RAIDING MONKS OBSOLETE IN TSO - IMO - [Archive]

mr23sgte

10-30-2008, 06:01 PM

IMO this is the worst AA's we have seen yet and we have now been surpassed by every fighter. My recomendation is betray or roll a new class. The only good points are we got the stun removed from our stun stance and the Brawler Strength Line was reworked, so you can now use it with weapons.Beta Monks have posted (aka complained+gave ideas) for weeks with no changes ever occurring...........Monk Balance FAIL!!!To Start:Devastation Fist: 1) Stifle removed, 2) 25% damage on heroics Removed and spell now has upgades Adept III, Master for levels for each tiers. 5 minute Recast now - 4 Min 28 Seconds if you spec Brawler agility line.Monk Raidwide was nerfed from 14% to 9.8%AA's are garbage, here are a few posts by others in a nutshell this sums it up well:<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=43"></a>Yeah most of the AAs are truly horrible in this x-pac.Not getting into the Generals AAs or the Fighters AAs.Brawler Tree.Taunt Increase : Fine but needs to apply to Dragonrage aswell.Raid Buff : Fine.AoE Damage : Rubbish, 15% damage increase is crap and the recast reduction is half what it needs to be. Needs to be atleast 5% damage increase, 2% crit increase, 0.2 second recast reduction per point.Shocking Hands : This thing is so laughable its sad, 15% dmg increase which is like an extra 30 dmg per trigger, oooh. Well I most spend points on that waste of space. Needs atleast 5% dmg increase, 1 extra trigger per point and 5 points makes it group/raid wide.Deflection Boost : Always good.Deflection Boost on Mid and Def stances: Fine.End Ability : How many damm times most it be said 50% triggers suck before you listen? Needs 30% of Max HP and a recast reduction.Monk Tree.Peel Increase : Peel needs any help why? Take it out and replace it with DPS or Utility.Protection of the Phoenix : Oh come on this AA couldn't be more of a waste if you tried. If you want to give us a Group AoE Blocker Fine, just don't tack it onto to our Group Feign... Take it out and Try Again.Bite of the Cobra : Oooh another small increase to 1 CA, wow. Running out of ideas now are we? It needs to imply to ALL Combat Arts. Otherwise take it out and give us something worth a flying monkey.Focused Follow Up : Doesn't do what it says on the Tin. It doesn't add an additional Higher Damage Attack when all 5 Hit. Before you spends AA in this. the Art looks something like this.300-500 Attack, followed by 4 250-350 Attacks. After the AA it looks like 400-700, followed by 5 250-350 attacks. (yes I made the numbers up as an example).Mitigating Blows : Fine but it needs to remove the stun when you spend 1 point.Mediative Healing : Who the hell knows, I can't think up anyway to test this AA to make sure it even works let alone find out what it does. Just change it into 3% of Dmg is turned into heals per point.Bob and Weave : Just awful, we don't need an inferior Tsunami on a longer recast. Replace it with DPS or Utility.Hidden Openings : Really why do we need yet another single target snap aggro.Though I don't know why I bothered posting this, you'll just ignore it, like you have been for weeks.And another poster opinion: Peaceful Deception - Reduction of peel and increase on hate from it.In my opinion, this aa should add group taunt components. With TSO, we already have too many single target taunts. What we really need is group taunt enhancement. Not to say, most TSO content is multple encounters. Protection Of The Phoenix - Lowers recast of group fd.Junk, absolutely junk aa. It's useless for raid and group content. Seriously, if you need to fd your group every few minutes, you are in a horrible group. Get a better group >>>>> this aa.Bite of the Cobra + Focused FollowupI am not sure the real amount increased by those aa. Though, the dps gain is tiny since those CA base damage is not much.We can get maybe 5 dps or 10 dps boost overall. Horrible imo. Mitgating BlowsThe idea of this aa is ok. But the reuse timer is too long. With spending 5 aa, the reuse timer should be shorten.Meditative HealingIt's an average aa for raiding monk but it's junk, another big junk aa for casual monks. The chance of getting hit over 50% hp in group content is so tiny. The threshold should be lowered to 30%-35% to make it usable in practical. Bob and WeaveIs it a joke? It's the worst class aa comparing to all other fighters. What's the point to have this aa? especially it lasts only 12 sec with 4 minutes reuse timer. The duration needs to be extended to 30 sec or reuse timer lowered to 1 minute.Hidden OpeningsIt's another junk aa. Sigh. Sorry to say that but it is really a junk. Why?We can reduce the reuse timer of rescue and we get another new single target taunt from the end aa of fighter line. We have too many single target taunt abilities in this expansion and 75% of group content in this expansion is multiple encounters. Monk has worst aoe damage, least and worst group taunt ability all over the fighters. I can foresee TSO is a disaster for most monks as a group tank since they are not going to hold aggro in most multiple encounters. Also, monk gets little to nothing dps boost from TSO aa, when a group is LF dpser, monk is the worst option as dpser. I highly recommend that this aa should be changed to a group aoe with similar damage and stun component.Overall, monk aa is a huge design failure. For designers, you want to classify tanks to single target tanks and mutiple targets tanks, don't forget that mutliple targets tanks can use their multiple targets taunt/aa abilities on single target as well. It makes them overpowered in both single target and mutiple targets in aggro management. Couching

Orthureon

10-30-2008, 06:33 PM

Agree, the ONLY good thing out of it all is the stun removed from Iron Stance. [Removed for Content]. Look at the SK AAs they are going to be godly.

BChizzle

10-30-2008, 07:03 PM

Co-Sign. I am very upset at the devs and one particular devs lack of concern for our class. We are now the worst class in this game, this could have been avoided but they didn't listen despite a very strong outpouring of feedback. Prepare to betray or play another class, they killed monk.

ShinGoku

10-30-2008, 07:09 PM

This person isn't over reacting. Its all true.

Buttcliffe

10-30-2008, 08:05 PM

Monks are going to be the new redheaded stepchild of TSO.... we got screwed SOE. I had my monk a bruiser for 2 years, and got tired of getting the shaft, so i made him a monk. Now i'm once again getting the shaft.SOE, pay some attention to your avoidance class, or take it out of the game. Since eq2 has opened you've demonstrated you clearly have no clue how this class is supposed to fit into your grand scheme of things (lol @ SOE actually having a grand-scheme/plan on anything, it's a giant plug-and-play game).This being said, I'm tired of being defecated on by the company who's game i pay (!?!?) to play. The class/archetype i chose has been abused and neglected from SOE in regards to PVE and PVP since i started playing.Thank god my sub's running out soon and Darkfall's beta will save me from this maelstrom of coded caca.F U sony online entertainment

Siatfallen

10-30-2008, 08:08 PM

/co-sign.I guess it's time to go and level a useful class now.

Mogzilla

10-30-2008, 08:21 PM

You guys are seriously over reacting, the only thing that is different is that your RW got a slight nerf and the bruiser one got a slight boost.Considering you already had the best RW buff in the game, its hardly a big deal.Also the nerfed uncontested avoidence from everything but stances and sheilds, both brawlers are getting a singnifcant tanking boost from this in comparison to other classes.Considering that you guys pretty much owned bruisers for an entire expansion and you are almost twice our numbers at level 80 because of this. Its just a rebalancing, you are no long hands down the best brawler, deal with it.

Buttcliffe

10-30-2008, 08:33 PM

just cause SOE has s h it all over your class since conception, don't come in here spreading your misery and trying to keep us down in the caca with you Mog.

BChizzle

10-30-2008, 08:36 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys are seriously over reacting, the only thing that is different is that your RW got a slight nerf and the bruiser one got a slight boost.Considering you already had the best RW buff in the game, its hardly a big deal.Also the nerfed uncontested avoidence from everything but stances and sheilds, both brawlers are getting a singnifcant tanking boost from this in comparison to other classes.Considering that you guys pretty much owned bruisers for an entire expansion and you are almost twice our numbers at level 80 because of this. Its just a rebalancing, you are no long hands down the best brawler, deal with it.</blockquote>This is such a misconception, monks were only better then bruisers for the short time until Peel got nerfed, the mythical only cemented the deal. Just because guilds were slow to react doesn't mean the monk was better for the whole expansion, in fact bruiser was better for longer during RoK.

