Is the Bruiser class dead?

[Mogzilla]

<p>Wow up until this post there has not been a single post in this forum since 9/15/08.</p><p>4 full days of no posting.</p><p>Seems to me the RoK pretty much killed off the bruiser class as the monk raid wide buffs is so much better and peel + tsunami owns.</p><p>Even the dps difference is not very much between monks and bruisers anymore.</p><p>Given that most raids generally only want 1 brawler, its seems to me that 99.9% of the time that monk is the brawler that is most wanted.</p><p>My server has only 1 or 2 bruisers mains with their mythical that were not bought, but a ton of monk mythical mains.</p><p>Bruisers are also the least played fighter class at level 80.</p><p>I hope bruisers get something in the next expansion because as of now it looks like bruisers are in danger of becoming extinct.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Not that the class is dead but just a class without a defining purpose is all. For many months bruisers have been posting thoughts and ideas to help better this class yet nothing has been acknowledged. We solo better than paladins, zekers, and guards but are far behind the soloing abilities of the mages and in some cases scouts. In groups all we can really offer is tanking and somewhat decent dps, but monks can do almost everything a bruiser can and have nice group support (this is where bruiser lacks), and dps classes are far and above us as well.</p><p>Monks just offer better all round performance in comparison to a bruiser. Tanking and dps between the two brawlers are almost equal, yet monks have a much better raid wide, heal, and other group benefits. This is what gives the monks the greater appeal.  Bruisers as a class cannot touch what monks offer as a class hands down.</p><p>Again the bruiser class isn't broken but is a class that just cannot offer any noticable benefits that monks, other fighters, and scouts provide.</p><p>I think the reason this forum is slow is the fact that most bruisers are just waiting. All that has been said has been said and nothing more will matter at this point.</p>

[Mogzilla]

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Not that the class is dead but just a class without a defining purpose is all. For many months bruisers have been posting thoughts and ideas to help better this class yet nothing has been acknowledged. We solo better than paladins, zekers, and guards but are far behind the soloing abilities of the mages and in some cases scouts. In groups all we can really offer is tanking and somewhat decent dps, but monks can do almost everything a bruiser can and have nice group support (this is where bruiser lacks), and dps classes are far and above us as well.</p><p>Monks just offer better all round performance in comparison to a bruiser. Tanking and dps between the two brawlers are almost equal, yet monks have a much better raid wide, heal, and other group benefits. This is what gives the monks the greater appeal.  Bruisers as a class cannot touch what monks offer as a class hands down.</p><p>Again the bruiser class isn't broken but is a class that just cannot offer any noticable benefits that monks, other fighters, and scouts provide.</p><p>I think the reason this forum is slow is the fact that most bruisers are just waiting. All that has been said has been said and nothing more will matter at this point.</p></blockquote><p>I disagree that we tank the same as monks.</p><p>Maybe once you get your mythical that is true.</p><p>But up until that point, tsunami clearly owns anything bruisers have tanking wise.</p><p>I regularly group with a monk and when he is tanking, he always uses tsunami to keep from dying in those situations when we get hit with those big amounts of spike damage, which happens quite a bit as a brawler.</p><p>We are the only fighter class to my knowledge that does not have an inate ability (through spells or AA's) to make themselves immune to damage in those "oh crap" situations.</p><p>Crusaders get divine aura, guardians get tower of stone, monks get tsunumi, bezerkers adrenaline.</p>

[Mogzilla]

<p>Also I have noticed the devs have been posting in the SK and zerker forum, but not the bruiser forum.</p><p>I am not very optimistic about bruisers this expansion.</p><p>I guess its time to dust off the SK alt.</p>

[Aull]

