Guardians in TSO [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Undorett

10-30-2008, 05:10 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yea, so maybe buckler line won't be a viable raid tank spec now (without mythic). I might switch to something like str/agi/int if this is the case.How are the %parry adornments, wrathbringer barbute and shoulders, soulfire gladius looking? And anything else with uncontested avoid like the re2 cloak, bracelet/ring?Basically... I've been working hard to get 70% avoid self buffed while maintaining good threat control. Trying to get a feel for how much I'm going to suck the day tso launches.</blockquote>wrathbringer barbute is basically + shield effectiveness instead of + block, so if your shield did 20% before and you had barbute you were at 25%, you are now at 21%. Only + shield block was changed (sotgd, trak shield, soulfire, warthbringer helm, +1 shield adorn), the other forms of uncontested avoidance still remain. STA 4 is now not avoidance at all, but just about the most useless skill you can think of by increasing the riposte by less than the Yha-lei shock troop bracers with 8 points in the skill. The fighter branch endline is basically a rescue skill with + position, as is the endline for the warrior branch but the warrior branch has an 8 second "must target warrior" (like Peel for monks) attached to it. Endline for the guard tree is a personal Jcap with some dodge attached to it as well as a high hitting CA on a 45s timer.As Taharn also said, we lost 15% DA from STA3 with 8pts in it. About 75% of the heroic zones are group encounters, us being the weakest plate tank with aoe agro that isnt the greatest. SKs got a very significant boost, pallys are about where they were before, zerkers got an unneeded nerf basically attached to the STA line nerf as well as a few of their abilities being...well lets call it "fixed". Largest problems for guardians with the expansion thus far are:A significant disadvantage in heroic tanking due to aoe encounters all over the place.Fighter LineRiposte Mastery - increases chance to riposte after a successful parry by 2, 5 ranks (I will say it again very shortly, riposte damage is worthless, it hits for a very very minimal amount of damage, not worth even considering by any fighter)Battle Hardening - with 5 points it reduces physical damage by about 250 (this should be on a % base to both scale for plate / leather armor as well as solo/heroic/raid mobs. Solo mobs are going to hit you for a minimal amount making this ability very nice, but a raid mob is going to hit hard enough to not even notice this protection on you...)Warrior BranchSaving Grace - gives an additional hate position for each point spent (not needed by either warrior in solo/heroic/raid at any time)Aggressive Nature - adds effect to taunt on a successful block with 5 ranks to our taunt proc buff (problem here is block was nerfed, this needs to be changed to a successful avoid/dodge/parry/block)Countering Strike - increases riposte damage 2% 5 ranks (seriously, riposte damage is so minor this makes no difference what so ever, it is one of the worst aa choises we can make, this needs to be changed to a + % damage absorption, crusaders got + shield effectiveness here, we are not supposed to be as good with a shield so we need to mitigate better and + mitigation is worthless for anyone with half decent gear due to the poor mitigation curve)Guardian BranchHateful Assult - improves taunting assualt line (basically this is a minor thing but we were pushing for this to speed the casting of the skill up, as it is now its not worth casting most of the time due to the time it takes to cast)Guardian's Will - with 5 points you remove the penalties with the hunker down line and a minor increase in the buff itself (copy and paste from the wisdom line, improving one of our worst "save" moves, again it is more of a minor thing but not many guardians will find this worth taking) This has apparently been changed since I last checked the ability (just don't need it often in heroic encounters and I have not had the chance to test a raid yet <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It now adds shield effectiveness to the skill instead of removing the penalties.Missing from the guardian line - every other class had their raidwide buff improved, ours wasnt touched.Sentinel Strike - not really up to par with the other endline abilities of the tanks, all it really is, is a nice high damage attack on a horrible 45s timer that doesnt line up with any of our other skillsSTA4 is useless (fact, not opinion <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> )With some of the nicer dps AA for dps classes and without the STA line hate will feel like a game of ping pong for premythical guardians. I suggest keeping it and swaping shields throughout each fight.

Rahatmattata

10-30-2008, 05:35 PM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Saving Grace - gives an additional hate position for each point spent (not needed by either warrior in solo/heroic/raid at any time)I could see this having some use if there are a lot of hate shuffles in TSO.With some of the nicer dps AA for dps classes and without the STA line hate will feel like a game of ping pong for premythical guardians. I suggest keeping it and swaping shields throughout each fight.It looks like TSO will be balanced around having the mythic epic. As a raid tank sans mythic, the stamina line is looking like absolute garbage and only good for lite grouping and soloing. However, it should be easier to get the mythical with the HP boost and gear like Taharn described.From what I've seen so far (here and eq2 flames) I'm not excited. I'm seeing a substantial nerf to survivability (although other fighters will feel this as well), we will be even worse off in heroic content (pallies and zerkers are already better for heroic tanking), a small boost to soloing... at least threat control looks ok... My biggest problem is our guild is basically completely rebuilt and we are just now getting back into T2. When the expansion hits I can see us failing on T2 content until we earn more AAs and get TSO heroic loot to get back to where we already are. All I can say is bleh, not looking forward to TSO.</blockquote>

Undorett

10-30-2008, 05:44 PM

The hate shuffles are 1 or 2 dps spiking above you much more often, not 8 people suddenly jumping above you. Rescue already is 3 positions, you don't need more in almost every situation. If you do, you have reinforcement, fighter endline, and warrior endline all with + position. The mage/scout endlines are a - position.Threat control is weaker than it is on live, and if you drop the STA line it will be even worse. Getting agro is not a problem, holding it can be.

Rahatmattata

10-30-2008, 05:46 PM

Yea, I was thinking about encounters like in SoH... the one that always drops the warrior buckler... mobs that drop the tank to the bottom of the hate list so you have 23 positions to climb.But I'd guess there probably won't be much of that in TSO.

Undorett

10-30-2008, 05:49 PM

there are plenty of memwipes, guess we always have a brawler and two plate tanks all capeable of tanking on every raid, we just rotate through almost like what is required to for you to beat maestro

schizolic

10-31-2008, 12:01 AM

shield requirement has been removed from sta line, cant wait to see what gets put on the mythic now.

Kikena

10-31-2008, 12:16 AM

This DPS nerf is BS. We go through the trouble of literally working for items in game, a game thousands pay for and the class is set to be un-balanced again.GL with the expansion.

LygerT

10-31-2008, 01:43 AM

<cite>Taharn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nerfed 15% double attack on sta line...Nerfed the 4th Sta line to not make it uncontested avoidanceNerfed Shield block <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> (anything with + block insn't uncontested)We get 3 new hate increasing abilities and reuse on rescue and reinforcement has been loweredOne of the hate increasing abilities gives hate over time, extra taunt per block, the other are nice for snap agro but horrible for holding agro.In TSO raid gear + bolster and necro buff I'm at 31k hp.They changed the 4th ability in Str line to give you a taunt % modifier (stuipid imo)</blockquote>you would think the offensive warrior would have a hard time swallowing that taunts are now a part of aggro generation as much as DPS is but alas no, it is easily realized the emphasis put on taunts and everything that has a hate generation attachment.you will have to rethink how you play and what you look at for managing aggro now.

Xalmat

10-31-2008, 01:56 AM

Tanking is about hate generation, plain and simple. If you aren't generating enough hate to hold aggro, you aren't tanking. So with that in mind, who cares what your DPS is as long as you're holding aggro?

Rahatmattata

10-31-2008, 03:43 AM

<cite>schizolic wrote:</cite><blockquote>shield requirement has been removed from sta line, cant wait to see what gets put on the mythic now.</blockquote>Wow, first time I've heard this.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

10-31-2008, 10:27 AM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanking is about hate generation, plain and simple. If you aren't generating enough hate to hold aggro, you aren't tanking. So with that in mind, who cares what your DPS is as long as you're holding aggro?</blockquote> Tanking is also "about" withstanding massive damage as well as dealing respectable damage to the enemy along with 23 others. You think that 5-foot long sword is just for show? Tell you what, test your tanking theory. Next raid you're on, wear all mastercrafted stuff and don't swing your weapon or do any damage at all. Just throw taunts the whole time, see how long that lasts.

Undorett

10-31-2008, 10:48 AM

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanking is about hate generation, plain and simple. If you aren't generating enough hate to hold aggro, you aren't tanking. So with that in mind, who cares what your DPS is as long as you're holding aggro?</blockquote>Tanking is also "about" withstanding massive damage as well as dealing respectable damage to the enemy along with 23 others. You think that 5-foot long sword is just for show? Tell you what, test your tanking theory. Next raid you're on, wear all mastercrafted stuff and don't swing your weapon or do any damage at all. Just throw taunts the whole time, see how long that lasts. </blockquote>Xalmat's comment was about the comment made earlier in the post regarding the taunt modifier on the STR4 line being a stupid change. It had nothing to do with the other aspects of tanking, of which I am positive (s)he is fully aware.Rahatmattata - check out the zerker thread (on the zerker board) regarding what is in store for them in TSO. CK posted it.

surepaw

10-31-2008, 10:55 AM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanking is about hate generation, plain and simple. If you aren't generating enough hate to hold aggro, you aren't tanking. So with that in mind, who cares what your DPS is as long as you're holding aggro?</blockquote>I have to agree with this post. I can understand why DPS is important in keeping agg, but if the devs have added some nice snap aggro AA's to accomidate the lack of DPS, then I do not see the problem here, short of a pride thing with the parse.I do not know how well the new aggro lines will do, we will see, so I will hold judgment on them till I see them in action. It seems tho that it may be more of a combined effort for the tank to keep agg. I am not against this as it is an MMOG after all. The case may be changed to a more group focused event where all the classes have to work together better, and I am fine with that. The DPS classes may have to focus more on agg control then who gets the top parse.But if the snap agg is actually good, then things will work smooth, will little change except that the Guardian has less DPS. He will be more in line with the pally.The tank classes, short of the Guardian, have been complaining from day one that the tank classes are far from equal, and I for one have to agree. The Guardian has been king of the tank hill for the duration of the game. When they finally attempt to fix it all we have is complainers because they may not be one of the top parsers. give me a break.If in fact the new agg controls do not work well after we learn how to use them, then I can see the problem here with lack of DPS, but until then, I reserve judgement. But jumping to a quick conclusion is not the way to handle this.Working as a team and getting the job done is more important to me then being top dog. But I can also see where certain people need their ego stroked and use the game for just that purpose.I may be wrong here, but iot is just my 2cpI have put my fire proof suit on, so flame away, as I know many will.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