Mogzilla

10-30-2008, 08:42 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys are seriously over reacting, the only thing that is different is that your RW got a slight nerf and the bruiser one got a slight boost.Considering you already had the best RW buff in the game, its hardly a big deal.Also the nerfed uncontested avoidence from everything but stances and sheilds, both brawlers are getting a singnifcant tanking boost from this in comparison to other classes.Considering that you guys pretty much owned bruisers for an entire expansion and you are almost twice our numbers at level 80 because of this. Its just a rebalancing, you are no long hands down the best brawler, deal with it.</blockquote>This is such a misconception, monks were only better then bruisers for the short time until Peel got nerfed, the mythical only cemented the deal. Just because guilds were slow to react doesn't mean the monk was better for the whole expansion, in fact bruiser was better for longer during RoK.</blockquote>They myth is irreleveant, if your guild can get you your myth, the clicky tsuanmi like ability on the bruiser myth is not that important.And please you must be joking about bruisers being the more desired brawler on raids, not a single raiding guild on my server wanted a bruiser for anything.Also if you go over the the world wide recruitment forum on EQ2 flames, all of the brawler recruitment for all of ROK was monks, dont try to deny it.You RW took a slight nerf and the bruiser one got a slight buff, now the classes are more balance and both classes got a huge buff with the nerf to uncontested avoidence.Now the brawler raiding world is no long monopolized by monks, this is a good thing for class balance.

BChizzle

10-30-2008, 09:38 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys are seriously over reacting, the only thing that is different is that your RW got a slight nerf and the bruiser one got a slight boost.Considering you already had the best RW buff in the game, its hardly a big deal.Also the nerfed uncontested avoidence from everything but stances and sheilds, both brawlers are getting a singnifcant tanking boost from this in comparison to other classes.Considering that you guys pretty much owned bruisers for an entire expansion and you are almost twice our numbers at level 80 because of this. Its just a rebalancing, you are no long hands down the best brawler, deal with it.</blockquote>This is such a misconception, monks were only better then bruisers for the short time until Peel got nerfed, the mythical only cemented the deal. Just because guilds were slow to react doesn't mean the monk was better for the whole expansion, in fact bruiser was better for longer during RoK.</blockquote>They myth is irreleveant, if your guild can get you your myth, the clicky tsuanmi like ability on the bruiser myth is not that important.And please you must be joking about bruisers being the more desired brawler on raids, not a single raiding guild on my server wanted a bruiser for anything.Also if you go over the the world wide recruitment forum on EQ2 flames, all of the brawler recruitment for all of ROK was monks, dont try to deny it.You RW took a slight nerf and the bruiser one got a slight buff, now the classes are more balance and both classes got a huge buff with the nerf to uncontested avoidence.Now the brawler raiding world is no long monopolized by monks, this is a good thing for class balance.</blockquote>My guild ran with a bruiser all through RoK, maybe you just werent good enough?

mr23sgte

10-30-2008, 09:49 PM

Xanrn

10-31-2008, 12:50 AM

Your seriously going to argue this was rebalancing?How the hell is putting us at the bottom of the Heap [Removed for Content] rebalancing.Our AA are a bunch of crap.Who gives a crap if they nerfed plate uncontested avoidance, they won't suffer from it.We are not getting a signifant tanking boost, we are still behind Plate Tanks, we simply now actually have more bloody avoidance for the first time in years. Anyway that matters what? We hardly need help tanking Heroics and we bloody well aren't going to be tanking raids in any significant numbers.We have twice your numbers at level 80? Yeah and how many are actual raiding mains, because my guild has aload of alt lvl 80 mythicaled Monk alts. You honestly think with this crap, the numbers are going to rebalance? Hahaha yeah right.This is not rebalancing, this is making us bottom of the heap again.

Jetfist

10-31-2008, 01:41 AM

without the right gear monks are the worst tank for group mobswithout the right gear we cant hold agro while other tanks out there can hold with crap gearsnot all monks are raid gearedRW buff is only love we have please leave it as it is dont nerf it againIF YOU NERF MONK UR NERFING THE WHOLE RAID FORCE including your ASSASSINIF YOU DESTROY THE CLASS UR DESTROYING UR INCOME TOOIF YOU WANT TO NERF MONK... FINE GIVE US BACK OUR PLAT AND WE WILL BETRAY TO BRUISER/agree with Brother Couching

Buttcliffe

10-31-2008, 02:22 AM

SOE has become too accustomed to crapping on brawlers. What gives?

Damurderer

10-31-2008, 03:02 AM

<cite>ShinGoku wrote:</cite><blockquote>This person isn't over reacting. Its all true.</blockquote>QFE.The AA's in this ex-pac are horrendous. I already started leveling a zerker.

Tazdrag

10-31-2008, 03:04 AM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys are seriously over reacting, the only thing that is different is that your RW got a slight nerf and the bruiser one got a slight boost.Considering you already had the best RW buff in the game, its hardly a big deal.Also the nerfed uncontested avoidence from everything but stances and sheilds, both brawlers are getting a singnifcant tanking boost from this in comparison to other classes.Considering that you guys pretty much owned bruisers for an entire expansion and you are almost twice our numbers at level 80 because of this. Its just a rebalancing, you are no long hands down the best brawler, deal with it.</blockquote>Over reacting ????Brawlers get one raid wide buff, the other 4 fighter classes get 2 raid wide buffs. So you would think that all things being equal that the brawler rw has to be twice as good, as who the hell needs a class that only has one buff that helps out others in the raid especialy when it is now no longer as good as it was. It is hard enough for brawlers to get in top end raid guilds as it isEquality would be if they are gonna nerf our rw and don't try to argue that is not what they did, then they should give brawlers another raid wide to compensate and bring us on level terms with the other tanksCheersKnight Captain KarakkaLucan DLere

Ocello

10-31-2008, 03:46 AM

I am speechless. Why nerf the monk? It is one of the most beloved classes in teh MMORPG/fantasy genre. Our raidwide buff was godly, maybe even OP. But nerfing something by 30%??? Then making other fighter buffs godly?I also rolled a new zerker when I saw how their AA's were working. Their raidwide buff now owns ours, as does the SK raidwide buff. IDK what the bruiser or Pally bring in now for their raidwide buff. I'm sure it's great though. Unless we became even as far as taking damage goes, I can't see how this xpack is going to be good for us. And you KNOW that isn't happening.And I find it comical that our BEST new aa is basically a "fix" for a spell that has been useless since we got it. Thanks guys, you mean I really get to USE a spell after 4 years??? Gee, thanks!

jeffdo

10-31-2008, 04:55 AM

Devastation Fist: 1) Stifle removed, 2) 25% damage on heroics Removed and spell now has upgades Adept III, Master for levels for each tiers. 5 minute Recast now - 4 Min 28 Seconds if you spec Brawler agility line.Can you clarify what you mean by 25 percent damage on heroics removed? Does this mean it won't do anything on heroics or that it will do full damage?Also did they say anything about what the changes to STR would be?Lastly can you apply any of these extra aa's to your current trees? And get another 20 in the brawler line?

BChizzle

10-31-2008, 05:08 AM

<cite>jeffdo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Devastation Fist: 1) Stifle removed, 2) 25% damage on heroics Removed and spell now has upgades Adept III, Master for levels for each tiers. 5 minute Recast now - 4 Min 28 Seconds if you spec Brawler agility line.Can you clarify what you mean by 25 percent damage on heroics removed? Does this mean it won't do anything on heroics or that it will do full damage?Also did they say anything about what the changes to STR would be?Lastly can you apply any of these extra aa's to your current trees? And get another 20 in the brawler line?</blockquote>It will hit heroics from 6-10k no stifle 2 more minutes added to the recast. In comparision before it was nerfed we could hit a mob for 60k with 3 min recast. STR can now be used with weaps its nerfed some. No you cannot use more aa in brawler line the 60 new aa's will be in the new aa tree.

Siatfallen

10-31-2008, 06:17 AM

The str line adjustment is the one good thing SoE did this expansion. Why are we not cheering over it? Oh, I dunno, maybe because bruisers get it as well. There's just about zero reason to take a monk over a bruiser at present. Unless you really like group FD.In any case, the adjustments (unless they change it again, they have been tweaking a bit recently) leaves the line as follows:1: 4 str per rank. As it used to be.2: Pretty much as it used to be. Lower damage maybe?3: 3% double attack per rank.4: +2 chance to deflect per rank - note that avoidance bonuses were changed. This is NOT 16% unconstested avoidance at 8 points. It is however a major tanking boost all the same.5: Chi. As it used to be, but base recast was lowered to 10 minutes (which means recast will be 6 minutes 40 seconds, because it lowers its own recast).All in all, the str line has gone from a useless joke to something I'd have to consider mandatory hands down.Add in a full wis line (for crane flock; more AE content this expansion makes this a no-brainer), and crit from the int line. That will leave 5 points to spread out. I guess bruisers would want ambidexterity as well (so would I for that matter, but more so for them).Yes, this should be a pretty decent DPS boost. Which is going to be sorely needed, because we get only jokes for DPS upgrades in the tSO tree. Even given this, I do not see us keeping up with the rogues DPSwise - they'll pull ahead even more.

