TSO Berserker Issue List (updated april-3-2009) [Archive]

victer

10-30-2008, 05:07 PM

I'm going to try to make an easy to read list of problems with the current berserker design. Please keep your descriptive posts and your complaints to the other berserker threads. If you can think of something to add to this list I'll gladly add it. If you feel something is more / less important then I do, I'm also willing to take suggestions.<hr />Bug ReportThis will be a list of skills and effects used by the berserker that are currently not working as described in the description.<ul><li>Aggressive Defense (auto taunt): Although this skill is listed as slashing damage, melee critical modifiers are not applied. It seems that spell critical modifiers are being used instead.</li></ul><hr />High PriorityThese issues need attention a.s.a.p.<ul><li>Defensive Stance: The negative melee skills reduce our hit rate to something unacceptable. Agro generation is drastically reduced by missing the target too often. We also require being able to hit the target to proc our berserk effect to properly use our main tanking ability Adrenaline.</li></ul><hr />Medium PriorityThese issues will cause a lot of people to complain and should be looked into.<ul><li>Blood Regeneration and Perseverance: Effectiveness of the skill diminishes with a higher tier of opponent. Works well for solo/duel... Underpowered for heroic .... Almost useless in raids.</li></ul><ul><li>Aggressive Defence (auto taunt): Procs on 20% of incoming melee attacks. Other fighters have a stronger taunt procing 55% or 100% of the time on ANY incoming attack. That is a very huge difference.</li></ul> <hr />Low PriorityThese issues need eventual attention but we can live with them as long as you attend the top 2 prioritys and bugs.<ul><li>Berserker AA Tree:<ul><li>Debilitation Line: The bonuses offered are for increased debuffs on our combat arts. Our combat arts are low debuffers. We have debuffs such as 14 haste and 19 slash/crush/peirce. Our AA's increase these numbers by a low % on a low number... = very low gains per AA spent.</li><li>Berserk: Our "clicky" zerk is less potent then our berserk from our skills.</li></ul></li></ul><ul><li>Vision of Madness: Does not guarantee a death prevention. If my group gets one shotted by a strong AE and i have this skill on everyone should be dead except for me but this doesn't happen all the time.</li></ul><ul><li>Raid AE Encounters: There still is not enough AE encounters in raids that will make us use our AE abilities to their fullest. If we are meant to be AoE encounter tanks and are receiving more and more AoE skills please give us more opportunities to use them!</li></ul><ul><li>TSO Berserker Tree:<ul><li>Jeering Onslaught: The skill currently requires a target to cast yet is classified as a "blue" AE. No other blue AE in the game requires a target.</li><li>Wall of force: <ul><li>The UI does not show how many procs are left on the buff. </li><li>The duration is too short. Often the mob will not hit you hard enough during the 10 seconds for the proc to go off.</li></ul></li></ul></li><li>Berserker Mythical Weapon: Enrage is heat damage when it should be some sort of melee damage.</li></ul><hr />I will add/delete/edit this post as needed

victer

10-30-2008, 05:07 PM

This post is going to try and give suggestions to the original post. I will add everyone suggestions to mine.Each numbered suggested change is an individual suggestion. I do not expect to have all of the numbered suggestions changed at the same time.<hr />High Priority<ul><li>Defensive Stance: The negative melee skills reduce our hit rate to something unacceptable. Agro generation is drastically reduced by missing the target too often. We also require being able to hit the target to proc our berserk effect to properly use our main tanking ability Adrenaline.</li></ul><ol><li>Remove the negative melee skills.</li></ol><hr />Medium Priority<ul><li>Blood Regeneration and Perseverance: Effectiveness of the skill diminishes with a higher tier of opponent. Works well for solo/duel... Underpowered for heroic .... Almost useless in raids.</li></ul> <ol><li>The heal should be dependent on what is attacking you. If solo or pvp... If heroic... If epic.</li><li>The heal should be a % of the damage taken.</li><li>Increase the proc chance.</li><li>Change the proc to any damage taken not just melee attacks </li></ol><ul><li>Aggressive Defense (auto taunt): Procs on 20% of incoming melee attacks. Other fighters have a stronger taunt procing 55% or 100% of the time on ANY incoming attack. That is a very huge difference.</li></ul><ol><li>Change the auto-taunt proc rate to 50%+.</li><li>Change the auto-taunt proc to proc off ANY incoming attack.</li></ol> <hr />Low Priority<ul><li>Berserker AA Tree:<ul><li>Debilitation Line: The bonuses offered are for increased debuffs on our combat arts. Our combat arts are low debuffers. We have debuffs such as 14 haste and 19 slash/crush/pierce. Our AA's increase these numbers by a low % on a low number... = very low gains per AA spent.</li></ul></li></ul><ol><li>Add % damage to the AA's. We are the offensive warrior aren't we? </li></ol><ul><li>Berserker AA Tree:<ul><li>Berserk: Our "clicky" zerk is less potent then our berserk from our skills.</li></ul></li></ul><ol><li>Change it to be as strong as the adept 3 version of the players current tier. Or Higher.</li></ol><ul><li>Vision of Madness: Does not guarantee a death prevention. If my group gets one shotted by a strong AE and I have this skill on everyone should be dead except for me but this doesn't happen all the time.</li></ul><ol><li>When we die this is supposed to heal us for 5 seconds. If you die before the 5 seconds expires you should not have to wait on the full recast duration.</li></ol><ul><li>Raid AE Encounters: There still is not enough AE encounters in raids that will make us use our AE abilities to their fullest. If we are meant to be AoE encounter tanks and are receiving more and more AoE skills please give us more opportunities to use them!</li></ul><ol><li>Add more AE encounters! And I'm not talking about the standard "Mob starts with 1 Name and 2 adds.... kill adds in 15 seconds move on to name.... get loot". We need more interesting fights that make us use our AE abilities to their fullest.</li></ol><ul><li>TSO Berserker Tree:<ul><li>Jeering Onslaught: The skill currently requires a target to cast yet is classified as a "blue" AE. No other blue AE in the game requires a target.</li></ul></li></ul><ol><li>Should not require a target. Much like all other blue AEs in the game.</li></ol><ul><li>TSO Berserker Tree:<ul><li>Wall of force: <ul><li>The UI does not show how many procs are left on the buff. </li><li>The duration is too short. Often the mob will not hit you hard enough during the 10 seconds for the proc to go off.</li></ul></li></ul></li></ul><ol><li>The UI should show how many procs are left much like the way that Weapon Counter and Turmoil display the number of procs left.</li><li>Increase the duration to 15-20 seconds.</li></ol><ul><li>Berserker Mythical Weapon: Enrage is heat damage when it should be some sort of melee damage.</li></ul><ol><li>Change it to some sort of melee damage.</li></ol><hr />I will change/edit/add to this post as needed.

Pokar

10-30-2008, 05:43 PM

Wow, awesome posts.If all of this stuff isn't fixed I'll be retiring Batrog for good. This is ludicrous.Nerfing Adrenaline is just wrong, it's bad enough that 50% power is taken away, now 100%? What the hell is this? They take away numerous things and give us only a couple of things. How is this an expansion? It's more like a... despansion.

Mexule

10-30-2008, 08:27 PM

don't forget about changing Open wounds to something useful for those with mythicals <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. but #1 priority is to change adrenaline back.

Bremer

10-30-2008, 08:42 PM

Not changing it back, changing it to a reasonable amount, not like in the beta or on live servers.

Curs3

10-30-2008, 08:50 PM

what gave them the idea that berserkers where over powered in the first place? i never hear that. anyways im not going to bother getting another char up to 80 just to be nerfed too. this will be the end of the line for me if it goes through.

Mexule

10-30-2008, 08:53 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not changing it back, changing it to a reasonable amount, not like in the beta or on live servers.</blockquote>what amount did u have in mind?

Aeralik

10-30-2008, 09:31 PM

Adrenaline is already changed. Also the stamina line has been reworked quite a bit and no longer has a buckler requirement.

schizolic

10-30-2008, 09:44 PM

wow, aerellik, hows the guard mythic look now?

Mexule

10-30-2008, 09:45 PM

whats going to happen to guardian mythical then?

Wilin

10-30-2008, 10:11 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also the stamina line has been reworked quite a bit and no longer has a buckler requirement.</blockquote>Ruh-roh...

Demurg

10-30-2008, 10:22 PM

Crusaders - 8 AA = 17 DA, warriors - 8 AA = 45 DA? Imbalances

Kain-UK

10-30-2008, 11:02 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Adrenaline is already changed. Also the stamina line has been reworked quite a bit and no longer has a buckler requirement.</blockquote>I'm hoping we'll see this in a day or so then.Because i'm on beta right now, and a buckler is still needed and Adrenaline still hurts like the heroic named I poked. :p

Sithal

10-31-2008, 12:10 AM

Thanks for the change on STA line Aeralik, looking forward to what you came up with for it and the Guard Myth. There were some good ideas in the threads.

Cuchilla

10-31-2008, 04:31 AM

So what is this I hear that Berserkers are 4th of the list of tanks with both crusader tanks ranking above them for MT and Offtank spots?! Have heard that from a handfull of people now. Any truth behind that? I know that Zerkers have been the weaklings of the tank group prior TSO and one would think the expansion would give a class that deserves it more of a boost.

Triste-Lune

10-31-2008, 05:15 AM

Best main tank : guard pally berserker SK Best off tank : SK berserker pally guard Cuchilla, that is the order for the plat tank

Jonger79

10-31-2008, 11:07 AM

So how much powerdrain is Adrenaline going to be now. If its more then currently I will be sick. If its 100% I'm going to betray.

Jaylo

10-31-2008, 11:17 AM

<cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Berserker AA Tree - Executioner's Anger: See above... same as "Blood Regeneration".<ol><li>Same as above.</li><li>Reduce duration from 45 seconds to 15-20s.</li></ol></blockquote>From what I saw, the buff has a 45 second duration, but it is refreshed every 15 seconds. The heal when you fall below 30% health can trigger every 15 seconds.The only reason that I can see why the duration was increased to 45 seconds was to remove the distraction of the buff flashing constantly as it counted down to expiration.

LygerT

10-31-2008, 11:49 AM

<cite>Demurg wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crusaders - 8 AA = 17 DA, warriors - 8 AA = 45 DA? Imbalances</blockquote>amends = what? imbalancesstamina3 used to be 76% btw.

Mogzilla

10-31-2008, 12:06 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demurg wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crusaders - 8 AA = 17 DA, warriors - 8 AA = 45 DA? Imbalances</blockquote>amends = what? imbalancesstamina3 used to be 76% btw.</blockquote>Sk's get ammends?

Mogzilla

10-31-2008, 12:07 PM

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>Best main tank : guard pally berserker SK Best off tank : SK berserker pally guard Cuchilla, that is the order for the plat tank</blockquote>Quite honestly that looks to be perfectly balanced and the way it should be.

Triste-Lune

10-31-2008, 12:53 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>Best main tank : guard pally berserker SK Best off tank : SK berserker pally guard Cuchilla, that is the order for the plat tank</blockquote>Quite honestly that looks to be perfectly balanced and the way it should be.</blockquote>i dont think so Tim, it shouldnt be like that... where do you see balance when crusader offer better utility and tanking for pally and better utility offtanking and DPS for SK, who wants a class that doesnt bring anything to the raid except leech buffs.btw what are you doing here? should you be in the brawlers boards mourning the death of brawlers instead of the warrior ones?

Triste-Lune

10-31-2008, 12:55 PM

<cite>Demurg wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crusaders - 8 AA = 17 DA, warriors - 8 AA = 45 DA? Imbalances</blockquote>see any utility we can bring compared to crusaders? nop me neither... so yes we need to have a higher DA then you and by a large amount, especially when your regular auto attack is around 8k+ and ours is around 4k

Mogzilla

10-31-2008, 12:59 PM

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>i dont think so Tim, it shouldnt be like that... where do you see balance when crusader offer better utility and tanking for pallyYeah cause I always grab a pally for a raid or grp for their "utility" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> Never mind that zerker dps is far beyone what a pally can ever do and better utility offtanking and DPS for SK, who wants a class that doesnt bring anything to the raid except leech buffs.SK will not dps better then zerkers, zerkers will still own them on single targets and aoe will be roughtly the same.btw what are you doing here? should you be in the brawlers boards mourning the death of brawlers instead of the warrior ones?Just ammusing myself with all the "woe is me" stuff.Never mind that zerkers got a huge buff in this expansion. BTW bucklers are not longer required for sta line.</blockquote>

Mogzilla

10-31-2008, 01:03 PM

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demurg wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crusaders - 8 AA = 17 DA, warriors - 8 AA = 45 DA? Imbalances</blockquote>see any utility we can bring compared to crusaders? nop me neither... so yes we need to have a higher DA then you and by a large amount, especially when your regular auto attack is around 8k+ and ours is around 4k</blockquote>Yes, crusaders get the uber utility. I always invite them to raids and group for their uility <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />Cruaders auto attack is 8K and zerker is 4k?What are you talking about?Two handers? Two handers are junk compared to dual weilding and worthless for tanking.Also DW could possibly be an option of you guys when not tanking, now that you are not force to do the sta line.

Triste-Lune

10-31-2008, 01:05 PM

lol you didnt saw crusader's 6second delay epic... guess what it actually hit for that amount... and that s with mediocre group buffs

Mogzilla

10-31-2008, 01:31 PM

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>lol you didnt saw crusader's 6second delay epic... guess what it actually hit for that amount... and that s with mediocre group buffs</blockquote>And?And a zerker with a clue will do roughly twice the dps of a paladin or SK given equal gear thru ROK due to the way itemization worked out.

MellowBob

10-31-2008, 02:03 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Adrenaline is already changed. Also the stamina line has been reworked quite a bit and no longer has a buckler requirement.</blockquote>Whoa wha? /golfclap <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" />

LygerT

10-31-2008, 02:12 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demurg wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crusaders - 8 AA = 17 DA, warriors - 8 AA = 45 DA? Imbalances</blockquote>amends = what? imbalancesstamina3 used to be 76% btw.</blockquote>Sk's get ammends?</blockquote>nope but they will get something even more superior to that in TSO, the best plate dps.what does this have to do with zerk balance again? whomever started this probably hasn't tested beta yet.if you haven't heard about SK changes then you either live under a rock or are here trolling on purpose.

