Crafting Software [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Chazar

11-05-2008, 04:33 PM

IMO, this is a real problem....I have run into a number of players in the past year plus who use crafting software to craft. I have always stayed away from using it myself, as it is "against the rules."It gives a significant advantage to crafters who can play on one account, or do something non EQish, while there crafter(s) churn out hundreds of items. They then sell the items, with the need only to take into account the cost of the crafting, completely ignoring the time factor.This makes it really hard for those of us who follow the rules. Items that are being priced small amounts of coin above the cost to make, because the competing crafters don't need to take time into account really discourages those who follow "the rules" from crafting at all. Quite simply, on most items, I can make more money adventuring, by far, then I can by crafting (for the same amount of time put in).SOE, please either rigidly enforce your rules against macro crafting/ 3rd party software, or else tell us it is ok to use them to craft.

Tinrae

11-05-2008, 05:10 PM

Recently I was in a crafting instance making stacks of food/drink on my provi. At my stove was a 20ish character still in level 1 armor, busy crafting as well. While crafting I saw him ding a level, so just to be nice typed in /say "Grats!". No response. Okay, no biggie. Kept crafting for another 20 or so mins. Weirdly, without moving a bit, the character began casting the same spell at perfect intervals. This went on for about ten minutes before I finally sent a /tell and asked why he was casting at the stove (the spell effects were irritating me, hehe). The character immediately stopped casting and stood still, with no response for five minutes. I finally get a reply that he was practicing his skills and then the toon logged out fast.Now the situation looked pretty suspicious, but for all I know maybe he really was randomly deciding to practice skillups without moving a bit from grinding tradeskills, and was a very slow typer when I /tell'd him. <shrug> He could have been using a bot program or macro, but without seeing his actual PC I have no idea for sure. This is a tricky issue, because it's very hard to 'prove' that someone is using a 3rd party software.

LadyGalasya

11-05-2008, 05:13 PM

<cite>Chazar wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO, this is a real problem....I have run into a number of players in the past year plus who use crafting software to craft. I have always stayed away from using it myself, as it is "against the rules."It gives a significant advantage to crafters who can play on one account, or do something non EQish, while there crafter(s) churn out hundreds of items. They then sell the items, with the need only to take into account the cost of the crafting, completely ignoring the time factor.This makes it really hard for those of us who follow the rules. Items that are being priced small amounts of coin above the cost to make, because the competing crafters don't need to take time into account really discourages those who follow "the rules" from crafting at all. Quite simply, on most items, I can make more money adventuring, by far, then I can by crafting (for the same amount of time put in).SOE, please either rigidly enforce your rules against macro crafting/ 3rd party software, or else tell us it is ok to use them to craft.</blockquote>The problem with them "enforcing" their policy is that it is nearly impossible for them to prove you use the software without them installing a monitoring program with the EQ2 software. I for one, would cancel my subscription if they did that, tis none of their business what I run on my computer (and before you ask no I dont use a 3rd party program). I would just find it a violation of my privacy.

Cele

11-05-2008, 05:14 PM

TBH, most folks who use software to craft these days do so in the privacy of their own homes, with visitors locked out.A year or so ago, one of my toons was in a guild where many of them had crafting software. I remember someone asking me once why I was crafting while online and didnt I know about ******, a program that would craft for me while I slept.Several guildies then jumped into chat to tell me all about how wonderful this program was, how they did it from home so other players wouldn't notice, blah blah blah....I have never hit the "remove from guild" button so fast in my life!

Calthine

11-05-2008, 05:22 PM

If you suspect someone of botting, /report them. The GM's will look into it.

Elorah

11-05-2008, 05:46 PM

I have reported many Crafters that used programs.. They still play and they still craft. Some STILL use whatever prograns they did before <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Nimbrithil

11-05-2008, 06:21 PM

To the tells thing,,,I turn off every chat channel except guild when Im crafting. Every one of us knows what its like to get pestered while grinding something. My armorer was the WORST. Even turning off most chat channels didn't work and you couldn't get writs any place but the tradeskills zones then.