Dorieon

10-31-2008, 06:36 AM

I'm not really a 'sky is falling' kinda guy but BChizzle has basically hit the nail on the head here. We didn't lose 'all that much' but, when you factor in what was 'slightly adjusted' for us and what was upgraded for all the other tank classes; we got left behind.ALL of the new monk AA's are lackluster. Even the stun mit buff.Anyway, not sure if I'll betray. I've been thinking about it for months but I have been a monk since before DoF and would just hate to do it. But, when your sister class can dps and tank better and has equal or better utility...well, there's having pride in your class and then there's just being stubborn. If I betray it will be after I get the first 30-40 AA's. Because I still see us as fairly even until the TSO monk/bruiser AA's. And it also gives me a little more time for masters and gear and some time for any 'slight adjustments' to be made.Oh, and if you were a monk for the raidwide....the bruiser raidwide owns the monk raidwide now imo.

Mogzilla

10-31-2008, 10:27 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>.My guild ran with a bruiser all through RoK, maybe you just werent good enough?</blockquote>So your guild had a bruiser before Rok and you kept him, umm yeah that proves nothing.If he left would you have specifically recruited another bruiser to replace him? I doubt it.If you look at the recruitment forum on EQ2 flames most of the brawler recruitment was for a monk. If fact I can not recall a single thread that said Raid guild LF bruiser, it was either monk or brawler (50/50)How many bruisers betrayed at the start of RoK?How many bruisers are there compared to monks at level 80?Um yeah.Anyway I am not going to argue with you guys, I think you are overreacting, the expac has not even hit the stores yet and you are already saying monks are the most useless class in the game.I dont see how you can go from one of 3 holy trinity of tank classes ( guardian MT, paladin OT, monk was the best RoK raid tank set up) to the worse class in the next.In all honestly SK, bruisers, and zerkers needed a slightly better boost in the expac because they were being completely overshadowed by thier sister classes for all of ROK, this is a fact you can not deny.

Ocello

10-31-2008, 10:55 AM

Ok and for real, the bruiser raidwide does NOT own ours. No way. Even nerfed, 10% cast speed and 24 haste is still godly. My Mystic still uses the SoF robe for this very reason.And no.2 this game is based on 95% player perception. Don't say we are teh worst class on the game, other classes might hear it and believe it. True we didnt get the upgrades other classes got, but by Gosh our raidwide buff is still super pwnzors and I'll be dmnd if I see a bruiser out-dps me. They have always been better tanks (especially since Mythicals came out) but I don't see them passing us up as far as DPS goes. And don't think we are brought on raids to be super tanks, we are utility tanks, nothing is different here.The avoidance changes change is nothing but good news for us. Shields have pwned us for too long, this change is so far overdue it is sickening. But the first time i see a mob strike through my Tsunami, I'm calling the police because that will be the day I kill somebody. Surely this doesn't get to live.Oh and you are forgetting that the STR line benefits US more than bruisers because of our haste. Faster autoattacks = more double attacks. Period.

BChizzle

10-31-2008, 11:00 AM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>.My guild ran with a bruiser all through RoK, maybe you just werent good enough?</blockquote>So your guild had a bruiser before Rok and you kept him, umm yeah that proves nothing.If he left would you have specifically recruited another bruiser to replace him? I doubt it.If you look at the recruitment forum on EQ2 flames most of the brawler recruitment was for a monk. If fact I can not recall a single thread that said Raid guild LF bruiser, it was either monk or brawler (50/50)How many bruisers betrayed at the start of RoK?How many bruisers are there compared to monks at level 80?Um yeah.Anyway I am not going to argue with you guys, I think you are overreacting, the expac has not even hit the stores yet and you are already saying monks are the most useless class in the game.I dont see how you can go from one of 3 holy trinity of tank classes ( guardian MT, paladin OT, monk was the best RoK raid tank set up) to the worse class in the next.In all honestly SK, bruisers, and zerkers needed a slightly better boost in the expac because they were being completely overshadowed by thier sister classes for all of ROK, this is a fact you can not deny.</blockquote>Sorry zerk was the best off tank in rok. Do you even raid?

BChizzle

10-31-2008, 11:01 AM

<cite>Kamaala@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok and for real, the bruiser raidwide does NOT own ours. No way. Even nerfed, 10% cast speed and 24 haste is still godly. My Mystic still uses the SoF robe for this very reason.And no.2 this game is based on 95% player perception. Don't say we are teh worst class on the game, other classes might hear it and believe it. True we didnt get the upgrades other classes got, but by Gosh our raidwide buff is still super pwnzors and I'll be dmnd if I see a bruiser out-dps me. They have always been better tanks (especially since Mythicals came out) but I don't see them passing us up as far as DPS goes. And don't think we are brought on raids to be super tanks, we are utility tanks, nothing is different here.The avoidance changes change is nothing but good news for us. Shields have pwned us for too long, this change is so far overdue it is sickening. But the first time i see a mob strike through my Tsunami, I'm calling the police because that will be the day I kill somebody. Surely this doesn't get to live.Oh and you are forgetting that the STR line benefits US more than bruisers because of our haste. Faster autoattacks = more double attacks. Period.</blockquote>Its going through to live, and guess what bruisers get 2 tsunami's one with a shorter recast, and oh they will out dps you.

Xanrn

10-31-2008, 12:05 PM

Yes a Bruiser will always out DPS a Monk unless inferior gear or inferior player.Also the STR change doesn't help that much, I have to spec out of Int and into Str, swapping 18% crit for 21% Double Attack. Because I can't give up Altruism and I am not giving up the only decent AoE we have.We are not overreacting the Monk Tree is pathetic, we get no DPS boosts, no Utility boosts and the tanking boosts are something we will use once a raid.Your acting like they didn't upgrade all the others Fighters tanking abilities aswell, all of them are still ahead of Monks. A couple of Minor nerfs did nothing to change that.Yes we know the expansion pack isn't out yet, fool. Thats why we are trying to get them to fix it before it goes live.

circusgirl

10-31-2008, 12:09 PM

They're nerfing dev fist and mindful? *cry*Dev fist isn't overpowered. But its HELLA fun. Nerfing it just makes brawlers a little bit less exciting. It won't kill the class, but it'll kill a lot of the fun. Mindful, on the other hand, is a spell we need...its two thirds of the reason we make it onto raids. Sad.

Mogzilla

10-31-2008, 12:48 PM

<cite>Kamaala@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok and for real, the bruiser raidwide does NOT own ours. No way. Even nerfed, 10% cast speed and 24 haste is still godly. My Mystic still uses the SoF robe for this very reason.And no.2 this game is based on 95% player perception. Don't say we are teh worst class on the game, other classes might hear it and believe it. True we didnt get the upgrades other classes got, but by Gosh our raidwide buff is still super pwnzors and I'll be dmnd if I see a bruiser out-dps me. They have always been better tanks (especially since Mythicals came out) but I don't see them passing us up as far as DPS goes. And don't think we are brought on raids to be super tanks, we are utility tanks, nothing is different here.The avoidance changes change is nothing but good news for us. Shields have pwned us for too long, this change is so far overdue it is sickening. But the first time i see a mob strike through my Tsunami, I'm calling the police because that will be the day I kill somebody. Surely this doesn't get to live.Oh and you are forgetting that the STR line benefits US more than bruisers because of our haste. Faster autoattacks = more double attacks. Period.</blockquote>Exactly.I forgot the that every single kos brawler line except the agi one benefits monks much more.The two brawlers are more balanced in reguards to raiding instead of monks just flat out owning bruisers.

Mogzilla

10-31-2008, 12:52 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry zerk was the best off tank in rok. Do you even raid?</blockquote>Yes I do raid.There was a poll on flames a while back as to which was the best OT, zerk or paladin.Paladin won by a considerable margin.

Goldburg

10-31-2008, 01:09 PM

TSO looks to be the time my bruiser gets shelved as a carpenter/question mark hunter while I go and level up either my SK, pally or guard. They fixed one thing we've been complaining about for years now (the str line) yet all the rest of the tanks get buffed still being way ahead of the brawlers. It's a sad sad day for us. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />

BChizzle

10-31-2008, 01:17 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry zerk was the best off tank in rok. Do you even raid?</blockquote>Yes I do raid.There was a poll on flames a while back as to which was the best OT, zerk or paladin.Paladin won by a considerable margin.</blockquote>Last I heard the best raid guild out there rolled with a zerk, I wonder why? BTW good morning to you, best of luck on finding a clue today!

