Should Mythical be left in hardcore raid guilds or not?

[Nero]

I have enjoyed pick up raids.But I have never heard that someone got Mythical with pick up raid.Of course, I don't have Mythical.I know that Mythical epic weapon is intended for raid.But isn't it unreasonable that we can't get Mythical with pick up raid?At least I think so.I don't have enough time to play in a hardcore raid guild.It must be hard that even players in casual raid guilds get Mythical.Should Mythical be left in hardcore raid guilds or not?

[steelbadger]

Yes.  They should be left in hardcore raid guilds.I don't have my mythical and I doubt I will get it at any point in the near future but sometimes there has to be something to strive for.  Mythicals are awesome items and, sure, I would love to have mine but if I can't do the content required to get one then I don't need the weapon.  No-one running instances or PR pickup raids every night needs their mythical.Leave them as they are, those who do the work to get them deserve them, I am not going to advocate that we cheapen their achievement because we want quick thrills.

[Mithi]

<p>No, Mythicals shouldn't be only for harcdcore guilds.</p><p>Why should it?</p><p>@Steelbadger,you said leave them to those guilds cause they work for it to get myths.</p><p>But anyone who want the myths work for it, or am i seeing that wrong.</p><p>Offcourse you can buy a guild, like they do on our server for helping you get yours, thats not in the least fair, but gives people, the change doing or getting it.</p><p>Not that im a favour of that, will never be, game should be helping each other out.</p><p>If it is now for myths or just a simple quest.</p><p>But hey don't shoot me, thats just my 2 cents.</p><p>So again, NO Myths shouldnt be for hardcoreguilds alone!!</p>

[rapier99]

Agreed @steelbadgerLeave the mythicals as they are. It gives the hardcore raiders something they have achieved in the game that is not achievable without their dedication to raiding.And no, I'm not a raider that just want to protect his achievement. I mostly duo with my wife so I'll never have a mythical but hey, that was the way I choose to play the game and that price I'm happy to pay.

[uberpaco]

<p>I am a casual player and I will never own a mythical weapon.</p><p>As it looks now the mythical is the new fable and the fable is the new legendary. SadlyThose who makes the efford have earned it, people who doesn't make the efford (like me) shouldn't have them.</p><p>Why on earth should you be able to get everything in a game just cause you play it, everything isn't for every playstyle.</p><p><cite>Mithi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>but anyone who want the myths work for it, or am i seeing that wrong.</blockquote><p>You just don't work as hard, yeah I know a lot of the people in a raid just tag a long. but that doesn't mean mythical should be easier to get.</p><p><cite>Nero wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>But isn't it unreasonable that we can't get Mythical with pick up raid?</blockquote><p>Why can't you get mythical in a pick up raid, I  might not have all the information of what is needed to get the mythical (haven't bothered as its so far away for me), but what exactly is the problem.(not trying to sound smug here, just looking for info)</p>

[Thunderthyze]

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes.  They should be left in hardcore raid guilds.I don't have my mythical and I doubt I will get it at any point in the near future but sometimes there has to be something to strive for.  Mythicals are awesome items and, sure, I would love to have mine but if I can't do the content required to get one then I don't need the weapon.  No-one running instances or PR pickup raids every night needs their mythical.Leave them as they are, those who do the work to get them deserve them, I am not going to advocate that we cheapen their achievement because we want quick thrills.</blockquote><p>Ratty speaks teh truth!</p><p>I know there are those who want to subscribe, type /claim and obtain everything available in game but there comes a time when you have to slap those people down and tell them "NO"....if you want to achieve something, work for it and put in the time to deserve it.</p><p>And no, I don't have my mythical either.</p>

[Feydakeen]

<p>You already don't have to be in a hardcore raid guild to get these. I have my mythical and we worked hard for it, but we only raid 3 times a week, don't have attendance policies and surely can't raid contested. So it can be done and is already done alot by semi-casual guilds. Give 60 extra AApoints in next expansion, and even better loot in group instances and it could be done by LOTS of guilds without problem, it just needs some focus and dedication and lots of wipes. </p>

[Illine]

<p>mythicals are not for hardcore raiding guilds. they are for guilds who have enough people to clean VP.</p><p>If your pick up is good enough to go to VP, you'll have your mythical. It will just take more time. </p><p>Mythicals are a reward for killing some of the most powerfull mobs in RoK to help you kill trakanon and other big boss in this add on.</p><p>anyway, you have to understand that people who take time and effort to log everyday, wipe 20 times a night to kill a mob want a reward worth the effort. I don't say casuals don't for what they get. But raiding is not always fun. let's face it, when you wipe the whole night not being able to kill a mob and see his life only going down to 90%, you can easilly get discouraged. those mythical rewards give a goal. Like "we have to kill him to get that" and shouldn't be an easy task.</p><p>casual gamers must accept the fact they won't have their mythical or it will take more time to get it. because to move to VP you need a good and present raid force.</p><p>if you want to have the mythical, you have to go though all the journey, which means T1 mobs, then T2, then leviathan then VP. if you casuals could have the mythicals too easily, HC gamers would whine and then get something even stronger and harder to get. It's a bit about pride. but HCG or raiders do take time in front of a computer they don't take with friends or familly, and if SOE want to keep them happy, it has to give them not everybody will have so that they can walk in Norrath full of pride with people being amazed by their equipment. </p><p>Just like real life, if you do a 10h/day job which also gives you a lot of work and make you travel around the world, you want something to motivate you. If you have the same advantages and salary as a guy who sit 6h a day in front of his desk doing nothing, what's the point of doing a tiring job (if you're not passionate)? It's a game but SOE has to keep subscribers, and if doing heroic content gives you as good things as epic content, then HC gamers will leave this game for another where time and effort means something.</p><p>the boss of a worldwide known firm wants a bigger car than a postman because his work demands more time and effort. same here, a HC gamer wants a bigger weapon than a casual raider.</p><p>the journey is half the fun ^^</p>

[Kizee]

<p>You are kidding right?</p><p>SoE made the fabled ones for the not so hardcore people.</p><p>Quit being jealous and setting your goals so high if you don't have the time to put in to get your mythical.</p>

[Illine]

<cite>uberpaco wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am a casual player and I will never own a mythical weapon.</p><p>As it looks now the mythical is the new fable and the fable is the new legendary. SadlyThose who makes the efford have earned it, people who doesn't make the efford (like me) shouldn't have them.</p><p>Why on earth should you be able to get everything in a game just cause you play it, everything isn't for every playstyle.</p><p><cite>Mithi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>but anyone who want the myths work for it, or am i seeing that wrong.</blockquote><p>You just don't work as hard, yeah I know a lot of the people in a raid just tag a long. but that doesn't mean mythical should be easier to get.</p><p><cite>Nero wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>But isn't it unreasonable that we can't get Mythical with pick up raid?</blockquote><p><b>Why can't you get mythical in a pick up raid, I  might not have all the information of what is needed to get the mythical (haven't bothered as its so far away for me), but what exactly is the problem.(not trying to sound smug here, just looking for info)</b></p></blockquote><p>because usually in pick up raids the intendance is not the same as in guild raids. you hardly have a constant roaster and people get demotivated rather quickly. plus you work hard and the boss drops one loot, maybe two, so 24 people work hard and only one is rewarded. one that may not show up again.</p><p>raid is about 24 people who work together. you can work as hard as you want, in a fight like venril or in VP, everybody has to be focus, and it's sometimes hard to have that in a guild, even harder in a PUR.</p>

[Faenril]

There is no reason you get a mythical if you don't raid end game content, simply because you don't need it. Raid gear is better because better gear is needed for raiding <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. All content up to VP (included) gets trivial when your raiders wield mythicals. Mythicals are a reward for the hours put working on the mobs, as well as a tool to attempt even harder encounters later, like Trak or avatars. Unless you are pulling the mobs past the ones granting mythicals, you don't need mythicals (probably you don't desserve them either). Many ppl I know IRL earn more money than me, have a bigger car & all ... You know what ? I don't envy them, because for the most part it means they spend more time at work/have a tougher or less interesting job. For the most part they DESSERVE to earn more, as they put more effort. I consider I'm rewarded a different way (by having more time to spend on eq2 for instance :p).

[Triste-Lune]

non hardcore players should only be wearing mastercraft and a bit of legendary at best. hardcore players should be able to attain fabled gear, and only the best of the hardcore players should receive mythical. for all of you casual player you already have the fabled epic, stop wanting more than what you deserved, and dont bring the "but i pay the same monthly fee" argument as it s not a valid one : i dont craft but i pay the same monthly fee, i should be able to craft LVL80 gear too or to be a tinkerer/muter just like the ones who *gasp* decide to put effort into crafting.

[Nero]

<p>I'm jealous of T3 guild hall, which a lot of players may not be able to have, as well as I'm jealous of Mythical.</p><p>Why does SOE emphasize hardcore gamers?</p>

[Faenril]

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Why does SOE emphasize hardcore gamers?</p></blockquote>Hardcore gamers may argue that SOE made change after change to make the game more friendly to casual gamers since 2 years.When will it be enough ?From a finuncial point of view, hardcore gamers tend to hook with a product for longer, as they invested much more time in their toons, which is also interesting for SOE.

[Ragecaller]

<p>EQ2 contains many features that HC gamers consider "useless fluff". Housing being the foremost. The only reason they may have to set up a T3 guild hall is prestige. </p><p>Conversely, there is content that players will never experience if they don't get a group of people around them dedicated to instance raiding. That is not just monsters, but also the tiers of equipment that drop solely to give HC players a form of progression.</p><p>Just as the game shouldn't be changed in any way that will make it less casual friendly, or reduce the ways in which RP is supported in the game, just so should it be accepted that there are apsects of the game that require serious dedication to even see. Much less get loot from.</p><p>Please respect that this game offers something for everyone, and that just as not all of its content is suitable to a HC player, neither is all content accessible to non HC players. Mythicals are not made to make solo farming of named mobs easier or just mount in your home, they are tools for upper end game encounters. Demanding stuff that belongs to an aspect you do not wish to engage in(and by wishing i mean dedicating the time and resources needed to do so just like just wishing for a hotrod won't give you one if you don't slave in your garage making one) is utterly unreasonable.</p><p>And my highest level char is around 23, so i am definetely speaking as a casual player!</p>

[Kizee]

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm jealous of T3 guild hall, which a lot of players may not be able to have, as well as I'm jealous of Mythical.</p><p>Why does SOE emphasize hardcore gamers?</p></blockquote>So 2 things in the whole game that are out of reach for you..... ohhh nooooos! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Feydakeen]

<p>Although I have mythical and will have T3 guildhall access.....</p><p>I still want avatar loot dropping from solo mobs pls 1111!!!!1!!1!!!!!</p>

[gi]

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm jealous of T3 guild hall, which a lot of players may not be able to have, as well as I'm jealous of Mythical.</p><p>Why does SOE emphasize hardcore gamers?</p></blockquote><p>I don't believe SoE specifically caters for HC raiders. they are Less than 5% of the population, probably lower. HC raiders would like SoE to cater for them exclusively i'm sure,  But SoE try to give a balance of content for everyone.. Of course you can't please all the people all the time and some would say that RoK catered too much to the Solo player.</p><p>I don't have my mythical, and am still slowly working on getting my normal Epic. I am not in a big hurry personally, it will still be there. I may never see this tiny amount of the game world(Rok Raid content), then again I may. Plenty else for me to do. Let the Hardcore raiders have there Mythical. </p>

[M0rticia]

Mythicals should be left exactly as they are. They are a reward for guilds and people that put forth the massive effort to get them. They should not be handed out to everyone on the server. They are quite an accomplishment. I know some guilds (not mine) that will charge players to get them their mythical. You could always go that route if you feel you need it and your current guild can't get through the raid content.Otherwise, you really need to get used to the idea that if your guild can't get through this content, you probably don't need the weapon anyway. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You can get your fabled and do just fine.If you aren't part of a raiding guild, you just need to accept the fact that there is content you will never see and gear you will never own. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.With as much catering to casual players/small guilds/small groups as Sony does (and there's nothing wrong with that!), there needs to be some content/gear that is solely for raiding guilds. I actually think Sony has a pretty decent balance of content for raiding guilds and small guilds/groups/solo players. It's not perfect but it's pretty good. The mythical weapons...well, they are fine the way they are. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />In case you're wondering, no, I don't have mine yet. I am in a large raiding guild and we're close to clearing that content. We raid three nights a week, we die a lot testing strategies and we have a BLAST doing it! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> When we finally get it cleared, the reward will be even sweeter because of the effort put forth by a number of people in my guild. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Getting a Mythical weapon shouldn't be easy.

[Femke]

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>non hardcore players should only be wearing mastercraft and a bit of legendary at best. hardcore players should be able to attain fabled gear, and only the best of the hardcore players should receive mythical. </blockquote>Oh my.... then I better destroy the fabled stuff that <b>I earned</b> on the raiding I do every now and then...What a nonsense... I am working on my mythical and with the help of good friends and some friendly people I will get it. And in the end I will have work just as hard for it then any hardcore player of any hardcore guild... maybe I even have worked harder for it in the end, because I cannot fall back on a hardcore guild behind me!!!Femke.

[Illine]

<cite>Rlaal@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm jealous of T3 guild hall, which a lot of players may not be able to have, as well as I'm jealous of Mythical.</p><p>Why does SOE emphasize hardcore gamers?</p></blockquote><p>I don't believe SoE specifically caters for HC raiders. they are Less than 5% of the population, probably lower. HC raiders would like SoE to cater for them exclusively i'm sure,  But SoE try to give a balance of content for everyone.. Of course you can't please all the people all the time and some would say that RoK catered too much to the Solo player.</p><p>I don't have my mythical, and am still slowly working on getting my normal Epic. I am not in a big hurry personally, it will still be there. I may never see this tiny amount of the game world(Rok Raid content), then again I may. Plenty else for me to do. Let the Hardcore raiders have there Mythical. </p></blockquote><p>but more than 5% of the population got their mythicals.</p><p>In my server there are at least 10 guilds who managed to finish VP. Even more I think, but I don't know all their names.</p><p>mythicals are not for HC players only. They are just for people who can achieve this content. Whether you're HC or more casual. If you play only 3 nights a week but only raid in a guild, you may be able to get your mythicals. and 4 hours a night 3 nights a week is not HC to me.</p>

[Banditman]

The only important point is this:  If you aren't doing "hardcore" content, you don't need a Mythical weapon.  It really is that simple.Once you accept that you don't need it, you're left with two options if you still "want" it.1.  Join a guild that is doing that content at a pace you can live with.2.  Pay a hardcore guild to get the updates for you.

[Killerbee3000]

<p>8 guilds cleared vp on my server, only 1 of them is really hardcore, 2 are semi hc and the rest are pretty much casuals... </p><p>So where again is that mythicals for hc guilds only?</p>

[Hollyf]

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm jealous of T3 guild hall, which a lot of players may not be able to have, as well as I'm jealous of Mythical.</p><p>Why does SOE emphasize hardcore gamers?</p></blockquote><p>I think this is one of the common mistakes that those who are more of the casual playing-style gaming make about this game or honestly, any other game that offers 'above-average' stuff, (ie Fabled, Mythical items/Tier 3 Halls, et.) </p><p>Mythical/Fabled does not equal hardcore. It more or less equates to 24 people who wish to be challenged beyond normal gaming boundaries, (soloing, grouping instances, regular quests) by doing raiding on a regular schedule to clear raid zones and be rewarded with the satisfaction as well as item drops that do not come from just anywhere. You have guilds that raid 3x a week and guilds that raid above that. To point a finger at SOE and say that they favor 'hardcore' gamers is just so far off the mark; to me, you get what you put into the game. Im not saying those that are not a part of guilds that raid RoK, (or the two expansions before it) dont deserve anything because they do. The guilds that have cleared or working on clearing VP put serious effort into getting where they are just as they did by being able to purchase a Tier 3 Hall. </p><p>Again, Mythical does not equal hardcore nor does having a T3 Guild Hall. </p>

[Soulforged_Unre]

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm jealous of T3 guild hall, which a lot of players may not be able to have, as well as I'm jealous of Mythical.</p><p>Why does SOE emphasize hardcore gamers?</p></blockquote>I lol'd, very hard.SOE does as little as they can get away with for hardcore raiders.

[troodon]

<p>As a non-raider without his mythical I say leave it the hell alone.  There's no point in raiding if you hand the same crap over to non-raiders.</p><p>People need to quit whining.</p>

[Zarador]

<cite>troodon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As a non-raider without his mythical I say leave it the hell alone.  There's no point in raiding if you hand the same crap over to non-raiders.</p><p>People need to quit whining.</p></blockquote>  I say strike a balance....Just like so many "hardcore" complained that the questers had it too easy with RoK as they could quest their way to decent gear and levels, lets share the fun.  Make it so you have to do say a 75 part progression quest to get to the Mythical Quest, since we all been told that we should all have to go through the same hardships for rewards.Just kidding of course, but seriously, why worry about the Mythicals?  Like others have stated, either put in the effort or forget having the rewards.

[Rijacki]

<cite>Earar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rlaal@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm jealous of T3 guild hall, which a lot of players may not be able to have, as well as I'm jealous of Mythical.</p><p>Why does SOE emphasize hardcore gamers?</p></blockquote><p>I don't believe SoE specifically caters for HC raiders. they are Less than 5% of the population, probably lower. HC raiders would like SoE to cater for them exclusively i'm sure,  But SoE try to give a balance of content for everyone.. Of course you can't please all the people all the time and some would say that RoK catered too much to the Solo player.</p><p>I don't have my mythical, and am still slowly working on getting my normal Epic. I am not in a big hurry personally, it will still be there. I may never see this tiny amount of the game world(Rok Raid content), then again I may. Plenty else for me to do. Let the Hardcore raiders have there Mythical. </p></blockquote><p>but more than 5% of the population got their mythicals.</p><p>In my server there are at least 10 guilds who managed to finish VP. Even more I think, but I don't know all their names.</p><p>mythicals are not for HC players only. They are just for people who can achieve this content. Whether you're HC or more casual. If you play only 3 nights a week but only raid in a guild, you may be able to get your mythicals. and 4 hours a night 3 nights a week is not HC to me.</p></blockquote>Plus, the next expansion that launches in November won't have a level increase, but it will have more achievements and more gear.  While it will have more raid targets (not many, I know), the current targets in RoK will still be available.  Heck, even some of the targets in KoS and EoF still won't be grey either.  So... if the PUR can't get mythicals before the new expansion, they will have a better chance of doing so before the next level increase.There were many PUR and "causal" raiding guilds that couldn't finish off Death Toll (KoS) until after EoF launched.  But  they did so, and got their claymore rewards, when they got more powerful from the EoF achievements and loot.EVERYONE who puts in effort can get the items.  Some will just get them later than others.

[Vumael]

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have enjoyed pick up raids.But I have never heard that someone got Mythical with pick up raid.Of course, I don't have Mythical.I know that Mythical epic weapon is intended for raid.But isn't it unreasonable that we can't get Mythical with pick up raid?At least I think so.I don't have enough time to play in a hardcore raid guild.It must be hard that even players in casual raid guilds get Mythical.Should Mythical be left in hardcore raid guilds or not?</blockquote><p>Higher risk = Higher reward.</p><p>Casual Gamers shouldn't be able to get everything in the game easily, this isn't Diablo 2.</p><p>If you want a Mythical get a better guild or better pick up raid.</p><p>Seriously people stop trying to dummy up this game, it isn't that hard to begin with.</p>

[Laoch69]

<p>I am in a small guild and never Raid (done enough of that in previous mmo's), and I think that Mythical versions should be for the Raid minded folks only.</p><p>If all you do is group, or solo, why do you need a Mythical weapon?  The heroic version will do just as well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[feldon30]

Thanks we already have this topic: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=426185&post_id=4746359" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...post_id=4746359</a>

[interstellarmatter]

<cite>Laoch69 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am in a small guild and never Raid (done enough of that in previous mmo's), and I think that Mythical versions should be for the Raid minded folks only.</p><p>If all you do is group, or solo, why do you need a Mythical weapon?  The heroic version will do just as well <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>That's a good point.  My inquisitor has been happy with the fable version for months now.  I don't see a compelling reason to get the mythical one.  Not like there is an instance that can't be easily done with legendary gear and a heroic epic.  There is a point that gear starts to make content trivial.   SOE would be better off keeping the majority of players with heroics or at least nerfing mythicals before opening the floodgates to them.

[interstellarmatter]

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks we already have this topic:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=426185&post_id=4746359" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...post_id=4746359</a></blockquote>That thread is almost 2 months old.  Getting close to being on the necro list. 

[Yimway]

<cite>Laoch69 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am in a small guild and never Raid (done enough of that in previous mmo's), and I think that Mythical versions should be for the Raid minded folks only.</p><p>If all you do is group, or solo, why do you need a Mythical weapon?  The heroic version will do just as well <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>First off, let me say I agree with the majority of the thread, mythicals are a raid reward for putting in the time to get it.  I don't think it should be changed.However, let me play devils advocate to why you need/want a mythical when you don't raid.To put it bluntly, its cause your class is being ballanced and scaled based upon having that weapon.  So, for many classes with the upcomming changes, you would in effect get nerfed not having it.  There has been enough information leaked from the beta servers to understand why atleast some classes will feal they eat more of a nerf cause they don't have myth.I don't want to repeat the nda breaks here, so I wont get into details, but I can certainly see this as an arguement for wanting the Myth outside of raiding.

[Jesdyr]

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>First off, let me say I agree with the majority of the thread, mythicals are a raid reward for putting in the time to get it.  I don't think it should be changed.</blockquote>I put a lot of time into the game .. were is my reward?  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />     and yes, I think it is fine the way it is. No, I dont have my mythical (refuse to pay for it).

[Jovie]

<p>If you zerg it, they will come!!! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[zaneluke]

Leave mythicals for those that have the time and dedication to get them.

[feldon30]

<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks we already have this topic:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=426185&post_id=4746359" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...post_id=4746359</a></blockquote>That thread is almost 2 months old.  Getting close to being on the necro list. </blockquote>True, but same exact subject with same exact arguments. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Oh]

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have enjoyed pick up raids.But I have never heard that someone got Mythical with pick up raid.Of course, I don't have Mythical.I know that Mythical epic weapon is intended for raid.But isn't it unreasonable that we can't get Mythical with pick up raid?At least I think so.I don't have enough time to play in a hardcore raid guild.It must be hard that even players in casual raid guilds get Mythical.Should Mythical be left in hardcore raid guilds or not?</blockquote><p>Well I am in a raiding aliance, what this means is it's a bunch of folks that banded together across several guilds to work towards a common goal. We are not "hard core", well atleast by MY defination we aren't. We definatly aren't a PUG raid, and we are more hard core then casual. Anyways sorry for the ranting, we hit VP not that long ago, and finially downed druusk. Yea we aren't as far as some guilds that are hard core, but considering the kind of play style we have we are getting there.</p><p>As to pugs, I believe it is very possible for them to get to where we are, it will just take longer. Just like anything else, the less time/focus you put to an effort the longer it takes to achieve it.</p>

[bryldan]

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laoch69 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am in a small guild and never Raid (done enough of that in previous mmo's), and I think that Mythical versions should be for the Raid minded folks only.</p><p>If all you do is group, or solo, why do you need a Mythical weapon? The heroic version will do just as well <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>First off, let me say I agree with the majority of the thread, mythicals are a raid reward for putting in the time to get it. I don't think it should be changed.However, let me play devils advocate to why you need/want a mythical when you don't raid.To put it bluntly, its cause your class is being ballanced and scaled based upon having that weapon. So, for many classes with the upcomming changes, you would in effect get nerfed not having it. There has been enough information leaked from the beta servers to understand why atleast some classes will feal they eat more of a nerf cause they don't have myth.I don't want to repeat the nda breaks here, so I wont get into details, but I can certainly see this as an arguement for wanting the Myth outside of raiding.</blockquote>Not one of the classes that has a good mythical i will let you figure that one out because its clearly obvious which class that is.....

[Gareorn]

All servers have raid guilds that will get people their mythicals for a price. Debating who is derserving of a mythical at this point is kind of futile.

[Lasai]

<cite>Gareorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>All servers have raid guilds that will get people their mythicals for a price. Debating who is derserving of a mythical at this point is kind of futile.</blockquote>Agreed, all the silly rhetoric about who is deserving, risk v reward and all that is moot considering that Mythicals can be purchased.Seems hypocritical to put Mythicals on a pedestal of achievement... then turn around and sell it to anyone with a pile of plat.All the argument about who should or who shouldn't get this fly out the window when guilds are only too happy to sell the update to anyone, deserving of it or not.

[Jovie]

<p>Here is a simple reason why it should be more accessible to non hardcore raiders.</p><p>Raiders who have their mythical use that same weapon against non raid targets all the time. It isn't limited to raid only mobs.</p><p>Just because a person is a raider does not justify the raiders controlling the broker market.</p>

[Kizee]

<cite>Jovie@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Here is a simple reason why it should be more accessible to non hardcore raiders.</p><p>Raiders who have their mythical use that same weapon against non raid targets all the time. It isn't limited to raid only mobs.</p><p>Just because a person is a raider does not justify the raiders controlling the broker market.</p></blockquote><p>LOL </p><p>Oh please. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Oh]

<cite>Jovie@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Just because a person is a raider does not justify the raiders controlling the broker market.</p></blockquote><p>You lost me here, what does a Mythical have to do with the broker. Last I checked I can't put a mythical on the broker.. Tried it too still doesn't work!! QQ!!</p><p>Anyways like I said even my raid aliance is getting mythicals, seriously if you(not you specifically but the general sense of everyone) wants a mythical for <insert whatever reason> then join a raiding group/guild and you will eventually get one. Of course I hear folks can "purchase" them but ehh I would rather band together with a group of friends and actually go through the motions myself. Then again that's me.</p>

[Acute]

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Why does SOE emphasize hardcore gamers?</p></blockquote><b>Hardcore gamers may argue that SOE made change after change to make the game more friendly to casual gamers since 2 years.When will it be enough ?From a finuncial point of view, hardcore gamers tend to hook with a product for longer, as they invested much more time in their toons, which is also interesting for SOE.</b></blockquote><p>I dont agrre with this at all. There are people that have played this game from day 1 and are not raiders at all but have 4,5 or more level 80 characters. Is this not considered hardcore? just not in a raiding aspect. But i bet they have twice the play time as so called "hardcore raiders".</p><p>I fully agree if a pickup raid can clear VP content then more power to them, someone said that it takes attendance and dedication in a guild to clear VP, what i say to that is BS, if a pickup raid can coordinate enough to clear VP then i say those people have better skills than a person that raids with the same people everyday.</p><p>Those same hardcore raiders have wiped just as many times as a pickup raid, perhaps less because of familarity, learning the encounter as a pick up raid would. Just getting past Nexona is a pain in the rump because of the shinies alone, if they clear it then they deserve anything they reap.</p><p>SoE has to make a product that will appeal to every type of player, not the 20% that raid hardcaore consistanly, if they did EQ2 would have died off by now and thats not good business. I agree that hard core gamers "hook" faster but they also "flee' faster too, they get bored to fast. So far SoE has stood the test of time and hopefully with the next expansion will get people back to EQ, but my feeling is that this expansion will be the "deal" breaker for some and a "god send' for others.</p>

[Davngr1]

if you want one and can get one ie. buy/pu raid  go for it..   but nothing should be changed about the requirements to get one, ever.

[Op]

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm jealous of T3 guild hall, which a lot of players may not be able to have, as well as I'm jealous of Mythical.</p><p>Why does SOE emphasize hardcore gamers?</p></blockquote>I can't tell if this post is being sarcastic or not...But if not...are you serious? If you're not in a hardcore raid guild, chances are you don't need your mythical. This is like going to a car lot and trying to buy a brand new Corvette for $15,000, because you saw some rich guy with one and Chevy supports rich people. Sorry to compare the game to a real life situation, I know for some superficial reason this bugs some of you, but if you want something that bad, you play harder and achieve it. They gave Fabled epics for the casual players, mythical for more dedicated players. RoK is all casual friendly until the raid game. =

[Rijacki]

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks we already have this topic:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=426185&post_id=4746359" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...post_id=4746359</a></blockquote>That thread is almost 2 months old.  Getting close to being on the necro list. </blockquote>True, but same exact subject with same exact arguments. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>But a dead horse is preferable to a necro post... or.. umm.. something.  The worst, though is the necro post that's beating a dead horse.

