I know there is an NDA and all that... blah blah blah.

[Boli32]

OK; you talk about improving zerkers and SKs, you say you have already "fixed" brawlers; and yet still keeping Guardian #1 for tanks.The question boggles me; in a world where 2 tanks is the norm; and ahead of the HUGE revamp and massive increases zerkers and SKs are going to be getting."Where on earth does a tank who is already bottem of the rung as far as damage potential; and already holds agro more through transfers and agro based skills than actual dps (i.e. the orginal vision of what a tank was); future lie"?I have no desire to log on after the expansion to find myself much worse off than we are now; and find a slew of skills and abilities removed and replaced with "get hit and procs a small turtle for your group" sort of abilities.Zerkers were not broken; they had some issues like every other class (and paladins do); and they are getting improvements (apparantly) - tho I'll admit SKs needed some looking at.  The major problem with everything is in a raiding sense unless thngs change you'll be bringing 2 tanks out of 6 tanks to 95% of the content; a wizard may log on to find some of his spells have changed but he'll know his role is always going to be "dps" tanks on the other hand unless you are a guardian log on at every update scared out of their mind that a single small change could render them entirely useless and stood outside zones for the next year.In a world where guardians are king - who gets to be OT is fought over tooth and nail at every expansion; I know we are not meant to request dev feedback at all but where you have already hinted to SKs and zerkers they are getting widespread changes and improvements all we are asking for some assurances that Paladins are going to get looked at and something more than just being thrown a heal spell and expected to "make it work".These class forums haven't seen a dev presence since a lot of posts were removed as a huge debate was wrangling over the worth of paladins in a raid/group. The people who were trolling those threads and making the least amount of sense were the ones who were NOT banned and remain here, those who actually did know the class inside out knew the faults weaknesses and strengths of the class were in some cases banned but in most chased off now no-one on these forums even bothers to correct it when people go claiming wisdom boasts our spells damage or int is used for power.What I'm getting at is I hope that the Paladins are being looked at in a considerate and useful manner and not being thrown together at the last minuite by skimming posts on these forums that are quite often completly wrong but remain so b/c no-one bothers to correct them anymore.If needs be I can give you a list of great paladins to talk through the changes and help you decide upon their direction.. b/c the feedback this particular class has gotten has been "dev tried the class was bad it and and didn't like it - the end" doesn't really fill us with confidence for the great fighter rebalanceSo in short; This particular class and this Paladin woud like some assurances that we won't need to start rerolling our toons this paricular expansion in order to help our guilds.And before you say it yes I have applied for beta and I would be more than willing to lend my help in that reguard <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[betatester7]

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>And before you say it yes I have applied for beta and I would be more than willing to lend my help in that reguard <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>we can't say yes, even we can't talk about it, so we can deny or confirm that.But I agree with you, Paladin Class should be more than tank/healer, in the SK forums, they're going to get a nice revamp in next few months or years, but what about revamp to Crusader class (Paladin and SK).

[Madbiker]

<p>Great post here Boli; I've seen the "leaked" screenshot of all the class abilities and looking at getting abilities other classes already have is a big turn off for me.  I dont mean to offend the great people designing the only game I've really played and enjoyed the last four years, but cut and paste abilities from other classes is lazy and boring. I guess the only real excitment that lies a head is the fact I can betray to a shadowknight, or mainswitch to my zerker (the classes that needed nothing improved).</p><p>As far as offering input, you guys can ADD ME TO THE LIST!!!  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[Rast]

<p>Is also interested, though I will admit, I do not have the experience at the class as a mbiker and Boli have, I would love to hear similiar information.</p>

[Cotey]

Boli I think I know where you are heading...there is a beta so many people know details about next expantion bonuses,the so called balance was based on fact that every tank now his own disadvantages:guardian:+dps++spike dmg protection+single target aggro-multiple target aggrozerk:++dps+spike dmg protection-aggro (fixed with mythical?)pally:-dps-spike dmg protection+aggro both single and multi targetSK - I don't know the detailson purpose I am not speaking about chance to block... now vs revamp?now if minuses of other tanks are going to be fixed (in expansion or already done by myth) where is pally going to end?no dps, almost no o-sh*t button; good aggro - but is it enough having other tanks love in this area?

