To the Developers: What exactly is the role of Bruisers on raids? [Archive]

evilgamer

09-05-2008, 02:15 PM

The dev's already answered similar questions for both SK's and Bezerkers.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/wiki/Dev_Chat_July_31_2008" target="_blank">http://eq2.allakhazam.com/wiki/Dev_...at_July_31_2008</a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=425579" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=425579</a>Tanking was given as the raid role for both of those classes and I dont think any knowledgble guardians or paladins are confused about their roles in raids (tanking).So that begs the question:What is exactly is the role of bruisers (and brawlers in general) on raids?Tanking?DPS?Utility?Because if it is any of those, Bruisers need a vast improvment in whichever it is.I am not aware of any serious raiding guild that uses a Bruiser as either a MT or OT because were are far to squishy to stand up to the toughest raid mobs in challenging content.If our role is DPS, then our DPS needs to be increased to at the very least rogue level. And this will not interfere with Rogues desirability on raids because they already have great utility with their buffs and debuffs (hate transfer. swipe and dispatch). If this is our role then move us to Rogue DPS level and our utility will be our ability to offtank as needed. For the naysayers, this will not overpower us in heroic or solo content either. As of right now rogues tank almost as well as we do anyway and mages solo hard mobs 10 times better then we do. If being able to dps well, and solo well was overpowering then enchanters need nerfed, because they are the best soloers in the game, they dps just under predators, and they have the best buffs in the game.If our role is utility, then we need a boat load more utility to even to begin to compare with bards or enchanters heck even rouges for that matter (dispatch, hate transfer, swipe)So this begs the question, what exactly is the raid role of bruisers? Or do we even have one besides a few gimmicky fights like the sisters in SOH?SO DEVELOPERS, DO YOU HAVE THE COURAGE TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION?:What is the raid role of bruisers and brawlers in general?

Quicksilver74

09-05-2008, 02:29 PM

I think you know full well the answer to this question before you even made this post, but I'll play along for the sake of the other folks who will happen to read this post. Our primary role on a raid is what I would call "The Quick Tank". We have several Snap Aggro abilities that allow us to grab an add, or a lost main mob, and get it back where it needs to be, or hold it until the MT can pick it up. Drag, Divide and Conquer, Rescue, and Control Hate are all good for this sort of thing. Secondary jobs are Damage prevention for MT by use of Shake off and our intercede line, and dps, which we rock at if you play your bruiser well.

evilgamer

09-05-2008, 02:48 PM

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote> I think you know full well the answer to this question before you even made this post, but I'll play along for the sake of the other folks who will happen to read this post. Our primary role on a raid is what I would call "The Quick Tank". We have several Snap Aggro abilities that allow us to grab an add, or a lost main mob, and get it back where it needs to be, or hold it until the MT can pick it up. Drag, Divide and Conquer, Rescue, and Control Hate are all good for this sort of thing. The problem with this "Quick Tank" theory is that if everything goes the way it should. You should never have a need for a "quick tank". Also it stands to reason that if we can tank these mobs for any amount of time, and have great aggro, then why not just use us as MT or OT? I cant tell you the number of times I dragged a raid mob and then went splat. And that is with raid buffs pushing me to 78% avoidence and 56% mitigation. Secondary jobs are Damage prevention for MT by use of Shake off and our intercede line, and dps, which we rock at if you play your bruiser well. First off all, monks avoidence check buff owns the bruiser one.And to be completely honest no tanks in my expierance truely even care about Shake off. I dont think I have ever had a raid tank ask for mine and when I do put it on them, often I have to keep casting it because they keep casting their avoid check buff, overwriting mine. If this buff was that important, all tanks would know what it is, how it works and would ask for it every single time.I would be wiling to bet nobody has ever invited a bruiser to a raid to intercded the tank and I can not count the number of times I died interceding the tank. Intercede is pretty much a joke on raids imo. And yes we DPS "oK", but never enough to justify giving us a slot to DPS over a true DPS scout or mage class.</blockquote>

Pnaxx

09-05-2008, 03:13 PM

Considering the dev's answer to SK's......what else would they possibly say to us?Bludwyng: Stugein asks, What, if any, incentive do you feel is there for people to use one of the precious 24 raid slots on a Shadowknight? What benefit do they bring to the table that one of the other classes can't do far better or more efficiently?Aeralik: The primary role of the shadowknight is tanking which is why a raid should want to bring one along. Currently when it comes to tanking some classes definitely outshine the rest which is something we will be looking into. Tank balance though is more of a long term project. So don't expect anything in the next few updates but it is on our radar.

evilgamer

09-05-2008, 03:36 PM

<cite>Pnaxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Considering the dev's answer to SK's......what else would they possibly say to us?Bludwyng: Stugein asks, What, if any, incentive do you feel is there for people to use one of the precious 24 raid slots on a Shadowknight? What benefit do they bring to the table that one of the other classes can't do far better or more efficiently?Aeralik: The primary role of the shadowknight is tanking which is why a raid should want to bring one along. Currently when it comes to tanking some classes definitely outshine the rest which is something we will be looking into. Tank balance though is more of a long term project. So don't expect anything in the next few updates but it is on our radar.</blockquote>Ok so if our role in raids is to tank.Do you think that we have even remotely the amount of tools to raid tank that any of the other classes have?Compared to Guardians, Paladins, Zerkers, Monks and even SK's our tanking tools are a complete joke.We have no tower of stone, tsunami, adrenaline, (dont even mention the myth, because only about .5% of bruiser even have it), bloodletter, etc or any other type of "OHH CRAP" defensive ability that all the other tank classes get.

Quicksilver74

09-06-2008, 02:12 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>And to be completely honest no tanks in my expierance truely even care about Shake off. I dont think I have ever had a raid tank ask for mine and when I do put it on them, often I have to keep casting it because they keep casting their avoid check buff, overwriting mine. If this buff was that important, all tanks would know what it is, how it works and would ask for it every single time.</blockquote></blockquote>You see right there tells me you do not even fully understand the potential of the class you cry about every single day. Shake off is HUGE. If you cast it on a tank and they use theirs to overwrite you you shoudl step up and say something to them. Here's a free lesson in utility from Crabbok: Avoiding for the Main Tank. On any given raid, there shoudl be at least 2 classes avoiding for the main tank. One should be the main tank Templar, using shield ally. This can easily block 10-15% of the hits that woudl have normally gone through. Next should be another fighter. Brawlers are good for this, as is a paladin, with AA's for block. If you are the one who will use your avoid on the main tank, first you need to let him know that you have your avoid on him. Next, you want to make sure you stay within range of the main tank. As a bruiser, you will want to watch your maintained buff bar for Retribution of stone, as you will occasinally riposte for the MT, triggering a stoneskin. When this happens you should intercede on the MT, as it will consume your stoneskin and deal no damage to you. On a harder fight, you will want to have the most avoidance gear you can have on and be in defensive stance to maximize your avoidance for the main tank. Using items with uncontested avoid also help greatly. If you stay in defensive, and stay in range, (close enough to hit intercede), you should find that you have avoided 20-35% of the hits that would have normally gone through to the tank.