Valdaglerion

11-05-2008, 07:10 PM

A word about using the /report feature - be judicious with it.If you cant prove someone is botting dont report it. It sucks completely to have your game play disrupted by a GM and teh subsequent conversation to prove you are a person because someone thinks you are too good to be a human doing it.

Chazar

11-05-2008, 07:23 PM

This post isn't about suspecting that people use the software, it is about the fact that I have come across several people i know in various guilds that definitely use it, and recommend different softwares to each other. I'm not naive enough to think that the problem is limited to these few people i know- it is clearly a pervasive issue in EQ2.That being said, I realize that there are challenges to enforcing the rule that SOE has regarding using 3rd party software. My point is this: If they are not able or willing to enforce the rule rigorously, they need to allow it. Not doing so is only penalizing the people who follow the rules, the rule breakers are being rewarded for violating the rules by having less competition.

Tinrae

11-05-2008, 07:27 PM

<cite>Nimbrithil wrote:</cite><blockquote>To the tells thing,,,I turn off every chat channel except guild when Im crafting. Every one of us knows what its like to get pestered while grinding something. My armorer was the WORST. Even turning off most chat channels didn't work and you couldn't get writs any place but the tradeskills zones then.</blockquote>In my scenario, the toon was not grinding writs; it would have been obvious if it he'd been doing writs and I never would have taken notice of the peculiar character. He was straight crafting (between crafts pausing exactly 5 seconds), then straight casting at the same intervals. I understand about avoiding chatter during writs, but this guy certainly wasn't doing those.I dunno, I have a max level provi so I know what it's like to sit for long periods of time and craft mounds of food/drink for myself and friends (and personally I welcome chat distractions for that!)

Tinrae

11-05-2008, 07:37 PM

<cite>Chazar wrote:</cite><blockquote>This post isn't about suspecting that people use the software, it is about the fact that I have come across several people i know in various guilds that definitely use it, and recommend different softwares to each other. I'm not naive enough to think that the problem is limited to these few people i know- it is clearly a pervasive issue in EQ2.That being said, I realize that there are challenges to enforcing the rule that SOE has regarding using 3rd party software. My point is this: If they are not able or willing to enforce the rule rigorously, they need to allow it. Not doing so is only penalizing the people who follow the rules, the rule breakers are being rewarded for violating the rules by having less competition.</blockquote>I understand your point and agree with the frustration. It's a problem in every game, and some game companies are more diligent in the witchhunt than others. I don't see SOE ever allowing 3rd party program usage carte blanche however, even if they do in fact take a passive role in fighting them by waiting on player-initiated reporting.If you have proof that those people are using it (chat logs recommending it to others, etc) why not report it? No it doesn't solve the worldwide issue of botters, but at least it takes a few off your server.

Valdaglerion

11-05-2008, 08:08 PM

<cite>Chazar wrote:</cite><blockquote>This post isn't about suspecting that people use the software, it is about the fact that I have come across several people i know in various guilds that definitely use it, and recommend different softwares to each other. I'm not naive enough to think that the problem is limited to these few people i know- it is clearly a pervasive issue in EQ2.That being said, I realize that there are challenges to enforcing the rule that SOE has regarding using 3rd party software. My point is this: If they are not able or willing to enforce the rule rigorously, they need to allow it. Not doing so is only penalizing the people who follow the rules, the rule breakers are being rewarded for violating the rules by having less competition.</blockquote>If you know of specific people then by all means provide their names and your chat logs with that information to the GM's, they will take the appropriate action. Suggesting the rules are to be changed is too far out there sorry.

Chazar

11-05-2008, 08:23 PM

Yes, I pay my 15 dollars a month so I can have the privelege of turning in people I raid with, screw that.....I'm not going to police their game for them, they need to resolve this problem.

Cele

11-05-2008, 08:38 PM

<cite>Chazar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, I pay my 15 dollars a month so I can have the privelege of turning in people I raid with, screw that.....I'm not going to police their game for them, they need to resolve this problem.</blockquote>So...are these folks in your guild then? And you chose to stay in said guild?

