Yeah i know there is an NDA but has SOE done anything to improve life as an sk in the Xpac

[Lord Hackenslash]

<div></div><div>Yeah i know there is an NDA but has SOE done anything to improve life as an sk in the Xpac especially in the endgame where we really feel the suck.</div><div></div><div>I am not asking for specifics as i know you cannot share that but just a general feel on whether things look better or is it another 3 years of nerfs without reason LU13 for example. </div>

[Giral]

<p>beta has only been open for a few weeks i believe and people that went to fan faire and im sure a select few others have been invited to the early beta.</p><p>chances of a Endgame Shadowknight in there ? probably like a million to 1 odds of that happaning lol , But hopefully when they fully open beta and invite alot more poeple some Sk's will get invited . </p><p>even with some of the Top Endgame shadowkights in beta ( and i know there were a few in EOF beta ) upfront it might all seem well , SK's were even saying 2 charges on bloodletter was overpowered in the EOF beta, but when it comes to actual Play in the Long run is when the issue's will present themselves , we dont see many Sk's who have the Set bonus with 2 charges of bloodletter saying we have survivability issue's. </p><p>we know we will get somethings in our AA's to address our issue's , the real question is what we get going to be enough to bring us up to equal with Other tanks with There new AA's , we are already behind them without the AA's and they also will be getting improvements with there aa's so once again we have a good chance of falling short if they Do not Balance us out taking the new aa's into account as well </p><p>the devs have said they will tweak Class specific Aa's if and when they need to , and that the new aa's will adress some of the issue's classes have brought up, but no they will not be seeking to balance classes mearly with some new AA's , im sure its part of helping but just as you cant balance classes with Gear alone, you can't balance them with AA's alone,  some of our skills and abilities by themselves are just underpowered compared to other classes and AA's and gear, and multiple mobs will greatly help us in the long run, but we need some increases to some of our Class ablities to bring them up. </p><p>i think the aa's will give us some dps increase, some agro increase, and some survivabilty increase . and that would put us where we need to be Right now without them , after that they need to tweak our Aa's and abilities to bring up the rest and then we would be where we should be Equal in similar gear , the great problem with sk;s is they need to have great gear to do an equal job with a less geared tank of other classes .  we should be doing our job in Equal gear , and when fully geared to the hilt and completly masterd we should be on equal ground with a fully geared mastered tank of any other plate class . </p><p>biggest aggrivation to me is seeing in the last few updates other classes are still getting fixes, and tweaks(even if they are just minor like making the text match what the actual skill does)  but Sk's still do not get any minor tweaks that could be reverted in the long run if they became overpowered with the new aa's . </p>

[Colcos]

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>were a few in EOF beta ) upfront it might all seem well , SK's were even saying 2 charges on bloodletter was overpowered in the EOF beta, but when it comes to actual Play in the Long run is when the issue's will present themselves , we dont see many Sk's who have the Set bonus with 2 charges of bloodletter saying we have survivability issue's. </blockquote><p>First of all, Bloodletter was a level 80 spell released with RoK, not EoF. </p><p>Second of all, The fact that someone HAS the set bonus means that they are far enough along in gear progression to be able to survive more easily. The fact that they have 6 pieces of the VP set also means that they've most likely had the opportunity to obtain some of the best defensive pieves in the game. Bloodletter's effect is very nice, and a second trigger would be much appreciated, however there are other variables that are a factor in survival. </p>

[Giral]

<cite>Colcos@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>were a few in EOF beta ) upfront it might all seem well , SK's were even saying 2 charges on bloodletter was overpowered in the EOF beta, but when it comes to actual Play in the Long run is when the issue's will present themselves , we dont see many Sk's who have the Set bonus with 2 charges of bloodletter saying we have survivability issue's. </blockquote><p>First of all, Bloodletter was a level 80 spell released with RoK, not EoF. </p><p>Second of all, The fact that someone HAS the set bonus means that they are far enough along in gear progression to be able to survive more easily. The fact that they have 6 pieces of the VP set also means that they've most likely had the opportunity to obtain some of the best defensive pieves in the game. Bloodletter's effect is very nice, and a second trigger would be much appreciated, however there are other variables that are a factor in survival. </p></blockquote><p>lol did i say eof beta ,,,my bad ,, need to learn to re-read my posts : ) </p><p>the point on Bloodletter was , that it originaly in ROK beta had 2 charges on it. people cried overpowered and it was changed to 1 charge, and one of the biggest complaints from casual to semi-hardore SK's is that they lack survivability in ROK when MT or OT comparable to Other tanks. </p><p>yeah with the 6 piece bonus and all the other poeple in your raid forced decked to the hilt you could have a mage tank most Raids ,  but thats not the point, the point is Sk's always need Great gear /spell quality to come out equal in tanking with others that can do it with less (and also it proves that people with the 6 set bonus realy dont even need it , its the sk's who dont have it that it would benefit lol, why they should remove it from the set, put it back on the spell itself, and add in a large Parry or Block instead)</p><p>and it was just an example of how you can have Top end players in Beta and they can feedback and changes can be made , but until the skills are put to the test on Live you realy wont know the whole story.  </p><p>for all we know the DEVS could have specificly invited a bunch of SK's into beta specificly to work on the Sk issue's and in the end when it goes to live even with all of that we could still come out on the bottom in the long run </p><p>P.S. left the EOF beta mistake up for others to get a laugh at my expense <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[jagermonsta]

show shadowknights still blow? not surprised :<

[Winter12345]

<p>LOL tbh I'm happy with the way SK is imo as they're great for soloing and if u like pvp they're quite godly there as well. But they'll always be shadowknight<paladin =p</p>

[Hugsnkissums]

I heard a nasty roomer that SK would become more important in the next x-pac, but I don't think there's anything real to back it up. I remember hearing the same thing when EoF came out and TBH nothing really changed. I just don't see how an SK can bring anything to the table another class wouldn't do better.

[Ama]

<cite>Hugsnkissums wrote:</cite><blockquote>I heard a nasty roomer that SK would become more important in the next x-pac, but I don't think there's anything real to back it up. I remember hearing the same thing when EoF came out and TBH nothing really changed. I just don't see how an SK can bring anything to the table another class wouldn't do better.</blockquote><p>Ya this is the one thing that ticks me off at times.  The basic answer I have always seen with 99% of raids is "Why bring a SK when you can bring another assassin, wizard, or [insert other dps class]".  Now even if they need a crusader i've rarely seen them take a SK over a paladin simply because of the diversity paladins get.  </p><p>Paladins:</p><p>1. Amends: This is the single biggest killer to SKs and to alot of tanks.  I was recently in a raid where the dang tank went LD and he was still tanking the freakin mob.  </p><p>2. Holy Ground and Sigil of Herosim: We get Deathmarch, but it doesn't compensate for much sadly.  Been in a group where i've had a good lead on a mob hit deathmarch then had a wizard hit the T8 ice coment ability ripping it off of me.  (Have myself geared up for tanking and have my epic weapon utilizing the life tap stuff whenever it is up.)</p><p>3. Revive Capabilities: Unfortunately this is another area where we are slaughtered because we have no capabilities to revive a fallen commrad.  We have a Feign Death and when that fails we are screwed, but you have a revive you're golden. </p><p>4. Healing: It is here where we are evened out just a tad, but Paladins serve more purpose.  They can group heal, single target heal and they have Lay On Hands for their OMG HOLY **** moment.  About the only thing we're lucky enough to do is use our damage shield to give a somewhat heal on a tank. </p><p>Really I have to say personally I just want to see some of our abilities tweaked.  Have our EoF hate line not only give us a 3% across group hate transfer per person, but add in a semi amends to our parry buff we can place on someone.  Even at 15-20% hate transfer plus the group hate transfer we would get something to help us out. </p><p>Deathmarch really should work where every trigger on it causes a mini rescue hate increase towards the SK.  Could also make it so whenever it procs it acts like a "Hate Dump" where a certain % of the hate towards that enemy is shifted towards the SK. </p><p>Basic thing is SK are supposed to be HATE itself and yet with our abilities it seems we are just Anoyance incarnate. </p>

[Aeralik]

Yes

[Giral]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes</blockquote><p>Troll </p><p>(but i will take your "yes" to mean " the rumors are true and Sk's will be getting so much love it hurts to bend over for the next 12 months) </p>

[Bruener]

Aerilik I really hope you aren't just getting my hopes up once again to be let down.  Of course SKs are going to see improvements, but so is every other class with new AAs coming out.  What we want is our improvements to bring us much more in-line with what the other plate fighters, specifically how awesome Guards are, atm.  So that when the dust settles and everybody is max AAs...you can look across the plate tanks and say wow they all rock.

