Mockery at a class in TSO [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Brat

10-31-2008, 12:47 PM

In general, me interests, why to a SOE and Aeralik in particular, ignore paladins. After a few hours of crying in berserkers topic, Aeralik have changed adrenaline and removed shield type restrictions. In that time as paladins are constantly ignored.For example, divine favour... How many our community asks to change it? Aeralik, you really think, what this ability goes though to any comparison with bloodletter at sk?The divine aura is, perhaps, the most bad anti-spaik abilities in game. Very slow cast, and recast...And now about the Stone Wall. Why at paladins is not present normal anti-spaik ability in TSO? At Sk in EOF tree is absorb of attack more than 25% hp, 15 seconds riposte all attacks, blodletter. At guards - a tower of stone, reflexes of the dragoon and block next atack from EOF.At berserker - adrenaline, reflexes of the dragoon, ability from a TSO tree and riposte the next attack in EOF AA.At paladin... Not working divine aura and a useless stone wall. Yes, to us have improved our heals, BUT it not anti-spaik abilities.You could make Arch Heal as ward, for example.Improvement of a stone wall at least to 3-5 attacks would be the decision of all problems connected with survivability. Aeralik, answer, please this post though somehow, to be convinced that I not talk to air

Demurg

10-31-2008, 12:54 PM

So knowing all changes of tanks I can draw conclusions.Paladin in ТСО have made not clearly than. If paladin solo target the Tank, also improvements should be at least to level of the guard to make it a full competition. The Solo tank - the Guard = paladin, the AOE-TANK - Sk = berserker.If paladin the Solo TANK that---- some abilities and abilities should be changed at least, some solo attacks in damage +and receive debuffs (to skills, DPS-mod) as at the guard. At least half heals should be WARDS to REDUCE DAMAGE, instead of restore received or at least flowing ward should cast and recast twice faster. Our heals should be not interrupted as when mob non-stop punches paladin even heal himself cannot, as it will interrupt. If paladin the solo tank what for to it - SEVEN AOE + strengthening almost all AOE in AA ` s? When wrote about the given thought that write? Why at which HALF abilities АОЕ is considered the tank solo the tank, thus to it of anything in general for solo tanking hasnt received, and the tank with FOUR base AOE ` s is considered the AOE-TANK and to it have still fastened a heap of all for AOE tanking?Further... The Role paladin in TSO?The Solo tank of guards is much better than paladin as the tank, much hardy + has abilities to survive much more.AOE-tanks Sk and berserkes have much more aggro AOE + Sk have a heap abilities to survive, that is here paladin and nearby did not stand. What role of paladin in TSO when even buffs at paladins is not present sensible in general?Why Sk has received 10 % cast/recast group-buff, and pally are not present, when to it of advantage will be much more as cast of heals For what reason at Sk AOE-TANKS were boosted solo abilities and taunts, and at paladin all a couple? It is possible to list infinitely, but I simply do not understand in general those who does АА Such impression that at them characters SK (at least alts), and in guild where they raiding OT berserkers.An example: 1 weak ability Sk = 2 weak paladin 1 strong ability Sk = 2 strong paladin 1 taunt Sk = 2 taunts paladin That it for delirium?In general:KoS AA ` s 1. Why 8 АА crusader = 17 DA, 8 АА warrior = 45 DA? A disbalance. 2. Agility line of crusader a totally ludicrous, except АОЕ auto-attacks which simply demands updatings, as full trash. 3. Last ability of stamina tree (Divine aura) decrease recast-time, as the uttermost trash against the Dragoon in warriors AA ` s. Even in RoK undebuffed mob on the pull hits above 50 % hp - this ability against such attacks it is useless and has thus huge recast.EoF AA ` s 1. Arch heal = the weakest heal of paladin, thus has recast and cast more longer2. If we Solo TANKS, what for to us strengthening of AOE-ATTACKS? 3. Smite Evil - at all tanks cast of AOE ` s it is lowered to 1.5 сек why on this ability it is not lowered?TSO AA ` sWhat for paladins strengthening of groups-heal? Paladin in MT group will be heal MT group instead of tanking? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />A stone wall the block of ONE attack of times at 1.30, at Sk riposte all attacks during 15 sec + aggro + 20 % to all spells, recast 4 minutes. What it for delirium in general?Abilities - Why at Sk harm touch was it is lowered recast and boosted in damage, and our lay on hands only reduced recast? Why at Sk have been boosted all abilities and taunts, and at paladins only some Divine Favor - in general are taken by a superfluous place in hot-bars as with recast 30 minutes and heal on 1400 are the uttermost trashTOTAL:you are simply obliged to make any changes, differently you have killed a class paladin as a class in TSO.

Mahgnus

10-31-2008, 03:55 PM

When I say this, I'm pretty sure I speak for most raid paladins. Some of the major concerns we've had over the past couple of years have finally been adressed. IE reduction in cast time to our heals however, there are still some issues that have not been adressed at all yet that still have many of us Paladins feelin ignored. This forums (offical paladin forums) alone is riddled with post askin, pleadin, beggin for changes to a few key issues such as changes to Divine Favor and Divine Aura. I myself have posted several threads in the past in the Paladin section in attempt to make this issue more well known.Divine Favor & Divine Aura<a href="http://i34.tinypic.com/2wprn1s.jpg"><img src="http://i34.tinypic.com/2wprn1s.jpg" width="724" height="464" /></a>Divine FavorFirst I will adress the issue of Divine Favor. Right off the bat you can clearly see it did't get upgraded with the rest of ancient teachin abilities and the heal is a abismally smal amount for lvl 80. Also if it triggers it the Paladin is stifled and dazed for 12 seconds. Not to mention it has a 3 min duration so which means you must cast it while you spikin instead of healin yourself unlike a Zerker Visions of Madness that is a "untill cancled buff". Let take a look at the recast, 30 mins recast. 30 mins... thats 300% increase to the recast of Tower of Stone...and this is supost to be out ancient tank save. There are so many thing that could be done to this buff to make it worth while. First make it a untilled cancled buff for one. Secondly increase the spell so it increases with our lvl and actually gets upgraded. Thridly reduce the recast 30 mins is just beyond insane for a recast compared to other fighters. This spell also could b e overhauled and not a single Paladin in the game woul dbe upset with it. Atm it's just one step above useless on the pos ladder.Divine AuraThe major issue Crusaders have with this ability is that when it's cast it doesnt always save your skin for tense moments like when your spikin hard. So lets say it sint geared toward to be a 100% save thats fin however is that is hte case the cast time 2 seconds needs to be reduced along with the recast of 10 mins. That compared to a warriors reflexes in the agi line which is a 100% save with a 3 min recast and darn near insta cast.The last "MAIN"/ "LARGE" issues most Paladins are havein atm is "were do we fit in on raids now?". We are now a second hand MT while a lower rate OT then before. It's not that we have been nerfed but we just havent progressed along with other tanks. All plate tanks have take 3 step forward and we have only taken 1. If we are turly meant to be a single target tanks then those 2 minor changes would go along way to help make that possible. Anoter "main" issues I have heard/ discussed is our buffs to a group. There has never once been somone in raid that was glad they were grouped with a Paladin for buffs. You can now bet ppl want to be in a sk's group with there 10% cast speed and 10% reuse group buff. Why we dont have an aa's to increase our group buff to be on par with that I'm unsure tbh. Workin somethin along that into the mix would aslo shut most Paladins up.The change to our group rez was a step into the right idrection however im still nunsure why it is 3% per rank vs an sk's 5% per rank with a secondary effect to Harm Touch? if a added a secondary effect to ours and increase its power to 5% per rank that would make the ability a great aa to take and 100% of raid Paladins would take it.In Conclusion to this wall of text if those issues were adressed the Paaldin community might just O all over themselves for the first time in the game about there class (well maybe not on AB but on the rest of the servers for sure ^^) Those are minor easy to fix issues that would take minimal time that would go a tremendous way in tweakin the needs of our class.