10-31-2008, 11:29 AM

<cite>surepaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanking is about hate generation, plain and simple. If you aren't generating enough hate to hold aggro, you aren't tanking. So with that in mind, who cares what your DPS is as long as you're holding aggro?</blockquote>I have to agree with this post. I can understand why DPS is important in keeping agg, but if the devs have added some nice snap aggro AA's to accomidate the lack of DPS, then I do not see the problem here, short of a pride thing with the parse.I do not know how well the new aggro lines will do, we will see, so I will hold judgment on them till I see them in action. It seems tho that it may be more of a combined effort for the tank to keep agg. I am not against this as it is an MMOG after all. The case may be changed to a more group focused event where all the classes have to work together better, and I am fine with that. The DPS classes may have to focus more on agg control then who gets the top parse.But if the snap agg is actually good, then things will work smooth, will little change except that the Guardian has less DPS. He will be more in line with the pally.The tank classes, short of the Guardian, have been complaining from day one that the tank classes are far from equal, and I for one have to agree. The Guardian has been king of the tank hill for the duration of the game. When they finally attempt to fix it all we have is complainers because they may not be one of the top parsers. give me a break.If in fact the new agg controls do not work well after we learn how to use them, then I can see the problem here with lack of DPS, but until then, I reserve judgement. But jumping to a quick conclusion is not the way to handle this.Working as a team and getting the job done is more important to me then being top dog. But I can also see where certain people need their ego stroked and use the game for just that purpose.I may be wrong here, but iot is just my 2cpI have put my fire proof suit on, so flame away, as I know many will.</blockquote>It has zero to do with ego or being top dog on the dps, nobody is even hinting that fighter dps should be top of the parse or anywhere close. But we are fighters ffs, and part of fighting is doing decent, respectable damage to the enemy. I don't want to become nothing but a taunt dispenser. If weapon dps is not a key part of the guardian equation then why do we have the widest selection of weaponry in the game?And btw weapon and CA damage during a fight (aka DPS) are our primary means of sustained hate generation outside of reactive hate buffs. "Snap" aggro tools are fine, but they are generally used to regain aggro once it's lost. Sustained hate is required to control chaos during raid encounters. If we are losing dps then where is the sustained hate going to come from?

Undorett

10-31-2008, 11:39 AM

<cite>surepaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanking is about hate generation, plain and simple. If you aren't generating enough hate to hold aggro, you aren't tanking. So with that in mind, who cares what your DPS is as long as you're holding aggro?</blockquote>I have to agree with this post. I can understand why DPS is important in keeping agg, but if the devs have added some nice snap aggro AA's to accomidate the lack of DPS, then I do not see the problem here, short of a pride thing with the parse.I do not know how well the new aggro lines will do, we will see, so I will hold judgment on them till I see them in action. It seems tho that it may be more of a combined effort for the tank to keep agg. I am not against this as it is an MMOG after all. The case may be changed to a more group focused event where all the classes have to work together better, and I am fine with that. The DPS classes may have to focus more on agg control then who gets the top parse.But if the snap agg is actually good, then things will work smooth, will little change except that the Guardian has less DPS. He will be more in line with the pally.The tank classes, short of the Guardian, have been complaining from day one that the tank classes are far from equal, and I for one have to agree. The Guardian has been king of the tank hill for the duration of the game. When they finally attempt to fix it all we have is complainers because they may not be one of the top parsers. give me a break.If in fact the new agg controls do not work well after we learn how to use them, then I can see the problem here with lack of DPS, but until then, I reserve judgement. But jumping to a quick conclusion is not the way to handle this.Working as a team and getting the job done is more important to me then being top dog. But I can also see where certain people need their ego stroked and use the game for just that purpose.I may be wrong here, but iot is just my 2cpI have put my fire proof suit on, so flame away, as I know many will.</blockquote>You just compared our agro generation to that of a pally? Again, snap agro is not the problem, but the assumed loss of more DA now that the sta line shield requirements are dropped will drop our agro over time a considerable amount. Many tanks do not care about their dps, however it has up until now been the only effective way of increasing your agro generation. DPS has not scaled liniarly like taunts have, when the DPS classes such as yourself increase exponentially expansion after expansion, tank classes have needed to do the same to maintain hate.

Kreagan De'Unerro

10-31-2008, 11:43 AM

Apparently they are adding hate generationg to majority of our combat arts? I think I have read this somewhere, can someone clarify?The snap aggro abilities are nice with the reduced casting times on Reinforcement.Increasing our survivability even further then what it is now still makes us the top Raid tank in the game.Hate generation was not always about a Tanks DPS, more so Zerker then us before KoS. Core game raiding and DoF where horrible for guard dps, until KoS came along and we learned STA line was good idea to use, and still most of us used tower shield over buckler spec for survivability in KoS.If I am generating as much hate as if I was still dps'n as I am now(hitting 5k on most raid trash if I try hard enough), then I could care less about my dps. It is all about maintaining agro, plain and simple. It doesn't matter how it is done, just that you are getting it done.

surepaw

10-31-2008, 12:10 PM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>surepaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanking is about hate generation, plain and simple. If you aren't generating enough hate to hold aggro, you aren't tanking. So with that in mind, who cares what your DPS is as long as you're holding aggro?</blockquote>I have to agree with this post. I can understand why DPS is important in keeping agg, but if the devs have added some nice snap aggro AA's to accomidate the lack of DPS, then I do not see the problem here, short of a pride thing with the parse.I do not know how well the new aggro lines will do, we will see, so I will hold judgment on them till I see them in action. It seems tho that it may be more of a combined effort for the tank to keep agg. I am not against this as it is an MMOG after all. The case may be changed to a more group focused event where all the classes have to work together better, and I am fine with that. The DPS classes may have to focus more on agg control then who gets the top parse.But if the snap agg is actually good, then things will work smooth, will little change except that the Guardian has less DPS. He will be more in line with the pally.The tank classes, short of the Guardian, have been complaining from day one that the tank classes are far from equal, and I for one have to agree. The Guardian has been king of the tank hill for the duration of the game. When they finally attempt to fix it all we have is complainers because they may not be one of the top parsers. give me a break.If in fact the new agg controls do not work well after we learn how to use them, then I can see the problem here with lack of DPS, but until then, I reserve judgement. But jumping to a quick conclusion is not the way to handle this.Working as a team and getting the job done is more important to me then being top dog. But I can also see where certain people need their ego stroked and use the game for just that purpose.I may be wrong here, but iot is just my 2cpI have put my fire proof suit on, so flame away, as I know many will.</blockquote>You just compared our agro generation to that of a pally? Again, snap agro is not the problem, but the assumed loss of more DA now that the sta line shield requirements are dropped will drop our agro over time a considerable amount. Many tanks do not care about their dps, however it has up until now been the only effective way of increasing your agro generation. DPS has not scaled liniarly like taunts have, when the DPS classes such as yourself increase exponentially expansion after expansion, tank classes have needed to do the same to maintain hate.</blockquote>No, I was not comparing Guadians to Pally's, just a referance. I may have phrased it wrong and I appologize. I am also not saying that all tanks care about how much DPS they put out, some do, just like some players of any other class. As a swashy I have run into many that do, and many that do not. How many people do you run into in groups that post parses that every time they are in the top slot or second they post it, but if they are in the middle or below they do not. I have run into a few guardians like this, just like I have run into other classes like that as well. I never post parses unless asked by someone to do so, I can look at my parse just fine without posting it.Again, depending on what we see I will hold my judgement, but to have a knee jerk reaction everytime someone says they are lowering your DPS is not the way to look at this. If they are able to balance things in a consistant way, I am not against it, that is what I am saying.I do have a guardian on another account of mine, so I can relate, as I also have a pally. I just always post with my swashy account.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

10-31-2008, 12:46 PM

Well all I can say is grats fighters that aren't tanking. You now have even less reason to be on raids/groups than before.

Rahatmattata

10-31-2008, 12:57 PM

So, I wonder, with the nerf to double attack, and the removal of the shield requirement, is dw the way to go now for dps? Can you dw with the gladiator line and still get the dbl attk bonus, or do you have to have at least a shield equipped?

Undorett

10-31-2008, 03:41 PM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Apparently they are adding hate generationg to majority of our combat arts? I think I have read this somewhere, can someone clarify? NopeIncreasing our survivability even further then what it is now still makes us the top Raid tank in the game. What game are you playing? My survivability went down -8% uncontested riposte, - all shield block%, or do you mean the 5% more mitigation we can add to def stance (about 1% actual mitigation)</blockquote>The new sta line was not on beta yet, so we will need to look at it tonight...assuming it is there tonight that is.

Elanjar

10-31-2008, 05:44 PM

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well all I can say is grats fighters that aren't tanking. You now have even less reason to be on raids/groups than before.</blockquote>Why do you play a guardian if you dont want to tank???Rahatmattata- it was stated that the buckler requirement has been changed. We dont know what the change is yet. It could just be that a shield is required or possibly as you were thinking no requirement at all. We shall see.