[Aeralik]

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aerilik I really hope you aren't just getting my hopes up once again to be let down.  Of course SKs are going to see improvements, but so is every other class with new AAs coming out.  What we want is our improvements to bring us much more in-line with what the other plate fighters, specifically how awesome Guards are, atm.  So that when the dust settles and everybody is max AAs...you can look across the plate tanks and say wow they all rock.</blockquote>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough?  That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.

[Aull]

<p>Thanks for posting Aeralik. I can't wait.</p>

[FinalHolmes]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aerilik I really hope you aren't just getting my hopes up once again to be let down. Of course SKs are going to see improvements, but so is every other class with new AAs coming out. What we want is our improvements to bring us much more in-line with what the other plate fighters, specifically how awesome Guards are, atm. So that when the dust settles and everybody is max AAs...you can look across the plate tanks and say wow they all rock.</blockquote>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough? That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</blockquote> Sounds great to me!

[Wilin]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aerilik I really hope you aren't just getting my hopes up once again to be let down.  Of course SKs are going to see improvements, but so is every other class with new AAs coming out.  What we want is our improvements to bring us much more in-line with what the other plate fighters, specifically how awesome Guards are, atm.  So that when the dust settles and everybody is max AAs...you can look across the plate tanks and say wow they all rock.</blockquote>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough?  That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</blockquote><p>SKs are overdue and I hope it all works out. I have an SK alt that I like to play. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I have to imagine that this has to be part of some larger initiative to balance some things out for fighters. Are there other similar things occuring with the other fighters?</p>

[t0iletduck]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aerilik I really hope you aren't just getting my hopes up once again to be let down. Of course SKs are going to see improvements, but so is every other class with new AAs coming out. What we want is our improvements to bring us much more in-line with what the other plate fighters, specifically how awesome Guards are, atm. So that when the dust settles and everybody is max AAs...you can look across the plate tanks and say wow they all rock.</blockquote>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough? That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</blockquote>Thank you Aeralik. I recently came back to the game and am looking forward to this.

[Aull]

<cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aerilik I really hope you aren't just getting my hopes up once again to be let down.  Of course SKs are going to see improvements, but so is every other class with new AAs coming out.  What we want is our improvements to bring us much more in-line with what the other plate fighters, specifically how awesome Guards are, atm.  So that when the dust settles and everybody is max AAs...you can look across the plate tanks and say wow they all rock.</blockquote>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough?  That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</blockquote><p>SKs are overdue and I hope it all works out. I have an SK alt that I like to play. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I have to imagine that this has to be part of some larger initiative to balance some things out for fighters.<span style="font-size: x-small;color: #ff0000;"> Are there other similar things occuring with the other fighters?</span></p></blockquote>I meant to ask this question as well.

[Soefje]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aerilik I really hope you aren't just getting my hopes up once again to be let down.  Of course SKs are going to see improvements, but so is every other class with new AAs coming out.  What we want is our improvements to bring us much more in-line with what the other plate fighters, specifically how awesome Guards are, atm.  So that when the dust settles and everybody is max AAs...you can look across the plate tanks and say wow they all rock.</blockquote>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough?  That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</blockquote>OK, now you made me want to buy the expansion pack and move back to EQ2.  This is just awesome.If you tell me the block/taunt/damage works with 2 handers, then I may have to cancel my other game account.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Uggli]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aerilik I really hope you aren't just getting my hopes up once again to be let down.  Of course SKs are going to see improvements, but so is every other class with new AAs coming out.  What we want is our improvements to bring us much more in-line with what the other plate fighters, specifically how awesome Guards are, atm.  So that when the dust settles and everybody is max AAs...you can look across the plate tanks and say wow they all rock.</blockquote>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough?  That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</blockquote>Yay!  I'm trying not to get my hopes up too much, but I think that's the best news I've ever seen for the SK class.  I've recently reactivated to prep some AA's for the expansion, I'm glad that my efforts will not be in vain and tank balance will be a bit closer to reality.

[Drodin]

There is an old saying that I think goes "With great buffage comes great nerfability"So I just hope the rest of the world could accept an SK being on par with a guardian...or that the powers that be let it stay that way after these adjustments roll in.  Because this is sounding pretty awesome so far.

[Aeralik]

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aerilik I really hope you aren't just getting my hopes up once again to be let down.  Of course SKs are going to see improvements, but so is every other class with new AAs coming out.  What we want is our improvements to bring us much more in-line with what the other plate fighters, specifically how awesome Guards are, atm.  So that when the dust settles and everybody is max AAs...you can look across the plate tanks and say wow they all rock.</blockquote>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough?  That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</blockquote><p>SKs are overdue and I hope it all works out. I have an SK alt that I like to play. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I have to imagine that this has to be part of some larger initiative to balance some things out for fighters.<span style="font-size: x-small;color: #ff0000;"> Are there other similar things occuring with the other fighters?</span></p></blockquote>I meant to ask this question as well.</blockquote>Yes I am working on berserkers right now as well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

Don't mess with paladins unless you give us a temp mit buff or something <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Lord Hackenslash]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aerilik I really hope you aren't just getting my hopes up once again to be let down.  Of course SKs are going to see improvements, but so is every other class with new AAs coming out.  What we want is our improvements to bring us much more in-line with what the other plate fighters, specifically how awesome Guards are, atm.  So that when the dust settles and everybody is max AAs...you can look across the plate tanks and say wow they all rock.</blockquote>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough?  That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</blockquote>This is encouraging news, thank you for taking the time to address the Shadowknight and Berzerker Communities.

[DMIstar]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aerilik I really hope you aren't just getting my hopes up once again to be let down.  Of course SKs are going to see improvements, but so is every other class with new AAs coming out.  What we want is our improvements to bring us much more in-line with what the other plate fighters, specifically how awesome Guards are, atm.  So that when the dust settles and everybody is max AAs...you can look across the plate tanks and say wow they all rock.</blockquote>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough?  That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</blockquote><p>Wow, Sounds very interesting.. Will defenatly App over to beta tommorrow, and if get in have alot of testing to do on this. </p><p>So far from what it looks like, it sounds good. Esp The rework on the pet and HT and Esp Reaver. </p>

[Crabshack]

<p>Don't listen to the paladin above.</p><p>According to a beta tester talking about changes, without going into any actual information he refered to the expansion changes as making SKs into a guardpalimonk.  That is all well and good, but absolutely make sure you keep them in line with paladins.  IE tune both crusader classes at once.  While you are at it, fix our int line 2nd ability "legionares smite" into something more useful, and for the love of god fix the wisdom line (especially "combat leadership&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p><p>Bringing our Divine Aura to be more in line with guardians would be nice.  Either reduce recast or remove the 50% dmg penalty on it, preferably both.  </p><p>Keep in mind paladins would be considered the more defensive of the 2 crusader classes, with shadowknights being the higher dps crusader.  So I think we can all agree moving shadowknights ahead of paladin dps and defense would be a mistake.  </p><p>With all this being said, can you give us any idea of changes coming for paladins and what eta the changes for both crusaders would be?</p>

[Masoma]

<span class="postbody"><cite><span style="font-size: x-small;">Aeralik wrote:</span></cite></span><div align="left"><span class="postbody"><cite></cite></span><span class="postbody"><cite></cite></span><span class="postbody"><cite><span style="font-size: x-small;"><b><span style="font-size: small;font-family: times new roman,times;">OH great news!!  Can't wait to check out the changes.  Thank you for the heads-up, Aeralik!</span></b></span></cite></span><span class="postbody"><cite></cite></span><span class="postbody"><cite><span style="font-size: x-small;"><b><span style="font-size: small;font-family: times new roman,times;">(wipes drool from chin)</span></b></span></cite></span><span class="postbody"><cite></cite></span><span class="postbody"><cite><span style="font-size: x-small;"><b><span style="font-size: small;font-family: times new roman,times;">Woeman</span></b></span></cite></span><span class="postbody"><cite></cite></span><span class="postbody"><cite><span style="font-size: x-small;"><b><span style="font-size: small;font-family: times new roman,times;">SK 80</span></b></span></cite></span><span class="postbody"><cite><span style="font-size: x-small;"><b><span style="font-size: small;font-family: times new roman,times;">Everfrost (raider by the skin of his teeth)</span></b></span></cite></span><span class="postbody"><cite></cite></span></div>