[Thunndar316]

<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You are kidding right?</p><p>SoE made the fabled ones for the not so hardcore people.</p><p>Quit being jealous and setting your goals so high if you don't have the time to put in to get your mythical.</p></blockquote><p>I don't think it's so much about time.  It's about the numbers.  A lot of people play just as much as raiders do but they are still considered casual.  Personally I play a lot but I am in a small guild of real life friends.  On any given night we only have 4-5 people on with a max around 10.   This is the main reason why I think raid content should be concentrated on a maximum of two groups.  It would enable even the smallest guild to achieve end game and make all content available to everyone.  I can't even get my family together on a weekend much less assemble 24 strangers for a ten hour raid.</p><p>So your forced to make a choice.  Stay with your friends and do without or join a guild filled with hundreds of strangers just to get some loot.  I have chosen the former.</p><p>I'm sure, eventually pickup raids will be taking down Veeshan's Peak and obtaining Mythicals but it will take some time for the content to become trivial enough to where pickup raids are not just wiping out the entire time.  </p><p>I was able to get my Mark of Awakened in a pickup raid and I was the only player in my guild to have one.  I'm positive that eventually I will also have a mythical.  The demand is there, and the pickups will be trying.</p>

[Nero]

You say "If you don't raid, you don't need Mythical".  <p>But I am a SK.I can hardly keep aggro in Runnyeye: the gathering with players who have Mythicals.Jovie has a really good point.<cite> </cite></p><p><cite><a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:Jovie@Guk" target="_blank">Jovie@Guk</a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here is a simple reason why it should be more accessible to non hardcore raiders.</p><p>Raiders who have their mythical use that same weapon against non raid targets all the time. It isn't limited to raid only mobs.</p></blockquote><p>There are a lot of times when I play with the players with Mythicals.When I play with the players with Mythicals, I will come under the influence of Mythicals, regardless of my wishes.I can't keep aggro.But, hey, wait. Must not I need Mythical if I don't raid?But there are really the situations that I need Mythical to keep aggro with the other characters with Mythicals.Runnyeye: the gathering, Veksar....</p><p>Yes, I need Mythical even if I don't raid(Actually, I have enjoyed pick up raids).</p>

[Vain]

Simple answer... if you don't have the inkling/time/motivation to join a guild that has/will clear VP and get your mythical updates, then save up the plat and buy it. Between about 6 players in our small guild we have purchased 4 mythicals and will be buying a Guild Castle. We don't "farm"... we run instances/craft/harvest/etc... and slowly, but surely, raise the required plat. Do we need the mythicals or the Guild Castle? No. Will they help make the game more enjoyable for us? Yup. Have we broken some ethical/moral standards doing so? If you answer yes, LFG will pray for your eternal salvation.

[Kendricke]

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>You say "If you don't raid, you don't need Mythical".  <p>But I am a SK.I can't hardly keep aggro in Runnyeye: the gathering with players who have Mythicals.Jovie has a really good point.<cite> </cite></p><p><cite><a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:Jovie@Guk" target="_blank">Jovie@Guk</a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here is a simple reason why it should be more accessible to non hardcore raiders.</p><p>Raiders who have their mythical use that same weapon against non raid targets all the time. It isn't limited to raid only mobs.</p></blockquote><p>There are a lot of times when I play with the players with Mythicals.When I play with the players with Mythicals, I will come under the influence of Mythicals, regardless of my wishes.I can't keep aggro.But, hey, wait. Must not I need Mythical if I don't raid?But there are really the situations that I need Mythical to keep aggro with the other characters with Mythicals.Runnyeye: the gathering, Veksar....</p><p>Yes, I need Mythical even if I don't raid(Actually, I have enjoyed pick up raids).</p></blockquote><p>I also use a lot of legendary/heroic gear against solo targets.  Should fabled epics now be made available as a solo quest line only because it's not fair that players who can find groups get to solo with their fabled epics?  The logic doesn't follow...</p><p>Frankly, you don't need to be in a "hardcore raiding guild" to earn your mythical, anyway.  Our guild is anything but "hardcore", but we've managed to get our members Mythicals.  On most servers, you can also take coin you've earned while soloing or grouping and you can probably find at least one guild willing to take you along to help you gain your own Mythical if you're willing to pay them for the service (You don't think well off merchants or would be adventurers paid mercenaries to help them find legendary treasures in the fantasy stories out there?).  </p>

[Kendricke]

<cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simple answer... if you don't have the inkling/time/motivation to join a guild that has/will clear VP and get your mythical updates, then save up the plat and buy it. Between about 6 players in our small guild we have purchased 4 mythicals and will be buying a Guild Castle. We don't "farm"... we run instances/craft/harvest/etc... and slowly, but surely, raise the required plat.Do we need the mythicals or the Guild Castle? No. Will they help make the game more enjoyable for us? Yup. Have we broken some ethical/moral standards doing so? If you answer yes, LFG will pray for your eternal salvation.</blockquote><p>Vain gets it.  </p>

[Lasai]

<cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simple answer... if you don't have the inkling/time/motivation to join a guild that has/will clear VP and get your mythical updates, then save up the plat and buy it. Between about 6 players in our small guild we have purchased 4 mythicals and will be buying a Guild Castle. We don't "farm"... we run instances/craft/harvest/etc... and slowly, but surely, raise the required plat. Do we need the mythicals or the Guild Castle? No. Will they help make the game more enjoyable for us? Yup. Have we broken some ethical/moral standards doing so? If you answer yes, LFG will pray for your eternal salvation.</blockquote>If you use the standards put forth by many of the same people that sell you the update... no, you don't deserve it.  Not by playstyle, not by risk v reward, not by any of the measurements they use to define who "deserves" mythical content.It's hypocrisy, period.  People who don't "deserve" a mythical mysteriously become "deserving" if they have enough plat.  By selling the updates they demean the reward and make a mockery of thier own arguments.  That is my sole point.Not belittling you in any shape form or fashion.. just pointing out the double standard.

[Vain]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simple answer... if you don't have the inkling/time/motivation to join a guild that has/will clear VP and get your mythical updates, then save up the plat and buy it. Between about 6 players in our small guild we have purchased 4 mythicals and will be buying a Guild Castle. We don't "farm"... we run instances/craft/harvest/etc... and slowly, but surely, raise the required plat. Do we need the mythicals or the Guild Castle? No. Will they help make the game more enjoyable for us? Yup. Have we broken some ethical/moral standards doing so? If you answer yes, LFG will pray for your eternal salvation.</blockquote>If you use the standards put forth by many of the same people that sell you the update... no, you don't deserve it.  Not by playstyle, not by risk v reward, not by any of the measurements they use to define who "deserves" mythical content.It's hypocrisy, period.  People who don't "deserve" a mythical mysteriously become "deserving" if they have enough plat.  By selling the updates they demean the reward and make a mockery of thier own arguments.  That is my sole point.Not belittling you in any shape form or fashion.. just pointing out the double standard.</blockquote>Its only a double standard if you think that there is a requirement to deserve a mythical. That and the fact that you have to give a flying four-letter word for the reward to be demeaned in any way, shape or form.Further to this point, those that talk about standards in a game spend far too much time legitimizing their efforts in it.

[Lasai]

<cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simple answer... if you don't have the inkling/time/motivation to join a guild that has/will clear VP and get your mythical updates, then save up the plat and buy it. Between about 6 players in our small guild we have purchased 4 mythicals and will be buying a Guild Castle. We don't "farm"... we run instances/craft/harvest/etc... and slowly, but surely, raise the required plat. Do we need the mythicals or the Guild Castle? No. Will they help make the game more enjoyable for us? Yup. Have we broken some ethical/moral standards doing so? If you answer yes, LFG will pray for your eternal salvation.</blockquote>If you use the standards put forth by many of the same people that sell you the update... no, you don't deserve it.  Not by playstyle, not by risk v reward, not by any of the measurements they use to define who "deserves" mythical content.It's hypocrisy, period.  People who don't "deserve" a mythical mysteriously become "deserving" if they have enough plat.  By selling the updates they demean the reward and make a mockery of thier own arguments.  That is my sole point.Not belittling you in any shape form or fashion.. just pointing out the double standard.</blockquote>Its only a double standard if you think that there is a requirement to deserve a mythical. That and the fact that you have to give a flying four-letter word for the reward to be demeaned in any way, shape or form.Further to this point, those that talk about standards in a game spend far too much time legitimizing their efforts in it.</blockquote>If you aimed that remark at me you missed... I'm not the one pounding the pulpit of who deserves what, perhaps you missed the multiple pages of rhetoric regarding that.  I could give a flying fig about any of the mythicals simply because of the hidious graphics.NGE taught me a lesson about caring about any pixellated crap or achievements... we don't even own them, we just rent them from SOE.  Sony could put mythicals on NPC vendors tomorrow if they felt like it, and there isn't a damned thing anyone could do about it.I just enjoy pointing out inconsistancies. /shrug

[Davngr1]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simple answer... if you don't have the inkling/time/motivation to join a guild that has/will clear VP and get your mythical updates, then save up the plat and buy it. Between about 6 players in our small guild we have purchased 4 mythicals and will be buying a Guild Castle. We don't "farm"... we run instances/craft/harvest/etc... and slowly, but surely, raise the required plat.Do we need the mythicals or the Guild Castle? No. Will they help make the game more enjoyable for us? Yup. Have we broken some ethical/moral standards doing so? If you answer yes, LFG will pray for your eternal salvation.</blockquote>If you use the standards put forth by many of the same people that sell you the update... no, you don't deserve it.  Not by playstyle, not by risk v reward, not by any of the measurements they use to define who "deserves" mythical content.It's hypocrisy, period.  People who don't "deserve" a mythical mysteriously become "deserving" if they have enough plat.  By selling the updates they demean the reward and make a mockery of thier own arguments.  That is my sole point.Not belittling you in any shape form or fashion.. just pointing out the double standard.</blockquote><p>  people who buy their up dates earned their plat AND earned their myth,  far more then your alt or the app taht just joind a guild that is all ready killing the mob they need.. that's why guilds like confirm charge for myth up dates for apps.   </p><p>  the broker system started the buying and selling of goods and the concesion system carried this over into the service realm long ago.      guilds that sell up dates are only providing a service for a custumer and all this is indeed part of game.     </p><p> your double standard exist only in your mind sir.</p>

[Lasai]

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simple answer... if you don't have the inkling/time/motivation to join a guild that has/will clear VP and get your mythical updates, then save up the plat and buy it. Between about 6 players in our small guild we have purchased 4 mythicals and will be buying a Guild Castle. We don't "farm"... we run instances/craft/harvest/etc... and slowly, but surely, raise the required plat.Do we need the mythicals or the Guild Castle? No. Will they help make the game more enjoyable for us? Yup. Have we broken some ethical/moral standards doing so? If you answer yes, LFG will pray for your eternal salvation.</blockquote>If you use the standards put forth by many of the same people that sell you the update... no, you don't deserve it.  Not by playstyle, not by risk v reward, not by any of the measurements they use to define who "deserves" mythical content.It's hypocrisy, period.  People who don't "deserve" a mythical mysteriously become "deserving" if they have enough plat.  By selling the updates they demean the reward and make a mockery of thier own arguments.  That is my sole point.Not belittling you in any shape form or fashion.. just pointing out the double standard.</blockquote><p>  people who buy their up dates earned their plat AND earned their myth,  far more then your alt or the app taht just joind a guild that is all ready killing the mob they need.. that's why guilds like confirm charge for myth up dates for apps.   </p><p>  the broker system started the buying and selling of goods and the concesion system carried this over into the service realm long ago.      guilds that sell up dates are only providing a service for a custumer and all this is indeed part of game.     </p><p> your double standard exist only in your mind sir.</p></blockquote>ROFLyah, ok.

[Davngr1]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simple answer... if you don't have the inkling/time/motivation to join a guild that has/will clear VP and get your mythical updates, then save up the plat and buy it. Between about 6 players in our small guild we have purchased 4 mythicals and will be buying a Guild Castle. We don't "farm"... we run instances/craft/harvest/etc... and slowly, but surely, raise the required plat.Do we need the mythicals or the Guild Castle? No. Will they help make the game more enjoyable for us? Yup. Have we broken some ethical/moral standards doing so? If you answer yes, LFG will pray for your eternal salvation.</blockquote>If you use the standards put forth by many of the same people that sell you the update... no, you don't deserve it.  Not by playstyle, not by risk v reward, not by any of the measurements they use to define who "deserves" mythical content.It's hypocrisy, period.  People who don't "deserve" a mythical mysteriously become "deserving" if they have enough plat.  By selling the updates they demean the reward and make a mockery of thier own arguments.  That is my sole point.Not belittling you in any shape form or fashion.. just pointing out the double standard.</blockquote><p>  people who buy their up dates earned their plat AND earned their myth,  far more then your alt or the app taht just joind a guild that is all ready killing the mob they need.. that's why guilds like confirm charge for myth up dates for apps.   </p><p>  the broker system started the buying and selling of goods and the concesion system carried this over into the service realm long ago.      guilds that sell up dates are only providing a service for a custumer and all this is indeed part of game.     </p><p> your double standard exist only in your mind sir.</p></blockquote>ROFLyah, ok.</blockquote>bah.. i was hoping to argue with someone tonight.. im sorta bored   :

[Vain]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>If you use the standards put forth by many of the same people that sell you the update... no, you don't deserve it.  Not by playstyle, not by risk v reward, not by any of the measurements they use to define who "deserves" mythical content.It's hypocrisy, period.  People who don't "deserve" a mythical mysteriously become "deserving" if they have enough plat.  By selling the updates they demean the reward and make a mockery of thier own arguments.  That is my sole point.Not belittling you in any shape form or fashion.. just pointing out the double standard.</blockquote>Its only a double standard if you think that there is a requirement to deserve a mythical. That and the fact that you have to give a flying four-letter word for the reward to be demeaned in any way, shape or form.Further to this point, those that talk about standards in a game spend far too much time legitimizing their efforts in it.</blockquote>If you aimed that remark at me you missed... I'm not the one pounding the pulpit of who deserves what, perhaps you missed the multiple pages of rhetoric regarding that.  I could give a flying fig about any of the mythicals simply because of the hidious graphics.NGE taught me a lesson about caring about any pixellated crap or achievements... we don't even own them, we just rent them from SOE.  Sony could put mythicals on NPC vendors tomorrow if they felt like it, and there isn't a damned thing anyone could do about it.I just enjoy pointing out inconsistancies. /shrug</blockquote>You seemed to have pointed out a double-standard. I simply pointed out that one exists only if you have skewed sets of standards.As for inconsistencies... go ahead, point them out. Its your dime.

[pandemonium73]

Sheesh man, leave the poor raiders their bone.  Things are more than fair for us soloers/casual groupers and raiders.  Crap, I don't even have my fabled yet, almost all my gear was acquired thru solo quests or on the broker, and I can still solo heal every instance and have done a decent job on the occasional raids I've subbed in.  If I decide I want to raid more I'll go for better gear,because then I'll need it, but I frankly feel pretty overpowered against the mobs I've encountered with just the gear any old player can get, so for plain old soloing/grouping, I wouldn't want better gear than I have.

[Lasai]

<cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simple answer... if you don't have the inkling/time/motivation to join a guild that has/will clear VP and get your mythical updates, then save up the plat and buy it. Between about 6 players in our small guild we have purchased 4 mythicals and will be buying a Guild Castle. We don't "farm"... we run instances/craft/harvest/etc... and slowly, but surely, raise the required plat. Do we need the mythicals or the Guild Castle? No. Will they help make the game more enjoyable for us? Yup. Have we broken some ethical/moral standards doing so? If you answer yes, LFG will pray for your eternal salvation.</blockquote>I really like pointing out inconsistancies...and I was bored <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/search/userSearch.m?clean=1&sortBy=time&sortDir=DESC&userId=322258" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=424917�" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...17�</a>Char Vainamoinen.. NajenaGuild   N Friends.. level 80,  Unique Members.. 80LOL six people indeed.  You might try and remember that Guild Info cant be made anon next time.

[CraigH]

I'm looking to buy berserker mytical updates on Antonia Bayle.  Please send an in-game mail to Varinn.  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Vain]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I really like pointing out inconsistancies...and I was bored <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/search/userSearch.m?clean=1&sortBy=time&sortDir=DESC&userId=322258" target="_blank"></a><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=424917�" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...17�</a>Char Vainamoinen.. NajenaGuild   N Friends.. level 80,  Unique Members.. 80LOL six people indeed.  You might try and remember that Guild Info cant be made anon next time.</blockquote>Wow!! GG Sherlock!You may wanna upgrade your 1337 sleuthing skills to Peter Falk and look at how active the majority of those unique members are. Besides, where did I say there were only 6 people in our guild? I said that "between 6 people in our guild" we had managed to do what we did. I dunno where this turned into you being an amatuer detective, but at whatever point is was there was a significant amount of fail added to your repetoire as well.Learn to read and get back on topic.

[steelbadger]

I really find this mentality so hard to fathom...I see a man driving a Ferrari I want the Ferrari, of course I do.  But I also accept that whomever owns the Ferrari has probably earned it by working weekends and making sacrifices for years.  I respect their achievment, there is no place for envy unless you are willing to make the same sacrifices that they where willing to make.One can be envious of their achievement if one have worked as hard as them and to the same hours as them; because if they deserve it then you deserve it too.  But to deserve it one <i>must</i> do the same work and make the same sacrifices.So in closing:  It is irrational to envy someone for a single aspect of their life as that aspect was gotten through sacrifice and to hold a rational envy one must be willing to make all the same sacrifices as the envied person, this you are unwilling to do.You merely covet what they have; you want what they have but are unwilling to do what they did to achieve it.

[Lasai]

<cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I really like pointing out inconsistancies...and I was bored <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/search/userSearch.m?clean=1&sortBy=time&sortDir=DESC&userId=322258" target="_blank"></a><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=424917�" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...17�</a>Char Vainamoinen.. NajenaGuild   N Friends.. level 80,  Unique Members.. 80LOL six people indeed.  You might try and remember that Guild Info cant be made anon next time.</blockquote>Wow!! GG Sherlock!You may wanna upgrade your 1337 sleuthing skills to Peter Falk and look at how active the majority of those unique members are. Besides, where did I say there were only 6 people in our guild? I said that "between 6 people in our guild" we had managed to do what we did. I dunno where this turned into you being an amatuer detective, but at whatever point is was there was a significant amount of fail added to your repetoire as well.Learn to read and get back on topic.</blockquote>I read very well thank you.  Your "small", "inactive members" guild has amassed 29 million status since Feb 2007, ranked second on server.  15k rares harvested. 43rd in Most Wealth on Najena.  I didn't bother looking further.I really don't need to look at individual members to see you whitewashed your original post it to seem more like a casual "good ol boy" player in a small guild who just neeeeeds to buy his way through the game.   I don't think buying your Guild Castle is gonna be the slow struggle you made it out to be.  Your post history indicates that you feel the sole requirement for anything in game should be no more than a sufficient pile of plat.. and that is pertinant to this discussion.Fine if you want to buy your way through the game.. just don't paint yourself as casual Joe in a small, struggling inactive guild to somehow validate that.Fail.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  ok 

[Ama]

<p>Unfortunately with the way mythicals work the magic behind is not so magical anymore.  Guilds who obtained their mythicals will now sell mythical updates to people for a "Price".  When that happens it becomes a job where guilds can earn coin to sustain themselves for raiding which kinda sucks.  </p><p>Already with the server i'm on there are 2-3 guilds that sell mythical updates.  For VP and Levi updates it's about 150-200plat and for all mythical updates it's about 350plat I believe.  You get the money your gtg and the mythical is practically in your hands.  </p><p>Sadly even if mythicals required a trakanon kill to finalize it I have a feeling it wouldn't matter.  Because of this I think the OP's question is really defeated since they won't be left to hard core guilds.  It will go to whoever can pay the desired amount of plat to get the item. </p>

[Illine]

well if people are willing to spend so much money for the mythicql, let it be. You spend your money the way you want.

[Thunndar316]

<p>So what is the going rate on a Guild letting you in for Mythical updates?</p><p> <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Thunndar316]

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really find this mentality so hard to fathom...I see a man driving a Ferrari I want the Ferrari, of course I do.  But I also accept that whomever owns the Ferrari has probably earned it by working weekends and making sacrifices for years.  I respect their achievment, there is no place for envy unless you are willing to make the same sacrifices that they where willing to make.One can be envious of their achievement if one have worked as hard as them and to the same hours as them; because if they deserve it then you deserve it too.  But to deserve it one <i>must</i> do the same work and make the same sacrifices.So in closing:  It is irrational to envy someone for a single aspect of their life as that aspect was gotten through sacrifice and to hold a rational envy one must be willing to make all the same sacrifices as the envied person, this you are unwilling to do.You merely covet what they have; you want what they have but are unwilling to do what they did to achieve it.</blockquote>Close but you don't need 23 friends to purchase a Ferrari.  You just need the money.

[habby2]

The mythical weapon is a RAID quest series.  If you don't raid, you don't get it. 

[Vain]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I read very well thank you.  Your "small", "inactive members" guild has amassed 29 million status since Feb 2007, ranked second on server.  15k rares harvested. 43rd in Most Wealth on Najena.  I didn't bother looking further.I really don't need to look at individual members to see you whitewashed your original post it to seem more like a casual "good ol boy" player in a small guild who just neeeeeds to buy his way through the game.   I don't think buying your Guild Castle is gonna be the slow struggle you made it out to be.  Your post history indicates that you feel the sole requirement for anything in game should be no more than a sufficient pile of plat.. and that is pertinant to this discussion.Fine if you want to buy your way through the game.. just don't paint yourself as casual Joe in a small, struggling inactive guild to somehow validate that.Fail.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  ok  </blockquote>I give you all the credit for fail here, as you've failed to do your homework thoroughly enough to notice that one member in our guild (WW 1st overall for status) has amassed well over half of our guild's status on one toon. That leaves us with under 10 million status for the rest of us to worry about. Without even looking, I can tell you that no more than 6-8 other people can account for 90% of that 10 million status.By the way, I feel the sole requirement for anything in game should be enjoyment. I enjoy the pace at which I play and get my loot, as do the other members of our guild. Of course, we won't get everything we might like to have in game that way, but it really isn't an issue. A "sufficient pile of plat" has got me one itme in game that I may not have otherwise been able to get - a mythical. If you have another method to obtain a Guild Castle other than having 1000pp and status let me know.

[M0rticia]

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really find this mentality so hard to fathom...I see a man driving a Ferrari I want the Ferrari, of course I do.  But I also accept that whomever owns the Ferrari has probably earned it by working weekends and making sacrifices for years.  I respect their achievment, there is no place for envy unless you are willing to make the same sacrifices that they where willing to make.One can be envious of their achievement if one have worked as hard as them and to the same hours as them; because if they deserve it then you deserve it too.  But to deserve it one <i>must</i> do the same work and make the same sacrifices.So in closing:  It is irrational to envy someone for a single aspect of their life as that aspect was gotten through sacrifice and to hold a rational envy one must be willing to make all the same sacrifices as the envied person, this you are unwilling to do.You merely covet what they have; you want what they have but are unwilling to do what they did to achieve it.</blockquote>Very well said, my friend. I couldn't agree more.

[Lasai]

<cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I read very well thank you.  Your "small", "inactive members" guild has amassed 29 million status since Feb 2007, ranked second on server.  15k rares harvested. 43rd in Most Wealth on Najena.  I didn't bother looking further.I really don't need to look at individual members to see you whitewashed your original post it to seem more like a casual "good ol boy" player in a small guild who just neeeeeds to buy his way through the game.   I don't think buying your Guild Castle is gonna be the slow struggle you made it out to be.  Your post history indicates that you feel the sole requirement for anything in game should be no more than a sufficient pile of plat.. and that is pertinant to this discussion.Fine if you want to buy your way through the game.. just don't paint yourself as casual Joe in a small, struggling inactive guild to somehow validate that.Fail.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  ok  </blockquote>I give you all the credit for fail here, as you've failed to do your homework thoroughly enough to notice that one member in our guild (WW 1st overall for status) has amassed well over half of our guild's status on one toon. That leaves us with under 10 million status for the rest of us to worry about. Without even looking, I can tell you that no more than 6-8 other people can account for 90% of that 10 million status.By the way, I feel the sole requirement for anything in game should be enjoyment. I enjoy the pace at which I play and get my loot, as do the other members of our guild. Of course, we won't get everything we might like to have in game that way, but it really isn't an issue. A "sufficient pile of plat" has got me one itme in game that I may not have otherwise been able to get - a mythical. If you have another method to obtain a Guild Castle other than having 1000pp and status let me know. </blockquote>Thanks for the comedic relief.  One Toon, 14 months old, 19452706 contributed status, 151 days of play, thats umm... 128,000 contributed status gain a day, every day, rounded down.  Thats 1,280,000 personal status gain per day BTW.  Pretty easy to speculate how./shrug.   Guess somebody has to support those underpaid RMT employees.  Pretty obvious to me what your guild standards are.You can earn a trophy... or just stroll into a Trophy shop and buy one.  Kudos on your meaningless trophy case.

[Vain]

Wow... now we're on to baseless accusations.I guess that's the way it goes when you've exhausted all other mindless arguments.Keep up the speculation. That's really all you have going for you.

[Davngr1]

<p> so did the non-crafting raiders who had wurmslayer made for them,  did they deserver it?    i mean sure they killed the 3 epic mobs with their 23 friends but they did not lvl a crafter and thus did  not earn the weapon right?    im not saying it's right..  but if someone can't by their own means acquire something, that said person can then use coin/barter.  this has ben part of the game for a long time.   </p>

[Lasai]

<cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow... now we're on to baseless accusations.I guess that's the way it goes when you've exhausted all other mindless arguments.Keep up the speculation. That's really all you have going for you.</blockquote>Care to offer up an explanation for 128k daily average <span style="color: #ff0000;">contributed</span> status?  It's posted on Players.. hardly baseless.Adios, enjoy your purcha..... er, gameplay.

[Davngr1]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I read very well thank you.  Your "small", "inactive members" guild has amassed 29 million status since Feb 2007, ranked second on server.  15k rares harvested. 43rd in Most Wealth on Najena.  I didn't bother looking further.I really don't need to look at individual members to see you whitewashed your original post it to seem more like a casual "good ol boy" player in a small guild who just neeeeeds to buy his way through the game.   I don't think buying your Guild Castle is gonna be the slow struggle you made it out to be.  Your post history indicates that you feel the sole requirement for anything in game should be no more than a sufficient pile of plat.. and that is pertinant to this discussion.Fine if you want to buy your way through the game.. just don't paint yourself as casual Joe in a small, struggling inactive guild to somehow validate that.Fail.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  ok  </blockquote>I give you all the credit for fail here, as you've failed to do your homework thoroughly enough to notice that one member in our guild (WW 1st overall for status) has amassed well over half of our guild's status on one toon. That leaves us with under 10 million status for the rest of us to worry about. Without even looking, I can tell you that no more than 6-8 other people can account for 90% of that 10 million status.By the way, I feel the sole requirement for anything in game should be enjoyment. I enjoy the pace at which I play and get my loot, as do the other members of our guild. Of course, we won't get everything we might like to have in game that way, but it really isn't an issue. A "sufficient pile of plat" has got me one itme in game that I may not have otherwise been able to get - a mythical. If you have another method to obtain a Guild Castle other than having 1000pp and status let me know. </blockquote>Thanks for the comedic relief.  One Toon, 14 months old, 19452706 contributed status, 151 days of play, thats umm... 128,000 contributed status gain a day, every day, rounded down.  Thats 1,280,000 personal status gain per day BTW.  Pretty easy to speculate how./shrug.   Guess somebody has to support those underpaid RMT employees.  Pretty obvious to me what your guild standards are.You can earn a trophy... or just stroll into a Trophy shop and buy one.  Kudos on your meaningless trophy case.</blockquote><p>  did your alt earn the *torphy*?     did the app who just joing a guild all ready killing the mob earn the *trophy*?     </p><p> You earn the a trophy you dont just take it off someone elses shelf.</p><p> edit. typo</p>

[Vain]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow... now we're on to baseless accusations.I guess that's the way it goes when you've exhausted all other mindless arguments.Keep up the speculation. That's really all you have going for you.</blockquote>Care to offer up an explanation for 128k daily average <span style="color: #ff0000;">contributed</span> status?  It's posted on Players.. hardly baseless.Adios, enjoy your purcha..... er, gameplay.</blockquote>Alright, so you think you can walk into a conversation and begin accusing people of improprietry. I would suggest you tread lightly.There are countless numbers of ways to gain status in this game. I don't need to justify how any of us have gained status in this game to some random scrub like yourself. But think of it this way:1 T8 rush order ~1.5K status. Completed in 4 minutes over the course of an 6 hour day, that work out to (6*60)/4 *1500K = 135K contributed status a day. That is far within the realm of possibility so I don't know what your [Removed for Content] issue is. That and the fact that plat in RoK is about as commonplace as rats In NYC, one could purchase countless amounts of status items from the broker and further add to their totals, if needs be.Continue to malign myself and my guildmates. It only helps to display how completely inaccurate your assumptions are and how much you need a boost to your obviously miserable self-confidence. I don't often let mindless drones get me hot under the collar, but when they have the gall to accuse my guildmates of false accomplishments, I make an exception.