evilgamer

09-06-2008, 04:04 PM

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>And to be completely honest no tanks in my expierance truely even care about Shake off. I dont think I have ever had a raid tank ask for mine and when I do put it on them, often I have to keep casting it because they keep casting their avoid check buff, overwriting mine. If this buff was that important, all tanks would know what it is, how it works and would ask for it every single time.</blockquote></blockquote>You see right there tells me you do not even fully understand the potential of the class you cry about every single day. Shake off is HUGE. If you cast it on a tank and they use theirs to overwrite you you shoudl step up and say something to them. Here's a free lesson in utility from Crabbok: Avoiding for the Main Tank. On any given raid, there shoudl be at least 2 classes avoiding for the main tank. One should be the main tank Templar, using shield ally. This can easily block 10-15% of the hits that woudl have normally gone through. Next should be another fighter. Brawlers are good for this, as is a paladin, with AA's for block. If you are the one who will use your avoid on the main tank, first you need to let him know that you have your avoid on him. Next, you want to make sure you stay within range of the main tank. As a bruiser, you will want to watch your maintained buff bar for Retribution of stone, as you will occasinally riposte for the MT, triggering a stoneskin. When this happens you should intercede on the MT, as it will consume your stoneskin and deal no damage to you. On a harder fight, you will want to have the most avoidance gear you can have on and be in defensive stance to maximize your avoidance for the main tank. Using items with uncontested avoid also help greatly. If you stay in defensive, and stay in range, (close enough to hit intercede), you should find that you have avoided 20-35% of the hits that would have normally gone through to the tank. </blockquote>Way to COMPLETELY miss my point. I am not questioning as to if Shake off is a valuable buff or not. I know it is or it would not be on my hot bar.The point I am making is that it is simply not enough of a reason to give a bruiser a raid slot, especially when you consider that 5 other classes can give a similar and in the case of monks better variation of Shake off.I respect you Crabbok and I think you give very sound advice on this forum, but to be honest I really do not think you understand the issues that newer up and coming bruisers have to deal with.You have already said that you are a long time member of your VP raiding guild and that in addition to the fact that you are a good player is probably the only reason you are on the roster, NOT beause you are a bruiser.Let me ask you this, if you stoped playing EQ 2, do you seriously believe your guild would go out of their way to recruit another bruiser?Also, gear matters immensely to a brawler, probably more then any other fighter class I would say. With VP and other end game gear, yep brawlers are a powerful class. WIth instance gear there is alot of issues that you and other raid geared brawlers simply do not have to deal with.

DisturbedMagg

09-06-2008, 04:27 PM

Crabbok you know all to well what his point was you said it right at the start yourself that he no doubt knew the answer to his question(s), he is after a definitive answer from the developers of this game and this class. Once he recieves that he will no doubt be able to pick out numerous, never-ending holes that they have managed to overlook in regards to the class itself and other classes in comparison.He isn't after the 101 of being a brawler, thats something else you know perfectly well. Im not going to go down the old road of comparing abilities with other classes and aviodance this, mitigation that, its not required. However well you play your class, however much you believe that your position in a raid is justified, the simple well known fact is that the basic Bruiser is not required, the class has numerous things that need to be taken into account and dealt with. Take out personal playstyles, take out the fact your assasin may be sh*t and you outparse which somehow means your amasing and the class is fine, take out the high end gear you have, take out the fact your guild atm has no other tanks beside you, take out all the rubbish that makes your position as a bruiser justified, take it right down to the very basics and you know class is not needed in any shape or form on any raid in this game.

DisturbedMagg

09-06-2008, 04:39 PM

Here's an example for you to take into account before you go back to your narrow mind view of your gear and your amasing awesomeness that is you.Lets say for arguments sake a Bruiser reaches level 80 and has 140 AA's. His gear is MC/Legendary Instanced gear and he wanted to raid on this toon (ignore the usual rubbish of if you wanna raid reroll to this or that) Lets say again for arguments sake he is 50/50 on the master/adept III side of things.He is not known for his playstyle, abilty as a player, does not have an contacts or referals to confirm he is a god player it just a simple player with his simple class looking to raid.Tell me one reason why that very Bruiser would be able to get a spot in some guild for raiding ( softcore-raiding/HC doesnt matter), taking all the above into account.Then think about the same details but a swash, assassin, guard, illy, coercer, etc etc ETC.You need to quit with this deluded bs about the class being fine all round its not, its fine when your geared, its fine when you have a fairly extensive knowledge of how to to play the class that makes your very place justified, its fine when you have been in a guild from the ground up or when you have a decent amount of background to get you to the application stage that allows you to prove yourself, thats it, for the basic/general/avaergae whatever you wish to call it Bruiser it is not.

Quicksilver74

09-06-2008, 09:11 PM

where have I said that our class is fine all around? If anything it's the game design that isn't fine all around. I wanna see all fighter raidwide buffs become crucial... and no 2 of the same type stack... I wanna see 24 step heroic opportunities, that are raidwide, I wanna see more reasons for getting EVERYONE into a raid, not just bruisers. Yes Efob your right, my view may be skewed, but my voice still counts. I represent the quintessential raiding bruiser. I see people cry out that bruiser need to be upgraded and that almost scares me. It scares me because my dps is already monstrous, (yes alot of it is because of gear) and if that gets a boost, theres no doubt I'll be making assasins cry nerf again... and we'll be in the same boat we tend to be in every 6 months or so. I'm afraid were going to end up worse that we are already. We have to be very carefull what we wish for.

familyguyfan95

09-07-2008, 01:17 AM

Just want so say that i never even thought about using the stoneskin/intercede, I have to say that is a very good combo to work with. I have to agree with crab that while we remain with our own problems there is something kinda wierd when there are 24 people in a raid, yet a dirge can get in all 4 groups without even thinking about it. I think he is correct in saying that we need more for EVERYONE in the raid and not just bruisers because unless you do a pickup raid or a low end raid then you will probably see more than 3 fighters involved since they could not find "the perfect raid" that so many other people use.This is just my opinion but i think when most people see 2-4 bards or enchanters in the raid they think to themselves that their class sucks and in order to get in a raid you must make one of those classes that are "needed". And when you see that, I tend to agree with crab, why should 2-4 of the same classes by involved when the others are "left out" due to lack of "buffs/utility/tankage/insert complaint here''. Now since he does have the best gear and probably a top tier bruiser not just in gear but player ability(i'm not kissing your butt or anything) he can tell you that tanking and dps with the "right gear" is easily done. But most people without the gear tend to disagree and are frustrated that they arent invited to the raid to get thier stuff because they just arent wanted. Like i said, just speaking from my own frustrations/experiences/gripes/etc and believe that if there are 24 classes available and 24 slots on a raid, then it makes sense that the 24 different classes should be involved. And when they are not, that says to me either:1: people doing the raids are dumb to exclude them all, 2: something is wrong with the [Removed for Content] that are left out due to various reasons, 3: or there is just a perception that the unwanted classes really should be needed, but since people frame their own stereotypes of the classes such as guardians being the best no matter who plays it, there will always be the stigma of a certain class as unusefull. Or probably a bit of all of them. There also is a division amongst the bruisers in a tank/dps view. One says that a bruiser is a fighter and has to tank, the other says one is dps and should be a dps. But thats another story but still an important factor in still not being able to satisfy everyone.Cheers and good luck.