BChizzle

10-31-2008, 01:18 PM

<cite>Goldburg wrote:</cite><blockquote>TSO looks to be the time my bruiser gets shelved as a carpenter/question mark hunter while I go and level up either my SK, pally or guard. They fixed one thing we've been complaining about for years now (the str line) yet all the rest of the tanks get buffed still being way ahead of the brawlers. It's a sad sad day for us. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Bruisers are going to be leet! Don't worry about it.

Khandor

10-31-2008, 01:31 PM

Wow, so let me get this straight. I've played a monk since launch and have loved it, despite the fact that we have been getting lower and lower. I left EQ2 for a while due to guild issues and played a shaman on WoW, which got nerfed to hell and back and became utterly useless in the game. I come back to EQ2 after several months just to watch as we get peel and the awesome mythical, and then have those nerfed.. and now we're getting even worse? I don't wanna re-roll, I have invested a lot of time into this character.. I mean.. A LOT OF TIME.. way more than any other character/game I've played in my life. I really love my monk, but I already have a hell of a time finding groups that can find a use for me, even though I have really good gear.But now with all these addons I am hoping that it's merely something that will be changed by the time TSO comes out.. I really don't wanna play another class just so I can enjoy the game.. I wanna know where the devs really think a monk fits, are we DPS? are we a tank? I know we have utility.. but it seems like the devs can't even make up their minds either and we just keep getting worse. It's getting to the point where the only thing monks have is the soloability, and that doesn't mean jack in a GROUP. Which is ESSENTIAL for a good 80% of the game. I'm already having to fight other classes for MY gear because the devs think it's cute to hand out gi's with brawler stats to everyone and their mother. Now I gotta fight even harder for groups just to accomplish quests/dungeons? That's ridiculous. Ever since the agility nerf a long long time ago, I really feel that monk tankability has just dwindled more and more and more since then, the devs should just make a decision, if they don't wanna help us tank AT ALL, then at least give us DPS abilities, not all this useless crap!sadface monk. :<

Mogzilla

10-31-2008, 01:36 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry zerk was the best off tank in rok. Do you even raid?</blockquote>Yes I do raid.There was a poll on flames a while back as to which was the best OT, zerk or paladin.Paladin won by a considerable margin.</blockquote>Last I heard the best raid guild out there rolled with a zerk, I wonder why? BTW good morning to you, best of luck on finding a clue today!</blockquote>Lol, always resort to insults when your argument = fail.So what if one raiding guild uses a zerker, who know how long he has been in that guild nor who cares.Not guild is gonna dump a good tank just to get another of a different class.The poll was far more accurate, as it reflects peoples real opinions not comparsions of this person against that person.Paladins won that polls by a nice margin for sure.And was only part of the point in ROK raid gameguardians owned zerkersmonks owned bruiserspaladins owned Sk's

Khandor

10-31-2008, 01:45 PM

anyways, back to talking about monks..

BChizzle

10-31-2008, 01:55 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry zerk was the best off tank in rok. Do you even raid?</blockquote>Yes I do raid.There was a poll on flames a while back as to which was the best OT, zerk or paladin.Paladin won by a considerable margin.</blockquote>Last I heard the best raid guild out there rolled with a zerk, I wonder why? BTW good morning to you, best of luck on finding a clue today!</blockquote>Lol, always resort to insults when your argument = fail.So what if one raiding guild uses a zerker, who know how long he has been in that guild nor who cares.Not guild is gonna dump a good tank just to get another of a different class.The poll was far more accurate, as it reflects peoples real opinions not comparsions of this person against that person.Paladins won that polls by a nice margin for sure.And was only part of the point in ROK raid gameguardians owned zerkersmonks owned bruiserspaladins owned Sk's</blockquote>Once again I will point out to you except for the short time in RoK where peel was OP bruisers were superior to monks. My guild also uses a zerk to OT thats two top guilds care to keep going cause can do it all day. Fact is 2nd warrior > paly.

Mogzilla

10-31-2008, 02:35 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Once again I will point out to you except for the short time in RoK where peel was OP bruisers were superior to monks. My guild also uses a zerk to OT thats two top guilds care to keep going cause can do it all day. Fact is 2nd warrior > paly.</blockquote>Let me break it down for you on both brawler before they get their mythicals and after they get their mythcials.Lets remember here of the 100 or so bruisers on my server that are level 80, only 5-6 of them have their myths and all of them except 2 either bought their myth or are alts. 5-6% is hardly a way to balance a class.Pre myth:Tanking: monk > bruiser, tsuami owns anything a bruiser gets defensively without myth, peel was superior for the expansion with little to no linked mobs.DPS: a very very slight edge to bruiserUtility: Monk all the way, hands down the best RW buff in the game, the largest single target heal in the game, peel & tsuami to save the raid from wipingPost myth:Tanking: Pretty much even with the clicky bruiser myth, maybee a very slight edge to bruiser with retribution of stoneDPS: still hardly any difference all, nothing to make a stink aboutUtility: Monks still complete own bruisers with the best raid wide buff in the game and the largest single target heal in the game.As far as the zerker/paladin argument, the polls said paladin, you can have your own opinion but many opinions > your single opinion

BChizzle

10-31-2008, 03:32 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Once again I will point out to you except for the short time in RoK where peel was OP bruisers were superior to monks. My guild also uses a zerk to OT thats two top guilds care to keep going cause can do it all day. Fact is 2nd warrior > paly.</blockquote>Let me break it down for you on both brawler before they get their mythicals and after they get their mythcials.Lets remember here of the 100 or so bruisers on my server that are level 80, only 5-6 of them have their myths and all of them except 2 either bought their myth or are alts. 5-6% is hardly a way to balance a class.Pre myth:Tanking: monk > bruiser, tsuami owns anything a bruiser gets defensively without myth, peel was superior for the expansion with little to no linked mobs.DPS: a very very slight edge to bruiserUtility: Monk all the way, hands down the best RW buff in the game, the largest single target heal in the game, peel & tsuami to save the raid from wipingPost myth:Tanking: Pretty much even with the clicky bruiser myth, maybee a very slight edge to bruiser with retribution of stoneDPS: still hardly any difference all, nothing to make a stink aboutUtility: Monks still complete own bruisers with the best raid wide buff in the game and the largest single target heal in the game.As far as the zerker/paladin argument, the polls said paladin, you can have your own opinion but many opinions > your single opinion</blockquote>Honestly there is no sense in arguing with you. You are not at my level when it comes to understanding the brawler class. Come back in a few years.

Mogzilla

10-31-2008, 03:49 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly there is no sense in arguing with you. You are not at my level when it comes to understanding the brawler class. Come back in a few years.</blockquote>Well since you can not seem to respond with anything besides a lame insult I will take that as a sign that I won the argument, thanks.Also if bruisers were so superior in ROK as you claim, then why did you not betray?

BChizzle

10-31-2008, 04:26 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly there is no sense in arguing with you. You are not at my level when it comes to understanding the brawler class. Come back in a few years.</blockquote>Well since you can not seem to respond with anything besides a lame insult I will take that as a sign that I won the argument, thanks.Also if bruisers were so superior in ROK as you claim, then why did you not betray?</blockquote>I didn't betray because I am and always will be a monk. I think betraying is the dumbest thing about this game, go and reroll its not hard to get to 80 is how I feel. I did have a bruiser alt for a while I deleted him though. And as far as winning any argument you have no argument other then displaying your ignorance in a place that really doesn't want you here. Go back to the bruiser forums and cry about how you are such a horrible class and can't get in a raid guild and get laughed at by the rest of the bruisers who don't seem to have an issue. Go talk to the top bruiser Xenobe ask him which class is better.

