Any Reason to Unshelve my Bruiser for SoO? [Archive]

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Scrappe

09-01-2008, 05:46 PM

My bruiser's long been relegated to shiney farmer, Call-of-the-Whatever spotter, and out-of-group alt-leveler. He was my raid main for about a year, but I shelved him long ago in favor of classes that get more dev attention. He's 80, has a 133 AAs I think? But he's still decked out in T7 fabled and masters. Heck, for the longest time, he had like 20 AAs that I hadn't even assigned. He has no T8 adept3's or gear, except for the 4% melee crit quested neckpiece (forgot the name). Don't see the point in upgrading him for what he's been relegated to.So, I'm just curious if anyone has heard anything, anything at all, that would make me raise an eyebrow on either brawler's SoO fate.

Quicksilver74

09-02-2008, 11:45 AM

Word around the campfire is that our raid buff is going to be upgraded to make us desireable in raids. Just a rumor at this point though.

evilgamer

09-02-2008, 03:04 PM

In other words, no.Unless you know some people you are not going to get into a hardcore raiding guid just by being a bruiser alone.Check out flames gamewide recruitment forum. Very little to no recruitment for brusiers.

Aull

09-02-2008, 03:27 PM

I would say if you truely enjoyed playing your bruiser then by all means do so. I for one enjoy my bruiser but I have finally given in to the fact that bruisers are not about to see any type of support or improvments any time soon that will make them have any grouping or raiding eye appeal. Far to many good/great suggestions have been laid out on this forum by very knowledgable bruisers and so far no responses or actions have been taken into account or commented on by any developer that I know of. If I have missed something then I apologize. So correct me someone if it has. Actually I don't think any fighter or class that has issues can expect to see any attention at all any time soon. I am not willing to get my hopes or expectations high for the bruiser class atm. I do wish that what Crabbok mentioned would happen but I cannot find any official postings for SOE about such a promising change and again I think it is only a rumor and nothing more.Again if you did have fun playing your bruiser then do it again. The bruiser class isn't broken but definately could use a tune up to get things working smoothly again instead of being a class that is neglected so bad when it comes to group/raid eye appeal.

Scrappe

09-04-2008, 02:15 PM

I did have fun playing him for a long time. But you can only be ignored for so long before youre calloused and your enjoyment's sapped. I would have quit entirely if I didnt find my necromancy side. I remember when they nerfed FD with that toggle recast thing. I had long since shelved my bruiser at that time, but it got me to thinking because it was so grievous a nerf. When they did that, I realized how many nerfs both brawlers had sat through, the lack of fixes they shouldered, the ignoring they suffered. Yet, they were still here. Why? Because of the mighty FD. They could still shiny farm, scout, and spot for calls better than anyone. Even though these things only had a mild game use, it still gave them pride. It gave them something to link themselves to the other classes on the server. I dont think that anyone in brawler community realized how badly they had been treated, how many indignities they'd suffered until FD was nerfed. And then it all came to them in a flood, feeling like a massive nerf all happening simulatenously because the brawler community had justified all the nerfs and indignities with FD eliteness. Suddenly all those other nerfs were no longer justified. SOE had taken back everything that mattered. And the result? Immediate mass account cancellation. Now of course, I dont really know that mass account cancellation occured, but I have evidence. All the posters that stated they were cancelling. They werent threatening to cancel. They were simply cancelling all their accounts. And within days of the nerf, the Devs finally responded to the brawler community with a lame excuse of not being aware of the implications of the nerf. Devs do not respond to brawlers or give back things that they specifically take away. And yet they did, and with near immediate urgency. That's why I suspect there were mass cancellations.While I'm glad they fixed the problem, it also suggests there's hope because clearly the devs are reading our boards. And I consider that a false hope. Of course they read our boards. They read all the boards. When they made this obsurdly obvious change, it told me something about the way SOE does business. It told me something about the future direction of EQ2, not just for mired class but for the quality of the game in general. The only time that Devs will give attention to ignored classes such as Brawlers, SKs and Mystics is when a recent nerf sparks mass cancellation, when players dont even try to explain the absurdity to developers. When I see ridiculousness like T1 DPS enchanters, EQ1 keyed/teired raiding practices, classes that have been broken for years with nary a response from developers, it tells me that EQ2 has run its course. During the first few years it was stellar, but all good things much come to an end. Sadly, there are no other fantasy MMOs out there to pick up the mantle (not for me anyway), but there will be. And when it comes, I'm gone forever. No hard feelings. I understand how these thing happen. It happened to Eve, and very much sooner than it happened to EQ2. And in IMO, Eve is good again, but I had to deal with so much CCP foolishness for so long that the fervor is gone, ruined, no matter how much they improve things. Would folks go back to SWG if they did a complete reboot to pre-NGE? They'd get a few no doubt, but overall, the flavor just isn't there anymore. Too bad, really.