[Soluss2]

<cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow... now we're on to baseless accusations.I guess that's the way it goes when you've exhausted all other mindless arguments.Keep up the speculation. That's really all you have going for you.</blockquote>Care to offer up an explanation for 128k daily average <span style="color: #ff0000;">contributed</span> status?  It's posted on Players.. hardly baseless.Adios, enjoy your purcha..... er, gameplay.</blockquote>Alright, so you think you can walk into a conversation and begin accusing people of improprietry. I would suggest you tread lightly.There are countless numbers of ways to gain status in this game. I don't need to justify how any of us have gained status in this game to some random scrub like yourself. But think of it this way:1 T8 rush order ~1.5K status. Completed in 4 minutes over the course of an 6 hour day, that work out to (6*60)/4 *1500K = 135K contributed status a day. That is far within the realm of possibility so I don't know what your [Removed for Content] issue is. That and the fact that plat in RoK is about as commonplace as rats In NYC, one could purchase countless amounts of status items from the broker and further add to their totals, if needs be.Continue to malign myself and my guildmates. It only helps to display how completely inaccurate your assumptions are and how much you need a boost to your obviously miserable self-confidence. I don't often let mindless drones get me hot under the collar, but when they have the gall to accuse my guildmates of false accomplishments, I make an exception.</blockquote>6 Hours a day, everday doing nothing but work orders?  God thats got to be boring.

[Lasai]

<cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow... now we're on to baseless accusations.I guess that's the way it goes when you've exhausted all other mindless arguments.Keep up the speculation. That's really all you have going for you.</blockquote>Care to offer up an explanation for 128k daily average <span style="color: #ff0000;">contributed</span> status?  It's posted on Players.. hardly baseless.Adios, enjoy your purcha..... er, gameplay.</blockquote>Alright, so you think you can walk into a conversation and begin accusing people of improprietry. I would suggest you tread lightly.There are countless numbers of ways to gain status in this game. I don't need to justify how any of us have gained status in this game to some random scrub like yourself. But think of it this way:1 T8 rush order ~1.5K status. Completed in 4 minutes over the course of an 6 hour day, that work out to (6*60)/4 *1500K = 135K contributed status a day. That is far within the realm of possibility so I don't know what your [Removed for Content] issue is. That and the fact that plat in RoK is about as commonplace as rats In NYC, <span style="color: #ff0000;">one could purchase countless amounts of status items from the broker and further add to their totals, if needs be.</span>Continue to malign myself and my guildmates. It only helps to display how completely inaccurate your assumptions are and how much you need a boost to your obviously miserable self-confidence. I don't often let mindless drones get me hot under the collar, but when they have the gall to accuse my guildmates of false accomplishments, I make an exception.</blockquote>Would it make you hotter to know I'm laughing as I type this? 128k a DAY, every day, over the LIFE of the account... um yah, t8 writs would do that, umm hmmm.Your self rightious posturing is amusing to this "random scrub", but I'm done now.  You've admitted you have no issues with buying your way through the game, pointing out further examples of it shouldn't rankle you this much if indeed, you have no issues with it.

[Vain]

Purchasing items with in-game plat is something I have no issue with. You accusing myself and fellow guildies of using the RMT industry to do so is completely ignorant.Self-righteous? No. Self-respecting? Yes.Now please, enough with the idiocy and move along.

[Oh]

<cite>Soluss2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow... now we're on to baseless accusations.I guess that's the way it goes when you've exhausted all other mindless arguments.Keep up the speculation. That's really all you have going for you.</blockquote>Care to offer up an explanation for 128k daily average <span style="color: #ff0000;">contributed</span> status?  It's posted on Players.. hardly baseless.Adios, enjoy your purcha..... er, gameplay.</blockquote>Alright, so you think you can walk into a conversation and begin accusing people of improprietry. I would suggest you tread lightly.There are countless numbers of ways to gain status in this game. I don't need to justify how any of us have gained status in this game to some random scrub like yourself. But think of it this way:1 T8 rush order ~1.5K status. Completed in 4 minutes over the course of an 6 hour day, that work out to (6*60)/4 *1500K = 135K contributed status a day. That is far within the realm of possibility so I don't know what your [Removed for Content] issue is. That and the fact that plat in RoK is about as commonplace as rats In NYC, one could purchase countless amounts of status items from the broker and further add to their totals, if needs be.Continue to malign myself and my guildmates. It only helps to display how completely inaccurate your assumptions are and how much you need a boost to your obviously miserable self-confidence. I don't often let mindless drones get me hot under the collar, but when they have the gall to accuse my guildmates of false accomplishments, I make an exception.</blockquote>6 Hours a day, everday doing nothing but work orders?  God thats got to be boring.</blockquote>OMG 6 hoursa day, i know alot of folks that just can NOT commit that kind of time to a GAME aside from the point it would be boring to spend 6 hours just doing writs IMO.

[Vain]

I can manage maybe 10 rush orders max.Charliie has set a goal for herself, she has the time/resources in order to acheive and maintain that goal and I have nothing but respect for her dedication. She finds it horribly tedious and embraces the opportunity to run instances/raid whenever she can.That is however, one of the great things about EQ2. It can be enjoyed in so many different ways.

[Tsunai]

<p>Let's get this thread back on topic and move away from accusations and lambasting or it'll get closed.</p><p>Here, I'll help. <b>The topic is whether or not Mythical epics should only be obtainable by hardcore raiding guilds.</b></p><p>Ready, set, GO!</p>

[troodon]

<cite>Tsunai wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b>The topic is whether or not Mythical epics should only be obtainable by hardcore raiding guilds.</b></p></blockquote>Only obtainable by those who can earn them, yes.

[Vain]

Simple enough question:How would you make it so that mythicals and their updates were only available to hardcore raiders (if they even need to be hardcore, at all)?Peripheral questions like "What about the rest of the raid-only loot that is sold through loot rights?", etc... would also have to be addressed.

[Pins]

They won't be left in hardcore raid guilds once you get 60 more AAs, and better heroic instanced gear.

[Novusod]

<cite>Tsunai wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Here, I'll help. <b>The topic is whether or not Mythical epics should only be obtainable by hardcore raiding guilds.</b></p><p>Ready, set, GO!</p></blockquote>It is not so much an issue of Mythicals staying hardcore guild only forever. It is really more an issue of <span style="color: #ff0000;">when</span> the causal/lesser skilled players get their mythical. Nobody even raises an eye brow these days if a pick up raid gets Claymore or Soulfire done. The same will be said about mythicals given enough time to pass. The real debate is when will that time come. Will it be "Soon" or will it be much later perhaps after the next level cap increase? I am more in the sooner rather than later camp.

[rollando]

 It's not as if not having your mythical could prevent you from playing ! It makes sense for the best item in a category to be obtained late in the life of the expansion, and only by players who put lots of time and organisation in it.

[Rahatmattata]

The mythic epic weapons have been so cheapened by now, just make it a reward from some solo quest in JW imo.

[Noaani]

<p>T5, by the end of it, casual raid alliances were killing Darathar, and shortly into T6 complete pickup raids were also.</p><p>T6, a few months after hardcore raids had killed godking, casual raids were doing it as well. Not long into T7, pickup raids were consistantly getting godking weapons.</p><p>T7, the only thing that prevented any raid, be it a guild,  or alliance, from killing Tarinax before the end of KoS was them having Deathtoll access. Casual raids with it were killing him prior to EoF, and pickup raids were killing him not long after. Some of the better casual raid guilds were able to kill Mayong and get their Soulfire weapons prior to RoK, and pickup raids have been killing him for 6 months.</p><p>What makes people think that this tier is going to be different? The only thing VP requires that these other zones did not is concentration, and a little discipline. If you have these things, you will kill VP with a pickup raid a few months into TSO. If you do not have these things, what makes you think you deserve mythical weapons?</p>

[Lasai]

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>T5, by the end of it, casual raid alliances were killing Darathar, and shortly into T6 complete pickup raids were also.</p><p>T6, a few months after hardcore raids had killed godking, casual raids were doing it as well. Not long into T7, pickup raids were consistantly getting godking weapons.</p><p>T7, the only thing that prevented any raid, be it a guild,  or alliance, from killing Tarinax before the end of KoS was them having Deathtoll access. Casual raids with it were killing him prior to EoF, and pickup raids were killing him not long after. Some of the better casual raid guilds were able to kill Mayong and get their Soulfire weapons prior to RoK, and pickup raids have been killing him for 6 months.</p><p>What makes people think that this tier is going to be different? The only thing VP requires that these other zones did not is concentration, and a little discipline. If you have these things, you will kill VP with a pickup raid a few months into TSO. <span style="color: #ff9900;">If you do not have these things, what makes you think you deserve mythical weapons?</span></p></blockquote>Enough plat to buy a raid slot?   See, this is what I don't understand.  I've never disputed that end game raiding is not for the casual, non-raider, and neither is the gear, a casual simply doesn't need it for casual content.  I'm fine with that.It confuses me that some put forth so many reasons why some content should be available only to whatever definition of "deserving" players they use, and yet will casually turn around and sell that same content to a player who does not fit into that definition of "deserving".I am really not trying to hijack... just trying to understand holding on to the idea of defending content being reserved for "deserving" players, and then turning around and selling it to players that don't fit the very criterion used by some to defend the concept.Granted, this is not a mechanic issue.. but to me it is a curious position for End Game guilds to take.I fully admit and agree that MY characters aren't deserving of a Mythical.. I don't raid, I don't care, I don't group out of my tiny guild, I don't do anything that remotely qualifies me for one... and, IF I chose to buy my way to one nothing would change that, I would just have an item I don't deserve and didn't earn.   The thing would mean no more to me than any broker purchase weapon.Seems to me that if End Game guilds truly believe the hype regarding "Deserving", they would search thier beliefs a bit harder prior to selling content to anyone with enough money.I support the idea that Mythicals should be the reward for hard, End Game Raid encounters, and those Guilds that pursue that content.   My confusion comes from those same guilds essentially making that hard earned content available as a private broker transaction.   I don't understand that.

[Pins]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>I support the idea that Mythicals should be the reward for hard, End Game Raid encounters, and those Guilds that pursue that content.   My confusion comes from those same guilds essentially making that hard earned content available as a private broker transaction.   I don't understand that.</blockquote>Because doing the same content over and over again for little to no reward isn't fun?

[Lasai]

<cite>Pinski wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>I support the idea that Mythicals should be the reward for hard, End Game Raid encounters, and those Guilds that pursue that content.   My confusion comes from those same guilds essentially making that hard earned content available as a private broker transaction.   I don't understand that.</blockquote>Because doing the same content over and over again for little to no reward isn't fun?</blockquote>Can't argue that, just can't see how it can be fun to sell something you worked so hard for to players you honestly don't think deserve it.Not a flame.. As I said I don't think I deserve a mythical.. and see no fault if you think the same.It's hard to support you guys in your position re End Game content when you turn around and pull the rug out from under the argument by selling it.

[Vain]

How the dilemma to sell mythicals is resolved:GL: "Should we sell mythicals?"Officer#1: "Heck no! Those scrubs don't deserve them!"Officer#2: "Think of the mountains of plat, though!!!"Officer#1: "Oh ya! LoL! What are we waiting for?!?"Its obviously a matter of financial gain more than anything. I mean, at the end of each month, do you think any high-end raiders can hear their guilty consciences over the giant "Ka-Ching" of a 1K guild spilt?Anyway, as looting rights to raid gear have been sold for quite a while now, I think the biggest gripe is not that the casual scrub has access to raid gear (at the right price) but they may have access to raid-quality gear obtained in a heroic instance/zone. The whole "risk vs. reward vs. profit-margin" argument.Hard and fast ethics/morals, etc... when it comes to a game are equally as baffling as anything presented in this thread thus far. If it all boiled down to absolutes like "need", do any of us need to play EQ2? No. Why, then, do we play it? "For enjoyment" is the simplest of answers (you can shine it up and paint it blue and call it something else, but it equates to enjoyment). Thus, why is it that someone's idea of enjoyment can be so brutally distasteful to another? No laws or IRL morals/ethics are being shattered. No one is suffering pain and anguish. We're all just trying to have fun. Apparently some people need to go out of their way to attempt to dictate what enjoyment should be.

[Kendricke]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's hard to support you guys in your position re End Game content when you turn around and pull the rug out from under the argument by selling it.</blockquote><p>Why?</p><p>There are many different motivations in fantasy literature and lore revolving around mercenary adventurers.  Just because you personally see a double standard doesn't mean there necessarily is one - you're just imposing your own moral perspective upon what is essentially an amoral situation.  Guild A has the ability, organization, and skill necessary to kill creatures X, Y, and Z.  Player B belongs to a guild that can't.  Player B has the ability to earn lots of coin, though, through broker sales, farming, tradeskilling - whatever.  Guild A is willing to take payment for their services.  Player B is willing to pay for those services.  </p><p>Does this make the effort cheapened?  For Player B, perhaps.  However, it still required Guild A's ability, organization, and skill to kill X, Y, and Z in the first place.  That Mythical was earned through those efforts, regardless of whether or not Player B personally earned the item.  </p><p>Is it how I'd prefer to earn my Mythical?  No, not at all.  Do I frown upon it?  Personally, I probably do...but that doesn't mean I won't associate with someone who decides differently.  It's not for me to judge someone based on whether or not they feel it's right or not.  The fact is that it's neither right nor wrong.  It's not an exploit.  It's not RMT.  It's an in-game payment for in-game services rendered. </p>

[Lasai]

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's hard to support you guys in your position re End Game content when you turn around and pull the rug out from under the argument by selling it.</blockquote><p>Why?</p><p>There are many different motivations in fantasy literature and lore revolving around mercenary adventurers.  Just because you personally see a double standard doesn't mean there necessarily is one - you're just imposing your own moral perspective upon what is essentially an amoral situation.  Guild A has the ability, organization, and skill necessary to kill creatures X, Y, and Z.  Player B belongs to a guild that can't.  Player B has the ability to earn lots of coin, though, through broker sales, farming, tradeskilling - whatever.  Guild A is willing to take payment for their services.  Player B is willing to pay for those services.  </p><p>Does this make the effort cheapened?  For Player B, perhaps.  However, it still required Guild A's ability, organization, and skill to kill X, Y, and Z in the first place.  That Mythical was earned through those efforts, regardless of whether or not Player B personally earned the item.  </p><p>Is it how I'd prefer to earn my Mythical?  No, not at all.  Do I frown upon it?  Personally, I probably do...but that doesn't mean I won't associate with someone who decides differently.  It's not for me to judge someone based on whether or not they feel it's right or not.  The fact is that it's neither right nor wrong.  It's not an exploit.  It's not RMT.  It's an in-game payment for in-game services rendered. </p></blockquote>A.  Fantasy lore and literature have zero to do with the argument.  By that standard Farcical Pond dwelling tarts could simply lob Mythical scimitars at random passersby.B.  I imposed standards on no one.  I merely accepted the standards regarding Endgame Raid content as put forth by the majority of those who participate in such. I find it conflicting that those who put forth those standards originally have no issues waiving them for a fee.Perhaps the topic should be "Who should have CONTROL over Acquisition AND Retail Distribution of Mythical rewards" and just throw the who deserves what argument out the window.. as it then becomes simply an access issue rather than an Item issue.That would better reflect the state of Mythicals being merely an expensive commodity.

[Kendricke]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Perhaps the topic should be "Who should have CONTROL over Acquisition AND Retail Distribution of Mythical rewards" and just throw the who deserves what argument out the window.. </blockquote>Sorry, I thought that the topic was "Should Mythical be left in hardcore raid guilds or not?"  I suppose my answer remains "But they aren't now."

[Vain]

Perhaps the standards of Endgame raid guilds have been misconstrued/misunderstood. That would explain why conflicts in standards seem to exist where there are none.

[Lasai]

<cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Perhaps the standards of Endgame raid guilds have been misconstrued/misunderstood. That would explain why conflicts in standards seem to exist where there are none.</blockquote>And the debate between raid guilds who sell updates and those who do not also doesn't exist?  You make a statement of absolutes when you say "None".  Some guilds have elected not to sell updates, some have.  There is a conflict in standards, has been for some time, it just isn't discussed on this forum.Sometimes principals can't be bought, and for some guilds, they weren't.  I respect the guilds that stuck to their ideal that End Game had to be somewhat earned in the face of piles of easy plat.  For what its worth,  I can respect thier opinions because they held to them.I still support End Game Raid items being the province of dedicated end game raiders.  I respect the idea that items be reserved for people who take the time to co-ordinate 24 people into a cohesive force capable of however many trips it takes to outfit thier members.  I understand that this is not inclusive to all, nor all playstyles.  Thats fine. The way the mythical was set up guaranteed it would be a sales item.  The Fabled was supposed to be "everymans" weapon, but the way the mythical was implemented negated that.. the mythical is now "everymans" weapon, and it shouldn't be.   Mythical should never have been purchasable by any means.Thats my final statement. 

[Noaani]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>My confusion comes from those same guilds essentially making that hard earned content available as a private broker transaction.   I don't understand that.</blockquote><p>If there is a buyer, someone will offer to sell, its simple economics really.</p><p>This is an argument that has gone on since Prismatic weapons. The only raid quest where updates wern't widely avalible was Deathtoll for the Claymore series, and that was for multiple reasons.</p><p>I'm not saying its right or wrong, but it you have the money to buy your way into what someone else has earnt, then you have earnt the hard work they put in to it if they are willing to sell it.</p>

[Dasein]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Perhaps the standards of Endgame raid guilds have been misconstrued/misunderstood. That would explain why conflicts in standards seem to exist where there are none.</blockquote>And the debate between raid guilds who sell updates and those who do not also doesn't exist?  You make a statement of absolutes when you say "None".  Some guilds have elected not to sell updates, some have.  There is a conflict in standards, has been for some time, it just isn't discussed on this forum.Sometimes principals can't be bought, and for some guilds, they weren't.  I respect the guilds that stuck to their ideal that End Game had to be somewhat earned in the face of piles of easy plat.  For what its worth,  I can respect thier opinions because they held to them.I still support End Game Raid items being the province of dedicated end game raiders.  I respect the idea that items be reserved for people who take the time to co-ordinate 24 people into a cohesive force capable of however many trips it takes to outfit thier members.  I understand that this is not inclusive to all, nor all playstyles.  Thats fine. The way the mythical was set up guaranteed it would be a sales item.  The Fabled was supposed to be "everymans" weapon, but the way the mythical was implemented negated that.. the mythical is now "everymans" weapon, and it shouldn't be.   Mythical should never have been purchasable by any means.Thats my final statement.  </blockquote>So how would you prevent someone from 'purchasing' their mythical? After all, what's really being purchased is a spot in a raid. What sort of mechanic would you implement to prevent this sort of thing?

[Lasai]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Perhaps the standards of Endgame raid guilds have been misconstrued/misunderstood. That would explain why conflicts in standards seem to exist where there are none.</blockquote>And the debate between raid guilds who sell updates and those who do not also doesn't exist?  You make a statement of absolutes when you say "None".  Some guilds have elected not to sell updates, some have.  There is a conflict in standards, has been for some time, it just isn't discussed on this forum.Sometimes principals can't be bought, and for some guilds, they weren't.  I respect the guilds that stuck to their ideal that End Game had to be somewhat earned in the face of piles of easy plat.  For what its worth,  I can respect thier opinions because they held to them.I still support End Game Raid items being the province of dedicated end game raiders.  I respect the idea that items be reserved for people who take the time to co-ordinate 24 people into a cohesive force capable of however many trips it takes to outfit thier members.  I understand that this is not inclusive to all, nor all playstyles.  Thats fine. The way the mythical was set up guaranteed it would be a sales item.  The Fabled was supposed to be "everymans" weapon, but the way the mythical was implemented negated that.. the mythical is now "everymans" weapon, and it shouldn't be.   Mythical should never have been purchasable by any means.Thats my final statement.  </blockquote>So how would you prevent someone from 'purchasing' their mythical? After all, what's really being purchased is a spot in a raid. What sort of mechanic would you implement to prevent this sort of thing?</blockquote>You asked, I'll answer, and I expect to be royally flamed for it.   Mythicals used to drop from Server first kills only, correct me if wrong.  They were that rare.  Mythical.  They deserved a server wide announcement.  IIRC it was random profession.. and certainly not awarded to the entire raid.  Once the server first was done, no more Mythical..I highly doubt any were purchased under that system.  Again, feel free to correct any assuptions I may be mistaken about.. I saw very few Mythical announcements prior to the current mythical coming in.For the final step I would have implemented a separate instance of VP that rewarded the entire raid a mythical if won.... then perma locked them out of it on success.  Harsh, I know, but Mythical should be just that.  24 people working together to ALL get thier mythical, ... not some yawning group running through for the umteenth time carrying a warm body with them.Yes it would have been rough on alts, friends, casuals, new members, all the "what abouts" blah blah etc etc.  So what.  It is a Mythical. The original awarding of Mythicals was far meaner.  People need to grasp that the Fabled is the entitlement... not the Mythical.K, feel free to beat me up, and seriously, Im out of this thread.

[Davngr1]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Perhaps the standards of Endgame raid guilds have been misconstrued/misunderstood. That would explain why conflicts in standards seem to exist where there are none.</blockquote>And the debate between raid guilds who sell updates and those who do not also doesn't exist?  You make a statement of absolutes when you say "None".  Some guilds have elected not to sell updates, some have.  There is a conflict in standards, has been for some time, it just isn't discussed on this forum.Sometimes principals can't be bought, and for some guilds, they weren't.  I respect the guilds that stuck to their ideal that End Game had to be somewhat earned in the face of piles of easy plat.  For what its worth,  I can respect thier opinions because they held to them.I still support End Game Raid items being the province of dedicated end game raiders.  I respect the idea that items be reserved for people who take the time to co-ordinate 24 people into a cohesive force capable of however many trips it takes to outfit thier members.  I understand that this is not inclusive to all, nor all playstyles.  Thats fine. The way the mythical was set up guaranteed it would be a sales item.  The Fabled was supposed to be "everymans" weapon, but the way the mythical was implemented negated that.. the mythical is now "everymans" weapon, and it shouldn't be.   Mythical should never have been purchasable by any means.Thats my final statement.  </blockquote>So how would you prevent someone from 'purchasing' their mythical? After all, what's really being purchased is a spot in a raid. What sort of mechanic would you implement to prevent this sort of thing?</blockquote>You asked, I'll answer, and I expect to be royally flamed for it.   Mythicals used to drop from Server first kills only, correct me if wrong.  They were that rare.  Mythical.  They deserved a server wide announcement.  IIRC it was random profession.. and certainly not awarded to the entire raid.  Once the server first was done, no more Mythical..I highly doubt any were purchased under that system.  Again, feel free to correct any assuptions I may be mistaken about.. I saw very few Mythical announcements prior to the current mythical coming in.For the final step I would have implemented a separate instance of VP that rewarded the entire raid a mythical if won.... then perma locked them out of it on success.  Harsh, I know, but Mythical should be just that.  24 people working together to ALL get thier mythical, ... not some yawning group running through for the umteenth time carrying a warm body with them.Yes it would have been rough on alts, friends, casuals, etc etc.  So what.  It is a Mythical.K, feel free to beat me up, and seriously, Im out of this thread.</blockquote><p>  so how do new members and alts get myths?  after all they are basicly getting *ran thru* as well, right?</p><p>edit.  waht im trying to say.. if your gonna ride the *high horse* then you better be sure no mud gets on ya.   </p><p> i rember gaining great respect for a guild in my server back in the DoF days because they beat god king with their mains then rolled an alt guild, then beat god king again with the alt guild for up dates, instead of just holding the zone open. </p>

[Faenril]

<cite>Lancestorm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Why does SOE emphasize hardcore gamers?</p></blockquote><b>Hardcore gamers may argue that SOE made change after change to make the game more friendly to casual gamers since 2 years.When will it be enough ?From a finuncial point of view, hardcore gamers tend to hook with a product for longer, as they invested much more time in their toons, which is also interesting for SOE.</b></blockquote><p>I dont agrre with this at all. There are people that have played this game from day 1 and are not raiders at all but have 4,5 or more level 80 characters. Is this not considered hardcore? just not in a raiding aspect. But i bet they have twice the play time as so called "hardcore raiders".</p><p>I fully agree if a pickup raid can clear VP content then more power to them, someone said that it takes attendance and dedication in a guild to clear VP, what i say to that is BS, if a pickup raid can coordinate enough to clear VP then i say those people have better skills than a person that raids with the same people everyday.</p><p>Those same hardcore raiders have wiped just as many times as a pickup raid, perhaps less because of familarity, learning the encounter as a pick up raid would. Just getting past Nexona is a pain in the rump because of the shinies alone, if they clear it then they deserve anything they reap.</p><p>SoE has to make a product that will appeal to every type of player, not the 20% that raid hardcaore consistanly, if they did EQ2 would have died off by now and thats not good business. I agree that hard core gamers "hook" faster but they also "flee' faster too, they get bored to fast. So far SoE has stood the test of time and hopefully with the next expansion will get people back to EQ, but my feeling is that this expansion will be the "deal" breaker for some and a "god send' for others.</p></blockquote>Regarding 1st part, what do you actually disagree with ?Where did I imply hardcore = raider ?Plenty of hardcore players do not raid, and some casual players do raid (ok not that many :p).I only pointed that the statement "SOE emphasize hardcore players" is plain wrong, as SOE keeps making the game more casual friendly (not judging, just saying).Whether those hardcore players are raiders or not does not matter here.Regarding the rest I agree if a pickup can kill nexona more power to them,  let them clear VP and get mythicals, but anyway I don't see the relationship with the quoted post, so I don't feel the need to comment further <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Noaani]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>You asked, I'll answer, and I expect to be royally flamed for it.   Mythicals used to drop from Server first kills only, correct me if wrong.  They were that rare.  Mythical.  They deserved a server wide announcement.  IIRC it was random profession.. and certainly not awarded to the entire raid.  Once the server first was done, no more Mythical..I highly doubt any were purchased under that system.  Again, feel free to correct any assuptions I may be mistaken about.. I saw very few Mythical announcements prior to the current mythical coming in.For the final step I would have implemented a separate instance of VP that rewarded the entire raid a mythical if won.... then perma locked them out of it on success.  Harsh, I know, but Mythical should be just that.  24 people working together to ALL get thier mythical, ... not some yawning group running through for the umteenth time carrying a warm body with them.Yes it would have been rough on alts, friends, casuals, new members, all the "what abouts" blah blah etc etc.  So what.  It is a Mythical. The original awarding of Mythicals was far meaner.  People need to grasp that the Fabled is the entitlement... not the Mythical.K, feel free to beat me up, and seriously, Im out of this thread.</blockquote><p>You are partially getting mythical and artifact mixed up.</p><p>For a start, roll a toon on Najena, go to the broker, look up mythical items, and you have the first ever raid dropped mythical in the game avalible for purchase. That kills your idea of mythical items never having been sold.</p><p>You seem to be more interested in the mythical tag and server spam than the item. Why?</p>

[Eadon]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>People need to grasp that the Fabled is the entitlement.</blockquote>Since when?