[Aull]

<cite>PeterDowney wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Don't listen to the paladin above.</p><p>According to a beta tester talking about changes, without going into any actual information he refered to the expansion changes as making SKs into a guardpalimonk.  That is all well and good, but absolutely make sure you keep them in line with paladins.  IE tune both crusader classes at once.  While you are at it, fix our int line 2nd ability "legionares smite" into something more useful, and for the love of god fix the wisdom line (especially "combat leadership"<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p><p>Bringing our Divine Aura to be more in line with guardians would be nice.  Either reduce recast or remove the 50% dmg penalty on it, preferably both.  </p><p><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">Keep in mind paladins would be considered the more defensive of the 2 crusader classes, with shadowknights being the higher dps crusader.  So I think we can all agree moving shadowknights ahead of paladin dps and defense would be a mistake.  </span></p><p>With all this being said, can you give us any idea of changes coming for paladins and what eta the changes for both crusaders would be?</p></blockquote><p>I feel this is a very accurate statement. No sk should be able to have good/great defensive tanking abilities, nice group support, and have great dps to top it off while the paladin has only good/great defensive tanking, nice group support, and no dps. This should be for all fighters and not just crusaders.</p><p>There needs to be distinguishing factors. I feel that of the two crusaders, the two warriors, and the two brawlers one of them should be known for having better tanking/defensive abilities as their distinguishing trait, while the other is know for having better offensive capabilities. </p>

[Pitt Hammerfi]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough?  That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</blockquote><p>That's great news, and about time. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Nero]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aerilik I really hope you aren't just getting my hopes up once again to be let down.  Of course SKs are going to see improvements, but so is every other class with new AAs coming out.  What we want is our improvements to bring us much more in-line with what the other plate fighters, specifically how awesome Guards are, atm.  So that when the dust settles and everybody is max AAs...you can look across the plate tanks and say wow they all rock.</blockquote>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough?  That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</blockquote><p>I'm glad to hear this comment.</p><p>But, at the same time, I'm afraid that other fighters will be "jealous" of SK and say "Nerf SK!", if SK is improved like Aeralik said.</p><p>SK have been nerfed Bloodletter.So, I'm afraid.</p>

[Aeralik]

<cite>Sketchey@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is an old saying that I think goes "With great buffage comes great nerfability"So I just hope the rest of the world could accept an SK being on par with a guardian...or that the powers that be let it stay that way after these adjustments roll in.  Because this is sounding pretty awesome so far.</blockquote>Guardian will still be the better defensive tank after the changes its just that the others should be a lot closer than before.  Sk and Berserkers are the ones who are more aoe oriented though and should be similar in nature once the changes are all done.

[Aull]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sketchey@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is an old saying that I think goes "With great buffage comes great nerfability"So I just hope the rest of the world could accept an SK being on par with a guardian...or that the powers that be let it stay that way after these adjustments roll in.  Because this is sounding pretty awesome so far.</blockquote>Guardian will still be the better defensive tank after the changes its just that the others should be a lot closer than before.  Sk and Berserkers are the ones who are more aoe oriented though and should be similar in nature once the changes are all done.</blockquote><p>Thank you Aeralik again for responding. This is great info. I do feel that guards should be what you have mentioned here the "better defensive tank". This makes a/some distinguishing factors amongst the fighters which I feel is needed.</p><p>I know this isn't the forum to ask but what about the bruiser class? Will the bruiser class have any eye appeal for grouping and especially raiding? I know you are bombarded with questions I am sure but I would like to know since I do play a zerker, sk, and bruiser as my choice of classes to play.</p><p>Thanks again for you time!</p>

[Crabshack]

<p>Again though, what type of eta should we expect for these changes? Should both crusader classes be expecting these changes?</p>

[Pitt Hammerfi]

<cite>PeterDowney wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Should both crusader classes be expecting these changes?</p></blockquote>you're joking right ?

[Mallfoy]

<blockquote><p><cite><cite>Aeralik</cite> wrote:</cite></p><p><cite></cite>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough?  <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</span></b></p></blockquote><p>Well I'm happy to hear they are addressing some core issues of the SK and not just using the ToS AAs as the fix. I know this was a concern to numerous SKs, so if class adjustment pans out..... finally Thank You SoE. </p><p>Lastly, thanks Aeralik for taking some time to post on our forums. I think this is the first time in a year/s we've had any kind of positive feedback on this forum <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Nazani]

But.. What about tank's secondary role in raids? Well, all tanks will tank better, but I suppose that PUR or Min/Max guilds will still use only 2, or 3 depending of the raid mob script. We will have a non MT OT role in ToS, or diserable raid wide AAs? ...I hate the typical RL reply: "Sorry we have tank"

[Soryu]

Really greats news !

[Vaelaen]

<cite>Nazanian wrote:</cite><blockquote>But.. What about tank's secondary role in raids?Well, all tanks will tank better, but I suppose that PUR or Min/Max guilds will still use only 2, or 3 depending of the raid mob script.We will have a non MT OT role in ToS, or diserable raid wide AAs?...I hate the typical RL reply: "Sorry we have tank"</blockquote><p>just what i was thinking... if raids stay the way they are (Mt and OT), what role will other fighters have in a raid that will get them selected over other classes? will there be raid material that would allow an sk or zerker to be a better choice for tanking then one of the other fighter classes? what about bruisers and monks?</p><p>btw, i appretiate you replying to the thread, <cite>Aeralik</cite>.</p>

[Kaarim]

I just have one thing to say....CK RULES!!!!!!

[therodge]

<p>well I want to really gratz the sk community this is great news for you all and im happy for you BUT im now a tad bit scared as a paladin, im a tad bit weiry of this only becuase id hate to be left in the dust (though i suppose i can just level my sk the 30 levels he needs and will be peachy so not THAT terrified) but wih some hope it will bring classes closer togeather personally as a paladin i hope to see the following </p><p>tankability</p><p>guardian>>paladin>sk=zerker>>>monk>bruser</p><p>dps</p><p>bruser>monk>>>>zerker=sk>paladin>>guardian</p><p>(the more arrows the bigger the discrepency)</p><p>> discrepency gap fixed by minor gear upgrades</p><p>>> discrepency gap fixed by moderate gear upgrades</p><p>>>> deiscrepency gap fixed by Major gear upgrades</p><p>>>>> discrepency gap cannot be fixed by anything less then major gear discepency and a major skill discrepency</p><p>>>>>> basically the gap between a inquisitor and assasin in dps</p><p>as it sits now its more like</p><p>tank</p><p>Guardian >>paladin>zerker>>sk>>monk>bruser</p><p>dps bruser>monk>zerker=guardian>>(&gt<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />sk>(=)paladin</p><p>so absolute worst case scenario sks do me a favor and run guardians noses in it till i level my sk!</p>

[BChizzle]

<cite>therodge wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>well I want to really gratz the sk community this is great news for you all and im happy for you BUT im now a tad bit scared as a paladin, im a tad bit weiry of this only becuase id hate to be left in the dust (though i suppose i can just level my sk the 30 levels he needs and will be peachy so not THAT terrified) but wih some hope it will bring classes closer togeather personally as a paladin i hope to see the following </p><p>tankability</p><p>guardian>>paladin>sk=zerker>>>monk>bruser</p><p>dps</p><p>bruser>monk>>>>zerker=sk>paladin>>guardian</p><p>(the more arrows the bigger the discrepency)</p><p>> discrepency gap fixed by minor gear upgrades</p><p>>> discrepency gap fixed by moderate gear upgrades</p><p>>>> deiscrepency gap fixed by Major gear upgrades</p><p>>>>> discrepency gap cannot be fixed by anything less then major gear discepency and a major skill discrepency</p><p>>>>>> basically the gap between a inquisitor and assasin in dps</p><p>as it sits now its more like</p><p>tank</p><p>Guardian >>paladin>zerker>>sk>>monk>bruser</p><p>dps bruser>monk>zerker=guardian>>(><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />sk>(=)paladin</p><p>so absolute worst case scenario sks do me a favor and run guardians noses in it till i level my sk!</p></blockquote>Wow this is completely untrue for the most part when it comes to dps.  It is more like this bruiser=monk=zerker=sk>guard>paliSo for one (And I don't play one), maybe a little boost for pali's on the dps side, guards really are pretty good where they are at, brawlers need to separate themselves from the pack a bit from a dps standpoint, zerks sk's in the middle.

