a while. It looks like it could be great, and with your suggested change this would make the int line a little more attractive for PvE defilers as well. Defiler Spells: Panic - Our single target fear should be castable on the run like the illusionist mez. Crystallize Essence - as previously mentioned this is a near useless spell in its current form. It would warrant an AA line being dedicated to it, if it were a group buff that worked in the same fashion except that it single target wards every one in group if a mob is killed and it procs. Umm, you mean it would work kinda like the furys savage (something... sawry don't know the name of it) I have heard a number of ideas for this, and I'm sorry I still like two ideas I have heard so far. One person suggsted that the item no longer be a heal, but happy clicky that would reduce cast time, reuse, and recovery (RoA) group for 20 seconds. The one to get it would have to still be a group member and kill the mob, but it would allow for the defiler to be a little more attractive in other groups besides the MT group. (Killer idea)I had an idea to ditch the pand AA in the defiler tree and replace it with a 5-10% increase per a point bringing the aoe heal to 25-50% bigger. Either way this is an AOE heal, and when stuff hits the fan I know our dirge, swash, and even mezzer have ran over to a group that may be a little too low and brought them up a little bit. In it's currect form with the hard hits it does not do much expect help a little bit for a healer that's behind. Even at 50% increase it would not be too big of a heal, but it would become more useful. Words of Ancestors - This gem is usually left out when Defilers speak about our abilities being hijacked. We had this before Sanctuary but of course they tweaked a thing or two and made Sanctuary bigger and better. Two things with this spell...the effect range should be doubled AT LEAST. For PvP i would say that it needs a 30 sec reduction in recast as well. OMG please this would make my DAY! Spiritual Shrine - Immune to AoE's (awesome idea Alvar ) Awesome idea! Abomination - Should be a 20% stat debuff. This whole line getting nerfed was probably the single biggest blow that Defilers got on PvP servers and maybe even for the class in general. This spell is what made up for some of the imbalances that are posted in regards to dps. Whoever designed the class initially gave us that debuff for a reason. The Debuff was taken but was never replaced with ANYTHING to make up for the hinderance that it brought to the class overall. Prior to the nerf it was a 32% Stat debuff across the board. Now its a set 59?? at M1 USELESS. With our slow cast times, i figure its a waste of time to cast at all...its not even on my hotbar /shrug The odd thing is that the spell was nerfed right when Mystics got Bolster, which strikes me as a blatant "middle finger" to our class. At minimum our debuff should have been nerfed to equal what Bolster buffs for at M1. 20% This would be great to finally make it a more useful debuff. I find my dots to have better debuffs attached to them than this line. Defiler Tree: Curseweaving - The spell should include Bane of Warding. Bane of warding is clearly a debuff yet its not included in the benefits given by curseweaving. Why??? Another thing that would rock, but I think they are trying to consider it as a potency tool and not a part of the cursing... even though in reality it is a debuff with a warding effect. Lastly our DoT's....all of them, including Pandemonium and Defile. 25% reduction in duration/dmg tic intervals. I also still think our base spell cast times could use some attention across the board. Or maybe even just for specific spells. I gave up on Pand a LONG long time ago when I realized how useless it is. I have played with it from time to time when I know I have ALL debuffs and DoTs in, and the only think left to do is melee and give it a whirl. I never permit it to finish it's cycle as you would actually lose DPS, and the healing on this is far from great so you can't rely on it. Pand is just one of those silly spells that is pointless to a defiler, and even in TSO spending 5 points on this so I can cast thru and lose 40% of the healing ability is not worth it to me in a raiding application when there are other avenues that will help me with keeping people alive. Most of whats posted has more bearing on PvP but i also think that all of it could integrate and enhance PvE as well without much of a hitch. Small changes that would make all the difference in gameplay. Marius XNagafen</blockquote>I am not a PvPer so I looked at what your suggestions where and made some tweaks from my PvE perspective. However you have shared some good ideas!!!I would like to add the horrid spell Deathward to the list as there is NO reason why we should not be able to cast this tiny ward on ourselves. (Even though someone seems to this this is a deathsave... If deathward is a deathsave... than rosie o'donnel is straight)

