Casting Order

[Wluil]

Has anyone ever figured out our "best in class" casting order? <div></div><div>I've gotten it down to one I'm happy with. Though I still wind up getting to a point where all my relevant debuffs are running and all my CA/Spells are down for about 3-5 seconds. I'm wondering if someone has a good chain where there's always something up next. Also, I should say I'm using the Twelve Tone which I proc early in my chain.</div><div></div><div>Right now, here's my chain (as I try to remember it not being in front of my hotkeys)</div><div></div><div>Pre Pull:</div><div>a) Perfection of the Maestro</div><div>b) Jester's Cap (self)</div><div></div><div>Post Pull:</div><div>1. Bright Blade</div><div>2. Depressing Chant</div><div>3. Bump</div><div>4. Night Strike</div><div>5. Chaos Anthem</div><div>6. Spell Rebuff</div><div>7. Reverberating Shrill</div><div>8. Devigorating Descant</div><div>9. Thunderous Overture</div><div>10. Ceremonial Blade</div><div>11. Painful Lamentations</div><div>12. Dispirited Processional </div><div></div><div>After that initial run, I start back with Bright Blade which has refreshed by then and start mashing anything that happens to be up with the most damaging attacks having priority. With jester's caps being rotated in as necessary well.</div><div></div><div>Edit: I can't count to 12 apparently.</div>

[Galim]

<p>No tap essence?</p><p> I hit as many ranged debuffs (e.g. Depressing Chant) as I can before the mob has closed, only worrying about Bright Blade when the mob is in position and Im behind it.  to wait until me and the mob is positioned before starting my cast order is a waste of precious debuffing seconds...particulary seeing as, with PotM up, the debuffs are scoring DPS points.</p><p>Also, you would be better hitting JC on the Brig on pull, cast PotM straight after the Brig cap, then hitting self-cap when it comes back up again.  As far as raid dps goes, capping yourself for any other reason than to shorten recast on potm is a waste.</p><p>On the other hand, capping the brig pre-pull will reap big rewards.  With no immunities, hit Brig JC, PotM pre-pull.  Do all your usual debuffs/DDs, then next on your Cap list is yourself - you will have lots of time to cap yourself before Maestro runs out.  After that I hit wizzys/assassins/warlocks in that order.  Or on some mobs hit MT templar first for the AE Block.</p>

[Banditman]

Also, while PotM is running, I try to be sure I get all of my abilities that are classified as spells cast.  I move CA based abilities down in my order until PotM expires.

[Wluil]

<cite>Galimir wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>No tap essence?</p><p> I hit as many ranged debuffs (e.g. Depressing Chant) as I can before the mob has closed, only worrying about Bright Blade when the mob is in position and Im behind it.  to wait until me and the mob is positioned before starting my cast order is a waste of precious debuffing seconds...particulary seeing as, with PotM up, the debuffs are scoring DPS points.</p><p>Also, you would be better hitting JC on the Brig on pull, cast PotM straight after the Brig cap, then hitting self-cap when it comes back up again.  As far as raid dps goes, capping yourself for any other reason than to shorten recast on potm is a waste.</p><p>On the other hand, capping the brig pre-pull will reap big rewards.  With no immunities, hit Brig JC, PotM pre-pull.  Do all your usual debuffs/DDs, then next on your Cap list is yourself - you will have lots of time to cap yourself before Maestro runs out.  After that I hit wizzys/assassins/warlocks in that order.  Or on some mobs hit MT templar first for the AE Block.</p></blockquote>Sadly we don't have a standard Brig, except for when we do PR at which point it's a bit of a different mess since the brig doesn't hit dispatch until the adds are down. Yeah, we're still tinkering around in T1... VS is giving us fits :p What I listed above was the general SoH trash fun.

[Scar]

I'd move Depressing Chant and Spell Rebuff up higher in the order, you want every debuff active that you can get before you start doing damage (within reason).In a typical pull I'll start stealthed, then1. Night Strike (lowering Int to reduce spell damage)2. Depressing Chant (killing their mental resist, get this Mastered as soon as you can afford it)3. Bright Blade (magic resist debuff)4. Spell Rebuff (more magic debuff)5. Draining Incursion6. Lucky Break (HO starter)6. Vexing Verses (HO opener and dropping their defense)7. Reverberating Shrill (HO ender)8. Chaos Anthem (if the fight will be long enough or I really need the Wis debuff)9. Devigorating Descant and Dispirited Processional if and only if the fight will be long10. Ceremonial Blade11. Thunderous Overture12. Tap Essence (if nothing better has refreshed or for some reason I'm running low on power)and typically by this point some abilties have refreshed and I go back to them. Add in Bump and more Night Strikes as the fight progresses.In my experience Painful Lamentations takes too long to cast to fit it in normally unless you're fighting a linked encounter, where it would be a better choice. In your typical 100 MPH instance fights however you need to use fast attacks.Of course, if you've cast PotM then you want to do Spell Rebuff, Bellow, Devigorating Descant, Dispirited Processional, Chaos Anthem, Painful Lamentations and Sonic Interference (AA ability), especially if it's a linked encounter. While the utility of some of those things is questionable, their ability to proc PotM is not.There's no reason not to try and mix Heroic Opportunities into your attack routine, it's free stuns, buffs and damage and we can do them twice as fast as any other class. Since finding a group with the inclination and coordination to try and cooperate on them is rare, I typically try and start and end a Scout HO instantly before some other group ability affects it.

[aelder~]

<p>If my math is notionally correct (let me hear it if I am wrong), Draining Incursion & Tap Essence (and Painful Lamentations on single mobs) should be left on the shelf.  With a decent group set up, you are likely to do more auto-attack damage during the cast time.  I only hit them if everything else is down and I see a bunch of melee damage fly that looks like a primary and secondary swing just landed.</p><p>Cheers,</p><p>Aelder</p>

[peepshow]

<p>I agree with Painful and Tap essence, but I'm not sure about Draining ?</p><p>On single mobs I pretty muc use everything other than my Painful spell, and only cast Tap essence when everything else is down.</p><p>But Draining sure is a part of my cast order.</p>

[Sferoflex]

<p>I use Draining Incursion as part of one of my two macros for HO chains.</p><p>If nothing else it has a chance to get my hit rate up with that little buff "Swindlers Gift" it gives you.</p>

[Ujioh]