Landiin

10-31-2008, 06:08 PM

Right now my setup on beta is STR 4488 AGI 4485 INT 44682 Keep in mind I don't have my Myth and mostly t2 geared. This setup is what I found worked best to maintain aggro on most of the encounters in instances for me. No idea how it will work for raids. I would parse about 1 to 2k+ in instances depending of if I had to drop to D or not. However it wasn't enough to hold aggro off Fury's and locks, they had to watch themselves. STR4; Inc Hate gain by 8% and adds 24% to the base amount of our taunts. This added 576 more hate to Impede (MII). AGI4; Seemed to help keep aggro on me. If it did or not I don't know time will tell I guess.Beta seems to be patching now, so if the change the AA's this may change.

schizolic

10-31-2008, 07:41 PM

so now sta 3 caps at 25% da, and 4 is 1.5 shield effectiveness per level.

thial

10-31-2008, 07:51 PM

Changes to sta line are as follows (sum1 posted in zerk forums already but some dont go there)Reversal is now just a shield not buckler- damage looks the sameGladiator's Finesse is now 25% double attack while meleeing no shield required @8 pointsGladiator's revenger is now a shield effectiveness of 12% @ 8 pointsthey also changed the warrior line countering strike to a chance to resist stun by 2% each rank imo much better than the + to repo damage.Dam beat me to it schizolic shouldnt have took a break and got some food before i posted

schizolic

10-31-2008, 08:16 PM

ah, dont worry, you put in more info than i did.and wait for the groans when the new mythic info leaks.... zerker mythic now very superior.

Elanjar

10-31-2008, 08:43 PM

I at least was voting for you guys to get a good mythical change. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Undorett

10-31-2008, 09:37 PM

<cite>Taharn wrote:</cite><blockquote>We get 3 new hate increasing abilities and reuse on rescue and reinforcement has been lowered</blockquote>Reinforcement has the same reuse it always did, maybe you were looking at the reuse with 2 peices of the VP set on or changed your AA lines around.

code

10-31-2008, 10:59 PM

The guardian mythical got nerfed so bad. 12 secs stun/stifle immunity? please. AoC here I come, just needed a little nudge!It's funny how people cheer on the guardian nerf. They don't realize that raid content was tuned with a Guardian tanking. When Guardians get nerfed, the whole raid gets nerfed. Der??

Rahatmattata

11-01-2008, 11:29 AM

Eh, the only people cheering are the same 3 or 4 people that have been all teary-eyed all throughout RoK posting in every thread that has anything to do with a fighter. I'm just going to wait and see how this plays out. Things are still getting changed and from the sound of it they have gone way overboard with the nerfs.As long as I have good threat control and survivability, I don't care what they do. But, it sounds like survivability has dropped and threat control is extremely difficult. Sucks for the healers and dps really. Maybe this time around SKs will be the pwn and there will be no reason to play a guardian. In all this "great tank revamp balance" they seem to be focused on raid tanking and forget that we already are outperformed in instances by other fighters, are quite probably the worst soloers and not too hot in pvp. So then, why play a guardian?One thing is for sure, one class will reign as the supreme raid main tank, with the remaining plate tanks scrambling for ot spots to pickup the adds and deal with memwipes. With our gimped dps, and worst raidwide buff in the game, why bring a guardian on a raid if not to mt? With our poor soloing ability, and probably one of the worst instance plate tanks, why play a guardian if we have no position on a raid? Cuz, let's face it. If a guardian isn't in the MT spot he has no place in a raid.Anyway, this is all just pure speculation on my part. I'm not in beta I just have to go from what I've heard and read. I just hope they are careful with these various nerfs and there is more than just 1 guy in charge of this balancing. I rolled a guardian because I wanted to be the most defensive fighter. Hopefully we will still be the most defensive fighter, but we will need to be able to keep mobs on us or that defense means nothing. TBH, I'm more curious about threat control than our survivability, seems like we'll still be decent, but I already have our SK and dps getting some rips with 100% dbl attk ad 50% hate mod. Also have heard rumor a while ago about nerfing autoattack to priest dps table... any word on that? But we will see. I'm really not worried either way, cuz in the end either SoE will get my cash for another year or they won't.I'll leave you guys with a quote straight from the official eq2 website: "Guardians are the anchor of any group of adventurers, providing leadership and protection for their allies. Combining durable armor with an impressive array of defensive skills, Guardians can remain standing after absorbing substantial amounts of physical damage from their enemies."

Triste-Lune

11-03-2008, 05:52 AM

survability for guard was way overpowered uncontested avoidance was humougously too powerfull. our guard stayed up for 1min+ with no healer alive on tangrin, the only reason he died was when he got disarmed and lost a huge amount of uncontested avoidance. guardian will remain the apha & omega tank reguardless of what you main think, getting nerfed always suck but it was a needed change just like the one of LU13. it s only a matter of time since you regain your overpowered status like it has always been. for your mythical, well i m torn between "lol owned" and "wow SOE's really stupid", the "lol owned" is aimed at all the mediocre guardians who cant play without relying on the class itself being overpowered, and the "wow SOE's really stupid" is oubviously here this clicky is just stupid it s like an insult followed by a slap in the face, a good beating and finally pourring salt on the wounds :/

Soul_Dreamer

11-03-2008, 08:35 AM

I'm happy with where the Guardian is in relation to the other tank classes. We've lost some DA but this can be gained back through items and new AA's from other classes. The 8% Uncontested avoid we lost doesn't make an uber difference, infact with the +Shield effectiveness in Sta line now we only lost about 4% uncontested avoid. All it means is we'll spike a little more often until we can find a way to make up the difference again.Agro, I'm not seeing much of an issue, I never lost agro much before and I'm not doing so now, maybe a little more but not as drastic as it's being made out here.The plate fighters are the most balanced they have been in a long long time which is a good thing. The only Issue I have is the changed Mythical which is utter trash and had no thought put into it.During the quest for the Guardian mythical we're told that the weapon thirsts for blood and if given it rewards.I have /feedbacked the following a couple of times now for the change to the effect we currently have which is marginally better than a freedom of mind potion <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Choose ANY 2 of the 6 Effects below or think of new ones. We need to keep attacking to get the benefits for the full duration.Shielding of Val`Arek20 Second Duration, 2 min reuseOn Any Successful attack1. Increases Shield effectiveness of the Guardian by 30% for 5 seconds.2. Makes Guardian immune to Stun/Stifle/Mezz/Charm/Fear/Knockback/Root/Snare for 5 seconds (3-4 of these control effects, not all).3. Wards the Guardian for 500hp for 3 seconds.4. Increases hate position of the Guardian by 1 position.5. 25% of Damage Dealt by the Guardian is Converted to a Heal for the Guardian.6. Increases the Riposte Chance of the Guardian by 100, this will drop after 1 Riposte, duration 5 seconds.

Kreagan De'Unerro

11-03-2008, 11:57 AM

Agaijn, why a freaken clicky effect? LAME!How about: On any attack this will proc an average of 1.8times per minute the following:1.) Shielding effect - Will absorb the next 2 attacks2.) Shielding effect - Will increase the raidwide Def by 103.) Shielding effect - Will absorb 2000 points of all damage4.) Hate generation - For next 10 seconds all threat toward attacker is increased by 5%5.) Hate generation - Hate position increases by 1 position, threat increased by 5006.) Healing - Heals attacker for 500hp7.) Debuff - Decreases targets STR/AGIL/DEF by 77Anything on lines like these above will be acceptable, just get rid of a clicky, period. We need better options on our Mythical.I remember hearing somewhere SoE was never gonna give into the whiners about game developement again seeing as what it had done to them with SWG back in the NGE days. But it seems the whining SKs and Zerkers got them to do it all over again. As well as other classes, Like how the heck is a fury out parsing a wizard now? A HEALER OUT PARSING A MAGE? [Removed for Content]!?WAKE UP SoE! EQ2 has been on a downward spiral for sometime, stop the decent!

Grumpy_Warrior_01

11-03-2008, 01:21 PM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Agaijn, why a freaken clicky effect? LAME!How about: On any attack this will proc an average of 1.8times per minute the following:1.) Shielding effect - Will absorb the next 2 attacks2.) Shielding effect - Will increase the raidwide Def by 103.) Shielding effect - Will absorb 2000 points of all damage4.) Hate generation - For next 10 seconds all threat toward attacker is increased by 5%5.) Hate generation - Hate position increases by 1 position, threat increased by 5006.) Healing - Heals attacker for 500hp7.) Debuff - Decreases targets STR/AGIL/DEF by 77Anything on lines like these above will be acceptable, just get rid of a clicky, period. We need better options on our Mythical.I remember hearing somewhere SoE was never gonna give into the whiners about game developement again seeing as what it had done to them with SWG back in the NGE days. But it seems the whining SKs and Zerkers got them to do it all over again. As well as other classes, Like how the heck is a fury out parsing a wizard now? A HEALER OUT PARSING A MAGE? [Removed for Content]!?WAKE UP SoE! EQ2 has been on a downward spiral for sometime, stop the decent!</blockquote>I remember relying on (translate: praying for) random procs for hate generation in EQ Live so we could (randomly) do our job, and I'm negative about going back down that road. A passive ability would be best. A clicky is one more dang icon on the toolbars, but at least we can control when it activates. Please don't campaign for random procs on the guardian mythical weapon.

Rahatmattata

11-03-2008, 01:35 PM

I'd rather have a proc than a clicky. But some of the ideas seem pretty weak. A 500 point ward or heal is jack squat when you have 31k hp (taken from 2nd post in thread). I'm not so good at coming up with ideas, but I'd rather have something like a stoneskin proc or maybe a daze proc with a decent duration. Or even a mini bolster. Give us 1 or 2k hp for a few seconds on a proc.