Novusod

09-07-2008, 01:20 AM

There are major problems with the bruiser class that definately need boosting. Part of the problem is itemization in that the VP gear is way too good. The overpowered gear in VP has given the devs a false sense that they have somehow ballanced the class. The bruiser is like a burnt hamburger that is still frozen on the inside. No it doesn't even out and it doesn't taste good either so I have every right send it back. The first things that should be done in class balancing would be to nerf the dickens out VP brawler leather and weapons. That way boosts to the class in general won't be game breaking overpowering to end game raiding bruisers. Instance geared brawlers are pretty much useless and broken in raids. When you ballance a class with OP gear as soon as you take away the OP gear the class becomes extremely gimped. Instance gear means parsing around 2k and getting one-shotted by any epic. It has been an epic struggle just to get even a few pieces of PR gear in that state let alone clearing to VP. The old time bruisers don't have a clue as to the struggles up and coming bruisers have to get anywhere. Lots of instance geared bruisers WANT to raid but are denied because the class is useless until it is end game geared. That leaves players of the class few options. That is BAD design and it needs to change.

evilgamer

09-07-2008, 06:46 AM

But a monk with the best gear in the game can parse 7k and tank avatars, lol, that means we must be balanced <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Bascially there is not middle class with bruisers.You are either one of the elite raiders who have probably been with a very high end raiding guild forever and have access to gear that puts us on par with the other classes, which is like 5% of all bruisers at 80.Or you a AD3 instanced geared bruiser, who struggles to even gain repect from pickup groups who demand plate tanks, that parses between 2-3K and gets 1-2 shoted against epics.Then you go on Teir 1 raids and get doomcoils baton and never see another piece of loot till VP lol.

Novusod

09-07-2008, 03:53 PM

Doomcoils Baton is not the only drop in PR but the rest is so stupidly rare it is ridiculous. All the general fighter armor in PR is plate. After 9 months of raiding PR twice a week I managed to get 3 pieces of the Jugernaught set. The helm and shoulders are nice but the gloves a junk. Getting the three set bonus and the avoidance from the helm puts me somewhat into the middle class of where bruisers should be. The problem is the end game bruisers are TOO powerfull so any calls for boosting bruisers in general fall on deaf ears. But a monk with the best gear in the game can parse 7k and tank avatars, that means we must be balancedThe sad thing is statements like this are actually taken seriously and hold more weight then all the other reasonable complaints combined. If you question any of these Avatar tanking monks they say something like:"What do you mean you are getting one shotted?""How can you not have 50% uncontested avoidance?""lol noob, you are not even trying, L2P, QQ more."The bottom line is the bruiser class stewards are at best out of touch with the community and at worst are actively working against our best interests. The devs need to start listening to the community directly and fix these problems that 99% of bruisers have issues with.

Pnaxx

09-07-2008, 07:04 PM

Evilgamer, I can see you know what you are talking about, but I am just tired of hearin it all the time. I love my Bruiser and I know that the devs are workin on fixin things in the furure on fighters. So I am just chillin to then. I hope you can do the same and just enjoy the class or roll a monk.

evilgamer

09-07-2008, 11:18 PM

<cite>Pnaxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Evilgamer, I can see you know what you are talking about, but I am just tired of hearin it all the time. I love my Bruiser and I know that the devs are workin on fixin things in the furure on fighters. So I am just chillin to then. I hope you can do the same and just enjoy the class or roll a monk.</blockquote>So because I asked the devs the same question that other fighter classes have asked I need to roll a monk?Listen I dont care what they make our raid role out to be, dps, tanking, or uitiltiy, cause I am pretty skilled at both.I am pretty satisfied with my bruiser for the most part in heroic content or I would not have bothered to level to 80/140 in about 6 months.In fact I care passionately about the bruiser class and the class is my main unlike alot of people who post here.If you are happy with being a run of the mill instance only tank and dps class that is fine, but I am not.I want to be able to take my bruiser all the way to the very end of this games content and not having to rely on the "good will" of other to do so.By "good will" I mean that people will want me in raids not just because I am a nice person who helps out and does what he can for the guild (which I do anyway) but because having a bruiser in the raid is freaking awesome and every guild would love to have a bruiser in the raid. Sorry but by any objective standards that is just not the case. I dont want the bruiser class to be nothing more then just a solo / shiney farming alt class for people when they are not raiding, which seems to be the direction it is going. I want it to be a viable raid, solo, and grouping class to the point where people are just as excited about a bruiser in the raid/group as they are a chanter/bard/guardian or whatever.Hate on me if you feel the need, but I dont care. I like my bruiser and I am tired of seeing my class gimped out by a lack of developer involement.

Gilasil

09-08-2008, 12:38 AM

I dunno. The game is what? Pushing four years old? And they don't know what two classes are for in raids which they've had since launch? And only now are they working on a "long term" solution?What have the devs been doing the last four years?It does get tiersome seeing these complaints over and over, but I suspect that if people didn't whine so much the chances of anything being done would be hovering around zero. I think the s1queaky wheel really does get the grease.I would very much like to see a other tips and/or strategy guides by the likes of Crabbok for how to play my bruiser better (I'm one of that 95% of bruisers in MC/Legendary who's struggling I figure if I can't get better gear I can at least get the most mileage out of the gear I've got). That he offhand could toss out such a suggestion to me indicates he probably knows a lot more which would be useful to share.When I was playing my monk in EQ1 I spent a lot of time in the Monkly Business website. It was a treasure trove of knowledge from a monk perspective. To the best of my knowledge there is nothing like it for EQ2 brawlers, which is a real shame..

Kithap

09-08-2008, 02:23 AM

eq2flames.com/bruiser

Danan

09-08-2008, 06:00 AM

Quicksilver74

09-08-2008, 09:42 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>The first things that should be done in class balancing would be to nerf the dickens out VP brawler leather and weapons.</blockquote>Who is working against our class exactly? nerf is a 4 letter word. Please refrain from using it every again thanks.

Errolflynn

09-08-2008, 09:53 AM

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>The first things that should be done in class balancing would be to nerf the dickens out VP brawler leather and weapons.</blockquote>Who is working against our class exactly? nerf is a 4 letter word. Please refrain from using it every again thanks. </blockquote>No you don't need to nerf the VP stuff, you just need some more stuff inbetween.My raid alliance has just cleared all the T1 zones, I look at the gear my Swashy has got and compare it to my Monk there is no comparison. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Pnaxx

09-08-2008, 10:36 AM

<cite>Dananeb wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pnaxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Evilgamer, I can see you know what you are talking about, but I am just tired of hearin it all the time. I love my Bruiser and I know that the devs are workin on fixin things in the furure on fighters. So I am just chillin to then. I hope you can do the same and just enjoy the class or roll a monk.</blockquote>People need to speak up about these things, and discussions need to be had, if not then it will just be another failed attempt of balancing. It is good you have faith in the Developers, but many of us thats been around since the start are loosing that faith, and feel that it needs to be spoken up about. And finally, you really dont have to read these posts if you feel its just another thread about the same issue.</blockquote>What I am saying is that Evilgamer has spoken up. I get it and I agree with his points. My point is, do we need another thread on this? They know our concerns. At this point it is just repeating one's self. Blah blah blah....we suck on raids....blah blah blah....we need to be fixed.....blah blah blah.....we no raid desirerability.....blah blah blah......Yea...al that is true, but how many threads do we need to start on it. Everytime I see Evilgamer post in here or other forums, it's the same thing. The word is out...the devs need to fix things, I agree. I understand. I am dissappointed to. But enough is enough.