[Skwor]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aerilik I really hope you aren't just getting my hopes up once again to be let down.  Of course SKs are going to see improvements, but so is every other class with new AAs coming out.  What we want is our improvements to bring us much more in-line with what the other plate fighters, specifically how awesome Guards are, atm.  So that when the dust settles and everybody is max AAs...you can look across the plate tanks and say wow they all rock.</blockquote>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough?  That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</blockquote><p>SO this means yet another class will be made tier 1 DPS and mages will continue to move further down the ladder? I guess the plan is to swap out mages for sk's for the newest least loved class? </p><p>Gaurdians are already WAY overpowered and this reads like SK's will be broguht up to gaurdians and gaurdians will be even more powerful in the next expansion. I think DPS increases for tank classes has gotten a bit out of hand. Could we please rework hate instead of just making TANK classes the new DPS masters?</p>

[Tiberuis]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aerilik I really hope you aren't just getting my hopes up once again to be let down.  Of course SKs are going to see improvements, but so is every other class with new AAs coming out.  What we want is our improvements to bring us much more in-line with what the other plate fighters, specifically how awesome Guards are, atm.  So that when the dust settles and everybody is max AAs...you can look across the plate tanks and say wow they all rock.</blockquote>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough?  That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</blockquote><p>Move over Rallos Zek.  Make way Soulsek Ro.  There is a new Norrathian God of the Shadowknights...Aeralik Kozak of Shadow RoZek!</p><p>I am plotting our Revenge on all of Norrath...no longer shall we be 24 of 24, the laughing stock of Norrathian Raiders everywhere...we shall be ONE WITH THE PLATE TANKS, annexing MT/OT Slots and Parse Positions EVERYWHERE!  Muwahahahaha!</p><p>Thanks for posting in our community forums big guy.  It's been years since we have had such a positive post.  Looking forward to that x-pac big time.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Mogzilla]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow this is completely untrue for the most part when it comes to dps.  It is more like this bruiser=monk=zerker=sk>guard>paliSo for one (And I don't play one), maybe a little boost for pali's on the dps side, guards really are pretty good where they are at, brawlers need to separate themselves from the pack a bit from a dps standpoint, zerks sk's in the middle.</blockquote><p>Sk's do not dps like brawlers.</p><p>But zerkers do, zerkers dps is almost at brawler level and not enough to really notice the difference between the 3 classes.</p><p>Really there is little to no difference in dps between monks , bruisers, and zerkers.</p><p>But there is a vast difference in surviablity.</p><p>Zerker own brawlers and monks own bruisers.</p><p>Bruisers are the only fighter class that has no "oh crap " defensive ability like divine aura, tsuanmi, adrenline or tower of stone.</p><p>I hope the devs are looking into bruisers atm because our I would rate our raid desirablitiy below SK's atm.</p><p>At least Sk's can tank on raids, bruisers go splat, do less dps then real dps classes, and have no meaningful buffs or debuffs.  In short bruiser have zero raid role and devs still have not commented on what their raid role is. Like they have Sk's and zerkers.</p>

[BChizzle]

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow this is completely untrue for the most part when it comes to dps.  It is more like this bruiser=monk=zerker=sk>guard>paliSo for one (And I don't play one), maybe a little boost for pali's on the dps side, guards really are pretty good where they are at, brawlers need to separate themselves from the pack a bit from a dps standpoint, zerks sk's in the middle.</blockquote><p>Sk's do not dps like brawlers.</p><p>But zerkers do, zerkers dps is almost at brawler level and not enough to really notice the difference between the 3 classes.</p><p>Really there is little to no difference in dps between monks , bruisers, and zerkers.</p><p>But there is a vast difference in surviablity.</p><p>Zerker own brawlers and monks own bruisers.</p><p>Bruisers are the only fighter class that has no "oh crap " defensive ability like divine aura, tsuanmi, adrenline or tower of stone.</p><p>I hope the devs are looking into bruisers atm because our I would rate our raid desirablitiy below SK's atm.</p><p>At least Sk's can tank on raids, bruisers go splat, do less dps then real dps classes, and have no meaningful buffs or debuffs.  In short bruiser have zero raid role and devs still have not commented on what their raid role is. Like they have Sk's and zerkers.</p></blockquote>Sorry what?  Bruisers have a tsunami and huge heal with their mythicals, 10% dmg reduction, close mind, etc.  You should try playing the class first before commenting.

[MirageKnight]

I think some still don't see the problem despite current status of SK tankability.<u>If balancing tanking, you can't make THE BEST, 2nd then 3rd so on : Ranking.</u>If ranking likeohhh guardian should survive any situation the best and then next is paladin so on, then nothing changes from where SK currently is.<u>Who need the 4th best tank while things are easier with the best tankability class?</u>Funny thing is some people saying about off tanking role, but if MTable class has ability to do the off tanking as well then who need so called off tank class?Unless developer create and give specific off tanking utility, there isn't any off tanking class as role at all.(and needless to say, SK doesn't have off tanking utility like short reuse snap aggro utility, high hate from start taunt (lol, developer gave totally opposite line, utility to allow to survive with less healer (as non MT grp) so on)Heck, SK's mythical epic weapon even doesn't support at all as not having 19% dmg reduction like paladin nor clicky isn't effective as what other class already can be used as normal spell with shorter reuse timer.Things should make difference are while tankability among tank class are about same... BUT different utility to support own tanking by class, different strength/weakeness depends on encounter/situation, different utility to provide to raid force.

[Mogzilla]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry what?  Bruisers have a tsunami and huge heal with their mythicals, 10% dmg reduction, close mind, etc.  You should try playing the class first before commenting.</blockquote><p>Um my main is a 80/140 bruiser.</p><p>And 98% of the bruiser population at 80 does not have their mythical.</p><p>In fact my server only has 2 non alt bruisers who have their mythicals that were not bought.</p><p>Just because we have one of the better fighter mythicals does not mean the class is balanced for the majority of players.</p><p>You can not balance classes with gear, especially gear that is out of reach for 95% of the player base. Also the fact that tiers 1-3 have very little brawler gear in them does not help.</p><p>I am glad Sk's are getting an upgrade, they need it.</p><p>But bruisers are just as undesirable in the raid game as SK's are, most guilds only want 1 brawler on a raid, and monks completely own us in raid utililty.</p><p>Monks get peel, tsuanmi, and the best raid wide buff in game.  Bruisers get drag, a situationally useful ability that is not really necessary for any of the games current raid  content. </p>

[Aeralik]

Lets keep this thread on topic about shadowknights please.  If you have concerns about fighter balance in regards to a particular class please post it in the appropriate forum. 

[Mogzilla]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lets keep this thread on topic about shadowknights please.  If you have concerns about fighter balance in regards to a particular class please post it in the appropriate forum.  </blockquote><p>I have, and to my knowledge no developer has ever posted in the bruiser forum like they have in the SK and zerker forums about the upcoming expanion or our role on raids.</p><p>Just saying.</p><p>I got a SK alt, reason I was interested in this thread.</p><p>I saw his post that said SK dps = brawler = zerker dps and informed him that is simply not true.</p><p>Sk dps is behind all the tanks except paladins from my experiance.</p>

[MirageKnight]

<cite>MirageKnight wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think some still don't see the problem despite current status of SK tankability.<u>If balancing tanking, you can't make THE BEST, 2nd then 3rd so on : Ranking.</u>If ranking likeohhh guardian should survive any situation the best and then next is paladin so on, then nothing changes from where SK currently is.<u>Who need the 4th best tank while things are easier with the best tankability class?</u>Funny thing is some people saying about off tanking role, but if MTable class has ability to do the off tanking as well then who need so called off tank class?Unless developer create and give specific off tanking utility, there isn't any off tanking class as role at all.(and needless to say, SK doesn't have off tanking utility like short reuse snap aggro utility, high hate from start taunt (lol, developer gave totally opposite line, utility to allow to survive with less healer (as non MT grp) so on)Heck, SK's mythical epic weapon even doesn't support at all as not having 19% dmg reduction like paladin nor clicky isn't effective as what other class already can be used as normal spell with shorter reuse timer.Things should make difference are while tankability among tank class are about same... BUT different utility to support own tanking by class, different strength/weakeness depends on encounter/situation, different utility to provide to raid force.</blockquote>Forgot to add regarding off tanking:Beside what I have stated, who got so called "off tanking" utility type spells/ca currently?Those best and 2nd best tankability classes LOLIf balancing like OT and MT role then well this already failed as giving the best surviving tank with utility to off tank as well.If balancing like this, then well SK/zeker should have better survility over guardian/paladin for less thing to offer beside MTing.So again, if balancing then all plate tank (at least for now, excluding brawlers) should be able to tank raid encounter equally (as dev seems failed on creating encounter which tank class has upper hand beside resist (which can be solved easily by current itemization and WIS problem)) with different utility and something plus to offer, like some class already have "off tanking" utility to offer.