Mogzilla

10-31-2008, 04:30 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly there is no sense in arguing with you. You are not at my level when it comes to understanding the brawler class. Come back in a few years.</blockquote>Well since you can not seem to respond with anything besides a lame insult I will take that as a sign that I won the argument, thanks.Also if bruisers were so superior in ROK as you claim, then why did you not betray?</blockquote>I didn't betray because I am and always will be a monk. I think betraying is the dumbest thing about this game, go and reroll its not hard to get to 80 is how I feel. I did have a bruiser alt for a while I deleted him though. And as far as winning any argument you have no argument other then displaying your ignorance in a place that really doesn't want you here. Go back to the bruiser forums and cry about how you are such a horrible class and can't get in a raid guild and get laughed at by the rest of the bruisers who don't seem to have an issue. 1) I am in a raiding guild, so epic fail2) The bruiser forum is full of threads regaurding our lack of raid desirablity, so again epic failGo talk to the top bruiser Xenobe ask him which class is better.It doesnt matter what he thinks, it only matter what the guild and raid leaders think, and for most of the through ROK monk > bruiser, sorry its just a fact.</blockquote>

BChizzle

10-31-2008, 04:59 PM

It is probably because the bruisers were too busy crying instead of proving themselves, at the raw basics bruisers just own monks in every single way and and an amazing class. Yes people liked the monk raidwide, guess what it doesn't really make that huge of a difference.

Xanrn

10-31-2008, 06:38 PM

Mog bugger off really, you don't see us Trolling all the Bruiser threads trying to get the Devs to ignore Bruisers, so please have the common courtesy to stay the hell away from Monk threads when you have no clue what you are talking about.

Siatfallen

10-31-2008, 10:00 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly there is no sense in arguing with you. You are not at my level when it comes to understanding the brawler class. Come back in a few years.</blockquote>Well since you can not seem to respond with anything besides a lame insult I will take that as a sign that I won the argument, thanks.Also if bruisers were so superior in ROK as you claim, then why did you not betray?</blockquote>I didn't betray because I am and always will be a monk. I think betraying is the dumbest thing about this game, go and reroll its not hard to get to 80 is how I feel. I did have a bruiser alt for a while I deleted him though. And as far as winning any argument you have no argument other then displaying your ignorance in a place that really doesn't want you here. Go back to the bruiser forums and cry about how you are such a horrible class and can't get in a raid guild and get laughed at by the rest of the bruisers who don't seem to have an issue. 1) I am in a raiding guild, so epic fail2) The bruiser forum is full of threads regaurding our lack of raid desirablity, so again epic failGo talk to the top bruiser Xenobe ask him which class is better.It doesnt matter what he thinks, it only matter what the guild and raid leaders think, and for most of the through ROK monk > bruiser, sorry its just a fact.</blockquote></blockquote>So, let me get this straight.A raid leader asks his raiding monk, in one of the leading guilds in this game, to go and betray to a bruiser, because more tanking ability is needed... And this is not an argument for anything, because you do not believe in it, and hence it's not true.But a poll (open for any ignorant eq2flames who cares to click "vote") gives paladins an edge over berserkers in the OT role. Because surely, such an inquiry is bound to produce much more valid and accurate information.I think you need to check the kind of logic you're employing here. It was stated already that the main reason for bruisers not being picked over monks post-mythical nerf for the monks was slow adjusting on part of many raiding guilds. Your counterargument is "but the public oppinion said...". I don't think anyone disagrees with you per se, but you're saying nothing about factual class balance, which is the topic at hand.As for AA lines:Wis line: The "monk line". More useful to us, hands down, because crane flock is based on autoattacks, and twirl will proc more often for us (casting speed and haste, blabla).Sta line: Does more for monks due to higher proc rates due to haste. But then, who specs for this anyway, outside PvPers?Int line: Equal for both. Crit chance does in fact not go up based on cast time or haste. You may be able to argue that Eagle Shriek (the endline) was great in combination with Tsunami, but no raiding monk used that AA that I know of, and with the bruiser mythical, that argument was void as well.Str line: No one used this in RoK. Now, the CA is equal. The DA does more for monks (many of us are close to capped in a properly buffed raid group anyway, but we can change out gear then). The deflection should be about the same (not sure on this one, I've no clue what bruisers deflection is at). Chi is better for bruisers due to the possibility of stacking, and higher-damage CAs which can really use the reuse reduction. I'd call the line about even.Agi: Better for bruisers. More CA based damage means reuse time reduction will be better for them. The rest is about equal.So! This seems fairly well balanced between the two classes (well, pvp monks may win out, but that aside...). What's your issue?

Mogzilla

11-01-2008, 03:18 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is probably because the bruisers were too busy crying instead of proving themselves, at the raw basics bruisers just own monks in every single way and and an amazing class. Yes people liked the monk raidwide, guess what it doesn't really make that huge of a difference.</blockquote>The truth is that the raw basics were so close on everything except the raid wide buff.Monks owned bruisers in the raid game due to that buff.You know it and so did everyone else.

Mogzilla

11-01-2008, 03:21 AM

<cite>Ummudien@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mog bugger off really, you don't see us Trolling all the Bruiser threads trying to get the Devs to ignore Bruisers, so please have the common courtesy to stay the hell away from Monk threads when you have no clue what you are talking about.</blockquote>I am not trying to get the devs to ignore monks I think the raid wide nerf was uncalled for and strike thru tsuami is a stupid idea.But by the same toke I am tired of much larger numbers of monks shouting down anything good a bruiser gets and devs listening because you are roughly twice the number we are.I want balance between the brawlers and ROK was anything but balanced, monks were far superior in ROK due to that buff and of couse pre=nerf peel.

Mogzilla

11-01-2008, 03:25 AM

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, let me get this straight.A raid leader asks his raiding monk, in one of the leading guilds in this game, to go and betray to a bruiser, because more tanking ability is needed...What? Please tell me what raid leader told his monk to betray bruiser for more tanking power. I mean seriously. It was stated already that the main reason for bruisers not being picked over monks post-mythical nerf for the monks was slow adjusting on part of many raiding guilds.No the main reason monks were picked over bruisers and still are right now is because the differences in tanking and dps are negligable the difference between the raid wide buffs is like night and day and that one spell made all the difference in the world.</blockquote>

Couching

11-01-2008, 03:52 AM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, let me get this straight.A raid leader asks his raiding monk, in one of the leading guilds in this game, to go and betray to a bruiser, because more tanking ability is needed...What? Please tell me what raid leader told his monk to betray bruiser for more tanking power. I mean seriously. It was stated already that the main reason for bruisers not being picked over monks post-mythical nerf for the monks was slow adjusting on part of many raiding guilds.No the main reason monks were picked over bruisers and still are right now is because the differences in tanking and dps are negligable the difference between the raid wide buffs is like night and day and that one spell made all the difference in the world.</blockquote></blockquote>Stop trolling in monk forum. We are talking about class balance in TSO, not in ROK.Moreover, the tanking and dps between monk and bruiser is not negigable, especially for raiding brawler.They are minority? Yes. They are minority in RoK.Now, in TSO, even for casual brawler, bruiser owns monk A LOT ! And you have no more raid wide buff excuse since even you have admitted that it's even on each class.Let's see what a casual bruiser get in TSO.Chain mitigation, better tsuami, most casual monk didn't have master 1 tsunami and it's 3 minutes reuse, stoneskin, extra group taunt and better dps in single and mutiple encounters. So please stop trolling.The class is broken and monk needs a fix in TSO aa.

scalzo

11-01-2008, 10:54 AM

SoE better fix this screw up or we are looking at 80% Bruisers and 20% Monks. Where is your argument for balance then? Are you going to come over here crying about it? How about you go be a good little troll and stick with your own class forum ummmkay!

Aull

11-01-2008, 03:57 PM

I would like to ask a/some question(s) about all this. What should be the defining difference or should I say differences between a monk and a bruiser?? Honestly. How/what do you think as a monk you are suppose to be? As a monk what should separate you from a bruiser?Seems most people think that it is a competition between monks and bruisers almost everytime I log to read the forums as to which brawler is the best dps, tank, utility, or raid/group mate. I honestly feel that the monks should have or should be better at something either it be tanking, utility, dps, or solo while the bruisers are better than the monks on the opposite end of the spectrum.Equality? Well I don't think that a bruiser should be equal to or less than a monk or vise versa. I do think that monks shouldn't suck nor should bruisers but again monks should have a definitive property as should a bruiser. What as monks should this definitive property(s) be? Better in tanking? Better in utility? Better in dps? Better at soloing. Just not all four categories.As a bruiser I come to the monk forums for information. Yes yes I know maybe I should stick to the bruiser forums but they are usually dead anyways. However I must say that I rely on monks information as well as bruiser info to help me become better as a player. Many of you have solid and I do mean solid information that has helped me along and I do appreciate your time.So the question again what should monks be doing better than bruisers?Thanks for you time eveyone.

Lethe5683

11-01-2008, 04:23 PM

The nerf to uncontested avoidance didn't help brawler vs plate tanks really at all. They still have more uncontested avoidance than us. IMO, uncontested avoidance should just be completly removed from the game, it was a stupid idea from the start.