Aull

09-08-2008, 10:47 AM

<cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dunno. The game is what? Pushing four years old? And they don't know what two classes are for in raids which they've had since launch? And only now are they working on a "long term" solution?What have the devs been doing the last four years?It does get tiersome seeing these complaints over and over, but I suspect that if people didn't whine so much the chances of anything being done would be hovering around zero. I think the s1queaky wheel really does get the grease.I would very much like to see a other tips and/or strategy guides by the likes of Crabbok for how to play my bruiser better (I'm one of that 95% of bruisers in MC/Legendary who's struggling I figure if I can't get better gear I can at least get the most mileage out of the gear I've got). That he offhand could toss out such a suggestion to me indicates he probably knows a lot more which would be useful to share.When I was playing my monk in EQ1 I spent a lot of time in the Monkly Business website. It was a treasure trove of knowledge from a monk perspective. To the best of my knowledge there is nothing like it for EQ2 brawlers, which is a real shame..</blockquote>I honestly doubt that anything will be done to the bruiser class period or any other class. So much time has passed that if any thing is done it wouldn't be remotely close to what bruisers need and could possibly break the bruiser class and end up in a worse state than what it is now. I think that many wonderful ideas have been put on the table for the bruiser class but again I do not expect after all this time that anything will ever be done.I will do what I can to get my bruiser in a position where I can get the best gear that I can, but it has been a very slow and aggonizing trek so far.

mr23sgte

09-08-2008, 11:35 AM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pnaxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Evilgamer, I can see you know what you are talking about, but I am just tired of hearin it all the time. I love my Bruiser and I know that the devs are workin on fixin things in the furure on fighters. So I am just chillin to then. I hope you can do the same and just enjoy the class or roll a monk.</blockquote>So because I asked the devs the same question that other fighter classes have asked I need to roll a monk?Listen I dont care what they make our raid role out to be, dps, tanking, or uitiltiy, cause I am pretty skilled at both.I am pretty satisfied with my bruiser for the most part in heroic content or I would not have bothered to level to 80/140 in about 6 months.In fact I care passionately about the bruiser class and the class is my main unlike alot of people who post here.If you are happy with being a run of the mill instance only tank and dps class that is fine, but I am not.I want to be able to take my bruiser all the way to the very end of this games content and not having to rely on the "good will" of other to do so.By "good will" I mean that people will want me in raids not just because I am a nice person who helps out and does what he can for the guild (which I do anyway) but because having a bruiser in the raid is freaking awesome and every guild would love to have a bruiser in the raid. Sorry but by any objective standards that is just not the case. I dont want the bruiser class to be nothing more then just a solo / shiney farming alt class for people when they are not raiding, which seems to be the direction it is going. I want it to be a viable raid, solo, and grouping class to the point where people are just as excited about a bruiser in the raid/group as they are a chanter/bard/guardian or whatever.Hate on me if you feel the need, but I dont care. I like my bruiser and I am tired of seeing my class gimped out by a lack of developer involement.</blockquote>Trust me Monks have problems too - your'e going about your complaints the wrong way if you think making Bruisers like Monks is the answer. hell, I get aske to "Drag" mobs just about every raid on my Monk lol. I feel your pain and have read most of your posts as i have an 80 Bruiser as well.Both classes need some help, if it wasnt for the raidwide buff I see NO REASON why a Monk would be chosen over a Bruiser in raids. Bruiser>DPS Bruiser "Drag" > Rescue 2.0 "Peel" on most mobsBruiser> Mit without root + Bruiser Epic weapon has Tsunami

evilgamer

09-08-2008, 12:23 PM

<cite>Hereo@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pnaxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Evilgamer, I can see you know what you are talking about, but I am just tired of hearin it all the time. I love my Bruiser and I know that the devs are workin on fixin things in the furure on fighters. So I am just chillin to then. I hope you can do the same and just enjoy the class or roll a monk.</blockquote>So because I asked the devs the same question that other fighter classes have asked I need to roll a monk?Listen I dont care what they make our raid role out to be, dps, tanking, or uitiltiy, cause I am pretty skilled at both.I am pretty satisfied with my bruiser for the most part in heroic content or I would not have bothered to level to 80/140 in about 6 months.In fact I care passionately about the bruiser class and the class is my main unlike alot of people who post here.If you are happy with being a run of the mill instance only tank and dps class that is fine, but I am not.I want to be able to take my bruiser all the way to the very end of this games content and not having to rely on the "good will" of other to do so.By "good will" I mean that people will want me in raids not just because I am a nice person who helps out and does what he can for the guild (which I do anyway) but because having a bruiser in the raid is freaking awesome and every guild would love to have a bruiser in the raid. Sorry but by any objective standards that is just not the case. I dont want the bruiser class to be nothing more then just a solo / shiney farming alt class for people when they are not raiding, which seems to be the direction it is going. I want it to be a viable raid, solo, and grouping class to the point where people are just as excited about a bruiser in the raid/group as they are a chanter/bard/guardian or whatever.Hate on me if you feel the need, but I dont care. I like my bruiser and I am tired of seeing my class gimped out by a lack of developer involement.</blockquote>Trust me Monks have problems too - your'e going about your complaints the wrong way if you think making Bruisers like Monks is the answer. hell, I get aske to "Drag" mobs just about every raid on my Monk lol. I feel your pain and have read most of your posts as i have an 80 Bruiser as well.Both classes need some help, if it wasnt for the raidwide buff I see NO REASON why a Monk would be chosen over a Bruiser in raids. Bruiser>DPS Bruiser "Drag" > Rescue 2.0 "Peel" on most mobsBruiser> Mit without root + Bruiser Epic weapon has Tsunami</blockquote>You have me all wrong if you think I want to overpower bruisers to the detriment of monks.I want both classes to be balanced and have raid viability.But lets be honest here, your raid wide buff is almost like freaking dispatch is. Its very powerful and signifanctly increases the dps and overall power of the raid.The bruiser raid wide is a complete joke compared to the monk one and as a result monks have pretty much obsoleted bruisers on raids.Now I dont want monks nerfed I want the bruiser raid wide to match the monk raid wide.If the bruiser raid wide was improved, guilds would still want monks. Your raidwide is that good imo. I love your raid wide buff and anyone with a clue would to.Also peel & tsunami are a very powerful combo too. I know bruiser get D & C and the clicky on their mythical, but hardly any bruisers have their mythical. So its not quite the same.Yes your mythical needs fixed.

