Raid leader says Rangers un needed class???

[Silkmyst]

Hi all,I'm in a casual raiding guild, but we are moving up and doing well imo.  We have cleared PR and most of Kor Sha.As the guild grows so has our supply of dirges, illusionists, etc.  which is great.   We have a lot of healers and Ithink we are pretty balanced at this point overall.I play casually, but have worked extremely hard with the help of this forum and the many excellent raiding rangers,to get my parse up near the top most raids, even when most times I am dumped in the last group with the left overs(say 3 rangers, one healer, one bruiser, one SK).The other night I was grouped with a dirge, and was top on the parse zone wide.My question is this, apparently our raid leader told one of the other rangers that we were an "un needed" class,as we didn't help any other class with buffs, and can only DPS.He said we'd be rotated out in favor of more needed classes.  I think there are only 3 rangers total actively playingin the guild, and probably more like 2 raiding.What are the high end guilds doing?Silk

[Ranja]

<cite>Silkmyst wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hi all,I'm in a casual raiding guild, but we are moving up and doing well imo.  We have cleared PR and most of Kor Sha.As the guild grows so has our supply of dirges, illusionists, etc.  which is great.   We have a lot of healers and Ithink we are pretty balanced at this point overall.I play casually, but have worked extremely hard with the help of this forum and the many excellent raiding rangers,to get my parse up near the top most raids, even when most times I am dumped in the last group with the left overs(say 3 rangers, one healer, one bruiser, one SK).The other night I was grouped with a dirge, and was top on the parse zone wide.My question is this, apparently our raid leader told one of the other rangers that we were an "un needed" class,as we didn't help any other class with buffs, and can only DPS.He said we'd be rotated out in favor of more needed classes.  I think there are only 3 rangers total actively playingin the guild, and probably more like 2 raiding.What are the high end guilds doing?Silk</blockquote>Your raid leader needs to get a clue.High end guilds currently raid with at least one ranger. Why? Currently, rangers top the parse on most named (which is when it really matters). We have the best aggro control of all scouts, can safely do damage from range (if need be) and avoid most damage shields. These are things most  names require (jousting, damage shields).Rangers when put in the right group (meaning same group as the other scouts) will top the parse along with assassins. Being - Illy, Dirge, Healer, Brig, Zerk, Ranger (or another scout instead of zerk). Yeah if you are put in the short bus group you wont parse that high but neither will any class stuck in that group. It is a self fullfilling prophecy that ranges are useless if we get dumped in the extra group all the time.You certainly don't need 3 raiding at one time but at least one is helpful and two wont kill ya. Rangers are the workhouse of the DPS scouts. Yeah we dont parse super high on trash like assassins but we are always higher on nameds and because of this are usually pretty competitive on the ZW as well. In the top 3.Ask him this? Who else is more needed? An assassin out of the MT group is about as useful as a ranger since they cant use their hate transfer on the MT.If you have all 3 wanted to raid the same night, I can see 2 getting bumped for more utility or healers. There should always be room for at least one well played ranger.

[dbmoreland]