Finora

11-12-2008, 04:52 PM

<cite>MalkorGodchyld wrote:</cite><blockquote> Words of Ancestors - This gem is usually left out when Defilers speak about our abilities being hijacked. We had this before Sanctuary but of course they tweaked a thing or two and made Sanctuary bigger and better. Two things with this spell...the effect range should be doubled AT LEAST. For PvP i would say that it needs a 30 sec reduction in recast as well. Abomination - Should be a 20% stat debuff. This whole line getting nerfed was probably the single biggest blow that Defilers got on PvP servers and maybe even for the class in general. This spell is what made up for some of the imbalances that are posted in regards to dps. Whoever designed the class initially gave us that debuff for a reason. The Debuff was taken but was never replaced with ANYTHING to make up for the hinderance that it brought to the class overall. Prior to the nerf it was a 32% Stat debuff across the board. Now its a set 59?? at M1 USELESS. With our slow cast times, i figure its a waste of time to cast at all...its not even on my hotbar /shrug The odd thing is that the spell was nerfed right when Mystics got Bolster, which strikes me as a blatant "middle finger" to our class. At minimum our debuff should have been nerfed to equal what Bolster buffs for at M1. 20% </blockquote>Not going to touch most of those despite my disagreeing with some of the changes you propose (having a defiler and a mystic which would be affected). This bit right here you seem to have a little misinformation or misunderstanding of the abilities.Voice of Ancesters is the level 55 defiler ancient teachings spell.Sanctuary is the level 55 templar ancient teachings spell.I didn't have either defiler or templar during DOF so perhaps things have changed (a lot) in the past couple of years but since I can recall Voice/words has been a group CURE of effects that is castable while under the effects (VERY good ability IMO as a mystic first & a defiler second). I've had spell envy more than once over this spell as a mystic when comparing it to my lvl 55 AT.Sanctuary is pretty much a one shot ward against effects landing in the first place. Not a cure.Extending the range on VOA would be incredibly AWESOME though.As for the PVP aspect, I don't participate in PVP so have no comment there.(couldn't stand it I had to add more).I'll start by saying I do agree debuff numbers currently don't seem to do much (for either shaman). However...Bolster was added an expansion before defiler loathing line of debuffs were nerfed. Bolster came in KOS, Defiler nerf came in EOF(aka big combat revamp #2). Back when mystics got bolster the spell that was annoying defilers is Defile (defiler marquee spell for lvl 65 where mystics get bolster). Yes it really sucked for defilers to get their debuffs nerfed to straight numbers. But it wasn't at the same time as bolster came about. With the changes they've made to other % based spells what we'll be far more likely to see is a % debuff on the lower level spell & never seeing another upgrade (like Umbral Trap). Which I'm not entirely sure I like either.

MalkorGodchyld

11-12-2008, 07:18 PM

Your right about Sanctuary & Voice Finora, and for that misinformation i apologize. As far as understanding what the abilities do...i think i have a solid grasp of that. Assuming i was right and Sanctuary was introduced after Voice...then saying its the same skill with a slight twist is accurate. Both skills function for the same basic reason. Control effects. VoA is a one shot cure with a very small radius...Sanctuary is preventative & lasts for 30 sec. A much better skill. I wonder if Sanctuary was ever revamped or anything...i wonder what gave me the impression that it was changed or renewed in some way. My memory is foggy. But still...your right about when they were introduded. My badYour right again. We got Defile...Mystics got Bolster. I would assume that part of the reason Mystics got Bolster in the first place was to counter balance our Debuff equivalent. Which would make sense. Then...the Abomination line got hugely nerfed, yes in EOF. So again the comparison holds weight. The reason % based spells dont need upgrades is because they automatically scale. They're wonderful imo & i would welcome that change at the drop of a dime. They're also easily testable if anyone is ever skeptical about the continued effectiveness of a particular line. There's really nothing not to like about them imo. Good stuff though Finora...thks for the corrections. Marius XNagafen

Finora

11-13-2008, 12:44 PM

<cite>MalkorGodchyld wrote:</cite><blockquote>The reason % based spells dont need upgrades is because they automatically scale. They're wonderful imo & i would welcome that change at the drop of a dime. They're also easily testable if anyone is ever skeptical about the continued effectiveness of a particular line. There's really nothing not to like about them imo. Good stuff though Finora...thks for the corrections. Marius XNagafen </blockquote>I assumed you knew what they did, but I wanted to clarify incase anyone else reading didn't actually know for whatever reason. Sorry if I came across as a nit picker.As for the change I mentioned, I'd mostly don't like the idea simply because of the difficulty in obtaining masters. I also have some doubt of the quality they'd give it (likely start high then nerf the crap out of it). It would be likely be superior to the straight numbers given now though.The straight number debuffs certainly lower in value the higher level you get. I barely use them on my lvl 62 defiler. I can only imagine how bad they must be at 80 and when the cap is raised to 90 they would be absolutely worthless.