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Not that the class is dead but just a class without a defining purpose is all. For many months bruisers have been posting thoughts and ideas to help better this class yet nothing has been acknowledged. We solo better than paladins, zekers, and guards but are far behind the soloing abilities of the mages and in some cases scouts. In groups all we can really offer is tanking and somewhat decent dps, but monks can do almost everything a bruiser can and have nice group support (this is where bruiser lacks), and dps classes are far and above us as well.</p><p>Monks just offer better all round performance in comparison to a bruiser. Tanking and dps between the two brawlers are almost equal, yet monks have a much better raid wide, heal, and other group benefits. This is what gives the monks the greater appeal.  Bruisers as a class cannot touch what monks offer as a class hands down.</p><p>Again the bruiser class isn't broken but is a class that just cannot offer any noticable benefits that monks, other fighters, and scouts provide.</p><p>I think the reason this forum is slow is the fact that most bruisers are just waiting. All that has been said has been said and nothing more will matter at this point.</p></blockquote><p>I disagree that we tank the same as monks.</p><p>Maybe once you get your mythical that is true.</p><p>But up until that point, tsunami clearly owns anything bruisers have tanking wise.</p><p>I regularly group with a monk and when he is tanking, he always uses tsunami to keep from dying in those situations when we get hit with those big amounts of spike damage, which happens quite a bit as a brawler.</p><p>We are the only fighter class to my knowledge that does not have an inate ability (through spells or AA's) to make themselves immune to damage in those "oh crap" situations.</p><p>Crusaders get divine aura, guardians get tower of stone, monks get tsunumi, bezerkers adrenaline.</p></blockquote><p>I understand you point. However tsunami isn't until canceled either. Its duration is like 9-12 seconds depending on the ca rank. Once tsunami is over and all equip and stats being equal both brawlers tank very close to the same. A very slightly adavange to the bruiser with the increased agili from battle fury or lust vs melee damage and with the higher wisdom from chakara the monk would be very slightly ahead vs casters.</p><p>Knockout combo for a bruiser if played correctly will keep everyday norrath mobs stunned for its duration which allows the bruiser to take minimal damage for 20 secs. Knockout combo outshines tsunami in this regard since the duration is 20 secs with major damage vs a 9-12 sec parry all melee damage without any extra damage but knockout combo's stun will not work against epics where tsunami will. There are some instanced named mobs that knockout combo's stun will not work on either. So avantange bruiser vs most non epic mobs and avantage monk vs epic mobs.</p><p>Tsunami is awesome no doubt but in my experience the really only advange it has is that is can be useful against epics where knockout combo's stun is not.</p><p>Yes I do agree that bruisers do not have an "oh !@#$" ability that can be mentioned along the lines of what you posted. </p>

[Aull]

<p>Yeah and if bruisers do not become better this next expansion I am done with mine and will go for my sk or zerker as well.</p>

[Mogzilla]

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I understand you point. However tsunami isn't until canceled either. Its duration is like 9-12 seconds depending on the ca rank. Once tsunami is over and all equip and stats being equal both brawlers tank very close to the same. </blockquote><p>Oh yeah, for sure once those 9-12 seconds are up they tank the same.</p><p>But do not underestimate how powerful those 9-12 seconds are.</p><p>Sure it doesnt seem like a long time but 9-12 seconds are an enternity in game</p><p>Those 9-12 seconds allow the healers to get things under control get you healed up and their wards/reactives back on you.</p><p>Very useful when you take those major spikes in damage or in cases of bad lag spikes.</p><p>Maybee if KO worked on epics and you could stun lock them for 20 seconds that would make up the difference.</p><p>However in order for KO to work you have to land the CA, something not easily done in defensive stance against higher con mobs.</p><p>Also KO only works against one target for the most part, yeah you can hit KO and aoe, but our AOE have to long of a cast time to effectively stun lock a large group of mobs.  So here also Tsunami > KO against more then one target.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

FYI Your stance has nothing to do with your ability to land CAs.

[Mogzilla]

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>FYI Your stance has nothing to do with your ability to land CAs. </blockquote><p>Yeah I have often thought that myself, but others swear that it does.</p><p>It only lowers your chance to hit with auto attack correct?</p><p>But by the same token when casters improve their disruption does it not cause their spells to be resisted less?</p><p>Would it not hold true that if we improved our melee skills that we would land more CA?</p><p>When I land front kick for instance, its says "x amount of crushing damage".</p>

[Aull]

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I understand you point. However tsunami isn't until canceled either. Its duration is like 9-12 seconds depending on the ca rank. Once tsunami is over and all equip and stats being equal both brawlers tank very close to the same. </blockquote><p>Oh yeah, for sure once those 9-12 seconds are up they tank the same.</p><p>But do not underestimate how powerful those 9-12 seconds are.</p><p>Sure it doesnt seem like a long time but 9-12 seconds are an enternity in game</p><p>Those 9-12 seconds allow the healers to get things under control get you healed up and their wards/reactives back on you.</p><p>Very useful when you take those major spikes in damage or in cases of bad lag spikes.</p><p>Maybee if KO worked on epics and you could stun lock them for 20 seconds that would make up the difference.</p><p>However in order for KO to work you have to land the CA, something not easily done in defensive stance against higher con mobs.</p><p>Also KO only works against one target for the most part, yeah you can hit KO and aoe, but our AOE have to long of a cast time to effectively stun lock a large group of mobs.  So here also Tsunami > KO against more then one target.</p></blockquote><p>I didn't think of fighting two or more mobs either so yes tsunami would be much more powerful than knockout. Very valid point you have and thanks for bringing it to my attention. Yes the tsunami/peel combo is a great tool for when a mt has died or is about to die. I think that monks have more abilities at their disposal to accomplish feats that no bruiser can do at this time. I am fine with this since I believe that every class should have something that they as a class do better than their brother or sister class. However a bruiser doesn't have any thing that justifies having one in a group or raid that a monk can do equally or better.</p><p>I think ca's are dodged/parried more when I am in defensive stance but I don't really ever use it because it seems I miss more and more while using it. I am no expert in that department nor am I in any mmo mechanics field.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