Novusod

09-08-2008, 02:11 PM

Not all that much time has passed when you consider that the game has changed significantly since it was first released. At release gaining xp was extremely slow and there were harsh penalties for dying. There wasn't this huge emphasis on raiding like there is now. Simply getting to level cap (50) before they increased it (60) was a huge accomplishment in its own right. At release you started the game as a general fighter and then became a brawler at level 10, and a bruiser at level 20. Becoming a bruiser had huge advantages in that early game. Bruisers were given the innate avoidance of having a round shield equiped at all times. Bruisers were one of the few classes that could solo in those days back when solo'ing meant grinding heroics. The game we have now is totally different. Any class can solo to 80 with ease. The days of solo'ing Nest and PoA are long over. The only thing that matters in terms of accomplishing anything is raiding. The problem is no role has ever been offered to the bruiser when it comes to raiding. Some say the bruiser is DPS but will only dps when given the best overpowered gear in the game and put in a stacked group. Take a bruiser with instance gear and put them in the "fat kid" group and you can watch them bearly keep up with the bards and get fully out parsed by furies and mystics. I ask where is the ballance in that. Some also say we are tanks but the bruiser is the squishiest of all the tank classes. How can it be that we tank less than zerkers but they will far out dps a bruiser at the low end?A bruiser with the right overpowered gear can both Parse high and tank well. Putting OP gear on a broken class does not change the fact that the class is broken nor does it justify the existance of OP gear just because it can only be worn by a gimpy class. If that gear gets nerfed back to with in reason the devs will no longer be able to ingnore that the bruiser has not kept up with the changing game. Rather than let the bruiser become relic of past I would like to see them updated to fill new roles so a raid guild want to bring a bruiser.

Quicksilver74

09-08-2008, 02:37 PM

We all want that man. I just don't want raid gear nerfed as a result.

DisturbedMagg

09-08-2008, 02:48 PM

The major thing the messed this whole balancing deal out was SOE's decision to keep everyone on the same level more or less. It's not rocket science to work out if you want the best gear, you have to put the time into it etc etc.The gear you have should improve your charater with leaps and bounds not how it is right now.They shouldn't have implenmented the curve, the high end raiders should be gods compared to casuals thats how it should work just like eq1, that way you dont even have to worry about balancing and they could deal with other sh*t. People can cry its unbalanced but the simple fact is its unbalanced that way on purpose because people out in the effort, this care bear cr*p causes more problems then they should allow.The simple fact is the Bruiser class with app1 CA's and no gear should be as useful on a raid as any other class with app1 ca's and no gear just the same as an SK etc should be. Nerfing gear to do this and nerfing something else to accomplish that is pointless. Right now if they sorted the RW out i'd be happy with the class for myself but for the casuals out there who run around in MC or less it's bs and still needs sorting.

Aull

09-08-2008, 09:08 PM

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>We all want that man. I just don't want raid gear nerfed as a result. </blockquote>I totally agree with Crabbok. My bruiser is no where close to Crabbok, Efob, or any of the rest of you bruisers here in terms of equipment. I do not think that nerfing the end game equipment would help any of the rest of the bruisers that have it now and I sure wouldn't be pressing for the end game equipment if it sucked either cause that would be nothing to look forward to.

Xanrn

09-09-2008, 12:56 PM

Brawler end game gear is not OP. Its on the same level as everyone else.The problem is Brawler gear progression is utterly crap.In T1-T3 raiding including the First 4 nameds in Hate. We are missing item progression from Instance gear in alot of our slots.The only Brawler hat from T1-3 is a Tanking Piece which if you swap out the Reet Leather Helm or the Hat from Sebilis you will actually loose DPS. But then you get to VP and you get Lava Retardent with +4 DA and MC or The Set Helm which is +7 Melee Crit or is DA can't remember.Gloves, again the only Fabled Gloves from T1-T3 are statless rubbish, so you will want the Legendary Gloves from KJ Dominus or even worse. Then you get to VP and the Set Gloves have +7 Melee Crit admitelly they nerfed the +40 Haste Gloves from VP to +5% Hate Gain (wtgf was that anyway, bunch of -ing whiny scouts), but going from +2 DA to +7 MC.Belts, well again here your screw from DPS belts, you from a +2 MC and 35 hate belt or various +3 MC belts to the Sash of Pain from Byzola which is an obscene DPS rise.Chests, you from the GI of Jarsath to the Druushk or Maestro GIs with nothing inbetween (although frankly the GI should be in a Raid Zone)Shoulders, Boots, Legs, Cloaks (although solely because of RE2 and Veksar). Are all fairly good item progression.Jewelry, is a Tad Messed up, although corrected a bit with Hate. Basically the Kunark T1-T3 zones have little to know decent Fighter jewelry, where as VP has aload.Weapons well Doomcoil and Mallet and Fabled Epic won't raise your DPS half as much as your Mythical and Nightmare Wraps.

Errolflynn

09-09-2008, 01:10 PM

Yep I looked through all the T1 raids for loot for my Swash and Monk. Not including class armour, I found about 6 pieces for my Swash and only 2 for my Monk that I was interested in.

Quicksilver74

09-09-2008, 02:42 PM

to Xanrn, your right that the gap from T1-3 Fabled to T4 fabled is HUGE, and that creates alot of the disparity between VP brawlers and Pre-VP Brawlers... but the loot you listed is innacurate. The VP set Helm has attack speed and CA damage. The set gloves have no crit, they have 7 DA. For belts there is a belt from PR with DPS mod we can use thats ok, as well as a dominus belt with 3 crit. One of the big problems is that MOST of the brawler raid loot all comes from one zone... the one zone that most raid guild shave the hardest time getting in to. So you have raiding brawlers, which are a minorty alreday due to desireability... and you have all these raid guidls which either cannot, or took forever to get in to VP. Look at the Lava Retardant mining cap.... from Taskmaster in VP. Many brawlers will never see this item... many will never even gain access to this zone... at least not in this expansion. Now look at the chain version for scouts... which drops in Protectors Realm... which just about every raid guild, even casual raid guidls can clear and have been clearing for months. Loot distribution hasn't been spaced out quite good enough in this expansion, especially for brawlers.