Lionnhart

10-31-2008, 05:02 PM

Imho, The Paladin class just seems to be falling lower and lower when it comes to tanks and tanking abilities. Of all the plate tanks, I believe now we are the only class without any viable ca/spells/abilities.... (we are considered to be 2nd MT's behind guards in TSO how?).1. How do you expect a pally to be a MT if, we have no viable death save? ( 1 that stifles us, and cures us for less than 6% of our hp (raid buffed), AND has a 30min recast)2. How do you expect a pally to be a MT if we have no viable abilities to prevent deaths? Other tanks have more than one such abilities... i.e dragoons, ToS, bloodletter, tso abilities yadda yadda..... We get 1 move which lets us block 1 hit at random...... correct me if im wrong, but isnt that just giving us an extra chance to parry or shield block???3. The argument "Oh but pallies can heal, and ward, and loh themselves..." Um.... yeah, dont sk's get something like that.... except it does dmg too? called HT, same timer too..... and warriors, have 5% more mitigation thru aa bonus, on top of the fact they mitigate better just because they are warriors. Lets see who lives through a 15k hit.... sks? yeah they got the extra unconcious hp...... warriors... yeah they'd probably only take 13.5k instead of the full 15.... Pallies say "[Removed for Content] wipe (bad luck)"4. "We are built to be OT's".... not according to what tso wants us to be... and not with SK's and Zerk new abilities...TBH, we are 1/4 of the way to nowhere (MT, OT, DPS, Heal). We are the lowest dps class of the ALL fighters, we have 0 viable death saves, we have 0 viable abilities to help us take spike dmg, and with the nerf to block, we are probablyworst off after tso launches, than before. (a scout with lifespike, would probably heal a grp better than our heals...... and can probably tank better than us in instances too)Pallies are supposed to be a tank, please make us one.....

motogp

10-31-2008, 08:14 PM

"Boycott". I played a Paladin as my main for a long time. But other Tanks were getting so much better over time i had no choice to change my main to a guard. If you want to tank raids, Guardian was the way to go. TBH, if Paladins got the Love they need i would change back. But until then ill play the class that gets me a raid spot. Who knows, If i have to sit out on a raid to let a SK tank, I will quit the game in a nano second.

lavasoul

11-01-2008, 04:31 AM

I'm just gonna post the endline ability for paladin/sk and let you people whose not in beta see if paladin need help with our endline ability.Shadowknight :Shadowknight's Furor - 4 minute recast and 15 second duration. Caster will riposte 100% of incoming frontal attack. Attack from other quadrants have the same chance of being parried. On a successful attack this spell will cast Shadowknight's Furor on target of attack which will increases threat to target by 1,476-2,214. Prevent caster from being interrupted. Improves spell damage by 20%.Essence Siphon - 30 second recast and 30 second duration. Increase Int/Str of group members by 66. Increase melee damage and spell damage of group by 120. Inflicts 432-649 disease damage on target. Decrease Int/Str of target by 66. Decrease melee damage and spell damage of target by 120.Paladin :Stonewall - 1 minute 30 second recast and 10 second duration. Allow caster to block next incoming attack (which is 1 melee attack). Dispell when target successfully block an attack.Faithful Cry - 3 minute recast and 20 second duration. Caster has 15% chance of having their primary weapon's autoattack strike the target multiple times. Caster will double attack on 40% of melee attacks.

Yahshua

11-01-2008, 11:11 AM

Abel,This was a helpful post; thanks. It is clear to me that -- again -- paladins are getting the shaft. The stonewall end line looks completely worthless (block ONE attack???) and the Faithful cry, while a good concept is also very weak with only a 15% chance attached to the most important part of it. Can you please insist on better changes on my behalf Abel? I know you have input in beta, and I would greatly appreciate it. We all need to rally on this guys -- I refuse to roll another toon because SOE refuses to improve our class or at least keep it on par with similar classes...is there nothing that can be done???

AziBam

11-01-2008, 01:25 PM

^^ points to Maghnus. He got it right. Paladins were solid in RoK. Paladins are still solid in new xpac. They just need a few easily made tweaks. Paladin still has the best aggro tools in the game. (Ok, maybe you can argue that guards are up there too but it's close.)SKs needed love. (badly)Warrior dps was way high compared to crusaders. Now, crusaders are going up while warriors are being adjusted down a bit via AAs. Hopefully, it will land at roughly a happy medium. Also, hopefully player skill will determine OT position now rather than class. Sadly, I still think guards are the one real choice for raid MT in most cases. They just have more tools in their arsenal than the rest of us.

Maveric_LOL

11-01-2008, 01:38 PM

As much as i would love to belive they would change DF and DA i know better. They have been broken and sucking (respectivly) for ages now. As for Maghus he is right we have been left behind. Warriors needed nerfing and they have been, great. SK's needed a boost and they got it, great im happy for them, but because you gave one crusader some love dosent mean you neglect the other crusader class and just toss us the left over scraps. Stone wall in its present form certainly seems to suck, why not make it 3 like ToS? Honestly would another 2 blocks on it suddenly make paladins way over powered? Why have you all of a sudden left us behind on the block curve too and where are the group buffs?The sad part is i know none of us will get an answer. We will as always, be ignored im sure.

Boethius_Permafrost

11-03-2008, 05:33 PM

Do death save abilities actually prevent the death, or do you lose all your buffs?

OrcSlayer96

11-03-2008, 05:38 PM

Where do people get the idea we are behind on shield block? Any that have access to the BETA boards and/or TSO beta should know that we have the highest shield protection now. If you want more procs on stonewall, do you want the TOS penalty of damage to your shield as well? Sure, i would like a 30% health or better hit to proc stonewall and divine favor to be tweaked to be usable again, but we are nowhere near as bad off as some seem to think. Until shadowknights are given amends or something similar i am not too worried on the buffs they finally recieved. The question i ask the posters/readers is how many have actually played in beta in solo/group/raid situations and still feel that the paladin class is doom and gloom. Hearing from a friend of a friend and then posting is not acceptable, nor is logging into beta only long enought o jot down the AA's. The good paladins will work with what we recieved, while continueing to post recommendations on spells/gear/aa's. The bad/bored paladins will either quit/betray or reroll a alt to see how the "other tanks" do. Personally the ones that reroll/betray are welcome to do as they are usually the flavor of the month players and their loss in the paladin community is negligable at best...<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Lionnhart

11-03-2008, 07:53 PM

(Posted exact same issue in tso forums) With the nerf to uncontested block, our advantage will not be as high. My math might be wrong, but with all the 200aa's, the SK will might be ahead of the paladin in terms of block %. The taps and drains will make them comparable to pally healing himself. The fact that the sk is doing dmg, while healing himself will generate twice the aggro a self healing paladin will generate. Not to mention much stronger "emergency save" abilities.The warriors have an advantage with inate mitigation as well as an aa ability to bump their armor effectiveness up by 5%. They received a slight nerf to da, but still retain all their abilities from before, ToS, dragoons, with the additoin of the new tso aa skill, etc....Through looking at the tso gear, I can see alot of block oriented gear for both warrios AND crusaders, with neither getting an edges.So you see, the slight advantage paladins have in blocking are gone, the self heals and wards are neglible when compared to an sk. We will no longer be the prefered OT. Dont even think about being an MT when all 3 other tanks offer much viable abilities. Yes, we got an increase to DA, (which is great), but of all 4 tanks, we are the worst dpsing. And do I need to remind people that this is not a "paladin" only upgrade but a crusader upgrade, meaning sks get it too. We are the only tank class that have gotten left behind with the expansion. Everyone is close to being on par, except for the paladin. There is no in picking a paladin over any of the other classes. OrcSlayer, fyi, SK's have a similar abilitie close to amends, it grabs i believe 3% of every group members hate. And they have deathmarch which will give put sks close to the top, if not the top of the hate list that they can cast VERY frequently. Honestly, after amends, what other aggro generating tool do we have to generate hate. And I am not talking about snap aggro abilities like holy ground, sigil etc. And to your point about whether paladins like a tos ability if i had to repair more frequently? I believe 99.9% of the raiding paladins out there would answer with an astonding yes.I have grouped in beta, I have soloed in beta, I have no raided in beta. I have 4 toons, a pally, a guard, an sk, and a zerk. All i can say is that with the Zerk, Guard and SK, i can solo KC. I could only solo KC with my pally toon ONLY because he was in full raid gear (Not beta buffed). In short, I will not reroll because I love the Paladin. HOWEVER, in being a paladin, I want to be PROUD, and NEEDED. I do not want to feel like I have a toon, competing in the "Special Olympics", when every other tank class is competing in the real one.