[BChizzle]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lets keep this thread on topic about shadowknights please.  If you have concerns about fighter balance in regards to a particular class please post it in the appropriate forum.  </blockquote>Hey you posted here about changes to all tanks which started this whole thing.

[Giral]

<p>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough? That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</p><p>ok first i think these are things that Sk's have been asking for : </p><p>Dumbfire pet change = Check </p><p>harm touch to do more damage/more agro = Check </p><p>need more aviodance and agro control = psuedo block +tuant and damage / and more over all dps for agro = check </p><p>more dps vs single and 2 and 3 mobs = across the board dmge increase / damage bonus on reaver = check </p><p>on multiple mobs (4,5,6,7,<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> sk's can do realy well on(if your in DPS gear)  its just the lack of encounters that have multiple mobs that hurt us in that regard in ROK. </p><p>.... </p><p>so this is a start, as said they cant fix all the issue's with Sk class with just the AA's or gear or multiple mobs alone, we needed some tweaks to our base abilities , and Class and Sub-Class Aa's also </p><p>.... </p><p>the best news is that our class isn't being changed at all, we are see'ing """Improvements to the class that we need and not complete changes and That  was my biggest concern""" , that i would log into the Expansion and my SK would be a complete diffrent class or a carbon copy of all other tanks,,, i love my Shadowknight the way it is, its Underpowered , it needs better gear and spell quality to compete with less geared less skilled tanks of other classes. </p><p>.... </p><p>to others posting in the forum about a Dev posting in here,,,,, please note that we have not had a developer say anything in the SK forums since the change to DEATHMARCH back in KOS ,,, and that was a " Glad you like it " and that was IT.  so please dont make it sound like SK's get developer attantion on these forums, becuase that is completely untrue,,,,,,sk's have had major issue's in rok and it's known gamewide , and we have waited a long time for these needed tweaks ( Much longer then just ROK, we have always needed better gear,more stats,spell quality, etc etc to compete and why there are so few Well played SK's in Norath ) , </p><p>and i am sure all the tanks are getting some tweaks and balance, other posts aerlick has said they know gaurdians are way ahead, etc etc,, and another post said : we will change class/subclass AA's on a case by case basis if we have to  :  and all tanks are getting new AA's ,,,, so all in all its a good chance for all the Tanks to get some love. and hopefully some better balance </p><p>....</p><p>lastly about Raids and MT and OT ,,,,,, its how raids are designed that should give reason for using ALL the tanks, if we all can Tank about the same but with diffrent methods, then the raids need to be designed around our diffrent methods and other various factors of why to use a SK to MT this encounter and not a Guardian, or why to have a Paladin OT this encounter and not an SK < there are numerous ways and methods they could achieve this,  the way it is now you can just circumvent anything and use a guardian MT and a guardian OT for 99 % of the raid content becuase they have the best of everything, my Disease resistants means nothing when a guard can just switch 2 items and be raid buffed and have equal or greater disease resist then i do(just one example of something that could be changed to make SK needed to tank an encounter if it was done / balanced correctly ) ...and im not talking about encounters that just Ignore certain types of tanks (thats fine in an encounter or 3 ,, but not for everyone thats just forced and then you just zone in that class for that one encounter , im talking abuot numerous reasons in zones for every tank to have a reason to be in the entire raid or atleast most raids ,,,and yeah that means leave guardians out of a raid here and there /chuckle) </p><p>i am sure guardians will still tank 50 % of trash, and 70 % of the names, but if done correctly all the other tanks would have areas in the raids they are needed to tank, or assist the tank  or the raid, etc etc ,, </p>

[Kaarim]

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough? That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</p><p>ok first i think these are things that Sk's have been asking for </p><p>Dumbfire pet change = Check </p><p>harm touch to do more damage/more agro = Check </p><p>need more aviodance and agro control = psuedo block +tuant and damage</p><p>more dps vs single and 2 and 3 mobs = across the board dmge increase / damage bonus on reaver = check </p></blockquote>You're right Giralus. Basically confirmed what has been in high demand, yet I still see some of the same shadowknights pouring out negativity. You can't have the moon and the stars. Shadowknights ya k they struggled but were not dead in this expansion was just a lot harder than usual but not impossible. Now the improvements asked have been implemented in some way not even...EVEN coinsdering what AA setups are gonna be I can bet there will be defensive AA's for sure...SK's will be more noticeable. What more do these SK's want? lol  The developer has been reading each class forum I bet and hearing the needs and over the past year or so I bet they started to analyze the classes better. I think this expansion will be the best expansion for every class.I think for most of the shadowknights out there are gonna be happier with the class. Those that just don't understand are just gonna complain more. I am really excited about what's to come for our class, already signed up for a beta spot. CK Rules!!

[Vaelaen]

<p>I don't think this will be an over-correction by any means. when it comes to raiding, at this point in time, sk's just arent considered for any role. even with the changes, guards will still be the MT and OT because of how established they are (gear and such).</p><p>it's a hard thing to balance soloing, grouping and raiding. as it stands now sk's are great soloers, good group tanks and low man on the totem pole when it comes to raids. the end game consists of mainly raiding, so many sk's have dropped off or switched to other classes to get into raids. building us up to be viable in raids will throw the solo and group power out of balance, but what can you do?</p><p>so the big question from me is... if guards are still going to be the defensive tank (ie. MT and OT in raids), what role will sk's play in raids that will make them desireable?</p><p>I know you feel like you have opened up a can of worms here, Aeralik....but as an eq2 community, we are starving for info.</p>

[Giral]

<p>Vaelean said : </p><p>it's a hard thing to balance soloing, grouping and raiding. as it stands now sk's are great soloers, good group tanks and low man on the totem pole when it comes to raids. the end game consists of mainly raiding, so many sk's have dropped off or switched to other classes to get into raids. building us up to be viable in raids will throw the solo and group power out of balance, but what can you do?</p><p>........</p><p>Many classes in the game are much better soloers then Sk's , and almost all of them wanted/needed for groups, and wanted needed for raids . </p><p>Sk in rok is a OK soloer, befor ROk i would say in Kos and EOF Sk's were in 8 th to 10 th place in the solo realm , but not in the top 5. and the other top 8 thru 10 were all wanted for groups and raids . </p><p>.....</p><p>easy to balance, it does not make a differance to raids or groups if SK's can solo well or not, you balance Sk's for Tanking/agro/Dps/utility vs the other tanks, if they happen to solo better or worse then the others becuase of it then let people whine/cry or roll an SK themselves. .....many other classes solo better,get groups easier,and can have mulitples of them in a raid .... </p><p>the arguement that Sk's solo well and that is why they arent great for grouping or raiding is from players not developers. </p><p>as has been stated by the Dev's ....Shadowknights are TANKS...and thats the bottomline. </p><p>.....</p><p>until other classes are balanced on there solo ability this arguement fails, you cant just balance one or 2 classes on there soloability . and have numerous others excel in all 3 area's . </p><p>.... </p><p>Guardians will still be the most defensive tank,,,, there are many other facets to batte then just Defense, and multiple ways to make Just Def not be so important in alot of encounters , just like they can make DPS not be so important, or Negate a tanks Agro tools , etc etc ,,, so many directions they can take with it , and hopefully they will take Multiple ways,  so that we dont wind up in this situation a year down the road where now X utility is the deciding factor for tanks,  there needs to be multiple situations that cater to specifics about each tank class that other tanks(and the raid over all)  cant make up the differances with buffs/gear. </p><p>....</p>