Felshades

11-05-2008, 09:20 PM

they wont police their game if they dont know about it.otoh, blizzard uses a monitoring program built into the game and has successfully sued the guy that wrong mmoglider, and won. they dont care what you're running unless what you are running in RAM affects THEIR PROGRAM. thats what they look for.. something altering THEIR SOFTWARE in your RAM.glider worked by loading a second copy of the software into your ram and screwing with it.. just about every person i know of that ive reported in world of warcraft for hacking and botting has been found and banned. a friend of mine that was writing a bot to fish for him got caught and every account ever logged into his computer was banned as well. his sister and brother in laws accounts were shut down.they dont tolerate cheating, but without a monitoring program there is no way for them to know that its going on unless you report them.dont want to report them, then it wont get solved. that simple.

Rijacki

11-05-2008, 09:31 PM

<cite>Chazar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, I pay my 15 dollars a month so I can have the privelege of turning in people I raid with, screw that.....I'm not going to police their game for them, they need to resolve this problem.</blockquote>So basically your posting here was to look for some sort of justification for them or you cheating (all in the name of "well everyone else is so how else can I be 'competative'")?

Chazar

11-05-2008, 10:04 PM

Raise your hands if you think me reporting every single person I've ever known who bot crafts will make any difference......first of all, they wouldnt have hard proof, and as you say, they dont monitor....2nd of all, if they got every person I've ever known, there are hundreds of others on my server who still do it.....As far as people in my guild doing it, it is pretty much every guild I've been in....this crafting software thing is rampant...And yes, I absolutely do feel that it should be allowed If they arent going to enforce their own rules....and no, expecting people to report people for them is not enforcing their rules.....everyone who follows the rules is getting screwed by this...there is no point in crafting when I cant compete....

Cele

11-05-2008, 10:19 PM

<cite>Chazar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Raise your hands if you think me reporting every single person I've ever known who bot crafts will make any difference......first of all, they wouldnt have hard proof, and as you say, they dont monitor....2nd of all, if they got every person I've ever known, there are hundreds of others on my server who still do it.....As far as people in my guild doing it, it is pretty much every guild I've been in....this crafting software thing is rampant...And yes, I absolutely do feel that it should be allowed If they arent going to enforce their own rules....and no, expecting people to report people for them is not enforcing their rules.....everyone who follows the rules is getting screwed by this...there is no point in crafting when I cant compete....</blockquote>Ummm...so you came here to post this...why?? To ask that third party cheat programs be permitted??

Chazar

11-05-2008, 10:52 PM

I posted here to say that they need to police and enforce their own rules, or they need to take them away...if a rule is unenforced, it shouldnt exist......

Calthine

11-05-2008, 11:07 PM

The problem is that it's extremely hard to prove. They pretty much have to do something damning while a GM is watching. But they DO check all those /reports, and they DO ban people for botting.

Lilj

11-05-2008, 11:23 PM

<cite>Celena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chazar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, I pay my 15 dollars a month so I can have the privelege of turning in people I raid with, screw that.....I'm not going to police their game for them, they need to resolve this problem.</blockquote>So...are these folks in your guild then? And you chose to stay in said guild?</blockquote>What good does it do to leave the guild if he doesn't report them?Which reminds me, did you report the people in the guild you were in, or did you just leave and let them continue to bot?

SilkenKidden

11-06-2008, 12:29 AM

I've never seen anyone using software that I could tell. It isn't legal and it shouldn't be made legal. I've been in a number of guilds and never heard anyone saying they used this software. I'm sure my current guild would very much disapprove of any of us breaking the rules in the Guild House. Luckily, it isn't a problem on my server.

Amphibia

11-06-2008, 03:16 AM

I agree with Silken, to allow this would be a huge mistake. Not only massively unfair to those who've already grinded up their crafters, but I think it would be also inviting all kinds of trouble. Imagine people going off to get those programs, many of them falling into nice little traps with trojans and other nasty things made by hackers, then complaining to GM's about stolen passwords etc.... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

Seidhkona

11-06-2008, 10:08 AM

Honestly, we used to see a lot more of this. Nowadays I expect the botters with a brain cell or two are botting in a house with locked doors rather than smack dab in the middle of everything where you can see them.You can report the ones you see and suspect. But it barely makes a dent in the others doing it. Much like plat buyers - that's always gonna happen.Report it if you must, but don't stress over it. It's just one of those endemic annoyances in the game.