<p>Your raid leader is correct; Rangers specifically are not a "needed" class. They can't heal, they can't tank, and they can't buff others. They are just another DPS class. OTOH a raid needs some number of DPS players, whatever class they are. And a smart raid leader will put the best DPS players in his raid. Now if it turns out that the best 6 DPS players all play rangers, then he will use 6 rangers. Because he would rather have 6 rangers all doing 5K dps than a mix of dps classes averaging 3K. Otherwise his raids deserve to crash and burn. So if you are on top of the parse zone wide and on all the names, you should have no problem getting a spot on the raid. However if your #3 ranger is 1000 dps below the other dps classes that want to come on the raid, then he will not be getting a spot, nor frankly should he. </p><p>I have said it before and I will say it again, it is NOT about the specific class, it is about the specific player. Yes, ideally you would like to have certain classes in certain spots in your raid. But if I have the choice between 24 excellent players playing a "sub-par" mix of classes and 24 "sub-par" players playing the "ideal" mix of classes, I will take the excellent players every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Because I will have a LOT more fun and be able to deal with a lot more content with excellent players than I can with "ideal" classes. </p><p>And by the way, this holds for ANY class. The raid only needs a curtain number of tanks. You take the best and leave the rest behind. If the best tank class player happens to play an SK then he is the MT, even if there is another player who plays a Guardian, but plays him poorly. Because what would you rather have, an SK MT that knows the zone like the back of their hand, knows how to pull every single mob flawlessly and sticks the mob exactly where he says he will and it NEVER moves from there, or a Guardian that has to be told every single move to make, that pulls the entire room full of mobs half the time and can't position and hold a mob to save his life (much less the raids)? I have been in raids with both and I will tell you, I had a lot more fun with the SK than I did with the Guard. Rangers and other DPS classes are no different. I have seen Rangers that can put out 5K dps and others than cannot make 2K. I have seen the same thing from assassins, brigs, wizards, conj and every other "DPS" class. Some are good, some are not. The good ones get to raid, the others get to solo.</p>

[Corwinus]

<cite>Silkmyst wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hi all,I'm in a casual raiding guild, but we are moving up and doing well imo.  We have cleared PR and most of Kor Sha.As the guild grows so has our supply of dirges, illusionists, etc.  which is great.   We have a lot of healers and Ithink we are pretty balanced at this point overall.I play casually, but have worked extremely hard with the help of this forum and the many excellent raiding rangers,to get my parse up near the top most raids, even when most times I am dumped in the last group with the left overs(say 3 rangers, one healer, one bruiser, one SK).The other night I was grouped with a dirge, and was top on the parse zone wide.My question is this, apparently our raid leader told one of the other rangers that we were an "un needed" class,as we didn't help any other class with buffs, and can only DPS.He said we'd be rotated out in favor of more needed classes.  I think there are only 3 rangers total actively playingin the guild, and probably more like 2 raiding.What are the high end guilds doing?Silk</blockquote><p>Hey Silk,</p><p>We have the same proportion of Raiding Rangers in our guild about 3, and consistant in raid, about 2. </p><p>The difference is that our guild leader will never say that a class is un-needed, why? Just because he is too smart for that an he knows that every class bring something to the table in the encounters SOE throws at us.  To be more specific, take VP, there are a lot of bosses there where we are much appreciated :</p><p>- Druushk : can take care of a statue clicky AND dps the adds though the MA because of our long range</p><p>- Taskmaster Nichok : Range fight, we do not have to get the AOE, our dps is pretty high and steady there</p><p>- the new Mylex Vioren : can just be in the middle like a turret and shoot at whatever thing pops up intead of running around , particularly interesting by the end of the fight.</p><p>- Travenro the Skygazer : Range fight....</p><p>and I can go on and on. Why are we appreciated ? Just because our dps is steady and we have many ways to control our aggro. </p><p>Make your raid leader study the parse : we may not be on top on every fight (prolly 5th or 6th behind Wizzys, Assassins, ... but zone wide we may be 3rd. why ? because we die less. So which raid leader will not want what we bring to the table ? Maybe only short sighted ones. </p><p>In our guild, we are proud of the fact that we left no class behind, I can not see any class that does not have its Mythical now for example, I think that it is our way to say that we can beat the content all together, with our class diversity.</p><p>Not even mentionning the fact that we have people from all over the place  (Australia, China, US, England, Netherlands, France, Russia, ....), so we are also very diverse in the real world.  </p><p>lt Maybe a time for you to look for  new horizons Bro.</p><p>Corwin. Cotw. Oasis</p>

[Wades]