<p>Ya, a few things.  I'm not so sure about a few pieces of these posts.  There is definitely some useful information, and I'll be trying out some new things based on this.</p><p>But a few things to point out (observations)...</p><p>You can't just look at what CA or spell has max damage and order them like that.  You need to take into account casting time, i.e. on the combat arts, it's MUCH faster than spells.  With that said, you definitely SHOULD NOT leave night strike or draining incursion out of the mix.  I agree that tap essense and painful lamenations is likely not worth the time spent casting, especially PL with the long casting time, your regular auto attack primary/secondary weapon damage will do more DPS.  In summary, what I do is plug all these into Excel (the #'s will vary depending on your STR and INT stats whether its a CA or spell) and then plug in the casting time, and then divide average dmg by the casting time.  If you're trying to do DPS, another ability to look at is the CLAW you get as a TRADITION.</p><p>The other thing to point out, is I'm not so sure about Thunderous Overture.  Again, if you use the above method to calculate average DPS over time, it comes in worse than Tap when you consider that.  But all bets are off when you throw up POTM...then you're getting all the extra procs from Precise Note and many of these debuffs, spells become worthwhile.  I just wouldn't be casting Tap, TO, or PL when POTM is not up.  If you're in the right groups and your DPS, haste, melee crit, etc. are all jacked up nicely, as well as good weapons, you'll be AA'ing for more than these are worth.</p><p>Lastly, I'll probably get jumped for even thinking about DPS as a trouby.  But to contradict what a few people said at the beginning, and focusing JC and such on brigs or casters, etc.  Yes, this is important.  It's really our role to make everyone else better, however there's no reason you can cycle all this stuff correctly and be putting out 2-2.5K yourself.  What I still haven't figured out how to do good yet, is to time all of this just right so autoattacks and such are hitting just right and timing spells.  And I do like the order Loremaster gave for the most part, other than leaving out the highest DPS CA we have (sinister strike master strike - if you're killing a mob you can use it on) and Ceremonial Blade ends up 2nd to Night Strike when looking at 'real DPS calculation'....unless I'm calc'ing some stuff wrong, especially on the arts that have like 2 separate damages, for example Ceremonial Blade ( like inflicts 705 - 991 mental dmg and 428 - 714 mental dmg).  The other thing I'm not quite sure of, is whether INT (and spell crits help these particular CA), because the STR stat appears to affect the dmg when you highlight and look at the spell.  But I'll need to start testing the actual after the fact hits on the mob.</p><p>Let's keep this going though, going back and forth and figuring out how to get better is always a good thing.</p>

[Inggy]

<p><cite>Ujioh wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The other thing I'm not quite sure of, is whether INT (and spell crits help these particular CA), because the STR stat appears to affect the dmg when you highlight and look at the spell. </p></blockquote><p>Str affect AA and CA's, Int only affects your spells and 25% of power pool, Agi is 75%.  I do not believe that Spell Crit affects CA's at all.</p><p>I'm of the same oppinion, I cast Thunderous in my rotation but because of its cast time vs damage I will wait till I AA before starting that cast.  Reverberating Shrill hits harder and takes much less time to cast.  Shrill for me will almost always generate more DPS than Thunderous, at least on my parse history.</p>

[Terabithi]

<p>whelp. my two cents.</p><p>Here's what I do with a tough (not heroic) mob. (This is a NON-POTM scenario)</p><p>I pull with the stifle double-shot. This always causes me to autoattack ranged once before the mob gets to me.</p><p>When the mob gets to me, I initiate a HO, hit cheap shot, run around and use the side-attack which lowers spell-res.</p><p>I then use my shrill-line spell to complete the HO. I follow it up with a quick-casting tap song.</p><p>The mob now takes a renewed interest, and I shield-bash it, hit stealth, and THEN I hit the stealth-attack.</p><p>I start another HO, hit the snare/spell res lowerer, and then the double-attack combat art to complete the HO.</p><p>I start another HO, hit the def lowering song, then complete the HO with the quick strike line attack.</p><p>My cheap shot is back, so I repeat the cycle. The shield bash step is only good once, I replace that step with assorted random chaos. Meanwhile, through this cycle, I always hit my thunderous song when I can.</p><p>I personally find that my auto-attack seems to come in at the end of each phase, and I double attack on most of them.</p><p>I keep the mez and evac ready for emergencies. You will noticed that I skipped all sorts of things in our bag of tricks, and I will sprinkle them into this format where necessary, but honestly, this is handling yellow ^ mobs in RoK just fine.</p><p>If a mob is extra-hard, I'll of course POTM, and spam my spells until it expires, while stunning as I can.</p><p>With heroics, I use mez a ton, while healing with our healing song, and hitting the mob in short bursts with spells over a distance, and debuffing whilst mezzed. works GREAT as long as the mez lands.</p><p>*shrug* kinda boring, but it's served me well so far.</p><p>--Evander Everlasting, 68 Troubador of Kithicor.</p>

[Sferoflex]

<p>Painful Lamentations is used most effectively on single targets on the pull, start casting it as your tank is moving toward the target.</p><p>On multi target encounters I cast it directly after PotM, followed by my AE debuffs. I can usually squeeze in PL twice during a PotM. Also dont forget Mighty Bellow, its insta cast and is basically free DPS while PotM is up</p><p>Thunderous Overture really shouldn't take more that a second to cast, what makes it useful is the lower recast that it has. It should be used whenever it's up to get the most of it.</p><p>My HO chains are macros that consist of Draining Incursion + Vexing Verses and Ceremonial Blade + Snare.</p>

[Ujioh]

<p>Well the problem with Thunderous Overature is this, it's not just a second...it's actually roughly 1.74 seconds (give or take time depending on what stuff you have to reduce timers).  That's A LOT of time.  Depending on your haste, weapon delays, etc....that's getting close into auto attack type range.  It only does 800-1500 mental damage (give or take depending on A3, M1, etc.) and depending on your weapons you should be doing a combined 750-2500 every couple of seconds in that same time.  Now I do agree that if you time it in between auto attacks, and ESPECIALLY if you have POTM, by all means hit it, but not sure about that.</p><p>Also, thanks for the solo info/spec., all my notes were in reference to GROUP/RAID scenario, so that's why there's no references to crazy HO's, shield blocks, etc.  I'll have to give that stuff a shot though.</p>

[Liyle]