Soul_Dreamer

11-03-2008, 09:37 PM

I for one do not want to be relying on the RNG for survivability more than I am now.Perma effect/ Clicky is better than a proc simply because we have control of it. The effect will probably end up being something that stays inline with the idea of a Guardian. Staying up against hits that would have killed others and helping the group stay up. Agro would be a bonus, but from what I've seen we don't have as much of a problem there as people are making out.Possible effects..HealWardStoneskinImmunityCA/Crit/DAShield effectivenessDamage reductionHateHate PositionRemember that..Perma effect will be of lesser substance than a ProcProc will be of lesser substance than a Clicky (depending on durations)Damage reduction as example...Take a 2 min fight.20 hits taken each of 5kPerma 10% Damage reduction - 20 hits of 4.5k = 90k Damage inc.Proc 2 times a min for 30% reduction for 20 seconds. - 20 seconds of 3.5k hits approx 3 hits. 40 seconds of 5k hits, 7 hits.20 seconds of 3.5k hits approx 3 hits. 40 seconds of 5k hits, 7 hits.91k Damage inc.Clicky for 50% damage reduction, 20 sec duration 2 min recast20 seconds of 2.5k hits, 3100 secs of 5k hits, 17 - 92.5 Damage incSOE will see the maths as similar, in practicality if we have control of when the damage/agro/imunity/hp is coming it's more useful. Add into the above random spikes, adds killing healers, stuns on healers, KB's, AOE's killing healers and which would you rather have?We need to find something that is missing from the class or we do poorly in raiding and if we had it it would help us perform our primary role, WITHOUT overpowering us or setting us leagues ahead of other fighters.The above said, why not make that OT useful always <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Perma buffRaid wide targettable, target must be fighter20% of inc Damage is Dealt to target (Fighter), 80% to caster (Guardian).-5% Base Damage to spells and combat arts to Target (Fighter), +5% to spells and Combat arts to caster (Guardian)

Bruener

11-03-2008, 11:46 PM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Agaijn, why a freaken clicky effect? LAME!How about: On any attack this will proc an average of 1.8times per minute the following:1.) Shielding effect - Will absorb the next 2 attacks2.) Shielding effect - Will increase the raidwide Def by 103.) Shielding effect - Will absorb 2000 points of all damage4.) Hate generation - For next 10 seconds all threat toward attacker is increased by 5%5.) Hate generation - Hate position increases by 1 position, threat increased by 5006.) Healing - Heals attacker for 500hp7.) Debuff - Decreases targets STR/AGIL/DEF by 77Anything on lines like these above will be acceptable, just get rid of a clicky, period. We need better options on our Mythical.I remember hearing somewhere SoE was never gonna give into the whiners about game developement again seeing as what it had done to them with SWG back in the NGE days. But it seems the whining SKs and Zerkers got them to do it all over again. As well as other classes, Like how the heck is a fury out parsing a wizard now? A HEALER OUT PARSING A MAGE? [Removed for Content]!?WAKE UP SoE! EQ2 has been on a downward spiral for sometime, stop the decent!</blockquote>Lol, nothing like blowing things way out of proportion. You show me those parses of that fury owning a wizard and I will tell you the wizard that should quit the game than. The changes that are coming in TSO were much needed changes that have been festering since EoF. There was a reason every other Bezerker was betraying to a Guard, and you never saw a guild recruiting SKs.Anyhow was thumbing through this thread and this post made me laugh. Talk about outrageous over-statements.

Kreagan De'Unerro

11-04-2008, 03:35 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Agaijn, why a freaken clicky effect? LAME!How about: On any attack this will proc an average of 1.8times per minute the following:1.) Shielding effect - Will absorb the next 2 attacks2.) Shielding effect - Will increase the raidwide Def by 103.) Shielding effect - Will absorb 2000 points of all damage4.) Hate generation - For next 10 seconds all threat toward attacker is increased by 5%5.) Hate generation - Hate position increases by 1 position, threat increased by 5006.) Healing - Heals attacker for 500hp7.) Debuff - Decreases targets STR/AGIL/DEF by 77Anything on lines like these above will be acceptable, just get rid of a clicky, period. We need better options on our Mythical.I remember hearing somewhere SoE was never gonna give into the whiners about game developement again seeing as what it had done to them with SWG back in the NGE days. But it seems the whining SKs and Zerkers got them to do it all over again. As well as other classes, Like how the heck is a fury out parsing a wizard now? A HEALER OUT PARSING A MAGE? [Removed for Content]!?WAKE UP SoE! EQ2 has been on a downward spiral for sometime, stop the decent!</blockquote>Lol, nothing like blowing things way out of proportion. You show me those parses of that fury owning a wizard and I will tell you the wizard that should quit the game than. The changes that are coming in TSO were much needed changes that have been festering since EoF. There was a reason every other Bezerker was betraying to a Guard, and you never saw a guild recruiting SKs.Anyhow was thumbing through this thread and this post made me laugh. Talk about outrageous over-statements.</blockquote>Majority of the furies spells got massive upgrades to DPS. As you surely know, they have quite a few AoE spells. Which in beta a pretty decent fury and a pretty decent wizzy who raid together in a top tier guild were running some zones together. The fury was out parsing the wizzy by almost 1.3k on ALL AoE fights. They both were VP geared and the wizzy usually can hit 8k on VP trash.

Davngr1

11-04-2008, 09:00 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Agaijn, why a freaken clicky effect? LAME!How about: On any attack this will proc an average of 1.8times per minute the following:1.) Shielding effect - Will absorb the next 2 attacks2.) Shielding effect - Will increase the raidwide Def by 103.) Shielding effect - Will absorb 2000 points of all damage4.) Hate generation - For next 10 seconds all threat toward attacker is increased by 5%5.) Hate generation - Hate position increases by 1 position, threat increased by 5006.) Healing - Heals attacker for 500hp7.) Debuff - Decreases targets STR/AGIL/DEF by 77Anything on lines like these above will be acceptable, just get rid of a clicky, period. We need better options on our Mythical.I remember hearing somewhere SoE was never gonna give into the whiners about game developement again seeing as what it had done to them with SWG back in the NGE days. But it seems the whining SKs and Zerkers got them to do it all over again. As well as other classes, Like how the heck is a fury out parsing a wizard now? A HEALER OUT PARSING A MAGE? [Removed for Content]!?WAKE UP SoE! EQ2 has been on a downward spiral for sometime, stop the decent!</blockquote>Lol, nothing like blowing things way out of proportion. You show me those parses of that fury owning a wizard and I will tell you the wizard that should quit the game than. The changes that are coming in TSO were much needed changes that have been festering since EoF. There was a reason every other Bezerker was betraying to a Guard, and you never saw a guild recruiting SKs.Anyhow was thumbing through this thread and this post made me laugh. Talk about outrageous over-statements.</blockquote> zerkers where doing great in EoF because of the AoE content but the lack of AoE content in RoK combined with how easy betraying is, was what lead zerks to betray. SK's took a turn for the worst when mitigation was changed when EoF came out. in KoS SK where doing just fine, so good in fact, i would get ridiculed by SK on the channels for playing a guard. neither of those had anything to do with guardians and that's why i can't understand why people ask for nerfs to other classes instead of fixes for their own.

LygerT

11-04-2008, 08:28 PM

so a fury who caught a sleeping wizard means they should be nerfed? great example because that is how i am seeing alot of the debates on current tank balance to try and revert alot of the progress that has been made.

Raahl

11-14-2008, 10:41 AM

Any News on the other warrior lines? Is the Wis Line still pretty useless?DPS vs. Taunts - As long as we can hold aggro I have no worries about a reduction in DPS.DPS vs. Soloing - The reduced DPS will affect soloing a lot. Unless our survivability increased I forsee being able to solo near impossible.BTW, Hello everyone. I'm back. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

Terron

11-14-2008, 11:04 AM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Majority of the furies spells got massive upgrades to DPS. As you surely know, they have quite a few AoE spells.</blockquote>Unless some new ones have been added furies have 2 AoE spells damage spells - an AoE nuke (starfire line) and an AoE pet (ring of fire), hardly quite a few.Though having seen the damage the beta spells do I can believe that for some encounters a fury could beat a wizard.

Terron

11-14-2008, 11:10 AM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>DPS vs. Soloing - The reduced DPS will affect soloing a lot. Unless our survivability increased I forsee being able to solo near impossible.</blockquote>It is quite possible to solo without using the WIS line. Are there any other changes that would reduce our DPS?The end ability in the STR line seems designed for soloing, being near useless if you are grouped with a healer. It is already useful for soloing tough mobs. If they wanted to boost our soloing without improving our tanking they could enhance that ability.

tikasa

11-15-2008, 08:11 AM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Majority of the furies spells got massive upgrades to DPS. As you surely know, they have quite a few AoE spells.</blockquote>Unless some new ones have been added furies have 2 AoE spells damage spells - an AoE nuke (starfire line) and an AoE pet (ring of fire), hardly quite a few.Though having seen the damage the beta spells do I can believe that for some encounters a fury could beat a wizard.</blockquote>ROTFLMFAO you are joking right? If the Wizard was AFK and lvl 70 then MAYBE a fury would have a shot. They have shot TSO AA's up. Right now a Templar in the mage group can come close to a Fury in TSO.Buy a clue before you post such garbage!!!

Kreagan De'Unerro

11-15-2008, 12:55 PM

<cite>tikasa wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Majority of the furies spells got massive upgrades to DPS. As you surely know, they have quite a few AoE spells.</blockquote>Unless some new ones have been added furies have 2 AoE spells damage spells - an AoE nuke (starfire line) and an AoE pet (ring of fire), hardly quite a few.Though having seen the damage the beta spells do I can believe that for some encounters a fury could beat a wizard.</blockquote>ROTFLMFAO you are joking right? If the Wizard was AFK and lvl 70 then MAYBE a fury would have a shot. They have shot TSO AA's up. Right now a Templar in the mage group can come close to a Fury in TSO.Buy a clue before you post such garbage!!!</blockquote>Since this post they DID nerf the Fury DPS. Because there was so much uproar in how much AoE DPS they were doin compared to mages.You get a clue. You do realize Wizzies weren't great AoE casters as it is right? Cept Fission and another they are the suck for AoE.Your get a clue.