LygerT

10-31-2008, 02:18 PM

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>Best main tank : guard pally berserker SK Best off tank : SK berserker pally guard Cuchilla, that is the order for the plat tank</blockquote>Quite honestly that looks to be perfectly balanced and the way it should be.</blockquote>i dont think so Tim, it shouldnt be like that... where do you see balance when crusader offer better utility and tanking for pally and better utility offtanking and DPS for SK, who wants a class that doesnt bring anything to the raid except leech buffs.btw what are you doing here? should you be in the brawlers boards mourning the death of brawlers instead of the warrior ones?</blockquote>i wouldn't honestly say that is true, if you look at all of the buffs we provide now we are a great melee group buffer, we are standalones and really don't require much in the way of buffs from others.

victer

10-31-2008, 02:51 PM

i dont want to rain on everyones parade but please keep posts in this thread specific to zerker issues, whats wrong with the class, and how to fix it.Start a new thread if you want to talk about other classes or how we compare to them. The first thing people were worried about when Aeralik made his post was "ZOMG! whats gonna happen to the gaurdian epic?!".This is a zerker thread not a "insert your class here" thread.The point of this thread is to have a easy to read compilation of informative ideas that is updated every day. That way the devs can come back anytime they want and easily check to see how we think the class is designed.Dont get everything confused by starting to talk about random things. Please keep this thread on point.Thanks! And keep those idea's coming im sure theres more out there that we can list.

victer

10-31-2008, 03:00 PM

<cite>Jaylo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Berserker AA Tree - Executioner's Anger: See above... same as "Blood Regeneration".<ol><li>Same as above.</li><li>Reduce duration from 45 seconds to 15-20s.</li></ol></blockquote>From what I saw, the buff has a 45 second duration, but it is refreshed every 15 seconds. The heal when you fall below 30% health can trigger every 15 seconds.The only reason that I can see why the duration was increased to 45 seconds was to remove the distraction of the buff flashing constantly as it counted down to expiration.</blockquote>can someone verify this please? im at work for 4 more hours.And if it has been changed to 15 secs is that enough to make everyone happy? Or is a higher heal needed? or % based or something.The thing i dont like is that at its current state it doesnt scale with levels. at lvl 100 it will still only heal for 1k.

Klaktar

10-31-2008, 03:21 PM

Well Adrenaline is working properly, and following the description the ability has had since...well since my zerker hit 80 anyways. Still no changes to the Stamina line. Any idea when this will be implemented on Beta? (I assume it's something we have to wait for until TSO on Live?)Oh, and the "fix" to adrenaline sucks, by the way. It's hard enough to keep your power up as it is on Live servers, this is just a joke now. We lose power, and s a result lose aggro. Adrenaline may save us but it basically kills other people. Slightly long recast, no power drain. Only functions while berserk anyways.Not like I expect to be heard, since Aeralik has such a huge issue with Brigands, but oh well. I'll remove Adrenaline from my hotbar when TSO drops, and tell my healers to suck it up so the DPS doesn't die.

MindParadox

10-31-2008, 03:58 PM

what is the compensation we got for the 31% drop in DA?Honestly, we should make up that DA with an improved ability to DW, not only in terms of weapon useage, but in terms of survivability(fly me out there, ill show you what someone who is trained and skilled using two weapons can do to a target dummy, er, i mean, person using one weapon and shield)Alternately, add shields to the game with slashing abilities, it wasnt uncommon in alot of the cultures to use a sharpened metal edge on one side of the shield as a slashing weapon, or a spike in the middle as a piercing weapon to pin your enemy to your shield, relieving you of the mass, and interfering with their mobility(if not impaling them with the spike, most of them were designed with barbs to stick and hold the shield in the armor, like putting arrows into a shield to make it unwieldy)With some VERY simple creativity(especially since this is a fantasy game, and therefore not limited to historical weaponry[see: Zerker Epic, a cross between a reciprocating saw and a ginsu knife])Oh, and by the way, try testing these changes with entirely group gear, not a mix of raid and group, or the (utterly ridiculous) create a new character, get the fabled armor set from VP and crap jewelry with dual wield weapons and kite shield as it is on test nowAlso, try the changes (i will be tonight) with no gear from RE2 or Veksar, some of us have appearantly managed to somehow not be able to live in there with only two healers, 59% Mit, and 50.7% avoidance in defensive (the mobs appear to ignore both stats on occasion)No Raid gear, Sebilis, COA, Maidens, and Voes gear only. I have my fabled epic. you can view my exact gear set via EQ2Players.com and look for me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (52 runs thru Chelsith with 4 master spells(total), Barons frog legs(legendary item) almost everytime, and one druid belt(legendary?, cant remember, wont go back there ever again)once you use that spec(or a similar one) and test it thoroughly, tell me what you think of the changes

Obadiah

10-31-2008, 04:17 PM

Adrenaline change isn't in yet.Stamina line change isn't in yet.Patience.

Slayer505

10-31-2008, 04:36 PM

<cite>Demurg wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crusaders - 8 AA = 17 DA, warriors - 8 AA = 45 DA? Imbalances</blockquote>No that's not unbalanced at all. Warriors have fewer ways to increase DPS then Crusaders do. Spell crit and spell procs do nothing for a Warrior, but they can make a considerable boost to Crusader DPS. Why do you think so many Crusaders max out spell crit? Granted in general Berserkers do more DPS then Pallies and SKs, but I don't have Amends, I can't heal myself and I don't have lifetaps and FD. You do. You have more utility, we have more DPS. That's called balance. As it stands now the plate tanks will be for the most part on equal footing once TSO launches and once we have 200 AA. I'd even venture to say SKs are going to be absolute beasts after the changes.

victer

10-31-2008, 04:39 PM

Thanks kurgan those 2 just confused the crap out of me.... 31% DA? Huh? No power cost on Adren [Removed for Content]?

Klaktar

10-31-2008, 04:48 PM

<cite>MindParadox wrote:</cite><blockquote>what is the compensation we got for the 31% drop in DA?</blockquote>31% loss? lol where'd you hear that? It's a 15% drop, not 31%.By the way, Obadiah, the Adrenaline change IS in. I checked it out today. The point is, Aeralik said the changes were done already, and I want to see the STA line. I'm willing to bet that we got screwed on something to compensate for the lack of shield requirement on the line.

MindParadox

10-31-2008, 04:49 PM

Sorry, I'm at work and got that confused with a figure i was working with here too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />either way, whats the compensation for a 15% drop? havent seen it yet really

LygerT

10-31-2008, 04:57 PM

by changed Aeralik meant the updates are on his drive waiting to be downloaded to the beta client, you probably won't see the changes for a day or so.compensations are in the other thread listing the upgrades the class recieved.

Slayer505

10-31-2008, 05:18 PM

Yeah, no changes on beta yet. I'm betting the loss of DA won't be all that huge TBH.

MindParadox

10-31-2008, 05:20 PM

I have no idea as of yet myself, but i do know that i hope to god they arent only testing these changes at a raid geared levelnot all of us are able/willing to raid

Elanjar

10-31-2008, 05:27 PM

I dont think there's a "compensation" for losing the DA. Its just part of the rebalance. We do get a lot of new nifty abilities if you want to call those compensation. But its really just part of the fighter dps reduction.

Jaylo

10-31-2008, 07:12 PM

STA3 now maxes at 25% DA. No shield requirement at all, so it currently works with dual wield.

Klaktar

10-31-2008, 07:15 PM

Ok, big update just hit Beta. STA changes are in. Sigh.8 AA points = 25% DA regardless of your equipped shield. However, Reversal (just...reversal) seems to do more damage, but too be honest it's not a special ability so I never memorized the numbers. 8 pts is 625-1042 dmg when it procs, though. Also, STA4 (was riposte damage) increases the effectiveness of your shield, 1.5% per rank.I'm not really sure if I'm happy or upset with the change, to be honest.[EDIT] Damnit, beaten.[EDIT2] Lost Adrenaline now reduces power of caster by 4% instantly and every 3 seconds, for 30 seconds (No huge, instant power loss, just the 4% ticks). F**K YES. Thanks Aeralik, now I like this skill!

Obadiah

10-31-2008, 08:25 PM

Yeah, see NOW the changes to Adrenaline are in. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> They weren't this morning.There was a Perseverance change too. Didn't have a lot of time, don't recall the amounts, but it increased the heal amount by a nice chunk.

Bremer

10-31-2008, 08:30 PM

40 % mana for Adrenaline is still to expensive and still even more expensive than on live servers now.

victer

10-31-2008, 08:34 PM

kk... changes to the list<ul><li>both high priority issues have been removed thank you for the changes.</li><li>Relentless rage has been removed. The AA now increases 25% (5% per) resulting in 27total DPS mod </li><li>Perserverance seems to acutally working like it was when it was on a 15s cast. We need more testing here to see whats really going on... Removing it from the list for now.</li><li>Turmoil has been removed. It now has a 1.5sec casting time. Thank you.</li><li>Adding another issue with Blood Regeneration. It is only healing for the minimum heal.... my test was performed with the AA line from the Berserker Tree maxed out resulting in 284-426 heal. It was healing me for 284 every time it proced. Also didnt see it procing 1 out of 3 times i was getting hit was more like 1/7. Maybe have it proc on all inc dammage instead of melee attack?</li></ul>

Elanjar

10-31-2008, 08:51 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>40 % mana for Adrenaline is still to expensive and still even more expensive than on live servers now.</blockquote>dont you dare complain. were good, dont make anyone angry.

Endorplasmic

10-31-2008, 09:27 PM

Just logged into beta and saw the changes. Awesome news.Adrenaline is working the same now which is great, nerf to DA sucks but I'll take it since I was geting 0% DA while in a tower.STA4 was also a lot better than the reposte damage. (sheld effectivness boost)New Shadows AA for warriors which gives you stun immunity with each point (currently broken as it just stays at 2%)Changes in todays beta patch were definatly for the better.

Zaathaan

10-31-2008, 09:33 PM

<cite>Varuna@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, big update just hit Beta. STA changes are in. Sigh.8 AA points = 25% DA regardless of your equipped shield. However, Reversal (just...reversal) seems to do more damage, but too be honest it's not a special ability so I never memorized the numbers. 8 pts is 625-1042 dmg when it procs, though. Also, STA4 (was riposte damage) increases the effectiveness of your shield, 1.5% per rank.I'm not really sure if I'm happy or upset with the change, to be honest.[EDIT] Damnit, beaten.[EDIT2] Lost Adrenaline now reduces power of caster by 4% instantly and every 3 seconds, for 30 seconds (No huge, instant power loss, just the 4% ticks). F**K YES. Thanks Aeralik, now I like this skill!</blockquote>Huh ? Is this a bad joke ? For weeks now, we are told about 15% DA loss, noone never, never mentioned a ....35% DA loss !!!!!And please, no " Yes, but you can poor DA with a tower now " ....Like everyone here, I don't care to use a tower, every raiding zerk is fine, tanking with virtue's guard AND its 60% DA...!! Don't wanna be told too of the trakanon's shield, this is regarding 2 zerks on my server. Raiding for 99% of us is accessing to virtue's guard or the SOH/Myliex tower shield. Dropping my virtue's guard for a tower is giving me 0.6% avoidance, and of course, I won't loose 35% DA for that ROFL !I read carefully most of the changes, some stuff seems to be better, some others well....But if we're dropping from 60% DA to....25, absolutely nothing will come in balance to this HUGE CLASS NERF !Like most of us, as a raid OT, what makes me valuable is that when not offtanking I'm a T2 dps, 4K-4K5 on trash ( more than half the time in a 4 hours raid ), and for nothing i would want to drop that. Autoattack is about 60% of our dps, and DA in such a case is priceless....!Sorry for my poor english, frenchie here <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />

Xalmat

10-31-2008, 10:58 PM

Though the double attack is getting nerfed pretty hard compared to Live, several things people are ignoring:* STR 4 now not only increases hate gain, but also the hate amount of taunts on top of the hate gain (maxed out is 8% hate gain, 24% better taunt effectiveness)* STA 3 lets you dual wield and keep the double attack. Which depending on what weapons you're using will be an upgrade DPS wise over buckler spec.* Most importantly, STA 3 lets you keep the double attack while using a tower shield. Which is much better than what we have now with a tower shield.* STA 4 increases shield effectiveness across the board. Which means that the preferred tanking style of a zerker is no longer with a dinner plate.* Several of our abilities got innate upgrades, not even factoring in TSO AAs: Insolence now has a damage component, Hold Rage now increases parry and shield effectiveness, Adrenaline now only drains 40% of our power, Relentless Rage now increases DPS instead of HP regen, Rescue is now on a 5 minute timer instead of 10. Not to mention the mythical (for those lucky to have it) had its worn effect changed in a very positive way.

victer

10-31-2008, 11:19 PM

yep were looking ok now nothing major to complain about.If blood regeneration gets fixed so that it doesnt always only heal you for the minimum heal then we are done and GTG ready for TSO

Zaathaan

10-31-2008, 11:44 PM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>Though the double attack is getting nerfed pretty hard compared to Live, several things people are ignoring:* STR 4 now not only increases hate gain, but also the hate amount of taunts on top of the hate gain (maxed out is 8% hate gain, 24% better taunt effectiveness)- Absolutely no aggro prob here with the RoK build, if everyone in the raid do his job, so little value for me* STA 3 lets you dual wield and keep the double attack. Which depending on what weapons you're using will be an upgrade DPS wise over buckler spec.- We know what we loose : 35% DA, 1K-1K5 dps...we don't know what we gain...? Anybody parsed with a good fabled weapon in offhand, or we just 'hope' we'll reach our 4K5 dps again with it ?* Most importantly, STA 3 lets you keep the double attack while using a tower shield. Which is much better than what we have now with a tower shield.- ...And that's why no zerk used to tank with a tower shield ! With 1K mitig from virtue's guard and +8% parry/riposte from STA line, we HAD our 'tower shield' ( AND 60% DA, not 25% rofl )* STA 4 increases shield effectiveness across the board. Which means that the preferred tanking style of a zerker is no longer with a dinner plate.* Several of our abilities got innate upgrades, not even factoring in TSO AAs: Insolence now has a damage component, Hold Rage now increases parry and shield effectiveness, Adrenaline now only drains 40% of our power, Relentless Rage now increases DPS instead of HP regen, Rescue is now on a 5 minute timer instead of 10. Not to mention the mythical (for those lucky to have it) had its worn effect changed in a very positive way.- Yep, some very good stuff I must admit...but again, dropping in the DPS parse 'cause of that DA huge nerf won't worth the deal at my sense....In fact, I'm very happy to play my zerk as it is now, pre-ToS !</blockquote>