<p>I have to disagree that JC is good for nothing more than PotM. I always want Turnstrike up again ASAP as well when I'm on a raid. There are few things more advantageous than being able to stay in close during an AoE.</p><p>My casting order is probably a bit different than some. Usually I start with the classic JC on Brig before the pull (might as well), then I go to magic debuff macros/magic debuffs on the pull as fast as possible, PotM, then Chaos Anthem. I like to have as much lift on the things that follow as possible. I hold back PotM a little so that my mages don't self destruct. Dead mages don't produce any DPS whatsoever and I don't want them firing their big guns too early for fear they'll waste the PotM boost. Also, PotM isn't benign. It has a proc that I don't want the chance of going off too soon on the pull. If I know there will be an early AoE I work in Turnstrike and JC on me as well. Unlike a lot of folks I save Blade Dance for the final stages of a difficult fight, letting the Fury cast Tortoise Shell early and often (I watch and give him a JC if it's up as soon as TS goes off) which has a shorter recast. IMHO here's nothing worse than getting close to the end and failing.</p>

[Thoral]

<p><cite>Liyle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have to disagree that JC is good for nothing more than PotM. I always want Turnstrike up again ASAP as well when I'm on a raid. There are few things more advantageous than being able to stay in close during an AoE.</p><p>My casting order is probably a bit different than some. Usually I start with the classic JC on Brig before the pull (might as well), then I go to magic debuff macros/magic debuffs on the pull as fast as possible, PotM, then Chaos Anthem. I like to have as much lift on the things that follow as possible. I hold back PotM a little so that my mages don't self destruct. Dead mages don't produce any DPS whatsoever and I don't want them firing their big guns too early for fear they'll waste the PotM boost. Also, PotM isn't benign. It has a proc that I don't want the chance of going off too soon on the pull. If I know there will be an early AoE I work in Turnstrike and JC on me as well. Unlike a lot of folks I save Blade Dance for the final stages of a difficult fight, letting the Fury cast Tortoise Shell early and often (I watch and give him a JC if it's up as soon as TS goes off) which has a shorter recast. IMHO here's nothing worse than getting close to the end and failing.</p></blockquote><p>I've noticed that I can get off another PotM during the fight if I cap myself and use PotM early.  I can see the benefits of what you say here, but I'd like to see others' input on whether a much quicker reuse of PotM outweighs the things you've said here.</p>

[Kulaf]

<p><cite>Wluil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Has anyone ever figured out our "best in class" casting order? <div></div><div>I've gotten it down to one I'm happy with. Though I still wind up getting to a point where all my relevant debuffs are running and all my CA/Spells are down for about 3-5 seconds. I'm wondering if someone has a good chain where there's always something up next. Also, I should say I'm using the Twelve Tone which I proc early in my chain.</div><div></div><div>Right now, here's my chain (as I try to remember it not being in front of my hotkeys)</div><div></div><div>Pre Pull:</div><div>a) Perfection of the Maestro</div><div>b) Jester's Cap (self)</div><div></div><div>Post Pull:</div><div>1. Bright Blade</div><div>2. Depressing Chant</div><div>3. Bump</div><div>4. Night Strike</div><div>5. Chaos Anthem</div><div>6. Spell Rebuff</div><div>7. Reverberating Shrill</div><div>8. Devigorating Descant</div><div>9. Thunderous Overture</div><div>10. Ceremonial Blade</div><div>11. Painful Lamentations</div><div>12. Dispirited Processional </div><div></div><div>After that initial run, I start back with Bright Blade which has refreshed by then and start mashing anything that happens to be up with the most damaging attacks having priority. With jester's caps being rotated in as necessary well.</div><div></div><div>Edit: I can't count to 12 apparently.</div></blockquote><p>I would change a few things: (Assuming raiding here not grouping)</p><p>Pre pull</p><p>a) JC a Brigand</p><p>b) Potm</p><p>Pull</p><p>c) Stifling Missle</p><p>d) Depressing Chant</p><p>e) Spell Rebuff</p><p>f) JC self before PotM drops</p><p>Fight</p><p>1) Rythem Blade</p><p>2) Bump</p><p>3) Night Strike</p><p>4) Bright Blade</p><p>etc. etc.</p>

[Inggy]

<p><cite>Thoral wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Liyle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I've noticed that I can get off another PotM during the fight if I cap myself and use PotM early.  I can see the benefits of what you say here, but I'd like to see others' input on whether a much quicker reuse of PotM outweighs the things you've said here.</blockquote></blockquote><p>On pull when the mob is nearly to us I JC one of the players in my rotation,  player is determined by who's not imune and who is best choice for that encounter.</p><p>Once the mob is here I hit PotM unless it is a mob with a damage shield/procs then I will wait for several seconds so the defiler can get in some debuffs w/o proc'n damage. Nothing like fearing your MT Defiler off into never never land on say Byzola. Then I start my rotation with Chaos, debuffs, and damage rotation and yes I debuff trash mobs.  Every other PotM I JC myself just prior to its termination.</p><p>We run with 2-3 troubs so most times PotM is up thoughout the fight with usually every 3 fights PotM will be on cool down and we can only get in one for that fight. During this PotM cool-down I usually can get in JC on 2 players before a mob is dead otherwise on trash its one JC per mob.</p><p>I only run BD spec for the one or two named that we find it helpful, not because its required.</p><p>O</p>

[Thoral]

<p>If I cap the brigand before the pull and then hit POTM, my cap won't be up in time to cap myself before POTM wears off.  Are you letting some time pass between your brigand cap and our PotM, speeding up your cap somehow, or extending the duration of your POTM?  I'm only 77 with 100 AAs, so I don't know all the intricacies of a full AA distribution.</p>

[soulljah]

<p><cite>Ujioh wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well the problem with Thunderous Overature is this, it's not just a second...it's actually roughly 1.74 seconds (give or take time depending on what stuff you have to reduce timers).  That's A LOT of time.  Depending on your haste, weapon delays, etc....that's getting close into auto attack type range.  It only does 800-1500 mental damage (give or take depending on A3, M1, etc.) and depending on your weapons you should be doing a combined 750-2500 every couple of seconds in that same time.  Now I do agree that if you time it in between auto attacks, and ESPECIALLY if you have POTM, by all means hit it, but not sure about that.</p><p>Also, thanks for the solo info/spec., all my notes were in reference to GROUP/RAID scenario, so that's why there's no references to crazy HO's, shield blocks, etc.  I'll have to give that stuff a shot though.</p></blockquote><p>Thunderous overture should always be down you want to use this spell as often as possible.....As for it hitting for 800-1500 errr i must of missed something, are you not talking about the t8 version? The damage is almost double that and can crit for 5k+</p>

[Inggy]

<p><cite>Thoral wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If I cap the brigand before the pull and then hit POTM, my cap won't be up in time to cap myself before POTM wears off.  Are you letting some time pass between your brigand cap and our PotM, speeding up your cap somehow, or extending the duration of your POTM?  I'm only 77 with 100 AAs, so I don't know all the intricacies of a full AA distribution.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not sure I know what you mean, if you JC someone on pull and hit PotM when JC cooldown ends JC yourself.  Potm will end a few seconds later.  PotM with AA's is 33 seconds iirc, JC is 25 seconds, that leaves you a bit of wiggle room.</p><p>O</p>