[betatester7]

sounds great, but one more last thing....how long? 3 years? or 5 years to get this?i can wait

[Pitt Hammerfi]

First change i would make is to change the wis line "heal crit" to something defensive for both classes + parry maybe  or +riposte. Up to 4 riposte if you put 8 points in

[Pitt Hammerfi]

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Vaelean said : </p><p>as it stands now sk's are great soloers</p></blockquote><p>Umm no were not, we can barely run around Karnors, while other classes do it with ease.</p><p>Our lifetaps do jack squat compared to mob dmg in RoK</p>

[Mogzilla]

<cite>Pitt Hammerfist wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Vaelean said : </p><p>as it stands now sk's are great soloers</p></blockquote><p>Umm no were not, we can barely run around Karnors, while other classes do it with ease.</p><p>Our lifetaps do jack squat compared to mob dmg in RoK</p></blockquote><p>Yeah all melee soloing got [Removed for Content] in RoK.</p><p>When I was level up my bruiser green ^^^ named were no problem with a mix of MC and treasured gear.</p><p>Now I have got bascially all 77+ leg a few fabled , ad3 and masters and up and cant hardly solo a single KC  named on my bruiser.</p><p>IF you cant root in RoK you cant really solo ^^^.</p>

[Vaelaen]

<p>you guys pretty much repeated what i was trying to get across, but you got hung up on the great soloability comment. sk's are great soloers, not the best, not the second best, but good enough for it to be considered a positive attribute. i also consider my soloability to be greater then my group ability which is greater then my raid ability. </p><p>"building us up to be viable in raids will throw the solo and group power out of balance, but what can you do?" i said this to say that when balancing us, which i know isnt an easy task, make us viable in raids regardless of how it affects solo or group abilities. </p><p>sorry for the confusion.</p>

[Phank]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough?  That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</blockquote>If this is all true, then <span class="Apple-style-span">THANK YOU</span> and<span class="Apple-style-span"> IT'S ABOUT TIME</span>!<p>These are all the bullet-points that we have been talking about for some time. I sure hope the HT improvement actually brings a class defining skill back to our repertoire. The only thing I don't see here is that much need Raid utility that will have guilds thinking, "What about adding a full time Shadowknight?"</p><p>Hopefully the increase in DPS and defensiveness will be good enough.</p><p>I'm what one might consider a Shadowknight for life.  From EQ ('99) through RoK, no alts, a few sabbaticals to try out other MMOs always to return to my SK here... I can say I am genuinely excited about how TSO might change the perception of our class.</p><p>/bow</p>

[Phelon_Skellhound]

<p> I am so excited to see the overhaul we seem to be getting.... We have been asking for slivers of table scraps and fighting for whatever fell on the floor for sometime... Now we are getting the apetizer, the main course and dessert to boot!!! Thank you, thank you thank you and need I say it again? Thank you <b><i>Aeralik</i></b> for telling us this much on whats to come.</p>

[Arech Sallazar]

<p>very interested as to the changes and specifically that SK and serks are going to be the AOE encounter tanks</p><p>I imagine you have your ideas under control aerlik but its going to be difficult to top a Paladin with Amends on a warlock/wizard for agro control - and with their block and damage reduction bonus over shadowknights im very interested to see how you are going to top that for shadowknights</p><p>Hopefully as well this means some aoe encounters (lots of them) in Shadow oddesy because this part of the game was completely lacking in RoK (shame for any aoe class)</p>

[Pitt Hammerfi]

<p>i would like to see how we are going to compete with amends and a warlock too for AE aggro.</p>

[Roguejm11]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aerilik I really hope you aren't just getting my hopes up once again to be let down.  Of course SKs are going to see improvements, but so is every other class with new AAs coming out.  What we want is our improvements to bring us much more in-line with what the other plate fighters, specifically how awesome Guards are, atm.  So that when the dust settles and everybody is max AAs...you can look across the plate tanks and say wow they all rock.</blockquote>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough?  That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</blockquote><p>Aeralik -</p><p>Thank you for posting what little information you are allowed to.  It is nice to see a game developer letting us know some of the basic changes happening to our class.  Just as everyone, I am very much looking forward to the expansion and the changes instore for the class I play.  </p><p>As we all know the NDA is still in effect so nothing specific can be given to us.  When can we expect the NDA to be lifted?  Or for that matter, how can I get on the test servers and see what changes are coming for my class?</p><p> Vinladia</p><p>80 Shadowknight</p><p>Kithicor Server</p>

[Soul_Dreamer]

<p>Good changes, SK's have needed some love for along time, thanks SOE..As for Pally amends.....I have and always will see it as one of the most OP spells in the game and have been waiting for it to be nerfed to 15% or so since LU13. How any class can take 41% perma of another chars hate and add it to themselves with their sister class getting nothing even remotely similar has always seemed like a very cruel joke.THEN to top it off the same class gets an ability to temporarily take 15% (I think) of EVERY group members hate? SK's got a group hate siphon through AA choices, but it was so pitifully small it makes no difference, honestly in my opinion SK's should be the king of hate siphoning and agro generation, with Zerks able to do it through DPS and their berserk proc.SK aa that siphons hate needs to be upped to 7% per group member (7 x5 = 35) so they have something to equal a pally and deathmarch really needs some buffing and/or a new T8 version, it's a +increase to DPS etc and while % based skills get no increases this defo deserves it, simply because it's not a % increase.Do the defensive increases SK's are getting = the increase Pallies can get to shield protection values with their AA abilities? If not they need to.Finally, a small add on to the SK Mythical needs to be put in place, +Ripose/Block/Shield effectiveness OR an ability that reduces damage similar to the Pally 10% of damage is converted to heals, SK's are the only class with ZERO/NONE/BUGGER ALL permanent defensive stats on their mythical weapon.All those people who say SK's can't have everything? Why the hell not.Amends was there to allow a Palladin to hold agro with their very low DPS, with AA's they no longer had low DPS, it was up there with SK's and what did SK's get? Along with Amends, High DPS came the new EoF aa's which Gave pallies more avoidance and HP to take them even further above SK's.Guardians had low DPS but very high survivability and ways to protect their group originally. With AA's they got DPS to equal and go above Zerks. Zerks get what to make up for it? Adrenaline, and only in the last expansion and at the expense of alot of their power. It's time to bring SK's and Zerks inline, raids and groups choosing tanks by skill rather than class needs to happen and soon. Those who complain are doing so mostly because they're worried the spot they have may be lost by players who are better than them because their class is no long the definitive class for that role IMO.-Lurtz, Guardian MT.</p>

[Kaarim]

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Those who complain are doing so mostly because they're worried the spot they have may be lost by players who are better than them because their class is no long the definitive class for that role IMO.-Lurtz, Guardian MT.</p></blockquote>hahaha gotta love how the other tanks are starting to become a lil fearful of the class before the expansion is even released or how the AA lines are even set up lol. I guess things are turning around? Shadowknights are suppose to inflict fear and terror into others hm? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> SKs RULE!