OrcSlayer96

11-03-2008, 08:20 PM

If you were looking at the original beta sk aa's they had the slim advantage of block over us, that was removed when they took a coupole of the hate positionals away awhile back. Looking at things currently, my numbers show paladins at 39% aa bonus on shield block and shadowknights at 15%, but i guess that isnt considered a large difference. On one hand you say you dont count holy ground and sigil because they are temporary agro gatherers and the other you praise death march which operates in a similar temporary manner. If you are MTing a raid, i can assure you the 41% hate siphon will exceed the small % group hate siphon the shadowknight has if the amends target knows what they are doing. If a person is wanting to be better on the parse, especially on multimobs, then a shadowknight will be a better fit, which is inline with the devs stated goal that shadowknights and berserkers are aoe tanks.Shadowknights have more unconcious health if they go down that AA line(which most do), on the flip side it is unusual to see a shadowknight come close to a health specced paladin of similar gear, which do you prefer, more health while you are standing or more health on the floor?On the terms of mitigation, since when has that been the big deciding factor on plate tanks? Ever since diminishing returns and the sheer amount of mitigation it requires to bump up a % past the incline, majority of plate tanks out there prefer to dump there resources into uncontested avoidance options, health, or damage abilities. The comment on soloing Karnor's Castle on the guardian/berserker or shadowknight i have to call you on it. Is this in the beta buffed vp gear 200 aa's of beta, or in the rok expansion on live? Was it the entrance mobs at the gate or all the mobs including names in there? If you want something changed on the paladin class, don't resort to exagerations on what other fighters can do.Your answer to the tower of stone question answers one of my own, would you prefer to have all the guardian abilities? The grass is always greener on the other side, and if i wanted the guardian abilities i would play a guardian, maybe you would feel more comfortable playing a guardian also?

Lionnhart

11-03-2008, 08:31 PM

Mobs, at front, AND the names. 3 toons beta buffed, with beta buff gear, no exagerations. You asked if Paladins wanted an ability similar to ToS, with the negative being that we would take damage to our shields. I merely answered your question by saying 99.9 % of pallies would want that. I did not say I wanted that ability.

OrcSlayer96

11-03-2008, 08:54 PM

<cite>Lionnhart wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mobs, at front, AND the names. 3 toons beta buffed, with beta buff gear, no exagerations. You asked if Paladins wanted an ability similar to ToS, with the negative being that we would take damage to our shields. I merely answered your question by saying 99.9 % of pallies would want that. I did not say I wanted that ability.</blockquote>Okay, if this was a comparison of vp geared out fighters with 200 aa's going back to a ROK Karnor's castle, and you say you cant do it with the paladin then you are not specced right with the AA's. I still find it hard to believe you can solo all the names in there, but if that is the case, you did not setup the paladin right. I have not seen the discrepency you are talking about in beta so far, in fact i have seen some nice survival increases with the 200 AA's. What AA choices did you go down on the paladin in KOS/EOF/TSO?

lavasoul

11-03-2008, 09:32 PM

SK with TSO AA is at 15%+15%= 30% shield effectiveness. Sk in single target and AE fight will out parse a paladin any day if both are in same gear setup/spec. This is because paladin is more defensive and SK is offensive which is fine by me but one thing I don't agree on is why an SK get an endline ablity that gives them 15 sec of 100% riposte while paladin get an ability that blocks 1 melee attack. Paladin are suppose to be a defensive tank which we should get something to help with our survivability in dealing with spike damage. I send in a few /feedback on suggestion with stonewall and still haven't see any changes as of yet. An SK can heal close to what a paladin can heal when soloing plus does twice as much damage and I'm not taking about soloing green and even cons, this is done in chelsith where you fight yellow con.

Lionnhart

11-03-2008, 09:58 PM

Shield block on SK's are 30% I believe, not 15%. Will have to recheck once beta is back up. AA Lines areStr 4-8-8-2-2Sta 4-4-8-8Int 4-4-8-5EoF Lines areHero, smite spec to endSingle heal 5sacrament3loh 3Prayer 3TSOSpecced to heal, shield block... mostly and stonewall.Look, I am not here to argue with you the mechanics of being a paladin. The fact that you think the dev's are not overlooking the paladin class, and like taking one step forward while every other plate tank is taking 5,6 steps is your opinion. I merely wanted to state mine and the majority of paladins who ARE going to betray once tso goes live. Which is the paladin abilities to BLOCK are diminished after RoK because block is not uncontested anymore. So when we raid, our advantage of blocking a raid mob pre-tso is diminished. With the SK receiving 30% block, that is only 15% less than Pallies, So a shield giving w/ 1000 rating would give pallies 1400ish, while the same shield would give sk's 1300. not a huge difference.To a person soloing, Sks having more unconcious hp means nothing, but in a group that extra 2k+ hp is big. Who cares if I am standing or lying down. As long as I can still be healed, and can keep tanking without the rev sickness and having to buff. Let me give you this scenario, paladin divine favors (our ONLY death save), dies, comes back stifled, cant loh, cant use tso endline, gets hit again dies..... game over.Now look at this scenario, SK hits tso endline ability, doesnt get it in time, gets killed but is unconcious instead of being dead, gets healed to 1, sk' tso end ability hits, 15 secs of riposte, sk gets healed to full and keeps going.I understand there are many scenarios out there, i just wanted to illustrate a typical scenario.Dont forget the bloodletter ability, everytime an add is killed, sks will get healed to 100%.Now consider that Zerks and SKs are meant to be AoE tanks, both with good deathsaves and abilities to prevent spike damage.That leaves the Paladin and Guard as being the SINGE target tanks. Guards have a couple death saves and spike prevent skills, while the Paladin (remember lowest DPS), who can heal himself (thus generating the least amount of aggro), who also has amends (warriors have passive hate gen, SK's hate jumps up exponentially with a fast reuse deahtmarch, as well as their high dps's), who also happens to have ZERO viable death saves/dmg spike abilites, who was the king in blocking (now evened out, and uncontested block nerfed) gets ignored.Please tell me that isnt slightly unfair.

Cyrdemac

11-04-2008, 11:53 AM

Havent heard of a revamp of Bloodletter so far. As I know it heals the SK if he dies (3 Trigger, healed with group-hp), not if an add dies.Also our precious Divine Favor is working, but due to this nice high DA values and the fast attack speeds of raidmobs, we mostly got killed anyway, because no healer can be that quick (at least not on lagging german servers).When is mitigation worth something again? I mean it shall absorb 50-60% damage? well, cant say I feel better with those 9-12k autoattack from vp trash when its already mitigated? Last time I checked its almost the same as scouts get hit there. So I've got the feeling that mitigation means nothing on raids or so tiny amounts that nobody cares, avoidance is the king. And on lookout to the new additional crits from raidmobs, avoidence will be the king again, until the raid wiped enough to get some crit mit armor pieces.Looking at this new damage from the mobs, reliable death saves will be very important imho.

Maveric_LOL

11-04-2008, 12:25 PM

<cite>Cyrdemac wrote:</cite><blockquote>Havent heard of a revamp of Bloodletter so far. As I know it heals the SK if he dies (3 Trigger, healed with group-hp), not if an add dies.Also our precious Divine Favor is working, but due to this nice high DA values and the fast attack speeds of raidmobs, we mostly got killed anyway, because no healer can be that quick (at least not on lagging german servers).When is mitigation worth something again? I mean it shall absorb 50-60% damage? well, cant say I feel better with those 9-12k autoattack from vp trash when its already mitigated? Last time I checked its almost the same as scouts get hit there. So I've got the feeling that mitigation means nothing on raids or so tiny amounts that nobody cares, avoidance is the king. And on lookout to the new additional crits from raidmobs, avoidence will be the king again, until the raid wiped enough to get some crit mit armor pieces.Looking at this new damage from the mobs, reliable death saves will be very important imho.</blockquote>QFE!No one has cared about mit really since like pre KoS and most well geared raid tanks already have more mit than they could possibly know what to do with, most are into diminishing returns even in offensive.Divine Favor sucks in epic propotions. Like he said it works, its just the hits come so fast with DA and even without DA that with its low heal value its useless. Even if by some miracle you survive your now stiffled. Course it was one of the few ancient teachings with a hard value intead of a % and thats why it sucks. It hasnt scaled, we are in T8 and the thing is still putting out a T6 heal.Divine Aura while its super awsome godliness for the group enviroment, and is pretty effective in T1 and T2 it sucks bigtime beyond that. Its 50% limitation means that against Levi or stuff in VP for example alot of hits will still get through, and if the mob double attacks you could as well not have even bothered to cast the thing. Bottom line, past T2 its not RELIABLE and what we need is reliability somethiung that we can count on to work 90% of the time or better, not an 'ok ill cast this, and maybe just maybe if im super lucky and the planets align and its not the 3rd Thursday or 2nd Tuesday of the month ill live'. On top of that the recast time is way too long. Either they need to make the recast time like 2-3 mins and keep the 50% cap or make the cap like 75% - 80% and make the recast time 5-6 mins.Agro is an issue these days too, say what you want but in a well geared raid force pushing high dps it can be tough at times to hold agro even with taunts, amends, sigil holy ground etc so DPS becomes a big part of holding agro, and we are well behind the other fighters in that department. There is a dual wielding zerker in my guild pushing out obscene dps ever since he got his mythical and if im not carefull ill lose agro to him. God forbid he gets a head start on the mob, holy ground gets wasted for some reason etc. One of the problems with our reliance on amends is your relying on other people to generate part of your hate and thats not always 100% reliable specially if the person is not used to having amends on them.