[Inggy]

<p><cite>soulljah wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ujioh wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well the problem with Thunderous Overature is this, it's not just a second...it's actually roughly 1.74 seconds (give or take time depending on what stuff you have to reduce timers).  That's A LOT of time.  Depending on your haste, weapon delays, etc....that's getting close into auto attack type range.  It only does 800-1500 mental damage (give or take depending on A3, M1, etc.) and depending on your weapons you should be doing a combined 750-2500 every couple of seconds in that same time.  Now I do agree that if you time it in between auto attacks, and ESPECIALLY if you have POTM, by all means hit it, but not sure about that.</p><p>Also, thanks for the solo info/spec., all my notes were in reference to GROUP/RAID scenario, so that's why there's no references to crazy HO's, shield blocks, etc.  I'll have to give that stuff a shot though.</p></blockquote><p>Thunderous overture should always be down you want to use this spell as often as possible.....As for it hitting for 800-1500 errr i must of missed something, are you not talking about the t8 version? The damage is almost double that and can crit for 5k+</p></blockquote><p>This is a matter of style.  Thunderous does hit well but Shrill will hit and crit for much more with a much faster cast.</p><p>Thunderous for me almost always is 5-7 whereas Shrill is usually 3-4 on on my parse during raids.  My reasoning is this; I can cast Shrill and a CA or two and still keep my AA timing whereas if I hit Thunderous I have to "wait" till I AA before starting that cast w/o missing an AA.  Groups being what they are you can never rely on having haste in that situation Thunderous usually places higher on my parse.  </p><p>Whether in a raid or group I have ACT running just so I can hear my AAs and "try" to keep my rhythm.  Without ACT running I find myself switching to mage mode (raided as a Necro for years) and forget to AA, DPS on a bard is not blindly mashing buttons.</p><p>I've grouped/raided with various Troubs in different guilds where the reverse on Thunderous was his/her norm. Its much the same as asking someone else what their cast order is, no two players are using exactly the same cast order and yet most competent players IME in the same gear/spell quality will hit aproximately the same DPS.</p><p>I'm not a Troub expert by any means as I've only been playing one for about 6 months.  The only real advise I can recommend for a workable spell order is to hit a training dummy and/or wall for a few hours and see what <span style="text-decoration: underline;">works for you</span>.</p><p>Hope this helps,</p>

[Thoral]

<p>I need a few more AA's to get my PotM maxed and to get that end-line ability that extends/reduces the duration of everything.  Its frustrating learning to raid with a new class when I don't have the tools yet.  10 more AA's and I'll be much better off.  Thanks for the info.</p><p>Question number 2.  Why cap the brigand?  His initial set of debuffs won't go in any faster, and won't they be back up by the time their durations wear off?</p><p>Thanks!</p>

[soulljah]

<p><cite>Onoes@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>soulljah wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ujioh wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well the problem with Thunderous Overature is this, it's not just a second...it's actually roughly 1.74 seconds (give or take time depending on what stuff you have to reduce timers).  That's A LOT of time.  Depending on your haste, weapon delays, etc....that's getting close into auto attack type range.  It only does 800-1500 mental damage (give or take depending on A3, M1, etc.) and depending on your weapons you should be doing a combined 750-2500 every couple of seconds in that same time.  Now I do agree that if you time it in between auto attacks, and ESPECIALLY if you have POTM, by all means hit it, but not sure about that.</p><p>Also, thanks for the solo info/spec., all my notes were in reference to GROUP/RAID scenario, so that's why there's no references to crazy HO's, shield blocks, etc.  I'll have to give that stuff a shot though.</p></blockquote><p>Thunderous overture should always be down you want to use this spell as often as possible.....As for it hitting for 800-1500 errr i must of missed something, are you not talking about the t8 version? The damage is almost double that and can crit for 5k+</p></blockquote><p>This is a matter of style.  Thunderous does hit well but Shrill will hit and crit for much more with a much faster cast.</p><p>Thunderous for me almost always is 5-7 whereas Shrill is usually 3-4 on on my parse during raids.  My reasoning is this; I can cast Shrill and a CA or two and still keep my AA timing whereas if I hit Thunderous I have to "wait" till I AA before starting that cast w/o missing an AA.  Groups being what they are you can never rely on having haste in that situation Thunderous usually places higher on my parse.  </p><p>Whether in a raid or group I have ACT running just so I can hear my AAs and "try" to keep my rhythm.  Without ACT running I find myself switching to mage mode (raided as a Necro for years) and forget to AA, DPS on a bard is not blindly mashing buttons.</p><p>I've grouped/raided with various Troubs in different guilds where the reverse on Thunderous was his/her norm. Its much the same as asking someone else what their cast order is, no two players are using exactly the same cast order and yet most competent players IME in the same gear/spell quality will hit aproximately the same DPS.</p><p>I'm not a Troub expert by any means as I've only been playing one for about 6 months.  The only real advise I can recommend for a workable spell order is to hit a training dummy and/or wall for a few hours and see what <span style="text-decoration: underline;">works for you</span>.</p><p>Hope this helps,</p></blockquote><p>You forget to mention that overture is on a  5 sec recast timer, this is its biggest benefit, so generally this will always end up higher on my overall dps then shrill.</p><p>You shouldn't be waiting for your auto attack after u cast it, as a bard timing your auto attacks will generally lower your dps, there have been numerous posts on this subject over the past few years. But to each his own i guess, so whatever works for you like you mentioned.</p>

[Liyle]

<p>Correct me if I'm wrong, but JC speeds up all recast timers for 30 seconds (or therebouts) so it doesn't matter if PotM is still running or not... unless JC is affected by INT in some way I'm not aware of. Far as I know JC works at any time, even out of combat. If this isn't the case someone post (if you are sure about what you are saying, that is.) I use JC on myself in between fights at every opportunity to speed up recast for Blade Dance and so on that have 10 min timers. I know some people think it cuts all timers in half that are cast for the next 30 seconds, but all you have to do is cast any 10-minute timer with JC to see this isn't the case. It doesn't cut it to 5 minutes, it just speeds up the regular 10 minute timer during that 30 second interval.</p>

[Kulaf]

<p><cite>Thoral wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Question number 2.  Why cap the brigand?  His initial set of debuffs won't go in any faster, and won't they be back up by the time their durations wear off?</p><p>Thanks!</p></blockquote><p>Basically for Dispached:</p><p><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Dispatched">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Dispatched</a></p>