Xalmat

11-01-2008, 12:18 AM

Fine, we'll play it your way.We lost DPS, which means we won't be holding aggro as well.Guardians lost out on the double attack as well, and their mythical now has a crappy effect thats barely worth using.Guess that means DPS classes are going to have to learn how to control their aggro now, doesn't it?Berserkers are tanks, their job is to hold aggro and take the hits. As long as you're doing your job (holding aggro), and everyone else is doing theirs (healing you, DPS without peeling aggro, etc), who cares what your DPS is?If you want to DPS, roll an assassin.

tikasa

11-01-2008, 12:43 AM

<cite>Endorplasmic wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just logged into beta and saw the changes. Awesome news.Adrenaline is working the same now which is great, nerf to DA sucks but I'll take it since I was geting 0% DA while in a tower.STA4 was also a lot better than the reposte damage. (sheld effectivness boost)New Shadows AA for warriors which gives you stun immunity with each point (currently broken as it just stays at 2%)Changes in todays beta patch were definatly for the better.</blockquote>For OTs the Sta line rules... it works on Dual Wielding If you draw aggro... swap to tower

Zaathaan

11-01-2008, 12:50 AM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fine, we'll play it your way.We lost DPS, which means we won't be holding aggro as well.Guardians lost out on the double attack as well, and their mythical now has a crappy effect thats barely worth using.Guess that means DPS classes are going to have to learn how to control their aggro now, doesn't it?Berserkers are tanks, their job is to hold aggro and take the hits. As long as you're doing your job (holding aggro), and everyone else is doing theirs (healing you, DPS without peeling aggro, etc), who cares what your DPS is?Maybe you played your Zerk til today with the only goal to keep aggro as an OT during the 30% time of the raid you had to fight some adds....nice, that's good for the beginning. For me this was goal one. Goal two was to keep a tier 2 dps, about 4K-4K5, during the 70% left time of the raid. That made me a valuable OT <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /> and, better than this, it added a lot to my gameplay to search for defensive stuff, offensive stuff, switch my stances a lot of time during a raid, switch my stuff a lot of times ( macroing )....versatility made this class very attractive for me. Anyone playing his zerk as a scout or as a guardian is missing 50% of the class....If you want to DPS, roll an assassin.Oh, yes. And if you want to tank, go for a guardian. And if you wanna solo roll a coercer, etc etc....Maybe YOU should roll for a guardian, because as you said, even with a poor dps, who cares if you keep aggro ? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> Sorry, I'm an offtank, guardians MT better than me, Assassins dps better than me, but I'm a good tank, and a nice dps in raid...I'm a zerk ! )</blockquote>

JerronBlacksilver

11-01-2008, 02:08 AM

As a player with an 80 Zerker with a mythical, I can appreciate your mourning the loss of so much DA. But as a player with an 80 Dirge (which is my main) I'd also ask you to remember you guys will be getting Battle Cry (+15% DA, +5% Flurry) every time you have a (smart) Dirge in your group.So really, the sky is not falling. I love the berserker class, and it looks like TSO will be very good indeed for berserkers. STA line with a tower shield is just awesome.

Slayer505

11-01-2008, 05:20 AM

With full raid buffs currently on live, I sit at 102% DA BEFORE my Mythical and Jewel of Animosity proc. That means that after the changes I'll be at 67% before procs, and make that 83% with the new Dirge AA. When procs go off that's going to still put me over 100%.... with a tower or dual wielding. Sounds good to me! The sky is NOT falling. I know for me and many other top end Berserkers it was/is very possible to end up sitting at 130% DA when procs go off.I've said it before and I'll say it again, we're getting far more then we're losing. The only fighters really not getting much out of this expansion are Guardians since they really didn't need much.

Samant

11-01-2008, 05:50 AM

Only problem I really see is the people that get lots of groups, have mythicals or raid saying whats good and not good. But no one has even considered what the person that ends up not having there mythicals, groups alot or find getting a raid spot loses. From the way I been reading all the post's that person is the one that loses more then any of those posting before me as a berserker.

Triste-Lune

11-01-2008, 06:27 AM

why is adrenaline adp1 drain 3.2% power/3 sec and adrenaline m1 draining 4%? i m glad i have the m1 cause i also love being drained more and having bigger drawback then when i was using a lower quality version of the spell. the new dirgue buff will never go to a tank, it will go to the scout in your group so dont count on it. why is our defensive stance not giving agi and wis bonus like the guardian one?

Hardain

11-01-2008, 07:10 AM

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote> why is our defensive stance not giving agi and wis bonus like the guardian one?</blockquote>Because we don't use it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />These changes are pretty awesome, only problem is that i need to find new weapon for DW and tower shield now.

Klaktar

11-01-2008, 07:38 AM

I swear, some of you guys make me want to scream. Berserkers finally got some attention that we desperately NEEDED. Less DA? So what. Run the numbers, your DA will still be quite high in raids with a decent group (actually, with just a dirge). Now we can use tower shields, which means less usage of our defensive stance which means more DPS.Oh and anyone saying they are losing 1k-1.5k dps from the loss of that STA3 double attack is a f***ing liar and you know it. Reversal still works, as long as you have a shield. Wanna dps? Make macros to swap between dual wielding and using a tower/epic.We are NOT a dps class. We are TANKS. We just got an A*SLOAD of survivability with a pretty minimal hit to DPS, all things considered. Stop f**king complaining already. It's been said already, but if you want to DPS go roll an assassin. ANd before anyone says it, we were given hate gain tools which more than make up for any loss in DPS. This is just like the defiler in my raid earlier who was complaining about not showing on the (dps) parse, even though she has a coercer which was (and should be) her main.Once TSO goes live, Berserkers will be in the best shape I've ever seen them in. Don't take it for granted, don't screw this up. (Also don't forget how everyone has been ranting and raving about having to use bucklers -including me- for 3 years...)

Slayer505

11-01-2008, 08:07 AM

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>why is adrenaline adp1 drain 3.2% power/3 sec and adrenaline m1 draining 4%? i m glad i have the m1 cause i also love being drained more and having bigger drawback then when i was using a lower quality version of the spell. the new dirgue buff will never go to a tank, it will go to the scout in your group so dont count on it. why is our defensive stance not giving agi and wis bonus like the guardian one?</blockquote>Nope, sorry. I'm MT and the only scout in my group is the Dirge. Not all of us OT and with this expansion I'm betting more guilds are going to be willing to give Berserkers a shot at the MT spot.EDIT: And to the guy above me... yup, couldn't have said it better myself.

Kage8

11-01-2008, 08:14 AM

OK to all you raiders who only care about yourself's go F**k yourselves.There are people in this game that dont raid. Maby you dont care about these people, i know the devs dont, but they play the game too ya know. Stop being so self centered. BTW I have been a raider in the past, could have my mythical if i didnt decide to leave game a few months ago, but i know that there are alot of players out there that dont have uber raid gear or 130% DA.Im not sure how Zerkers are ganna be after this expansion but the 35% DA nerf is not something im too happy about atm. I dont know, i have a 80 zerk and 80 guardian, im probibly ganna play the zerker first but for all thoes people happy to trade in all the dps for taunting agro and survivablilty maby we should all just play guardians.Im not saying the sky is falling or anything like that because no one will now what the deal is with the game untill TSO goes live. But please dont s**t on the non-raider saying they should be ok with a 35% DA nerf just because you have 130% in a stacked raid group with nice raid gear. Just for once think about people playing this game other than the raiders.

Bremer

11-01-2008, 08:17 AM

Funny how easy it is to please people. Adrenaline will cost almost 50 % more mana than on live servers now and people come and say "How dare you complaining".

Bremer

11-01-2008, 08:23 AM

In my opinion the Adrenaline mana cost should be under medium priority. And you should add our 3 AEs to low priority, with a cast time of 1.5-2 seconds and a weapon delay of under 1.5 seconds they are useless.Enhance Relentless Rage only adds 1 DPS point per AA point spent, that's in my opion not really worht spending points on it.

Kain-UK

11-01-2008, 08:29 AM

I'm a zerker...I don't raid. My DA on live is 66% on my own. My DPS mod is a fat 0... and my haste is 46. Melee crit? 34%My DPS is ok. I can hit 2k generally in groups, and i'm happy with that. As long as my DPS people don't go insane, I can hold aggro. My poor girlfriend can solo-heal me as a warden through places like Maidens and Chelsith (we haven't hit RE2 or Veksar yet, because everyone generally wants raiders for these zones on my server). She can generally keep the group alive too, unless they do something stupid.What do these changes mean for me, as a solo/heroic zerker? I think i'll be fine. Aggro is going to be a little harder to keep, and i'll have to change up my AA's to compensate. STR4 is nice, as I put 5 ranks in it for a straight up 5% hate mod on beta, and it's thrown my single target taunt up into the 2000's for hate gain. Battle hardening takes around 250 points off every hit I take, and the stoneskin helps a lot too.I think i'll be able to tank fine... and if I want to DPS, I guess I just whip out a second weapon and have fun. *grin*

Triste-Lune

11-01-2008, 09:10 AM

<cite>Karsgaar@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>why is adrenaline adp1 drain 3.2% power/3 sec and adrenaline m1 draining 4%? i m glad i have the m1 cause i also love being drained more and having bigger drawback then when i was using a lower quality version of the spell. the new dirgue buff will never go to a tank, it will go to the scout in your group so dont count on it. why is our defensive stance not giving agi and wis bonus like the guardian one?</blockquote>Nope, sorry. I'm MT and the only scout in my group is the Dirge. Not all of us OT and with this expansion I'm betting more guilds are going to be willing to give Berserkers a shot at the MT spot.EDIT: And to the guy above me... yup, couldn't have said it better myself.</blockquote>what is your group like? dirgue coercer 3 healer????? where is your hate transfer and most important why 3 healers?? an MT group has always been defiler templar digue coerce assassin/swashbuckler and Tank so the dirgue will give the buff to your hate transfer.

LygerT

11-01-2008, 10:30 AM

there's absolutely no reason you shouldn't be using adornments to get at least 20 base DPS mod.

Obadiah

11-01-2008, 12:52 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Funny how easy it is to please people. Adrenaline will cost almost 50 % more mana than on live servers now and people come and say "How dare you complaining".</blockquote>It costs me 2.8% more mana on beta than on live. So yeah, I'm pleased.There are advantages and disadvantages to it being spread out. No big deal either way.

Bremer

11-01-2008, 01:18 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Funny how easy it is to please people. Adrenaline will cost almost 50 % more mana than on live servers now and people come and say "How dare you complaining".</blockquote>It costs me 2.8% more mana on beta than on live. So yeah, I'm pleased.There are advantages and disadvantages to it being spread out. No big deal either way.</blockquote>Depends on the testing enviroment of course. On a raid it will be a lot more expensive (now ~2.6k, then 3.5-4k).

LygerT

11-01-2008, 01:32 PM

it shouldn't be free, like some people suggest either.if the power cost is seriously giving you that much of an issue even on live currently then you need to kick your chanters, because they're worthless and they have completely forgotten they are also utility.

LygerT

11-01-2008, 02:11 PM

perseverence still is a bit buggy, though the heal amount was increased by about 60% after it procs there is a gap of about 15 seconds before the 45 second timer and heal buff pop back up.once it counts down from 45 seconds it refreshes at 30 seconds so something is overwriting it with the previous 15 second duration. notably in this form it cannot proc 2 times subsequently as it should, meaning you have to wait 15 seconds before it can proc again.

Bremer

11-01-2008, 03:03 PM

Of course it shouldn't be free, it is a very powerfull spell, but it is still only a chance to take less damage, a good one, but nevertheless still only a chance. You can't use it on fights that require power management (Venril Sathir) and if you are not MT and in the raid focus you'll have real trouble with your power. The power cost should be lowered, not increased and ideally the power cost should be reduced for every second you weren't Beserk while the spell was running.

LygerT

11-01-2008, 03:34 PM

sounds like alot of calculations for such a miniscule amount of power saved. yes offtank focus does suck and i see my chanters slack off from time to time but the reality of it is the new change is almost the same as it was and i can accept that. keep asking for it to be changed and we might wind up with something completely useless again.

victer

11-01-2008, 04:12 PM

Adrenaline is fine where it is. Its a little worse then whats on live but obviously they think the penalty on live isnt enough so they wanted to do this. Its working fine. The only thing you can say now about it is it should drain the same power per rank of the spell (like it is on live) and upgrades to the spell just increase the duration (like it does on live).I'm suprised you guys arent as concerned about Blood regeneration as i am. Its only healing for the minimum which is horrible. And the proc just doesnt seem to go off 33% of the time more like 15%

LygerT

11-01-2008, 04:20 PM

i'll let the soloers handle that one. last time i said something, well... i don't want to go back into it. my % based heal system obviously wasn't accepted.

Slayer505

11-01-2008, 08:38 PM

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>what is your group like? dirgue coercer 3 healer????? where is your hate transfer and most important why 3 healers?? an MT group has always been defiler templar digue coerce assassin/swashbuckler and Tank so the dirgue will give the buff to your hate transfer.</blockquote>Yes, Temp, Defiler, Warden, Coercer, Dirge. Lot's of people run with that set up. Saying things like "an MT group has always been X" is a pretty arrogant statement. Not everyone runs with your exact group set up and last time I checked there is no required way to set up an MT group. Why do I need a scout hate transfer when the Coercer is cranking out 6-7k DPS both transferring it to me, boosting my DPS through buffs, AND boosting my own hate gain? This is the same MT group set up we've been using since KOS and it obviously works since we clear all the instanced content in ROK every week.

LygerT

11-01-2008, 10:16 PM

warden is just an added security blanket.

Kain-UK

11-02-2008, 05:14 AM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>there's absolutely no reason you shouldn't be using adornments to get at least 20 base DPS mod.</blockquote>Yes there is.I'm not made of money... and I refuse to throw adornments on items i'm looking at replacing when said adornment is a good 20p a go.