evilgamer

09-04-2008, 02:49 PM

<cite>ScrapperX wrote:</cite><blockquote>I did have fun playing him for a long time. But you can only be ignored for so long before youre calloused and your enjoyment's sapped. I would have quit entirely if I didnt find my necromancy side. I remember when they nerfed FD with that toggle recast thing. I had long since shelved my bruiser at that time, but it got me to thinking because it was so grievous a nerf. When they did that, I realized how many nerfs both brawlers had sat through, the lack of fixes they shouldered, the ignoring they suffered. Yet, they were still here. Why? Because of the mighty FD. They could still shiny farm, scout, and spot for calls better than anyone. Even though these things only had a mild game use, it still gave them pride. It gave them something to link themselves to the other classes on the server. I dont think that anyone in brawler community realized how badly they had been treated, how many indignities they'd suffered until FD was nerfed. And then it all came to them in a flood, feeling like a massive nerf all happening simulatenously because the brawler community had justified all the nerfs and indignities with FD eliteness. Suddenly all those other nerfs were no longer justified. SOE had taken back everything that mattered. And the result? Immediate mass account cancellation. Now of course, I dont really know that mass account cancellation occured, but I have evidence. All the posters that stated they were cancelling. They werent threatening to cancel. They were simply cancelling all their accounts. And within days of the nerf, the Devs finally responded to the brawler community with a lame excuse of not being aware of the implications of the nerf. Devs do not respond to brawlers or give back things that they specifically take away. And yet they did, and with near immediate urgency. That's why I suspect there were mass cancellations.While I'm glad they fixed the problem, it also suggests there's hope because clearly the devs are reading our boards. And I consider that a false hope. Of course they read our boards. They read all the boards. When they made this obsurdly obvious change, it told me something about the way SOE does business. It told me something about the future direction of EQ2, not just for mired class but for the quality of the game in general. The only time that Devs will give attention to ignored classes such as Brawlers, SKs and Mystics is when a recent nerf sparks mass cancellation, when players dont even try to explain the absurdity to developers. When I see ridiculousness like T1 DPS enchanters, EQ1 keyed/teired raiding practices, classes that have been broken for years with nary a response from developers, it tells me that EQ2 has run its course. During the first few years it was stellar, but all good things much come to an end. Sadly, there are no other fantasy MMOs out there to pick up the mantle (not for me anyway), but there will be. And when it comes, I'm gone forever. No hard feelings. I understand how these thing happen. It happened to Eve, and very much sooner than it happened to EQ2. And in IMO, Eve is good again, but I had to deal with so much CCP foolishness for so long that the fervor is gone, ruined, no matter how much they improve things. Would folks go back to SWG if they did a complete reboot to pre-NGE? They'd get a few no doubt, but overall, the flavor just isn't there anymore. Too bad, really.</blockquote>I more or less agree with you, I have been pretty close to canceling myself a few times, but for one reason or another I stuck around. I am curious to see what the next expansion holds. I can tell you this though, if they drop the baby on this expansion and do not address some of these well known and well documented issues or just half heartedly adjust them, I will be canceling.