[Kulaf]

<p><cite>Liyle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Correct me if I'm wrong, but JC speeds up all recast timers for 30 seconds (or therebouts) so it doesn't matter if PotM is still running or not... unless JC is affected by INT in some way I'm not aware of. Far as I know JC works at any time, even out of combat. If this isn't the case someone post (if you are sure about what you are saying, that is.) I use JC on myself in between fights at every opportunity to speed up recast for Blade Dance and so on that have 10 min timers. I know some people think it cuts all timers in half that are cast for the next 30 seconds, but all you have to do is cast any 10-minute timer with JC to see this isn't the case. It doesn't cut it to 5 minutes, it just speeds up the regular 10 minute timer during that 30 second interval.</p></blockquote><p>Jesters doesn't function like that.  While it is in effect on you all recast timers that are set during that duration will have their times reduced.  Some abilities set the recast when they are clicked.....and some when they expire.  PotM sets its recast delay on expiration.  So basically you want to Jesters someone else.....then hit PotM......then Jesters yourself before PotM drops to set its recast delay.</p>

[Ujioh]

<p>OK Soul.  I think we're on a different page here and need to get on the same page before I or you understand what the other is suggesting.</p><p>In regards to your question, yes I am referring to the LEVEL 78 (<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> Thunderous Overature.  Unfortunately I only have that in ADEPT3 at the moment, so it is slightly less powerful than it could be.  However, here is what mine shows with my current configuration (INT), etc.</p><p>CASTING: 1.74 seconds</p><p>RECAST: 5 seconds (we agree on this, it is quick, but what I don't agree on it, no matter how quick it is, the time it takes to cast this spell is VERY long, if you have high melee abilities, CA's, then I don't care how fast you can recast it, it takes very long)</p><p>Effects: Inflicts 792-1320 mental damage (where is the double damage and 5k crit you're talking about?, i can understand the chance to crit high, but I dont see how even a master would list this spell at 1300-2500 damage, that's simply not in the description).</p><p>Now to sum everything back up again, it looks like you're coming at this from a "how fast can I recast" perspective, which is good if you're trying to get back to "a good spell" and cast it again quickly.  But I'm coming at it from a mathematical (DPS) perspective.  How much damage CAN IT DO in a certain amount of time, therefore the true definition of damage, and not one that you can see directly in ACT mind you.  SO in this case, it's showing 792-1320, I usually average these numbers, but let's say even at max, it can do 1320, but it takes 1.74seconds so you doing 1320 damage in 1.74 seconds, or 1320/1.74 = 758.6 DPS, that's pretty weak.  Reverberating shril is 1278-2130 mental in 0.5 seconds or 2130/0.5 max DPS=4260, this is MUCH more efficient damage in the same period of time, so the quicker you can get back to that spell to cast it, the better.  The same goes for a LOT of the CA's and even your AA with weapons if you have the right stuff, cause all of those are CRITING too.  It sounds like you're just looking at ACT to see what's doing the most damage over all (I think they call it DPS because it just looks at total damage over some time and calls it DPS, which is also technically true) and OF course Thunderous Overature is going to show up high on the list because you can cast it again so fast and it's first on your list.  But in terms of putting out FAST and maximum DPS as often as possible I still think you want to focus on the ones that put out the best RAW DPS.</p><p>....or ...Everyone am I thinking about this all wrong?</p><p>I'm glad someone pointed out the timer deal with POTM checking on termination, I hadn't noticed that and was JC'ing prior to casting it.  I'll have to double check this (test it out), but that's a very useful thing if so....</p>

[Ujioh]

<p>Any other TROUBY spells that people have noticed timers checking RECAST on termination versus at the beginning, when they are cast? (besides POTM)?</p>

[Kulaf]

<p><cite>Ujioh wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>CASTING: 1.74 seconds</p><p>RECAST: 5 seconds (we agree on this, it is quick, but what I don't agree on it, no matter how quick it is, the time it takes to cast this spell is VERY long, if you have high melee abilities, CA's, then I don't care how fast you can recast it, it takes very long)</p><p>Effects: Inflicts 792-1320 mental damage (where is the double damage and 5k crit you're talking about?, i can understand the chance to crit high, but I dont see how even a master would list this spell at 1300-2500 damage, that's simply not in the description).</p></blockquote><p>For me for Thunderous Overture (Master I):</p><p>Cast: 1.39 seconds</p><p>Recast: 4.6 seconds</p><p>Effects: Inflicts 1445 - 2162 mental damage on target.</p><p>That is of course with 5 points in Enhance: Thunderous Overture.</p><p>P.S. You have to be looking at Thunderous CHORUS......not Overture.  That is the only spell in the line close to the damage you are listing.</p>

[Pogopuschel]

<p><cite>Ujioh wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Any other TROUBY spells that people have noticed timers checking RECAST on termination versus at the beginning, when they are cast? (besides POTM)?</p></blockquote><p>Call of Guild Hall/Qeynos/Overlord <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Other than that, none.</p>

[Pogopuschel]

<p><cite>Ujioh wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>RECAST: 5 seconds (we agree on this, it is quick, but what I don't agree on it, no matter how quick it is, the time it takes to cast this spell is VERY long, if you have high melee abilities, CA's, then I don't care how fast you can recast it, it takes very long)</p><p>Effects: Inflicts 792-1320 mental damage (where is the double damage and 5k crit you're talking about?, i can understand the chance to crit high, but I dont see how even a master would list this spell at 1300-2500 damage, that's simply not in the description).</p><p>Now to sum everything back up again, it looks like you're coming at this from a "how fast can I recast" perspective, which is good if you're trying to get back to "a good spell" and cast it again quickly.  But I'm coming at it from a mathematical (DPS) perspective.  How much damage CAN IT DO in a certain amount of time, therefore the true definition of damage, and not one that you can see directly in ACT mind you.  SO in this case, it's showing 792-1320, I usually average these numbers, but let's say even at max, it can do 1320, but it takes 1.74seconds so you doing 1320 damage in 1.74 seconds, or 1320/1.74 = 758.6 DPS, that's pretty weak.  Reverberating shril is 1278-2130 mental in 0.5 seconds or 2130/0.5 max DPS=4260, this is MUCH more efficient damage in the same period of time, so the quicker you can get back to that spell to cast it, the better.  The same goes for a LOT of the CA's and even your AA with weapons if you have the right stuff, cause all of those are CRITING too.  It sounds like you're just looking at ACT to see what's doing the most damage over all (I think they call it DPS because it just looks at total damage over some time and calls it DPS, which is also technically true) and OF course Thunderous Overature is going to show up high on the list because you can cast it again so fast and it's first on your list.  But in terms of putting out FAST and maximum DPS as often as possible I still think you want to focus on the ones that put out the best RAW DPS.</p><p>....or ...Everyone am I thinking about this all wrong?</p></blockquote><p>As to Thunderous:</p><p>The damage is based on many factors. What is your INT? Spell mod? What debuffs are on the mob? Spell quality? Your Crit Modifier? Etc etc.For me, raid buffed I'm at 1200 INT, 300 spell mod (still room for improvement there!) M1 (roughly 15% more damage than the, Crit modifier 1.5 (First Shadow tree Troub end line and Bard end line), and with a Brigand in the raid I'll see 5k+ crits.</p><p>About raw DPS, you are correct except one thing: Procs are normalised to a base delay of 3s. Thundrous, in comparison to Shrill, will have a lot higher chance to proc e.g. your own Aria of Magic, or whatever other procs (sorcerers! illu!) you might have on you. Hence Thundrous is better than it looks at first glance. This is also the reason why many Troubs don't use Painful Lamentations on single target mobs, or have a too low priority for it.</p><p>How much you get out of spells/CAs is also depending on- your spell crit vs. CA crit/DA- your buffs and group setup- duration of the encounterthus the "ideal casting order" isn't so black&white to me.</p><p>In general though, I'd say your assertion is right for short fights (35s and lower). Fire the fast cast spells first, as they have a higher recast timer too. That way, you'll be able to squeeze em in again before the mob is dead.</p>