Triste-Lune

11-02-2008, 05:38 AM

<cite>Karsgaar@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>what is your group like? dirgue coercer 3 healer????? where is your hate transfer and most important why 3 healers?? an MT group has always been defiler templar digue coerce assassin/swashbuckler and Tank so the dirgue will give the buff to your hate transfer.</blockquote>Yes, Temp, Defiler, Warden, Coercer, Dirge. Lot's of people run with that set up. Saying things like "an MT group has always been X" is a pretty arrogant statement. Not everyone runs with your exact group set up and last time I checked there is no required way to set up an MT group. Why do I need a scout hate transfer when the Coercer is cranking out 6-7k DPS both transferring it to me, boosting my DPS through buffs, AND boosting my own hate gain? This is the same MT group set up we've been using since KOS and it obviously works since we clear all the instanced content in ROK every week.</blockquote>sorry, i should have wrote our MT group have always been. by not puttin a scout in the same group as a dirgue you are loosing a lot of dps, warden arent really needed in MT Group or in any raid (blame SOE for making the really undesirable). we are usually running with 5 healers (sometime only 4 but that s cause 1 is a slacker) in the raid wich works for us.

Slayer505

11-02-2008, 10:00 AM

We run scout heavy and so we usually run with three Dirges and one Troub. Every scout has a Dirge. I like having the Warden in the MT group for the extra weapon skill, especially fighting level 87-88 mobs and it also eases the burden on the other two healers, especially on all the cure heavy fights in this expansion. Whatever works though, I always say.

LygerT

11-02-2008, 12:03 PM

because plat is so hard to get 'n stuff.

victer

11-02-2008, 01:39 PM

if you get a warden who can play well they can be a huge help in the raid.Wardens can heal the whole raid without blinking.And they alone let warriors tank in d-stance with their melee skill buff.But /cough getting off topic! This thread is about zerker problems! /cracks whip

victer

11-02-2008, 01:59 PM

i'm really not likeing that the Blood regeneration proc is only healing the minimum. Makeing a pretty crappy skill to be even more crappy.i was thinknig about moving from medium priority to high but want to know if you guys are as conserned about it as i am.The idea of the skill isnt too bad if it would just work right. Think about it... 5 AA's into this skill is supposed to let you heal up to 400. Thats not completely useless...its almost like you avoid 400 dammage 33% of the time. Thats really weak against epics but for the other stuff its not too bad.Obviously we'd all like it changed so that its more usefull in raids but its looking like they dont want to make much more changes to it. And they already helped us a ton in the last few days. I just dont want to anoy them lol.But right now its doing the minimum it possibly could do and that just sucks.

LygerT

11-02-2008, 02:20 PM

i'm semi concerned but i wouldn't call it high priority. perseverence is still semi broken as well but honestly they're better than the regen was and our raidwide dps got bumped up slightly, i noticed it was either 27 or 28 dps mod instead of the 25 i saw last time i checked with AAs into it. overall i don't think we have much room to complain about the changes to all of our regen lines now.

Bremer

11-02-2008, 02:23 PM

Maybe you should split the list into gameplay and bugs, because Blood Reg only proccing for the minimum amount ist definetely a bug, like the Force Sight not working. And bugs are more likely getting fixed than gameplay balance stuff.

victer

11-02-2008, 02:37 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maybe you should split the list into gameplay and bugs, because Blood Reg only proccing for the minimum amount ist definetely a bug, like the Force Sight not working. And bugs are more likely getting fixed than gameplay balance stuff.</blockquote>good idea man.added thisBug ReportThis will be a list of skills and effects used by the berserker that are currently not working as described in the description. <ul><li>Blood Regeneration: The heal only heals for the minimum heal ammount. For instance if the spell reads 284-426 each time it will only heal for 284. </li><li>TSO Warrior AA Tree - Absobing Blows: Additional AA's added after the initial one are not adding up. 5 AA's in this adds 2% Stun resist when it should be 10%. </li></ul>theres more we can add to this im sure

Cuchilla

11-03-2008, 03:50 PM

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>Best main tank : guard pally berserker SK Best off tank : SK berserker pally guard Cuchilla, that is the order for the plat tank</blockquote>So is that it? You want to be a MT make a guard, you want to be a OT make an SK, and you want to Dee pee ess go make an assassin? Ok.

LygerT

11-03-2008, 08:40 PM

wahcry me a river if you don't think player skill isn't in there somewhere or the most important thing: having fun.

Cuchilla

11-03-2008, 08:56 PM

Player skill. So you have a Guardian with high gamer skill and a Berserker with high gamer skill. Guardian is still better suited for the job. So, having fun, I don't see much fun in being a class that virtually isn't really good at MT or OT so basically what Zerker becomes is that "tank" you'll take in your Raid/Team if you can't find a better one. Guard, Pally, SK.Fun is being a useful class and to be excepted into groups and raids. I don't know but from all this I'm reading since NDA was lifted the class is still getting the short end of the stick. Shouldn't Berserkers being the opposite of Guardians be contesting Guards for the main tank spot instead of fighting with crusader tanks to see who the best Off Tank is lol. Silly.

Morgue

11-03-2008, 09:19 PM

I personally do not see the need to betray to Guard or roll SK/Pally. I know of a few Guilds now on my server Running Zerker as MT and OT. I have been testing this beta since almost the begining as a Zerker and found the additions we are getting are a far sight more help then what we have lost. I do see a gap however from the lower end of the game to the high end. An Average Zerker of lower lvl will have a lot more trouble holding agro. This game is going the route EQ1 took and requiring your AAs to properly do the job. MMOs always trend towards the better equiped character, skill plays a roll with equally equiped characters. Personally I would have liked 40DA on Stam3 but as is we can DW and DPS w/o the need to get a lot of Extra DA from items. If that was intended Im not sure. And the Stamina line looks more like what I think it was intended. On a side note I think zerkers should be able to DW and tank...but that would only be possible if we got more parry or dmg resistance while using a 2nd weapon. At any rate I am not unhappy with my Zerker. I will continue to plug away and hope for better changes. Its a game at any rate and the other tanks just dont suite my playstyle.-Raz

Slayer505

11-03-2008, 11:04 PM

<cite>Cuchilla@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Player skill. So you have a Guardian with high gamer skill and a Berserker with high gamer skill. Guardian is still better suited for the job. So, having fun, I don't see much fun in being a class that virtually isn't really good at MT or OT so basically what Zerker becomes is that "tank" you'll take in your Raid/Team if you can't find a better one. Guard, Pally, SK.Fun is being a useful class and to be excepted into groups and raids. I don't know but from all this I'm reading since NDA was lifted the class is still getting the short end of the stick. Shouldn't Berserkers being the opposite of Guardians be contesting Guards for the main tank spot instead of fighting with crusader tanks to see who the best Off Tank is lol. Silly.</blockquote>Oh please... Guardians are getting almost nothing in this expansion, probably because they needed the least help. We could already tank anything a Guardian could. If the mob is dead the mob is dead, it isn't any more dead because a Guardian tanked it instead of a Berserker. Especially since they made it viable for us to tank with a tower shield, the gap has closed even more. We have just as many snap aggro tools as they do now and way better AE aggro. They have Tower of Stone and Stone Sphere, we have the new AA that's a mini-TOS and Adrenaline (which is STILL the best defensive skill in the game even with the increased power cost). If anything it's even more competitive now for tanks than it was before. I could even see SKs being very viable as an MT option now. The only problem now is all those people still stuck in the mind set of "Guardians are the only MTs." Anyone that doesn't see that needs to get their head out of their rear. And yes, player skill is a much higher factor then anything else when determining who is the best tank. After the expansion there's going to be some mediocre Guardians that were the de facto tank because they were the Guardian (which many see as the ONLY MT class right now), being replaced by Berserkers, Pallies and yes, even SKs that are better players and who have a chip on their shoulder because they've been passed over in favor of a Guardian so many times. I for one am glad the playing field is being evened. No more coasting along for a lot of Guardians. They might actually have to go out and prove they're the better tank rather then just having it assumed.

LygerT

11-04-2008, 06:55 AM

take a look at my gear, do you think i bought it all? do you think i pleaded with a guild to drag me along so i could leech off of them? no, i earned it. just as i was there giving my input when we first got our mythicals and now that our MT(also our guild leader) knows i am capable i MT half of the time while he does the real life thing. i even competed with the almighty overpowered guardian for this spot, guess what? they said i kicked *** over him and i took over as OT also against the overpowered amends equipped paladin who retired.if we're such craptastic tanks then why would my guild subject itself to so much pain to make me tank in front of them all? no, we're not as good as guardians first time through a zone but we're getting better at that. do you want your last time as a zerk known as sitting there comparing all of your worth vs amends? vs tower of stone? vs death march? we have our own abilities that come close to those but in different ways.people say alot of the same things about SKs, we just took in an app since they're getting a boost in TSO and his tanking skill surprised me after all of the doom and gloom i keep hearing about SKs as tanks and how they're wet paper towels who can't DPS or hold aggro or take 2 hits before hitting the ground. it's all a mind**** that people put on their own class because they are unhappy themselves. yes we all have our problems but we ALL can do our jobs just fine, even brawlers. as much as people want to deny it, player skill is, has and always will be a factor when choosing a raid tank. for pickups there will always be stereotypes and there is no applying for a spot, so if this is your complaint you have to prove your whole server wrong as i helped to do.now quit bringing me down with all this BS about how we're worthless and no one wants us because if you want to accept that then that is your choice. i am a zerker and i never lay down for anyone.

Slayer505

11-04-2008, 11:35 AM

Couldn't have said it better myself Lyger. Player skill means a lot more then most people know, especially for tanks. We have an SK in our raid force and he mainly does DPS and plays third tank when we need one, but I've seen our Guardian OT go down to an unlucky double attack when someone pulled an extra mob in VP and he tanked the mob until the raid killed the one I had pulled with only a Fury in his group and some cross healing. He's done this lots of times and I always joke that he better not let the SK Union know he's tanking raid mobs or they'll revoke his membership <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> Don't tell me player skill means nothing.

victer

11-04-2008, 04:25 PM

Zerkers have not looked any better... ever. But neither has all the other tanks. Gaurdians will say different but all they need is a rebuff to thier mythical and they are ready. The Gaurds that got hit the hardest are the ones with the mythical. The ones without it got a nice upgrade (which was one major gaurdian complaint). Same with the zerkers without thier mythical. The ROK easymode tanks have to actaully work and proove that they deserve thier raid spots over the other tanks now and that is exaclty the way it should be. We had to proove ourselves for the last few years... and dont get me wrong we still do but thats the thing... every tank needs to proove to the other 23 people that they are the right PLAYER for the spot... not the class. Our biggest issues in KOS to ROK was AE content and possitional hate. Both have been answered in this expantion so we are looking golden.I personally think that tank balancing is done. All they need to do is rethink the new clicky thats on the gaurdian mythical (they really did get the shaft with it) and then we are done with tank balancing.As far as zerker issues go all i want is to see blood regeneration fixed/changed and ill be happy to play for another year.And we arent just looking good for raiding. Soloers are looking fantastic and group instance players look great too. It should be a very fun expantion for our class.

Elanjar

11-04-2008, 06:20 PM

Agreed. I hope this expansion really does bring this back to player skill being a deciding factor. Cause I know I play my class better than others I know but I still get passed over because I'm a zerker and i dont come with amends or reinforcements. Tank balance means that no one class gets the job just because they are that class. FACT

Triste-Lune

11-05-2008, 12:35 PM

why is blood regeneration only healing for the lowest end of the healing spread >_<

Xalmat

11-05-2008, 01:02 PM

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>why is blood regeneration only healing for the lowest end of the healing spread >_<</blockquote>Because it's bugged, most likely.

Obadiah

11-05-2008, 01:03 PM

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>why is blood regeneration only healing for the lowest end of the healing spread >_<</blockquote>I have it from a high authority that this is on their list.Well, OK, actually I made that up. But I'm pretty sure they are aware of it and that it will get fixed. More /bug-ing probably wouldn't hurt. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

code

11-06-2008, 07:44 AM

<cite>Karsgaar@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh please... Guardians are getting almost nothing in this expansion, probably because they needed the least help. We could already tank anything a Guardian could. If the mob is dead the mob is dead, it isn't any more dead because a Guardian tanked it instead of a Berserker. Especially since they made it viable for us to tank with a tower shield, the gap has closed even more. We have just as many snap aggro tools as they do now and way better AE aggro. They have Tower of Stone and Stone Sphere, we have the new AA that's a mini-TOS and Adrenaline (which is STILL the best defensive skill in the game even with the increased power cost). If anything it's even more competitive now for tanks than it was before. I could even see SKs being very viable as an MT option now. The only problem now is all those people still stuck in the mind set of "Guardians are the only MTs." Anyone that doesn't see that needs to get their head out of their rear. And yes, player skill is a much higher factor then anything else when determining who is the best tank. After the expansion there's going to be some mediocre Guardians that were the de facto tank because they were the Guardian (which many see as the ONLY MT class right now), being replaced by Berserkers, Pallies and yes, even SKs that are better players and who have a chip on their shoulder because they've been passed over in favor of a Guardian so many times. I for one am glad the playing field is being evened. No more coasting along for a lot of Guardians. They might actually have to go out and prove they're the better tank rather then just having it assumed.</blockquote>If the Guardian is supposed to be the *defensive tank* and the zerker is supposed to be the *offensive tank*, but survivability is the same for both, the zerker does more dps, and has better multi-mob agro control....... why be a Guardian? Seems like false advertising all the sudden for Guardians. I see no reason to be a Guardian after the expansion.Not to mention the Guardian Mythical is laughable now. Sony must really hate Guardians <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Hell I might as well dust off my Guardian and betray to Berserker. Looks like Sony has picked them for the new MT.

LygerT

11-06-2008, 03:49 PM

i thought you quit already.hated them enough to make them overpowered for years. are you for real?the jewel of animosity change is really gonna hurt after this... going to cause aggro issues more for all tanks unless there is more DA gear put in game.

code

11-06-2008, 05:44 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>i thought you quit already.hated them enough to make them overpowered for years. are you for real?the jewel of animosity change is really gonna hurt after this... going to cause aggro issues more for all tanks unless there is more DA gear put in game.</blockquote>My question still stands. Why would anyone, after the expansion, choose a Guardian over a Berserker? And yes.. unfortunately I did quit, but AoC is pretty awesome!

LygerT

11-06-2008, 06:33 PM

because guards still have a slight edge in their defensive abilities, just their aggro needs work, and apparently so will ours again.but my question still stands as well. why troll a game forum after you decided to quit? now your post habits reflect your avatar.

bishop

11-06-2008, 07:30 PM

What change to jewel of animosity?