BChizzle

11-01-2008, 05:51 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is probably because the bruisers were too busy crying instead of proving themselves, at the raw basics bruisers just own monks in every single way and and an amazing class. Yes people liked the monk raidwide, guess what it doesn't really make that huge of a difference.</blockquote>The truth is that the raw basics were so close on everything except the raid wide buff.Monks owned bruisers in the raid game due to that buff.You know it and so did everyone else.</blockquote>That is absolutely and completely untrue. I saw first hand what a raid bruiser could do all through RoK, they were and still are better. Raidwide made little difference you could swap me for him with little effect. However, his snap agro, ae agro, survivability, was way above mine dps was pretty even.

Lethe5683

11-01-2008, 06:31 PM

Its also pretty stupid how monks get the minor self mit buff (not the stun stance) which roots them AND takes power to maintain where the bruiser version, only takes a bit of health per tic which is not even noticeable in a group and it doesn't root them and it lasts longer.

Dorieon

11-01-2008, 06:37 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would like to ask a/some question(s) about all this. What should be the defining difference or should I say differences between a monk and a bruiser?? Honestly. How/what do you think as a monk you are suppose to be? As a monk what should separate you from a bruiser?Seems most people think that it is a competition between monks and bruisers almost everytime I log to read the forums as to which brawler is the best dps, tank, utility, or raid/group mate. I honestly feel that the monks should have or should be better at something either it be tanking, utility, dps, or solo while the bruisers are better than the monks on the opposite end of the spectrum.Equality? Well I don't think that a bruiser should be equal to or less than a monk or vise versa. I do think that monks shouldn't suck nor should bruisers but again monks should have a definitive property as should a bruiser. What as monks should this definitive property(s) be? Better in tanking? Better in utility? Better in dps? Better at soloing. Just not all four categories.As a bruiser I come to the monk forums for information. Yes yes I know maybe I should stick to the bruiser forums but they are usually dead anyways. However I must say that I rely on monks information as well as bruiser info to help me become better as a player. Many of you have solid and I do mean solid information that has helped me along and I do appreciate your time.So the question again what should monks be doing better than bruisers?Thanks for you time eveyone.</blockquote>I believe that the basic problem is that until AA's came about there was a clear difference between the two classes. Monks had more survivability (tanking) and Bruisers had better dps potential. It was that way for a long time. I'm not saying Bruisers couldn't tank, it was just the difference between say a Guard and a Zerker. But outside of a raid environment where tsunami really shined for survivability, they blurred the lines so much that any differences became practically null.The issue is that SoE has not been able to find a way to balance the 'avoidance tanks' like they did the other tanks. The plate tanks are divided into single tgt and AoE tanks. The single target tanks have much better survivability than the AoE tanks while the AoE tanks have a much higher dps potential. I'm not sure that would work all that well for us because the vast majority of us either don't tank or rarely tank in raids due to survivability issues.For a few expansions Bruisers were considered the 'better' brawler choice for raiding and monks were asking for a little help. Then the raid wides came out and we suddenly had the edge. Then they gave us Peel (which was completely OP) and all of a sudden we became the 'much better' choice. So now Bruisers were making all the threads about sucking and needing help and with TSO you are getting it. SoE's solution to balancing us seems to be giving us one spell/CA/buff or AA at a time but that just keeps swinging the balance back and forth.You had a good point. There is no clear difference between the two classes and until there is, whoever just got the best toy will have the edge....sorry for rambling...

Aull

11-01-2008, 07:39 PM

<cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would like to ask a/some question(s) about all this. What should be the defining difference or should I say differences between a monk and a bruiser?? Honestly. How/what do you think as a monk you are suppose to be? As a monk what should separate you from a bruiser?Seems most people think that it is a competition between monks and bruisers almost everytime I log to read the forums as to which brawler is the best dps, tank, utility, or raid/group mate. I honestly feel that the monks should have or should be better at something either it be tanking, utility, dps, or solo while the bruisers are better than the monks on the opposite end of the spectrum.Equality? Well I don't think that a bruiser should be equal to or less than a monk or vise versa. I do think that monks shouldn't suck nor should bruisers but again monks should have a definitive property as should a bruiser. What as monks should this definitive property(s) be? Better in tanking? Better in utility? Better in dps? Better at soloing. Just not all four categories.As a bruiser I come to the monk forums for information. Yes yes I know maybe I should stick to the bruiser forums but they are usually dead anyways. However I must say that I rely on monks information as well as bruiser info to help me become better as a player. Many of you have solid and I do mean solid information that has helped me along and I do appreciate your time.So the question again what should monks be doing better than bruisers?Thanks for you time eveyone.</blockquote>I believe that the basic problem is that until AA's came about there was a clear difference between the two classes. Monks had more survivability (tanking) and Bruisers had better dps potential. It was that way for a long time. I'm not saying Bruisers couldn't tank, it was just the difference between say a Guard and a Zerker. But outside of a raid environment where tsunami really shined for survivability, they blurred the lines so much that any differences became practically null.The issue is that SoE has not been able to find a way to balance the 'avoidance tanks' like they did the other tanks. The plate tanks are divided into single tgt and AoE tanks. The single target tanks have much better survivability than the AoE tanks while the AoE tanks have a much higher dps potential. I'm not sure that would work all that well for us because the vast majority of us either don't tank or rarely tank in raids due to survivability issues.For a few expansions Bruisers were considered the 'better' brawler choice for raiding and monks were asking for a little help. Then the raid wides came out and we suddenly had the edge. Then they gave us Peel (which was completely OP) and all of a sudden we became the 'much better' choice. So now Bruisers were making all the threads about sucking and needing help and with TSO you are getting it. SoE's solution to balancing us seems to be giving us one spell/CA/buff or AA at a time but that just keeps swinging the balance back and forth.You had a good point. There is no clear difference between the two classes and until there is, whoever just got the best toy will have the edge....sorry for rambling...</blockquote>Thanks for you answer and you are not rambling cause this is the type of info that helps me bit at a time to understand why so much confusion about brawlers. I think both the monk and bruiser are good classes to play. Both solo nicely, can tank, and dps to a decent margin when in the proper group and most that have played for a while know this already.My main suggestion(s) would be for some type of separating factor between these two brawlers. Maybe one should have more aoe potential as fighter where the other should have more single target potential and survivability.I have been looking at the new aa tree and from what I am seeing monks will be able to have tactical precision too. It will give 5% melee and spell accuracy to the raid buff once all 5 points are maxed. I could be wrong on this so I will stand corrected if I am.

scalzo

11-01-2008, 08:40 PM

Well Bruisers where suppose to be the offensive type brawlers while Monks the defensive ones. Who is getting all the tanking abilities now? SoE's problem is that they keep changing things around instead of sticking with a plan. Monks should have 2 stoneskins if they are the defensive brawlers and Bruisers should be owning Monks in DPS. That was the info I was told back in T5-T6.

Aull

11-01-2008, 09:45 PM

<cite>scalzo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well Bruisers where suppose to be the offensive type brawlers while Monks the defensive ones. Who is getting all the tanking abilities now? SoE's problem is that they keep changing things around instead of sticking with a plan. Monks should have 2 stoneskins if they are the defensive brawlers and Bruisers should be owning Monks in DPS. That was the info I was told back in T5-T6.</blockquote>I totally agree with you on this. Every fighter should have some type of defensive ability "of their own". I for one do not like the fact that tsunami was once a monk only type of ability (class defining if you will) that is now becoming a staple type ability that is given to other fighters through equipment or aa.I think SOE's thinking is like the "sharing the wealth program". If a certain class that is benefiting well from a given ability will then have that ability given to the classes that are not as fortunate to have it. Now we all are alike.I enjoy this game very much. SOE has done so great in most all of this game bar none. However class individuality is being lost.

Xanrn

11-02-2008, 01:33 AM

The problem is Aeralik came into a thread and told he wanted us to be taken on raids for tanking, dps and buffs.The trouble is the craptastic AAs only boost the tanking, the dps increases is pathetic and the buff increase barely makes up for what we lost.I am not buying another Expansion pack where we get royally shafted on AAs, the EoF tree still sucks for the most part, coming on 2 years since it went live.They took over 2 years of us b!tching to get the hell off their butts and fix the KoS Str line pretty much exactly how we had been saying for years. They still haven't fixed the Wis line and its paltry AoE damage (except for Crane Flock), seriously how the hell does 16% to proc 200-400 aoe dmg even remotely equal 40% aoe autoattack(especially with Mythicals.So that means well get the EoF AAs fixed in the beta for the next X-pansion in 09 and then the TSO AAs in the Beta in 2010.Also the Devs do not balance for soloability and anyone that says they should is a freakin idiot. I mean really take a freakin look at the Enchanters.Bruisers do, always have and probably always will out solo Monks (on Heroics because god knows any idiot with a pulse can solo actual solo mobs).The Issue is not balance, the issue is crappy AAs.If we are ment to be Jack of All Trades which apparantly is how Aeralik thinks of us, We need our bloody AAs to reflect this.