[Naithachal]

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Good changes, SK's have needed some love for along time, thanks SOE..As for Pally amends.....I have and always will see it as one of the most OP spells in the game and have been waiting for it to be nerfed to 15% or so since LU13. How any class can take 41% perma of another chars hate and add it to themselves with their sister class getting nothing even remotely similar has always seemed like a very cruel joke.THEN to top it off the same class gets an ability to temporarily take 15% (I think) of EVERY group members hate? SK's got a group hate siphon through AA choices, but it was so pitifully small it makes no difference, honestly in my opinion SK's should be the king of hate siphoning and agro generation, with Zerks able to do it through DPS and their berserk proc.SK aa that siphons hate needs to be upped to 7% per group member (7 x5 = 35) so they have something to equal a pally and deathmarch really needs some buffing and/or a new T8 version, it's a +increase to DPS etc and while % based skills get no increases this defo deserves it, simply because it's not a % increase.Do the defensive increases SK's are getting = the increase Pallies can get to shield protection values with their AA abilities? If not they need to.Finally, a small add on to the SK Mythical needs to be put in place, +Ripose/Block/Shield effectiveness OR an ability that reduces damage similar to the Pally 10% of damage is converted to heals, SK's are the only class with ZERO/NONE/BUGGER ALL permanent defensive stats on their mythical weapon.All those people who say SK's can't have everything? Why the hell not.Amends was there to allow a Palladin to hold agro with their very low DPS, with AA's they no longer had low DPS, it was up there with SK's and what did SK's get? Along with Amends, High DPS came the new EoF aa's which Gave pallies more avoidance and HP to take them even further above SK's.Guardians had low DPS but very high survivability and ways to protect their group originally. With AA's they got DPS to equal and go above Zerks. Zerks get what to make up for it? Adrenaline, and only in the last expansion and at the expense of alot of their power. It's time to bring SK's and Zerks inline, raids and groups choosing tanks by skill rather than class needs to happen and soon. Those who complain are doing so mostly because they're worried the spot they have may be lost by players who are better than them because their class is no long the definitive class for that role IMO.-Lurtz, Guardian MT.</p></blockquote><p>100% agree!</p><p>What's wrong if we SK's get some love and eventually catch up with the rest of Plate Tanks? No one knews what it looks like in the end when all Plate Tanks geht their new AA abilitys. Maby all the Plate-Tanks are colser together wich would be a good thing. But even if we SK's would be supirior, wich i really doubt <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, why not? We had the shaft for so long and those of us who didn't abandon had to work hard and often left out. So whats wrong if now is our time?</p>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<p>So I'm curious, how are you guys planning to test out this massive class overhaul to see if you got your wishes granted?  How will we know?</p>

[Jeffmaster]

Beta has or will start soon

[kxizm]

I dont play a shadowknight, but im glad you guys are finally getting some love.someone leaked NDA info on 'the other site' if you havent seen it yet. SKs are teh cool now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Loxus]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aerilik I really hope you aren't just getting my hopes up once again to be let down.  Of course SKs are going to see improvements, but so is every other class with new AAs coming out.  What we want is our improvements to bring us much more in-line with what the other plate fighters, specifically how awesome Guards are, atm.  So that when the dust settles and everybody is max AAs...you can look across the plate tanks and say wow they all rock.</blockquote>So is across the board damage increase, rework of the pet spell, damage bonus on reaver, harm touch improvements, a pseudo guardian block + taunt/damage, etc sound good enough?  That is just the base class adjustments and doesnt even include the new aa skills.</blockquote><p>Ok, who are you and what have you done with Aeralik?!  </p><p>Well who ever you are, welcome to the boards and glad to have you.  Lets hope this opening of communication continues!  In order to do that, we need to foster it from BOTH sides.  Aeralik has taken the first step, lets make, and continue to make it a pleasent exp for him so we can hear from him more as I think it's safe to say we do enjoy hearing from him on a regular basis.</p><p>I'm not an SK any longer after I was asked to betray to a pally at 80.  It seemed I was needed on raids, but my class (sk) wasn't so...  With that being said, this is great news for the SK class!  I'm glad that they are getting the love they need, just wish it would have come sooner.  Hehe Cie la vie!</p><p>BTW if pally's get nerfed now that I am one, I'm gonna have to hurt someone! I'll send vile nasty-grams to my congressman!  I won't say "God bless you" to people who sneeze!  I won't wash my hands before eating!  And... and, I'll touch your food before you eat it!</p><p>Fear my Pally-ness!</p><p>Loxus Maul</p><p>80 <strike>SK</strike> Pally of Everfrost</p><p>Putting the Laughter back into Slaughter!</p>

[Ilavatar]

Thanks for the inspiring update!I'd like to mention one other thing that others have also mentioned: more SK-oriented armor, i.e. with INT!I was in Mines of Meldrath the other night and some very sweet armor dropped - if you were a Guardian or a Beserker and needed STR. If you were an SK who needed INT it wasn't very useful. I've heard this problem becomes even more of an issue at higher levels.

[Kaarim]

<cite>Ilavatar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for the inspiring update!I'd like to mention one other thing that others have also mentioned: more SK-oriented armor, i.e. with INT!I was in Mines of Meldrath the other night and some very sweet armor dropped - if you were a Guardian or a Beserker and needed STR. If you were an SK who needed INT it wasn't very useful. I've heard this problem becomes even more of an issue at higher levels. </blockquote>I'm not sure where I read it, if it was something from fanfaire or on the forum boards but I do recall the item developer mentioning something about better itemization for I believe clerics (temp, inq), and for crusaders (shadowknight, paladin.) So I believe they are aware about itemization needs for classes this up coming expansion and I'm sure the shadowknights will be happy with em. If I can find the forum I saw it in I will provide the link.

[Slamida]

<p>Thank you devs, its been a long road and we finally get what we deserve!  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[soibit]

man how awesome would it be to log in after the xpac to find out that our pet was made into what it once was in EQ1? a true pet, controllable. when i saw that comment of improvments to our pet it put a huge smile on my face...  but im trying not to get my hopes up too much (^__^)

[Nero]

I will decide to quit EQ2 or not when TSO launches.It depends on how SK is improved to be par with Guardian as a raiding tank.But reading "other website" about nerf of SK in beta, I have become not to hold hopes about the improvement of SK....I just wish that devs know what SKs need.I can't suffer any more that my SK will be unneeded and unwanted and said "Sorry, we need Guardian or Paladin or Berserker".Does devs really know our pain?

[t0iletduck]

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>I will decide to quit EQ2 or not when TSO launches.It depends on how SK is improved to be par with Guardian as a raiding tank.But reading "other website" about nerf of SK in beta, I have become not to hold hopes about the improvement of SK....I just wish that devs know what SKs need.I can't suffer any more that my SK will be unneeded and unwanted and said "Sorry, we need Guardian or Paladin or Berserker".Does devs really know our pain?</blockquote> Im in the same boat. I came back this month after a 10 month break and quickly grinded to lvl 80. Naturally, I came back to raid as thats what I enjoy most, and the SK is the class I like to play the best. I had switched mains to Mystic late in EoF because my guild needed a Shaman way more than another off tank. (We had a guardian and 2 zerkers with good attendance)So now that I've returned I've spoken to some guilds about joining; they are looking toward Paladins next expansion because supposedly it will be AE heavy. My final judgement will be after TSO as well. If SK's are still not wanted in raids, I will cancel again.

[Vaelaen]

<p>if soe thinks that switching encounters to an aoe style will make sk's wanted as raid tanks, i think us sk's may be in trouble. the new mt will consist of a pally and an amended warlock </p><p>they have to ask what do raids need in a tank?.. </p><p>1) <span style="color: #ff0000;">the ability to avoid/mitigate dmg</span></p><p>2) <span style="color: #ff0000;">the ability to hold agro</span></p><p><span style="color: #000000;">what is going to make the other fighter classes a viable option over a guardian to tank in a raid? it has been stated that guardians will remain the "defensive tank", if this holds true, why would anyone want anything but the "defensive tank" to head up a raid? </span></p><p>the ability to "tank" is based off of how defensive you are... saying that the guardian will remain the defensive tank is just saying that they will be able to out tank the other classes... this sucks when your only contribution to a raid is your ability to tank, and there is one class that is going to be better at it then all other defensive classes.</p><p>that being said, i can't wait to see what changes are in store for my sk in tso. </p>

[Nero]

<p>Do devs really intend to fix class balance of fighters?Reading "other website" about nerf of new AAs, SK seems not to be par with Guardian.Is Guardian special?Can only Guardian MT in raids?Do devs think so?</p><p>All fighters should be able to MT in raids in different ways.For example, enhance SK's lifetap very much and add +1000 hate to every SK's attack(spells and CAs).All fighters' survivability, the ability to keep aggro, and DPS should be same in different ways.</p><p>I was disappointed to hear about nerf of leaked SK's new AA.If devs think that Guardian is special to MT in raids and intend to run over SK, I will quit EQ2."In long terms".I don't want to be avoided the main issue with such words.If devs think that there is inequality in fighters, why did they nerf new AAs?Don't run over SK any more, please.I can stand it no longer.</p><p>Please fix SK.</p>