Zehl_Ice-Fire

11-06-2008, 11:43 AM

<cite>LadyGalasya wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem with them "enforcing" their policy is that it is nearly impossible for them to prove you use the software without them installing a monitoring program with the EQ2 software. I for one, would cancel my subscription if they did that, tis none of their business what I run on my computer (and before you ask no I dont use a 3rd party program). I would just find it a violation of my privacy.</blockquote>It's not legal to do that either. Sony had a huge lawsuit years ago about this, I think involving SWG, so you don't have to worry about this happening.

ashen1973

11-06-2008, 03:21 PM

<cite>Zehl_Ice-Fire wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LadyGalasya wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem with them "enforcing" their policy is that it is nearly impossible for them to prove you use the software without them installing a monitoring program with the EQ2 software. I for one, would cancel my subscription if they did that, tis none of their business what I run on my computer (and before you ask no I dont use a 3rd party program). I would just find it a violation of my privacy.</blockquote>It's not legal to do that either. Sony had a huge lawsuit years ago about this, I think involving SWG, so you don't have to worry about this happening.</blockquote>There is nothing illegal about this kind of monitoring software, WoW has this exact kind of thing (as do many online FPS etc.. games, such as the Punkbuster software). I played SWG from launch and never heard of any SOE title using such monitoring software.I would be in the camp that cancels my accounts the minute any sort of snooper software is used by SOE though, and I have had multiple accounts running since the launch of SWG.I use multiple software applications to ensure that what I do on my computer stays private so I would never invite snooper software willingly.I dont do anything on my computer to be ashamed of (including using bot software) and am so sure of the cleanliness of my computer that I let my young children use it.But i do defend my right to privacy strongly.In anycase, within days of any snooper software being introduced the hackers would find a way around it.Botting is something that happens in every online game. Its something I am afraid we will all have to learn to live with.Im not completely convinced that SOE (and all other mmo companies) do everything thay can to weed out the botters, but even if they did, it must be remarkably difficult to prove that someone is botting.We must also be very carefull when it comes to pointing fingers and accusing others of botting. Just because you think someone is botting as they do not conform to your view of 'attended play' doesnt mean they are.To me, the art in crafting really comes to play when you hit level 80. Just having the ability to craft every recipe is no longer a ticket to profit. Crafting bots dont help a player learn what to bother with making and what to leave off the broker.A bigger problem , I believe anyway, is the Broker bots. This is software that can be set to constantly browse the broker and purchase set items and re-sell them. This IS a way of making coin completely AFK. And , unless the software is a lot more complex than I imagine it is, surely there must be patterns to how they operate that can be picked up on.I suspect several characters in my server of using this practice, these characters would be parked at a broker 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I tested my suspicions by placing certain items up for sale at certain prices. There was a definate cut-off point where the item would be purchased at and within a few seconds, be back on the broker at a higher price. Tells are never responded to or any movement on the part of the suspected botter.Since the advent of Guild Halls, these same characters have now retreated behind the closed doors, but are still there 24 hours a day.I have NOT reported these players, there is a chance I am completely wrong and they are actively at the keyboard, although I strongly suspect not. But surely SOE would have more robust methids of monitoring this activity

Calthine

11-06-2008, 03:34 PM

<cite>Kalyyn@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have NOT reported these players, there is a chance I am completely wrong and they are actively at the keyboard, although I strongly suspect not. But surely SOE would have more robust methids of monitoring this activity</blockquote>Report them anyway. No one will ever know you did. SOE errors on the side of caution rather than banning legitimate players.