Obadiah

11-06-2008, 08:34 PM

<cite>bishoper wrote:</cite><blockquote>What change to jewel of animosity?</blockquote>You don't want to know.Instead of allowing you to mitigate the damage, it will now pretend it is Focus damage and do the full amount listed (6750 over 10 seconds?). 51,823% increase in damage for me. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

victer

11-06-2008, 09:23 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bishoper wrote:</cite><blockquote>What change to jewel of animosity?</blockquote>You don't want to know.Instead of allowing you to mitigate the damage, it will now pretend it is Focus damage and do the full amount listed (6750 over 10 seconds?). 51,823% increase in damage for me. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>ouchies thats news to me. Doesnt sound like were gonna want to use it tanking anymore.

LygerT

11-07-2008, 05:31 AM

probably not, but we kinda needed it.

Gisallo

11-07-2008, 05:58 AM

<cite>Cuchilla@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Player skill. So you have a Guardian with high gamer skill and a Berserker with high gamer skill. Guardian is still better suited for the job. So, having fun, I don't see much fun in being a class that virtually isn't really good at MT or OT so basically what Zerker becomes is that "tank" you'll take in your Raid/Team if you can't find a better one. Guard, Pally, SK.Fun is being a useful class and to be excepted into groups and raids. I don't know but from all this I'm reading since NDA was lifted the class is still getting the short end of the stick. Shouldn't Berserkers being the opposite of Guardians be contesting Guards for the main tank spot instead of fighting with crusader tanks to see who the best Off Tank is lol. Silly.</blockquote>Well let me think. My guild's MT for the last couple years was a OMG!!!! SK. He was a killer tank. Tanked us into VP, but went to another guild that fit with his personal views on raiding more (we are a little more laid back than most VP flagged guilds). Even in there he is the the primary OT I am told.As for with this expansion what does the Guard have that a berzerker doesn't? Really it just looks like Tower of Stone and 1 or two other things. Better? Maybe. Earth shatteringly better? Doesn't look it. And with the whole change to more AoE encounters it looks like a lot of the time the Zerker might actually be a better choice.It looks to me like SOE may be trying to create a "pick the best class for a specific job" kinda situation so that yeah, your Guard and Pally may be tanking a,b and c but your zerk and sk may be a better choice for x,y and z this way they can say "there is a place for their class and yours." Is it going to work? Who knows, but I am a stubborn SOB and am going to find out.

Gisallo

11-07-2008, 06:02 AM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>because guards still have a slight edge in their defensive abilities, just their aggro needs work, and apparently so will ours again.but my question still stands as well. why troll a game forum after you decided to quit? now your post habits reflect your avatar.</blockquote>What he said. Guards will still be a bit more raid wide power efficient to keep standing. For some guilds that have very good OT's this will be all the reason they need to stay with guards. If DPS is already covered (and it usually is most people like DPS classes) then you want your tank to stay standing at the least cost to the healers helping them do so. In high end raids efficiency is king and Guards will still have the edge there.

Triste-Lune

11-07-2008, 11:53 AM

bumping this thread. has the blood regen proc been fixed? is it still only procing for the lowest end of the proc?

Bremer

11-07-2008, 03:56 PM

The stun ressist is upgrading properly, the heal proc still doesn't work correctly.

victer

11-07-2008, 06:08 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>The stun ressist is upgrading properly, the heal proc still doesn't work correctly.</blockquote>can anyone confirm this? im at work for awhile still... ill change the first post if so

victer

11-08-2008, 02:33 PM

fix to the stun AA confirmed.removed from first post list

Gisallo

11-09-2008, 07:49 PM

Okay have been having trouble finding this and it does relate to the Zerker issue. I read somewhere (and now I can't find it) that there is a nerf to the general mechanic of Bucklers to further encourage the use of the bigger shields. Only reason I am wondering is I am about to equip the Ghostly Guard of Wrath. With its additional DA obviously I would like to tank with it, but if Bucklers have been nerfed then I need to ask if the extra DA is worth the loss in protection.So guess it comes down to...is there an overall buckler nerf, and if so what are the numbers? I tried searching and can't find anything now.

Bremer

11-09-2008, 08:35 PM

Just tested the heal, it procs now any amount between 284 and 420 and not only 284 anymore. @Gisallo Search harder <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Obadiah

11-09-2008, 10:27 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Okay have been having trouble finding this and it does relate to the Zerker issue. I read somewhere (and now I can't find it) that there is a nerf to the general mechanic of Bucklers to further encourage the use of the bigger shields. Only reason I am wondering is I am about to equip the Ghostly Guard of Wrath. With its additional DA obviously I would like to tank with it, but if Bucklers have been nerfed then I need to ask if the extra DA is worth the loss in protection.So guess it comes down to...is there an overall buckler nerf, and if so what are the numbers? I tried searching and can't find anything now.</blockquote>Well, Bucklers themselves stay the same. But the Stamina AA line no longer gives you 8% uncontested avoidance when using a buckler. Nor does it require that you use a buckler to get it's [reduced] double attack bonus. So if you continue to use a buckler, particularly any buckler besides Virtue's Guard, your avoidance will drop quite a bit.

Gisallo

11-09-2008, 10:55 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, Bucklers themselves stay the same. But the Stamina AA line no longer gives you 8% uncontested avoidance when using a buckler. Nor does it require that you use a buckler to get it's [reduced] double attack bonus. So if you continue to use a buckler, particularly any buckler besides Virtue's Guard, your avoidance will drop quite a bit.</blockquote>Okay that explains why I couldn't find it. I guess I got so lost in seeeing "buckler nerf" I thought I saw somewhere that the actual buckler item got nerfed (not just a line related to it). And while virtue's guard is great <a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-244510804">http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-244510804</a>It looks like (I could be wrong) that with the right gear on the Ghostly Guard of Wrath could have more protection and the +5 Double attack imho is better than the Guard. <a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/2102390603">http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/2102390603</a>. I say I could be wrong because I am still trying to work out exactly how Shield Block V works.

victer

11-10-2008, 12:27 AM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just tested the heal, it procs now any amount between 284 and 420 and not only 284 anymore. @Gisallo Search harder <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>can anyone confirm this?

Obadiah

11-10-2008, 12:12 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, Bucklers themselves stay the same. But the Stamina AA line no longer gives you 8% uncontested avoidance when using a buckler. Nor does it require that you use a buckler to get it's [reduced] double attack bonus. So if you continue to use a buckler, particularly any buckler besides Virtue's Guard, your avoidance will drop quite a bit.</blockquote>Okay that explains why I couldn't find it. I guess I got so lost in seeeing "buckler nerf" I thought I saw somewhere that the actual buckler item got nerfed (not just a line related to it). And while virtue's guard is great <a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-244510804">http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-244510804</a>It looks like (I could be wrong) that with the right gear on the Ghostly Guard of Wrath could have more protection and the +5 Double attack imho is better than the Guard. <a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/2102390603">http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/2102390603</a>. I say I could be wrong because I am still trying to work out exactly how Shield Block V works.</blockquote>Shield Block V would give you a 25% greater chance to block with a shield. Already a low chance with a buckler. With the GGoW I have an 11.1% chance to block. With VG, 13.1%. The 25% increase doesn't quite bring it up to match VG's high protection value. Although it's close enough that (after the reduction in DA) I'd probably use the GGoW.Probably moot in a week anyway with the changes though. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> I'll be sticking both in the bank to rot alongside the Buckler of the Howler.

victer

11-11-2008, 01:10 PM

blood regen is confirmed to heal the proper ammount now... removed from bugshowever its still only usefull for solo/pvp so im keeping it up as a medium priority.

Wilin

11-12-2008, 01:44 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shield Block V would give you a 25% greater chance to block with a shield. Already a low chance with a buckler. With the GGoW I have an 11.1% chance to block. With VG, 13.1%. The 25% increase doesn't quite bring it up to match VG's high protection value. Although it's close enough that (after the reduction in DA) I'd probably use the GGoW.Probably moot in a week anyway with the changes though. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> I'll be sticking both in the bank to rot alongside the Buckler of the Howler.</blockquote>Had a GGoW drop yesterday and I didn't even roll on it because of the incoming changes.

Vanario

11-12-2008, 06:38 PM

<cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>blood regen is confirmed to heal the proper ammount now... removed from bugshowever its still only usefull for solo/pvp so im keeping it up as a medium priority.</blockquote>The only way I could see this ability having any usefulness on a raid, as well as pvp/solo/grouping, would be if the spell was modified from ammount (200-400 or whatever the numbers are currently), to a % of damage received. For example, you would have upon being hit 33% chance to heal 15% of the damage received, meaning it would be a little less powerful than the current version while soloing, yet more useful in groups and raids. If you cut down some numbers500 damage would become 75 healed2000 damage would become 300 healed5000 damage would become 750 healedI believe it would still be somewhat useful in raids (giving us a chance of basically having a small heal upon a big hit), yet not game breaking like hit absorbtion abilities. But with only 6 days left before release, I don't see any chance to that ability being made, so we will most likely have to stick to blood regeneration still being rather useless for raiders. At least one of the 2 regen got turned into something somewhat useful, it's a start.

Obadiah

11-12-2008, 06:46 PM

<cite>Vanario wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>blood regen is confirmed to heal the proper ammount now... removed from bugshowever its still only usefull for solo/pvp so im keeping it up as a medium priority.</blockquote>The only way I could see this ability having any usefulness on a raid, as well as pvp/solo/grouping, would be if the spell was modified from ammount (200-400 or whatever the numbers are currently), to a % of damage received. For example, you would have upon being hit 33% chance to heal 15% of the damage received, meaning it would be a little less powerful than the current version while soloing, yet more useful in groups and raids. If you cut down some numbers500 damage would become 75 healed2000 damage would become 300 healed5000 damage would become 750 healedI believe it would still be somewhat useful in raids (giving us a chance of basically having a small heal upon a big hit), yet not game breaking like hit absorbtion abilities. But with only 6 days left before release, I don't see any chance to that ability being made, so we will most likely have to stick to blood regeneration still being rather useless for raiders. At least one of the 2 regen got turned into something somewhat useful, it's a start.</blockquote>The % based heal suggestion was made by several players long ago when the ability was first changed and was overpowered on Beta. It was reiterated multiple times. Obviously they didn't like that idea. The ability was instead simply reduced by 75% and never touched again. Not the end of the world. More useful than regen in multiple mob scenarios, less useful in single mob situations. In that sense it seems appropriate to me.

Hardkatt

11-13-2008, 05:06 PM

Hey all, you're favorite zerker Hawg here ! Have a couple questions for those in BETA.I read all the posts in this thread (phew!) and one person mentioned that the mythical worn effect was changed in a positive way. Can anyone tell what this change may be?Also, I have been acquiring all items that I find with shield effectiveness. I do have the Ghostly Guard of Wrath, but was wondering if this <a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=103358" target="_blank">Broken Toe Blocker</a> would be as good as a tower shield with no shield effectiveness? I assume like everything else worn SE stacks with AA?One more question, has SOE changed the final AA in strength line to make this line more desirable or are we going to stop at the taunt/threat aa?Everything looks really good! I, too, was a little timid about the DA going down, but after reading the posts here I feel that zerks will benefit from the expansion/update!Thanks for the information!!

Hardain

11-15-2008, 07:53 AM

25% of all incoming damage will be added as hate towards berserker, that's the new effect.That shield is ok, but it will still only have 1k prot after that 25% SE, allthough it has nice stats. You should try to get one with higher prot value, there's one in Chardok atleast and it's attuneable. All SE effects stack.I haven't checked the new Str end ability, but i doubt i would be going for it unless it's something to die for.

Hardkatt

11-15-2008, 10:57 PM

Thank Hardain! Great information!

Gisallo

11-17-2008, 12:24 AM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite>Shield Block V would give you a 25% greater chance to block with a shield. Already a low chance with a buckler. With the GGoW I have an 11.1% chance to block. With VG, 13.1%. The 25% increase doesn't quite bring it up to match VG's high protection value. Although it's close enough that (after the reduction in DA) I'd probably use the GGoW.Probably moot in a week anyway with the changes though. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> I'll be sticking both in the bank to rot alongside the Buckler of the Howler.</blockquote>Okay, but here was my thought. You have 11.1% + 25%= 36.1% uncontested avoidance. + whatever shield block gear you can find this uncontested avoidance appears to just climb. I have always read here that uncontested avoidance is King. Has this changed? Even though its not quite what other can be, I can't think of many shields that are easy to get that and also buff dps the way this does.

Giddo

11-17-2008, 01:46 AM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite>Shield Block V would give you a 25% greater chance to block with a shield. Already a low chance with a buckler. With the GGoW I have an 11.1% chance to block. With VG, 13.1%. The 25% increase doesn't quite bring it up to match VG's high protection value. Although it's close enough that (after the reduction in DA) I'd probably use the GGoW.Probably moot in a week anyway with the changes though. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> I'll be sticking both in the bank to rot alongside the Buckler of the Howler.</blockquote>Okay, but here was my thought. You have 11.1% + 25%= 36.1% uncontested avoidance. + whatever shield block gear you can find this uncontested avoidance appears to just climb. I have always read here that uncontested avoidance is King. Has this changed? Even though its not quite what other can be, I can't think of many shields that are easy to get that and also buff dps the way this does. </blockquote>This is not how these modifiers work otherwise it would be fairly easy to get to 100% block which would be ridiculous. You add 25% modifier to 11.1% shield block you add 25% of 11.1% to your total shield block; which is 2.78% for a total of 13.9%. That is why these modifiers become more effective the better the base protection on your shield is.Edit: the 11.1% the first poster listed included the 25% modifier on that shield, which was his point. The VG still beats the ggow protectionwise even with the 25% modifier. Regardless the +shield effectiveness does work as I previously explained. The +shield effectiveness is not additive it is a% based multiplier on the base shield block.Sikdom

Gisallo

11-17-2008, 02:39 AM

<cite>Giddo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite>This is not how these modifiers work otherwise it would be fairly easy to get to 100% block which would be ridiculous. You add 25% modifier to 11.1% shield block you add 25% of 11.1% to your total shield block; which is 2.78% for a total of 13.9%. That is why these modifiers become more effective the better the base protection on your shield is.Edit: the 11.1% the first poster listed included the 25% modifier on that shield, which was his point. The VG still beats the ggow protectionwise even with the 25% modifier. Regardless the +shield effectiveness does work as I previously explained. The +shield effectiveness is not additive it is a% based multiplier on the base shield block.Sikdom</blockquote>Okay but just one thing to add. If I understand now (also from talking to two of the best tanks on LdL) this 25% is done though AFTER all other modifiers are added in (gear, adornments, AA's etc) else the shield would logically simply have a higher base protection rather than a complicated modifier. So while base the shield is not as good, it does have the potential to be better depending on the bulk of the rest of your gear. Using rounded numbers for simplicity.10% shield block base. Add +3% from misc add ons. Add shield block V=16.25%VG 13.1%. Add +3 from misc add ons= 16.1%its complicated and a pain in the a** I'll admit, and it may not make using bucklers worth it (I am still going to wait and see if I feel I need the dps and am willing to forgoe the protection...my guild has AWESOME healers so I have a little cushion). Just trying to confirm how this shield block thingie works. I am not going to see the Trac shield for like ever because I am a "reserve" raid tank due to my availability so I am trying to figure out how I can min max what I am realistically going to have access to for those times the coach calls me from the bull pen.