[Illine]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Perhaps the standards of Endgame raid guilds have been misconstrued/misunderstood. That would explain why conflicts in standards seem to exist where there are none.</blockquote>And the debate between raid guilds who sell updates and those who do not also doesn't exist?  You make a statement of absolutes when you say "None".  Some guilds have elected not to sell updates, some have.  There is a conflict in standards, has been for some time, it just isn't discussed on this forum.Sometimes principals can't be bought, and for some guilds, they weren't.  I respect the guilds that stuck to their ideal that End Game had to be somewhat earned in the face of piles of easy plat.  For what its worth,  I can respect thier opinions because they held to them.I still support End Game Raid items being the province of dedicated end game raiders.  I respect the idea that items be reserved for people who take the time to co-ordinate 24 people into a cohesive force capable of however many trips it takes to outfit thier members.  I understand that this is not inclusive to all, nor all playstyles.  Thats fine. The way the mythical was set up guaranteed it would be a sales item.  The Fabled was supposed to be "everymans" weapon, but the way the mythical was implemented negated that.. the mythical is now "everymans" weapon, and it shouldn't be.   Mythical should never have been purchasable by any means.Thats my final statement.  </blockquote>So how would you prevent someone from 'purchasing' their mythical? After all, what's really being purchased is a spot in a raid. What sort of mechanic would you implement to prevent this sort of thing?</blockquote>You asked, I'll answer, and I expect to be royally flamed for it.   Mythicals used to drop from Server first kills only, correct me if wrong.  They were that rare.  Mythical.  They deserved a server wide announcement.  IIRC it was random profession.. and certainly not awarded to the entire raid.  Once the server first was done, no more Mythical..I highly doubt any were purchased under that system.  Again, feel free to correct any assuptions I may be mistaken about.. I saw very few Mythical announcements prior to the current mythical coming in.For the final step I would have implemented a separate instance of VP that rewarded the entire raid a mythical if won.... then perma locked them out of it on success.  Harsh, I know, but Mythical should be just that.  24 people working together to ALL get thier mythical, ... not some yawning group running through for the umteenth time carrying a warm body with them.Yes it would have been rough on alts, friends, casuals, new members, all the "what abouts" blah blah etc etc.  So what.  It is a Mythical. The original awarding of Mythicals was far meaner.  People need to grasp that the Fabled is the entitlement... not the Mythical.K, feel free to beat me up, and seriously, Im out of this thread.</blockquote><p>they hanged the way it worked.</p><p>Before only the first/best guild in the server could have a mythical object, but in today's game, people would have complained, why can't they have the mythical??</p><p>Plus in a post pre-RoK I think, where devs were explaining how raids would work, it was writen that for Trakanon, you would need the mythical to kill him. If mythicals were one per server, this would have meant only few guilds could have killed him.</p><p>whether you like it or not, now EQ2 is not a HARDCORE game, it's casual friendly so even non hardcore players can have great items and finish the extension. sure people take advantage of this. like you pay to get your mythical. then what's the big deal? if one is willing to pay for it, let it be. Does it change the way you play? no.</p><p>some want the mythical just for fame, some see it as a tool to improve their character, and so on. I see the mythical as a tool to be more effective in raids. even if i's nice to have great gear, I don't raid to be the best of my class, I just get equiped to be able to stay alive after an AE, to dps a minimum and be usefull. Now if people like to show how great they are, good for them, I honnestly don't care, I play and what they do won't change the way I play.</p><p>people need to work for their mythical. some have work to get a lot of money to buy it, some have work a lot to learn strategies, and so on. some have managed to validate it by joining a raid guild after they validated everything and so what? the guild will validate the mythical of the apply, because they need for him to be well equiped to raid the content.</p><p>things have always worked that way.</p>

[Dasein]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Perhaps the standards of Endgame raid guilds have been misconstrued/misunderstood. That would explain why conflicts in standards seem to exist where there are none.</blockquote>And the debate between raid guilds who sell updates and those who do not also doesn't exist?  You make a statement of absolutes when you say "None".  Some guilds have elected not to sell updates, some have.  There is a conflict in standards, has been for some time, it just isn't discussed on this forum.Sometimes principals can't be bought, and for some guilds, they weren't.  I respect the guilds that stuck to their ideal that End Game had to be somewhat earned in the face of piles of easy plat.  For what its worth,  I can respect thier opinions because they held to them.I still support End Game Raid items being the province of dedicated end game raiders.  I respect the idea that items be reserved for people who take the time to co-ordinate 24 people into a cohesive force capable of however many trips it takes to outfit thier members.  I understand that this is not inclusive to all, nor all playstyles.  Thats fine. The way the mythical was set up guaranteed it would be a sales item.  The Fabled was supposed to be "everymans" weapon, but the way the mythical was implemented negated that.. the mythical is now "everymans" weapon, and it shouldn't be.   Mythical should never have been purchasable by any means.Thats my final statement.  </blockquote>So how would you prevent someone from 'purchasing' their mythical? After all, what's really being purchased is a spot in a raid. What sort of mechanic would you implement to prevent this sort of thing?</blockquote>You asked, I'll answer, and I expect to be royally flamed for it.   Mythicals used to drop from Server first kills only, correct me if wrong.  They were that rare.  Mythical.  They deserved a server wide announcement.  IIRC it was random profession.. and certainly not awarded to the entire raid.  Once the server first was done, no more Mythical..I highly doubt any were purchased under that system.  Again, feel free to correct any assuptions I may be mistaken about.. I saw very few Mythical announcements prior to the current mythical coming in.For the final step I would have implemented a separate instance of VP that rewarded the entire raid a mythical if won.... then perma locked them out of it on success.  Harsh, I know, but Mythical should be just that.  24 people working together to ALL get thier mythical, ... not some yawning group running through for the umteenth time carrying a warm body with them.Yes it would have been rough on alts, friends, casuals, new members, all the "what abouts" blah blah etc etc.  So what.  It is a Mythical. The original awarding of Mythicals was far meaner.  People need to grasp that the Fabled is the entitlement... not the Mythical.K, feel free to beat me up, and seriously, Im out of this thread.</blockquote>If they changed the tag to fabled, but kept the items the same, would that make you feel better about the situation?If you make the mythical version so rare that only a handful of people in the entire game ever get them, then it becomes wasted effort on the part of the devs. Developing 24 unique items, with unique powers and back-end mechanics is not effort that should go to waste. This means these items need to be common enough that some players get them and many players see themselves as having a viable shot at getting them. under your plan, mythical epic weapons might as well not exist, they'd be that rare.

[woolf2k]

no. it should, also,  be a 5th year reward for every character in the account. woot!

[DragonMaster2385]

I don't have my mythical yet, but we got VP flagged and we are on our way to killing the first dragon. No, Mythicals should not be able to be achived by killing easy mobs. These weapons are the end goal for characters, so if you make them easy to get it, there is little point to keep going until the expansion comes out. If you get a PU raid for VP, then yes, I imagine that you will be able to get mythicals with a PU raid, but there is no need to make them easier to get. In all honesty, when SOE releases the next expansion (after TSO) and the level cap is increased to 90, about 6 months later, they will change it so only one person (or maybe a handfull of people) needs to be flagged for VP for the raid to enter. When that happens and you get to 90, you will easily be able to get a PU raid to get mythicals. Want them sooner? Work real hard in a guild and earn them.

[Dagorgil]

<cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>In all honesty, when SOE releases the next expansion (after TSO) and the level cap is increased to 90, about 6 months later, they will change it so only one person (or maybe a handfull of people) needs to be flagged for VP for the raid to enter. When that happens and you get to 90, you will easily be able to get a PU raid to get mythicals. Want them sooner? Work real hard in a guild and earn them.</blockquote>I hope SOE handles the next couple expansions a little better than that.  I would prefer to keep leveling the same speed as it is currently, and just make AAs a little easier to get at level cap, insert more things like LDoN stuff from EQ1, and make more of an effort on an actual storyline rather than a meaningless subplot.

[crunn]

<p>hmm... mythicals...</p><p>I'd love my mythical, i know its never going to happen, kinda annoys me.</p><p>I play lots of hours proably as many as the hardcore raiders, i have almost 3000 quests complete on my main, almost 5 lvl 80 toons and 7 lvl 80 crafters. So you see the time and dedication i put in. But i will never have my mythical simply because im not in a raid guild and im not prepared to pay upwards of 700p for them to drag me round on AF. The money is obscene and i want the satisfaction of actualy doing it not paying someone to do it for me.</p><p>The mythicals as you all know give exeptionaly powerful abilities and ive been striving to getting the fable to start with. Finaly got the fable a couple months back after months of trying to get the updates. Been reading up on whats actualy involved in getting the Mythical. LOL Its never going to happen.</p><p>I find the stupidest setup for raiding i could ever have imagined with T8. You have to unlock each raid zone one at a time by finishing the one before, each person in the raid has to be on the appropriate unlocked zone step to get in. I've been asking raid guilds if i can come allong with them just to raid to help out and get me some unlocks while there, but all without exception say "no we only raid as a guild". Ive been searching for pickup raids but they just dont happen, Ive tried starting my own pickupraids, but its imposible to find 24 people online that want to raid at the same time and are at the same T8 raid unlock step as you.</p><p>So heres the part where you all say "for all the time you play and all the effort you put in JOIN A RAID GUILD ALREADY!!"  well... I cant do that. First im the guild leader of a fairly large and active guild, Im not just going to up and leave for a few months to get my mythical (many raid guilds dont accept new members and none will help new members with their mythical untill they have been there a good while. so they dont help people that are just going to leave right after). Oh and there arent nearly enough people at lvl 80 in my guild to raid T8. Second I hate the agressive militay style of all the raid guilds ive had experience with, there is no "fun" in the way they play eq2.</p><p>So yea im annoyed. Despite the considerable time effort and dedication i have to EQ2 there is no way i can get my mythical. and worse no way i can even raid anymore. I used to enjoy the ocasional raid back at T5-7. RoK has reduced me and many others to solo play with the ocasional group and no raids.</p><p>Never mind I'll just start a new alt.</p>

[DragonMaster2385]

<cite>crunn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>hmm... mythicals...</p><p>I'd love my mythical, i know its never going to happen, kinda annoys me.</p><p>I play lots of hours proably as many as the hardcore raiders, i have almost 3000 quests complete on my main, almost 5 lvl 80 toons and 7 lvl 80 crafters. So you see the time and dedication i put in. But i will never have my mythical simply because im not in a raid guild and im not prepared to pay upwards of 700p for them to drag me round on AF. The money is obscene and i want the satisfaction of actualy doing it not paying someone to do it for me.</p><p>The mythicals as you all know give exeptionaly powerful abilities and ive been striving to getting the fable to start with. Finaly got the fable a couple months back after months of trying to get the updates. Been reading up on whats actualy involved in getting the Mythical. LOL Its never going to happen.</p><p>I find the stupidest setup for raiding i could ever have imagined with T8. You have to unlock each raid zone one at a time by finishing the one before, each person in the raid has to be on the appropriate unlocked zone step to get in. I've been asking raid guilds if i can come allong with them just to raid to help out and get me some unlocks while there, but all without exception say "no we only raid as a guild". Ive been searching for pickup raids but they just dont happen, Ive tried starting my own pickupraids, but its imposible to find 24 people online that want to raid at the same time and are at the same T8 raid unlock step as you.</p><p>So heres the part where you all say "for all the time you play and all the effort you put in JOIN A RAID GUILD ALREADY!!"  well... I cant do that. First im the guild leader of a fairly large and active guild, Im not just going to up and leave for a few months to get my mythical (many raid guilds dont accept new members and none will help new members with their mythical untill they have been there a good while. so they dont help people that are just going to leave right after). Oh and there arent nearly enough people at lvl 80 in my guild to raid T8. Second I hate the agressive militay style of all the raid guilds ive had experience with, there is no "fun" in the way they play eq2.</p><p>So yea im annoyed. Despite the considerable time effort and dedication i have to EQ2 there is no way i can get my mythical. and worse no way i can even raid anymore. I used to enjoy the ocasional raid back at T5-7. RoK has reduced me and many others to solo play with the ocasional group and no raids.</p><p>Never mind I'll just start a new alt.</p></blockquote>It comes down the matter of content aquired compared to content being completed.  Do you need your mythical to do VoES?  Hell no; talk about over kill.  The mythical items are almost needed for the hardest mobs in the game.  You aquire items that compare to what you are completing; it has nothing to do with how much time you have invested in the game.  In essence, someone could get thier mythical in two weeks after they get thier fabled.  Join a raiding guild, get your first update one night.  Your tier 2 update the next night.  Get VP flagged the night after.  And that leaves you with a week to get the kill you need in VP.  Sorry, but someone can get a mythical with little to no time at all if they played thier cards right, so it doesn't matter how many hours you have spent crafting or doing solo quests.And you only have to be flagged for one update, and that is VP.  To get flagged for VP, all you have to do is get an easy kill in CoD (Leviathan).  That takes 45 minutes to do if your guild has done it before.  No, do not expect to get in a PU raid until the level cap is level 90.  Getting stuff accomplished in VP takes a lot of teamwork and practice, so unless you get 23 regular raiders that happen to be off for the night and don't plan on doing VP with their guild for a week, it isn't going to happen.  You want good raid guild with PU raids, Protector's Realm is an awesome place to go.  No trash to kill, great money drops, easy nameds, and pretty good items.

[Vumael]

<cite>Jovie@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Here is a simple reason why it should be more accessible to non hardcore raiders.</p><p>Raiders who have their mythical use that same weapon against non raid targets all the time. It isn't limited to raid only mobs.</p><p>Just because a person is a raider does not justify the raiders controlling the broker market.</p></blockquote>The same could be said for every good item in the game, higher risk = higher reward.   Deal with it.

[DragonMaster2385]

<cite>Vumael wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jovie@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Here is a simple reason why it should be more accessible to non hardcore raiders.</p><p>Raiders who have their mythical use that same weapon against non raid targets all the time. It isn't limited to raid only mobs.</p><p>Just because a person is a raider does not justify the raiders controlling the broker market.</p></blockquote>The same could be said for every good item in the game, higher risk = higher reward.   Deal with it.</blockquote><p>Lol, very true.  People sometimes have a hard time understanding the risk vs reward situation and how important it is to the life of an MMO.  </p><p>And what do raiders getting mythicals and using them against all targets have to do with controlling the broker market?  Nothing at all; you can't sell items earned on raids on the broker, so what point are you trying to make?</p>

[Vumael]

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You are kidding right?</p><p>SoE made the fabled ones for the not so hardcore people.</p><p>Quit being jealous and setting your goals so high if you don't have the time to put in to get your mythical.</p></blockquote><p>I don't think it's so much about time.  It's about the numbers.  A lot of people play just as much as raiders do but they are still considered casual.  Personally I play a lot but I am in a small guild of real life friends.  On any given night we only have 4-5 people on with a max around 10.   This is the main reason why I think raid content should be concentrated on a maximum of two groups.  It would enable even the smallest guild to achieve end game and make all content available to everyone.  I can't even get my family together on a weekend much less assemble 24 strangers for a ten hour raid.</p><p>So your forced to make a choice.  Stay with your friends and do without or join a guild filled with hundreds of strangers just to get some loot.  I have chosen the former.</p><p>I'm sure, eventually pickup raids will be taking down Veeshan's Peak and obtaining Mythicals but it will take some time for the content to become trivial enough to where pickup raids are not just wiping out the entire time.  </p><p>I was able to get my Mark of Awakened in a pickup raid and I was the only player in my guild to have one.  I'm positive that eventually I will also have a mythical.  The demand is there, and the pickups will be trying.</p></blockquote><p>1.) Join a better guild, you're choosing to not get the mythical</p><p>2.) Your solution would not work in practice.  The smaller raids get the more hardcore gamers can exploit it, they'll still play more, play better and have better items, they'll just be able to do zones and instances multiple times over for even more loot.</p><p> Want a mythical while playing with your friends?  Make your own raiding guild, you don't need one.</p>

[Vumael]

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>You say "If you don't raid, you don't need Mythical".  <p>But I am a SK.I can hardly keep aggro in Runnyeye: the gathering with players who have Mythicals.Jovie has a really good point.<cite> </cite></p><p><cite><a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:Jovie@Guk" target="_blank">Jovie@Guk</a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here is a simple reason why it should be more accessible to non hardcore raiders.</p><p>Raiders who have their mythical use that same weapon against non raid targets all the time. It isn't limited to raid only mobs.</p></blockquote><p>There are a lot of times when I play with the players with Mythicals.When I play with the players with Mythicals, I will come under the influence of Mythicals, regardless of my wishes.I can't keep aggro.But, hey, wait. Must not I need Mythical if I don't raid?But there are really the situations that I need Mythical to keep aggro with the other characters with Mythicals.Runnyeye: the gathering, Veksar....</p><p>Yes, I need Mythical even if I don't raid(Actually, I have enjoyed pick up raids).</p></blockquote><p>1.)  There is a design flaw with SKs for tanking / hate issues (blame the devs.)</p><p>2.)  Join a high end raid guild if you want a mythical.</p>

[Vumael]

<p>Seriously, where do people get off with these ridiculous arguments?  The epic in EQ1 was much much harder to aquire than it is in EQ2 and parts were raid oriented (many parts contested also.)  I actually thought this epic was wayy too easy and too many noobs would get it (I was right.)</p><p>If you don't put the time and effort in, don't expect to get what you want.  If you want it under your conditions make your own guild.  Don't try to dumb up this game just because it doesn't suit how you play not being able to get everything in it, because honestly with a play schedule like that you'll never be satisfied, there will always be something that requires too much for you to get.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>People need to grasp that the Fabled is the entitlement... not the Mythical.</blockquote>I agree with some of your line of thinking but not this. The only thing players are entitled to is a set of level 1 noobie gear, some crappy food/water, and a torch.

[Teh_Person]

Mythical oughta be left to the best guilds. It's a matter of risk vs reward, and mythical is the best reward in the game. Therefore it ought to have the highest risk/hardest difficulty to get. Simple formula. You want the lesser versions, you can get them. That's what they're there for. But people willing to work for the BEST should get it, not the same thing everyone else has.

[LygerT]

<p>unless EVERYONE were given mythicals it would imbalance the game and don't expect that to happen.</p><p>this is a silly topic and i don't understand how some people can really expect to get the best items in game for simply logging in.</p>

[Giral]

<p>Vumael wrote : 1.)  There is a design flaw with SKs for tanking / hate issues (blame the devs.)</p><p>nah , there is no design flaw, i have tanked every instance in the game, and have raided since t-5 on my sk, i have Mt and OT Raids and havea Main MT and Main OT in Rok on raids.  and other Sk's are tanking Endgame Rok raids </p><p>the class is/was/and always has been a harder class to use to perform the same job, Sk's always have been capable in filling the role and have done so and have MT'ed and Ot'ed 99.9 % of the game </p><p>in ROK its is widely know Sk's were underpowered compared to other plate tanks , but the funny thing is they still succeded in performing there role in raids even with Less... doesnt say much for the better powred and over powered classes that struggled lol</p><p> i dont have my Mythical on my SK and i have Tanked for various groups some with mythical and some without, if someone is constantly ganking agro I would Not blame there mythical i would blame the player behind the class.</p><p>Saying people need Mythicals for group zones becuase others have them is Ludicris, i DO not Want my mythical until i Earn it, if Agro is a little harder to work for, if some clases need to reel in there dps a bit more to stop pulling agro , then to me that Equals More challanging group play , People actualy using there Skills for Agro, and deagro and working as a Team to complete a zone.  if you have some jerkhead pulling constant agro BOOT there behind from the group ( after a few private tells asking them to back off Please ) if they have there Mythical chances are they know how to play there class better then pulling agro every 2 seconds </p><p>and onother thing is Raiders in group zones are use to Burning thru them , even IF agro bounces fights are usualy over in the blink of an Eye , and even a warlock could survive Tanking with raid healers, so to Some DPS classes when they pull Agro in group zones its just business as usual for them , there use to a raid tank grabbin agro back,or agro tranfer being used , etc ,,,  so somethimes you might ave to send them a tell and say " could you please ease up a bit, i am the tank and id like to tank )  becuase it is possible they dont even realize them pulling agro is upsetting you . </p>

[crunn]

<p>I agree that the Mythical should be very hard.</p><p>What i have a problem with is that part of making it so hard sony put in the unlocking tier raids thing for T8. you have to compete all the raids in order to unlock them. Which has killed pickup raids. Ive never seen a pickup raid for T8 and ive tried starting them but not one person replied lol.</p><p>Another problem is the arrogant elitist attitude of the harcore raid guilds. They all completely refuse to raid with non-guildies. Few reply to tells. Almost none of them accept new members and the two that do refuse to help with your mythical untill you have been a memeber for several months (ok i can understand that part, they dont want people using them for the updates then leaving)</p><p>Sony has killed raiding for all but the 5 or 6 hardcore raid guilds. And those raid guilds have killed any chance of others getting their mythical.</p><p>Im off to play my 15 defiler in darklight its actualy fun no raiders in sight.</p>

[Kizee]

<cite>crunn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree that the Mythical should be very hard.</p><p>What i have a problem with is that part of making it so hard sony put in the unlocking tier raids thing for T8. you have to compete all the raids in order to unlock them. Which has killed pickup raids. Ive never seen a pickup raid for T8 and ive tried starting them but not one person replied lol.</p><p>Another problem is the arrogant elitist attitude of the harcore raid guilds. They all completely refuse to raid with non-guildies. Few reply to tells. Almost none of them accept new members and the two that do refuse to help with your mythical untill you have been a memeber for several months (ok i can understand that part, they dont want people using them for the updates then leaving)</p><p>Sony has killed raiding for all but the 5 or 6 hardcore raid guilds. And those raid guilds have killed any chance of others getting their mythical.</p><p>Im off to play my 15 defiler in darklight its actualy fun no raiders in sight.</p></blockquote>LOLI assure you that there are more than 5 or 6 guilds that have thier mythicals.Might want to look at yourself for blame for not being able to get your mythical instead of blaming those "evil raiders" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Vumael]

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Vumael wrote : 1.)  There is a design flaw with SKs for tanking / hate issues (blame the devs.)</p><p><b>the class is/was/and always has been a harder class to use to perform the same job</b>, Sk's always have been capable in filling the role and have done so and have MT'ed and Ot'ed 99.9 % of the game </p></blockquote>Thank you for supporting my point.

[Vumael]

<cite>crunn wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>What i have a problem with is that part of making it so hard sony put in the unlocking tier raids thing for T8. you have to compete all the raids in order to unlock them. Which has killed pickup raids. Ive never seen a pickup raid for T8 and ive tried starting them but not one person replied lol.</p><p>Another problem is the arrogant elitist attitude of the harcore raid guilds. They all completely refuse to raid with non-guildies. Few reply to tells. </p></blockquote><p>All you have to kill right now to get into VP is Leviathan.  I would prefer more zones to unlock VP actually.</p><p>Why should hardcore raiders who work harder for what they get raid with non - guildees and waste their time on what other people who don't help them at all do?  </p><p> There's no incentive to help someone playing a game if it earns you nothing, that's just ridiculous.  It isn't that hardcore raiders are selfish for not helping, helping would be generous.  Not helping is indifference, they're not asking you for help so they treat you as they treat themselves, capable of doing things for yourself.</p>

[Vumael]

<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>crunn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree that the Mythical should be very hard.</p><p>What i have a problem with is that part of making it so hard sony put in the unlocking tier raids thing for T8. you have to compete all the raids in order to unlock them. Which has killed pickup raids. Ive never seen a pickup raid for T8 and ive tried starting them but not one person replied lol.</p><p>Another problem is the arrogant elitist attitude of the harcore raid guilds. They all completely refuse to raid with non-guildies. Few reply to tells. Almost none of them accept new members and the two that do refuse to help with your mythical untill you have been a memeber for several months (ok i can understand that part, they dont want people using them for the updates then leaving)</p><p>Sony has killed raiding for all but the 5 or 6 hardcore raid guilds. And those raid guilds have killed any chance of others getting their mythical.</p><p>Im off to play my 15 defiler in darklight its actualy fun no raiders in sight.</p></blockquote>LOLI assure you that there are more than 5 or 6 guilds that have thier mythicals.Might want to look at yourself for blame for not being able to get your mythical instead of blaming those "evil raiders" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>I think he meant per server respectively.</p><p>I agree, blame yourself no one else for what you don't have unless there is a clear design issue.  There isn't.</p>

[woolf2k]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>unless EVERYONE were given mythicals it would imbalance the game and don't expect that to happen.</p><p>this is a silly topic and i don't understand how some people can really expect to get the best items in game for simply logging in.</p></blockquote>cause I've been playing for 5years! hey. I should get one for the characters on said account cause I've been around for that time and it's not my fault i can't get a raid to finish it. So I should get it anyway...it's only fair. let's hear it for 5th year reward mythical award!!

[Vumael]

<cite>Jaine@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>unless EVERYONE were given mythicals it would imbalance the game and don't expect that to happen.</p><p>this is a silly topic and i don't understand how some people can really expect to get the best items in game for simply logging in.</p></blockquote>cause I've been playing for 5years! hey. I should get one for the characters on said account cause I've been around for that time and it's not my fault i can't get a raid to finish it. So I should get it anyway...it's only fair. let's hear it for 5th year reward mythical award!!</blockquote><p>lol right, it's funny how people can in other posts claim they've been playing so long yet they don't know how EQ works by now (not accusing you, yeah I did get the sarcasm lol.)</p>

[Lasai]

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>People need to grasp that the Fabled is the entitlement... not the Mythical.</blockquote>I agree with some of your line of thinking but not this. The only thing players are entitled to is a set of level 1 noobie gear, some crappy food/water, and a torch.</blockquote>Actually I agree with you 100%, but thats not the direction SOE is going.

[Thunndar316]

<cite>Teh_Person wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mythical oughta be left to the best guilds. It's a matter of risk vs reward, and mythical is the best reward in the game. Therefore it ought to have the highest risk/hardest difficulty to get. Simple formula. You want the lesser versions, you can get them. That's what they're there for. But people willing to work for the BEST should get it, not the same thing everyone else has.</blockquote><p>What risk?  There is no risk.  You assemble 24 people and try something until you figure it out.  That's all it is.  You die, lose nothing, and try again.</p><p>Sure you put a lot of time in it and sure it's hard to do but you're not risking anymore than the guy out there trying to solo.   </p>

[Vumael]

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Teh_Person wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mythical oughta be left to the best guilds. It's a matter of risk vs reward, and mythical is the best reward in the game. Therefore it ought to have the highest risk/hardest difficulty to get. Simple formula. You want the lesser versions, you can get them. That's what they're there for. But people willing to work for the BEST should get it, not the same thing everyone else has.</blockquote><p>What risk?  There is no risk.  You assemble 24 people and try something until you figure it out.  That's all it is.  You die, lose nothing, and try again.</p><p>Sure you put a lot of time in it and sure it's hard to do but you're not risking anymore than the guy out there trying to solo.   </p></blockquote><p>It's about risk AND difficulty (nice job at taking things out of context while quoting,) while the risk is limited to something as little as wasting your time, those 24 people actively engaged in something more difficult.</p><p>It takes more concentration and more organization / coordination to accomplish something that requires 24 people, there is less room for error than soloing and it consumes much more peoples time.</p><p>Furthermore, if it's that trivial, as easy as soloing you wouldn't complain, clearly the same option is available to you.  </p><p> Go do it.</p>

[simpwrx02]

<cite>Vumael wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>crunn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree that the Mythical should be very hard.</p><p>What i have a problem with is that part of making it so hard sony put in the unlocking tier raids thing for T8. you have to compete all the raids in order to unlock them. Which has killed pickup raids. Ive never seen a pickup raid for T8 and ive tried starting them but not one person replied lol.</p><p>Another problem is the arrogant elitist attitude of the harcore raid guilds. They all completely refuse to raid with non-guildies. Few reply to tells. Almost none of them accept new members and the two that do refuse to help with your mythical untill you have been a memeber for several months (ok i can understand that part, they dont want people using them for the updates then leaving)</p><p>Sony has killed raiding for all but the 5 or 6 hardcore raid guilds. And those raid guilds have killed any chance of others getting their mythical.</p><p>Im off to play my 15 defiler in darklight its actualy fun no raiders in sight.</p></blockquote>LOLI assure you that there are more than 5 or 6 guilds that have thier mythicals.Might want to look at yourself for blame for not being able to get your mythical instead of blaming those "evil raiders" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>I think he meant per server respectively.</p><p>I agree, blame yourself no one else for what you don't have unless there is a clear design issue.  There isn't.</p></blockquote>I love these generalities, on Blackburow I woudl wager that close to 500-600 mythicals have been awarded, and most of them doen through guild raids, I dont think that one of the middl eof the road in population servers has 600  "hardcore" players.  Well maybe not 600, but there are 10 or 11 guilds that have cleared VP and many have more than gasp ... 24 people in the guild with mythicals.