Kaarim

11-04-2008, 02:19 PM

Oh my..just to remind everyone crusaders haven't lost anything but only gained. Please keep that in mind.Replying to Lavasoul:First off the SK out parsing in single and aoe fights vs a Pally. First having 2 crusaders in raid is a waste or in the same group. SK end ability is fair why? Since we have lesser defensive than a guardian and a paladin and a zerker something to pull them out of a difficult situation would be nice so we got it. The Block ability for a pally is nice if your tanking, look on the brightside at least you don't burn your shield like a guardian and still have something to help save u...If I were a pally I would use that ability everytime it's up just to lessen the dmg intake over time the recast is much quicker than the SK one. Keep in mind Shadowknights have the lowest HP and avoidance than any fighter. The only one thing going for a shadowknight right now in RoK is Bloodletter and that is only one trigger, not many sk's are lucky enough to get in a raid guild to have 6/7vp pieces to gain a second trigger. Paladins are the prefered OT right now and I'm sure they won't be replaced next expansion unless there is another player with greater skill, since skill will now be the sepration for OTs, MT will always be the prefered Guardian.Lionhart mention SK's have a shield block. That is false information SK's have 0 shield block in the new AA. Pallies still have greater shield block than an SK. Keep this in mind "Block" is not being counted as uncontested avoidance anymore, the reason for this is to bring all fighters inline defensively. Paladins are a great class and you guys are fortunate to not getting nerfed like the monks and the warriors in specific areas.I don't understand why there are people complaining. You will not be replaced in your guilds if you are doing your job right, if you are NOT and a zerk, pally, or sk can do a better job than u, you will be replaced and will have to re-evaluate your skill. The OT position will be based heavily on skill now more than anything, you can thank the fighter changes for that.*edit* Someone mentioned the SK 3% hate grp transfer...please don't compare that to Amends lol....besides that they changed that buff for sk's...we don't have it anymore instead its a 2min recast ability that does aoe dmg, aoe threat, life tap and absorb 1 attack if over 25% max HP..every 2min.To sum it up amoung plate tanksDefensively: Guard, Pally, Zerker, Shadowknight (I believe this is the same order for HP, im not sure if zerks are higher or lower than pally)Offensively/DPS: Zerker, Shadowknight, Pally, GuardEasiest aggro gained: Pally, Guard, Zerker, Shadowknight.Only thing SK has over a pally and always will is DPS. Yes we got more defensive, but you are still ranking higher than a SK, it could be by a lil or a lot doesn't matter, you still rank higher, same as our DPS you are lower than us it could be by a lil or a lot doesn't matter, we still rank higher.I hope this post gets u guys thinking that...it's not that bad at all and Crusaders are LUCKY we did not get nerfed or degraded in anyway...we gained and became BETTER. Every other fighter except crusaders got something taken away, don't forget that.....

lavasoul

11-04-2008, 04:00 PM

<cite>Darkwarrior@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh my..just to remind everyone crusaders haven't lost anything but only gained. Please keep that in mind.Replying to Lavasoul:First off the SK out parsing in single and aoe fights vs a Pally. First having 2 crusaders in raid is a waste or in the same group. SK end ability is fair why? Since we have lesser defensive than a guardian and a paladin and a zerker something to pull them out of a difficult situation would be nice so we got it. The Block ability for a pally is nice if your tanking, look on the brightside at least you don't burn your shield like a guardian and still have something to help save u...If I were a pally I would use that ability everytime it's up just to lessen the dmg intake over time the recast is much quicker than the SK one. Keep in mind Shadowknights have the lowest HP and avoidance than any fighter. The only one thing going for a shadowknight right now in RoK is Bloodletter and that is only one trigger, not many sk's are lucky enough to get in a raid guild to have 6/7vp pieces to gain a second trigger. Paladins are the prefered OT right now and I'm sure they won't be replaced next expansion unless there is another player with greater skill, since skill will now be the sepration for OTs, MT will always be the prefered Guardian.Lionhart mention SK's have a shield block. That is false information SK's have 0 shield block in the new AA. Pallies still have greater shield block than an SK. Keep this in mind "Block" is not being counted as uncontested avoidance anymore, the reason for this is to bring all fighters inline defensively. Paladins are a great class and you guys are fortunate to not getting nerfed like the monks and the warriors in specific areas.I don't understand why there are people complaining. You will not be replaced in your guilds if you are doing your job right, if you are NOT and a zerk, pally, or sk can do a better job than u, you will be replaced and will have to re-evaluate your skill. The OT position will be based heavily on skill now more than anything, you can thank the fighter changes for that.*edit* Someone mentioned the SK 3% hate grp transfer...please don't compare that to Amends lol....besides that they changed that buff for sk's...we don't have it anymore instead its a 2min recast ability that does aoe dmg, aoe threat, life tap and absorb 1 attack if over 25% max HP..every 2min.To sum it up amoung plate tanksDefensively: Guard, Pally, Zerker, Shadowknight (I believe this is the same order for HP, im not sure if zerks are higher or lower than pally)Offensively/DPS: Zerker, Shadowknight, Pally, GuardEasiest aggro gained: Pally, Guard, Zerker, Shadowknight.Only thing SK has over a pally and always will is DPS. Yes we got more defensive, but you are still ranking higher than a SK, it could be by a lil or a lot doesn't matter, you still rank higher, same as our DPS you are lower than us it could be by a lil or a lot doesn't matter, we still rank higher.I hope this post gets u guys thinking that...it's not that bad at all and Crusaders are LUCKY we did not get nerfed or degraded in anyway...we gained and became BETTER. Every other fighter except crusaders got something taken away, don't forget that.....</blockquote>I guess you aren't in beta to know that our block ability only block 1 melee attack and recast is 1 minute and 30 sec. If they let me swap our endline ablity with SK furor I do it in a heartbeat. To block 1 melee attack is not viable spike damage prevention. I could care less if SK does more damage than us but one thing that pally lack is a viable death save and spike damage prevention.

Kaarim

11-04-2008, 04:17 PM

<cite>Abel@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess you aren't in beta to know that our block ability only block 1 melee attack and recast is 1 minute and 30 sec. If they let me swap our endline ablity with SK furor I do it in a heartbeat. To block 1 melee attack is not viable spike damage prevention. I could care less if SK does more damage than us but one thing that pally lack is a viable death save and spike damage prevention.</blockquote>I am in beta not on this account but I used a beta buffed sk and i've seen the beta buffed pally.SK ability on a 3min recast, while your block is on a 1min30s recast. If you reread what i wrote u would understand why pallies get that end ability and why sk's get this end ability. You have the weakest plate tank class vs. one of the stronger plate tank classes and can't understand why you all have that block vs the sk furor? You are already strong...u want to become stronger? Unstopable? Pallies Vs SK in dmg input pally wins hands down...try being an sk and taking in spike damage top end sk's have only self buffed 12-14k HP when u have top end pallies with 14-18k? With higher avoidance and greater block %? You're lucky they didn't make u all burn ur shields like the guardians do when they use their block ability, their recast is longer than yours too. In a raid you can use your Block ability in a single encounter or named fight much more than an SK with a 3min recast ability...sure u live for 15s longer...you're on ur own for another 2min 45s. Where On the other hand you can Block instantly and have a much quicker recast. On top of your mythical weapon already 10% heal 10% absorbtion or something? But you want to become unstopable? If we swap end abilities do you think SK's even have a fighting chance to recover? We have no protection like any other fighter all we have is temporary stability, once bloodletter is gone, and the 3min recast ability is down....what do u think will happen to a SK vs a Pally? Think about it, think about what your class can handle dmg intake vs an SK and come back and tell me if SK's still shouldn't have this ability. If you feel so then maybe it'll balance out if we take ur specific mythical rip off ur 10% heal 10% absorptioin and leave the protection naked remove ur block AA from pally tree, give it to the sk trade all that for that one final ability...and tell me if that is worth it to u and you know what the end result will be? The pally will be taking dmg like an sk and the sk will be taking dmg like a pally. The plate fighters are balanced they gave them what was needed to help them take hits and hold aggro.Again....Defensively: Guard, Pally, Zerker, ShadowknightDefensively: Guard, Pally, Zerker, ShadowknightDefensively: Guard, Pally, Zerker, ShadowknightDefensively: Guard, Pally, Zerker, Shadowknight