Aull

09-04-2008, 04:30 PM

With all the people that play this game it will be impossible to please them all at the same time. What I see the bruiser class as and what someone else sees it as will be totally different. I don't think the bruiser class is broken, but I do think a bruiser looses out in most catagories (fighter related) compaired to other melee classes except being able to fd and that is about it.As of now my complaint(s) with the bruiser class is simply no grouping or raiding luster. Some will argue that "well bruisers solo so well is one of the reasons they are not group friendly". If how good a class soloes is what determines how good/bad of grouping mates they are then some classes out there need to loose some grouping/raiding appeal as well since they solo just as well or better than a bruiser. However I do not ever wish to call a nerf on any class and that isn't my intentions here.I do think that a nice actually raid beneficial buff would bring this luster or appeal back to the bruiser class. As for tanking I think bruisers are dead last in the fighter department and dps bruisers are second. I do think bruisers should be more offensive but in doing so we shouldn't be top dog in tanking. I think it would only be fair that way. If a bruiser was top fighter dps, third in tanking, and first or second in group support/raid appeal that would only call for a nerf later.Again this is just my opinion.

evilgamer

09-04-2008, 04:44 PM

Aull

09-04-2008, 06:20 PM

I look at dps as being consistantly and at all times able to do a fair amount of damage. Bruisers are good burst damage while all combat arts are up and ready to fire away. That is fine solo. Zerkers and monks have the advantage in that they have hasting abilities that allow when combat arts are down to still do nice damage. Do not misunderstand me cause I think a bruiser can do decent damage but just not consistanly. Of the thirteen combat arts the bruiser has two are on 10 sec refreshes, four are on 30 sec refreshes, four on 60 sec refreshes, one on 90 secs, one at 40 secs, and the other at 45 secs. Only one of these combat arts actually hit twice as hard as a monks and that is gut punch other than that some not all bruiser ca's hit at 125 lower than a monks low end damage but hit 125-143 more than a monks on the high end. A monk has two that are 10 secs refreshes, nine that are 30 secs, and one that is 60 sec and one that is 90 secs. With haste points around 107-135 on average with equipment and combine this the agility line recovery speed and a monk can somewhat spam ca's and have the best auto attack in the game. Very nice in my book.I am sure others see it differently and that is cool.

evilgamer

09-04-2008, 06:30 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I look at dps as being consistantly and at all times able to do a fair amount of damage. Bruisers are good burst damage while all combat arts are up and ready to fire away. That is fine solo. Zerkers and monks have the advantage in that they have hasting abilities that allow when combat arts are down to still do nice damage. Do not misunderstand me cause I think a bruiser can do decent damage but just not consistanly. Of the thirteen combat arts the bruiser has two are on 10 sec refreshes, four are on 30 sec refreshes, four on 60 sec refreshes, one on 90 secs, one at 40 secs, and the other at 45 secs. Only one of these combat arts actually hit twice as hard as a monks and that is gut punch other than that some not all bruiser ca's hit at 125 lower than a monks low end damage but hit 125-143 more than a monks on the high end. A monk has two that are 10 secs refreshes, nine that are 30 secs, and one that is 60 sec and one that is 90 secs. With haste points around 107-135 on average with equipment and combine this the agility line recovery speed and a monk can somewhat spam ca's and have the best auto attack in the game. Very nice in my book.I am sure others see it differently and that is cool.</blockquote>Meh the only thing that matters to me is what you can parse on a zone wide or the wall.Just because our damage is more burst and theirs is more steady does not necessarily mean they will out dps us.I personally do not think I have have ever been outparsed by a monk, that did not have vastly superior gear to me (my fabled epic vs their mythical).I generally parse just a bit better then similarly geared/played monks, the difference is very slight though.