Giddo

11-17-2008, 04:12 AM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giddo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite>This is not how these modifiers work otherwise it would be fairly easy to get to 100% block which would be ridiculous. You add 25% modifier to 11.1% shield block you add 25% of 11.1% to your total shield block; which is 2.78% for a total of 13.9%. That is why these modifiers become more effective the better the base protection on your shield is.Edit: the 11.1% the first poster listed included the 25% modifier on that shield, which was his point. The VG still beats the ggow protectionwise even with the 25% modifier. Regardless the +shield effectiveness does work as I previously explained. The +shield effectiveness is not additive it is a% based multiplier on the base shield block.Sikdom</blockquote>Okay but just one thing to add. If I understand now (also from talking to two of the best tanks on LdL) this 25% is done though AFTER all other modifiers are added in (gear, adornments, AA's etc) else the shield would logically simply have a higher base protection rather than a complicated modifier. So while base the shield is not as good, it does have the potential to be better depending on the bulk of the rest of your gear. Using rounded numbers for simplicity.10% shield block base. Add +3% from misc add ons. Add shield block V=16.25%VG 13.1%. Add +3 from misc add ons= 16.1%its complicated and a pain in the a** I'll admit, and it may not make using bucklers worth it (I am still going to wait and see if I feel I need the dps and am willing to forgoe the protection...my guild has AWESOME healers so I have a little cushion). Just trying to confirm how this shield block thingie works. I am not going to see the Trac shield for like ever because I am a "reserve" raid tank due to my availability so I am trying to figure out how I can min max what I am realistically going to have access to for those times the coach calls me from the bull pen. </blockquote>Again, that is not how it works...10% base block +3% shield block from various addons gets you to 13%, this is true. However in order to get 3% extra shield block on that shield you would have to have items totaling +30% shield effectiveness....But continuing on with your example, adding +25% shield effectiveness adds to the shield protection value only. So if your shield has a protection value of 700, you add a +25% modifier that shield now becomes 875 equivalent protection. Any other shield block modifiers are added to the base value not an exponential additive effect. So if you add another 10% it becomes 700x1.35 or 945. NOT 700x1.25x1.10 or 962.5.In any case the actual protection on your shield would end up being 15.5% not 16.25. 25% of 10% is 2.5%. 10+3+2.5=15.5Even a crappy tower shield is 18% shield block, without modifiers. I just bought one....Edit: If you are going to be tanking raid content you are going to be wanting to use a tower shield. The ONLY reason buckler tanking was viable for a berserker was the 8% uncontested avoidance in sta4 and of course the necessity to keep the 60% DA. That is gone now. The 5% da on the ggow is going to be insignificant when you are taking into account the buffs you will be getting in the MT group+ the effects on the new gear. It wont be worth losing the 6-10% shield block...Pretty sure they nerfed the DA to allow for progression going forward...IF you are dps'ing you should be dual wielding at this point because you will now be gaining 25% da while dual wielding.Sikdom

Gisallo

11-17-2008, 05:56 AM

<cite>Giddo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Again, that is not how it works...10% base block +3% shield block from various addons gets you to 13%, this is true. However in order to get 3% extra shield block on that shield you would have to have items totaling +30% shield effectiveness....But continuing on with your example, adding +25% shield effectiveness adds to the shield protection value only. So if your shield has a protection value of 700, you add a +25% modifier that shield now becomes 875 equivalent protection. Any other shield block modifiers are added to the base value not an exponential additive effect. So if you add another 10% it becomes 700x1.35 or 945. NOT 700x1.25x1.10 or 962.5.so why t f*** even have Shield Block V (or anything for that matter) instead of just having the shield listed as 875? Thats a needless complication isn't it? Regardless okey doke not saying I don't believe you I just think its a needlessly complicated mechanic when they could simply have increased the base protection of the shield <shrug>.</blockquote>

Hardain

11-17-2008, 06:24 AM

Having Shield Effectivines in shield might seem pointless, but when you get more gear with SE(TSO has lots of) you will gain more benefit from using shield with exactly same stats, but protection being even lower than the one with 25% SE.

Giddo

11-17-2008, 11:24 AM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giddo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Again, that is not how it works...10% base block +3% shield block from various addons gets you to 13%, this is true. However in order to get 3% extra shield block on that shield you would have to have items totaling +30% shield effectiveness....But continuing on with your example, adding +25% shield effectiveness adds to the shield protection value only. So if your shield has a protection value of 700, you add a +25% modifier that shield now becomes 875 equivalent protection. Any other shield block modifiers are added to the base value not an exponential additive effect. So if you add another 10% it becomes 700x1.35 or 945. NOT 700x1.25x1.10 or 962.5.so why t f*** even have Shield Block V (or anything for that matter) instead of just having the shield listed as 875? Thats a needless complication isn't it? Regardless okey doke not saying I don't believe you I just think its a needlessly complicated mechanic when they could simply have increased the base protection of the shield .</blockquote></blockquote>Here is my supposition on why they are putting +shield eff on low protection shields. Using the previous example..If we assume the shield eff cap is +100% that means that shield can achieve a maximum corrected protection value of 1400. That is equivalent to an average un modified tower shield. If the set the base value of that shield at 875 then we are talking about 1750 protection. A pretty large increase.My guess is they knew they were going this direction when this shield and others like it were added and wanted to keep balance them in this way so they could put nice offensive buffs on them, and balance them such that when the new +shield eff gear went in we wouldnt be wearing bucklers giving us 20+% avoidance..But that is just my guess. The ggow is pretty much going to become vendor fodder and most zerkers are going to bag their VG which is unfortunate because i really like the way it looks 8(Sikdom

Elanjar

11-17-2008, 02:35 PM

The question is, if they don't change the 5% block wording (vs 5% shield effectiveness), will +%block count towards the shield effectiveness cap or will it be a different modifier.and they really should add the RoK pvp gear to the blue servers. The pvp tower shield has 5DA on it and the same protection as righteous barrier of devotion. its effect is pretty good for tanking too. Pretty good item for non raiding zerkers.

Gisallo

11-18-2008, 02:17 AM

Well just had my buddy make me a Rilissian Targ Shield until I can get one of the ones from VoES or SoH. <shrug>Going to have to farm for the Mantle of the Jarsath to I guess to make up for the DA loss. Will be downloading ToS as soon as IGN sneds me my e-mail but I am NOT going to wait until I have collected X shards and all before I get more DA/crit stuff.

Triste-Lune

11-18-2008, 01:51 PM

why not just take the one of trak?

Gisallo

11-18-2008, 02:42 PM

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>why not just take the one of trak?</blockquote>Because I am not getting to Trak for sometime? We already have an MT and an OT in my guild. I am in the "bull pen" tank wise. Now when we go to do Trak next I'll be camped outside the zone, ready to run in if it drops...AFTER our primary MT and OT are kitted out, but one does have to prioritize and I need something to hold me over no?

victer

11-20-2008, 12:41 PM

removed<li>TSO Warrior AA Tree - Cry of the Warrior: Positional increase works however the "Force target to caster" does not work for the 8 second duration.</li>its been fixed thanks!

victer

01-22-2009, 05:17 PM

updated the list to reflect changes going live with Gu51if im missing anything or need to take something out let me know.

Obadiah

01-22-2009, 06:15 PM

Might want to put that stuff in Test feedback rather than here, since it's still subject to change.Insolence is already usable again in Offensive stance, or was earlier today. Mock too.I don't consider the 8% CA increase a problem at all. That alone should be a ~3% increase in my DPS while in Offensive Stance over live. Not huuuuuge, but it's an increase.Not sure if the recast will make it Live or not, but I don't see that as a big deal either. Today if I need to oh-crap-MT-died grab a mob while DW-ing and in O-stance, I already consider popping Adrenaline a higher priority than switching to my defensive stance. Can still shed O-stance, pop adrenaline, and grab the mob just as before, it will just be slightly longer - SLIGHTLY - before I get into D-stance.

victer

01-22-2009, 06:35 PM

Kurgan do your math again and make sure your only looking at your CA's... not any procs your doing.3% increase is about tripple what i expect.

Obadiah

01-22-2009, 06:47 PM

<cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kurgan do your math again and make sure your only looking at your CA's... not any procs your doing.3% increase is about tripple what i expect.</blockquote>Did have a few extra things included that shouldn't have been, but I still get 2.6% ... BUT ... that's flawed. I was forgetting that the 8% increase is only applying when you are Berserk. I've never really gauged how much of the time that's up since there's no way to measure, but yeah probably 1.3% or so tops. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />

Bremer

01-22-2009, 06:59 PM

I think Aerliak said something like the off stance will now just set taunt values to 0 instead of making them not usable. That should fix those off stance problems.The recast time seems to be supposed to stop you from going to def stance, spam all taunts and then going back in off stance. No idea why they are wasting so much time on making sure tank DPS sucks...I agree with the CA dmg bonus, with our weak CAs it's not worth much. A bonus to max crit would be cool.And the def stance... No idea where to start to say what sucks most. The changes are supposed to make tanks less dependent on other classes, but with the skill penalty on the def stance tanking orange mobs is almost impossible without a Warden's melee skill buff. Hitting the mob less often also means triggering less often Beserk and that means less time Adrenaline working. So tanking in the def stance lowers our survivability...And this entire AE/single target tank idea is completely half-baked. The 3 offensive fighters become (are) multi target tanks, the defensive single target. Raids are almost exclusiveley made of single target encounters, so the defensive tanks not only have better survivability, but on top of that they are made better at single target hate. They are hit less hard by the DPS penalties and get better taunts at the same time thus making any raid leader chosing a none single target as MT/OT an idiot. The "AE" tank has to work harder for his hate and pay more power for it (not including Adrenaline), the raid DDs have to do more detaunting and the healer have to heal the AE tank more. Awesome game design.The only job of the AE tanks is probably to fill raid spots of missing DDs and to tank the trash mobs on all the AE fights (so far I have seen one encounter with multi encounter adds, Xebnok, and a Warlock could tank these as well).

Bremer

01-22-2009, 07:21 PM

Forgot: Aggression now actually helps taunts hitting to mob. Awesome if you are a Guard and have 32 on your stance. Bad luck if you are a Beserkern, then you only have 16...

Syracus

01-27-2009, 08:01 AM

Medium PrioritySet Bonus VP (4 pieces) TSO (2 pieces) is slightly to low: Defstance skill penalty is - 20 , Sebonus ist only 15-16bonus should be raised to somewhat around 25 ~ 5 level skills

Obadiah

02-26-2009, 06:48 PM

Most of the High Priority things on your list have been addressed now, but if things stay as they are on Test they really need to increase our base taunt values and/or Aggression. Not just because we're The Agressor [sic], but because we have sooooooooo much less than everyone else.I'm fine with being the lowest ST hate tank .... but not by 25-35%! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9293feeb0183c67ea1ea8c52f0dbaf8c.gif" border="0" />And if we're AE tanks, we should have more vs. AE in comparison to Guards/Paladins instead of having essentially the same on 3-4 targets, which makes up the vast majority of AE encounters.It's sort of a complete flip-flop of how things are on Live where we have essentially the same on ST and they have a lot less on AE.

cr0wangel

02-28-2009, 03:49 PM

What is the "variance", anyone playing on test can tell?Berserker <ul><li>Reduced the variance of the Whirl and Barrage lines.</li></ul>

Obadiah

02-28-2009, 05:15 PM

<cite>cr0wangel wrote:</cite><blockquote>What is the "variance", anyone playing on test can tell?Berserker <ul><li>Reduced the variance of the Whirl and Barrage lines.</li></ul></blockquote>It has a tighter range fro top to bottom, but most of the change is the lowering of the top end.Intrusion goes from 1483-2624 on Live to 1116-1674 on Test. 32% overall reduction, 36% reduction to the top end.Bloodshower goes from 742-2063 on Live to 653-1214 on Test. 33% overall reduction, 70% reduction to the top end.You can read all about our woes on Test here:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=442287" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=442287</a>Frankly I wish more Berserkers would post there instead of calling for SK nerfs and embarrassing our class as a whole.If you think there's a huge gap between Berserkers and SKs on Live (and maybe there is at the end-game, but in early TSO raiding I don't see it on Live) ... it's going to get a crapload larger with what's on Test. Being made responsible for our own hate on Test, and we're supposed to be taunting to earn it, but with all Master 1s we'll be able to generate roughly as much threat from taunts as an SK with all Adept 1s.My Monk, with largely MC gear and an Apprentice 1 ST taunt and 120 AA, can generate more TPS via taunts against a single target than my Mythical Berserker with RoK & early TSO raid gear and 193 AA.Since they backed out the proc changes, our DPS in defensive stance drops substantially more than that of either Crusader as well. So we're certainly not going to make up any ground THAT way. Yet someone felt it was necessary to nerf two blue AoEs that never amount to a hill of beans as it is.Yet some of us remain fixated on how much DPS SK's can do on Live. /shrug

Bremer

02-28-2009, 08:28 PM

SKs should really be our least concern. The main problem is that these whole changes aim at making Beserkers only usefull tanks for the 2 or 3 raid encounters each expansion has where there are multi mobs (last expansion the books in front of Druushk and the trash adds from the Overking, this expansion the multi encounter in front of Mynzak and the trash adds from Xebnok) and for every other encounter they suck. This revamp round tries to ensure that Berserkers won't be doing good DPS when tanking and they'll generate less threat than any tank on all those single target raid mobs. While the first round ensured that they won't excel at defense. I was never a fan of this plate scout attitude some people have. These people will still be happy after the changes, they get even an awesome 5 % base damage boost to CAs that will increase their DPS by at least 50. But what about Beserkers who want to tank? Beserkers used to sacrifice some defense for more offensive. And now SOE just says "Offense is not your job, it's hate gain, bad luck" and take the offense away, don't give us more hate gain for the loss and leave the defense inferior. And they actually believe this is balance.