Lionnhart

11-04-2008, 04:59 PM

There is no comparison between Stonewall, and the SK endline. Let's look at a typical scenario.SK as OT - The endline ability makes the SK a good candidate for OT because they can absorb huge amounts of damage from multiple mobs. With multiple mobs being able to crit, this feature is HUGE.Pally as OT - Paladin will stonewall, block 1 hit, but will still continue to get pounded. If we are unlucky, the mob will deal low dmg on the first hit, and crit on the 2nd hit. It does not matter whether stonewall comes up in another 1m29secs because we would not be alive long enough to block twice.Pally as secondary Mt's - Mob double hits, and ripostes.... crits on all 3 hits. Paladin will be dead guaranteed, no matter where stonewall was used.Where do you get the idea that Paladins how a huge advantage in HP? We only have 1 spell which gives us increased HP, and that is around 750ish (not 100%). " once bloodletter is gone, and the 3min recast ability is down", dont forget the clicky ability from your mythical.... Having said all this, we can clearly see the SK having 3 abilities to have "stability"what can a paladin do for "stability"? DA? DF? Stonewall? If we look at all these skills, that is a total for 2 hits MAX that we can survive.Looking at the SK abilities, the SK can keep themselves alive for 23 secs (bloodmoon/sk endline), plus bloodletter. In 23 secs, a mob can swing 6-10 times, not to mention the ripostes and the double attacks. Hypothetically, speaking, lets say a mob does and avg of 10k/hit/secThe SK can take 230 000 dmg in 23 secs without dying.The Pally will be able to block, and take 20000 - 30000 dmg from Stonewall, and DA before dying, and this can happen in a matter of seconds. If we factor in the 10% heal, and the 10% dmg mit... the paladin still takes 18000 - 24000, enough to kill a paladin easily. I know the numbers are exaggerated and will never happen in eq2. I just want to illustrate the dmg absorption potential of the sk vs the paladin.

circusgirl

11-04-2008, 05:49 PM

Good lord. No wonder the devs ignore paladins. I gave up reading these forums after the first three posts I read were so full of grammatical errors and typos as to be completely unintelligible.

Zapat

11-04-2008, 05:51 PM

my question is, have any of u addressed this matter to SOE via emails, calls, faxes... whatever? i rolled a Paly myself and find it very fun to play, however i have noticed that other classes seem to go 4 or 5 steps ahead with every update, expansion etc. while us Paladins seem to only take a half step, 1 if were lucky.if spamming SOE with all these complaints is the only way to get the ball rolling, then do it, it worked for zerkers and SK's, why not for us right?

lavasoul

11-04-2008, 06:09 PM

<cite>Darkwarrior@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Abel@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess you aren't in beta to know that our block ability only block 1 melee attack and recast is 1 minute and 30 sec. If they let me swap our endline ablity with SK furor I do it in a heartbeat. To block 1 melee attack is not viable spike damage prevention. I could care less if SK does more damage than us but one thing that pally lack is a viable death save and spike damage prevention.</blockquote>I am in beta not on this account but I used a beta buffed sk and i've seen the beta buffed pally.SK ability on a 3min recast, while your block is on a 1min30s recast. If you reread what i wrote u would understand why pallies get that end ability and why sk's get this end ability. You have the weakest plate tank class vs. one of the stronger plate tank classes and can't understand why you all have that block vs the sk furor? You are already strong...u want to become stronger? Unstopable? Pallies Vs SK in dmg input pally wins hands down...try being an sk and taking in spike damage top end sk's have only self buffed 12-14k HP when u have top end pallies with 14-18k? With higher avoidance and greater block %? You're lucky they didn't make u all burn ur shields like the guardians do when they use their block ability, their recast is longer than yours too. In a raid you can use your Block ability in a single encounter or named fight much more than an SK with a 3min recast ability...sure u live for 15s longer...you're on ur own for another 2min 45s. Where On the other hand you can Block instantly and have a much quicker recast. On top of your mythical weapon already 10% heal 10% absorbtion or something? But you want to become unstopable? If we swap end abilities do you think SK's even have a fighting chance to recover? We have no protection like any other fighter all we have is temporary stability, once bloodletter is gone, and the 3min recast ability is down....what do u think will happen to a SK vs a Pally? Think about it, think about what your class can handle dmg intake vs an SK and come back and tell me if SK's still shouldn't have this ability. If you feel so then maybe it'll balance out if we take ur specific mythical rip off ur 10% heal 10% absorptioin and leave the protection naked remove ur block AA from pally tree, give it to the sk trade all that for that one final ability...and tell me if that is worth it to u and you know what the end result will be? The pally will be taking dmg like an sk and the sk will be taking dmg like a pally. The plate fighters are balanced they gave them what was needed to help them take hits and hold aggro.Again....Defensively: Guard, Pally, Zerker, ShadowknightDefensively: Guard, Pally, Zerker, ShadowknightDefensively: Guard, Pally, Zerker, ShadowknightDefensively: Guard, Pally, Zerker, Shadowknight</blockquote>Not sure where you getting the idea pally that can self buff for 18k hp from. I'm a raiding paladin and current the MT for my guild we finish all instance content with me tanking all of instance end raid mob. My self buff is only 13.5k hp with all the best gear you get from instance raid and a piece of Avatar loot, fully raid buff sure any tank can get 20k hp buff. Clearly I'm well geared but not geared to the hp you say paladins are getting like up to 18k hp self buff. How can you say a endline ability to block 1 melee hit is a viable spike damage prevention when a single hit depends on luck if you survive. A real spike damage prevention is having at least time to give your healers time to heal you back up not a lucky 1 melee block and cross for fingers and pray. Even if the skill is on a long recast even 5 minute is good if it block a couple of attack compare to something that you can cast every minute but only block 1 attack which is completely crap. We need a viable death save and spike damage prevention not a skill that require complete luck. What our mythical offer us paladin is a defensive tank which is completely different from a death save and a spike prevention. If you really understand the game mechanic of everquest 2 the 10% damage reduction and 10% heal on paladin mythical does not equal to a 20% damage reduction.One more thing is I never say SK shouldn't get their Shadowknights's Furor or they don't deserve it, where did you read in my post that I want SK endline abilities to get nerf or taken away? All I'm asking is for the Devs to look over paladin divine favor and stonewall and give us a viable death save and spike damage prevention and not some skill that when we click we cross our fingers and pray.This is not a thread about wanting to nerf your sk so just chill so us pally can push for some changes with our death save and endline ability for spike damage prevention.