Your raid leader is right.With Mythical Rangers don't fight much at range and use their melee's CAs. That's for the 'myth' of the Ranged Ranger.The more your raid becomes specialized, the less open spots you've got for a zero-utility class. Rangers are not the only class in this situation.There might always be a spot for a ranger (often in the 'mage' group, where our tempo group buff benefits nearly noone), but well if you are a raid leader, you will take other classes first for some of their 'utilities'.I also like the ZW comments of OPs, nearly meaning: Raid Leader says, 'ok, first your are not in the raid for trashs/nameds where your dps sucks, but I will take you in for <insert named mob here>'. My main was my ranger, my main is now my defiler :p because some days your raid leader stops asking you to join the raid for 'just one named'. p

[Ranja]

<cite>Wades wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your raid leader is right.With Mythical Rangers don't fight much at range and use their melee's CAs. That's for the 'myth' of the Ranged Ranger.The more your raid becomes specialized, the less open spots you've got for a zero-utility class. Rangers are not the only class in this situation.There might always be a spot for a ranger (often in the 'mage' group, where our tempo group buff benefits nearly noone), but well if you are a raid leader, you will take other classes first for some of their 'utilities'.I also like the ZW comments of OPs, nearly meaning: Raid Leader says, 'ok, first your are not in the raid for trashs/nameds where your dps sucks, but I will take you in for '. My main was my ranger, my main is now my defiler :p because some days your raid leader stops asking you to join the raid for 'just one named'. p</blockquote>I am sorry but this is a clueless post.Mythical rangers ( all rangers) sit at the sweet spot in raid which is 3-5 meters away. In order to do max DPS, all rangers must use their melee CAS. I ahve no idea where your first sentence is coming from.Look if you can top the parse, no matter what DPS class you are, you will have a spot. In every raid, there is room for at least 4-5 pure DPS classes. If you are in the top 5, you will get a spot. If you raid leader is keeping you out of the raid even when you top the parse in a good group, because of some preconceived notion that rangers are useless, your raid leader needs to get a clue. Consider a standard raid group:MTGuardTempDEfilerSwash/AssassinCoercerDirgeOTZerkHealerHealerDirgeIllyAss assin/SwashG3HealerDirgeIllyBrigDPSDPSG4TroubIllyHealerD PSDPSDPSIf you cant get in one of these spots, you need to work on your character. Oh and ZW is what matters. If you are parsing in the top 3 ZW then you are a needed DPS class. What I was referring to was assassins insanely hgh trash parse that make peopel think assassins are king.  But in actuality we are quite even on the ZW.

[Boramyr]

<p>Honestly alot of what folks think are needed and not needed and works and doesn't work in Raids is bunk.  Our raid force isn't the most efficient possible roster but its good people.  I'd be happy to talk to your raid leader sometime one raid leader to another to find out why he thinks what he thinks.  </p><p>We got a bit of a late start in this expansion due to a two month period where we lost a full group from our raid force and have beaten everything instanced but Byzola in this expansion and Byzola isn't far off.  </p><p>MTBerzerkerCoercerDirgeTemplarDefilerWarden</p><p>OTGuardianDirgeTemplarDefilerAssassinBrigand</p><p>DPS1RangerCoercerMysticTroubadorMonkSwashbuckler</p><p>DPS2AssassinIllusionistFury or Inquisitor TroubadorShadowknightWizard</p>

[Wades]

It's only my opinion .)To fill your dps slots, Wizards, Warlocks, Conjurors & Necros are good candidats every single one bringing some utility. You can add brawlers for another altruism and raidwide buff or swash/brig for some more debuffs on targets (that way you are improving the overall raid dps).A ranger brings the slightest impact on raid stability, the classes above do add something to your raid. Currently my ranger can't compete with the other dps in my guild due to under-equipement I may get when main toons will be stuffed. Rangers are not useless, they can solo ok (not in overcrowded dungeons), they are fine in groups but are often filling the last spot in raids.