Novusod

09-09-2008, 02:46 PM

<cite>Efob@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The major thing the messed this whole balancing deal out was SOE's decision to keep everyone on the same level more or less. It's not rocket science to work out if you want the best gear, you have to put the time into it etc etc.The gear you have should improve your charater with leaps and bounds not how it is right now.They shouldn't have implenmented the curve, the high end raiders should be gods compared to casuals thats how it should work just like eq1, that way you dont even have to worry about balancing and they could deal with other sh*t. People can cry its unbalanced but the simple fact is its unbalanced that way on purpose because people out in the effort, this care bear cr*p causes more problems then they should allow.The simple fact is the Bruiser class with app1 CA's and no gear should be as useful on a raid as any other class with app1 ca's and no gear just the same as an SK etc should be. Nerfing gear to do this and nerfing something else to accomplish that is pointless. Right now if they sorted the RW out i'd be happy with the class for myself but for the casuals out there who run around in MC or less it's bs and still needs sorting.</blockquote>I don't think you are playing the same game I am seeing here. From everything I hear the gear does improve your character by leaps and bounds if not more. Also it is one thing to want raiders to be gods compaired to casuals that put no effort into their characters. The way it is now the end game VP geared bruisers are like gods to other lower end raiders. I have over 100 days played mostly at level 80, 17 T8 masters and 9 pieces of T8 fabled gear and yet the leader board bruisers are parsing 3 to 4 times higher than me and can tank pretty much anything. The VP gear for bruisers is stupidly over powered when there is that much disparity between one set of fabled gear and other set of fabled gear. My gear is a slight step up above the instance junk as it should be but there is no next step between where I am now and getting VP gear. Also their isn't much raid content between where I am now and clearing VP so it is not like intermeadiate set of gear can be added. The solution is to boost bruiser power in general so instance gear isn't seen as trash and PR/Kor-sha gear is a viable step up before clearing VP.

evilgamer

09-09-2008, 04:03 PM

VP brawler gear does not need nerfed.Tier 1-3 brawler gear just needs to be improved.Please post your concerns in this thread I started in the equipment forum. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=429342" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=429342</a>

Xanrn

09-10-2008, 12:27 PM

Yeah Crabbok I am a Monk as my signature says. My class helm isn't attack speed and ca dmg, thats my pants.The crap tastic belt of a thousand foot long name for PR, is not as good as the Chokidai Collar collection belt or the Belts from Veksar or the Dominus. So there is no dps progression.Yes and your right about the Manipulator's Hood vs the Lava Retardent Mining Cap. Pretty much every scout in my guild has that or the Ranged Crit one from one of the Skellies.Personnely Hate is my favourite Zone, got a Ring, 2 Earrings and still want the wrist from the Sisters.

DisturbedMagg

09-10-2008, 06:57 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Efob@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The major thing the messed this whole balancing deal out was SOE's decision to keep everyone on the same level more or less. It's not rocket science to work out if you want the best gear, you have to put the time into it etc etc.The gear you have should improve your charater with leaps and bounds not how it is right now.They shouldn't have implenmented the curve, the high end raiders should be gods compared to casuals thats how it should work just like eq1, that way you dont even have to worry about balancing and they could deal with other sh*t. People can cry its unbalanced but the simple fact is its unbalanced that way on purpose because people out in the effort, this care bear cr*p causes more problems then they should allow.The simple fact is the Bruiser class with app1 CA's and no gear should be as useful on a raid as any other class with app1 ca's and no gear just the same as an SK etc should be. Nerfing gear to do this and nerfing something else to accomplish that is pointless. Right now if they sorted the RW out i'd be happy with the class for myself but for the casuals out there who run around in MC or less it's bs and still needs sorting.</blockquote>I don't think you are playing the same game I am seeing here. From everything I hear the gear does improve your character by leaps and bounds if not more. Also it is one thing to want raiders to be gods compaired to casuals that put no effort into their characters. The way it is now the end game VP geared bruisers are like gods to other lower end raiders. I have over 100 days played mostly at level 80, 17 T8 masters and 9 pieces of T8 fabled gear and yet the leader board bruisers are parsing 3 to 4 times higher than me and can tank pretty much anything. The VP gear for bruisers is stupidly over powered when there is that much disparity between one set of fabled gear and other set of fabled gear. My gear is a slight step up above the instance junk as it should be but there is no next step between where I am now and getting VP gear. Also their isn't much raid content between where I am now and clearing VP so it is not like intermeadiate set of gear can be added. The solution is to boost bruiser power in general so instance gear isn't seen as trash and PR/Kor-sha gear is a viable step up before clearing VP. </blockquote>My version of leaps and bounds is obviously different to yours, i firmly believe, regardless of the fact im at this stage already that end game gear should put you so much further ahead then casual gear that people look at you and think "wow", just like they did in T5.

Lord Primeti

09-10-2008, 10:40 PM

Yeah, our loot selection in T1-T3 Raids is very limited and not powerful enought for raid gear. Making a weak class even weaker as we progress into T4 Raids. I think some group instance gear is better than some of these raid gear we get at T1-T3 raids for us brawlers, which is just wrong!

Ghostlysoul

09-11-2008, 03:37 AM

<cite>Efob@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Efob@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The major thing the messed this whole balancing deal out was SOE's decision to keep everyone on the same level more or less. It's not rocket science to work out if you want the best gear, you have to put the time into it etc etc.The gear you have should improve your charater with leaps and bounds not how it is right now.They shouldn't have implenmented the curve, the high end raiders should be gods compared to casuals thats how it should work just like eq1, that way you dont even have to worry about balancing and they could deal with other sh*t. People can cry its unbalanced but the simple fact is its unbalanced that way on purpose because people out in the effort, this care bear cr*p causes more problems then they should allow.The simple fact is the Bruiser class with app1 CA's and no gear should be as useful on a raid as any other class with app1 ca's and no gear just the same as an SK etc should be. Nerfing gear to do this and nerfing something else to accomplish that is pointless. Right now if they sorted the RW out i'd be happy with the class for myself but for the casuals out there who run around in MC or less it's bs and still needs sorting.</blockquote>I don't think you are playing the same game I am seeing here. From everything I hear the gear does improve your character by leaps and bounds if not more. Also it is one thing to want raiders to be gods compaired to casuals that put no effort into their characters. The way it is now the end game VP geared bruisers are like gods to other lower end raiders. I have over 100 days played mostly at level 80, 17 T8 masters and 9 pieces of T8 fabled gear and yet the leader board bruisers are parsing 3 to 4 times higher than me and can tank pretty much anything. The VP gear for bruisers is stupidly over powered when there is that much disparity between one set of fabled gear and other set of fabled gear. My gear is a slight step up above the instance junk as it should be but there is no next step between where I am now and getting VP gear. Also their isn't much raid content between where I am now and clearing VP so it is not like intermeadiate set of gear can be added. The solution is to boost bruiser power in general so instance gear isn't seen as trash and PR/Kor-sha gear is a viable step up before clearing VP. </blockquote>My version of leaps and bounds is obviously different to yours, i firmly believe, regardless of the fact im at this stage already that end game gear should put you so much further ahead then casual gear that people look at you and think "wow", just like they did in T5.</blockquote>Efob, keep in mind that just because someone doesn't have the top end gear, it doesn't make them a casual raider. Some of us only have weekends to raid on. It doesn't mean that we aren't dedicated to raiding, and willing to work to get the gear. The thing that sucks is that raid guilds don't want anyone that can't raid full time every week night. Most guilds that do take people that can only raid weekends have a tendancy to leave them on the bench when they show up because the week night raiders are "more important" to them.