Dorieon

11-02-2008, 11:01 AM

<cite>Kamaala@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok and for real, the bruiser raidwide does NOT own ours. No way. Even nerfed, 10% cast speed and 24 haste is still godly. My Mystic still uses the SoF robe for this very reason. To me it does, hence the 'imo' at the end. I am not saying that 24 haste, 9.6 casting haste, and +5% spell/CA to hit sucks. I am just saying that +5% base combat art damage, +69str, 16% to taunts/detaunts, +5% spell/CA to hit and -10% hate gain for all non fighters is better. Its just my opinion with me looking at my guild and what would help us more. We are a melee heavy guild so the cast haste does less for us.And no.2 this game is based on 95% player perception. Don't say we are teh worst class on the game, other classes might hear it and believe it. True we didnt get the upgrades other classes got, but by Gosh our raidwide buff is still super pwnzors and I'll be dmnd if I see a bruiser out-dps me. They have always been better tanks (especially since Mythicals came out) but I don't see them passing us up as far as DPS goes. And don't think we are brought on raids to be super tanks, we are utility tanks, nothing is different here.Bruisers have not ALWAYS been better tanks than Monks. When I rolled my monk we were better tanks and they had an edge in dps. It was even in the class descriptions iirc. As far as a Bruiser not out dpsing you, if you were a Bruiser with the same number of masters and in a group for Bruisers (not monk) I think you would parse higher. They just have a higher dps potential.The avoidance changes change is nothing but good news for us. Shields have pwned us for too long, this change is so far overdue it is sickening. But the first time i see a mob strike through my Tsunami, I'm calling the police because that will be the day I kill somebody. Surely this doesn't get to live.The avoidance changes are nice but we still have less uncontested than a tower sheild. And I hope you have the phone ready because the mobs are hitting thru our and every other fighter's tsunami ability.Oh and you are forgetting that the STR line benefits US more than bruisers because of our haste. Faster autoattacks = more double attacks. Period.This is true but what Bruiser is going to be hurting for haste in a raid? Not very many. </blockquote>Its not that we will all of a sudden 'suck' , its that if you are the only brawler in your guild then you would help your guild more as a Bruiser. If you are a 'utility tank' with your mythical (and all raiding brawlers should have it sometime next expansion) you will survive longer (and easier) as a utility tank as a Bruiser than you would as a Monk.Bruiser-12 sec AA tsunami - then Inner Focus AA (2 stoneskin when hit for over 50% hp) - then a few seconds to let another stoneskin go off - then mythical tsunami with self heal (not to mention the damage reduction) = no less than 30-40 seconds 'utility tank survivability' (or should) even with mob strikethroughs.Monk- 12 sec tsunami - then Inner Focus AA- then Stun Stance - then Bob and Weave (20%parry 20% dodge= about 10% avoidance in D stance for me) = about 20-25 seconds 'utility tank survivabilty'Those are with both brawlers in a dps group (with one healer) grabbing agro on the fly. Obviously it all depends on raid healers but lets assume most of them are stunned/not paying attention when you grab the mob. If any Brawlers IN BETA think I have those numbers wrong please say so and explain why. Otherwise, that is what I am seeing and that is why people are saying Monks are screwed in TSO. Even if our dps is the same as a Bruiser they will still 'spot/utiltiy tank' better.There are still 2 weeks, maybe they will change something for us Monks.

circusgirl

11-02-2008, 02:24 PM

Honestly, I wouldn't mind the bruisers getting a better set of AAs this expansion if they would just leave our raidwide buff as is instead of sending it to hell and back. I'm a monk, I love my class, and I'm sticking to it. I'm pretty sure the folks I raid with aren't gonna ditch me for a bruiser.

tikasa

11-02-2008, 04:11 PM

Mogzilla

11-02-2008, 04:23 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stop trolling in monk forum. We are talking about class balance in TSO, not in ROK.Lol, that is a completely silly arguement. You can not just ignore the previous expansion and just look at the new AA only and talk about balance. Yes the new bruiser AA are slightly better and the new SK AA are better. But devs said that they were going to balance the tank classes with AA. Because of abilities you guys were better in ROK, that is a fact, monks were they preferred brawler in ROK raiding by a large margin. Now the devs are attempting to bring bruisers into balance with the new AA's so it appears we are better if you only look at the AA's but when you take into account what you had before its pretty even. I mean you raid wide buff was so so much better then ours it was not even comparable.Moreover, the tanking and dps between monk and bruiser is not negigable, especially for raiding brawler.No before the mythicals monks are the better tanks, after the myth there is a very very slight edge to bruisers. No freaking guild is going to recruit a bruiser over a monk to tank, be real lol.They are minority? Yes. They are minority in RoK.Now, in TSO, even for casual brawler, bruiser owns monk A LOT ! And you have no more raid wide buff excuse since even you have admitted that it's even on each class.Bruiser does not own monk, the are just more even now. The only thing that will decide who gets on raids now is player skill. In ROK it was class, monks were always taken over bruisers all other things being equal simply because of how powerful that RW buff was.Let's see what a casual bruiser get in TSO.Chain mitigation,*Mitigation almost like chain, read the description* dont forget the stun component on the mit buff is removed for you guys, because of this you will be able to better deal with spike damage then us. Its spike damage that kills you.better tsuami, most casual monk didn't have master 1 tsunami and it's 3 minutes reuseYours will be fixed, trust me. extra group tauntextra single target taunt, so evenand better dps in single and mutiple encounters. So please stop trolling.you dont know that. From my experiance monks dps just as good as bruiser do, if there is an difference it will be negligable.The class is broken and monk needs a fix in TSO aa.Broken? No, I dont think the strike thru on tsuami was cool nor did I think the slight raid wide nerf was callled for.Perhaps your AA's could use a slight tweak, but broken, not even close. What has really happened is you are not longer the hands down best brawler of two and some see this a nerf, same reason guardians and paladins are now crying. Its called balance.</blockquote>

Mogzilla

11-02-2008, 04:29 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is absolutely and completely untrue. I saw first hand what a raid bruiser could do all through RoK, they were and still are better. Raidwide made little difference you could swap me for him with little effect.Um +100CA +20% to taunts/detaunts vs 25% attack haste and 15% casting haste. Are you joking? +100CA damage is complete worthless to anyone not in treasured gear and +20% taunts is equally worthless because tuants are pretty much worthless. The best guild on my server RL told me its very noticable when their monk is not in the raid and told me they would never look at a bruiser, monks dps just as well tank just as well and own bruisers with their RW. This guild has finished all content. However, his snap agro, ae agro, survivability, was way above mine dps was pretty even.How was snap aggro better? Peel is the best snap aggro in the game. Surviablity is practically the same with mythicals before that monks own bruisers.</blockquote>

Mogzilla

11-02-2008, 04:35 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly, I wouldn't mind the bruisers getting a better set of AAs this expansion if they would just leave our raidwide buff as is instead of sending it to hell and back. I'm a monk, I love my class, and I'm sticking to it. I'm pretty sure the folks I raid with aren't gonna ditch me for a bruiser.</blockquote>Well the nerf to the RW was slight 5%, but I agree it was uncalled for.No the people you raid with are not gonna ditch you or any other monk for raiding, the thing now is that play skill will matter more for brawlers instead of class. As it should be.If you are a monk that can tank and dps well you have nothing to worry about. If you are monk who was brought in as a RW buff bot, you might have problems.And yes I have met plenty of monks who can not tank for crap but are in raiding guilds, all they can do is do some OK dps and buff their raid with the powerful buff and that was enough to take them over a better played bruiser.