[Friend]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sketchey@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is an old saying that I think goes "With great buffage comes great nerfability"So I just hope the rest of the world could accept an SK being on par with a guardian...or that the powers that be let it stay that way after these adjustments roll in.  Because this is sounding pretty awesome so far.</blockquote>Guardian will still be the better defensive tank after the changes its just that the others should be a lot closer than before.  Sk and Berserkers are the ones who are more aoe oriented though and should be similar in nature once the changes are all done.</blockquote><p>Aeralik thanks.  This is my first post in playing for 3+ years as an SK.  Apologies for the length.  I hope you will take it as a measure of my appreciation and concern.</p><p>I appreciate the steps being taken but am concerned that they may not go far enough.</p><p>If Guardians remain the better defensive tank wont that leave things the way they are now?  Guardian's will be chosen as Raid Tanks to the near exclusion of other tanks because they are best defensively (even if the difference is smaller).  Classes that do more DPS than SK's will be chosen ahead of SK's for DPS.  To be fair to all tank classes should they not be equally defensive so that the deciding factor can be player skill?  </p><p>It is worth emphasising that serious raiders are very particular about classes.  They will chose the BEST class for the job, NOT the second best.  It is simply not going to give other tank classes a fair chance at serious raiding if the gap between Guardians and the rest is merely smaller than it was before.  </p><p>Skill can make up for some imbalances but skill cannot be demonstrated if you are not "invited to the party".  It is also difficult to argue with an observation that I hear from time to time along the lines of "that was very good tanking by your SK, but, if you tanked with that skill on a Guardian character we would pick your Guardian over your SK every time". </p><p>If all tanks are not equally defensive then the ones which are weaker defensively need some very, very, very significant advantage over the others to be considered as raid tanks given that a tank's main role is to survive the enemy's attacks and hold their attention.  If the other tanks can't survive the attacks as well as Guardians that only leaves holding aggro to make them more preferrable to Guardians.  Guardians already have probably the best aggro control.  Even for group encounter's Guardian aggro control is adequate and they can keep all enemies on them - organised raids simply mez or don't aoe if there is any risk of taking aggro from the tank and causing a wipe.  To make other tanks desirable enough to be chosen for raids ahead of the apparently more defensively endowed Guardian would effectively mean weakening Guardian aggro control to make it unreliable to the point where the other tanks must be used.  I can't imagine that will be done - hence the suggestion that all tanks be made equally good.  This applies to survivability and aggro control.</p><p>Given the extent to which Guardians are now engrained in many players minds as the "tank of choice" there is some merit in actually making a previously underpowered class such as the SK, more powerful than the other tanks at least for a short while to try and change that mindset. Arguably if the classes are merely made equal serious raiders will simply say "why change tank - you dont give the raid anything better than what we have already, plus our current tank knows our raidforce" and thats if they even appreciate that the tank classes have been made equally good.  I note that on some forums such as eq2flames (its got a name so I use it) Guardians who are in the beta are themselves observing that the new improved SKs, though much better than they were, only have abilities that are weaker imitations of Guardian abilities.</p><p>Brief examples of current lack of power of SKs: - to have very good dps Guardians and Zerkers can simply use the buckler DA AA and auto attack while to dps well SK's have to run an unsually awkward and largely guess based combination of auto-attacking and timing spells/ca's and even then the SK's dps will be lower than a warriors unless the SK has all the dps buffs and/or better equipment; equipment is another issue although I know this has started to get looked at, SKS have historically not had items that affect the stats that give them dps (STR + INT + DA + MELEE & SPELL CRIT) while retaining their survivability (MIT + AGI +STA) - to dps like a Warrior wearing tank equipment an SK has had to lose their armour and dress like a scout or mage and even then may fall short;  to hold aggro very well a Paladin can simply put amends on a dps class,  while with talented raiders SK's generally have to put on dps equipment (thereby ruining their defensive ability) and use most of their aggro buttons to hold aggro - and even then the SK aggro control will often not be as good; sks need more stat types than other classes to dps well but get the same number of AA points to spend on stats as other classes.  It doesnt require an unfair advantage like extra AA points to fix some of this - for instance just make all SK spell, CA and melee damage INT based rather than STR and INT based and reflect this in SK tank equipment.</p><p>It has always struck me as odd that to DPS averagely well SKs have to use such a complicated, unpredictable and GUESS based system of timing autoattacking/spells/and CAs.  Miss an autoattack and SK dps plummets.  Dont use certain Spells and CAs and SK's and dps plummets.  Dont spec like a scout or mage and dps plummets.  At the moment even if an SK gets attack timing pretty close to spot on they will generally only parse mediocre dps in a talented raid force (presently thats maybe 3k+, more is possible but thats generally only with end-game items and/or hogging all of the dps buffs).  There is nothing really to tell you when x.x seconds is up so that you can safely press a spell without missing an autoattack - its largely guess work.  All the skill and experience of years of play really do no more than make you better at guessing.  If SKs are to continue having to use what is presently perhaps the hardest and most inconsistent way to generate dps shouldn't the trade off be that if they get it right their dps rises to commensurately high levels?</p><p>As a general point why should warriors (Guards atm but pre-Rok it was Zerkers) be better defensive tanks at all?  In fantasy lore generally aren't "Knights" considered to be the ones who wear the heaviest armour and shields and are the "best" defensively while warriors and beserkers are the ones that go in with bare chests and arms and use their swords, axes knees and head etc to pummel the opponents?  The saying is "Knight in Shining Armour" not "Warrior in Shining Armour".</p><p>From the little i've heard it sounds like important steps to balance the tanks in the new expansion have already been taken.  I would suggest:</p><p>- balance the underlying dps, aggro control, avoidance and mitigation of the tank classes; </p><p>- continue with and develop further the proposed SK aa's;</p><p>- make SK dps and survivability dependant on fewer stats and ensure that equipment for SKs matches those stats;</p><p>- stand back and consider objectively "can I honestly say that each of these tank classes is equally desirable for raid tanking";</p><p>- do we need to go a little further to make the perviously underpowered tank classes more desirable until people realise how useful those classes can be?</p>

[Itteybit]

<p>Here! HERE! I came on to make a post to find that someone had the words that I wanted to say already penned. I have been playing SK for 20 years in different scenarios. The past 7 have been in EQ1 and EQ2 over those years I have steadily seen the powers and abilities of the SK being stripped. To now a Plate class is no more useful than a have to situation on many raids. I have to know someone or kiss enough to even hope for a shot at getting on a raid where I MIGHT get a shot at a piece of gear.  </p><p>   While the expansion promises a return to the SK. It may be too late. The raiders and groups that would have taken me in the past have moved on. A year of waiting for gear that never came. I almost feel that I waisted my time trying to find that one piece that one more drop. When i got there man it looked like a piece for a paladin with WIS or it was more designed for Healer,, or heaven forbid... Am i supposed to wear this scout gear?  </p><p>   I ask to go on raids and I am told by the raid leaders if I need an SK,, If I can,, Possibly depends on how many other tanks show up,, depends on if I cant find a something other than a... Do you think that makes me want to play a class that was once feared. That I was desired greatly to come in groups or raids.. </p><p>    I cant get raid geared to even have a chance in Veksar or RE2. With some of the best healers in the game. I ask for fair play amoung the classes not over powered godlike status. Just to be shunned and not even a third wheel more like a spare used tire is a deplorable feeling.. </p><p>   Sincerely,</p><p> Itteybit Preying'Bear </p><p>Knight of the Mist</p><p>80 Shadow Knight</p><p>Lucan De'lere</p>

[Mathafern]

I agree with Friend about striking the balance between aggro, DPS, tanking. I agree with him about itemization. I disagree that all the fighter classes should be equally desirable as MT.  Sorry, there's one MT per raid.  If you can't play your class at a high level, you're not going to MT.  Really, a raid has two slots for TANKS.  MT and OT.  So if some fighters can't do something else well, you're talking about always taking only two fighters per raid, if all fighters are optimized for MTing. Personally I think SK is just about optimal for OT.  I do that all the time (when I'm not MTing).  I'd be happier with SK optimized for THAT than having every fighter class optimized for MT.

[Kaarim]

Off tanking is much more fun and enjoyable <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> . You have to be one step above everyone else incase something slips, you are like the hidden ace. OT gotta be kept on their toes and act quickly, anything can happen in a raid. MT dying, random adds spawning, roamer incoming, staying head to head with the MT on the hate list. It's a lot of fun you get to work a lot harder than the main tank. Shadowknights make great off tanks <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, lookin forward to the improvements to make us even better for this role.

[Nero]

Can devs really feel our pain?When TSO launches, we will know the answer.