[Inggy]

<p><cite>Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ujioh wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>RECAST: 5 seconds (we agree on this, it is quick, but what I don't agree on it, no matter how quick it is, the time it takes to cast this spell is VERY long, if you have high melee abilities, CA's, then I don't care how fast you can recast it, it takes very long)</p><p>Effects: Inflicts 792-1320 mental damage (where is the double damage and 5k crit you're talking about?, i can understand the chance to crit high, but I dont see how even a master would list this spell at 1300-2500 damage, that's simply not in the description).</p><p>Now to sum everything back up again, it looks like you're coming at this from a "how fast can I recast" perspective, which is good if you're trying to get back to "a good spell" and cast it again quickly.  But I'm coming at it from a mathematical (DPS) perspective.  How much damage CAN IT DO in a certain amount of time, therefore the true definition of damage, and not one that you can see directly in ACT mind you.  SO in this case, it's showing 792-1320, I usually average these numbers, but let's say even at max, it can do 1320, but it takes 1.74seconds so you doing 1320 damage in 1.74 seconds, or 1320/1.74 = 758.6 DPS, that's pretty weak.  Reverberating shril is 1278-2130 mental in 0.5 seconds or 2130/0.5 max DPS=4260, this is MUCH more efficient damage in the same period of time, so the quicker you can get back to that spell to cast it, the better.  The same goes for a LOT of the CA's and even your AA with weapons if you have the right stuff, cause all of those are CRITING too.  It sounds like you're just looking at ACT to see what's doing the most damage over all (I think they call it DPS because it just looks at total damage over some time and calls it DPS, which is also technically true) and OF course Thunderous Overature is going to show up high on the list because you can cast it again so fast and it's first on your list.  But in terms of putting out FAST and maximum DPS as often as possible I still think you want to focus on the ones that put out the best RAW DPS.</p><p>....or ...Everyone am I thinking about this all wrong?</p></blockquote><p>As to Thunderous:</p><p>The damage is based on many factors. What is your INT? Spell mod? What debuffs are on the mob? Spell quality? Your Crit Modifier? Etc etc.For me, raid buffed I'm at 1200 INT, 300 spell mod (still room for improvement there!) M1 (roughly 15% more damage than the, Crit modifier 1.5 (First Shadow tree Troub end line and Bard end line), and with a Brigand in the raid I'll see 5k+ crits.</p><p>About raw DPS, you are correct except one thing: Procs are normalised to a base delay of 3s. Thundrous, in comparison to Shrill, will have a lot higher chance to proc e.g. your own Aria of Magic, or whatever other procs (sorcerers! illu!) you might have on you. Hence Thundrous is better than it looks at first glance. This is also the reason why many Troubs don't use Painful Lamentations on single target mobs, or have a too low priority for it.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">How much you get out of spells/CAs is also depending on- your spell crit vs. CA crit/DA- your buffs and group setup- duration of the encounterthus the "ideal casting order" isn't so black&white to me.</span></p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">In general though, I'd say your assertion is right for short fights (35s and lower). Fire the fast cast spells first, as they have a higher recast timer too. That way, you'll be able to squeeze em in again before the mob is dead.</span></p></blockquote><p>There ya go.  Trash fights you want to use fast big hits with longer recasts first.....well after you debuff.  Most of my fights I'm not producing DPS for 6-8 seconds because of debuffing/JC/PotM.  Normally I lead off Potm and our second Troub will follow if the mobs' HP is still 50% or so otherwise it's wastefull to use two PotMs. If I dropped the debuff etc I would produce a bit more DPS overall but then the raid overall will loose some DPS in turn.  Since my primary job is to buff and help produce DPS I don't mind loosing a few personal.</p><p>But after reading the Thunderous vs Shrill debate I went back to look at out last VP run.  A rather uninspired raid late in our evening.  We were using a new tank and chain pulling.</p><p>Merged trash;</p><p><a href="http://s420.photobucket.com/albums/pp281/Oyce_photos/Parses/?action=view&current=120908-trash.jpg">http://s420.photobucket.com/albums/...20908-trash.jpg</a></p><p><a href="http://s420.photobucket.com/albums/pp281/Oyce_photos/Parses/?action=view&current=120908-trash2.jpg">http://s420.photobucket.com/albums/...0908-trash2.jpg</a></p><p>Klutzen;</p><p><a href="http://s420.photobucket.com/albums/pp281/Oyce_photos/Parses/?action=view&current=Klutzen-1.jpg">http://s420.photobucket.com/albums/...t=Klutzen-1.jpg</a></p><p><a href="http://s420.photobucket.com/albums/pp281/Oyce_photos/Parses/?action=view&current=Klutzen-2.jpg">http://s420.photobucket.com/albums/...t=Klutzen-2.jpg</a></p><p>On Klutzen's fight I managed to get in one more Thunderous and it "just" out-parsed Shrill.  I cast Thunderous it while running into Klutzen pull position, since its a longer cast and it takes awhile to get to Klutzen, but otherwise Shrill flatly out-parsed and crit Thunderous per hit.  Even with this information I'm trying to work Thunderous in my cast routine because of it shorter recast.  I'll see if that produces any gains.</p><p>My group was Illy, Mystic, Assassin, Necro, Wiz.  Buffs I had was haste, Ro's, Toxins.  No temps, just a quick clear to get a new member an update.  My delay was 2.7, hit 2.88 on trash, and 3.00 on Klutzen (run in time and slight jousts for JC).</p><p>Was this a good DPS run?  Not really, raid DPS was pretty low and Klutzen was only abit over 105k.  Just selected this raid because I had just run it since posting and figured I'd double checking my previous statements.</p>