Crushing skill affects our autoattack.   The only thing boosting a CA's chance to hit is the quality, (IE adept 1, adept 3 master1) of the CA itself. 

[Novusod]

The bruiser class is in bad shape but I am not ready to declare an entire class quite dead yet. There are a couple of things that leave me hopefully about the future.1. High end bruisers that have their mythicals seem to enjoy their class and feel wanted in raids. 2. With the new expansion about to release we should see some nerfs to the gatekeeps of our mythicals so low and mid range bruisers can become ballanced through better gear.3. Rumor of new AAs coming soon that boost our tanking by quite a bit. Yes our raid wide is trash but it is not so horrible that it would keep a deticated bruiser out of a lower end raiding guild and if mythicals come into reach of the low end then all should be good in terms of ballance with other classes at the same point in progression.

[Aull]

<p> First of all Crabbok is so cool! Anyone who can get a cat to stop for a few mins and swing/punch with its paws then link that image to the forums is awesome in my book!! LOL. All joking aside if bruisers needing their mythical just to be viable for raids or needing mythicals to be happy with their class is not a good enough excuse in my opinion. Bruisers need work at the core base of the bruiser class and shouldn't in no way be obligated through equipment to fix issues that are totally fixable on the core base class lvl. Bruiser mythical is great no doubt in my mind but what about those that are casual gamers? Mythicals and high end raid gear are the cherry on the top, but if that is all that justifies a bruiser or any class for that matter then to me that states the class is [Removed for Content] to begin with and noone should group with them until they are able to get this equipment?</p><p> Other classes with benefical class abilities and no mythical are better than a class that has a mythical and yet no benefical class abilities. Sorry but "oh wait till you get your mythical then we will consider you" or "you will be awesome once you get your mythical" type of attitude is for the dogs and shows that problems exsist much deeper in that class than what most equipment can cover or make up for. Equipment to a degree should help a class capitalize or enhance on already exsisting class abilities such as tanking, utility (self or group), dps, or anything other that applies, but equipment shouldn't be what saves a class. Great equipment is a reward for a job well done and not a manditory saving grace imho.</p><p> Do not misunderstand me for those of you who have worked hard for your mythical. You deserve it! I am working on my bruiser mythical. I may not get it put I am trying my best. All I ask is that as a bruiser class being stripped of all equipment and looking at it from the core base what do we really offer as a class?</p><p>Thanks for your time.</p>

[Mogzilla]

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crushing skill affects our autoattack.   The only thing boosting a CA's chance to hit is the quality, (IE adept 1, adept 3 master1) of the CA itself.  </blockquote>Yeah that is what I though, but was not 100% sure.

[Gilasil]

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Seems to me the RoK pretty much killed off the bruiser class as the monk raid wide buffs is so much better and peel + tsunami owns.</p><p>...it looks like bruisers are in danger of becoming extinct.</p></blockquote><p>Doesn't appear to be going extinct from my point of view.  I play my bruiser a couple hours almost every single night.  It gets much more time then my monk.</p><p>I don't know about the hard core raiding scene -- maybe there are no bruisers there.  That doesn't mean they're extinct.</p><p>It could be that there are no posts because nobody has anything new to say.  Ok, bruisers have trouble getting into hard core raids and even justifying themselves in some groups.  Been there, discussed it to death. </p>

[DisturbedMagg]

<cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Seems to me the RoK pretty much killed off the bruiser class as the monk raid wide buffs is so much better and peel + tsunami owns.</p><p>...it looks like bruisers are in danger of becoming extinct.</p></blockquote><p>Doesn't appear to be going extinct from my point of view.  I play my bruiser a couple hours almost every single night.  It gets much more time then my monk.</p><p>I don't know about the hard core raiding scene -- maybe there are no bruisers there.  That doesn't mean they're extinct.</p><p>It could be that there are no posts because nobody has anything new to say.  Ok, bruisers have trouble getting into hard core raids and even justifying themselves in some groups.  Been there, discussed it to death. </p></blockquote>There's quite a few of us hard-core raiders, but the reason none of us post in this place is because it generally filled with a load of crap about how the STR line is awesome and how there should be more 2h because the look better. Not including the fact these forums went to [rainbows and ponies!!] quite some time ago.** please do not bypass the profanity filter kkthxbai.  -- Kiara

[Gilasil]

The Str line is pretty much for those below 70 and not all of them.  I really doubt you and your friends are below 70.