ashen1973

11-06-2008, 03:49 PM

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kalyyn@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have NOT reported these players, there is a chance I am completely wrong and they are actively at the keyboard, although I strongly suspect not. But surely SOE would have more robust methids of monitoring this activity</blockquote>Report them anyway. No one will ever know you did. SOE errors on the side of caution rather than banning legitimate players.</blockquote>A couple of years back I would have reported every suspicion I had, but several things have happened since then to change my opinion.Back before KoS farmer bot-groups where a huge problem in PoF, I sent in many reports, I never once saw any evidence of action beeing taken. The same groups would still be farming there day after day, and they where so obviously botting. ( I know this goes against what I said about being wrong with suspicions, but they used to be out-right blatant)After KoS the same botting would take place up in the Barren Sky, again, reports would achieve nothing.I then got accused of botting myself, even having a GM contact me and ask what I was doing, when I was quite happily crafting away.I was accused again, by a player in tells, and this was the final straw. This accusation came the day RoK went live. I was grinding away at writs and getting through the levels quickly. There where several of us in the TS instance, of various classes, doing the same thing and there was alot of fun banter, one of the best days I have had at the crafting tables until the accusing tells came in.My accusers reasons for thinking I was botting, he/she was grinding the same prof as me and their logic was that because I was gaining levels far faster than they where, I must be botting in some way!All this added up to me feeling that was it worth potentially upsetting an innocent person by reporting them, when the chances are, even if they WHERE guilty, nothing would be done??

Nuhus

11-06-2008, 03:52 PM

/report just logs text activity doesn't it? I've always used /petition to report them.

Zehl_Ice-Fire

11-06-2008, 03:55 PM

ashen1973

11-06-2008, 03:56 PM

<cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote>/report just logs text activity doesn't it? I've always used /petition to report them.</blockquote>yes, /report doe sjust log the text activity. If you want to bring someone to the GM's attention you need to /report and /petition, referencing that you did /report in the petition.

ashen1973

11-06-2008, 04:06 PM

<cite>Zehl_Ice-Fire wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am going to find an article on that lawsuit (nothing in a fast google but I don't know what I'm really looking for), it was SOME Sony online game (my bf told me about it who used to play SWG , thats why I thought it may have been SWG) and they will never even think of touching our computers again after that.</blockquote>I do remember, early in SWG, when a forum post was made (by a player) about botting and the potential to use software such as Blizzard use to scan computers. There was a lot of posts from other players and many of the 'forum lawyers' (in some bizarre coincidence, it turns out that 75% of the SWG forum users where qualified internet lawyers <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) threatened to raise lawsuits if it ever happened. But I dont remember SOE ever mentioning that they where thinking of using such software (i'm not saying im 100% sure they never did tpy with the idea, I just dont remember it).But, as I said, Blizzard use software which scans your computer everytime you login to WoW, so there is no legal reason for a company not to use it.as a side note, botting in SWG was a huge problem, and completely within the games rules. Players could create re-cursive macro's, using the ingame systems, that would kill and loot spawns to level or to sell the loot.It got to a point where several of the prime locations would have a line of 6 or more botters all attempting to bot the same location.There where even locations were botters could level there characters and by exploiting positions where no NPC's or players could get line-of-sight on them, be completely safe. Even these actions went unpenalised.So I guess we dont have it that bad here.

Jesdyr

11-06-2008, 04:21 PM

<cite>Felshades wrote:</cite><blockquote>tthey dont care what you're running unless what you are running in RAM affects THEIR PROGRAM. thats what they look for.. something altering THEIR SOFTWARE in your RAM.</blockquote>To bot crafting you dont need to do all that. To make a crafting bot all you need is a parser and a macro. Actually you can get by with just a macro but it would not be as efficient and may break here and there.SoE seems to only care that you are behind the screen and can respond to a GM should they contact you. It is the unattended part that gets people banned. It is the same as pet classes going afk ontop of a spawn point and letting their pet kill for them while they are sleeping. No software required but it is unattended play and can get you banned.If you want to know if something you are doing (or someone else is doing) breaks to EULA, send a petition and you will get your answer.