DisturbedMagg

09-11-2008, 09:27 AM

<cite>Ghostlysoul wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Efob@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Efob@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The major thing the messed this whole balancing deal out was SOE's decision to keep everyone on the same level more or less. It's not rocket science to work out if you want the best gear, you have to put the time into it etc etc.The gear you have should improve your charater with leaps and bounds not how it is right now.They shouldn't have implenmented the curve, the high end raiders should be gods compared to casuals thats how it should work just like eq1, that way you dont even have to worry about balancing and they could deal with other sh*t. People can cry its unbalanced but the simple fact is its unbalanced that way on purpose because people out in the effort, this care bear cr*p causes more problems then they should allow.The simple fact is the Bruiser class with app1 CA's and no gear should be as useful on a raid as any other class with app1 ca's and no gear just the same as an SK etc should be. Nerfing gear to do this and nerfing something else to accomplish that is pointless. Right now if they sorted the RW out i'd be happy with the class for myself but for the casuals out there who run around in MC or less it's bs and still needs sorting.</blockquote>I don't think you are playing the same game I am seeing here. From everything I hear the gear does improve your character by leaps and bounds if not more. Also it is one thing to want raiders to be gods compaired to casuals that put no effort into their characters. The way it is now the end game VP geared bruisers are like gods to other lower end raiders. I have over 100 days played mostly at level 80, 17 T8 masters and 9 pieces of T8 fabled gear and yet the leader board bruisers are parsing 3 to 4 times higher than me and can tank pretty much anything. The VP gear for bruisers is stupidly over powered when there is that much disparity between one set of fabled gear and other set of fabled gear. My gear is a slight step up above the instance junk as it should be but there is no next step between where I am now and getting VP gear. Also their isn't much raid content between where I am now and clearing VP so it is not like intermeadiate set of gear can be added. The solution is to boost bruiser power in general so instance gear isn't seen as trash and PR/Kor-sha gear is a viable step up before clearing VP. </blockquote>My version of leaps and bounds is obviously different to yours, i firmly believe, regardless of the fact im at this stage already that end game gear should put you so much further ahead then casual gear that people look at you and think "wow", just like they did in T5.</blockquote>Efob, keep in mind that just because someone doesn't have the top end gear, it doesn't make them a casual raider. Some of us only have weekends to raid on. It doesn't mean that we aren't dedicated to raiding, and willing to work to get the gear. The thing that sucks is that raid guilds don't want anyone that can't raid full time every week night. Most guilds that do take people that can only raid weekends have a tendancy to leave them on the bench when they show up because the week night raiders are "more important" to them.</blockquote>Definitions of casual on the Web: * marked by blithe unconcern; "an ability to interest casual students"; "showed a casual disregard for cold weather"; "an utterly insouciant ... * without or seeming to be without plan or method; offhand; "a casual remark"; "information collected by casual methods and in their spare time" * appropriate for ordinary or routine occasions; "casual clothes"; "everyday clothes" * occurring or appearing or singled out by chance; "seek help from casual passers-by"; "a casual meeting"; "a chance occurrence" * hasty and without attention to detail; not thorough; "a casual (or cursory) inspection failed to reveal the house's structural flaws"; "a passing glance"; "perfunctory courtesy" * occurring from time to time; "casual employment"; "a casual correspondence with a former teacher"; "an occasional worker" * fooling: characterized by a feeling of irresponsibility; "a broken back is nothing to be casual about; it is no fooling matter" * free-and-easy: natural and unstudied; "using their Christian names in a casual way"; "lectured in a free-and-easy style" * not showing effort or strain; "a difficult feat performed with casual mastery"; "careless grace"

sokil

11-04-2008, 01:53 PM

here is my take on raid briuser...My dirge gets into every raid and why would a raid give up a vauluable spot for a bruiser? One monk and your set. I lvl my bruiser, not in the hopes of raiding, but becuase he is so much more fun than my 80 swashi, dirge or my fury so the best I can hope for is pvp gear for which my bruiser is better suited to get than any of my other toons. The only thing I will miss is my myth which perhaps someday my guild will have pitty and let me get it.Bruiser <a class="image" title="The ISO 3864-1 prohibition sign" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/wiki/Image<img src="></a><img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/ProhibitionSign.svg/150px-ProhibitionSign.svg.png" border="0" width="33" height="26" /> raidBruiser = rocking, fun, exciting, diverse, awasome, fantastic PVP!! Of all my toons my bruiser is the most exciting for pvp. Now I know many of you are not on a pvp server but take my word for it Bruisers are made for pvp. I just hope SOE does not screw it up by making me into a [Removed for Content] gaurdian.Disclaimer: My dirge/swash (track/evac FTW) may have a higher pvp title but they never faught (?) 80 toons at lvl 72 with a chance of winning and not a care in the world. On my bruiser I feel invincible and enjoy every fight no matter if I win.

Greavous

11-04-2008, 09:16 PM

I can fully understand the issues that all of you bring to this discussion. I haven’t played for quite a few months and I’m just getting back into game. I’m only really half way through being fully VP equipped but back 6 months ago when I split would have been in this 5% your talking about. I think the real issue is not, Bruisers are broken, we need more dps, we need more tanking ability. The real issue is “SOE DO YOU GIVE A XXXX ABOUT US” The lack of any direct feedback makes us all feel 1 or 3 different ways. They don’t care how we feel about our class They don’t know how we feel about our class Or they don’t know what to do with our class. I think a lot of the frustration levels we all have at different times could be very easily fixed by a simple. We recognize there are problems, there is no easy fix, but we are working to balance things up. How hard would that be? Personally I love having a class that you have to be very good at to justify a raid spot. I hate the fact that a dirge or illusionist can get into most raids regardless of their ability. I love the fact that there are very few players good enough to be end game raiding Bruisers. I don’t love the fact that SOE seems to think they can ignore an entire class with no feedback and expect us to grin and bare it.

Arimish

11-06-2008, 02:27 AM

THis is a link to the post on EW2 Flames that shows what some of the new pvp gear is going to be. have to scroll down to see them but the Bruiser set is named Quarrelsome. Cant they think of a different name then one that is used allready<a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/player-vs-player-issues/34795-pvp-sets.html">http://www.eq2flames.com/player-vs-...5-pvp-sets.html</a>

Pnaxx

11-06-2008, 09:13 AM

Not sure why this thred is still going considering the devs are hookin us up.....here is the quote..... Message edited by Quicksilver74 on 10/30/2008 12:56:00. I want to thank the devs for reading this thread. It seems many of our concerns are being addressed in the next Expansion. I will wait until the expansion hits before I edit the first post at the moment though, as everything is subject to change. For those who don't know, We are getting some very very nice new treats in the expansion. Some highlights are: A deflection based Tsunami-like ability from AA.A 2 charge Stoneskin, activatable, and only absorbs hits that would be 50% or more of your life. (From AA)A Mitigation Boost through AA2 more rescue-like abilities through AAOur Raid Buff - is now going to add alot of things. By Itself, it will now add Strength, Base Taunt ammount, and Base Combat Art Damage (5% base CA damage atm). Through AA, we can give it 5% accuracy for both melee and spells, and a raidwide de-hate for all non fighters. And my favorite.... Finally a fantastic revamp to the STR line. Basicly they are removing the unnarmed requirement, and changed it a little. The debuff is pretty much the same, the double attack is now like 2.7 DA per point, adding up to 21 at rank 8. And the defensive ability is a deflection bonus that is similar to how shield effectiveness works for plate tanks. There is alot more too, but I'm at work at the moment so coudl only post some highlights from memory. Good things to come for the bruiser!