LygerT

03-01-2009, 05:14 AM

i consider the isse to be 2 halves, the other is as you say and i've been saying for a while now since all of our offensive properties continue to diminish and our defensive ones have stiff penalties or costs to get.

victer

03-03-2009, 02:28 PM

i dont know what else i can do to get the word out there.They may look over the issues but it doesnt mean they agree with them.Maybe we are supposed to do the least threat. Who knows. I have no idea what the hell they want to do with the class anymore.

Obadiah

03-03-2009, 02:59 PM

<cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>i dont know what else i can do to get the word out there.They may look over the issues but it doesnt mean they agree with them.</blockquote>I doubt they've looked over them. No Berserkers in Focused Feedback, perhaps, so no Berserker voices heard? I've shouted into the void of Test /Feedback myself. Look what it did ... it got us put FARTHER behind all the other Fighters. Like I said, Math isn't that hard.SK's can now generate 33% more ST and AE hate than Berserkers.Guardians and Paladins can now generate 100% more ST hate and equal AE hate on groups of up to 4. Monks can generate 2.5x the ST hate and over 30% more AE hate than Berserkers via taunts and have a lower melee multiplier penalty in Defensive Stance.That's just taunts and CAs with taunts. Now factor in buffs and DPS and having the worst resist rate for those taunts ... time to go watch Deliverance.On the bright side, a lot of people are complaining about being "Taunt Monkeys". We don't have to worry about that since our taunts are so impotent. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />

Warrlord

03-18-2009, 09:31 AM

For bug report.1. We have a skill <a class="fieldStat" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/items/item_profile.vm?itemId=206990">Aggressive Defense</a> (71 lvl) and proc on it that called Provoking CounterattackThis proc is a slashing damage. Not magic, not heat... Its melee. So why if we have a 100% melee crit (or more) this proc have a 0 crit in parse? With dirge in party we have a 7-8% crit damage from this proc. Hmm. May be it is a magic damage? Is it the truth? All of us are a few wizards. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />So its broken.2. Wall of forceMmm. Not bad ability. But. Lets go to Kultak. And what? We cant adsorb by ths ability his melee AoE. Damm. Why? Or Wall of force is broken, or his slashing AoE is a magic, like our Provoking Counterattack? Need fix it. Anything of that. But better Wall of force and Provoking Counterattack.

Danelin

03-19-2009, 01:56 AM

Since the revamp has been scrapped back to design phase, I'd like to see us do something similar to this list, but focused on issues from live. Examples of my personal issues -Taunts do so little threat as to be virtually meaningless. Values need to be adjusted.Defensive stance penalizes our ability to hold aggro far too much. The accuracy penalty needs to be removed from the stance as part of any move forward to better functionality.Our debuff AA line is kind of pointless, given that the values of our debuffs are so miniscule. Something should be done to adjust for this.While the final ability is quite nice, the wisdom line is in general rather worthless right now. A re-thinking may be in order.Unyielding will should trigger AFTER any other form of death prevention. It is incredibly lame to have TWO healers hit me with a death prevention at the same time and still die from an exploded heart. - on a related note, there should be a visible timer for the heart explosion so we can easily time click-berserk to prevent it, something that can be really hard to keep track of mid-messy pull that causes you to need it.Vision of madness needs to have a larger initial health return on it. It is basically only a soloing tool in its current state.

Obadiah

03-30-2009, 03:31 PM

Probably can remove the items related to the Fighter Changes now in anticipation of replacing them sometime in August when the next iteration of said changes hits Test. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />I would also add the following Low Priority bugs which have been sent into the /feedback /bug ether countless times but will probably take >8 months to fix like the last expansion's simple typo fixes: <div>Perseverance: Does not gray out when it's on the user.</div> <div> </div> <div>TSO Suffix Title: The Agressor. Should be The Aggressor. </div>

Obadiah

04-01-2009, 11:16 AM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Probably can remove the items related to the Fighter Changes now in anticipation of replacing them sometime in August when the next iteration of said changes hits Test. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />I would also add the following Low Priority bugs which have been sent into the /feedback /bug ether countless times but will probably take >8 months to fix like the last expansion's simple typo fixes: <div>Perseverance: Does not gray out when it's on the user.</div> <div> </div> <div>TSO Suffix Title: The Agressor. Should be The Aggressor. </div></blockquote>OK, nevermind on half of that.... Perseverance was fixed, although it wasn't mentioned in the patch notes.

victer

04-03-2009, 08:22 PM

Sorry for neglecting this post but I made a few changes taken from feedback from you guys.Kurgan your "Agressor" concern does not effect game play so I didn't add it to the list although I agree its annoying.Warrlord we need more testing of your Wall of Force concerns before its added it to the list.Danelin the majority of your concerns have already been in our list for some time. If you'd like it reworded I'll take suggestions.Here are the changes:<ul><li>Removed concerns from previous fighter revamp.</li></ul>Added:<ul><li>Aggressive Defense (auto taunt): Although this skill is listed as slashing damage, melee critical modifiers are not applied. It seems that spell critical modifiers are being used instead.</li></ul><ul><li>Defensive Stance: The negative melee skills reduce our hit rate to something unacceptable. Agro generation is drastically reduced by missing the target too often. We also require being able to hit the target to proc our berserk effect to properly use our main tanking ability Adrenaline.</li></ul> <ol><li>Remove the negative melee skills.</li></ol><ul><li>Aggressive Defense (auto taunt): Procs on 20% of incoming melee attacks. Other fighters have a stronger taunt procing 55% or 100% of the time on ANY incoming attack. That is a very huge difference.</li></ul> <ol><li>Change the auto-taunt proc rate to 50%+.</li><li>Change the auto-taunt proc to proc off ANY incoming attack.</li></ol><ul><li>Berserker Mythical Weapon: Enrage is heat damage when it should be some sort of melee damage.</li></ul><ol><li>Change it to some sort of melee damage.</li></ol>

LygerT

04-04-2009, 03:39 PM

i think a better idea would be to get rid of the hate proc portion on our mythical and give us a more in line stance proc, replace the line on the mythical with something else.

Chalysa

04-05-2009, 01:10 PM

<cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm going to try to make an easy to read list of problems with the current berserker design. Please keep your descriptive posts and your complaints to the other berserker threads. If you can think of something to add to this list I'll gladly add it. If you feel something is more / less important then I do, I'm also willing to take suggestions.<hr />Bug ReportThis will be a list of skills and effects used by the berserker that are currently not working as described in the description.<ul><li>Aggressive Defense (auto taunt): Although this skill is listed as slashing damage, melee critical modifiers are not applied. It seems that spell critical modifiers are being used instead.</li></ul><hr />High PriorityThese issues need attention a.s.a.p.<ul><li>Defensive Stance: The negative melee skills reduce our hit rate to something unacceptable. Agro generation is drastically reduced by missing the target too often. We also require being able to hit the target to proc our berserk effect to properly use our main tanking ability Adrenaline.</li></ul><hr />Medium PriorityThese issues will cause a lot of people to complain and should be looked into.<ul><li>Blood Regeneration and Perseverance: Effectiveness of the skill diminishes with a higher tier of opponent. Works well for solo/duel... Underpowered for heroic .... Almost useless in raids.</li></ul><ul><li>Aggressive Defence (auto taunt): Procs on 20% of incoming melee attacks. Other fighters have a stronger taunt procing 55% or 100% of the time on ANY incoming attack. That is a very huge difference.</li></ul> <hr />Low PriorityThese issues need eventual attention but we can live with them as long as you attend the top 2 prioritys and bugs.<ul><li>Berserker AA Tree:<ul><li>Debilitation Line: The bonuses offered are for increased debuffs on our combat arts. Our combat arts are low debuffers. We have debuffs such as 14 haste and 19 slash/crush/peirce. Our AA's increase these numbers by a low % on a low number... = very low gains per AA spent.</li><li>Berserk: Our "clicky" zerk is less potent then our berserk from our skills.</li></ul></li></ul><ul><li>Vision of Madness: Does not guarantee a death prevention. If my group gets one shotted by a strong AE and i have this skill on everyone should be dead except for me but this doesn't happen all the time.</li></ul><ul><li>Raid AE Encounters: There still is not enough AE encounters in raids that will make us use our AE abilities to their fullest. If we are meant to be AoE encounter tanks and are receiving more and more AoE skills please give us more opportunities to use them!</li></ul><ul><li>TSO Berserker Tree:<ul><li>Jeering Onslaught: The skill currently requires a target to cast yet is classified as a "blue" AE. No other blue AE in the game requires a target.</li><li>Wall of force: <ul><li>The UI does not show how many procs are left on the buff. </li><li>The duration is too short. Often the mob will not hit you hard enough during the 10 seconds for the proc to go off.</li></ul></li></ul></li><li>Berserker Mythical Weapon: Enrage is heat damage when it should be some sort of melee damage.</li></ul><hr />I will add/delete/edit this post as needed</blockquote>in regards to the defensive/offensive stance penalties, Stance Mastery is your friend. Also, you piercing,crushing,slashing skill's should be maxed if you want a good hit rate, otherwise, you WILL miss a at a high rate , so, if you are a zerker, and NOT using this AA line , and your melee attack skills are not maxxed for your level, then you are EPIC FAIL.I and several other zerkers that I have talked to in group's and raids use this ( Stance mastery, bottom of STA line warrior tree ) to get rid of all penalties associated with the stances. and most of us if not all, have our skill's maxed.While soloing I use Offensive stance, and when I am grouped I switch back and forth as needed. I alway's see a 95%-99% hit rate in defensive stance. so if you are seeing a high miss rate, then you are obviously NOT using stance mastery. suck it up and learn your tree.

Xalmat

04-05-2009, 02:34 PM

Stance Mastery means giving up points from either INT, STA, or STR tree, all of which contribute just as much, if not more, aggro than a piddly +20 slashing will. Which is something that can easily be made up by the right group combination anyway (if you're MTing on a raid, you have this group makeup).Besides, it's barely possible to get 90% hit rates in Offense stance, much less Defense stance.You have to keep in mind, the difference between Offense and Defense stance, as far as +Slashing goes, is well over 60 points. Even with Stance Mastery, we're still talking at least a 40 point difference.

LygerT

04-05-2009, 04:51 PM

you also have to keep in mind that even a 10% aggro reduction from changing from int line to wisdom can put you below your needed aggro range. some tanks like to use a sword and board, some like to tank in defensive and skirt the necessary aggro to be able to survive and others are required to be as maximized in hate as possible in order to maintain aggro.the deeper you get into raiding you will see the last example is the most true for endgame zerks and is why that point is prominently listed as one of our weaknesses.i have switched from int line to wisdom, it only lasted one raid night for me on my spec because the aggro loss was quite noticable and the difference switching to defensive stance(aggro wise) over the int spec was hardly noticable for me. it's just old getting shoehorned into the offensive role all the time, in some cases forced to dual wield to maintain aggro as a zerker which makes us squishy and gives us the appearance of being weak tanks comparably sometimes, all when it is not even our choice most of the time. some zerks do not see the problem and possibly never will but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

victer

04-05-2009, 08:37 PM

<cite>LtColWulff wrote:</cite><blockquote> ( Stance mastery, bottom of STA line warrior tree )</blockquote>Bottom of sta line is pwr reducer. You are thinking of the bottom of wis line.<cite>LtColWulff wrote:</cite><blockquote>suck it up and learn your tree.</blockquote>QFEBy the way... please try and give back only constructive feedback or your future posts will be ignored by myself and the rest of the respectable players. There is no need to try and make fun of the people trying to help our class.

Necodem

04-05-2009, 09:05 PM

<cite>LtColWulff wrote:</cite><blockquote>in regards to the defensive/offensive stance penalties, Stance Mastery is your friend. Also, you piercing,crushing,slashing skill's should be maxed if you want a good hit rate, otherwise, you WILL miss a at a high rate , so, if you are a zerker, and NOT using this AA line , and your melee attack skills are not maxxed for your level, then you are EPIC FAIL.I and several other zerkers that I have talked to in group's and raids use this ( Stance mastery, bottom of STA line warrior tree ) to get rid of all penalties associated with the stances. and most of us if not all, have our skill's maxed.While soloing I use Offensive stance, and when I am grouped I switch back and forth as needed. I alway's see a 95%-99% hit rate in defensive stance. so if you are seeing a high miss rate, then you are obviously NOT using stance mastery. suck it up and learn your tree.</blockquote>Epic lols.

Obadiah

04-06-2009, 06:47 PM

<cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kurgan your "Agressor" concern does not effect game play so I didn't add it to the list although I agree its annoying.</blockquote>That's OK, they stealth-fixed that too apparently. Woot. Your edited post currently says it all very well, IMO.

Elanjar

04-08-2009, 05:56 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>i think a better idea would be to get rid of the hate proc portion on our mythical and give us a more in line stance proc, replace the line on the mythical with something else.</blockquote>I'm confused? what do you mean by this. are you talking about the 25% of damage received proc? I kinda find that useful, although I'm not sure what you mean by a stance proc so perhaps what you're proposing is more useful.

victer

04-09-2009, 11:01 AM

i dont think we need to adjust the mythical at all other then changing the heat proc into a melee damage proc because heat is just stupid to have as a warrior... since when do we use spell type effects? Our mythical is one of the better looking tank weapons and we shouldnt expect for them to make it all that much better.What im scared of tho is that next tier when we are level 90 and this weapon is obsolete we will have alot less tools to make us a proper AOE tank. Especially the 5 hate positions on gibe. The 100% aoe attack all the time i could live without during raids because we only ever really needed the 30 secs we got from open wounds for raiding... heroic instances will be not as fun tho. Thats the problem i see with the weapon is that it is the real reason why we are even capable of being called an "aoe tank"... without it we are missing alot of the biggest tools that make us a viable aoe tank.At level 90 we'll be a [Removed for Content] gaurdian that turns into 4 mob maximum aoe tank for 30 seconds every 2.5 minutes. More then 4 mobs attacking your party? lets hope you gibe them before they generate more then 2k hate on whatever they are attacking. I'm really gonna miss those 5 positions at lvl 90.