dartie

11-06-2008, 04:57 PM

<cite>Kalyyn@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zehl_Ice-Fire wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am going to find an article on that lawsuit (nothing in a fast google but I don't know what I'm really looking for), it was SOME Sony online game (my bf told me about it who used to play SWG , thats why I thought it may have been SWG) and they will never even think of touching our computers again after that.</blockquote>I do remember, early in SWG, when a forum post was made (by a player) about botting and the potential to use software such as Blizzard use to scan computers. There was a lot of posts from other players and many of the 'forum lawyers' (in some bizarre coincidence, it turns out that 75% of the SWG forum users where qualified internet lawyers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />) threatened to raise lawsuits if it ever happened. But I dont remember SOE ever mentioning that they where thinking of using such software (i'm not saying im 100% sure they never did tpy with the idea, I just dont remember it).But, as I said, Blizzard use software which scans your computer everytime you login to WoW, so there is no legal reason for a company not to use it.as a side note, botting in SWG was a huge problem, and completely within the games rules. Players could create re-cursive macro's, using the ingame systems, that would kill and loot spawns to level or to sell the loot.It got to a point where several of the prime locations would have a line of 6 or more botters all attempting to bot the same location.There where even locations were botters could level there characters and by exploiting positions where no NPC's or players could get line-of-sight on them, be completely safe. Even these actions went unpenalised.So I guess we dont have it that bad here.</blockquote>ON SOFTWARE DETECTIONMy impression is that those of us who play on Bazaar and buy/sell via LiveGamer all had to accept a provision that LG or SOE (not sure which company) could monitor our computers for banned software.Can anyone who uses LG more seriously than I do confirm/remember this?I wouldn't know how to tell if LG has scanned my computer files, but I do feel better about playing on the Bazaar because I think it's easier for SOE to find and eliminate botters via this method than via reports from suspicious players.ON REPORTINGIf you have reported someone for botting in a public space since guildhalls were introduced, my guess is that you are too suspicious. I just can't imagine anyone willing to use a bot system but NOT willing to use the harvest depot. Any botter who is NOT operating behind the closed doors of a guild hall is too stupid to pose a serious threat to the economy of Norrath. Therefore, in my opinion, those who think that reporting suspicious activity is the key to preventing cheating are, in my mind, simply kidding themselves. I would much rather have SOE scan everyone's machine for forbidden software than rely on tattling (though I am not knowledgeable enough about software scanning or privacy issues to say whether my own position is realistic).TO THE OPI just want you to know that I think you are making a reasonable request. Those who think that legalizing botting goes too far have missed your very reasonable point. If SOE isn't going to take reasonable actions to ban crafting bots, then they shouldn't penalize the people who try to be good citizens by imposing rules that bad citizens simply break without consequences. I don't want botting legalized. I want botters gone.But if SOE isn't willing to do anything about the botters, let everyone else do it.Telling me to report botters for suspicious behavior is a tremendously unsatisfying response because there is no reason to suspect that serious botters are observed by anyone.P.S. to the OPI really don't think craft bots are as significant a force in the economy as people make out. My crafters make way more plat than I can spend not because they churn out tremendous quantities of items, but because I have gotten to be fairly good at working the market (putting the right things up for sale at the right time and putting other things up in response to shifting market conditions). Although I understand your concern about botting, I think it is more exaggerated than it should be. I don't believe any program is sufficiently flexible and sophisticated to keep up with a human mind that is genuinely engaged in "working the broker."

Bloodfa

11-06-2008, 05:01 PM

If they were to implement scanning software, any thought of a lawsuit (really, suing over a game?) goes out the window as soon as you click that "Agree" button. The one that references the Terms of Service. Not to mention that you are free to cancel your agreement with them, just as they are free to terminate your agreement with them. There's nothing forcing you to play the game if they were to add in an application. Likewise, it is not one of your Constitutional rights to play a game. They don't have to take your money and let you play there. Punkbuster for EQ2, I'd love to see it. Of course a third of the highly titled players on Nagafen would find themselves unable to log in, but I'd be very, very amused to see it implemented. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Cele

11-06-2008, 06:26 PM

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Celena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chazar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, I pay my 15 dollars a month so I can have the privelege of turning in people I raid with, screw that.....I'm not going to police their game for them, they need to resolve this problem.</blockquote>So...are these folks in your guild then? And you chose to stay in said guild?</blockquote>What good does it do to leave the guild if he doesn't report them?Which reminds me, did you report the people in the guild you were in, or did you just leave and let them continue to bot?</blockquote>1) I never told him not to report them. Oh...and he should /petition too, not just /report.2) yes, I did, thanx for asking

Calthine

11-06-2008, 06:37 PM

<cite>dartie wrote:</cite><blockquote>Telling me to report botters for suspicious behavior is a tremendously unsatisfying response because there is no reason to suspect that serious botters are observed by anyone.</blockquote>Having met and talked to some GM's, I can tell you you're mistaken. And yeah, I forgot, /report always works better with a /petition. /report really only works if they say "Hey, you should try this new crafting bot sofware I got."