[Valphine]

Ok I guess paladin dont have much problem with aggro... just hope we dont need to pay for that, then we back on square 1.

[Meirril]

<p>Actually, paladins do have an agro problem. </p><p>Over a long fight, with the proper support we can generate more agro (straight number) than any other class. However, our ability to overcome deagros is weak at best.</p><p>Currently we have sigil of heroism, rescue, and holy ground. Rescue is available to all fighter classes. I wouldn't talk about it except for one small issue. We get no method to improve rescue, while other fighters do. So rescue isn't even equal amongst all fighters, it is neglected in paladin AA and itemization.</p><p>Holy ground is semi-useful. It doesn't do what it was stated as its intention. Instead of placing us in second position, it places us on top. We can loose this position instantly because holy ground generates no agro on top of placing us in position one. For maintaining agro we depend on amends and other support classes. However, if we need to use holy ground 1) we need to chase the mob long enough to land a melee hit. With long delay weapons encouraged by our spell casting nature plus the long delay on our epic this becomes generally 1 or 2 chances to regain agro; and 2) amends gives us a huge advantage in building agro but without a little lead time the extra 40% generated via amends won't prevent DPS classes from taking agro with burst damage unless they are the amends target.</p><p>Sigil of Heroism is our dependable. Unfortunately it is our only dependable, and has a long recast timer. However, before it takes effect there will be some lag time for agro to be generated. This lag time will cost a raid a few deaths before it rights itself.</p><p>Assuming you have a raid target that likes to deagro, after rescue and sigil are down the entire raid is in trouble. While amends makes up for a lack of DPS, it doesn't make up for other classes snap agro control methods that are more effective. For that we would need not just abilities that generate agro faster, but actual position control methods that are more reliable.</p><p>Also, for as much of a strength that amends is, it is also a weakness. If the amends target becomes neutralized during an encounter (stun, stiffle, power drain, death) the paladin looses the majority if its agro control. Other tank classes don't suffer as much from the loss of a single support class. Trying to pick a new amends target during an encounter is practically an excersize in futility. Untargeting the mob, picking a survivor from your group, and then re-engaging the mob is a less than ideal option. Other tanks don't suffer as much when re-establishing hate because they are not dependend on others as much as paladins are.</p><p>All in all, amends has a great potential. Paladins fully utalize that potential. However, it has become a crutch. Because of amends we are being held back from advancing. Somehow, I think we would be much better off if we never received amends as we may have actually been given other significant abilities and improvments rather than being told "you hold agro just fine, you don't need anything".</p>

[Cotey]

to be honest I don't feel aggro issues now;I can ussually create more aggro than our MT guard and another OT zerk and also grab aggro faster in critical situation;the gap was bigger before, now with their myths (zerk + dps and aggro, guard ++ dps) the gap is much smaller, but still not an issue;I don't even cry for more dps potential because I don't feel it is so important for pallies (even though this gap is bigger and bigger lately with all the love guards and zerks received), it is an issue, but not top priority for me personally;but what trully concernes me is no spike dmg protection and this is issue no. 1 which really threatens pallies ability being sucessful OT;we are the only one left without any short time protection and now it T4 where you can go down by 2 hits it is very dangerous to grab aggro or when healers are stunned or when healers are kicked away etc. etc. - and these situation are more often in T4 than ever before;one hit protection hardly solves anything, we need something to survive at least few seconds before we are warded and overhealed, healers are cured, run back to you etc.end ability of sta AA line is the only way and it is less and less useful - long recast and against big nameds hitting really hard good for nothing...

[Madbiker]

Sigil doesnt work nearly as well as it used to in t6 or t7,  It needs beefed up