Xalmat

04-09-2009, 12:20 PM

You'll still be able to swap in your mythical just long enough to Gibe, then switch back to whatever other weapon you are using at the time. But yes I agree, when the level cap is increased things are going to look pretty bleak again for those with Mythical.

Elanjar

04-13-2009, 01:20 PM

I could honestly see them not raising the level cap again, and just ninja nerfing classes each xpac so that they have to reprogress.BUT if they do raise the level cap to 90, then I would expect to see some sort of raid questline to "upgrade" your mythical to level 90 with an appropriate damage rating and perhaps another or enhanced/different effects.

fbi

04-14-2009, 07:29 AM

Ah ... no way to segue to this, but a minor bug since LU51:Guarded Vehemance needs to be recast every time you zone.I've /bugged it in game.

LygerT

05-07-2009, 09:29 PM

things i would like to see next expansion:vision of madness and unyieldwing will- double the heal amounts and make the recast 3 minutesgut roar- 5 hit stoneskinjuggernaut- increases crit amount by 100%turmoil- proc damage increased by 75%open wounds- flurries all enemies in surrounding area(ie triple attack)mitigation boost from wisdom tree upped to 2k at 5 pointsmore melee attack proc gear usable by warriorsremove hate amount on the mythical and add a proc that makes caster immune to all control effects that procs 5 times per minute and has a 55.9 second durationthat is all.

skycruise

05-08-2009, 02:29 PM

rofl...EDIT : I will *IF* you stay here.

LygerT

05-08-2009, 07:15 PM

omg, go back to your SK forum!/cry

victer

05-20-2009, 12:24 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>things i would like to see next expansion:vision of madness and unyieldwing will- double the heal amounts and make the recast 3 minutesi likeygut roar- 5 hit stoneskini likeyjuggernaut- increases crit amount by 100%no real needturmoil- proc damage increased by 75%damage could possibly use some help but 75% may be a bit much. More procs would be nice... or a faster recast.open wounds- flurries all enemies in surrounding area(ie triple attack)neat idea but if its 100% flurry for 30 secs it might be a bit OP. How about adding 10-25% crit bonus instead.mitigation boost from wisdom tree upped to 2k at 5 pointsstill dont see myself putting point in this line unless i could find 25% melee crit/DA somewhere else real easy. Or the 12% reuse. I really only see MT zerkers and gaurds useing 2k more mitmore melee attack proc gear usable by warriorsi likey... this is a must if we are ever to compete with SK dammage.remove hate amount on the mythical and add a proc that makes caster immune to all control effects that procs 5 times per minute and has a 55.9 second durationoverpowered much? 55.9 second? really?that is all.</blockquote>

Elanjar

05-20-2009, 05:01 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>things i would like to see next expansion:vision of madness and unyieldwing will- double the heal amounts and make the recast 3 minutesgut roar- 5 hit stoneskinI vote for 5 hit reflect all incoming damagejuggernaut- increases crit amount by 100%har ahrturmoil- proc damage increased by 75%how bout a 1min duration temp buff unlimited procsopen wounds- flurries all enemies in surrounding area(ie triple attack)leave as is but add "if myth equipped applies 100% AoE to off hand"mitigation boost from wisdom tree upped to 2k at 5 pointsand belly smash debuff mit by 5k, remove knockdown requirementmore melee attack proc gear usable by warriorslol yesremove hate amount on the mythical and add a proc that makes caster immune to all control effects that procs 5 times per minute and has a 55.9 second durationlolthat is all.</blockquote>that was a good laugh haha

LygerT

05-20-2009, 05:04 PM

lol, and i meant to say melee crit bonus, <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />oh yes and add in a 1 minute evac and 20 second FD.

Hardkatt

06-08-2009, 03:17 PM

The AA Unstoppable Will that grants 5% melee crit bonus does not actually raise our melee or combat art damage. I have 100% melee crit before juggernaut is cast, but testing with 5 AA's in Unstoppable Will and without it shows my melee hits and combat arts unchanged by the supposed 5% Melee Crit Bonus. Anyone else experiencing this?

Nero

07-09-2009, 10:44 AM

What if Berserker can use 2hand weapon in one hand?That is to say, dual wield of 2hand weapons, or a 2hand weapon and a shield.And what if Berserker has an ability about hate like Moderate of Guardian?

Xalmat

07-23-2009, 03:29 PM

<cite>Hardkatt wrote:</cite><blockquote>The AA Unstoppable Will that grants 5% melee crit bonus does not actually raise our melee or combat art damage. I have 100% melee crit before juggernaut is cast, but testing with 5 AA's in Unstoppable Will and without it shows my melee hits and combat arts unchanged by the supposed 5% Melee Crit Bonus. Anyone else experiencing this?</blockquote>I'll re-test this later today.*edit* Tested, and it's working properly. Here's my results with auto-attack only, and with only the O stance proc Furious Assault:Weapon damage: 280-1588 non-crit. 1.33 worn crit mod before Juggernaut.Theoretical max hit: 2112 (1588 x 1.33)Actual parsed max hit: 2105Furious Assault damage: 382-637Theoretical max hit: 847 (637 x 1.33)Actual parsed max hit: 857With juggernaut, crit mod 1.38Theoretical max hit: 2191 (1588 x 1.38)Actual parsed max hit: 2183Furious Assault damage (with Juggernaut going): 447-745Theoretical max hit (with juggernaut going): 1028 (745 x 1.38)Actual parsed max hit: 1076I can't explain why the O stance is hitting slightly harder than the theoretical max (and I checked all my gear and procs), but I'm not gonna complain!Remember that crit mods only increase the likelihood of hitting for more than Max + 1, and only increase the top end damage of crits by a little bit.

Morgue

07-23-2009, 08:09 PM

I wonder if everyone understands how the crit mods work. simple math follows....base crit mod is 30% or 1.30 which means when you crit the base bonus dmg is 30% of normal damage. ex. 100 dmg normal hit would become 130 dmg on a crit.now as far as crit mods. I am sure everyone has noticed items that increase "crit bonus dmg" and a number ex. being Zerker TSO bracer which does + 2 melee crit bonus. 2 does mean 2%. If you examine your skill with only the TSO bracer on and no AA to increase crit damage it would read 1.32 which translates to bonus 32% damage on criticals. Thus 100 dmg hit would hit for 132 dmg. I only post this because I am sure some zerkers reading the posts dont understand how bonus crit damage is calculated. I should have probably posted this as a stand alone. -sam

Xalmat

07-23-2009, 08:50 PM

<cite>Samous@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wonder if everyone understands how the crit mods work. </blockquote>I sometimes suspect most people don't.But I went ahead and tested Juggernaut's crit bonus anyway, just to make absolutely sure.Now on the other hand it's possible there's a stacking issue with Juggernaut and some other buff we don't know about...but if that's the case then it hasn't been publically reported as far as I know.

Hardkatt

07-28-2009, 04:56 AM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can't explain why the O stance is hitting slightly harder than the theoretical max (and I checked all my gear and procs), but I'm not gonna complain!Remember that crit mods only increase the likelihood of hitting for more than Max + 1, and only increase the top end damage of crits by a little bit.</blockquote>Thanks Xalmat for the response. I believe I can find better use of 5 aa's then that. Maybe if the mod was 50% with 5 aa's, but I can always dream. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />

Hardkatt

03-24-2010, 04:14 AM

Reroll Guardian

tojejedno

03-24-2010, 06:20 AM

This thread looks dead, but, well.With recent SF changes.Juggernat: One of our calssdefining abilities. Now everyone can easily get to 100% crit, that is enough.Suggestion: Change it to crit bonusAnd one ol' song:Open wounds: Mythical is now solo/group.Suggestion: Make 100%+ AE attack means something usefull (It could also theoretically makes agi line usefull for zerks). IE for every 25% "can double attack one more target". So 200% with 100 DA means 100% DA AE.Or change OW completely ie to some AE proc like rampage + can proc on multiple targets.

altuslum

03-24-2010, 09:20 AM

<div><div>My bias is towards raiding, it is what I do with most of my time in EQ2. Except for the proposed changed to Insolent Cry I've tried to stay inside of stuff I know exist in EQ2 to avoid new mechanics. No real order other than I tried to group them by category.<hr />SF AA Issues1. Battle Frenzy (endline)Problem: Lacks usefulness in raiding situations. OT'ing the Gynok adds this will provide about a 25% damage reduction.Proposed Change: Add a 1% power regeneration to each hit, thus even if mobs are eating through the heal berserkers are still gaining a benefit.2. Insolent CryProblem: This buff increases the damage and hate component, both are pretty irrelevant given that Insolent also has a 5 hate position increase. Maybe it would have worked in T8 but in T9 the myth buff can be gained through heroic content, essentially making so every berserker can/will have the 5 hate position increase.Proposed Change: 3% block per rank while wielding a weapon in the offhand (dual wielding). Allow it to act as a shield and as a result be buffed by +block and trigger other effects that depend on a shield.3. Loss of Adrenaline (after affect of Adrenaline)Problem: No other class stifles a class feature while using another class feature. Adrenaline is already the most expensive ability in game besides Mana Burn and Mana Ward, it doesn't need the additional cost. Berserkers can spend 48 AA on rage related things, the cost seems to high to invalidate those AA.EoF: Berserker TreeEnhance: Berserk Rage = 5Enhance: War Cry = 3Enhance: Juggernaut = 4Berserk = 1Enhance: Unyielding Will = 5Enhance: Vision of Madness = 5TSO: Shadows TreeUnstoppable Will = 5Adrenaline Rush = 5SF: Berserker TreeWard of Rage = 5Total Madness = 5Shot of Adrenaline = 5On top of all that is the TSO 2-piece raid bonus and a red adornment.Proposed Change #1: Allow Rank 5 of Shot of Adrenaline to remove the Loss of Adrenaline penalty.orProposed Change #2: Change Loss of Adrenaline to be a -30 attack speed and -30 DPS to cancel the buff from raging.Problem #2: Interrupts the berserker every three seconds for 30 seconds.Proposed Change #1: Remove the interrupt.orProposed Change #2: Document the interrupt in the spell's description.4. Total MadnessProblem: Vision of Madness does not prevent death, the initial heal is too small. Thus, even a longer HoT will still result in a dead berserker while raiding.Proposed Change: Instead of adding more ticks to the HoT, allow the additional five ticks to be front loaded. Thus, the first tick with be the the value of six ticks.5. Ward of RageProblem: A 300 point ward is near useless in raiding, this AA does not scale well between content.Proposed Change: Proc two triggers of 3% incoming damage reduction per rank. Thus, at rank 5 it would proc two triggers of 15% incoming damage reduction. This will allow the AA to scale between content.TSO AA, Shadows Tree Issues6. Wall of Force (endline)Problem #1: 10 seconds isn't long enough to get hit twice for 30%+ damage. It is very easy to miss an AE if the timing is just a little off.Proposed Change #1: Increase the duration to 15 seconds.Problem #2: Only blocks physical damage.Proposed Change #2: Allow it to block all types of damage.EoF AA, Berserker Tree Issues7. Debilitation lineProblem: The whole EoF tree is underwhelming, but the Debilitation line is by far the worst of the tree. The debuffs add very little if anything, especially in a raid.Proposed Change: Add a 3% damage increase to each rank of:Enhance: MaulEnhance: Body CheckEnhance: MutilateEnhance: Head CrushEnhance: DemolishThis will also go a long way to close the gap in the damage value of berserker CAs compared to other fighters.8. Enhance: Unyielding WillProblem: Guardians can spend 5 AA to boost this ability to avoid the Death's Door and increase the amount of the heal. We can spend 5 AA and have to time Berserk (rage clicky) to avoid death without any additional health.Proposed Change: If we have this AA it should go back to the 'bugged' version, that it removes the Death's Door penalty. Leave it as a lower heal amount since the AA is accessible early in progression and we have Vision of Madness we can stack on top of it.9. Perseverance (endline)Problem: The heal does not scale through play styles, it is near worthless in a raiding situation.Proposed Change: Proc two stoneskins.CA Issues10. Adrenaline (Level 80 ancient CA)Problem: The text is wrong. Gynok's death touch for example will bypass Adrenaline.Proposed Change #1: Fix Adrenaline so that it works as described.orProposed Change #2: Describe Adrenaline as it works.11. Aggressive DefenseProblem: Only triggers off of melee attacks, which reduces it effectiveness against caster mobs.Proposed Change: Allow it to trigger off of any attack.12. Blood RageProblem: The heal is too small to be viable in raid content.Proposed Change: Change the heal to be based on the hit that triggers it. 50% of the damage taken with a floor value of the current value (around 300 HP before AA) and a ceiling of 1000 HP (around 5% of the berserker's health). I originally said just had a percentage, but since this spell upgrades each tier there needs to be a value instead of a moving scale.So on an incoming hit there would be a 33% chance the berserker would heal for 50% of the incoming damage or 1000 HP, whichever is less. Not to be lower than 300 HP. The lower limit and upper limit would still be effected by AA.13. BloodlustProblem: Used to buff both fighters and scouts.Proposed Change: Add AGI to the buff.14. Open Wounds (DoF ancient CA)Problem: Sometimes the attack speed is nice, but not often. Since AE A-A targets is capped at 4, the buff becomes pretty obsolete with the mythical buff.Proposed Change: Add a melee weapon reach increase to the buff similar to what swashbucklers get in their AA, Reach. This will add a little more versatility to the buff and while pulling mobs or when an add engages allows berserkers to hit the mob without hitting a CA if the buff is up.Red Adornments15. Focus: Destructive Rage VIProblem: DPS is easy to max, why would any raiding berserker want to add 5 more DPS to the raid.Proposed Change: Make the focus like it has been on VP and TSO legs, +Power Regen for the raid.16. Focus: Jeering OnslaughtProblem: Jeering Onslaught is a snap aggro tool (3 hate positions), not a DPS ability.Proposed Change: Add one hate position to Jeering Onslaught.17. Focus: BerserkProblem: Provides less +skills than the TSO two set bonus by about half.Proposed Change: Make it at least +21 (same as a greater adornment).</div></div>