[Suretass]

A few still say that its a still a useful class but its clear to me that it is dying and has been for some time. No doubt a well played bruiser can still shine over badly played or equiped players of other classes. This should not really be a consolation though.I played avidly and I am a high end MMO player, maybe not in a top guild in EQ2 but I have been playing at the top end in EQ1 for many years. I had gone to EQ2 and i really loved the concept of a Bruiser, I betrayed from Monk on my halfing many years ago when the game was new and never stuck at any alts long. Being a bruiser was ultimatly stopped me from having a good choice at high end progression in eq2.However about 6 months ago I finally gave up on my bruiser. I was unable to get groups and when I did I was often greeted by the ignorance that I was not able to tank in an exp group. I had good kit (though not raid kit) and my bruiser was specced heavily to tanking ability. Yet I found people that I did not know leaving groups once they saw a bruiser tank had been invited. This was nothing short of soul destroying, I even had stand up rants with some of these idiots.However, my role on raids was genuinely empty, I was sub par dps at best and given no important job of any kind. The last day I logged into this game my 80 bruiser was passed up as an off tank on a green con raid mob for a lvl 71 paladin with sub par gear. I camped 10 mins after this happened and I have never played the game since. My account is deactivated, I suspect it will never be activated again. Some may say that my raid leader was ignorant, ultimatly it doesn't matter if thats the case - this was just the final straw in an endless run of events that demonstrated to me that my class was of no value in this game in the eyes of players. Even if this isn't actually true, it doesnt matter - perception is everything.If Sony truely care about class balance, their customers enjoyment and especially, their money. Then they need to stop treating you like idiots. The bruiser class was a great concept, it should have its place and it should be wanted. In a smaller game like EQ2 where the number of classes is close or equal to the size of a raid force there will always be issues, unless every class brings something of value. Last time I played this game, the bruiser class did not bring this.This is why it is a rapidly dying class. It still makes me sad, I loved my character - she was so unique but ultimately you can only think this way so long when all you do is beg empty spots in guild groups, solo and harvest and sit lfg at the zone line of the interesting zones until its time to log out again.

[Aull]

 Statements from the game spam.  "The only time that a bruiser and monk are equal when in group or raiding is when the bruiser is alive and the monk is dead. This way they both bring excactly the same thing to the situation and that is nothing".  Sorry but had to post this one.

[Gungo]

<p>Hi we are not dead we are only sleeping.</p><p>And really there is not much to discuss at this point in the expansion. </p><p>Just wait and see whats around the corner.</p>

[Gilasil]

<p>After a few more raid and group experiences I'm beginning to see the light.</p><p>The bruiser is great for soloing but has no other place in EQ2.  Not gimped, just doesn't fit.</p><p>Guess we'll see what the next expansion brings.</p><p>In the meantime:</p><p>Does anyone know if Warhammer Online is any good?</p>

[Mogzilla]

<cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>After a few more raid and group experiences I'm beginning to see the light.</p><p>The bruiser is great for soloing but has no other place in EQ2.  Not gimped, just doesn't fit.</p><p>Guess we'll see what the next expansion brings.</p><p>In the meantime:</p><p>Does anyone know if Warhammer Online is any good?</p></blockquote><p>We are fine in groups, I have tanked every bit of heroic content including RE2 with a single healer in mostly instance gear without a single mythical in the group.</p><p>We can also dps well in groups when not tanking in groups.</p><p>Just need to spec and gear out for whichever role ur doing, I have a dps spec and a tank spec, and dps gear and tank gear just switch out for whatever I am doing.</p><p>The thing we lack is any sort of raid role atm.</p><p>Raids generally only need 1 brawler and monks just flat out own us because their raid wide buff is the best in the game.</p><p>I notice very much when our monk is not on the raid.  The haste and spell haste their raidwide provides is  godly.</p>

[Gilasil]

<p>Yea we can tank in instance gear, but groups almost always prefer plate tanks. </p><p>We're last choice for tanks.   From what I've seen, hardly anyone wants the brawler to be MT unless there is no plate tank, or the plate tank is several levels lower.</p>