Kaarim

11-04-2008, 06:23 PM

Lionhart k fine 23s of surviving w/e got it that's true SK's can pull that off next expansion. What happens after 23s? Our main defenses are down. K I'll look at it from your PoV and from pallies with your similar thought process.Your complaints are...mainly surviving spike damage and recovery from it. Not your overall defense cause....no pally should complain about that I mean come on they are the second best defensive fighters in the game.You want spike survival on top of your defensive capabilities. You all were not given a great spike survival tool but at least a good one that will help right? After all your defensive skills are dominating over a shadowknight isn't it?Lets say you all get a survival tool like tsunami or the sk ability or tower of stone type. Won't that be just..another guardian? Won't you all of a sudden become a great wall of defense? It will throw off the balance, and if this is given, then the shadowknights should be given greater general defense as well? Why should the highest defensive tanks get the top end spike survival and the lower defensive tanks are suppose to get what? What would be fair? Wouldn't the scale be tiped for guards and or pallies? I mean Guards already got high end defense on top of spike survival, you pallies want that too? Want to be skilled like a guardian? Want to have a 3 block chance, or a 10-15s dmg immunity? Maybe Both?Some of you paladins complain about SK's getting a few abilities to take spike damage, lol? I mean It's totally CRAZY why on earth would u give the lesser plate tank a few spike survival tools? It just doesn't make sense right? Why should the weaker plate fighter with lack of defensive skills have such abilities? It's TOTALLY not balancing the plate fighters at all if the developer gives them a defensive skill. Give me a break, if you all had 0 shield block AA, have the absorbtion/heal taken away from the mythical...no protection at all (Just like a Shadowknight) u think it would be wrong for a player/class like that to gain a defensive skill to save them for 23s than after that you are on your own??Easiest thing to do...Beta buff an SK and A Pally they will be equally geared, buy the exact same weapon/shield fill out ur AAs go solo a dragon in Skyfire, auto attack it heal only to survive don't do any other spell/ca....who will survive the best? Don't use any tricks any saves just heals/lifetaps to stay a float.Next dont use the pally block AA line,rest it so it's 0, you have no pally mythical...ur protection is equal to a sk's do the same test and see the difference.Afterwards spec back normally and use your new spike survival tricks only when u need to survive after all u use them when things get rough right or use them on pulls w/e just use them and see who will survive the longest. In that setup compare mit/avoidance/HP as well.Think about it after you are done and maybe the paladins who think they need more would realize that they are fine and that it's not so bad as ppl are intending it to be compared to shadowknights. Do the test you will see for yourself.*edit*sry abel u posted while i was writing this to reply.I didn't say every high end pally will have 18k i said anywhere between 14k-18k. If 18k is too high whatever lol point is will have much higher HP than a shadowknights at least it should be....My SK has 11k and i haven't gotten any raid jewelry yet except for jewel of animosity. I have 5/7 vp sets mythical weapon, RE tank cloak. My armor is pretty well off with jewelry I would probably be 12k, 13k if I get a better cloak and tank shield.And I didn't say anything about you saying u want us nerfed. And I never did say or thought of the 10% heal 10% absorbtion was 20% dmg reduction that's not what the mythical says.All I'm saying plain and simple is, Pallies take in dmg better than an SK that the class is pretty solid and not as flimsy as ppl my point it out to be.This will be my last post in this forum here I feel I stated my point as a crusader who played both classes. If anyone is really serious about the difference between the two beta buff them equally and run the tests I suggested...it's not a raid test but it's a general test of the dmg intake/spike survival etc..Good luck in TSO and I'm happy you all didn't get nerfed.

OrcSlayer96

11-04-2008, 06:41 PM

I guess i need to staple the note on some of the poster's foreheads, but block is still uncontested on shields, for the last time the only nerf was the +1-5 shield block that was added to gear like the soulfire gladius, demonguard chestpiece, green dragon shield, and many others. On those items they converted to a shield effectiveness of like 102 or higher to add to the shield protection or a % like 5% more shield effectiveness. The reason they say it is contested now, is those items will degrade your uncontested block % as you level up from the item level to mob level, while the current live mechanics made the +block effective regardless of the level of item it is on. Note that ALL FIGHTERS have this applied. Did they add back the 2nd TSO block percent to SK's, because 2 weeks ago they only had 15% on one TSO line and that was it. As far as i am concerned the things that need to be looked at are Divine favor and stonewall tweaked and it wouldnt hurt to have divine aura recast halved. Those that wish to betray to shadowknight are welcome to it, in a month or so later they will be complaining about shadowknights i imagine....

Boli32

11-04-2008, 07:12 PM

I gave up correcting people on these forums a long time ago... if everyone thinks that we are majorly nerfed and betrays well more masters for me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />Now where is that thread where we had posters ADAMENTLY argueing that wisdom increased our spell damage... and this is before the epic entered the equation.. I need a good laugh <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/paladins/" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/paladins/</a> <-- if you want the real pally forums we can get dev ignored in an atmosphere that doesn't breed incorrectness <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Brat

11-04-2008, 07:21 PM

Mahgnus

11-05-2008, 05:27 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Good lord. No wonder the devs ignore paladins. I gave up reading these forums after the first three posts I read were so full of grammatical errors and typos as to be completely unintelligible.</blockquote>You win the game for pointin out ppls "grammatical errors" and "typos" It's as if you couldn't smell the Vodka pourin out of the first two posts. +10 cool points for you Shamoo<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/paladins/" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/paladins/</a> <-- if you want the real pally forums we can get dev ignored in an atmosphere that doesn't breed incorrectness <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>It's where all the cool kids hang out <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />I also find it funny that multiple ideas posted on Flames find there way into the game. No freckin wai! right! A community that large cannot be ignored. They may night read it at work but the forums are seen nonetheless.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

Kigneer

11-08-2008, 05:23 PM

<cite>AziBam wrote:</cite><blockquote>^^ points to Maghnus. He got it right. Paladins were solid in RoK. Paladins are still solid in new xpac. They just need a few easily made tweaks. Paladin still has the best aggro tools in the game. (Ok, maybe you can argue that guards are up there too but it's close.)SKs needed love. (badly)Warrior dps was way high compared to crusaders. Now, crusaders are going up while warriors are being adjusted down a bit via AAs. Hopefully, it will land at roughly a happy medium. Also, hopefully player skill will determine OT position now rather than class. Sadly, I still think guards are the one real choice for raid MT in most cases. They just have more tools in their arsenal than the rest of us.</blockquote>Spending more time as a mentoring tank for lower tiers raising guildies, and in the process getting to know the Paladin class particulars through days of dungeon crawling. Love this class, but it truly lives up to it's motto: "Jack of all trades; master of none".What one ability does the Pallys master? ONE? We're out DPSed by other classes (AoE is so weak it's pitiful). So many times I would have to use every spell to try to kill a baddie (spending over a minute for each instance) eating valuable power with folks claiming "it gets better at 72+" (it doesn't help at 52, ya know??), where another high DPS class at level 37 can kill a whole mob with one or two spells. In groupings even in the lower tiers as a tank, high DPS players will kill the baddies outright before the tank can get the mob around them to kill. This causes the tank to lose leadership in the group, too. So frustrated at times I just pull out of the group, because my role isn't the fighter/group leader anymore (tired of apologizing -- "I don't mean to be harsh but as a tank.......". <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />Worse, in such groupings I wind up being more of a healer than a tank -- "RE LFG need healer PST" and guess what the Pally is the healer. :rolleyes: I didn't create a Pally to be a healer, but a crusader who can heal as our spells are so nerfed, but not as a main profession. The recast timer for the best heal is an ungodly 15 minutes and too many AAs to waste to lessen to a "game breaking" 10 minutes.In short, what is the role of a Paladin in EQ2 now? Devs can you at least let us know the role? This class has been so reworked that it feels like it's on the road to extinction (or the devs can't figure out how to balance the warriors and crusaders in their world). Don't mind being a "utility tank" but I sure would appreciate one ability that we can master as a class that is unique to Paladins, and doesn't take 45 seconds to 15 minutes to recast again. No more "fun spells" like a wasted hotbar button for a Squire that doesn't do anything but just stand there to die, or a 10% speed horse that's smaller often than the character itself. Something bona fide that is unique to Paladins -- not Crusaders -- Pallys. Or better since we're Paladins, the best mount in the game. I'll trade the spells for a war horse that has equal to better stats than the warhog GH level 80 mount. THAT would make the pain of leveling a Pally worthwhile -- some light at the end of the tunnel!