[Thunndar316]

<cite>Vumael wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Teh_Person wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mythical oughta be left to the best guilds. It's a matter of risk vs reward, and mythical is the best reward in the game. Therefore it ought to have the highest risk/hardest difficulty to get. Simple formula. You want the lesser versions, you can get them. That's what they're there for. But people willing to work for the BEST should get it, not the same thing everyone else has.</blockquote><p>What risk?  There is no risk.  You assemble 24 people and try something until you figure it out.  That's all it is.  You die, lose nothing, and try again.</p><p>Sure you put a lot of time in it and sure it's hard to do but you're not risking anymore than the guy out there trying to solo.   </p></blockquote><p>It's about risk AND difficulty (nice job at taking things out of context while quoting,) while the risk is limited to something as little as wasting your time, those 24 people actively engaged in something more difficult.</p><p>It takes more concentration and more organization / coordination to accomplish something that requires 24 people, there is less room for error than soloing and it consumes much more peoples time.</p><p>Furthermore, if it's that trivial, as easy as soloing you wouldn't complain, clearly the same option is available to you.  </p><p> Go do it.</p></blockquote><p>I like my guild.  It's real life friends, small, friendly, and casual.  I'm not going to abandon my friends to suck up to a bunch of strangers so I can get some loot.  Nor will I be a slave for a bunch of strangers, raiding over and over 5 nights a week for months until im worthy enough for them to consider helping me.</p><p>However, if the raids required 12 or even 18 instead of 24 then we could assemble enough people to raid ourselves.  </p><p>It's OK if you like to treat this game as a full time job.  However, I would take soloing an alt and grouping with my friends over raiding with a bunch of egotistical know it alls like yourself.</p>

[Vumael]

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vumael wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Teh_Person wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mythical oughta be left to the best guilds. It's a matter of risk vs reward, and mythical is the best reward in the game. Therefore it ought to have the highest risk/hardest difficulty to get. Simple formula. You want the lesser versions, you can get them. That's what they're there for. But people willing to work for the BEST should get it, not the same thing everyone else has.</blockquote><p>What risk?  There is no risk.  You assemble 24 people and try something until you figure it out.  That's all it is.  You die, lose nothing, and try again.</p><p>Sure you put a lot of time in it and sure it's hard to do but you're not risking anymore than the guy out there trying to solo.   </p></blockquote><p>It's about risk AND difficulty (nice job at taking things out of context while quoting,) while the risk is limited to something as little as wasting your time, those 24 people actively engaged in something more difficult.</p><p>It takes more concentration and more organization / coordination to accomplish something that requires 24 people, there is less room for error than soloing and it consumes much more peoples time.</p><p>Furthermore, if it's that trivial, as easy as soloing you wouldn't complain, clearly the same option is available to you.  </p><p> Go do it.</p></blockquote><p>I like my guild.  It's real life friends, small, friendly, and casual.  I'm not going to abandon my friends to suck up to a bunch of strangers so I can get some loot.  Nor will I be a slave for a bunch of strangers, raiding over and over 5 nights a week for months until im worthy enough for them to consider helping me.</p><p>However, if the raids required 12 or even 18 instead of 24 then we could assemble enough people to raid ourselves.  </p><p>It's OK if you like to treat this game as a full time job.  However, I would take soloing an alt and grouping with my friends over raiding with a bunch of egotistical know it alls like yourself.</p></blockquote><p>As usual the name calling from someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.</p><p>I understand the situation you have, so why not make it a raiding guild?  Recruit people you like under the conditions you like.  Get to know them and aquire good people much like your friends, or pursue a guild that will take you all together.</p><p>What you as well as a lot of people don't understand is, you don't have to treat the game like a full time job to make progress.  Reckoning on Vox started doing VP raiding 3 nights a week only for 3 hours each night, and we made kills.  It has admittedly progressed from that, now its 4 nights a week and sometimes goes over 3 hours, and sometimes there are spot raids on off raid days.</p><p>Realisticly, we come off as "egotistical know it alls" because we are giving you simple advice.  You're making the choices you do, we aren't for you.  You want something and would rather name call and complain rather than actually aspire to completing the task laid out in front of you to get what you want.</p><p>I'm in a raid guild on a PvP server, the best on Vox (which doesn't say much,) and still get to go out whenever I want and don't attend every single raid.  If we can do it, you can too if you actually put in as much or even any effort but you choose not to......  (which is exactly why you don't have a mythical.)</p><p>A persons character (in real life and in the game) is built through adversity.</p>

[1jesse1]

<p>Mythicals aren't left to HC raid guilds.  Plenty of 3 day a week guilds can clear VP.  My guess is right after xpac launch there will be VP pick-up raids.  Don't despair!!!</p><p>~H</p>

[Kcirt]

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vumael wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Teh_Person wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mythical oughta be left to the best guilds. It's a matter of risk vs reward, and mythical is the best reward in the game. Therefore it ought to have the highest risk/hardest difficulty to get. Simple formula. You want the lesser versions, you can get them. That's what they're there for. But people willing to work for the BEST should get it, not the same thing everyone else has.</blockquote><p>What risk?  There is no risk.  You assemble 24 people and try something until you figure it out.  That's all it is.  You die, lose nothing, and try again.</p><p>Sure you put a lot of time in it and sure it's hard to do but you're not risking anymore than the guy out there trying to solo.   </p></blockquote><p>It's about risk AND difficulty (nice job at taking things out of context while quoting,) while the risk is limited to something as little as wasting your time, those 24 people actively engaged in something more difficult.</p><p>It takes more concentration and more organization / coordination to accomplish something that requires 24 people, there is less room for error than soloing and it consumes much more peoples time.</p><p>Furthermore, if it's that trivial, as easy as soloing you wouldn't complain, clearly the same option is available to you.  </p><p> Go do it.</p></blockquote><p>I like my guild.  It's real life friends, small, friendly, and casual.  I'm not going to abandon my friends to suck up to a bunch of strangers so I can get some loot.  Nor will I be a slave for a bunch of strangers, raiding over and over 5 nights a week for months until im worthy enough for them to consider helping me.</p><p>However, if the raids required 12 or even 18 instead of 24 then we could assemble enough people to raid ourselves.  </p><p>It's OK if you like to treat this game as a full time job.  However, I would take soloing an alt and grouping with my friends over raiding with a bunch of egotistical know it alls like yourself.</p></blockquote>Just because you raid a few hours a week (which is all that is needed to get mythicals) doesn't make it a full time job.It would be pointless for equal rewards to be accessable by solo players, moreover solo players who hate time sinks and don't want to spend "a full time jobs" worth of time on it.  That would leave no reward to killing the big scary dragon you have to go out of your way to find and sink hours into learning to kill it.You choose to stick with your friends/family, thats fine, but thats a CHOICE!  Learn that choices in life have TRADEOFFS, you can't have everything just because you want it and thinking everything else in the world around you should cater to the time you CHOOSE to spend in it is a laugh.You talk about slaving to a bunch of strangers?  Heres a thought, you can perhaps get to know people and make more friends?  As far as slaving, if it's not exciting to you, don't do it.  If you aren't willing to do something that takes effort, work or doing something that isn't fun, then you can choose (as you are doing currently) not to do it but if you want that item you've been drooling over you need to rethink your logic.Many guilds will sell loot including mythicals for plat, get farming or something.

[Lasai]

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vumael wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Teh_Person wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mythical oughta be left to the best guilds. It's a matter of risk vs reward, and mythical is the best reward in the game. Therefore it ought to have the highest risk/hardest difficulty to get. Simple formula. You want the lesser versions, you can get them. That's what they're there for. But people willing to work for the BEST should get it, not the same thing everyone else has.</blockquote><p>What risk?  There is no risk.  You assemble 24 people and try something until you figure it out.  That's all it is.  You die, lose nothing, and try again.</p><p>Sure you put a lot of time in it and sure it's hard to do but you're not risking anymore than the guy out there trying to solo.   </p></blockquote><p>It's about risk AND difficulty (nice job at taking things out of context while quoting,) while the risk is limited to something as little as wasting your time, those 24 people actively engaged in something more difficult.</p><p>It takes more concentration and more organization / coordination to accomplish something that requires 24 people, there is less room for error than soloing and it consumes much more peoples time.</p><p>Furthermore, if it's that trivial, as easy as soloing you wouldn't complain, clearly the same option is available to you.  </p><p> Go do it.</p></blockquote><p>I like my guild.  It's real life friends, small, friendly, and casual.  I'm not going to abandon my friends to suck up to a bunch of strangers so I can get some loot.  Nor will I be a slave for a bunch of strangers, raiding over and over 5 nights a week for months until im worthy enough for them to consider helping me.</p><p>However, if the raids required 12 or even 18 instead of 24 then we could assemble enough people to raid ourselves.  </p><p>It's OK if you like to treat this game as a full time job.  However, I would take soloing an alt and grouping with my friends over raiding with a bunch of egotistical know it alls like yourself.</p></blockquote>Live with your choices then.  There are a lot of challenges in game that are pretty impressive if done by a small, casual group of friends.  Just getting to GL 80 being one of them.Live in your skin and take rewards as intrinsic rather than materialistic.   End Game Raiding should be content for End Game Raiders.... and if you choose not to partake of that style of play by default you choose not to partake of the rewards given.  Pretty Simple.  By Raid standards, I stink.  MC gear, Adept 3s, some smatterings of Fabled/Legendary.  My guild stinks by Raid Standards.. 3 actives.  Big Deal... we set goals and have fun doing what we can do.. and just dinged 57 guild level with no purchased status.  To us.. we rock.. and thats all that matters.   I don't play to impress anyone but myself and the only goal that really matters is beating yourself.. whether it is the high end Raider dps'er squeezing a few more DPS into a Parse, or Sucky SK Me and my Guildie Sucky Warden duoing the young Dragon at 72 in our "casual scrub" gear.  I don't feel entitled to anything I can't earn by playing the game my way, because my way defines my choices, and Im perfectly happy with that.

[Vumael]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Live with your choices then.  There are a lot of challenges in game that are pretty impressive if done by a small, casual group of friends.  Just getting to GL 80 being one of them.Live in your skin and take rewards as intrinsic rather than materialistic.   End Game Raiding should be content for End Game Raiders.... and if you choose not to partake of that style of play by default you choose not to partake of the rewards given.  Pretty Simple.  By Raid standards, I stink.  MC gear, Adept 3s, some smatterings of Fabled/Legendary.  My guild stinks by Raid Standards.. 3 actives.  Big Deal... we set goals and have fun doing what we can do.. and just dinged 57 guild level with no purchased status.  To us.. we rock.. and thats all that matters.   I don't play to impress anyone but myself and the only goal that really matters is beating yourself.. whether it is the high end Raider dps'er squeezing a few more DPS into a Parse, or Sucky SK Me and my Guildie Sucky Warden duoing the young Dragon at 72 in our "casual scrub" gear.  I don't feel entitled to anything I can't earn by playing the game my way, because my way defines my choices, and Im perfectly happy with that.</blockquote><p>I give a lot more respect to someone such as yourself who is making progress because they choose to albeit maybe not as quickly as they could be but understanding that it is mainly based on their own choices.  Those who put the time and effort in get the rewards, and I'm sure you've had your own notworthy successes following that ethic that mean something to you based on your adversities and what you have to work with.</p>

[Thunndar316]

<p>I know im in the minority on the forums.  This is where the hardcore live and that's just fine.  However, this arguement goes beyond mythicals.  Personally I am happy getting a Fabled and I really don't care if I ever get a Mythical.</p><p>Also I would like to add that I can't try to get a Mythical yet because my main is only level 66, thank you very much.   </p><p>A lot of you keep stating this "risk vs. reward" thing and I really have to laugh at that.  You are not risking anything but your time, and time is wasted in this game whether you raid, group, solo, or run around in circles all day.  Reguardless of what you do in the game you are still using your personal time.  That's all.  </p><p>Now, my position and this applies to more than the Mythical arguement is that raiding needs to be opened up to a broader audience.  I don't understand this stubborn position of it must be 24 people.  Why?  Does it stroke your ego that much to want to keep other people from playing the same zones you do?  Would it really kill you if you saw a guild of say 20 indiviual accounts raiding VP?  </p><p>Why?</p>

[Thunndar316]

<cite>Vumael wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Live with your choices then.  There are a lot of challenges in game that are pretty impressive if done by a small, casual group of friends.  Just getting to GL 80 being one of them.Live in your skin and take rewards as intrinsic rather than materialistic.   End Game Raiding should be content for End Game Raiders.... and if you choose not to partake of that style of play by default you choose not to partake of the rewards given.  Pretty Simple.  By Raid standards, I stink.  MC gear, Adept 3s, some smatterings of Fabled/Legendary.  My guild stinks by Raid Standards.. 3 actives.  Big Deal... we set goals and have fun doing what we can do.. and just dinged 57 guild level with no purchased status.  To us.. we rock.. and thats all that matters.   I don't play to impress anyone but myself and the only goal that really matters is beating yourself.. whether it is the high end Raider dps'er squeezing a few more DPS into a Parse, or Sucky SK Me and my Guildie Sucky Warden duoing the young Dragon at 72 in our "casual scrub" gear.  I don't feel entitled to anything I can't earn by playing the game my way, because my way defines my choices, and Im perfectly happy with that.</blockquote><p>I give a lot more respect to someone such as yourself who is making progress because they choose to albeit maybe not as quickly as they could be but understanding that it is mainly based on their own choices.  Those who put the time and effort in get the rewards, and I'm sure you've had your own notworthy successes following that ethic that mean something to you based on your adversities and what you have to work with.</p></blockquote>Making their own choices based on the limitations the game puts on them is not really choices.  It's just acceptance. 

[Vumael]

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I know im in the minority on the forums.  This is where the hardcore live and that's just fine.  However, this arguement goes beyond mythicals.  Personally I am happy getting a Fabled and I could really care if I never get a Mythical.</p><p>Also I would like to add that I can't try to get a Mythical yet because my main is only level 66, thank you very much.   </p><p>A lot of you keep stating this "risk vs. reward" thing and I really have to laugh at that.  You are not risking anything but your time, and time is wasted in this game whether you raid, group, solo, or run around in circles all day.  Reguardless of what you do in the game you are still using your personal time.  That's all.  </p><p>Now, my position and this applies to more than the Mythical arguement is that raiding needs to be opened up to a broader audience.  I don't understand this stubborn position of it must be 24 people.  Why?  Does it stroke your ego that much to want to keep other people from playing the same zones you do?  Would it really kill you if you saw a guild of say 20 indiviual accounts raiding VP?  </p><p>Why?</p></blockquote><p> I wouldn't say you're in the minority here, because these topics keep coming up from casuals.</p><p>You keep citing "Risk vs. Reward" out of context, it's a saying / term.  Risk in this example also embodies difficulty.  It is more difficult to spend more time and organize more people so they get a better reward.  You don't undo an argument by citing particular things out of context and choosing to fight that particular term out of context - that's just bad arguing.</p><p>20 individual accounts can raid VP, it's just more difficult (we do most of it with 12-20 members sometimes now.)  Again though, we already have many of the rewards and to be honest play better and are more organized, hence why we can do it and get better rewards.  It would be nice to believe any group of people can do something, but honestly they can't because they aren't as good at it.  Maybe they can be someday, but that doesn't mean they are.</p><p>I don't know why you keep bringing up the ego thing either, no one is putting you down, we're saying the way it is.  You spend more time and organize more people then you get better rewards.  If you complain but never try the only person at fault is yourself in an even system.  I have the same opportunities you do, if you choose not to take them then don't blame someone else, it's your own responsibility.</p><p>If you're level 66 (and it's your main) you have no real experience raiding, get to 80 and experience things for yourself.</p>

[interstellarmatter]

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Now, my position and this applies to more than the Mythical arguement is that raiding needs to be opened up to a broader audience.  I don't understand this stubborn position of it must be 24 people.  Why?  Does it stroke your ego that much to want to keep other people from playing the same zones you do?  Would it really kill you if you saw a guild of say 20 indiviual accounts raiding VP?  </p><p>Why?</p></blockquote><p>I don't have a problem with 20 people raiding VP.  It's just going to be a tough if not impossible battle.</p><p>Why?  Because raids are scripted in order to be a challenge.  When a dev sits down to design a raid, he looks at the his initial variables, 24 people, 24 possible classes..and goes from there.  Could there be 12 man raids?  Sure, and there are..but no one ever used them.  Probably one of the most underutilized encounters in the game.</p><p>From the sound of your position, only ego that seems to be getting stroked is yours.</p>

[1jesse1]

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>Also I would like to add that I can't try to get a Mythical yet because my main is only level 66, thank you very much.   </p></blockquote><p>Why are you making a case about end game without having any type of knowledge there of?  Go level and expieriance the game.</p><p>~H</p>

[1jesse1]

<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><p>I don't have a problem with 20 people raiding VP.  It's just going to be a tough if not impossible battle.</p></blockquote><p>Certain mobs in VP are clearable with less then 2 groups.  Im positive VP will be the pickup raid highlight of TSO.</p><p>~H</p>

[Thunndar316]

<cite>Vumael wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I know im in the minority on the forums.  This is where the hardcore live and that's just fine.  However, this arguement goes beyond mythicals.  Personally I am happy getting a Fabled and I could really care if I never get a Mythical.</p><p>Also I would like to add that I can't try to get a Mythical yet because my main is only level 66, thank you very much.   </p><p>A lot of you keep stating this "risk vs. reward" thing and I really have to laugh at that.  You are not risking anything but your time, and time is wasted in this game whether you raid, group, solo, or run around in circles all day.  Reguardless of what you do in the game you are still using your personal time.  That's all.  </p><p>Now, my position and this applies to more than the Mythical arguement is that raiding needs to be opened up to a broader audience.  I don't understand this stubborn position of it must be 24 people.  Why?  Does it stroke your ego that much to want to keep other people from playing the same zones you do?  Would it really kill you if you saw a guild of say 20 indiviual accounts raiding VP?  </p><p>Why?</p></blockquote><p> I wouldn't say you're in the minority here, because these topics keep coming up from casuals.</p><p>You keep citing "Risk vs. Reward" out of context, it's a saying / term.  Risk in this example also embodies difficulty.  It is more difficult to spend more time and organize more people so they get a better reward.  You don't undo an argument by citing particular things out of context and choosing to fight that particular term out of context - that's just bad arguing.</p><p><b><span style="color: #008000;">There is no risk in assembling more people, it's just time.  I'm not talking about the difficulty of having 24 act in unison.  I'm talking about the ability to assemble 24 in the first place.  Most people can't do it, so they don't get the chance to even try.  Were talking about a 25% reduction here at least.  Personally I would much rather see a 50% reduction but I know people would jump off a building over that for some reason.  Couldn't we just have a casual server?  We both know where the people would go though don't we.</span></b></p><p>20 individual accounts can raid VP, it's just more difficult (we do most of it with 12-20 members sometimes now.)  Again though, we already have many of the rewards and to be honest play better and are more organized, hence why we can do it and get better rewards.  It would be nice to believe any group of people can do something, but honestly they can't because they aren't as good at it.  Maybe they can be someday, but that doesn't mean they are.</p><p><b><span style="color: #008000;">Well, sure you can.  You work together for many, many hours and you have some of the best gear in the game.  You deserve to be able to clear it with less than current required numbers because you earned it.  I'm not trying to begrudge the raiders of anything.  Just lower the bar a little and let us fat guys try to jump over it too.</span></b></p><p>I don't know why you keep bringing up the ego thing either, no one is putting you down, we're saying the way it is.  You spend more time and organize more people then you get better rewards.  If you complain but never try the only person at fault is yourself in an even system.  I have the same opportunities you do, if you choose not to take them then don't blame someone else, it's your own responsibility.</p><p>If you're level 66 (and it's your main) you have no real experience raiding, get to 80 and experience things for yourself.</p><p><b><span style="color: #008000;">Normally you would be right but not in my case.  See I had a 70 Swash before EoF was released and I did many a pickup raid.  I was the only person in my guild to get a MoA and I was the first to get his class hat.  For personal reasons I sold my account, and left the game for well over a year.  Only recently did I purchase the game again and start all over.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #008000;">It would have been much more enjoyable if my guild could have raided together for those MoA's but we lacked the numbers and the gear to even try.  See, we can't raid, because we can't raid to get raid gear, so we can raid.</span></b></p><b><span style="color: #008000;">P.S. I apologize for the name calling but you kinda come off that way in some of your posts.  At least it was a clean insult.</span></b></blockquote>

[Thunndar316]

<cite>Hypnottic@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>Also I would like to add that I can't try to get a Mythical yet because my main is only level 66, thank you very much.   </p></blockquote><p>Why are you making a case about end game without having any type of knowledge there of?  Go level and expieriance the game.</p><p>~H</p></blockquote><p>Look up for the green text.</p><p>Now read. </p>

[Vumael]

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vumael wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> I wouldn't say you're in the minority here, because these topics keep coming up from casuals.</p><p>You keep citing "Risk vs. Reward" out of context, it's a saying / term.  Risk in this example also embodies difficulty.  It is more difficult to spend more time and organize more people so they get a better reward.  You don't undo an argument by citing particular things out of context and choosing to fight that particular term out of context - that's just bad arguing.</p><p><b><span style="color: #008000;">There is no risk in assembling more people, it's just time.  I'm not talking about the difficulty of having 24 act in unison.  I'm talking about the ability to assemble 24 in the first place.  Most people can't do it, so they don't get the chance to even try.  Were talking about a 25% reduction here at least.  Personally I would much rather see a 50% reduction but I know people would jump off a building over that for some reason.  Couldn't we just have a casual server?  We both know where the people would go though don't we.</span></b></p><p>20 individual accounts can raid VP, it's just more difficult (we do most of it with 12-20 members sometimes now.)  Again though, we already have many of the rewards and to be honest play better and are more organized, hence why we can do it and get better rewards.  It would be nice to believe any group of people can do something, but honestly they can't because they aren't as good at it.  Maybe they can be someday, but that doesn't mean they are.</p><p><b><span style="color: #008000;">Well, sure you can.  You work together for many, many hours and you have some of the best gear in the game.  You deserve to be able to clear it with less than current required numbers because you earned it.  I'm not trying to begrudge the raiders of anything.  Just lower the bar a little and let us fat guys try to jump over it too.</span></b></p><p>I don't know why you keep bringing up the ego thing either, no one is putting you down, we're saying the way it is.  You spend more time and organize more people then you get better rewards.  If you complain but never try the only person at fault is yourself in an even system.  I have the same opportunities you do, if you choose not to take them then don't blame someone else, it's your own responsibility.</p><p>If you're level 66 (and it's your main) you have no real experience raiding, get to 80 and experience things for yourself.</p><p><b><span style="color: #008000;">Normally you would be right but not in my case.  See I had a 70 Swash before EoF was released and I did many a pickup raid.  I was the only person in my guild to get a MoA and I was the first to get his class hat.  For personal reasons I sold my account, and left the game for well over a year.  Only recently did I purchase the game again and start all over.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #008000;">It would have been much more enjoyable if my guild could have raided together for those MoA's but we lacked the numbers and the gear to even try.  See, we can't raid, because we can't raid to get raid gear, so we can raid.</span></b></p><b><span style="color: #008000;">P.S. I apologize for the name calling but you kinda come off that way in some of your posts.  At least it was a clean insult.</span></b></blockquote></blockquote><p>1.)  Try harder to aquire more people, or join another guild, or form some sort of alliance organization.</p><p>2.)  The bar has been being continually lower the last few months in nerfs on the mobs and increased drops, really after you drop some of them the first times it is a joke....  Many of the mobs take about 4 minutes for us to kill now.</p><p>3.)  I appreciate the apology but we didn't just have raid loot overnight either....  We farmed instances and really beefed up our MT and went through the first tier raids from there.... Slowly but surely, and because of tons and tons of internal strife it really did take a while, guild splits a war with another etc.  Eventually you can get there trust me.  It isn't easy I know especially with many people already gobbled up but it is possible.  Most things are instanced so you don't even have to compete for mobs...  It can be difficult getting people together but if you have a vent server and any kind of basic webpage trust me you can do it.</p>

[Thunndar316]

<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Now, my position and this applies to more than the Mythical arguement is that raiding needs to be opened up to a broader audience.  I don't understand this stubborn position of it must be 24 people.  Why?  Does it stroke your ego that much to want to keep other people from playing the same zones you do?  Would it really kill you if you saw a guild of say 20 indiviual accounts raiding VP?  </p><p>Why?</p></blockquote><p>I don't have a problem with 20 people raiding VP.  It's just going to be a tough if not impossible battle.</p><p>Why?  Because raids are scripted in order to be a challenge.  When a dev sits down to design a raid, he looks at the his initial variables, 24 people, 24 possible classes..and goes from there.  Could there be 12 man raids?  Sure, and there are..but no one ever used them.  Probably one of the most underutilized encounters in the game.</p><p><b>From the sound of your position, only ego that seems to be getting stroked is yours.</b></p></blockquote><p>OK let me get this straight.  I'm "stroking my ego" by wanting less complicated raid forces?  How so?  Please do tell.</p><p>Also, if the 12 man raid encounters are not used then they are probably either not very rewarding and/or very limited in numbers.  This lays squarely on the developers lack of ability to properly scale instances and rewards to meet the size of the raid force.</p><p>Perhaps this would be the better option but I don't see it happening either.</p><p>I'm looking at a list of Tier 6, 7, and 8 Epic x2 instances and I only see the following.</p><p>Tier 8 - None</p><p>Tier 7 - AoA,  <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Cavern_of_the_Crustacean" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Cavern of the Crustacean</a>,  <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Xux%27laio%27s_Roost" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Xux'laio's Roost</a></p><p>Tier 6 - None</p><p>Now I am sure there are perhaps some X2 instances that Wikia is not listing but this is very disappointing.  </p>

[Lasai]

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vumael wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Live with your choices then.  There are a lot of challenges in game that are pretty impressive if done by a small, casual group of friends.  Just getting to GL 80 being one of them.Live in your skin and take rewards as intrinsic rather than materialistic.   End Game Raiding should be content for End Game Raiders.... and if you choose not to partake of that style of play by default you choose not to partake of the rewards given.  Pretty Simple.  By Raid standards, I stink.  MC gear, Adept 3s, some smatterings of Fabled/Legendary.  My guild stinks by Raid Standards.. 3 actives.  Big Deal... we set goals and have fun doing what we can do.. and just dinged 57 guild level with no purchased status.  To us.. we rock.. and thats all that matters.   I don't play to impress anyone but myself and the only goal that really matters is beating yourself.. whether it is the high end Raider dps'er squeezing a few more DPS into a Parse, or Sucky SK Me and my Guildie Sucky Warden duoing the young Dragon at 72 in our "casual scrub" gear.  I don't feel entitled to anything I can't earn by playing the game my way, because my way defines my choices, and Im perfectly happy with that.</blockquote><p>I give a lot more respect to someone such as yourself who is making progress because they choose to albeit maybe not as quickly as they could be but understanding that it is mainly based on their own choices.  Those who put the time and effort in get the rewards, and I'm sure you've had your own notworthy successes following that ethic that mean something to you based on your adversities and what you have to work with.</p></blockquote>Making their own choices based on the limitations the game puts on them is not really choices.  It's just acceptance.  </blockquote>Your point is? Yes, it is acceptance of the game I choose to play. There was never a guarantee that all playstyles could do all things, ever.  There is no block on me preventing me from changing my self-limiting choices and going a different direction.. none.  The content defines who gets access to it, not other players.  Pretty simple, again.If I can't accept the limitations, mechanics and rules of this game then I need to delete my girls and uninstall it.Furthermore, Raiders have to make gameplay choices as well.  You can raid.. but there is no guarantee of a WW first just because you do.  Raiders who pursue that goal again have to adapt to the gamestyle most suited to accomplish it.   A WW first is something only 24 people can get.. ever.  No entitlement, if you want it, you accept the playstyle that goes with getting it.Nothing is ever a matter of simple categories or labeling.Oh, and a case in point. You are responding to Interstellarmatter.. or Blackfire, to me.. an old guildie.  She was a fun and contributing member of our small little casual guild. She was one of the founders, in fact.  She wanted more, did a server transfer and got involved with raiding.  Didn't give her more ego, more attitude, change her in any way that I can see.  Simply a change in playstyle, not some hidious transformation into....GASP.... A RAEDERRRRR!!! OMGZ.   People are who they are.The trash talking uberleet dewd raider was probably a trash talking uberleet dewd noob when they hit the beach on Newb Isle.  Raiding didn't make them that.. personality did.