TuinalOfTheNexus

11-16-2008, 12:26 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote> zerkers where doing great in EoF because of the AoE content but the lack of AoE content in RoK combined with how easy betraying is, was what lead zerks to betray. SK's took a turn for the worst when mitigation was changed when EoF came out. in KoS SK where doing just fine, so good in fact, i would get ridiculed by SK on the channels for playing a guard. neither of those had anything to do with guardians and that's why i can't understand why people ask for nerfs to other classes instead of fixes for their own.</blockquote> The things that made Guardians so strong in RoK were/are1) RoK was an expansion without any significant amount of group trash encounters. This was an awful design decision that meant for the entire expansion single target classes dominated. Just look at the FOTM classes for RoK - Assassin, Guardian, Wizard, Brigand... then look at the least popular classes - Warlock, Necromancer, Conjuror, Shadowknight - and ask yourself what they all have in common.2) RoK gear primarily increases autoattack damage (double attack doesn't boost CAs, and few if any CAs have as much damage spread as autoattack, and hence benefit less from melee crits, haste and dps mod again, all autoattack buffs). A significant shift from CA to autoattack damage occurred as a result of this poor itemisation. The classes that rely on autoattack damage for DPS the most are, predictably, Warriors. Hence we got the biggest relative gains from gear.3) Rather than address the mitigation 'curve' problems they introduced in EoF, which makes mitigation on gear meaningless, they took the route of ignoring mitigation, and upgrading avoidance instead with gear. This was done in an arbitrary '+5% uncontested' format, which doesn't scale whatsoever against the mob or with level. Hence raid tanks quickly hit avoidance levels bordering on the ridiculous, especially given that their forte is meant to be soaking damage rather than avoiding it completely. This path obviously leads to an impossible situation where upgrading gear with more +shield block ultimately leads to 100% avoidance, an itemisation dead end.4) The Guardian mythical was one of the best designed and most desirable ones. Again since the class is heavily autoattack-dependant, the raw damage rating and ratio on the epic alone is a significant DPS upgrade.Combined, these 4 issues meant that Guardians, the single target tanks that got the most from gear upgrades, unquestionably proved the 'best' all-round tank for the expansion full of single target fights.Thing is, any of these 4 things alone, corrected, would have balanced the class. Even with the game as-is, Guardians are not the best tanks for AE aggro or DPS. Given an expansion full of group encounters, the class will immediately cease to become the 'best' tank for all situations. In the hypothetical situation that they persisted in creating nothing but single-target raid content, then a DPS nerf for Guardians would probably be warranted - but this isn't the case.The developers are about to make the same, tired old mistake, of instead of changing one variable and observing the results, changing a half-dozen things simultaneously. We get worse AAs than the other tanks, worse set gear, a worse mythical, an expansion full of encounters suited more to AE tanks, and the only positive I can see is that betrayal is extremely fast and simple. I particularly loathe balancing classes through set gear or AAs, because put simply, who wants to raid for months for lame gear and lousy AA abilities? I'd rather have the class properly balanced out of the gate and have decent upgrades available for all 24 classes rather than horrible set loot created as a stealth-nerf.But the Guardians I feel most for are the non-raid ones. The ones that are about to take a huge double attack nerf just because of the parses we were putting out with 100% crits and jewels of animosity. Guardians are probably the worst class solo, and without raid gear, they'll be very weak casual group tanks too compared to Crusaders and Berserkers. As a raid Guardian you might get pushed more into a niche but you do still have the crutch of being the most survivable tank (and probably the best geared and most experienced one since you've been stuck in the MT role for so long), and the control effect immunity on the new Mythical might well prove useful if these group encounters are stunning/stifling a lot. As a solo or group Guardian though, things are looking very bleak.

Yimway

11-17-2008, 12:46 PM

<cite>TuinalOfTheNexus wro</cite><blockquote>The developers are about to make the same, tired old mistake, of instead of changing one variable and observing the results, changing a half-dozen things simultaneously. We get worse AAs than the other tanks, worse set gear, a worse mythical, an expansion full of encounters suited more to AE tanks, and the only positive I can see is that betrayal is extremely fast and simple. I particularly loathe balancing classes through set gear or AAs, because put simply, who wants to raid for months for lame gear and lousy AA abilities? I'd rather have the class properly balanced out of the gate and have decent upgrades available for all 24 classes rather than horrible set loot created as a stealth-nerf.But the Guardians I feel most for are the non-raid ones. The ones that are about to take a huge double attack nerf just because of the parses we were putting out with 100% crits and jewels of animosity. Guardians are probably the worst class solo, and without raid gear, they'll be very weak casual group tanks too compared to Crusaders and Berserkers. As a raid Guardian you might get pushed more into a niche but you do still have the crutch of being the most survivable tank (and probably the best geared and most experienced one since you've been stuck in the MT role for so long), and the control effect immunity on the new Mythical might well prove useful if these group encounters are stunning/stifling a lot. As a solo or group Guardian though, things are looking very bleak.</blockquote>Agree with everything posted.Just wanted to add, most Guard / MT's I know are either a) leaving the game, or b) already leveled an SK to 70+ in preperation for the expansion. I still contend it wasn't the fact playing a guardian made most of us the best tanks in game, but the best tank players leveled / played a guardian in the past 2 expansions cause we understood which class filled the role best. Are these top tank players going to stay with a game/class that deminishes their ability? Probably not.When I announced I was leaving, people jumped in and bought me 3 copies of the expansion and some game cards to keep me around for a while to give SoE a chance to 'ballance' things again. So, my SK should ding 72 tonight before the servers shut down, and I'll be 80 and myth'd +fabled in 2-3 weeks. We'll see come December 15th, which class I'm playing as MT.

Rahatmattata

11-17-2008, 02:09 PM

Wow, maybe I should threaten to quit.

Kreagan De'Unerro

11-17-2008, 07:33 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TuinalOfTheNexus wro</cite><blockquote>The developers are about to make the same, tired old mistake, of instead of changing one variable and observing the results, changing a half-dozen things simultaneously. We get worse AAs than the other tanks, worse set gear, a worse mythical, an expansion full of encounters suited more to AE tanks, and the only positive I can see is that betrayal is extremely fast and simple. I particularly loathe balancing classes through set gear or AAs, because put simply, who wants to raid for months for lame gear and lousy AA abilities? I'd rather have the class properly balanced out of the gate and have decent upgrades available for all 24 classes rather than horrible set loot created as a stealth-nerf.But the Guardians I feel most for are the non-raid ones. The ones that are about to take a huge double attack nerf just because of the parses we were putting out with 100% crits and jewels of animosity. Guardians are probably the worst class solo, and without raid gear, they'll be very weak casual group tanks too compared to Crusaders and Berserkers. As a raid Guardian you might get pushed more into a niche but you do still have the crutch of being the most survivable tank (and probably the best geared and most experienced one since you've been stuck in the MT role for so long), and the control effect immunity on the new Mythical might well prove useful if these group encounters are stunning/stifling a lot. As a solo or group Guardian though, things are looking very bleak.</blockquote>Agree with everything posted.Just wanted to add, most Guard / MT's I know are either a) leaving the game, or b) already leveled an SK to 70+ in preperation for the expansion. I still contend it wasn't the fact playing a guardian made most of us the best tanks in game, but the best tank players leveled / played a guardian in the past 2 expansions cause we understood which class filled the role best. Are these top tank players going to stay with a game/class that deminishes their ability? Probably not.When I announced I was leaving, people jumped in and bought me 3 copies of the expansion and some game cards to keep me around for a while to give SoE a chance to 'ballance' things again. So, my SK should ding 72 tonight before the servers shut down, and I'll be 80 and myth'd +fabled in 2-3 weeks. We'll see come December 15th, which class I'm playing as MT.</blockquote>I have been MT raids since KoS and enjoying it as a guard.But with what SoE has been doing(brings back memories of the SWG NGE fiasco) to us and increasing DPS and AOE encounters I decided in the best interest of my guild to advance in the upcoming expack to roll an SK alt just in case.Started him last week and in under 24hrs of gameplay he has hit 65, should be fabled/myth'd out if necessary by early december.Was fun leveling the SK, having great healers,troub,warlock and coercer helping, I was pulling 30-50mobs in Clefts at a time and destroying them. They were Blue-white conned.I have seen Zerkers MT all of VP mobs cept Trak, and SKs OT most of the RoK content effeciently. These people whining and saying they could not do it with those clases as they were in RoK just did not know how to tank and did not most likely deserve a slot tanking. It is like a wizzy parsing 1k, would you really want them with you? Or is that class broken? Or a Dirge who didn't know what Percussion of Stone was?

11-18-2008, 06:53 AM

Rok beta begins today(ok officially it just ended), but all joking aside, i have tried to fight the good fight on the beta forums, let me tell you it has been fustrating. Fustrating in the way that i have hit, cancel, back or just plain clicked X, to stop myself from replying to every known zerker jumping in on a guardian thread.I have no problem with feedback of any kind, i don't mind if other classes chime in on a guardian specific thread, i do however have a problem with people who respond, just to respond or are so scared of nerfs or changes or whatever they just pounce on any thread with "guardian" in the title and hope to beat it down.My impressions, tanking/grouping in TSO as a 2year mt raiding guard? it's pretty [Removed for Content] near horrible. Yes i can hold aggro fine on trash and boss mobs, but it is ever so more the chore. Am i lazy? no i've been a mt for 2years killing 95% of my server's avatars it's not being lazy it's that we have no edge, or rather the edge that sony states we should have is not there.Here's how i see it at launch(like right now) Guardians will still have the defensive edge, but as the days and weeks go on and everyone inches closer to 200aa, Guardians become nothing more than Berserkers with less dps and no aoe aggro. How can i say? i've looked at the aa's i've played my guard i've played a zerker, the zerker feels about the same as my guard and my guard has every piece of avatar gear you'd want. Oh i started out as a zerker so i'm confident i know how to play both. I really see that if aa's and things stay the same for at least 3months, as everyone is near 200aa Guards will have to betray. Why do i say have to? b/c there simply is no reason to stay a Guardian, oh sure you can use the, "i love the class arguement, or i read the handbook that was made in 2004 and i wanted to be protector of men!". Me personally as a raiding MT, i have to give my guild the best MT available wether that be Guard or Berserker since betrayal takes a few hours and around a few k plat.Straight up, if they made a class mirro, just like the AA mirror where you can swap your arch type(in this case guard/berserker) and keep all your masters around everyone would be a berserker, and the only time you'd be a guard is if you tanked a tangrin style mob for the first time on the server. And that is still a maybe, because statistically, if you choose to spec a certain way, a berserker can have more "oh s%%%" and 2 more death saves than a guardian.