Orracle

11-02-2008, 05:23 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stop trolling in monk forum. We are talking about class balance in TSO, not in ROK.Lol, that is a completely silly arguement. You can not just ignore the previous expansion and just look at the new AA only and talk about balance. Yes the new bruiser AA are slightly better and the new SK AA are better. But devs said that they were going to balance the tank classes with AA. Because of abilities you guys were better in ROK, that is a fact, monks were they preferred brawler in ROK raiding by a large margin. Now the devs are attempting to bring bruisers into balance with the new AA's so it appears we are better if you only look at the AA's but when you take into account what you had before its pretty even. I mean you raid wide buff was so so much better then ours it was not even comparable.If you want to stay in rok, go ahead. Stop wasting our time since we are moving to tso. And in TSO, your issue was solved. Stop trolling, thanks. Moreover, the tanking and dps between monk and bruiser is not negigable, especially for raiding brawler.No before the mythicals monks are the better tanks, after the myth there is a very very slight edge to bruisers. No freaking guild is going to recruit a bruiser over a monk to tank, be real lol.Good, now you admitted that mythical bruiser is better tank than monk.They are minority? Yes. They are minority in RoK.Now, in TSO, even for casual brawler, bruiser owns monk A LOT ! And you have no more raid wide buff excuse since even you have admitted that it's even on each class.Bruiser does not own monk, the are just more even now. The only thing that will decide who gets on raids now is player skill. In ROK it was class, monks were always taken over bruisers all other things being equal simply because of how powerful that RW buff was.Still the same junk complaining of Rok and it's no longer in TSO. You are wasting everyone's time.Let's see what a casual bruiser get in TSO.Chain mitigation,*Mitigation almost like chain, read the description* dont forget the stun component on the mit buff is removed for you guys, because of this you will be able to better deal with spike damage then us. Its spike damage that kills you.The reuse timer of iron stance is 3 minutes. Even with monk EOF aa, it's 2minutes and 30 sec. In other word, it's only up 1/6 playing time. For casual monk, a permanent mitigation boost is much better in a daily based group tanking. better tsuami, most casual monk didn't have master 1 tsunami and it's 3 minutes reuseYours will be fixed, trust me.You sounds like you are developers. I wish we can get it fixed. extra group tauntextra single target taunt, so evenEven? Where is the extra single taunt we get over bruiser? Every fighter get one taunt from end of fighter line. Bruiser and monk get another single taunt from end of bruiser/monk line. Where is the extra taunt we get that bruiser didn't? Not to say, 75% content in TSO is multiple encounters. Getting extra group taunt is godly useful in tanking.and better dps in single and mutiple encounters. So please stop trolling.you dont know that. From my experiance monks dps just as good as bruiser do, if there is an difference it will be negligable.There is no magic to deal dps, your gear, your spell level, what buff you get and player skill. Most competent bruisers can deal more dps than monk, especially in raid. You can't? You are just telling us you suck as a bruiser. The class is broken and monk needs a fix in TSO aa.Broken? No, I dont think the strike thru on tsuami was cool nor did I think the slight raid wide nerf was callled for.Perhaps your AA's could use a slight tweak, but broken, not even close. What has really happened is you are not longer the hands down best brawler of two and some see this a nerf, same reason guardians and paladins are now crying. Its called balance.Monk isn't and wasn't best brawler. We had better utilities and being a better tank before bruiser getting tsunami on their mythical and TSO aa. Bruiser was better at solo and dps.Now, bruiser is better than monk in every aspect. It's called balance? LOLYour trolling just shows how incompetent you are as a bruiser. </blockquote></blockquote>

Xanrn

11-02-2008, 05:59 PM

Hhaha "maybe a slight tweak to your aa's", go away.If you can't see how much Monk AAs suck except for like 4 of them you are a bigger idiot than you look.They do not need a "slight tweek", half of them need overhauls and a couple need to be scrapped entirely and replaced with something useful.Even the majorty of the Bruisers understand the Brawler branch sucks but your too bust being a complete Tool to shut up while your elders discuss topics far above your level of knowledge.If you don't unstand, I suggest you go read the Assassins tree and realise the Devs DO NOT balance with AA trees.I am sure Rangers will agree with you that the Assassins were hurting so bad, they needed Verdict and a 2k self heal...

Mogzilla

11-02-2008, 06:01 PM

<cite>Orracle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stop trolling in monk forum. We are talking about class balance in TSO, not in ROK.Lol, that is a completely silly arguement. You can not just ignore the previous expansion and just look at the new AA only and talk about balance. Yes the new bruiser AA are slightly better and the new SK AA are better. But devs said that they were going to balance the tank classes with AA. Because of abilities you guys were better in ROK, that is a fact, monks were they preferred brawler in ROK raiding by a large margin. Now the devs are attempting to bring bruisers into balance with the new AA's so it appears we are better if you only look at the AA's but when you take into account what you had before its pretty even. I mean you raid wide buff was so so much better then ours it was not even comparable.If you want to stay in rok, go ahead. Stop wasting our time since we are moving to tso. And in TSO, your issue was solved. Stop trolling, thanks. Yep, but the fact that monks were better in ROK very much relates to why the TSO AA are better for bruiser.Let me break this down for you in easily understandable terms. ROK = monk > bruiser, TSO AA bruiser > monk, end result monk = bruiserMoreover, the tanking and dps between monk and bruiser is not negigable, especially for raiding brawler.No before the mythicals monks are the better tanks, after the myth there is a very very slight edge to bruisers. No freaking guild is going to recruit a bruiser over a monk to tank, be real lol.Good, now you admitted that mythical bruiser is better tank than monk.A non myth monk is a better tank then a non myth bruiser by a larger margin, Tsuami owns anything a bruiser gets defensively before myth. After myth there is a very tiny edge to bruiser, not enough to really matter, espcially when you consider there is twice as many monks with myths then bruisers.They are minority? Yes. They are minority in RoK.Now, in TSO, even for casual brawler, bruiser owns monk A LOT ! And you have no more raid wide buff excuse since even you have admitted that it's even on each class.Bruiser does not own monk, the are just more even now. The only thing that will decide who gets on raids now is player skill. In ROK it was class, monks were always taken over bruisers all other things being equal simply because of how powerful that RW buff was.Still the same junk complaining of Rok and it's no longer in TSO. You are wasting everyone's time.Let's see what a casual bruiser get in TSO.Chain mitigation,*Mitigation almost like chain, read the description* dont forget the stun component on the mit buff is removed for you guys, because of this you will be able to better deal with spike damage then us. Its spike damage that kills you.The reuse timer of iron stance is 3 minutes. Even with monk EOF aa, it's 2minutes and 30 sec. In other word, it's only up 1/6 playing time. For casual monk, a permanent mitigation boost is much better in a daily based group tanking. Nope, because spike damage is what kills you, I dont die on trash mobs in RE2, its fights like the shaman and the slamhammer with their occasional spike damage that kills me. The mit buff will give you better then plate mitigation to deal with this spike damage.better tsuami, most casual monk didn't have master 1 tsunami and it's 3 minutes reuseYours will be fixed, trust me.You sounds like you are developers. I wish we can get it fixed. extra group tauntextra single target taunt, so evenEven? Where is the extra single taunt we get over bruiser? Every fighter get one taunt from end of fighter line. Bruiser and monk get another single taunt from end of bruiser/monk line. Where is the extra taunt we get that bruiser didn't? PeelNot to say, 75% content in TSO is multiple encounters. Getting extra group taunt is godly useful in tanking.Doubt it, it will be like veksar a mix, instead of the mostly single target ROK.and better dps in single and mutiple encounters. So please stop trolling.you dont know that. From my experiance monks dps just as good as bruiser do, if there is an difference it will be negligable.There is no magic to deal dps, your gear, your spell level, what buff you get and player skill. Most competent bruisers can deal more dps than monk, especially in raid. You can't? You are just telling us you suck as a bruiser. You accuse me of trolling, but you are the one making personal insults, I hope a mod sees this.And yes the dps difference between monks and bruisers is neglibable and hardly worth talking about.The class is broken and monk needs a fix in TSO aa.Broken? No, I dont think the strike thru on tsuami was cool nor did I think the slight raid wide nerf was callled for.Perhaps your AA's could use a slight tweak, but broken, not even close. What has really happened is you are not longer the hands down best brawler of two and some see this a nerf, same reason guardians and paladins are now crying. Its called balance.Monk isn't and wasn't best brawler.THen why did so many bruisers betray monk at the start of ROK and never came back.WHy are there way more raiding monks then bruisers? ITs because the differnce in tanking and dps is negilbable the diffrernce between the raidwides was like night and day.Your trolling just shows how incompetent you are as a bruiser. Actually you are just showing how imconpentant you are as a monk. I am guessing you are one of the monks that got a raid slot because of that buff and because you could do some ok dps.Now that you have to actually tank and dont have the hands down best RW buff in the game you are fearful.L2P and you will be fine.</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>