OrcSlayer96

11-08-2008, 05:54 PM

I know you may not like the answer Foreen, but it does indeed get better as you level to 80. With the upcoming expansion and properly specced, we will have native 33% quicker casting, 10% reuse, 25% recovery. Our single target spells will have .5 second cast time native and even quicker on the casting aa. All of our spells/combat arts have a boost of at least 20% damage. Lay on hands having a recast base of 5 mins/2.5 mins max reuse. Sacrament self heal can go down to 1.3 min reuse and all our heals as fast as a combat art(except ward is still some slower). We gain a 1 hit block every 1.5 mins, the ability to flurry(4-5 hits) and 40double attack on a AA. In the same line of STR line, we gain 17.6 double attack and in the Shadows line we boost our one hander damage by 25% in addition to whatever dps buffs we have. We gain a replenishing ward on our self health buff and have horse mount restrictions finally removed from the agility line.Our raidwise buff that was like 149 to heals at level 80 is converted over to 5% base heals, so we dont cap anybody on heals, the wisdom line that had health regen is replaced with a group replenishing ward. You will find that your group heal is just as fast as your single target heal. Our heals actually are viable in amount healed and casting speed to be used to supplement tanking. Do they compensate for crits on tso epics, no but then neither does temp mit buffs on warriors. How about another AA that cures you of almost all detrimental effects and gives you immunity for 20 seconds plus allows you to cure while stunned/stifled and such. Just looking at the ordinary leveling, the new abilities you unlock to goto level 80 will make things much easier, holy ground comes to mind for me alone...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kigneer

11-08-2008, 06:43 PM

OrcSlayer,Does that mean the expansion we're still more of a tank healer than a fighter, though (for soloing it's swell, but when the group calls come and they want you as a healer or tank+healer and winding up more the latter, it's a bummer)? Will it address the problem of high DPS characters stealing so much aggo that Rescue doesn't even get the mobs attention (lower level characters don't use or have the lowing aggo gear -- or for that manner many don't even know of it in the T7 range)?Mid-tier it's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel with 20+ more levels to get there. Worse, there's too many power levelers and by the time you do get into a group of 60+ too many don't even know the fighting basics as they're just "playing for fun" (yes, that's important but killing heroic mobs without understanding your class or other classes abilities can result in wipes, which in the end the tank is blamed AGAIN).ADDED: I don't mind healing, it's a lot less work than handling a mob, and when tired I can still participate in groups. But I spend more time trying to say -- "Pallys rez with full health and in combat, folks, but please keep me alive so I can rez you". Too often I'm finding that classes that have healing abilities assume all tanks can't heal and/or rez, and no amount "We can rez in combat even" gets through the fog -- they rather evac, and in places like RE that is sooooo frustrating.Pallys need something to master and/or uniquely our own -- and doesn't need to be explained over and over and over.

AziBam

11-09-2008, 03:33 PM

Gratz on 59 Foreen. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (Pretty sure your sig had 58 on it when I first saw the post late last night.)My answer to "what are paladins masters of" may not be consistent with your experience. In one word. Aggro. At your level there is no hate related ability that is better than amends for an instance tank. For that matter, that's true at 80 as well. I'm assuming you have acquired it but it's a level 49 spell that you want to keep an eye on for M1 as it will never upgrade. In the meantime get it A3 if you haven't already done so. Cast it on the highest dps target in your group. (Not a healer) It helps to run a parser like ACT so after you have some pulls in you can check to see who the most dps is coming from. You also have lvl 52 Sigil of Heroism for temp hate. At 80 you'll get Higher ground which is a phenomenal ability. You are a tank. I've never been invited to a group as a healer. I'd venture to say that the only time you would be considered as a healer would be if that was how you presented yourself. There are some good tanking guides on these boards that might help if you are having troubles. As a rule, in groups I try to avoid healing myself other than a pre-ward before I pull or as an emergency may demand. Let the healer keep you up....it's their job. Our heals (until the expansion arrives) are slow and power inefficient. If you use them too much while tanking you are likely to lose aggro since you stop doing any dps. Heals generate less hate than damage. Try to stay as offensive as you can without making life too hard for your healer. I personally love sword and shield in offensive stance. Others prefer offensive stance with a two hander if they can get by with it. Try to only use Def stance if you absolutely have to in order to survive. The loss of melee skills that comes with Def stance is very hard on fighter dps. Beyond that, I'll just say that you should be the one making the pulls not a dps class in your group. Don't be a madman but keep it moving quickly or your group will tend to get impatient. Neither you nor your healer needs to be at full power every pull. I often pull constantly until I see my healer is downright low on power then I'll pause a moment as needed. Don't give people time to get impatient. I'm one of those that used to be an SK. I switched to paladin at 80 to get the vastly superior hate, roughly equal dps, higher health, and better avoidance. I knew going in that I wouldn't solo as well after I left SK. With the revamp coming at least SK seems to be viable again. It's possible I'd go back with the upcoming changes although it will be hard to give up the hate tools that paladin has. (Sks are getting some great additions but overall I'd have to say that from what I can see I'd still give the aggro edge to paladins.) It just means that switching back now would be because it was the "flavor" of the class that I prefer and not feeling obligated to choose one or the other due to imbalances that used to lean heavily to paladins for tanking abilities.What I do think paladins need is better emergency "oh crap" type abilities. That is why I referred to Maghnus post in the first place. It's basically what he said. Overall, paladins are solid but they could use better short term death prevent type skills. Casting time reductions alone on crusader abilities will be huge for us after the xpac. Throw in some AA changes and damage increases on revamped spells and both crusaders are getting a nice bump.

Rast

11-10-2008, 12:16 PM

Not only have I been a group tank, I've been a raid main tank. There is nothing wrong with our tanking ability except for a couple issues, most of which seem to be getting fixed in ToS.Paladins are a master of Agro, there is no other class that can do as much there as we can.Amends, Sigil, Holy Ground and a whole heaping ton of AoEs to keep mobs from peeling when encountering groups.

NANEEJE

11-10-2008, 12:21 PM

Solo at 80, it just gets better and better and better. When i first hit 80, I struggled hitting Jarsath Wastes 82^ wyrms. Now, a few months later, T1 raid zones, and a few T2, tons of awesome instance gear (thank you Runnyeye 2), I stroll around Jarsath Wastes, in offensive, and camp my writ mobs like crazy. Please, enjoy the class ability to be as good as you want to be. I have grouped with Pallies who were phenomenal, and [Removed for Content]-on able, no doubt. They made our class with about 100 different tools in our bag to complete a group function. The way you set up your Pally will be unique, but in general , close to the most Pallies. I am set up for either dps/ or tank, but I can tell you this, I can solo heal Coa/Voes/Korocust with no problem. I am not going to do it again, but I had to know what would happen if I completely went down the healing spec line. So... you can do anything. Pay attention to the forums, these guys provide a really large amount of help to you get where you want to go. Good luck and have fun!

AziBam

11-11-2008, 06:18 PM

I'm still bummed I never received a beta invite.Anyway, new posts from flames on the SK and Paladin boards note beta changes to several important abilities. Divine Aura now has 5 min recast.Divine Favor now is permanently up until used rather than a temp buff. Oh, and Faithful Cry (new endline AA ability) is VERY nice now with great damage, threat, and a heal component.

Kordran

11-12-2008, 05:31 PM

<cite>Jalathan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladins are a master of Agro, there is no other class that can do as much there as we can.</blockquote>Prepare to kiss that goodbye. Aeralik has posted that it is his intent to significantly change the Paladin to "make adjustments to some of these systems to make tanks more responsible for their aggro and less on other classes to provide it for them". In other words, a massive nerf to Amends, and probably to hate transfers from other classes as well.It seems like Aeralik's idea of "class balance" for Paladins is basically turning them into weaker Guardians that have a few heals which chew through their power.

AziBam

11-12-2008, 05:53 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladins are a master of Agro, there is no other class that can do as much there as we can.</blockquote>Prepare to kiss that goodbye. Aeralik has posted that it is his intent to significantly change the Paladin to "make adjustments to some of these systems to make tanks more responsible for their aggro and less on other classes to provide it for them". In other words, a massive nerf to Amends, and probably to hate transfers from other classes as well.It seems like Aeralik's idea of "class balance" for Paladins is basically turning them into weaker Guardians that have a few heals which chew through their power. </blockquote>Here is the full quote that I've seen.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fighter changes are a 2 step process. The first part is to get most of the achievement and skill changes out of the way which is the major part to most classes. Part 2 looks at the aggro management of the classes and starts the shirgt to a more threat oriented viewpoint and more emphasis on the tank themselves holding aggro rather than through other means. This is probably the more difficult part because hate transfers, hate gain, hate multipliers, etc all need to be looked at and adjusted appropriately. This part will happen once the expansion ships and once we have more to say about it a post will be made.</blockquote>Unless you have another quote you are referring to I see this in the exact opposite way you are reading it. Note that the quote I'm referring to says nothing about paladins in particular. Perhaps you have something else? I read the above to mean that they are looking at trying to make the tanks in general less dependant upon other classes having hate related ablities for generating threat and more independant with their own skills. I have no idea what specifically they have in mind but if I had to guess I'd say it's likely all fighters will see less dps related hate and more threat specific abilities whether they be taunts or other abilities that help them maintain aggro. (hmm...sounds like something paladins already have.) So, maybe I'm just a glass is half full kind of guy but I see that as a good thing. I'd rather be able to hold my own aggro via whatever means than have to rely on a dirge, coercer, assassin, swash to help do it for me. Again, maybe you have other info that will totally change my thoughts on this but I think making tanks more independant for threat and aggro would be an improvement.