Ceolus

11-14-2008, 02:28 PM

<cite>DCarnage2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Alvar@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mystics get only 15% cast speed and they don't get reuse on their healing stance.</blockquote>Unless they have changed the Mystic's healing stance within the last two weeks on beta, then they still have +10% base heal, +15% Cast/Recast.</blockquote>They never had 15% recast, it only says in the spell description.If they do I've been hugely mistaken and I and other defilers will be extremely upset. 15% recast..VP 4 set gear..sh%^.

Rayche

11-14-2008, 03:28 PM

Definitely not thrilled about the 40% nerf in healing from Pandemonium.Mostly what kills me is the amazingly slow cast times for the Defiler. I mean, with an Illy in the group and Time Compression on me I can do just fine.The resist rates on our debuffs is just plain silly in VP however, and I don't anticipate it getting any better.I would love to see the STR line adjusted for spell haste, or maybe have the option for spell or melee haste. (Maybe an AA that changes it, like Brawlers have to change their aggro buff into a deaggro buff.)Deathward, not feeling it. Ancestral Sentry was definitely a win for Mystics. I loved that ability before I betrayed.Here's an idea, make deathward be a buff you place on the tank so that it triggers when we cast our death prevention?

DCarnage2

11-17-2008, 08:07 PM

Expansion goes live tomarrow with no changes to AAs...R.I.P. Defiler Class

flowercivicsi

11-24-2008, 01:28 PM

/sigh... we are a forgotten class, and it's obvious the developers could care less about our suggestions or comments. Their lack of response to their community speaks volumes.

Mew

11-24-2008, 02:41 PM

The OP wrote:"This aside from the fact that we are GREATLY hampered by cast times across the board...NO other healer class can say the same and with the upcoming changes, Mystics cant even say the same. They get the option of fast cast dmg dealing and our options remain empty."You think your cast times are slow? Try an Inquisitor. Reactive heals don't fire half the time. True, Inquisitors can do some serious melee damage with the right AA set up (takes about 48 AA's to do it). But that means getting into melee range with the resulting increase in hazards. The best an Inquisitor can get for cast time bolstering from AA's is about 12%. So, although I agree with your sentiments don't feel alone with your feelings of class inadequacy. The expansion didn't help the Inquis class either.

Rayche

11-24-2008, 08:36 PM

Yes, from what I understand from speaking with some Inquisitor friends both classes share a fair degree of problems and concerns.Whether they get looked into soon is another story.It takes months to get a class balanced, but it would be nice to see movement in that direction for us.

Ceolus

11-26-2008, 01:51 PM

Ungeared and with proper AAs and TSO stances (leaving out druids as they're SUPPOSED to be the fast healers):Mystic: 15% Faster beneficialsTemplar: 15.4% faster casting; single target reactive down half a second (TSO); 50% faster casting every 5 minutes for 24 seconds (though it is groupwide, I can't rely on having a templar in my group all the time nor can I toggle it when I'm personally needing it most)Inquisitor: 15% Faster heals (TSO); 15.4% faster casting; 50% faster casting every 5 minutes for 24 secondsDefiler: 0%I've noticed that just 10% takes, for example, a 5 second group ward down to around 4.5 and it makes a noticeable difference.Just saying..he's right, we're the only healers not given any choice to increase our casting speed via AA trees. It didn't bother me as much when Mystics were also given 0% (pre-TSO), but now we've been left behind all the other "slow cast" healers, even our shaman counterpart. How did this happen?

Rayche

11-26-2008, 03:28 PM

Yeah, I was going through the trees last night and saw that Inquisitor, Templar AND Mystic all get faster beneficial AA's now... that's huge... ly dissapointing for Defilers.