Lilj

11-06-2008, 06:50 PM

<cite>Celena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Celena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chazar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, I pay my 15 dollars a month so I can have the privelege of turning in people I raid with, screw that.....I'm not going to police their game for them, they need to resolve this problem.</blockquote>So...are these folks in your guild then? And you chose to stay in said guild?</blockquote>What good does it do to leave the guild if he doesn't report them?Which reminds me, did you report the people in the guild you were in, or did you just leave and let them continue to bot?</blockquote>1) I never told him not to report them. Oh...and he should /petition too, not just /report.2) yes, I did, thanx for asking</blockquote>Good to hear <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Gipper

11-06-2008, 07:44 PM

I hesitate to report folks for botting and farming for one reason. Once, one of my toons was doing the writs in sinking sands killing the sandscrawlers. There was a wizard unguilded with a wierd name and really crappy equipment repeatedly clearing the area and snagging my mobs from combat. I did the /report and /petition thing and left the area. Emails from the Gm assured me that the problem was being looked at and MY toon was being investigated for farming. It scared me to death because I love this game and can't bear the thought of a suspension or banning. Maybe my petition wasn't clear, I dunno. So now, when the little guys are in Jarsath Wastes snatching the nodes around the fishmen I am killing, I just bite my tongue and suffer in silence. I find the current petition method very cumbersome and hard to use. Maybe they made it like that to cut down on petitions they have to answer? It takes a whole lot for me to go that route.

dartie

11-06-2008, 08:57 PM

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dartie wrote:</cite><blockquote>Telling me to report botters for suspicious behavior is a tremendously unsatisfying response because there is no reason to suspect that serious botters are observed by anyone.</blockquote>Having met and talked to some GM's, I can tell you you're mistaken. </blockquote>I don't mean to suggest that it never worked. Now that we have guild halls, however, I see no reason to believe that a botter would do his botting in public. Even if you don't care about being seen, you need to be in a guild hall to use a harvest depot, and I can't see why anyone (legit or botter) would deprive themselves of this asset. If your GM friends are telling you that people are still botting in public areas and being reported by other players, you're welcome to believe them. I would have to talk to them myself and have some serious questions answered before I would be inclined to share your belief.

Spyderbite

11-06-2008, 11:01 PM

<cite>Elorah wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have reported many Crafters that used programs.. They still play and they still craft. Some STILL use whatever prograns they did before <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>This will continue to be the case unless SOE decides to impliment a sniffer program. Its really the only way detect and block people from logging and/or staying logged in while 3rd party programs are running and interacting with the data stream. Unfortunately, many people believe these programs are intrusive, thus most games do not take advantage of them. The tin foil hat is truly mightier than the sword. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

greenmantle

11-06-2008, 11:11 PM

<cite>Gipper@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hesitate to report folks for botting and farming for one reason. Once, one of my toons was doing the writs in sinking sands killing the sandscrawlers. There was a wizard unguilded with a wierd name and really crappy equipment repeatedly clearing the area and snagging my mobs from combat. I did the /report and /petition thing and left the area. Emails from the Gm assured me that the problem was being looked at and MY toon was being investigated for farming. It scared me to death because I love this game and can't bear the thought of a suspension or banning. Maybe my petition wasn't clear, I dunno. So now, when the little guys are in Jarsath Wastes snatching the nodes around the fishmen I am killing, I just bite my tongue and suffer in silence. I find the current petition method very cumbersome and hard to use. Maybe they made it like that to cut down on petitions they have to answer? It takes a whole lot for me to go that route.</blockquote>QFE i find the petition system a pita as well i only use it now when some one is being offensive.