[crunn]

<cite>Vumael wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>crunn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree that the Mythical should be very hard.</p><p>What i have a problem with is that part of making it so hard sony put in the unlocking tier raids thing for T8. you have to compete all the raids in order to unlock them. Which has killed pickup raids. Ive never seen a pickup raid for T8 and ive tried starting them but not one person replied lol.</p><p>Another problem is the arrogant elitist attitude of the harcore raid guilds. They all completely refuse to raid with non-guildies. Few reply to tells. Almost none of them accept new members and the two that do refuse to help with your mythical untill you have been a memeber for several months (ok i can understand that part, they dont want people using them for the updates then leaving)</p><p>Sony has killed raiding for all but the 5 or 6 hardcore raid guilds. And those raid guilds have killed any chance of others getting their mythical.</p><p>Im off to play my 15 defiler in darklight its actualy fun no raiders in sight.</p></blockquote>LOLI assure you that there are more than 5 or 6 guilds that have thier mythicals.Might want to look at yourself for blame for not being able to get your mythical instead of blaming those "evil raiders" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>I think he meant per server respectively.</p><p>I agree, blame yourself no one else for what you don't have unless there is a clear design issue.  There isn't.</p></blockquote><p>If i were just being lazy sure blame myself. Ive done all i can. Ive tried organising pickup raids. Ive tried helping my own guildies to lvl up to help. I've tried organising joint ventures with other non-raid guilds, but there is little interest or few able. Ive tried talking to raid guilds (politely respectfuly) for a joint venture. Just trying to get a reply from a raid guild leader or officer is like banging your head against the wall. The rare few replies ive had were all very dismissal very "...we are so much better than you, dont even try to waste our time..."  they wont raid with anyone but their own members and they dont accept new members. even if i wanted to join them they wouldnt have me or anyone else for that matter. It realy is a case of "them and us" Reading the chat channels you can see the non-raid guilds chat away quite happily for the most part. The raid guilds rarely talk on them and when they do its some put down some remark of how much better they are. I stay out of it all.</p><p>So no mythical for me, I blame the arrogant raid guilds. And no raiding for anyone but the raid guilds, I blame sony.</p><p>Actualy im more annoyed about not being able to raid anymore than i am about the mythical.</p><p>Anyway no point letting it get to me more than it has. Time to get back to my defiler.</p>

[Davngr1]

please stop crying about this one item.. it's all it is one piece of equipment it does not flag you as a good player.. it does not mean you won eq2..  god knows, I know, WE all know plenty of bad players with mythicals(in rading guilds)...   ends justify the means  ..   i suggest everyone with out a mythical go out and start making plat so you can buy your own update and stop hating others who have it.

[Noaani]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>The trash talking uberleet dewd raider was probably a trash talking uberleet dewd noob when they hit the beach on Newb Isle.  Raiding didn't make them that.. personality did.</blockquote>Very well put, I couldn't agree more.

[Noaani]

<cite>crunn wrote:</cite><blockquote>If i were just being lazy sure blame myself. Ive done all i can. Ive tried organising pickup raids. Ive tried helping my own guildies to lvl up to help. I've tried organising joint ventures with other non-raid guilds, but there is little interest or few able. Ive tried talking to raid guilds (politely respectfuly) for a joint venture. Just trying to get a reply from a raid guild leader or officer is like banging your head against the wall. The rare few replies ive had were all very dismissal very "...we are so much better than you, dont even try to waste our time..."  they wont raid with anyone but their own members and they dont accept new members. even if i wanted to join them they wouldnt have me or anyone else for that matter. It realy is a case of "them and us" Reading the chat channels you can see the non-raid guilds chat away quite happily for the most part. The raid guilds rarely talk on them and when they do its some put down some remark of how much better they are. I stay out of it all. <p>So no mythical for me, I blame the arrogant raid guilds. And no raiding for anyone but the raid guilds, I blame sony.</p><p>Actualy im more annoyed about not being able to raid anymore than i am about the mythical.</p><p>Anyway no point letting it get to me more than it has. Time to get back to my defiler.</p></blockquote><p>So, you approached a guild clearing VP and asked if you could raid with them, get your mythical, and offered them what exactly in exchange? If it was your "services"  for their raids... they obviously do not need them.</p><p>That is a guild that is capable of clearing VP already, or they wouldn't all have mythicals. You essentially asked for a free ride to get your own, when that guild likely put in hundreds of hours combined in order to get where they are.</p><p>If it were me you asked, I would have sent you a cracked dark elf bone in the mail, along with instructions of exactly where you can place it.</p><p>If you want your mythical, and are not in a raid guild, you have 3 options... buy it, join a raid guild, or start up a raid guild/alliance.</p>

[DragonMaster2385]

<cite>crunn wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>If i were just being lazy sure blame myself. Ive done all i can. Ive tried organising pickup raids. Ive tried helping my own guildies to lvl up to help. I've tried organising joint ventures with other non-raid guilds, but there is little interest or few able. Ive tried talking to raid guilds (politely respectfuly) for a joint venture. Just trying to get a reply from a raid guild leader or officer is like banging your head against the wall. The rare few replies ive had were all very dismissal very "...we are so much better than you, dont even try to waste our time..."  they wont raid with anyone but their own members and they dont accept new members. even if i wanted to join them they wouldnt have me or anyone else for that matter. It realy is a case of "them and us" Reading the chat channels you can see the non-raid guilds chat away quite happily for the most part. The raid guilds rarely talk on them and when they do its some put down some remark of how much better they are. I stay out of it all.</p><p>So no mythical for me, I blame the arrogant raid guilds. And no raiding for anyone but the raid guilds, I blame sony.</p><p>Actualy im more annoyed about not being able to raid anymore than i am about the mythical.</p><p>Anyway no point letting it get to me more than it has. Time to get back to my defiler.</p></blockquote>What?  You blame "arrogant" raid guilds for wanting to take their own guild members on raids over you?  Sorry, but you have a lot to learn about MMOs.  Guilds have a roster of raid members that show up on a nightly basis for raids.  So they only accept new members into the guild if someone from that roster leaves; kind of simple if you think about it.  You might get in a raid guild that doesn't have a set roster, but you will be placed on a back burner for all raids until you get some seniority.  That is how life works in general, not just guilds in MMOs.  Ask around the server, I'm sure some raid guild is recruiting your class.  No, most guilds that are VP flagged will not go on a "joint venture", as they farm raids for better gear to beef up thier own players. . . another reason that they won't take out of guild members.

[Dagorgil]

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Now, my position and this applies to more than the Mythical arguement is that raiding needs to be opened up to a broader audience.  I don't understand this stubborn position of it must be 24 people.  Why?  Does it stroke your ego that much to want to keep other people from playing the same zones you do?  Would it really kill you if you saw a guild of say 20 indiviual accounts raiding VP?  </p><p>Why?</p></blockquote><p>I don't have a problem with 20 people raiding VP.  It's just going to be a tough if not impossible battle.</p><p>Why?  Because raids are scripted in order to be a challenge.  When a dev sits down to design a raid, he looks at the his initial variables, 24 people, 24 possible classes..and goes from there.  Could there be 12 man raids?  Sure, and there are..but no one ever used them.  Probably one of the most underutilized encounters in the game.</p><p><b>From the sound of your position, only ego that seems to be getting stroked is yours.</b></p></blockquote><p>OK let me get this straight.  I'm "stroking my ego" by wanting less complicated raid forces?  How so?  Please do tell.</p><p>Also, if the 12 man raid encounters are not used then they are probably either not very rewarding and/or very limited in numbers.  This lays squarely on the developers lack of ability to properly scale instances and rewards to meet the size of the raid force.</p><p>Perhaps this would be the better option but I don't see it happening either.</p><p>I'm looking at a list of Tier 6, 7, and 8 Epic x2 instances and I only see the following.</p><p>Tier 8 - None</p><p>Tier 7 - AoA,  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Cavern_of_the_Crustacean" target="_blank">Cavern of the Crustacean</a>,  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Xux%27laio%27s_Roost" target="_blank">Xux'laio's Roost</a></p><p>Tier 6 - None</p><p>Now I am sure there are perhaps some X2 instances that Wikia is not listing but this is very disappointing.  </p></blockquote><p>There were x2, x3, and x4 raids a long, long time ago, and they were never used.  They were taken out shortly after DOF was released because they were not used.  The easier the raid was, the less loot that dropped, and it was never as good as the x4 loot.  Almost nobody used the smaller raid instances because the x4 raids dropped better loot, and was the preferred instance.</p><p>Either recruit more people, or make friends with another guild and schedule weekend raids to achieve your goals.</p>

[Dagorgil]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>The trash talking uberleet dewd raider was probably a trash talking uberleet dewd noob when they hit the beach on Newb Isle.  Raiding didn't make them that.. personality did.</blockquote>I prefer to call them Dr00dz.

[crunn]

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If it were me you asked, I would have sent you a cracked dark elf bone in the mail, along with instructions of exactly where you can place it.</p><p>If you want your mythical, and are not in a raid guild, you have 3 options... buy it, join a raid guild, or start up a raid guild/alliance.</p></blockquote><p>Good grief i found the thread where the hardcore raiders hang out to be all smug and condesending.</p><p>I see you didnt bother to read either the post you quoted or my previous post. I wont buy it for the obscene 500-700p if i ever did it i would want the satisfaction of actualy doing it. I cant join a raid guild because im a guild leader of a large non-raid guild. And i have tried time and time again to form raid alliances with raid and non-raid guilds to no avail.</p><p>so? you have an option 4? didnt think so. >defiler</p><p><cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>What?  You blame "arrogant" raid guilds for wanting to take their own guild members on raids over you?  Sorry, but you have a lot to learn about MMOs.  Guilds have a roster of raid members that show up on a nightly basis for raids.  So they only accept new members into the guild if someone from that roster leaves; kind of simple if you think about it.  You might get in a raid guild that doesn't have a set roster, but you will be placed on a back burner for all raids until you get some seniority.  That is how life works in general, not just guilds in MMOs.  Ask around the server, I'm sure some raid guild is recruiting your class.  No, most guilds that are VP flagged will not go on a "joint venture", as they farm raids for better gear to beef up thier own players. . . another reason that they won't take out of guild members.</blockquote><p>And another... you realise you made my point for me. Raid guilds are for the elite few hand picked by themselves, even those desperatly trying to get into one of these elite raid guilds almost certainly wont.</p><p>Crafting, solo, group, raid. Of course raid content wont be 25% but it is a chunk of the game. In T5-7 raiding via casual guild raids or pickups were acessable to all players. The new setup for T8 raids that sony is so proud of has removed rading as an option for all but the hardcore. And exactly as you say, these elitists have no incentive at all to raid with anyone else. Their condecending offensive attitude is just a bonus. I talk to them with the utmost care and respect and the rare times i get an answer its nothing short of arrogant obscenety.</p>

[TwistedFaith]

<cite>Dagorgil@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Now, my position and this applies to more than the Mythical arguement is that raiding needs to be opened up to a broader audience.  I don't understand this stubborn position of it must be 24 people.  Why?  Does it stroke your ego that much to want to keep other people from playing the same zones you do?  Would it really kill you if you saw a guild of say 20 indiviual accounts raiding VP?  </p><p>Why?</p></blockquote><p>I don't have a problem with 20 people raiding VP.  It's just going to be a tough if not impossible battle.</p><p>Why?  Because raids are scripted in order to be a challenge.  When a dev sits down to design a raid, he looks at the his initial variables, 24 people, 24 possible classes..and goes from there.  Could there be 12 man raids?  Sure, and there are..but no one ever used them.  Probably one of the most underutilized encounters in the game.</p><p><b>From the sound of your position, only ego that seems to be getting stroked is yours.</b></p></blockquote><p>OK let me get this straight.  I'm "stroking my ego" by wanting less complicated raid forces?  How so?  Please do tell.</p><p>Also, if the 12 man raid encounters are not used then they are probably either not very rewarding and/or very limited in numbers.  This lays squarely on the developers lack of ability to properly scale instances and rewards to meet the size of the raid force.</p><p>Perhaps this would be the better option but I don't see it happening either.</p><p>I'm looking at a list of Tier 6, 7, and 8 Epic x2 instances and I only see the following.</p><p>Tier 8 - None</p><p>Tier 7 - AoA,  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Cavern_of_the_Crustacean" target="_blank">Cavern of the Crustacean</a>,  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Xux%27laio%27s_Roost" target="_blank">Xux'laio's Roost</a></p><p>Tier 6 - None</p><p>Now I am sure there are perhaps some X2 instances that Wikia is not listing but this is very disappointing.  </p></blockquote><p>There were x2, x3, and x4 raids a long, long time ago, and they were never used.  They were taken out shortly after DOF was released because they were not used.  The easier the raid was, the less loot that dropped, and it was never as good as the x4 loot.  Almost nobody used the smaller raid instances because the x4 raids dropped better loot, and was the preferred instance.</p><p>Either recruit more people, or make friends with another guild and schedule weekend raids to achieve your goals.</p></blockquote>Quick point about these zones 'Tier 7 - AoA, Cavern of the Crustacean, Xux'laio's Roost', as saying they are not used doesnt quite tell the whole story.AoA - soley used for claymore updates, there wasnt anything even remotely decent in there other than a claymore update.Xux'laio's Roost - INSANE access quest which if I remember correctly is still needed, completely stupid idea, reminds of eye farming for the godking. Everyone needed to have done the quest to access zone.Cavern of the Crustacean - small zone, but fun encounter, shows that deent encounters can be made for 2 groups.I am a hardcore raider, I love raiding, but I think there should be far more x2 raids, just without stupid access quests and pointless loot.

[Noaani]

<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Quick point about these zones 'Tier 7 - AoA, Cavern of the Crustacean, Xux'laio's Roost', as saying they are not used doesnt quite tell the whole story.AoA - soley used for claymore updates, there wasnt anything even remotely decent in there other than a claymore update.Xux'laio's Roost - INSANE access quest which if I remember correctly is still needed, completely stupid idea, reminds of eye farming for the godking. Everyone needed to have done the quest to access zone.Cavern of the Crustacean - small zone, but fun encounter, shows that deent encounters can be made for 2 groups.I am a hardcore raider, I love raiding, but I think there should be far more x2 raids, just without stupid access quests and pointless loot.</blockquote><p>In order for x2 raids to see any form of mass appeal, they need to be desinged and viewed as large group content, not as small raid content.</p><p>The difference may be meaningless to a raider, but to non raiders, anything with an "epic" tag is often overwhelming (even if its gray). Removing that tag from 2 group encounters, and instead making them heroic x2, even if the encounters stay the same will get 2 group encounters being used more often. If that was done, and then they added in some dungeons similar in size to Veksar that can be done with 2 groups, have several names dropping legendary along the way, and finish with a fairly hard mob at the end with a 100% fabled drop (45% master, 45% item, 10% both).</p><p>In order for x2 encounters to be worth the development time, non raiders need to be running them fairly often, and raiders need to still have a reason to run them on occasion. They need to provide a reward that raiders will consider worth the time, provide a challange that is fitting that reward, and yet not be so hard that non raiders can not kill it.</p><p>That is not an easy balancing act.</p>

[Davngr1]

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Quick point about these zones 'Tier 7 - AoA, Cavern of the Crustacean, Xux'laio's Roost', as saying they are not used doesnt quite tell the whole story.AoA - soley used for claymore updates, there wasnt anything even remotely decent in there other than a claymore update.Xux'laio's Roost - INSANE access quest which if I remember correctly is still needed, completely stupid idea, reminds of eye farming for the godking. Everyone needed to have done the quest to access zone.Cavern of the Crustacean - small zone, but fun encounter, shows that deent encounters can be made for 2 groups.I am a hardcore raider, I love raiding, but I think there should be far more x2 raids, just without stupid access quests and pointless loot.</blockquote><p>In order for x2 raids to see any form of mass appeal, they need to be desinged and viewed as large group content, not as small raid content.</p><p>The difference may be meaningless to a raider, but to non raiders, anything with an "epic" tag is often overwhelming (even if its gray). Removing that tag from 2 group encounters, and instead making them heroic x2, even if the encounters stay the same will get 2 group encounters being used more often. If that was done, and then they added in some dungeons similar in size to Veksar that can be done with 2 groups, have several names dropping legendary along the way, and finish with a fairly hard mob at the end with a 100% fabled drop (45% master, 45% item, 10% both).</p><p>In order for x2 encounters to be worth the development time, non raiders need to be running them fairly often, and raiders need to still have a reason to run them on occasion. They need to provide a reward that raiders will consider worth the time, provide a challange that is fitting that reward, and yet not be so hard that non raiders can not kill it.</p><p>That is not an easy balancing act.</p></blockquote>that's an awsome idea noaani

[RandomCarnage]

"Mythical"... hard to appreciate if everyone has them.  By their very nature, these items would, over millenia, gravitate to the possession of the most powerful.  Let something in the game remain special, please.

[Triste-Lune]

<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Tier 8 - None</span></p>huh? all the dominus are easely 1 or 2 grouped as well as severillous and trakasaurus.<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dagorgil@Kithicor wrote:</cite>Xux'laio's Roost - INSANE access quest which if I remember correctly is still needed, completely stupid idea, reminds of eye farming for the godking. Everyone needed to have done the quest to access zone.</blockquote>quest was easely soloable in legendary gear at lvl 70 there is nothing insane or stupid at all. eye farming was dumb thou

[Rahatmattata]

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Tier 8 - None</span></p>huh? all the dominus are easely 1 or 2 grouped as well as severillous and trakasaurus.<span style="color: #ff0000;"><i><b>And SoH trash... maybe even a named or 2 depending on setup.</b></i></span><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dagorgil@Kithicor wrote:</cite>Xux'laio's Roost - INSANE access quest which if I remember correctly is still needed, completely stupid idea, reminds of eye farming for the godking. Everyone needed to have done the quest to access zone.</blockquote>quest was easely soloable in legendary gear at lvl 70 there is nothing insane or stupid at all. eye farming was dumb thou</blockquote>

[Windowlicker]

Having to raid endgame content for the "cool weapon update" isn't anything new.  You had to do it for the Prismatic 1, 2, Claymore, and SoD reward.I see no reason why this should change.  That being said, I don't have my Mythical yet.

[Triste-Lune]

^^ This late in the expansion all content should already be trivial to anyone anyway. Remember how they nerfed Mayong to the point everyone and their dog could kill it with 2 groups

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<p>Im in a casual guild.. we cleared VP last weekend.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>So the mythical isnt for hc guilds only...</p>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<p>You don't need to be hardcore to get your mythical.</p><p>You do need determination though. The reason 'hardcore' raiders beat content where pickup raids fail, is when the hardcore raiders wipe, they pick themselves up and try again.</p><p>I'm pretty sure there are no guilds that killed Nexona, Leviathan, Venril, and even Overking first pull. In fact other than the ones with insider info, I doubt many killed them within 5 hours of attempts. But you get the feeling with many pickup raiders that they give up after 2-3 wipes. Basically they're only happy if they're winning, and aren't willing to contribute suggestions or think about how best to gear their toon for the encounter (e.g. healers with no manawell items on Leviathan).</p><p>So, if your definition of hardcore is 'willing to wipe to learn and beat mobs', then yes, hardcore raiders should be the only ones with Mythicals.</p>

[Kizee]

<cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Im in a casual guild.. we cleared VP last weekend.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>So the mythical isnt for hc guilds only...</p></blockquote><p>Alot of people have been trying to tell the HC raid guild haters that you don't need to be hardcore to clear VP. They just like passing the blame from themselves to an easy scapegoat.</p><p>The only thing stopping a PUR from VP is the flagging. Good luck trying to get a raidforce of different people flagged thru everything.....even if you just have to kill Levi.</p>

[Tro]

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes.  They should be left in hardcore raid guilds.I don't have my mythical and I doubt I will get it at any point in the near future but sometimes there has to be something to strive for.  Mythicals are awesome items and, sure, I would love to have mine but if I can't do the content required to get one then I don't need the weapon.  No-one running instances or PR pickup raids every night needs their mythical.Leave them as they are, <span style="color: #ff0000;">those who do the work to get them deserve them,</span> I am not going to advocate that we cheapen their achievement because we want quick thrills.</blockquote>I have played many MMO's and raided quite abit. It isn't just a matter of "Doing the work".. it's also a the fact that RL may not  allow you to raid enough to join a guild that is doing the content you want. Not all of us raid 6 days a week and play 50 hours a week.  I accept the fact that with my limited play time the high end gear/weps may be a pipe dream but I still have a blast with what ever raiding I can do../shrug

[Kizee]

<cite>Trook wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes.  They should be left in hardcore raid guilds.I don't have my mythical and I doubt I will get it at any point in the near future but sometimes there has to be something to strive for.  Mythicals are awesome items and, sure, I would love to have mine but if I can't do the content required to get one then I don't need the weapon.  No-one running instances or PR pickup raids every night needs their mythical.Leave them as they are, <span style="color: #ff0000;">those who do the work to get them deserve them,</span> I am not going to advocate that we cheapen their achievement because we want quick thrills.</blockquote>I have played many MMO's and raided quite abit. It isn't just a matter of "Doing the work".. it's also a the fact that RL may not  allow you to raid enough to join a guild that is doing the content you want. Not all of us raid 6 days a week and play 50 hours a week.  I accept the fact that with my limited play time the high end gear/weps may be a pipe dream but I still have a blast with what ever raiding I can do../shrug</blockquote>A couple of posts up people are saying they have gotten their mythicals with only raiding 2-3 days a week so your excuse of having to raid 50 hours a week doesn't hold water.

[Kendricke]

<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trook wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes.  They should be left in hardcore raid guilds.I don't have my mythical and I doubt I will get it at any point in the near future but sometimes there has to be something to strive for.  Mythicals are awesome items and, sure, I would love to have mine but if I can't do the content required to get one then I don't need the weapon.  No-one running instances or PR pickup raids every night needs their mythical.Leave them as they are, <span style="color: #ff0000;">those who do the work to get them deserve them,</span> I am not going to advocate that we cheapen their achievement because we want quick thrills.</blockquote>I have played many MMO's and raided quite abit. It isn't just a matter of "Doing the work".. it's also a the fact that RL may not  allow you to raid enough to join a guild that is doing the content you want. Not all of us raid 6 days a week and play 50 hours a week.  I accept the fact that with my limited play time the high end gear/weps may be a pipe dream but I still have a blast with what ever raiding I can do../shrug</blockquote>A couple of posts up people are saying they have gotten their mythicals with only raiding 2-3 days a week so your excuse of having to raid 50 hours a week doesn't hold water.</blockquote><p>We raid priority targets three nights a week (and run an extra "fun night" for lower tier content on Wednesdays).  Our raids last 3 hours.  We've picked up mythicals for some of our members.  It's only a few more weeks before we pick up mythicals for the rest of the guild.  We can do it with just 9 hours of raiding each week.  If we can, then anyone can.</p>

[Noaani]

<cite>Trook wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not all of us raid 6 days a week and play 50 hours a week. </blockquote><p>A current "hardcore" raid guild has bwtween 10 and 12 hours of raid content a week. That is less time than most people spend watching TV.</p><p>Non hardocre guilds raid up to 20 hours a week. Any guild that trys to raid more than 20 hours a week is what would be considered hard core, and they would have the understanding of zones and encounters to be able to do them in 10 - 12 hours... see how that works?</p><p>50 hours a week would be enough time to do every single instanced raid in the game from T5 up.</p>

[Iseabeil]

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trook wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not all of us raid 6 days a week and play 50 hours a week. </blockquote><p>A current "hardcore" raid guild has bwtween 10 and 12 hours of raid content a week. That is less time than most people spend watching TV.</p><p>Non hardocre guilds raid up to 20 hours a week. Any guild that trys to raid more than 20 hours a week is what would be considered hard core, and they would have the understanding of zones and encounters to be able to do them in 10 - 12 hours... see how that works?</p><p>50 hours a week would be enough time to do every single instanced raid in the game from T5 up.</p></blockquote>And here I thought everyone had Angler, King Zalak etc on their regular raid schedule.. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[GangleG]

Yes, only people who raid the content should get their mythical weapon; people who buy them are pathetic and don't even need them if they don't raid (what are you going to do with raid wide CoB when you are never in a raid?).  It's just a novelty to make you feel better when you stand around Qeynos Harbor...Either join a raid guild or stop whining.

[Sleap]

<p>so the moral of the story is, those who have time to get there mythicals are the people that live in there mom's basement playing EQ 15hrs a day and the people without mythicals are the ones who have jobs and have a family? lol I dont have my mythcial either, am working to get my epic thats about it. Im not paying 200p per kill for mythical updates for a weapon i just want for perks when i dont raid very often if not at all.</p>

[Kizee]

<cite>Sleap@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>so the moral of the story is, those who have time to get there mythicals are the people that live in there mom's basement playing EQ 15hrs a day and the people without mythicals are the ones who have jobs and have a family? lol I dont have my mythcial either, am working to get my epic thats about it. Im not paying 200p per kill for mythical updates for a weapon i just want for perks when i dont raid very often if not at all.</p></blockquote><p>I think it would be safe to say that casuals probally put in more hours than most HC raid guilds playing this game. </p><p>Using the "I don't have time because I have a family and work a full time job" excuse really doesn't hold any water since it has been mentioned numerous times that people that raid 2-3x a week have mythicals.</p>

[DragonMaster2385]

<cite>Sleap@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>so the moral of the story is, those who have time to get there mythicals are the people that live in there mom's basement playing EQ 15hrs a day and the people without mythicals are the ones who have jobs and have a family? lol I dont have my mythcial either, am working to get my epic thats about it. Im not paying 200p per kill for mythical updates for a weapon i just want for perks when i dont raid very often if not at all.</p></blockquote>Wow, did you really just say that?  My guild is full of responsible adults with families and I don't think any of us lives in our parent's basement.  Although we don't have our mythicals yet, we are in VP and currently working on the first dragon.  You would think being a MMO player and subject to other's uneducated judgements about yourself, you would have more sensitivity to your own peers.

[Nero]

<p>If only hardcore raiding guilds can get Mythicals, is it sound/healthy as a game in society.Yeah, some of you said "You can get Mythical in 2-3 days per a week raiding".But I'm skeptical.</p><p>If it takes 100 hours(even 50 hours) to get Mythicals, it is perfectly unsound.If so, it may be only college students, homemakers and NEET that can get Mythicals.</p><p>Aside from Mythicals, are the end game contents that takes very long time sound/healthy?</p><p>Some of you said "Mychicals should be gotten by those who "deserve" it".Deserve? What is "deserve"?Deserve in a game?Poor in reality?</p><p>The contents that may further NEET is not sound, imo.EQ2 is in the process of becoming so, imo.</p>

[GangleG]

<cite>Sleap@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>so the moral of the story is, those who have time to get there mythicals are the people that live in there mom's basement playing EQ 15hrs a day and the people without mythicals are the ones who have jobs and have a family? lol I dont have my mythcial either, am working to get my epic thats about it. Im not paying 200p per kill for mythical updates for a weapon i just want for perks when i dont raid very often if not at all.</p></blockquote>No, the moral of the story is that you're so out of touch with reality that you generalise the lifestyle of someone who may be better at a video game than yourself.  Pathetic.