Tandy

11-27-2008, 10:49 AM

I enjoy playing my defiler, and love the thrill of raiding. With that said...Defilers really do need some changes. Deathward is and always has been the biggest joke. I have this image in my head of a dev snickering and saying to the dev beside him "Just wait till you see what I did to defilers with their level 80 spell. ROFLMAO!!1!!111!" Anyone who thinks that spell is useful for its 'intended purpose' really needs to sit down and play a defiler in a raid setting for 2 or 3 hours, shoot get a good heroic group where your solo healing and see then. That is all it will take to show you how useless it is. PLEASE for the love of the gods sit down and play thru 1 raid as the MT defiler. Nearly all of our gripes would be solved if this happens, from the uselessness of Deathward to the cast time/recast time envy to the templars having wards. There is really no logical rational person who plays a raiding Defiler and who can say in good faith that any of the devs have. Granted we are a good MT healer, but we end up on the short end of the stick on a lot of certain things. Maybe changing things with us would make us overpowered, but giving our abilities to other classses AND making them better isnt a step in the right direction either. Wards should always stay with shaman, regens always with druids and reactives always with clerics. Balance around that and you will avoid the feeling that Templars are the dark elf assassins of the healers (which apparently they really are but no one wants to admit to). Templars having a better ward than me really rubs me the wrong way, since with that one spell they got the golden apple of healer level 80 spells and we got the smelly [Removed for Content].I wont even go into VP set bonuses, since I voiced my thought on that in beta and pretty much assumed whoever made those bonuses was either unaware who defilers were and thought we were a druid of some kind. I really love that I can get extra dmg to my one DoT. It will help my DPS SO MUCH on those VP dragons. Cause everyone knows in VP all you care about as a defiler is your DoTs ticking as hard as they possibly can.

ChrissyFaey

11-30-2008, 06:00 AM

It does not feel like the shaman AA's are up to par to any of the other healer archtypes at the moment. We seem to have received very little attention because wards count first and therefore are seen by the parse as overpowered... When Templars, for example, lend 12 percent stone-skin, avoidance, and so forth. I feel like I've received a great many DPS AA's and minor buff enhancements that I will put points into because they're slightly better than not placing them anywhere. I really seem to be having the most fun with Littany of Combat... when I'd much rather be a healer. ;/Anyhow, it honestly feels like Kindred Restoration is broken. It hardly ever triggers - I'm seeing about 1000 Carrion Warding hits per 30 Kindred Restoration hits. It's been factoring to be less than one percent of my heals in most situations when it looked to be the most promising of the shaman AA's.

Sedenten

12-01-2008, 05:34 PM

<cite>Ainaree@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anyhow, it honestly feels like Kindred Restoration is broken. It hardly ever triggers - I'm seeing about 1000 Carrion Warding hits per 30 Kindred Restoration hits. It's been factoring to be less than one percent of my heals in most situations when it looked to be the most promising of the shaman AA's. </blockquote>It's hard to test (hence why this didn't show up in beta so much), but from what I can tell Kindred Restoration simply fires when the group ward wears off and the heal fires BEFORE any further damage is applied. So the only time that it would heal for anything is if for some reason group ward is up after the group has already been damaged and then the ward absorbs it's maximum amount before the group has been healed of the previous damage. Generally most shaman are going to get the group ward up then follow with group heal to top off the group (or vice versa depending on the situation). With mythical and other raid gear this situation does not occur very often for a defiler. I cannot speak for the mystic community but I have a feeling the results would be similar.In zones where I am solo healing and the group is taking heavy damage I've had Kindred Restoration heal for less than 1% of my total healing (7 heals attributed to it in over 3 hours of logs) and in some cases 0%.The way this ability should work (at least I feel) is that it should be a one shot group reactive and fire on any damage immediately following the ward dropping. That's the way I think a lot of shaman thought this ability would be working.

Ceolus

12-02-2008, 01:17 AM

I heard that kindred restoration is supposed to trigger every time the group ward gets completely hit off, like a reactive, and that someone noticed it doesn't trigger if they happen to be casting a spell at the same time for no apparent reason and that is should be /bugged. Apparently some of their spells would stop it from triggering but some would let it through.If this isn't a bug, and if kindred restoration isn't supposed to work this way it'd be nice for a dev to clarify what it really does because we all seem to have different ideas.