Boli32

11-12-2008, 06:35 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>AOE Tank means you can handle the aoe encounters slightly better than the other tanks. Single target tank generally means better single target aggro and slightly more defensive. This doesnt meant that a berserker or sk are your only options to aoe encounters. You can still throw in a really good guardian if you want but the aoe tank toolset is slightly better. Same goes for the single target the aoe tanks can still be used but once we are done the single target guys will be a bit better at their job.I also realize that Amends + warlock/swash is better than what an sk or berserker can do right now. Thats largely what part 2 is meant to address where we make adjustments to some of these systems to make tanks more responsible for their aggro and less on other classes to provide it for them.</blockquote>Goodbye amends; it was nice knowing you.

Kordran

11-12-2008, 07:07 PM

Yup. When you see Aeralik talking about making "adjustments" because Amends on a high DPS class makes it easier for the Paladin to hold aggro, that's pretty much code-word for "we are going to nerf the bejezus out of Amends". I doubt that they'll remove it entirely, but it'll probably have its functionality changed and significantly weakened.They already nerfed Amends a few years back because they felt that it made Paladins "too good" at holding aggro. And now it looks like they're getting ready to drive a stake through the heart of the class. It's too bad, really.

AziBam

11-12-2008, 07:52 PM

/yikes Yeah, I hadn't seen that tidbit of information from Aeralik. Hrm. I guess it's just wait and see and /feedback as needed once more is known.

Sir Longsword

11-13-2008, 10:57 AM

Can someone explain how they are going to make the pally a single target tank? Change all those blue spells to single mob?I have a guard but I made a pally specifically for all the AOE/AE they get...plus the hate management of course. I personally do not want the pally to change at all. It has become one of my favorites and would hate to just now get him close to cap to have him turned into a mini guard. That would be enough to /rage tbh.

Kordran

11-13-2008, 02:56 PM

<cite>Hammerfist@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can someone explain how they are going to make the pally a single target tank? Change all those blue spells to single mob?I have a guard but I made a pally specifically for all the AOE/AE they get...plus the hate management of course. I personally do not want the pally to change at all. It has become one of my favorites and would hate to just now get him close to cap to have him turned into a mini guard. That would be enough to /rage tbh.</blockquote>No one really seems to know the answer to that. It would seem from a practical perspective, what you're talking about is likely; that many of the Paladin's AEs would be changed to single-target attacks (possibly with a faster cast time and lower cooldown). So Decree would become another single-target nuke, Consecrate would be a pulsing nuke that only affects the targetted mob, etc.And yes, it's spelling out to be a massive nerf to the class. The good news though is that it hasn't happened yet. This is supposed to be part of "rebalancing 2.0" after TSO is released. If you don't like the prospects of what SOE has initmated that they're going to do, then the time to speak up about it is now before they go too far down that road. I'm not against changes to the class. But what little has been said by SOE, it sounds more like they plan on gutting it and changing the Paladin into a Guardian that can heal a little bit. That's what I find to be unacceptable.

Sir Longsword

11-13-2008, 03:14 PM

I'm absolutely blown away that SOE would take a class and completely change it to something it's not. I didn't put time into a Paladin only to have a lesser Guardian. I understand tweaks to a class but what is being suggested isn't rational.

Zapat

11-13-2008, 06:56 PM

WE ARE AOE TANKS, thats OUR definitive role, each class has its unique and definitive qualities about them and just altering (or in this case flat out taking 'em away) u just become a knock-off version of some other class. and by taking our ability to do excellent aggro control away and making us single-target tanks, all were becoming is a 2nd class Guardian... who can kinda heal him/herself. We gotta speak up about this crap, seriously! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" />

Gisallo

11-16-2008, 03:18 PM

<cite>Zapatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>WE ARE AOE TANKS, thats OUR definitive role, each class has its unique and definitive qualities about them and just altering (or in this case flat out taking 'em away) u just become a knock-off version of some other class. and by taking our ability to do excellent aggro control away and making us single-target tanks, all were becoming is a 2nd class Guardian... who can kinda heal him/herself. We gotta speak up about this crap, seriously! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>But WaitShadow Knights say "WE ARE AOE TANKS"Berserkers say "WE ARE AOE TANKS"Having been a Zerker and a Ranger I understand the pain of the apparent nerf believe me. Basically what is happening to the base builds of the fighter classes though are not nerfs. They are a rebalance. Yes some classes (including Zerkers to) are going to need to relearn their class to an extent because how they maintain aggro will change. We'll have to rework AA trees etc. But for the long term health of the game and ALL of the classes in the game isn't it better to have the classes balanced to a greater extent, even if it means giving up something (like some of my zerkers dps which I have used to hold aggro until now)?Ultimately there are only 2 defining roles when tanking (outside of MT and OT) and thats Single target and AoE. Since there are 4 plate tanks that means no single tank should monopolize one specific role . While it may not be the intent of all on this thread it definitely looks like what some are saying is that Pally's should be THE AoE tank. <shrug>

Glerin

11-16-2008, 08:16 PM

what people fail to realize is that theres' 6x different tank classes ingame, ATM its like this:Single target: Guard,Monk,BruiserArea of Effect<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />aladin, Berzerker, Shadowknightthese are just classes, not order "best to worst"with the to be changes ther will be 4x ST tanks, and 2x AoE tanksSoE will not nerf guards to a level / improve paladins to a level, where it will be so even between the two classes that your hard to pick which one you prefer, other then playerskill involvedThey have put some attenttion to our key issues (namely, our heals being far to insufficient), I'm ATM happy with how the class looks with the heal change, only thing that would bring me to exctatic joy would be all our heals becomming wards, and LoH line % based like the monk's mend abilityNOTE THIS IS NOTHING I CAN CONFIRM:I've been told by some of the top end paladins that Aeralick have stated himself, that even with the rebalancing, guardians will have the upper edge for MT'ing, and this will leave paladins unwanted on raids

denmom

11-16-2008, 08:59 PM

<cite>Glerin wrote:</cite><blockquote>NOTE THIS IS NOTHING I CAN CONFIRM:I've been told by some of the top end paladins that Aeralick have stated himself, that even with the rebalancing, guardians will have the upper edge for MT'ing, and this will leave paladins unwanted on raids</blockquote>I went looking since I can access beta forums...this is the closest I found.Aeralik fromTank Rebalancing is great, however does it solve the raid issue? thread in beta forum. Date: 9/29From a raid perspective part of that issue is making encounters which cater to the different tank classes and use multiple tanks. Will we see raids with all 6 specific tanks? Probably not when people min/max for raid positions. Have some aoe encounters to make the berserker and sks viable. Single target stuff the guardian and paladin excel a bit more. The brawlers then make a good dps and off tank combination with raid wide buffs. So in all right now as the first part of tank balancing, we are looking to make sure people have the tools to get the job done. That means looking at survivability and making sure everyone has some form of snap aggro. From there we can tweak desirability a bit and overall dps. Not everyone is going to be the same but the focus is to make sure people have similar tools to get the job done. Then from there hopefully its more of a focus on finding a good player for your raid and not so much recruiting only one particular tank because they are so far ahead of the others.From beta forum, Guardian Aggro on BETA thread. Date: 11/10<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>A post was made about guardian agro on beta, and below is the response given.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fighter changes are a 2 step process. The first part is to get most of the achievement and skill changes out of the way which is the major part to most classes. Part 2 looks at the aggro management of the classes and starts the shirgt to a more threat oriented viewpoint and more emphasis on the tank themselves holding aggro rather than through other means. This is probably the more difficult part because hate transfers, hate gain, hate multipliers, etc all need to be looked at and adjusted appropriately. This part will happen once the expansion ships and once we have more to say about it a post will be made.</blockquote>So, basically our hate is not on par with other plate tanks and we need to suck it up till they figure out how to fix it...serious BS</blockquote>Where did I say that guardians are not on par with other tanks. You have some of the best hate tools in game with reinforcement, quick rescue, along with 2 hate position skill and a hate over time ability on your achievement tree. Combine those in a pickup group with a hate transfer, dirge or coercer and you should have all the tools at your disposal. We will continue to monitor things though and if the situation warrants I can tweak a few things to help out between updates.