[soulljah]

<p><cite>Ujioh wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>OK Soul.  I think we're on a different page here and need to get on the same page before I or you understand what the other is suggesting.</p><p>In regards to your question, yes I am referring to the LEVEL 78 (<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> Thunderous Overature.  Unfortunately I only have that in ADEPT3 at the moment, so it is slightly less powerful than it could be.  However, here is what mine shows with my current configuration (INT), etc.</p><p>CASTING: 1.74 seconds</p><p>RECAST: 5 seconds (we agree on this, it is quick, but what I don't agree on it, no matter how quick it is, the time it takes to cast this spell is VERY long, if you have high melee abilities, CA's, then I don't care how fast you can recast it, it takes very long)</p><p>Effects: Inflicts 792-1320 mental damage (where is the double damage and 5k crit you're talking about?, i can understand the chance to crit high, but I dont see how even a master would list this spell at 1300-2500 damage, that's simply not in the description).</p></blockquote><p>Sorry im still not so sure why your Overture is so low, at master 1 mine is rougly listed at 1300-2200 (higher in raids when im int capped) . But yes I am fully fabled in RoK gear with a couple pieces of TSO gear.</p><p>So it's factoring in 10% extra spell damage from our mythical, 10% extra damage from bloodthirsty choker, and 8% extra spell damage from the new Void shard shoulders. Plus whatever my spell mod is. (which is pretty low i dont go out of my way for gear with +spell damage, all my gear is melee based, just the items that have it as a bonus like signet of betrayal)</p><p>Also do you have 5 points in overture in the sonics line in the troub tree? This also increases it's damage. This should be a must so you can get the increase to the duration of Perfection of Maestro.</p><p>High crits are generated from the things Uyaem mentioned</p>

[Ujioh]

<p>Nope it's defintely Thuderous Overature (Drumming is lvl 68, chorus is in the 50's).</p><p>This one shows level 78</p><p>Adept 3</p><p>Casting 1.74 seconds</p><p>recast 5.0 seconds</p><p>range up to 15 meters</p><p>Effects: inflicts 787 to 1312 mental damage on target.</p><p>Now...I don't have the bonus AA points in it, and it's not master.  The other thing is that I've been a melee focused trouby, so my ints only at 705, so I'm sure all of that has something to do with it.  But that's amazing that were 1k+ off...I guess I'll have to repsec, try a few different pieces of gear and play around with it.  Because I could see how that extra damage (in addition to procs off aria and POTM) could pump spell dps over combat.  I just couldn't see it with the latest path I had followed.</p>

[soulljah]

<p>Yeah you should definately have your sonics aa line completely full, this adds 10 secs to the duration of Maestro. Just curious but where are you spending points in the troub tree if not in this line?</p><p>Also the casting time of my Overture is 1.36 secs self buffed (once again this is from allegro and the sonics line, it not only adds damage but reduces casting time) , in raids it is 1.25 with the monk raidwide buff.</p><p>But yeah dont sacrifice melee gear for spell damage or spell crit gear.  Double attack and melee crit gear should be your first priority.</p>

[Ujioh]

<p>I'm not sure I understand this statement(below) about procs being normalized on base delay?</p><p>"About raw DPS, you are correct except one thing: Procs are normalised to a base delay of 3s. Thundrous, in comparison to Shrill, will have a lot higher chance to proc e.g. your own Aria of Magic, or whatever other procs (sorcerers! illu!) you might have on you. Hence Thundrous is better than it looks at first glance. This is also the reason why many Troubs don't use Painful Lamentations on single target mobs, or have a too low priority for it."</p><p>Also, does anyone know what the 'hollow aria' effect do on the lyrical bp?  It states that it improves proc chance on aria, but by how much, etc?  I'm debating on whether I should buy it yet or not.  I'm not that impressed with the (5) set benefit, so I'm sitting with 3 pieces ATM.  Might start looking at the good jewelry yet.</p><p>And lastly, I think the different in my TO and everyone else posting on here, is don't quite have mythical yet, I'm close...I dont have the bloodthirsty choker, I have the 5% melee crit one....I need about 400 more int to hit hardcarp, I'm only at ~800 or so softcap, and no master....so that probably adds up the differences...</p>

[Ujioh]

<p>OK.  So I still want to focus on melee gear over spell crit gear.  What would you say your order of priority is in terms of MODS?</p><p>DPS</p><p>melee crit</p><p>DA</p><p>spell crit</p><p>combat +</p><p>spell +</p><p>haste</p><p>...something like the above?  With all that said, and the fact that TO can be as good as everyone says, should I try banging it in there over the regular combat arts like sinister strike, night strike, ceremonial blade?  Or focus on spells and only spells when POTM is active, and then back to my theory on what puts out most DPS? with slower ones (DPS wise) following?  Ignore stuff like tap essence and painful lamentation unless circumstances permit? (i.e. aoe or mana needs)???</p>

[Ujioh]

<p>Oh I agree that sonics (POTM) is a must, the reason I don't have anything in that line atm is I'm a slacker and not maxed on AA's yet since update (only 151 so far), so in order to get to the full tier3 - bard line and 10% crit multipliers I had to pull somethin gout of the Troubador (TAB), so I just didn't spec down this yet...basically I've been playing around, nothing permanent.</p>

[Pogopuschel]