Morgane

11-18-2008, 11:31 AM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>Missing from the guardian line - every other class had their raidwide buff improved, ours wasnt touched.</blockquote>Well, actually Monks got their only raid-wide speed buff nerfed from 15% to 7-ish%. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" />

Yimway

11-18-2008, 01:15 PM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have seen Zerkers MT all of VP mobs cept Trak, and SKs OT most of the RoK content effeciently. These people whining and saying they could not do it with those clases as they were in RoK just did not know how to tank and did not most likely deserve a slot tanking. It is like a wizzy parsing 1k, would you really want them with you? Or is that class broken? Or a Dirge who didn't know what Percussion of Stone was?</blockquote>Absolutely, we've had an alt SK offtank all of VP. The classes weren't broken at all before, just most players on them didn't seem to have a clue.But the tone of your post is dead on. The talented tanking user base isn't going to stay on a broken / trvialized tank class. We'll either roll new classes, betray, or move on to warhammer.

motogp

11-18-2008, 02:31 PM

Remember when Zerkers betrayed to Guards? Looks like Guards will betray to Zerkers now. Math dont tell lies. Zerkers are better in TSO. A shame really, Raid tanks are a 7 day aweek type of player. Im sure some will betray some will quit. Im just completely dissatisfied. Good luck in tso. Edit: I get a JC from a Troub when i think i need it. The troubs will have to cast JC on 1 less player in a raid now. The Guardian "JC" is a waste. It should be a Block or some type of hate. What a waste.

Xalmat

11-20-2008, 03:17 AM

Haven't grouped with a Guardian in TSO yet, but judging by all the AoE encounters, I wouldn't want to bring my Conjuror in a group with one unless at Guardian is AGI spec'd, or I'll be ripping aggro on every pull.

Obadiah

11-20-2008, 12:49 PM

<cite>Auron@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rok beta begins today(ok officially it just ended), but all joking aside, i have tried to fight the good fight on the beta forums, let me tell you it has been fustrating. Fustrating in the way that i have hit, cancel, back or just plain clicked X, to stop myself from replying to every known zerker jumping in on a guardian thread.I have no problem with feedback of any kind, i don't mind if other classes chime in on a guardian specific thread, i do however have a problem with people who respond, just to respond or are so scared of nerfs or changes or whatever they just pounce on any thread with "guardian" in the title and hope to beat it down.</blockquote>When Berserkers posted in a Guardian thread on Beta they were "invited" in by Guardians who instead of focusing on fixes for their classes focused on calling for nerfs to Berserkers. In a similar fashion, you've invited me here with this false characterization of the beta forums. The problem you're referring to was really 2-3 Guardians and 2-3 Berserkers, and if you read the Berserker threads you know quite well it went both ways. There were 4 Warriors that probably made up 50% of the posts in both sets of threads.I thought your feedback on Beta was focused, illustrated the issues you were experiencing, and remained on topic. Please though, let's not allow the same subclass warfare start up here that wasted so many pages of forum space and probably prevented a lot of useful feedback from being read.

LygerT

11-20-2008, 02:52 PM

i never really wanted all the heroic zones to be multiple encounters, i had already stated many times to the devs that the instances should be split and based off of character specialization to give the AE classes somewhere to call home but obviously they didn't see the problem with that and instead tossed in AE fights everywhere splashed with solo mobs here and there to even it out. i knew it was a bad idea but it was put in anyways.my only beef was with the guardians posting false information and trying to get us nerfed or to reign supreme again on the raid content(read as most) which still to me seems to be mainly single target in TSO, on top the majority of RoK is still single target so that really changes nothing in the aspect of raid tanks except that guards are no longer 2 steps above the rest in single target survivability and aggro, which i also don't agree with nor did i ever, but the whining after having been on top for years it's easy to understand why the others poked at you when you cried foul(of course some didn't deserve this though, only the instigators who chose to bring up biased arguments).the capabilities are there for almost any class, i've MTed all the instanced raid content in RoK but only after our guard went in first. of course i'm not saying we couldn't do it start to finish because we don't need to argue who is the better tank for what.i just wish they would have split things to give desirability to those who wanted something to suit them, which was a long time in coming.

11-20-2008, 07:15 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Auron@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rok beta begins today(ok officially it just ended), but all joking aside, i have tried to fight the good fight on the beta forums, let me tell you it has been fustrating. Fustrating in the way that i have hit, cancel, back or just plain clicked X, to stop myself from replying to every known zerker jumping in on a guardian thread.I have no problem with feedback of any kind, i don't mind if other classes chime in on a guardian specific thread, i do however have a problem with people who respond, just to respond or are so scared of nerfs or changes or whatever they just pounce on any thread with "guardian" in the title and hope to beat it down.</blockquote>When Berserkers posted in a Guardian thread on Beta they were "invited" in by Guardians who instead of focusing on fixes for their classes focused on calling for nerfs to Berserkers. In a similar fashion, you've invited me here with this false characterization of the beta forums. The problem you're referring to was really 2-3 Guardians and 2-3 Berserkers, and if you read the Berserker threads you know quite well it went both ways. There were 4 Warriors that probably made up 50% of the posts in both sets of threads.I thought your feedback on Beta was focused, illustrated the issues you were experiencing, and remained on topic. Please though, let's not allow the same subclass warfare start up here that wasted so many pages of forum space and probably prevented a lot of useful feedback from being read.</blockquote>My focus became the problem, i would adhere to be on topic and not resorting to reply after reply of comebacks, i'd just take take a day, and type it out on word for another day. As far as i saw i tried to give my best feedback on raid tanking, since my whole guild was in beta, i also tried to give a perspective from an avatar geared tank, which means i've seen it all i have it all i only saw maybe 3 avatar geared tanks responding somewhat frequently?I didn't even agree w/ what half the community was calling, for while i didn't care for single aggro dominance(b/c i thought it was fine in raid tanking terms) i thought well yea i guess if aerlik wants us to be single aggro tanks we should at least have an edge in it since thats our new role, and aoe aggro tanks have the best of both aoe and single aggro dominance. Nor did i care for any extra aoe taunts or aoe aa's, if you mirror spec agi your fine for instances. From my perspective of a raid tank that has used every "oh S%%%" ability available, i saw the berserker having just as much, but in my opinion, more this is what i focused on heavily. I'll just take tangrin as a constant 4day contestable, when we first killed him for a month, i used everything i had, ring dolls, heal pots i jcap sphere/block, i respected to a tinkerer for deathsave, i have the stupid lon full hp pot(1day reuse, 3s cast, trust me you can find a use for it) and i've used my avatar rescue hammer for 20% parry almost constantly, i know the uses of "oh sh%%". I tried out the berserker, they have more, simple as that.The problem i've stated numerous times in beta, is as my guild and myself all level up to 200aa, what is preventing me from betraying? masters? even if i wasn't top 10 richest on my server i could easily ask my guild to finance it. Betrayal time? 6hours is nothing really, getting to know the class? i started out as a berserker again, same as now, when i was a berserker for kos and saw how neglected they were in eof, i betrayed. Gear? currently i have 2 guardian only pieces which can be replaced in a heartbeat everything else is avatar contested or the same, i could finisht he berserker mythical in a day or i could just be lazy and use any of the avatar weapons at my disposal, they're comprable just w/o the proc(which is nice of course but i'm just saying i won't be out on a lerch and have like a MC weapon for a few days). My problem is not that i can betray on a whim and be the class i want to be, it's that why is it always flip flopping to this? Why can we just not have this happen? why can't my guardian be an unbreakable brick wall that never dies while never loosing aggro to a single mob but does the lowest 24th dps? Why can't a berserker be made out of stucco while holding 8 mobs and doing top 8 dps?

Obadiah

11-20-2008, 07:26 PM

Remember though, it's not over.Knowing that "Part Two" of the changes is yet to come, it would suck to see anyone betraying in EITHER direction or rolling and levelling an alt at this time based on what's currently there.

Mentalep

11-21-2008, 10:13 AM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Remember though, it's not over.Knowing that "Part Two" of the changes is yet to come, it would suck to see anyone betraying in EITHER direction or rolling and levelling an alt at this time based on what's currently there.</blockquote>What do we know about "part two" of the fighter adjustments? I've seen a secondhand quote from Aeralik (pulled from the beta forums, I think) wherein he mentions looking at threat generation and shifting the tanking focus away from pure DPS, but that's all I've heard and all I can find.

Terron

11-21-2008, 11:33 AM

<cite>Auron@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>why can't my guardian be an unbreakable brick wall that never dies while never loosing aggro to a single mob but does the lowest 24th dps?</blockquote>Perhaps because that would make soloing as a guard even worse than now.Actually it is not too bad now, much better than when I started and found that I could not solo blue solo mobs unless they has down arrows. Or when in the low 30s I was waiting near the entrace to RoV with a zerker and we were killing skeletons. I had to take one at a time as 2 would kill me. He was taking on 5 at a time and killed 2 groups in the time it took me to kill a single one. I largely stopped playing my guard for a while because soloing was too boring.Though soling is acceptable now we can't afford to loose what DPS we do have.Perhaps a self only DPS buff that takes 2 conc slots and has a survivability or aggro penalty might allow us to have enough DPS to solo whilst keeping enough sufficiently behind Berzerkers in groups that we could be given a survivability/aggro advanatage.