[Ranja]

<cite>Wades wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's only my opinion .)To fill your dps slots, Wizards, Warlocks, Conjurors & Necros are good candidats every single one bringing some utility. You can add brawlers for another altruism and raidwide buff or swash/brig for some more debuffs on targets (that way you are improving the overall raid dps).A ranger brings the slightest impact on raid stability, the classes above do add something to your raid. Currently my ranger can't compete with the other dps in my guild due to under-equipement I may get when main toons will be stuffed. Rangers are not useless, they can solo ok (not in overcrowded dungeons), they are fine in groups but are often filling the last spot in raids.</blockquote>Conjies and Necros are useless on raids in RoK. The utility they bring is not enough to overcome the DPS loss you will realize.  Power is not a problem and they are no where near the DPS of Assassins, Rangers, Brigs and Swashies. One monk is all you need anymore and you are wasting slots especially if you are taking the slot away from a true DPS class to give to a second brawler.Brig/Swashie debuffs do not stack so more than one is often a waste. Two brigs might be nice for continous dispatch.

[Boramyr]

<cite>Wades wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's only my opinion .)To fill your dps slots, Wizards, Warlocks, Conjurors & Necros are good candidats every single one bringing some utility. You can add brawlers for another altruism and raidwide buff or swash/brig for some more debuffs on targets (that way you are improving the overall raid dps).A ranger brings the slightest impact on raid stability, the classes above do add something to your raid. Currently my ranger can't compete with the other dps in my guild due to under-equipement I may get when main toons will be stuffed. Rangers are not useless, they can solo ok (not in overcrowded dungeons), they are fine in groups but are often filling the last spot in raids.</blockquote><p>Wades I hate to say it but your opinion of rangers is flat out wrong.  In two posts you've bashed our class to the bottom of the wrung but have provided evidence of not knowing the mechanics of a proper ranger DPS playstyle and have admitted that your own alt is undergeared.   </p><p>I really hate to say this but you are also missing a point.  Its real nice to have all these classes with Utility.  Buffs and Debuffs are a kind of utility I translate into what is called Potential DPS.  Potential DPS needs someone to translate that into Actual DPS.  This is where the Ranger, Assassin, Warlock, and Wizard come in.  What we do is translate that potential into the actual parse numbers and its a very Symbiotic relationship.  Buffs are only good if you have people to maximize them and These classes are only good if they have enough of the right buffs.  </p><p>Now each of those four classes have a specialty.  </p><p>Rangers -  Joust fights most named all things equal ranger always tops the parse.  The most dps when it counts the least utility.</p><p>Assassins - Trash mobs or short fights.  They are in a league all their own here.  Slightly more utility than a ranger.</p><p>Warlock -  AoE fights I admit its been so long since I've had one in my raidforce because i have two assassins that are really good people. I don't know enough about utility</p><p>Wizard - Well these guys are kinda the generic they do good in AoE decent on Trash and good on Named. Kind of the Arcane middle ground.  Also has much better utility than the Predator.</p>

[Skratttt]

My question is why the hell would i want a conjy or necro when a well geared illy brings soo much more utility and almost same dps if not more played right???rangers are solid class with a few things that annoy me (yay for useless CA's in raid)... in the right group we do nice nice dmg... we are realy buff dependant but once correctly buffed/geared we do really well

[Gaige]

<cite>Wades wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's only my opinion .)To fill your dps slots, Wizards, Warlocks, Conjurors & Necros are good candidats every single one bringing some utility. You can add brawlers for another altruism and raidwide buff or swash/brig for some more debuffs on targets (that way you are improving the overall raid dps).A ranger brings the slightest impact on raid stability, the classes above do add something to your raid. Currently my ranger can't compete with the other dps in my guild due to under-equipement I may get when main toons will be stuffed. Rangers are not useless, they can solo ok (not in overcrowded dungeons), they are fine in groups but are often filling the last spot in raids.</blockquote>Summoners and brawlers over rangers for dps slots?  Oh, you're obviously joking.  I think the problem is that a lot of rangers WW just simply aren't good at playing the class and therefore don't do enough dps over classes they should outright destroy (summoners, brawlers, most rogues).  So raid leaders don't bring them.  If you're doing the numbers the class is capable of, any raid would want at least one. <div></div><div>Three rangers is always overkill imo, however.</div>