<p><cite>Ujioh wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>"About raw DPS, you are correct except one thing: Procs are normalised to a base delay of 3s. Thundrous, in comparison to Shrill, will have a lot higher chance to proc e.g. your own Aria of Magic, or whatever other procs (sorcerers! illu!) you might have on you. Hence Thundrous is better than it looks at first glance. This is also the reason why many Troubs don't use Painful Lamentations on single target mobs, or have a too low priority for it."</p></blockquote><p>That basically means that when a proc's description reads "2.0 times per minute" the percentage-chance of a proc goes up or down depending on the time it takes to cast the spell.</p><p>Assume you could cast a spell that takes 3s to cast, non-stop. You could cast it 20 times per minute. A proc chance of 2.0 would mean that it'll proc off every 10th cast (on average).Now we use a spell that takes 2s to cast. You could cast that one 30 times a minute, with a proc chance of 2.0 that means it would proc off every 15th cast.</p><p>All this wouldn't matter so much, but there is cast haste and our AA. A proc will always use the base delay. So when you have a spell that would take 3s to cast, but with AA and modifiers you can get it to 2s, you basically have the effect "every 10th cast" on a spell that you can cast 30 times a minute, and that's where you gain.</p><p>The effect seems small, but given the total amount of procs you generally have on you, raid-buffed, it needs to be considered.</p><blockquote><p>Also, does anyone know what the 'hollow aria' effect do on the lyrical bp?  It states that it improves proc chance on aria, but by how much, etc?  I'm debating on whether I should buy it yet or not.  I'm not that impressed with the (5) set benefit, so I'm sitting with 3 pieces ATM.  Might start looking at the good jewelry yet.</p></blockquote><p>It doesn't improve the proc chance of Aria. The wording is a bit unclear. What happens is that when you use Precision of the Mastro, it will increase the proc chance of all procs of the group (or raid with the mythical weapon) for its duration by 25% (the upgraded legendary BP even 33%). That effectively turns a 1.8/min proc into a 2.1/min, and the effect stacks with Dirge's "Luck of the Dirge" or Mystic's "Ancestry" and even CoB when they wear the breastplate too. Quite often, I see a 1.8/min proc chance as 2.6/min in a raid which is near cap.</p>

[Thoral]

<p>I've seen several posts saying melee DPS is better than ranged DPS for troubs.  Since I'm new to troubing, I have some questions about this.  I find that I'm using PotM in at least every other fight if not every fight.  While PotM is running, isn't it better to use spells to proc it?  It seems that between my debuffs and my spells, I have enough arts to keep cycling them for the duration of PotM.  During that time I could be standing close to use my melee autoattack or at range to use my ranged autoattack.</p><p>So, my question is are you all standing close while using spells, or are you using your melee arts instead of spells even though PotM is running?  Or, are you using spells for PotM and then ignoring spells once PotM wears off?</p><p>Oh, and just a tip that has helped me a great deal...create a macro that sends chat to some trash chat channel like mytrashchannel reading "Start two minute timer", and then create a trigger/timer combo in ACT that will tell you when the two minutes is up.  Use that when you cap your most important target so that you know exactly when you can cap them again.  It is very helpful to me when burning through trash.  I also have a two-minute timer on ACT on the spell text I get when cap is cast on me so that I know when I can cap myself again.</p><p>Thanks!</p>

[Ujioh]

<p>Thoral, I guess it's a matter of preference, but I still believe with the DPS coming off of your combat arts and the AA with good weapon pairs that you shouldn't mess with range.  I'm always at the back of the mob meleeing, especially if you use your sinister strike and bump/night strike.  You should be able to do a lot more DPS being close as opposed to range, even if you spec'd with the extra arrow hit AA.</p><p>In comments to your POTM/spell question, I think what people have been saying throughout the thread, and what I am going to start playing with is, 100% spell casting using reverberating shrill and thuderous overature when POTM (and ARIA) are up, and when POTM is down I'll go to CA & spells putting them in the best order for overall DPS with weapon procs timed in between as best as I can.</p><p>As for all the ACT infor, yes, lots of good stuff, I'm not too good with it yet, or the Profit UI stuff, but it's all looking pretty powerful so I'll have to give it a shot.  There is a add on for profit that shows JC timers too...</p>

[tbone7777]

Once you get some decent points in the tso tree, you will see overature and shrill doing very nice damage. Potm and jcap myself as the mob is being placed and the 2 above spells in the rotation asap, I jcap the brig on pull if the encounter is a hard one (this includes some but not all names) or when potm/ jcap (for myself) isnt up. When jcap is up i cap myself after potm so i can hopefully cap myself again before the next potm runs out. This allows for more potm's and much more raid dps. Because of immunity, you cant cap the brig every pull anyway, so maximize the time that potm is up.

[Kulaf]

<p><cite>Thoral wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've seen several posts saying melee DPS is better than ranged DPS for troubs.  Since I'm new to troubing, I have some questions about this.  I find that I'm using PotM in at least every other fight if not every fight.  While PotM is running, isn't it better to use spells to proc it?  It seems that between my debuffs and my spells, I have enough arts to keep cycling them for the duration of PotM.  During that time I could be standing close to use my melee autoattack or at range to use my ranged autoattack.</p><p>So, my question is are you all standing close while using spells, or are you using your melee arts instead of spells even though PotM is running?  Or, are you using spells for PotM and then ignoring spells once PotM wears off?</p><p>Oh, and just a tip that has helped me a great deal...create a macro that sends chat to some trash chat channel like mytrashchannel reading "Start two minute timer", and then create a trigger/timer combo in ACT that will tell you when the two minutes is up.  Use that when you cap your most important target so that you know exactly when you can cap them again.  It is very helpful to me when burning through trash.  I also have a two-minute timer on ACT on the spell text I get when cap is cast on me so that I know when I can cap myself again.</p><p>Thanks!</p></blockquote><p>Just off the top of my head I think we only have 4 CA's, one of which is stealthed attack and one is a ranged attack.  So when PotM is up in a raid situation I just fight as normal and hit abilities as they pop no matter if they are a CA or a spell.  When grouped there usually isn't time to worry about what to hit before things are dead anyway, hehe.</p>

[Eladia]

<p><span style="font-size: small;">Ignore this post, I'm starting a new thread <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p>

[aelder~]

<p>Regarding the 2x difference in damage on Thunderous Overture between 2 level 80 troubs, it is quite possible.  Have to take into account:</p><p>Lyrical Mastery (10%), Enhance TO AA x 5 (10%), Spell Damage Mod (mine = 395), INT (mine = 876), Adept III vs Master, Aroa of Magic with mythical (10%), Empowered Essence on gear (e.g., 8% on greater void shard shoulders, not sure on Mynzak shoulder pattern), and choker (if you got it)</p><p>I don't have the choker and use mantle of magnetism instead of shoulders with Empowered Essence (+100 spell mod > than 8% base damage for me), but my TO = 1523-2274 self buffed and that's with 3/5 AA in enhanced TO because I needed those points to get to end line in TSO.</p><p>Once you boost TO, its definitely worth it--epecially with PotM running.</p><p>Cheers,</p><p>Aelder</p>

[soulljah]

<p>How do u figure +100 damage is better for you than 8% base damage? With the void shoulders also having +3 MC and +3 SC they are far superior than our VP shoulders.</p>