Mini

11-25-2008, 09:18 AM

Personally, I am REALLY liking the 2 taunts from the first 2 end ability TSO line aa's. /shrug (OMG.. taunts that actually work!!!)

TuinalOfTheNexus

11-30-2008, 10:12 PM

Odd, because Cry of the Warrior resists 90% of the time for me (that's not a number pulled from thin air, that's actually counting the 3 times it's worked from 30 uses).Perhaps it works outside raids, but I don't have AAs in my DPS spec for it, so I wouldn't know. What I do know is that against an orange raid mob (i.e, on any encounter where it would be mildly useful) it resists, and because it's a CA, the 5 min reuse timer still kicks in.In short this ability has such a high resist rate that coupled with a 5 min reuse on a resist it's useless.

forge32

12-01-2008, 07:53 AM

<cite>Mentalepsy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Remember though, it's not over.Knowing that "Part Two" of the changes is yet to come, it would suck to see anyone betraying in EITHER direction or rolling and levelling an alt at this time based on what's currently there.</blockquote>What do we know about "part two" of the fighter adjustments? I've seen a secondhand quote from Aeralik (pulled from the beta forums, I think) wherein he mentions looking at threat generation and shifting the tanking focus away from pure DPS, but that's all I've heard and all I can find.</blockquote>Latest quote from aeralik on phaze 2.<div><img src="../images/icons/soe.gif" border="0" /> <a href="../user/profile.m?user_id=242118">Aeralik</a></div> Mechanics Guy <img src="../images/avatar/EQ2/base/assassin.gif" border="0" /> Joined: Feb 9, 2006 Messages: 885 Offline The focus of part 2 is looking at the different ways players gain ( or lose ) hate and putting more emphasis on player responsibility. You will likely see the numbers scale up on taunts a lot and hopefully fighters will start to look more at their threat per second while tanking and less so on the raw dps output we see now. <hr />

Vildainn

12-01-2008, 09:32 PM

Hopefully this happens soon. Ive done a mix of zones with all types of diff tanks. When we did Befallen with a guardian +hate transfer he still lost aggro to wizard conjorer every single fight. My heal parse actually was double healing on the wizard and mage than i did on the tank.I decided to fire up my 80 guard and run some instances with same result. Straight up single target fights no problem. We got the great "snap aggro" abilities but nothing to keep it. AOE encounters was impossible to keep hate no matter what I tried. I wont betray my guard but will for sure to continue leveling my SK as right now the hate situation sucks for my guard. I dont got the best gear which im sure is some of it but it never used to be this bad ><The comment that put the final nail in the coffin is when a couple mages in group said"Looks like guardians got the short stick now like SK's before. You guys gotta fight bloody murder for hate while SK ride on coat tails in this expansion"

rabid.pooh

12-02-2008, 04:43 PM

<cite>TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Odd, because Cry of the Warrior resists 90% of the time for me (that's not a number pulled from thin air, that's actually counting the 3 times it's worked from 30 uses).Perhaps it works outside raids, but I don't have AAs in my DPS spec for it, so I wouldn't know. What I do know is that against an orange raid mob (i.e, on any encounter where it would be mildly useful) it resists, and because it's a CA, the 5 min reuse timer still kicks in.In short this ability has such a high resist rate that coupled with a 5 min reuse on a resist it's useless.</blockquote>I agree Cry of the warrior is 90% useless, I think i've seen it land once on a raid mob. Even then maybe the coercer thought snapped it.If SOE wants to make encounter harder by not having epics respond to control type abilities fine, just don't make it an end line ability. Give us something usefull, that will actually work.

Drozan71

12-11-2008, 11:28 PM

<div>I am going to try to be as nice as possible with the following comments... I have played EQ1 for over 7 years. I have played EQ2 for almost a year ( I started playing just after it came out and left just before LU13). I really like EQ1 and also really like EQ2. Each has diff play styles and each are fun in their own ways. I do have to point out a few things though. In all the years I have played SoE games they never can seem to find the "sweet spot" to make the game function as they intend. I play a Guardian in EQ2 and I had a blast getting him to 50 before LU13. They took my once fun class and nerfed him substantially. I admit he was some what over powered but they could have simply lowered the value of his defense buffs and not made different def buffs stack in order to moderate how much Def a player could have. Instead they came around full force with the Nerf bat and screwed the game up for months before they hashed out their proposed changes. So what do they wind up doing yet again?? They make the Fabled gear and Masters so powerful they bring about the same problem they had Pre LU13. Do you see the trend here??? As I said previously I like the 2 SoE games I play but I swear they rush the product out the door to make more money before they fully think out and test the stuff they design. How hard would it have to have been to test a Guardian as an example in Beta before the game was ever released to see their Def buffs made them Semi Godlike?? Where is the testing to make sure your changes are as you want them to be?? Why not get a back bone and just tell people to S.T.F.U. about all the crying and whining of how their class cant do this or cant do that. I learned long ago player skill is a HUGE part of what makes a class good or bad. If you cant do something one way try something else until you can get it to work. It is called adaptation. So SoE please figure out what in the HECK you want this game to be, post it so everyone can see their role in this game then design the game to your liking and ignore the cry babies. Being Politically correct is freaking Lame and I hate folks that have to cave in like that.</div><div> </div><div>Drozan</div><div>51 Guardian</div><div>Butcher Block server</div><div> </div><div>P.S. Flame me if you like, call me an idiot or whatever I honestly dont care. I am entitled to my opinion and just because it may not be the same as yours doesnt mean I am wrong or right. </div>Message Edited by Drozan71 on 11-10-2006 04:49 PM I have to chuckle, that above is a post of how SoE screwed up Guards 2 years ago. Take it from me, They will semi balance the fighters after a few months then proceed to do a complete change yet again down the road. Time to play my Fury and other Alts til they get things figured out...

Dragori

12-12-2008, 04:57 AM

I'm so tired of FotM tanks.*edit* I didn't mean to attack any poster here with this statement. I will make my point more clear:I'm tired of a class balance that leads to a FoTM tank class(! - not player) ... like ...<ul><li>January: main tank of choice - paladin, OT guardian </li><li>February: main tank of choice - shadowknight, OT zerker </li><li>... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></li></ul>I played Vanguard before I came to EQ2 and there was a new 'best' tank about every 3 months. The Vg tank philosophy is that all tank classes are supposed to tank equally well in raids and groups in every aspect. That concept never worked. My VG warrior for example was top for 3 months and became a sorry excuse for a tank with the introduction of some new content and 'balancing' .. probaly he will be top a gain for a while until it's the turn of the next tank class - I'm tired of that.I was hoping to see a clear hierarchy in EQ2:<ul><li>Guardian - No1 raid main tank, acceptable offtank, great group tank, poor soloability, average dps, low utility </li><li>Zerker - No1 raid offtank, acceptable raid main tank, great group tank, decent soloability, good dps, low utility </li><li>Paladin - good raid main tank, good raid offtank, great group tank, good soloability, low dps, high utility </li><li>SK - very good raid offtank, acceptable raid main tank, great group tank, excellent soloability, average dps, decent utility.</li></ul>

YummiOger

12-13-2008, 10:25 AM

Guardian Niche = Main Single target TANK !! <img title="31" src="http://eq2flames.com/images/smilies/various1/31.gif" border="0" />What i wanna se in TSO tree is1) Veterens Hide: +2% Worn Armor effectivness and +2 Melee Crit Reduction per rank - 5 Ranks = +10% to Worn armor Mit and +10% Crit Reduction.2) Increase the Block Hate ability. Or change it to a % so it scales with the stength of the mobs.3) Increase the ToHit of Sentinal Strike and Cry of the Warrior (iv had Cry resist many many times)MYTHICAL Change i thought would be Awsome!!!Greater Guardian Sphere: Increases all trigger percentages of the Sphere lines to 100%. 20% of all these Stoneskins applies to Hate Gain.This would be powerful single target Vs Single uber mob, but weak vs alot of little guys. Could save ur group from a AE (timed right) or urself from a DPS Spike.

Gehemnishthex

12-18-2008, 01:33 PM

<cite>Dragorien wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was hoping to see a clear hierarchy in EQ2:<ul><li>Guardian - No1 raid main tank, acceptable offtank, great group tank, poor soloability, average dps, low utility </li><li>Zerker - No1 raid offtank, acceptable raid main tank, great group tank, decent soloability, good dps, low utility </li><li>Paladin - good raid main tank, good raid offtank, great group tank, good soloability, low dps, high utility </li><li>SK - very good raid offtank, acceptable raid main tank, great group tank, excellent soloability, average dps, decent utility.</li></ul></blockquote>Heh, as an SK i'd rather see all tanks roughly equal at tanking, with the poor soloers improved to not suck at soloing. Soloability shouldn't determine your end game usefulness. Let guardians be better at single target fights and SK's at multi mob encounters, but making some tanks second class citizens is stupid and so very Kunark. No one wants to level a class they love only to bench it because they arn't the only one of six warrior classes that actually live up to their initial concept as a tank. Heck, i'd love to see the brawlers more viable as tanks too.

Dragori

12-18-2008, 02:52 PM

<cite>Gehemnishthex wrote:</cite><blockquote>Heh, as an SK i'd rather see all tanks roughly equal at tanking, with the poor soloers improved to not suck at soloing.</blockquote>That won't work. You will always have a FotM tank class with this approach. One tank will always be better than the others.If you want to main tank for a raid there need to be a safe class choice. To have a main tank today and a sub-par tank (compared to the others) a month later just sucks.SKs need to be strong tanks, but they need to be strong in their niche - just like the other tanks in their niche.