Seidhkona

11-06-2008, 11:24 PM

My theory is that it's like bad names. It has to be awful before I will spend 20 minutes fighting with a /petition to report a bad name. On the other hand, my guild keeps <a href="http://fightpub.yuku.com/topic/512">a page where we ridicule stupid names</a>, and that turns out to be much more satisfying in the long run.

Calthine

11-07-2008, 03:25 AM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elorah wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have reported many Crafters that used programs.. They still play and they still craft. Some STILL use whatever prograns they did before <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>This will continue to be the case unless SOE decides to impliment a sniffer program. Its really the only way detect and block people from logging and/or staying logged in while 3rd party programs are running and interacting with the data stream. Unfortunately, many people believe these programs are intrusive, thus most games do not take advantage of them. The tin foil hat is truly mightier than the sword. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I haven't read the whole thing lately, but used to be the EULA (wait, it has a new abbreviation, doesn't it) specifically excluded them using a sniffer. I recall the convos on the Olde Forums.

Lodrelhai

11-07-2008, 04:48 AM

I think the monitoring software you might be thinking of was actually on music CDs released by Sony BMG in 2005. They had protection software on them which would auto-install itself on a comp if you tried to play or rip the CD onto it - and left some fairly nasty security holes in your computer. After people figured out what the heck was happening, a removal program was offered, which ended up putting even bigger holes in your comp's security than the original monitoring software. <a href="http://www.internetnews.com/security/article.php/3564711">Here's</a> an article on it, and Freedom to Tinker wrote <a href="http://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/felten/sonybmg-protection-spyware">several articles</a> about what the risks of the software were and how it might be dealt with.It was an ugly fiasco, I wrote about it in my LJ and a few forums I was active in at the time.

SilkenKidden

11-07-2008, 07:16 AM

I would object to any software not necessary to game play being run on my computer. My system is fairly old, but good enough so far. I don't want to be forced to upgrade my whole system because the game is attempting to track botters. I said before, I have never seen evidence of a botter on my server. I've never suspected the game economy would be working more to my advantage if some activities were curtailed. I have seen farmers in a few instance zones, and they are very annoying and I have reported them when they stole a kill from me, but I'm sure there were humans operating that group. Can any of you detail exactly what is the result of people using crafting software? I have a feeling people used to use these to make WORTs back in the days, but is there really a market for anything a bot does do now? Would anyone want to make hundreds of copies of a pristne handcrafterd whatsit? Bags and crates maybe.

Nimeesha

11-07-2008, 10:26 AM

<cite>Silken@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can any of you detail exactly what is the result of people using crafting software? I have a feeling people used to use these to make WORTs back in the days, but is there really a market for anything a bot does do now? Would anyone want to make hundreds of copies of a pristne handcrafterd whatsit? Bags and crates maybe.</blockquote>I think the main reason for anyone to use a crafting bot would be to level their crafter while they slept or did something else instead.

Jesdyr

11-07-2008, 11:21 AM

<cite>Nimeesha@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the main reason for anyone to use a crafting bot would be to level their crafter while they slept or did something else instead.</blockquote>LevelingFarming FactionFarming SPFarming plat (you can make money off rushorders if you can get the mats cheap enough)Flooding the market with items (feed it a list and away it goes).and .. I am sure there are people out there that just do it because they can.

Rijacki

11-07-2008, 11:56 AM

<cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nimeesha@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the main reason for anyone to use a crafting bot would be to level their crafter while they slept or did something else instead.</blockquote>LevelingFarming FactionFarming SPFarming plat (you can make money off rushorders if you can get the mats cheap enough)Flooding the market with items (feed it a list and away it goes).and .. I am sure there are people out there that just do it because they can.</blockquote>The reason we have our current writ system is to make botting it harder. No, not impossible, but more complicated. Right now, about the only reason I think people bot crafting is for leveling or skilling up (tinkering) because those are the only two easy scripting things. The consumables would likely be the only crafted items worth flooding as well (in part because they stack).Frankly, I think there is a lot less tradeskill botting now than in the first two years of the game.I also think, every time one of these threads pop up, it's only the OP wanting justification for using the app, saying it's okay for a friend to use it, etc. These threads, thankfully, don't show up as often now (another sign botting is more rare?).