[Pins]

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If only hardcore raiding guilds can get Mythicals, is it sound/healthy as a game in society.Yeah, some of you said "You can get Mythical in 2-3 days per a week raiding".But I'm skeptical.</p><p>If it takes 100 hours(even 50 hours) to get Mythicals, it is perfectly unsound.If so, it may be only college students, homemakers and NEET that can get Mythicals.</p><p>Aside from Mythicals, are the end game contents that takes very long time sound/healthy?</p><p>Some of you said "Mychicals should be gotten by those who "deserve" it".Deserve? What is "deserve"?Deserve in a game?Poor in reality?</p><p>The contents that may further NEET is not sound, imo.EQ2 is in the process of becoming so, imo.</p></blockquote>Wow, you consider 50 hours a lot of time to invest to get an item.  Let's say you play 5 hours a week, that's only 10 weeks.  How is that excessive at all?  Are you telling me you don't play this game for 5 hours a week?

[TwistedFaith]

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Tier 8 - None</span></p>huh? all the dominus are easely 1 or 2 grouped as well as severillous and trakasaurus.<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dagorgil@Kithicor wrote:</cite>Xux'laio's Roost - INSANE access quest which if I remember correctly is still needed, completely stupid idea, reminds of eye farming for the godking. Everyone needed to have done the quest to access zone.</blockquote>quest was easely soloable in legendary gear at lvl 70 there is nothing insane or stupid at all. eye farming was dumb thou</blockquote>If I remember correctly the quest involved doing a bunch of stuff and then clearing Nizara which to this day is recognised as one of the most difficult heroic zones made in EQ2. Yes it was possible, but it seems totally absurd that you only needed 1 person to zone a raid into Deathtoll but you needed everyone to have done the access quest for Xux'laio's Roost to be able to zone in.I honestly dont know anyone who has been in the zone! The zone should be changed so that you only need one person with access to zone a X2 raid in, otherwise its completly pointless.

[Nero]

<cite>Pinski wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If only hardcore raiding guilds can get Mythicals, is it sound/healthy as a game in society.Yeah, some of you said "You can get Mythical in 2-3 days per a week raiding".But I'm skeptical.</p><p>If it takes 100 hours(even 50 hours) to get Mythicals, it is perfectly unsound.If so, it may be only college students, homemakers and NEET that can get Mythicals.</p><p>Aside from Mythicals, are the end game contents that takes very long time sound/healthy?</p><p>Some of you said "Mychicals should be gotten by those who "deserve" it".Deserve? What is "deserve"?Deserve in a game?Poor in reality?</p><p>The contents that may further NEET is not sound, imo.EQ2 is in the process of becoming so, imo.</p></blockquote>Wow, you consider 50 hours a lot of time to invest to get an item.  Let's say you play 5 hours a week, that's only 10 weeks.  How is that excessive at all?  Are you telling me you don't play this game for 5 hours a week?</blockquote>There isn't the problem.The problem is that it takes too long time to get an item so much so that players become NEET.In only one Japanese server, Sebilis, there are a lot of NEET in hardcore raiding guilds.Is it sound?

[Pins]

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pinski wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If only hardcore raiding guilds can get Mythicals, is it sound/healthy as a game in society.Yeah, some of you said "You can get Mythical in 2-3 days per a week raiding".But I'm skeptical.</p><p>If it takes 100 hours(even 50 hours) to get Mythicals, it is perfectly unsound.If so, it may be only college students, homemakers and NEET that can get Mythicals.</p><p>Aside from Mythicals, are the end game contents that takes very long time sound/healthy?</p><p>Some of you said "Mychicals should be gotten by those who "deserve" it".Deserve? What is "deserve"?Deserve in a game?Poor in reality?</p><p>The contents that may further NEET is not sound, imo.EQ2 is in the process of becoming so, imo.</p></blockquote>Wow, you consider 50 hours a lot of time to invest to get an item.  Let's say you play 5 hours a week, that's only 10 weeks.  How is that excessive at all?  Are you telling me you don't play this game for 5 hours a week?</blockquote>There isn't the problem.The problem is that it takes too long time to get an item so much so that players become NEET.In only one Japanese server, Sebilis, there are a lot of NEET in hardcore raiding guilds.Is it sound?</blockquote>And isn't that their choice to be a NEET?  If somebody wants to play the game 12 hours a day, that's their choice.  Why are you trying to push those people who play the game 12 hours a day to your playstyle of 5 hours a week?  They are NEETs because they want to be a NEET.  It has nothing to do with the game.

[Lasai]

<cite>Sleap@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>so the moral of the story is, those who have time to get there mythicals are the people that live in there mom's basement playing EQ 15hrs a day and the people without mythicals are the ones who have jobs and have a family? lol I dont have my mythcial either, am working to get my epic thats about it. Im not paying 200p per kill for mythical updates for a weapon i just want for perks when i dont raid very often if not at all.</p></blockquote>Ha Ha, generalities.   I'm retired/disabled, play in my own paid-for basement, and have all the time in the world to devote to EQ if I wanted.  I don't have a mythical simply because I like my dog better than I like most people, and finding 24 I could stand long enough to get a Mythical just isn't worth the effort.No way am I somehow "entitled" to one.

[Wyeth]

<p>Affordable Mythicals for all - vote for subprime raids for everyone today, besides it's only fair!  Small guilds deserve subsidized raids via the /claim button.</p><p>Yes, I'm kidding (and no I don't raid).</p>

[Nero]

<cite>Pinski wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pinski wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If only hardcore raiding guilds can get Mythicals, is it sound/healthy as a game in society.Yeah, some of you said "You can get Mythical in 2-3 days per a week raiding".But I'm skeptical.</p><p>If it takes 100 hours(even 50 hours) to get Mythicals, it is perfectly unsound.If so, it may be only college students, homemakers and NEET that can get Mythicals.</p><p>Aside from Mythicals, are the end game contents that takes very long time sound/healthy?</p><p>Some of you said "Mychicals should be gotten by those who "deserve" it".Deserve? What is "deserve"?Deserve in a game?Poor in reality?</p><p>The contents that may further NEET is not sound, imo.EQ2 is in the process of becoming so, imo.</p></blockquote>Wow, you consider 50 hours a lot of time to invest to get an item.  Let's say you play 5 hours a week, that's only 10 weeks.  How is that excessive at all?  Are you telling me you don't play this game for 5 hours a week?</blockquote>There isn't the problem.The problem is that it takes too long time to get an item so much so that players become NEET.In only one Japanese server, Sebilis, there are a lot of NEET in hardcore raiding guilds.Is it sound?</blockquote>And isn't that their choice to be a NEET?  If somebody wants to play the game 12 hours a day, that's their choice.  Why are you trying to push those people who play the game 12 hours a day to your playstyle of 5 hours a week?  They are NEETs because they want to be a NEET.  It has nothing to do with the game.</blockquote>But you must not be able to deny that the game foments/fosters/helps the people to become NEETs.If the game, which takes too long time to play, doesn't exist, less NEETs exist.I want to ask.Is the game formenting/fostering/helping the people to become NEETs sound and productive in the society?

[LordPazuzu]

What determines how much time is too much time to play?  Just because you think it takes too long to accomplish something doesn't mean that I do, or anyone else does for that matter.  The game simply *is*.  People play it however they want too and there are rewards for a multitude of play styles. 

[Nero]

<cite>Sulan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>What determines how much time is too much time to play?  </blockquote>Raid. For a part of people.And, though the game simply is, the game addicts actually exist.

[Te'ana]

<p>A bit of food for thought or possibly fuel for the fire:</p><p>I was totally baffeled by the term NEET. After a bit of research I determined that NEET = Deadbeat in Newspeak.</p>

[liveja]

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>Should Mythical be left in hardcore raid guilds or not?</blockquote>Yes.

[feldon30]

<cite>Sleap@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>so the moral of the story is, those who have time to get there mythicals are the people that live in there mom's basement playing EQ 15hrs a day and the people without mythicals are the ones who have jobs and have a family? lol I dont have my mythcial either, am working to get my epic thats about it. Im not paying 200p per kill for mythical updates for a weapon i just want for perks when i dont raid very often if not at all.</p></blockquote>I think it would be safe to say that you couldn't be bothered to read the thread or any of the comments from casual guilds that raid <b>12-15 hours a week</b> and have mythicals. You definitely don't deserve mythicals if you reply to threads without even reading the 1st page.

[Pins]

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>But you must not be able to deny that the game foments/fosters/helps the people to become NEETs.If the game, which takes too long time to play, doesn't exist, less NEETs exist.I want to ask.Is the game formenting/fostering/helping the people to become NEETs sound and productive in the society?</blockquote>Welcome to an Video Games.  I'm so sorry that it took you the past 20 years to finally come out and realize that people who are Addicts get Addicted to Video Games!  Like OMG, that is such a brand new concept.  I'm so sorry that you are ignorant to the fact that people get Addicted to LOTS of things.  TV Shows foster people to become NEETs to go and watch them all day long!  Forums foster people to become NEETs to post/read them all day long!  WOW.  That's like some really hardcore stuff that's brand new and just discovered by you.<div></div><div>Sorry, but people who are have addictive personalities will become addicted to just about anything they want to.  It's their choice, if you don't like it, well got some bad news.  This is how society is now.</div><div></div><div>On a side note, I bet people are wondering what a NEET is <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Noaani]

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>But you must not be able to deny that the game foments/fosters/helps the people to become NEETs.If the game, which takes too long time to play, doesn't exist, less NEETs exist.I want to ask.Is the game formenting/fostering/helping the people to become NEETs sound and productive in the society?</blockquote><p>What I don't get is, what does this have to do with getting your mythical?</p><p>Do the heroic quest, kill the first 2 mobs you need for your mythical, make sure you have VP access, then run VP.</p><p>Thats it.</p><p>It takes less time to get the mythical than it took to get Prismatics back in the day. It takes less time to get a mythical than it took to farm the eyes for access to the final mob for Godking weapons let alone the quest to get to that point. It takes less time to get a mythical than it took to do the Claymore quest series, let alone getting Deathtoll access.</p><p>Why is this suddenly an issue?</p>

[SantiagoDraco]

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes.  They should be left in hardcore raid guilds.I don't have my mythical and I doubt I will get it at any point in the near future but sometimes there has to be something to strive for.  Mythicals are awesome items and, sure, I would love to have mine but if I can't do the content required to get one then I don't need the weapon.  No-one running instances or PR pickup raids every night needs their mythical.Leave them as they are, those who do the work to get them deserve them, I am not going to advocate that we cheapen their achievement because we want quick thrills.</blockquote>/boggle

[Sleap]

lol defensive much? and i did read the first page, some people aggree that mythicals should be left to hardcore raiding guilds ( which in my opinion are the one's who put EQ first before family/friends ) and other ppl aggree'd that it shouldnt be left to hardcore raiding guilds. Which i really dont care myself. I guess you didnt see that episode of Southpark, if you cant take a joke then dont reply to my message <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[feldon30]

Actually I just watched that ep of South Park again yesterday. Hilarious. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But seriously, it shouldn't take 50 hours a week to get Mythicals. All the jokes about living in mom's basement/broomcloset and eating nothing but Pop Tarts and Hot Pockets to get your mythical don't really apply.

[Thunndar316]

<p>Off topic but I thought that WoW episode of South park was dead on lol.</p>

[simpwrx02]

<cite>Pinski wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>But you must not be able to deny that the game foments/fosters/helps the people to become NEETs.If the game, which takes too long time to play, doesn't exist, less NEETs exist.I want to ask.Is the game formenting/fostering/helping the people to become NEETs sound and productive in the society?</blockquote>Welcome to an Video Games.  I'm so sorry that it took you the past 20 years to finally come out and realize that people who are Addicts get Addicted to Video Games!  Like OMG, that is such a brand new concept.  I'm so sorry that you are ignorant to the fact that people get Addicted to LOTS of things.  TV Shows foster people to become NEETs to go and watch them all day long!  Forums foster people to become NEETs to post/read them all day long!  WOW.  That's like some really hardcore stuff that's brand new and just discovered by you. <div></div><div>Sorry, but people who are have addictive personalities will become addicted to just about anything they want to.  It's their choice, if you don't like it, well got some bad news.  This is how society is now.</div><div></div><div>On a side note, I bet people are wondering what a NEET is <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div></blockquote>isnt it from Monty Python's Quest for the HOLY GRAIL  you know the knight who say NEET, NEET!   it forces people who play to much EQ2 to go around demanding shrubberies with thier mythicals.

[Te'ana]

<p>Nope, it means deadbeat.</p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET</a></p>

[SageGaspar]

You attempt harder content for (a) challenge and (b) progression. Thus the hardest content needs to unlock some progression. So far with very few exceptions they've reserved the challenge for the raid mobs because people complain about hard content in solo and group settings. If it took days of wiping to clear a heroic zone all you'd hear about was how it was impossible for anyone without X, Y, or Z gear. The people that have mythicals are the ones that instead of clearing CoA and VoES for the 500th time get together with a group of 23 people and start taking pulls without getting discouraged by initial failures.

[Thunderthyze]

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>But seriously, it shouldn't take 50 hours a week to get Mythicals. </blockquote>Err......why not? Personally I believe that they should only be obtainable by a vanishingly small minority of players. That is not to suggest everyone else is disenfranchised. It is entirely possible to play the game at cap with MC armour and adept3 skills. Ledgendary gear is nice and fabled/master stuff totally cool. Mythicals are NOT required to play the game and should remain something, almost entirely out of reach, worth striving for. The fact that everything in the game is now pretty much viewed as an entitlement is one of the reasons people get bored. They've got everything.....they've "won"...../cancel sub and move on to next game.

[Taleise]

<p>I'm a casual raider.  I don't raid no more than maybe once or twice a week in raids where I've been picked up to fill spots if I'm lucky.   I have my Mythical.  I didn't pay for it.  I earned it by being a good enough player and playing my class and earning every lil peice of gear I have along the way to make others on my server feel I was responsible, capable, and skilled enough to be an asset to their raid outing on whatever day I was grabbed to go on a raid.  If anything, I wouldn't want to join a hard core raiding guild even if I was asked to.  My RL schedule keeps me from being under a strict game attendance policy.  But that doesn't mean that I don't make myself vocal in level chat advertising that I am avail for the time that I'm online playing.  some weeks I get to raid several times, some weeks I don't get to raid at all.  It's all about if you are willing to put yourself out there and get it.  It takes effort.  If you want something bad enough, you'll get it.  It's just up to you how you do it....and whether you can have a clear conscience about it.</p><p>I'm proud of my mythical. I worked for it, just like I've worked for all the other stuff that my toon has.</p>

[Faenril]

<cite>Ragadagh@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it took days of wiping to clear a heroic zone all you'd hear about was how it was impossible for anyone without X, Y, or Z gear. </blockquote>Well, just hear the complaints about RE2's final encounter or the new Veksar, now that you can't stun lock the last mob to death <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Faenril]

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>But seriously, it shouldn't take 50 hours a week to get Mythicals. All the jokes about living in mom's basement/broomcloset and eating nothing but Pop Tarts and Hot Pockets to get your mythical don't really apply.</blockquote>Then Mythicals in their current state are fine.We raid 4 times a week (many of us missing about 1 raid event a week for whatever reason), about 3 - 4 hours, depending on ppl's availability, and we got our mythicals.That's about 12 - 16 hours a week on average.

[LygerT]

<cite>Taleise wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm a casual raider.  I don't raid no more than maybe once or twice a week in raids where I've been picked up to fill spots if I'm lucky.   I have my Mythical.  I didn't pay for it.  I earned it by being a good enough player and playing my class and earning every lil peice of gear I have along the way to make others on my server feel I was responsible, capable, and skilled enough to be an asset to their raid outing on whatever day I was grabbed to go on a raid.  If anything, I wouldn't want to join a hard core raiding guild even if I was asked to.  My RL schedule keeps me from being under a strict game attendance policy.  But that doesn't mean that I don't make myself vocal in level chat advertising that I am avail for the time that I'm online playing.  some weeks I get to raid several times, some weeks I don't get to raid at all.  It's all about if you are willing to put yourself out there and get it.  It takes effort.  If you want something bad enough, you'll get it.  It's just up to you how you do it....and whether you can have a clear conscience about it.</p><p>I'm proud of my mythical. I worked for it, just like I've worked for all the other stuff that my toon has.</p></blockquote><p>this is what i'm talking about.</p><p>a mythical is an item that you can value yourself and the work it took you to get it, it is just a piece of loot to some but to those who earned it it is their status symbol for that effort. people who don't raid have decked out houses from their tradeskills, they have all the fabled pieces from the dungeons, they have fat wallets from harvesting all day, to each their own. to those who want freebie items just because someone else has them and they can't accomplish that on their own? well the news is out, if you want something so bad you adapt to get it or you forget it and focus on something else. </p><p>so you see some guy in a ferarri while you're driving your civic to work, you think "man i wish i had that". anyone can have anything if they put in the effort to get it.</p><p>12-15 hours a week sacrificed to earn it, it doesn't sound like alot because it's not really and most people can find enough time to devote that, if they can't then why would you try to ruin the game by crying about something that people put tons of effort in to get? we already have legendary and fabled dropping off of what seems like trash mobs all over the place now, we don't need mythicals doing the same because it ruins the meaning of accomplishment.  </p>

[woolf2k]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pinski wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>But you must not be able to deny that the game foments/fosters/helps the people to become NEETs.If the game, which takes too long time to play, doesn't exist, less NEETs exist.I want to ask.Is the game formenting/fostering/helping the people to become NEETs sound and productive in the society?</blockquote>Welcome to an Video Games.  I'm so sorry that it took you the past 20 years to finally come out and realize that people who are Addicts get Addicted to Video Games!  Like OMG, that is such a brand new concept.  I'm so sorry that you are ignorant to the fact that people get Addicted to LOTS of things.  TV Shows foster people to become NEETs to go and watch them all day long!  Forums foster people to become NEETs to post/read them all day long!  WOW.  That's like some really hardcore stuff that's brand new and just discovered by you. <div></div><div>Sorry, but people who are have addictive personalities will become addicted to just about anything they want to.  It's their choice, if you don't like it, well got some bad news.  This is how society is now.</div><div></div><div>On a side note, I bet people are wondering what a NEET is <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div></blockquote>isnt it from Monty Python's Quest for the HOLY GRAIL  you know the knight who say NEET, NEET!   it forces people who play to much EQ2 to go around demanding shrubberies with thier mythicals.</blockquote>those were "the knights who say <u><i><b>Ni</b></i></u>"nice one though... lol

[DragonMaster2385]

I think it is funny as hell that a lot of non raiders complain about the Mythicals and never complained about other end game items. For every tier that was, at one point, the level cap, there was a questline that resulted in an item similar to the mythicals. The difference is that the mythical is a class based achievement that non raiders get a taste of from the legendary item. TBH, we should be glad that they decided to put in Legendary versions. Give a mouse a cookie and he'll ask for a glass of milk.

[Dagorgil]

<cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Give a mouse a cookie and he'll ask for a glass of milk.</blockquote>Yeah, but in this day and age, if you give a mouse a cookie, he thinks he deserves a gallon of milk.

[Iseabeil]

<cite>Dagorgil@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Give a mouse a cookie and he'll ask for a glass of milk.</blockquote>Yeah, but in this day and age, if you give a mouse a cookie, he thinks he deserves a gallon of milk.</blockquote>No.... A cow! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Pins]

<cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it is funny as hell that a lot of non raiders complain about the Mythicals and never complained about other end game items. For every tier that was, at one point, the level cap, there was a questline that resulted in an item similar to the mythicals. The difference is that the mythical is a class based achievement that non raiders get a taste of from the legendary item. TBH, we should be glad that they decided to put in Legendary versions. Give a mouse a cookie and he'll ask for a glass of milk.</blockquote>You are aware that every expansion those players complained, right?  This isn't a new argument.

[DragonMaster2385]

They complained, but not to this extent. All threads that started quickly died off while this one has remained on the front page for a while. It isn't a new issue, but it is different this time.

[Oh]

<cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it is funny as hell that a lot of non raiders complain about the Mythicals and never complained about other end game items. For every tier that was, at one point, the level cap, there was a questline that resulted in an item similar to the mythicals.The difference is that the mythical is a class based achievement that non raiders get a taste of from the legendary item. TBH, we should be glad that they decided to put in Legendary versions.Give a mouse a cookie and he'll ask for a glass of milk.</blockquote>My personal spin on why this thread is still going isn't as much how nice the mythical weapon is but is more directly related to the spam you see every night from folks getting them. IF on the other hand, there was no message "norath stands still blahblahblah" message I bet this would be just like all other threads/endgame gear in previous expansions. At least that is my point of view.

[Thunderthyze]

<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote>My personal spin on why this thread is still going isn't as much how nice the mythical weapon is but is more directly related to the spam you see every night from folks getting them. IF on the other hand, there was no message "norath stands still blahblahblah" message I bet this would be just like all other threads/endgame gear in previous expansions. At least that is my point of view.</blockquote>I have to agree with you. I always thought that only the person who got the server disco on the epics should have had Norrath stand still.

[Davngr1]

who cares it's one item.   people need to stop making it some type of *i win* symbol

[simpwrx02]

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>who cares it's one item.   people need to stop making it some type of *i win* symbol</blockquote><p>QFT</p><p>totally agree it is not the holy grail, if you suck with out a mythical, you will still suck with a mythical.</p>

[Lleren]

There are at least two guilds on my server Raiding VP and currently earning mythicals that grew their Raidforce through hosting T8 pickup raids.  They supplied about 2 groups worth and the rest is history because as they where succesfull their regulars joined up.

[Lleren]

<cite>Pinski wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it is funny as hell that a lot of non raiders complain about the Mythicals and never complained about other end game items. For every tier that was, at one point, the level cap, there was a questline that resulted in an item similar to the mythicals.The difference is that the mythical is a class based achievement that non raiders get a taste of from the legendary item. TBH, we should be glad that they decided to put in Legendary versions.Give a mouse a cookie and he'll ask for a glass of milk.</blockquote>You are aware that every expansion those players complained, right?  This isn't a new argument.</blockquote><p>Thank you for the cookie, can I have a glass of milk too please? </p><p>Old argument yeah.</p><p>Social networking for the win, anyone that wants to spend 3-4 hours a night a few nights a week and can make 20ish friends can get thier mythical, its just a lot easier to join an established guild.</p>

[Dasein]

<cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it is funny as hell that a lot of non raiders complain about the Mythicals and never complained about other end game items. For every tier that was, at one point, the level cap, there was a questline that resulted in an item similar to the mythicals. The difference is that the mythical is a class based achievement that non raiders get a taste of from the legendary item. TBH, we should be glad that they decided to put in Legendary versions. Give a mouse a cookie and he'll ask for a glass of milk.</blockquote>The previous weapons were fairly generic - they had a damage proc and usually some other effect like power regen that made them decent items, but not exceptionally powerful, and there were usually other items of similar power available.Mythical weapons provide multiple, unique and class-enhacing abilities that make the wielder substantially more powerful, and a group or raid even more powerful, such that those with mythicals are a step up on everyone else. With mythicals, you see the gap between raiders and non-raiders widening and in a much more noticable manner. What impact will this gap have on future game design? How will encounters be balanced? That's why people are concerned.

[simpwrx02]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it is funny as hell that a lot of non raiders complain about the Mythicals and never complained about other end game items. For every tier that was, at one point, the level cap, there was a questline that resulted in an item similar to the mythicals.The difference is that the mythical is a class based achievement that non raiders get a taste of from the legendary item. TBH, we should be glad that they decided to put in Legendary versions.Give a mouse a cookie and he'll ask for a glass of milk.</blockquote>The previous weapons were fairly generic - they had a damage proc and usually some other effect like power regen that made them decent items, but not exceptionally powerful, and there were usually other items of similar power available.Mythical weapons provide multiple, unique and class-enhacing abilities that make the wielder substantially more powerful, and a group or raid even more powerful, such that those with mythicals are a step up on everyone else. With mythicals, you see the gap between raiders and non-raiders widening and in a much more noticable manner. What impact will this gap have on future game design? How will encounters be balanced? That's why people are concerned. </blockquote><p>Just because the current mythicals have multible effects dosen't make them any more spectacular than previous ones when you compare then to the other items available at that time.  I started playing after KoS came out so I can't compare anything before hand.  How ever the Claymore rewards from raiding part of the questline were some of the best items you could get for that slot, as a high aggro wizard in a very casual guild in KoS the deaggro proc on the final reward was more dps for me because I didnt die, than about any other item I could have posibly gotten, as far as how useful it is, I still have it in my bags and even equip it still when I think aggro may be an issue( to me that seems vert powerful indeed when I equip a item from 2 expansions ago and find it useful).</p>

[Dasein]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it is funny as hell that a lot of non raiders complain about the Mythicals and never complained about other end game items. For every tier that was, at one point, the level cap, there was a questline that resulted in an item similar to the mythicals.The difference is that the mythical is a class based achievement that non raiders get a taste of from the legendary item. TBH, we should be glad that they decided to put in Legendary versions.Give a mouse a cookie and he'll ask for a glass of milk.</blockquote>The previous weapons were fairly generic - they had a damage proc and usually some other effect like power regen that made them decent items, but not exceptionally powerful, and there were usually other items of similar power available.Mythical weapons provide multiple, unique and class-enhacing abilities that make the wielder substantially more powerful, and a group or raid even more powerful, such that those with mythicals are a step up on everyone else. With mythicals, you see the gap between raiders and non-raiders widening and in a much more noticable manner. What impact will this gap have on future game design? How will encounters be balanced? That's why people are concerned. </blockquote><p>Just because the current mythicals have multible effects dosen't make them any more spectacular than previous ones when you compare then to the other items available at that time.  I started playing after KoS came out so I can't compare anything before hand.  How ever the Claymore rewards from raiding part of the questline were some of the best items you could get for that slot, as a high aggro wizard in a very casual guild in KoS the deaggro proc on the final reward was more dps for me because I didnt die, than about any other item I could have posibly gotten, as far as how useful it is, I still have it in my bags and even equip it still when I think aggro may be an issue( to me that seems vert powerful indeed when I equip a item from 2 expansions ago and find it useful).</p></blockquote>While the Claymore and Soulfire weapons had some nice effects, they are not on the game-changing level as the mythical epics. Further, as each mythical has unique effects, there is a cumulative effect that makes a group or raid with mythicals substantially more powerful than a group or raid without. Couple this with things like the set bonuses from VP armor (which any mythical raid force is likely to have) and you see a big gap in power showing up between raiders and non-raiders, which makes game balance difficult. The likely outcome is that the devs simply introduce new mechanics and new items that render most items from prior expansions obsolete, thus effectively resetting everyone with each new expansion.

[Davngr1]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it is funny as hell that a lot of non raiders complain about the Mythicals and never complained about other end game items. For every tier that was, at one point, the level cap, there was a questline that resulted in an item similar to the mythicals.The difference is that the mythical is a class based achievement that non raiders get a taste of from the legendary item. TBH, we should be glad that they decided to put in Legendary versions.Give a mouse a cookie and he'll ask for a glass of milk.</blockquote>The previous weapons were fairly generic - they had a damage proc and usually some other effect like power regen that made them decent items, but not exceptionally powerful, and there were usually other items of similar power available.Mythical weapons provide multiple, unique and class-enhacing abilities that make the wielder substantially more powerful, and a group or raid even more powerful, such that those with mythicals are a step up on everyone else. With mythicals, you see the gap between raiders and non-raiders widening and in a much more noticable manner. What impact will this gap have on future game design? How will encounters be balanced? That's why people are concerned. </blockquote><p>Just because the current mythicals have multible effects dosen't make them any more spectacular than previous ones when you compare then to the other items available at that time.  I started playing after KoS came out so I can't compare anything before hand.  How ever the Claymore rewards from raiding part of the questline were some of the best items you could get for that slot, as a high aggro wizard in a very casual guild in KoS the deaggro proc on the final reward was more dps for me because I didnt die, than about any other item I could have posibly gotten, as far as how useful it is, I still have it in my bags and even equip it still when I think aggro may be an issue( to me that seems vert powerful indeed when I equip a item from 2 expansions ago and find it useful).</p></blockquote>While the Claymore and Soulfire weapons had some nice effects, they are not on the game-changing level as the mythical epics. Further, as each mythical has unique effects, there is a cumulative effect that makes a group or raid with mythicals substantially more powerful than a group or raid without. Couple this with things like the set bonuses from VP armor (which any mythical raid force is likely to have) and you see a big gap in power showing up between raiders and non-raiders, which makes game balance difficult. The likely outcome is that the devs simply introduce new mechanics and new items that render most items from prior expansions obsolete, thus effectively resetting everyone with each new expansion.</blockquote> actualy im pretty sure the T1 - T4 system will continue on thru the next expac.. it works well, guilds that raid every day have access to zones the regular player does not and that is how it should be.   of course with the new expansion and even now, there is all ready guilds/pick up raids getting mythical up dates.    another possible route is *epic only* procs there is all ready some in game i belive(druid pants maybe?) and it would allow unlimited growth for raiding players while still allowing for balanced herroic content.    