RafaelSmith

12-18-2008, 02:55 PM

<cite>Gehemnishthex wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dragorien wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was hoping to see a clear hierarchy in EQ2:<ul><li>Guardian - No1 raid main tank, acceptable offtank, great group tank, poor soloability, average dps, low utility </li><li>Zerker - No1 raid offtank, acceptable raid main tank, great group tank, decent soloability, good dps, low utility </li><li>Paladin - good raid main tank, good raid offtank, great group tank, good soloability, low dps, high utility </li><li>SK - very good raid offtank, acceptable raid main tank, great group tank, excellent soloability, average dps, decent utility.</li></ul></blockquote>Heh, as an SK i'd rather see all tanks roughly equal at tanking, with the poor soloers improved to not suck at soloing. Soloability shouldn't determine your end game usefulness. Let guardians be better at single target fights and SK's at multi mob encounters, but making some tanks second class citizens is stupid and so very Kunark. No one wants to level a class they love only to bench it because they arn't the only one of six warrior classes that actually live up to their initial concept as a tank. Heck, i'd love to see the brawlers more viable as tanks too.</blockquote>While I agree that all the tanks should be roughly equal at tanking...I do not think using single target =vs= AOE is the way to do it. That by definition would make the tanks not equal especially in TSO where its all AE. There is no way they will ever equal out AE -vs- Single....one is the superset and superior to the other. You cant make a AE specialist that sucks at hold aggro on a single mob...just doesn't make sense. But as can be seen by the current design you can have a single target specialist that sucks at holding aggro on multiples.To me being equal means being able to serve as MT irregardless of the content...just using different means, tools, etc.They need to find a better measure to balance the fighters too.Also they need to look at Group and Raids as completely different things. As tanks our roles in a group are nowhere near the same as in a raid. Pretty much everything that gives a Guard an edge on raids becomes insignificant in group content.

TuinalOfTheNexus

12-24-2008, 11:50 PM

The quick fix imo, would be to add to the self STA buff a 20% stoneskin proc, or possibly a ~2k ward proc, that only triggers if the damage is less than 30-40% (at M1) of the Guardian's health. This would be insignificant on raids (where the class still has a niche), but would give Guards a clear survivability edge against heroic and solo content to balance their sub-par DPS and utility.It would make Guards more likely to survive room pulling, but they'd still do less DPS than any other plate tank when pulling large amounts of mobs. The way to balance the Guard class in an AE scenario is to give it the survivability to pull larger numbers of encounters at once than other tanks could reasonably survive, letting the AE DPS classes in the group put out more damage. At the moment Adrenaline is far, far better for this than anything in a Guardian's arsenal for this purpose and that seems wrong - I don't begrudge Zerkers or SKs their AE DPS but the problem is they have equal or better survivability.I mean I'd take, even prefer, more personal AE DPS instead (changing ripostes to do significant DPS might be a way to go), but if the goal is still to make the Guardian class a very defensive one then we need to be noticably tougher than other tanks when room pulling, so our lower personal DPS is balanced by the potential for more group DPS.

Salarionn

12-29-2008, 08:40 PM

<cite>TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:</cite><blockquote>The quick fix imo, would be to add to the self STA buff a 20% stoneskin proc, or possibly a ~2k ward proc, that only triggers if the damage is less than 30-40% (at M1) of the Guardian's health. This would be insignificant on raids (where the class still has a niche), but would give Guards a clear survivability edge against heroic and solo content to balance their sub-par DPS and utility.It would make Guards more likely to survive room pulling, but they'd still do less DPS than any other plate tank when pulling large amounts of mobs. The way to balance the Guard class in an AE scenario is to give it the survivability to pull larger numbers of encounters at once than other tanks could reasonably survive, letting the AE DPS classes in the group put out more damage. At the moment Adrenaline is far, far better for this than anything in a Guardian's arsenal for this purpose and that seems wrong - I don't begrudge Zerkers or SKs their AE DPS but the problem is they have equal or better survivability.I mean I'd take, even prefer, more personal AE DPS instead (changing ripostes to do significant DPS might be a way to go), but if the goal is still to make the Guardian class a very defensive one then we need to be noticably tougher than other tanks when room pulling, so our lower personal DPS is balanced by the potential for more group DPS.</blockquote> umm the problem with Guards isnt survivablity, the problem is in generation of agro since they nerf'd DPS for fighters and unlike every other fighter class, there is no way for us to make up for it. The joke is that we get more snap agro tools to make up for our lack of being able to hold it. I think this is clearly a joke. This in a nut shell says this, You guys certainly do and will suck at keeping agro, but hey you get snap agro tools to get it back. Then we are told that tanks shouldnt be required to need other classes to hold agro and a week or two later its, YOU GUYS ARE FINE, you have snap agro tools, take a dirge or coercer with you and you will be ok. We just sit here waiting and waiting for word on whats going to be changed/fixed with us and what do we get ....................................SILENCE!!!! Way to go, i guess we are just the red headed step child now and dont deserve any answers or fixes to our problems.

Taharn

12-30-2008, 05:45 PM

Even doing DPS agro is still bouncing. I'm pulling 7k zone wides and taunting my butt off spreading out reinforcement, snearing assault, cry of the warrior, and sentinel strike. Something just don't seem right with the hate atm.

RafaelSmith

01-01-2009, 05:16 PM

<cite>Taharn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Something just don't seem right with the hate atm.</blockquote>Yes there is.I have about decided to simply bench the Guardian. Love the "idea" of the class but its simply too frustrating to not excel at anything.I can't even keep aggro on a single target against other fighters. Once ive used my 4 snap aggro abilities I might as well have a seat, watch the fight and admire my surviveabilty =P.Will wait and see what round #2 brings...but I am not really expecting much considering the direction they are taking with the game overall. There just isnt room in this game for what I would call the "traditional" tank class.When I came back to EQ2 I wanted to be a tank..nothing more. I obviously rolled the wrong class.

TuinalOfTheNexus

01-01-2009, 10:55 PM

<cite>Taharn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even doing DPS agro is still bouncing. I'm pulling 7k zone wides and taunting my butt off spreading out reinforcement, snearing assault, cry of the warrior, and sentinel strike. Something just don't seem right with the hate atm.</blockquote>In case you don't already know, the trash in YIS memwipes and the aggro bouncing is meant as an intended feature (presumably to make extra tanks more useful on trash; although since there's so little trash it serves more as an annoyance).If you're parsing 7k ZW in palace and still losing aggro on trash though, you need to tell the other tanks to stop randomly hitting their aggro snaps, because there's no reasonable way you could/should lose aggro with that level of DPS.

YummiOger

03-24-2009, 11:31 AM

Well the Tank changes have been completely ditched and undone on Test Server. They are again starting from the "ground up" with heavy input from the Community, which SOE has admittidly ignored per the Developers Letter last month.So lets get to feedbacking on what needs to happen, the right way.IMO, Tanks do need more self reliance on Hate generation, but not to the extremes SOE first proposed it. Threat Generation / Survivability/ DPS / Utility all need to be balanced thruout the fighter archtype.Good things for Guardians to see IMO.1) PLZ PLZ put the Guardian Mythical on the same level as the other fighter weapons? it needs a Threat Component just like every other fighter's.2) Increase, maby even Double, all threat producing abilities Guadians have. the current values are horriably underpowered for the Level and Context of gameplay. Literally, I auto-attack in 1 swing for more hate per sec then both of my primary Threat CAs combined.3) Slightly buff the Guardian TSO tree with some more useful abilities. Like a +2%mit/crit mit per rank Guardian line.4) Slightly increase survivability of the Guardian Class. Maby 1 more Stoneskin/reposte ability for those O CRAP moments.In General, the Guardian class could use more aggro generation and a Boost in survivability. I would be happy with that.

Rahatmattata

03-25-2009, 01:05 AM

IMO they should just undo the GU50 changes pertaining to warriors and the guardian mythical epic weapon, and nerf shadowknights a bit (not go overboard).Then I believe things would be fairly balanced between plate fighters, and brawlers can still farm plat and go places solo noone else can and tank some stuff and dps too. Well, maybe brawlers need a little love but meh. Mine is mostly just a plat farming toon.

Yimway

03-27-2009, 05:36 PM

<cite>Taharn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even doing DPS agro is still bouncing. I'm pulling 7k zone wides and taunting my butt off spreading out reinforcement, snearing assault, cry of the warrior, and sentinel strike. Something just don't seem right with the hate atm.</blockquote>I'm finding in addition to the 6-7k dps, I need JoA and levi belt procs to reinforce aggro. I'm also running MT group with coercer, dirge, and swash for hate buffing.However, the SK can do this with less support classes, do more dps, and maintain better ST aggro.Soon as I finish gearing my SK, the guard is benched.

YummiOger

04-17-2009, 10:51 AM

They still are looking into tank balance so i repeat.Guards need an increase in survivability, Mythical Reveiwed, and a small bump in aggro generation.1) TSO end line ability that is +1% Crit mit and +1% to all worn armor mitigation, per rank. Total of +5%/+5%2) Mythical should generate 25% of a stone skin into Hate. or Increase the Proc chance of Sentinal Sphere by 100%.3) Double all numeric threat values for Guardians on any ability that has that effect. its not DPS, its just threat. Also Sentenal Strike and Cry of the Warrior should land more often.And why are we creating a totally new system for tank threat mechanics? if thats still the goal? Just use something already in game? have threat crit off Melee Crit? use Melee Crit, its already there? the changes once perposed were headed in the right direction but were too heavy handed. A small adjustment in damage output and a moderate increase in standard threat generation is all that is needed. not all that crazy stuff that was scrapped.We run with 3 and sometimes 4 fighter classes in raids now-a-days and thats perfectly fine and prolly as it should be. the Raid content of 1 or 2 tanks r over IMO. 3 fighters = our standard build.Reestablish what u want a Fighter to do, then slightly adgjust them there. and BTW, the Argument of AE tanks VS Single Target tank is flawed logic.