Greavous

11-06-2008, 09:53 PM

Dupe

Greavous

11-06-2008, 09:53 PM

I think it’s because they fail to deem it necessary to have any meaningful dialog with the bruiser community Pnaxx. I love the changes and I love the Bruiser class above all others. But I think that any impartial reader of any class forums would recognize a distinct lack of interest in communicating with this particular class and the appearance of no credible go-to person representing us inside the development team.<cite>Brannigan@Blackburrow wrote:</cite>

Dorieon

11-07-2008, 06:24 AM

<cite>Brannigan@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can fully understand the issues that all of you bring to this discussion. I haven’t played for quite a few months and I’m just getting back into game. I’m only really half way through being fully VP equipped but back 6 months ago when I split would have been in this 5% your talking about.I think the real issue is not, Bruisers are broken, we need more dps, we need more tanking ability. The real issue is “SOE DO YOU GIVE A XXXX ABOUT US”The lack of any direct feedback makes us all feel 1 or 3 different ways.They don’t care how we feel about our classThey don’t know how we feel about our classOr they don’t know what to do with our class.I think a lot of the frustration levels we all have at different times could be very easily fixed by a simple.We recognize there are problems, there is no easy fix, but we are working to balance things up.How hard would that be?Personally I love having a class that you have to be very good at to justify a raid spot. I hate the fact that a dirge or illusionist can get into most raids regardless of their ability. I love the fact that there are very few players good enough to be end game raiding Bruisers.I don’t love the fact that SOE seems to think they can ignore an entire class with no feedback and expect us to grin and bare it.</blockquote>Welcome back Greavous! There has been a serious lack of cocky/better than thou bruisers lately.It took a year or more but SoE may have talked me into switching sides.

Goldburg

11-07-2008, 06:58 AM

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>You see right there tells me you do not even fully understand the potential of the class you cry about every single day. Shake off is HUGE. If you cast it on a tank and they use theirs to overwrite you you shoudl step up and say something to them. Here's a free lesson in utility from Crabbok: Avoiding for the Main Tank. On any given raid, there shoudl be at least 2 classes avoiding for the main tank. One should be the main tank Templar, using shield ally. This can easily block 10-15% of the hits that woudl have normally gone through. Next should be another fighter. Brawlers are good for this, as is a paladin, with AA's for block. If you are the one who will use your avoid on the main tank, first you need to let him know that you have your avoid on him. Next, you want to make sure you stay within range of the main tank. As a bruiser, you will want to watch your maintained buff bar for Retribution of stone, as you will occasinally riposte for the MT, triggering a stoneskin. When this happens you should intercede on the MT, as it will consume your stoneskin and deal no damage to you. On a harder fight, you will want to have the most avoidance gear you can have on and be in defensive stance to maximize your avoidance for the main tank. Using items with uncontested avoid also help greatly. If you stay in defensive, and stay in range, (close enough to hit intercede), you should find that you have avoided 20-35% of the hits that would have normally gone through to the tank. </blockquote>I realize this may in fact be a necroed thread however I read it through and have a question for Crabbok.Did you raid in EQ 1 by chance? The reason I ask is simply this. I realize by everything you said you do on a typical raid that it is in fact a "ghetto rampage tank" situation between you and a Templar.In case everyone here is not familiar with rampage let me give a short explanation and also explain why this mechanic alone could help the brawler class.You see in most cases each raid boss had what was called rampage. Rampage is simply the 2nd person on the hate list which recieves spike damage for being 2nd on hate. This mechanic was in place for a few reasons. Primarly dps had to be consistant however if they went overkill rampage killed them pretty much instantly. In order for a rampage tank to effectively maintain the spot he/she had to usually pull the raid mob to the MT or the raid had to wait for both the MT and Ramp Tank to sufficently have aggro. The rampage tank was also the snap aggro tank in case the MT went down for whatever reason until he/she could be rezzed or another MT put in place. Rampage requires attentive raid dps and tanks working together for aggro control.Now you might be saying to yourself why would this help our class? It's quite simple, if the mechanic is setup correctly we as "avoidance tanks" would fit the role perfectly being able to avoid much of the rampage dmg thus being the easier to heal rampage tank. We have utilities in place to help with this such as stoneskin, still using intercede on the MT which should add slightly to our hate gain if this mechanic were in place as well as stun removal ( clear mind). With the increased tanking abilities we are getting in TSO combined with a few other tweaks this would solidify our niche tanking position we desperately need in raids. It would take us from being unwanted to absolutely needed.

Pnaxx

11-08-2008, 11:26 AM

<cite>Brannigan@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it’s because they fail to deem it necessary to have any meaningful dialog with the bruiser community Pnaxx. I love the changes and I love the Bruiser class above all others. But I think that any impartial reader of any class forums would recognize a distinct lack of interest in communicating with this particular class and the appearance of no credible go-to person representing us inside the development team.<cite>Brannigan@Blackburrow wrote:</cite></blockquote>That I DO agree with. The communication has been very poor. I ranted about this some months ago and was left with Shut the flook up by my peers here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Quicksilver74

11-08-2008, 01:11 PM

<cite>Goldburg wrote:</cite><blockquote>I realize this may in fact be a necroed thread however I read it through and have a question for Crabbok.Did you raid in EQ 1 by chance? The reason I ask is simply this. I realize by everything you said you do on a typical raid that it is in fact a "ghetto rampage tank" situation between you and a Templar.In case everyone here is not familiar with rampage let me give a short explanation and also explain why this mechanic alone could help the brawler class.You see in most cases each raid boss had what was called rampage. Rampage is simply the 2nd person on the hate list which recieves spike damage for being 2nd on hate. This mechanic was in place for a few reasons. Primarly dps had to be consistant however if they went overkill rampage killed them pretty much instantly. In order for a rampage tank to effectively maintain the spot he/she had to usually pull the raid mob to the MT or the raid had to wait for both the MT and Ramp Tank to sufficently have aggro. The rampage tank was also the snap aggro tank in case the MT went down for whatever reason until he/she could be rezzed or another MT put in place. Rampage requires attentive raid dps and tanks working together for aggro control.Now you might be saying to yourself why would this help our class? It's quite simple, if the mechanic is setup correctly we as "avoidance tanks" would fit the role perfectly being able to avoid much of the rampage dmg thus being the easier to heal rampage tank. We have utilities in place to help with this such as stoneskin, still using intercede on the MT which should add slightly to our hate gain if this mechanic were in place as well as stun removal ( clear mind). With the increased tanking abilities we are getting in TSO combined with a few other tweaks this would solidify our niche tanking position we desperately need in raids. It would take us from being unwanted to absolutely needed.</blockquote>As far as the rampage tank thing, that sounds cool. I Didn't raid very much in EQ1, I was justr a casual player for a few years there.