[simpwrx02]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it is funny as hell that a lot of non raiders complain about the Mythicals and never complained about other end game items. For every tier that was, at one point, the level cap, there was a questline that resulted in an item similar to the mythicals.The difference is that the mythical is a class based achievement that non raiders get a taste of from the legendary item. TBH, we should be glad that they decided to put in Legendary versions.Give a mouse a cookie and he'll ask for a glass of milk.</blockquote>The previous weapons were fairly generic - they had a damage proc and usually some other effect like power regen that made them decent items, but not exceptionally powerful, and there were usually other items of similar power available.Mythical weapons provide multiple, unique and class-enhacing abilities that make the wielder substantially more powerful, and a group or raid even more powerful, such that those with mythicals are a step up on everyone else. With mythicals, you see the gap between raiders and non-raiders widening and in a much more noticable manner. What impact will this gap have on future game design? How will encounters be balanced? That's why people are concerned. </blockquote><p>Just because the current mythicals have multible effects dosen't make them any more spectacular than previous ones when you compare then to the other items available at that time.  I started playing after KoS came out so I can't compare anything before hand.  How ever the Claymore rewards from raiding part of the questline were some of the best items you could get for that slot, as a high aggro wizard in a very casual guild in KoS the deaggro proc on the final reward was more dps for me because I didnt die, than about any other item I could have posibly gotten, as far as how useful it is, I still have it in my bags and even equip it still when I think aggro may be an issue( to me that seems vert powerful indeed when I equip a item from 2 expansions ago and find it useful).</p></blockquote>While the Claymore and Soulfire weapons had some nice effects, they are not on the game-changing level as the mythical epics. Further, as each mythical has unique effects, there is a cumulative effect that makes a group or raid with mythicals substantially more powerful than a group or raid without. Couple this with things like the set bonuses from VP armor (which any mythical raid force is likely to have) and you see a big gap in power showing up between raiders and non-raiders, which makes game balance difficult. The likely outcome is that the devs simply introduce new mechanics and new items that render most items from prior expansions obsolete, thus effectively resetting everyone with each new expansion.</blockquote>So a guild full of claymore rewards and full Fabled in KoS wasn't leaps and bounds above the non-raiders lol, are you serious why do you think they implemented diminsihing returns..... of yeah it was because the raiders were leaps and bounds ahead of the non raiders at least in mitigation by so much it was not even funny.

[Dasein]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it is funny as hell that a lot of non raiders complain about the Mythicals and never complained about other end game items. For every tier that was, at one point, the level cap, there was a questline that resulted in an item similar to the mythicals.The difference is that the mythical is a class based achievement that non raiders get a taste of from the legendary item. TBH, we should be glad that they decided to put in Legendary versions.Give a mouse a cookie and he'll ask for a glass of milk.</blockquote>The previous weapons were fairly generic - they had a damage proc and usually some other effect like power regen that made them decent items, but not exceptionally powerful, and there were usually other items of similar power available.Mythical weapons provide multiple, unique and class-enhacing abilities that make the wielder substantially more powerful, and a group or raid even more powerful, such that those with mythicals are a step up on everyone else. With mythicals, you see the gap between raiders and non-raiders widening and in a much more noticable manner. What impact will this gap have on future game design? How will encounters be balanced? That's why people are concerned. </blockquote><p>Just because the current mythicals have multible effects dosen't make them any more spectacular than previous ones when you compare then to the other items available at that time.  I started playing after KoS came out so I can't compare anything before hand.  How ever the Claymore rewards from raiding part of the questline were some of the best items you could get for that slot, as a high aggro wizard in a very casual guild in KoS the deaggro proc on the final reward was more dps for me because I didnt die, than about any other item I could have posibly gotten, as far as how useful it is, I still have it in my bags and even equip it still when I think aggro may be an issue( to me that seems vert powerful indeed when I equip a item from 2 expansions ago and find it useful).</p></blockquote>While the Claymore and Soulfire weapons had some nice effects, they are not on the game-changing level as the mythical epics. Further, as each mythical has unique effects, there is a cumulative effect that makes a group or raid with mythicals substantially more powerful than a group or raid without. Couple this with things like the set bonuses from VP armor (which any mythical raid force is likely to have) and you see a big gap in power showing up between raiders and non-raiders, which makes game balance difficult. The likely outcome is that the devs simply introduce new mechanics and new items that render most items from prior expansions obsolete, thus effectively resetting everyone with each new expansion.</blockquote>So a guild full of claymore rewards and full Fabled in KoS wasn't leaps and bounds above the non-raiders lol, are you serious why do you think they implemented diminsihing returns..... of yeah it was because the raiders were leaps and bounds ahead of the non raiders at least in mitigation by so much it was not even funny.</blockquote>The power gap between raiders and non-raiders was an issue in previous expansiosn for sure, and with the EoF, you saw pretty much a reset of gear with the introduction of set bonuses and new item effects which made most KoS gear obsolete very quickly. RoK has only widened that gap as mythicals introduce unique effects that cannot be obtained anwhere else. For example, my paladin's mythical provides a flat 10% reduction to all physical damage and an additional 10% damage to heal conversion for all damage, giving me an effective 20% reduction in physical damage. There is no other way to achieve an effect like this, and it makes me substantially more powerful than a non-mythical paladin. Now, when designing content, how hard should a heroic mob hit? Should it be trivial for me, or should it challenge me but destroy less well equipped tanks?Perhaps the solution is to introduce tons of similar effects, so the opening solo quests in TSO provide plate tanks with armor qith damage reduction on it - 1% here and there adds up. Of course, this leads to mudflation and trivializes older content. Is that a good solution?

[feldon30]

This topic is passe. Let's rage about Unicorns being a LoN card only.

[erin]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The power gap between raiders and non-raiders was an issue in previous expansiosn for sure, and with the EoF, you saw pretty much a reset of gear with the introduction of set bonuses and new item effects which made most KoS gear obsolete very quickly. RoK has only widened that gap as mythicals introduce unique effects that cannot be obtained anwhere else. For example, my paladin's mythical provides a flat 10% reduction to all physical damage and an additional 10% damage to heal conversion for all damage, giving me an effective 20% reduction in physical damage. There is no other way to achieve an effect like this, and it makes me substantially more powerful than a non-mythical paladin. Now, when designing content, how hard should a heroic mob hit? Should it be trivial for me, or should it challenge me but destroy less well equipped tanks?Perhaps the solution is to introduce tons of similar effects, so the opening solo quests in TSO provide plate tanks with armor qith damage reduction on it - 1% here and there adds up. Of course, this leads to mudflation and trivializes older content. Is that a good solution? </blockquote>There is no good solution.  And raiders raging against non-raiders having the same equipment is very shortsighted.  The raiders will need replacement players over time, and guess what the pool is that you draw replacements from.  The smaller the gap, the easier it is to enter into raiding even late into the game.  I understand the concept of risk vs reward, the problem being that if you can get it without raiding then why would anyone bother raiding.  Its a very fine line to tread.Right now mythicals belong to raid guilds and the wealthy.  As did the previous incarnations of "ubah loot".  Maybe that's how it has to be.

[DragonMaster2385]

Yes, mythicals are more powerful than the Claymore/Soulfire rewards, but it is escalation. Look at the Fabled version of the epics. Non raiders NEVER got anything that powerful in Tier 7 so easily (if at all), so comparing T7 and T8 endgame is comparing apples and oranges. Itemization changed since T7, so the end game quest reward changed with it.

[Noaani]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>Perhaps the solution is to introduce tons of similar effects, so the opening solo quests in TSO provide plate tanks with armor qith damage reduction on it - 1% here and there adds up.<i><b> Of course, this leads to mudflation and trivializes older content. Is that a good solution</b></i>? </blockquote>Worked well in DoF, KoS, EoF and RoK... why not now?

[bryldan]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it is funny as hell that a lot of non raiders complain about the Mythicals and never complained about other end game items. For every tier that was, at one point, the level cap, there was a questline that resulted in an item similar to the mythicals.The difference is that the mythical is a class based achievement that non raiders get a taste of from the legendary item. TBH, we should be glad that they decided to put in Legendary versions.Give a mouse a cookie and he'll ask for a glass of milk.</blockquote>The previous weapons were fairly generic - they had a damage proc and usually some other effect like power regen that made them decent items, but not exceptionally powerful, and there were usually other items of similar power available.Mythical weapons provide multiple, unique and class-enhacing abilities that make the wielder substantially more powerful, and a group or raid even more powerful, such that those with mythicals are a step up on everyone else. With mythicals, you see the gap between raiders and non-raiders widening and in a much more noticable manner. What impact will this gap have on future game design? How will encounters be balanced? That's why people are concerned. </blockquote><p>Just because the current mythicals have multible effects dosen't make them any more spectacular than previous ones when you compare then to the other items available at that time. I started playing after KoS came out so I can't compare anything before hand. How ever the Claymore rewards from raiding part of the questline were some of the best items you could get for that slot, as a high aggro wizard in a very casual guild in KoS the deaggro proc on the final reward was more dps for me because I didnt die, than about any other item I could have posibly gotten, as far as how useful it is, I still have it in my bags and even equip it still when I think aggro may be an issue( to me that seems vert powerful indeed when I equip a item from 2 expansions ago and find it useful).</p></blockquote>While the Claymore and Soulfire weapons had some nice effects, they are not on the game-changing level as the mythical epics. Further, as each mythical has unique effects, there is a cumulative effect that makes a group or raid with mythicals substantially more powerful than a group or raid without. Couple this with things like the set bonuses from VP armor (which any mythical raid force is likely to have) and you see a big gap in power showing up between raiders and non-raiders, which makes game balance difficult. The likely outcome is that the devs simply introduce new mechanics and new items that render most items from prior expansions obsolete, thus effectively resetting everyone with each new expansion.</blockquote>So a guild full of claymore rewards and full Fabled in KoS wasn't leaps and bounds above the non-raiders lol, are you serious why do you think they implemented diminsihing returns..... of yeah it was because the raiders were leaps and bounds ahead of the non raiders at least in mitigation by so much it was not even funny.</blockquote>The power gap between raiders and non-raiders was an issue in previous expansiosn for sure, and with the EoF, you saw pretty much a reset of gear with the introduction of set bonuses and new item effects which made most KoS gear obsolete very quickly. RoK has only widened that gap as mythicals introduce unique effects that cannot be obtained anwhere else. For example, my paladin's mythical provides a flat 10% reduction to all physical damage and an additional 10% damage to heal conversion for all damage, giving me an effective 20% reduction in physical damage. There is no other way to achieve an effect like this, and it makes me substantially more powerful than a non-mythical paladin. Now, when designing content, how hard should a heroic mob hit? Should it be trivial for me, or should it challenge me but destroy less well equipped tanks?Perhaps the solution is to introduce tons of similar effects, so the opening solo quests in TSO provide plate tanks with armor qith damage reduction on it - 1% here and there adds up. Of course, this leads to mudflation and trivializes older content. Is that a good solution? </blockquote>The problem it seems you are also failing to understand is that the raiders NEED this much power to kill mobs like trak/maestro and the hard contested mobs. Your avg joe shmo does not NEED a mythical to kill heroic content so that leaves only one reason for a thread like this JEALOUSY.

[Meleania]

if anything mythicals should be made so people cant buy them that didnt earn them. and no having that much plat doesnt mean you earned it

[Gungo]

<cite>Narcia@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>if anything mythicals should be made so people cant buy them that didnt earn them. and no having that much plat doesnt mean you earned it</blockquote>I think raid flagging kinda of does that. Which means for people who buy thier mythical. They actually had to kill the targets to get thier mythical it is not like they just zoned in to open a chest. This topic is so full of biased bad information it isn't even funny. Diminishign returns wasnt put in to nerf raiders, it was put in to allow for gear progression. Because people even non raiders were starting to hit the hard caps.And yes mythicals should be left in raids, thats why they specifically made a non raid version. It is also why many of the mythical are raid wide effects or raidcentric effects.

[DragonMaster2385]

<cite>Narcia@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>if anything mythicals should be made so people cant buy them that didnt earn them. and no having that much plat doesnt mean you earned it</blockquote>Lol, so esencially, you request that SOE impliments logic that if someone opens trade for plat > x, they cannot get a mythical update for y hours?  Yeah, I see them doing something like that <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Currently, you see "Selling looting rights for [item] in MC.  PST with offer."  Nobody seems to have a problem with this when in fact, they didn't earn the item, they weren't there for the kill, and they aren't even locked from the zone!  When people "buy" mythical updates, they do have to contribute to the raid, they can't just /autofollow for 4 hours.I won't be buying my update since I want to earn it with my guild, but I have no problem with non raiders that want to part with ~400 plat for the updates.  It takes a lot of time to earn that kind of cash, and I love my plat too much to part with that much for just one item.

[Lady Shai]

<p><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff9900;font-family: georgia,palatino;"><i>I have VERY strong thoughts and feelings on this subject as most of my guildies will tell you.</i></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff9900;font-family: georgia,palatino;"><i>So..this is my official disclaimer lol </i></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff9900;font-family: georgia,palatino;"><i>The following is only my thoughts and feelings, no one elses.</i></span></p><p><i><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff9900;font-family: Georgia;">/rant on</span></i></p><p><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff9900;font-family: georgia,palatino;"><i>I think that there was a reason why there were 2 versions fo the epics.  Fabled, and Mythical. In my mind, Fabled were meant for anyone in or not in a guild to be able to get. Mythical tho is meant for those who raid to get. It's NOT meant for everyone to have. If you want one then work your rear off in <u><b>your</b></u> guild to get to the places to get them updated.</i></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff9900;font-family: georgia,palatino;"><i>I have seen so many people that buy their Myths and it ticks me off. Seriously. Items that are sold for loot rights...not a big deal to me...cos anyone can go in there and get a chance for it to drop off a mob. It took me 60 times to finally get my PG to drop. I STILL havent gotten that dang Fuchia Finery to drop for me in MC. But thats ok....i wil get it eventually cos I am working towards it and doing the work needed ie  running the zones. It has a chance to drop!</i></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff9900;font-family: georgia,palatino;"><i>The Myths are done by updates in zones that you need a strong guild to get to. If you dont have a strong guild then either stay where you are and be as you are, work harder with your guild to get thru the tiers, or change guilds. Its demeaning in my mind, especially with smaller guilds, to go off and <u>BUY</u> your updates when your guild is working hard to get there. You just gave them the message that they arent good enough atm so you went to another guild that was to get it. That is just wrong. </i></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff9900;font-family: georgia,palatino;"><i>The way I feel is that the Mythicals are somethign you need to work for. That DOESNT mean to pay another guild X amt of plat to go and sit quietly in the group while they do all the work. That doesnt mean that you pay to get in the raid if you are already flagged to have them zone you in etc so you can get an update you never earned the right for. I actually had someone tell me that they can take OK now cos their guild now has mythicals that they bought....well HELLO?!?! People have been doing it <u>without</u> Mythicals...just cos you have one doesnt make you a better player if you were a sucky player to begin with. It just makes you a sucky player with a Mythical that you didnt earn on your own.</i></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff9900;font-family: georgia,palatino;"><i>So yes, they should not be bought...and I am sure people will not agree with me and thats ok. But dont sit there and equate it to buying an item that DROPPED off a name that any one the right level can get a group and go to with getting an update off names in a T4 raid zone where you havent done the work to get to.</i></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff9900;font-family: georgia,palatino;"><i> /rant off</i></span></p>

[Dasein]

<cite>bryldan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The problem it seems you are also failing to understand is that the raiders NEED this much power to kill mobs like trak/maestro and the hard contested mobs. Your avg joe shmo does not NEED a mythical to kill heroic content so that leaves only one reason for a thread like this JEALOUSY.</blockquote>It is far less of an issue to scale a handful of encounters to existing gear than it is to create new weapons which have a potentially imbalancing impact on all content. The devs can scale Trak, Maestro and the Avatars to whatever level of power they want, but if they add new equipment with new effects, that will impact all content. Thus, the trend should be towards designing encounters which are challenging with existing equipment instead of contributing to mudflation and power gaps by adding more powerful gear to take on more powerful encounters.

[Rorasis]

I'm not much of a raider.  I understand perfectly that raiders are going to get special items.  If I want my templar's mythical so badly at 80, I'd just save up the money and buy my way into the raids for it.  Not a big deal.  I don't like to raid normally.  It's just not my playstyle.  I'm more of a roleplayer, crafter, and single-grouper.  Not much of a soloer.  People who don't raid should feel grateful that the option to "Buy" your mythical is there at all.  I know I am.

[Full_Metal_Mage]

<cite>Lady Shai wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: georgia,palatino;color: #ff9900;"><i>I have VERY strong thoughts and feelings on this subject as most of my guildies will tell you.</i></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: georgia,palatino;color: #ff9900;"><i>So..this is my official disclaimer lol </i></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: georgia,palatino;color: #ff9900;"><i>The following is only my thoughts and feelings, no one elses.</i></span></p><p><i><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Georgia;color: #ff9900;">/rant on</span></i></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: georgia,palatino;color: #ff9900;"><i>I think that there was a reason why there were 2 versions fo the epics.  Fabled, and Mythical. In my mind, Fabled were meant for anyone in or not in a guild to be able to get. Mythical tho is meant for those who raid to get. It's NOT meant for everyone to have. If you want one then work your rear off in <u><b>your</b></u> guild to get to the places to get them updated.</i></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: georgia,palatino;color: #ff9900;"><i>I have seen so many people that buy their Myths and it ticks me off. Seriously. Items that are sold for loot rights...not a big deal to me...cos anyone can go in there and get a chance for it to drop off a mob. It took me 60 times to finally get my PG to drop. I STILL havent gotten that dang Fuchia Finery to drop for me in MC. But thats ok....i wil get it eventually cos I am working towards it and doing the work needed ie  running the zones. It has a chance to drop!</i></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: georgia,palatino;color: #ff9900;"><i>The Myths are done by updates in zones that you need a strong guild to get to. If you dont have a strong guild then either stay where you are and be as you are, work harder with your guild to get thru the tiers, or change guilds. Its demeaning in my mind, especially with smaller guilds, to go off and <u>BUY</u> your updates when your guild is working hard to get there. You just gave them the message that they arent good enough atm so you went to another guild that was to get it. That is just wrong. </i></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: georgia,palatino;color: #ff9900;"><i>The way I feel is that the Mythicals are somethign you need to work for. That DOESNT mean to pay another guild X amt of plat to go and sit quietly in the group while they do all the work. That doesnt mean that you pay to get in the raid if you are already flagged to have them zone you in etc so you can get an update you never earned the right for. I actually had someone tell me that they can take OK now cos their guild now has mythicals that they bought....well HELLO?!?! People have been doing it <u>without</u> Mythicals...just cos you have one doesnt make you a better player if you were a sucky player to begin with. It just makes you a sucky player with a Mythical that you didnt earn on your own.</i></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: georgia,palatino;color: #ff9900;"><i>So yes, they should not be bought...and I am sure people will not agree with me and thats ok. But dont sit there and equate it to buying an item that DROPPED off a name that any one the right level can get a group and go to with getting an update off names in a T4 raid zone where you havent done the work to get to.</i></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: georgia,palatino;color: #ff9900;"><i> /rant off</i></span></p></blockquote>That's some high horse's backside you're sitting on. Personally, I think that if I ever find myself 'working' at a video game, I'll go out and find something a bit more productive to do with my time. Meanwhile, I'll play the game as I choose. If I ever find myself in a position to obtain some special game item by bartering some game coin I've picked up through game play, I won't hesitate to do so. I might even name that weapon 'Shai Bane'.

[Faenril]

I don't have a big problem with ppl buying mythicals. Like in real life almost all can be bought in the game, those who don't like it have to deal with it. Ppl may argue that raid guilds update the mythical quests for non raider ranked members, once the main raid force masters the mobs. Those ppl don't really desserve it right, so why woudln't you get your myth if you pay after all ? With that being said there are 2 aspects to consider in the mythical weapon IMO: 1) It's a powerful item. For almost all classes the most powerful item currently available for its slot. So it's a way to make your toon stronger, which is one reason why many of us log on daily. It's just a tool, one more item in the game. 2) It's a reward for time invested, showing decent skills as a raid force, a sign of accomplishment. When after months of slow - and sometimes painful - progression, when ppl finally get their final update they just "stand still for a moment" and say "waow we did it !!". Even if accomplishing something in a video game means very little, it gives a feeling of satisfaction, and pride. Ppl who buy their mythical get aspect #1, it's probably all they are interested in anyway. But they don't get aspect #2 at all. To some ppl #2 matters as much or even more than #1.

[GangleG]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bryldan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The problem it seems you are also failing to understand is that the raiders NEED this much power to kill mobs like trak/maestro and the hard contested mobs. Your avg joe shmo does not NEED a mythical to kill heroic content so that leaves only one reason for a thread like this JEALOUSY.</blockquote>It is far less of an issue to scale a handful of encounters to existing gear than it is to create new weapons which have a potentially imbalancing impact on all content. The devs can scale Trak, Maestro and the Avatars to whatever level of power they want, but if they add new equipment with new effects, that will impact all content. Thus, the trend should be towards designing encounters which are challenging with existing equipment instead of contributing to mudflation and power gaps by adding more powerful gear to take on more powerful encounters. </blockquote>Those mobs were designed to be beat with mythicals.  Dumbing encounters down simply because you're jealous of an item someone else has is idiocy.

[Triste-Lune]

anyone who purchased his mythical should be stripped off it by GM, the plat he paid should remain to the guild he bough it from cause anyone too lazy to raid and work for their reward as well as concider that mythical item are for soloplayer should be punished.

[Kendricke]

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>anyone who purchased his mythical should be stripped off it by GM, the plat he paid should remain to the guild he bough it from cause anyone too lazy to raid and work for their reward as well as concider that mythical item are for soloplayer should be punished.</blockquote><p>My guild is able to get mythicals on our own.  What if I offered a friend a chance to come raid with us one night if we happen to have an open raid slot.  What if during that raid, we happen to kill the dragon my friend needs to complete his mythical epic?  Would that be a bad thing?</p>

[Faenril]

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>anyone who purchased his mythical should be stripped off it by GM, the plat he paid should remain to the guild he bough it from cause anyone too lazy to raid and work for their reward as well as concider that mythical item are for soloplayer should be punished.</blockquote><p>My guild is able to get mythicals on our own.  What if I offered a friend a chance to come raid with us one night if we happen to have an open raid slot.  What if during that raid, we happen to kill the dragon my friend needs to complete his mythical epic?  Would that be a bad thing?</p></blockquote>Exactly you can't prevent ppl from buying mythicals because there is just no safe criteria to define what a "legit" mythical is <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />What about ppl who join a raid guild and leave as soon as they got their update for instance ?

[Full_Metal_Mage]

Why aren't all of these people who a whining about raid guilds helping other players get their Mythicals also all up in arms and throwing temper tantrums about the broker? People have been using the broker for four years to buy and sell Legendary and Fabled gear. Imagine that! Players buying Fabled items that the did not work to get! It's an outrage! I demand that everyone who has ever obtained even one Fabled item (including a Master I!) either through the broker, through a trade with another player, withdrawn from a guild bank, shared bank, or house vault have their account banned by a GM! Immediately! If they did not kill the mob that dropped that Fabled item (including a Master I!) and loot the Fabled item I (including a Master I!) themselves then they did not earn it! They have destroyed this game by buying gear they did not earn! It's an outrage!And now, back to our regularly scheduled whining.

[Mogzilla]

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>anyone who purchased his mythical should be stripped off it by GM, the plat he paid should remain to the guild he bough it from cause anyone too lazy to raid and work for their reward as well as concider that mythical item are for soloplayer should be punished.</blockquote><p>Wow, what an unbelievably small minded comment.</p><p>I happen to play a class that almost all raiding guilds will not touch with a 10 foot pole (bruiser).</p><p>Guess how many raiding guilds on my server want a bruiser, none is the exact amount.</p><p>There is exactly two bruiser myths on my servers that are mains and did not buy them.  The rest are bought or alts.</p><p>My only real choice to get mine is buy it or roll a dirge or something and get into a raiding guild and get it for my bruiser.</p><p>Alot of people also play at odd hours and can not find a raiding guild that raids when they can.</p><p>Think before you spout off stuff accusing people  of being lazy.</p>

[DragonMaster2385]

<cite>Lady Shai wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: small;font-family: georgia,palatino;color: #ff9900;"><i>The Myths are done by updates in zones that you need a strong guild to get to. If you dont have a strong guild then either stay where you are and be as you are, work harder with your guild to get thru the tiers, or change guilds. Its demeaning in my mind, especially with smaller guilds, to go off and <u>BUY</u> your updates when your guild is working hard to get there. You just gave them the message that they arent good enough atm so you went to another guild that was to get it. That is just wrong. </i></span></blockquote>I don't think it is your place to tell people how thier guild responds to these actions.  Yes, if guilds are raiding and are trying to get into VP, then some of them will have this mentality.  But, other guild leaders/officers will have the point of view that if someone has thier mythical, they will be stronger for thier raid force and they will have the experience of clearing VP.  If someone decides to buy a mythical, it is thier responsibility to check with thier guild leader and no one outside of the guild (you) should tell them they are "demeaning" thier guild.The fact is, your server knows which guilds are and are not in VP.  So if they see someone with a guild that is not in VP, they <strike>know</strike> assume it was bought.  People still distinguish between players that earned and players that bought mythicals, so you need not to worry about others deminishing the value of your efforts.

[Dasein]

<cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bryldan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The problem it seems you are also failing to understand is that the raiders NEED this much power to kill mobs like trak/maestro and the hard contested mobs. Your avg joe shmo does not NEED a mythical to kill heroic content so that leaves only one reason for a thread like this JEALOUSY.</blockquote>It is far less of an issue to scale a handful of encounters to existing gear than it is to create new weapons which have a potentially imbalancing impact on all content. The devs can scale Trak, Maestro and the Avatars to whatever level of power they want, but if they add new equipment with new effects, that will impact all content. Thus, the trend should be towards designing encounters which are challenging with existing equipment instead of contributing to mudflation and power gaps by adding more powerful gear to take on more powerful encounters. </blockquote>Those mobs were designed to be beat with mythicals.  Dumbing encounters down simply because you're jealous of an item someone else has is idiocy.</blockquote>You are missing the point. It is not about dumbing down anything, but rather trying to keep the power gap between players as narrow as possible, this allowing more poeple to enjoy more content, and curtailing mudflation, thus keeping itemization across content more even, thus preserving the value of older zones and older content. All in all, this leads to the game offerring more content to more people and increasing the lifespan of existing content, thus giving new players a better experience, leading to higher populations and a better game for everyone.

[Gaige]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="Apple-style-span"></span>It is not about dumbing down anything, but rather trying to keep the power gap between players as narrow as possible</blockquote>If the power difference between a pure soloer and a hardcore raider is "as narrow as possible" what is the incentive for raiding?  Why not just solo, since you'll end up being as good.

[Thunndar316]

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>anyone who purchased his mythical should be stripped off it by GM, the plat he paid should remain to the guild he bough it from cause anyone too lazy to raid and work for their reward as well as concider that mythical item are for soloplayer should be punished.</blockquote><p>Grow up.  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>A year from now these weapons will be obsolete anyway</p>