Scrappe

09-04-2008, 07:47 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>With all the people that play this game it will be impossible to please them all at the same time. What I see the bruiser class as and what someone else sees it as will be totally different. I don't think the bruiser class is broken, but I do think a bruiser looses out in most catagories (fighter related) compaired to other melee classes except being able to fd and that is about it.I would agree with this statement. I dont think there's any class ingame that's so broken that it cant be used to accompllish most things ingame. Now how that class fair's to its peers is another matter entirely. Is it right to ask for more when technically you could raid, group and solo? I have to say yes, but within reason. Is it right to ask for more simply because your peers have enough attractiveness associated with them that they get preferential treatment in raid and group? I have to give that a resounding yes. For the record, I see brawlers and SKs on one end, and the other three fighters on the other.As of now my complaint(s) with the bruiser class is simply no grouping or raiding luster. Some will argue that "well bruisers solo so well is one of the reasons they are not group friendly". If how good a class soloes is what determines how good/bad of grouping mates they are then some classes out there need to loose some grouping/raiding appeal as well since they solo just as well or better than a bruiser. However I do not ever wish to call a nerf on any class and that isn't my intentions here.Totally on the money here, most notably in relation to uncontested avoidance. There just shouldnt be any.I do think that a nice actually raid beneficial buff would bring this luster or appeal back to the bruiser class. As for tanking I think bruisers are dead last in the fighter department and dps bruisers are second. I do think bruisers should be more offensive but in doing so we shouldn't be top dog in tanking. I think it would only be fair that way. If a bruiser was top fighter dps, third in tanking, and first or second in group support/raid appeal that would only call for a nerf later.I have to take a different path on the road fork here. As you see, I'm careful to include monks as our brothers equalled in nerfage, even though they have more raid favoritism currently. I was a monk for a long time too, and I can tell you there was a nice long stretch where monks absolutely blew compared to bruisers. And then our 3 minute mit buff got obliterated and haste became king. Then later down the road, the group DPS buff was removed entirely. Those changes constitute the current monk favoritism over bruiser, but it absolutely does not constitute raid or group worthiness. Peel made the monk absolutely required on any aggro-control problem raid, creating much rejoicing amongst our Monk brothers. But even during the reign of Peel, I knew that that one thing was their only apeal. If it was to ever be nerfed, then suddenly that monk was a 5th wheel. And of course it did get nerfed because it was too awesome. So what I'm trying to say is that one buff is not enough. Two buffs are not enough. Both brawlers need to be re-envisioned. And that is something they will not do. Of all the subclasses I find serious fault with, it's only ever one of the two of the class. The opposite subclass has no problems worthy of cancellation. All except for the brawler. Whichever one is better flip-flops from one xpac to the next, so I suspect bruisers will be better than monks for SoO, but that doesnt really matter, because it will be some kind of monk-nerf or new-game-dynamic-resulting-in-a-monk-nerf that makes it so. Nothing will truly have changed because there is no place for either brawler in EQ2.Again this is just my opinion.</blockquote>

Aull

09-04-2008, 11:38 PM

<cite>ScrapperX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>With all the people that play this game it will be impossible to please them all at the same time. What I see the bruiser class as and what someone else sees it as will be totally different. I don't think the bruiser class is broken, but I do think a bruiser looses out in most catagories (fighter related) compaired to other melee classes except being able to fd and that is about it.I would agree with this statement. I dont think there's any class ingame that's so broken that it cant be used to accompllish most things ingame. Now how that class fair's to its peers is another matter entirely. Is it right to ask for more when technically you could raid, group and solo? I have to say yes, but within reason. Is it right to ask for more simply because your peers have enough attractiveness associated with them that they get preferential treatment in raid and group? I have to give that a resounding yes. For the record, I see brawlers and SKs on one end, and the other three fighters on the other.As of now my complaint(s) with the bruiser class is simply no grouping or raiding luster. Some will argue that "well bruisers solo so well is one of the reasons they are not group friendly". If how good a class soloes is what determines how good/bad of grouping mates they are then some classes out there need to loose some grouping/raiding appeal as well since they solo just as well or better than a bruiser. However I do not ever wish to call a nerf on any class and that isn't my intentions here.Totally on the money here, most notably in relation to uncontested avoidance. There just shouldnt be any.I do think that a nice actually raid beneficial buff would bring this luster or appeal back to the bruiser class. As for tanking I think bruisers are dead last in the fighter department and dps bruisers are second. I do think bruisers should be more offensive but in doing so we shouldn't be top dog in tanking. I think it would only be fair that way. If a bruiser was top fighter dps, third in tanking, and first or second in group support/raid appeal that would only call for a nerf later.I have to take a different path on the road fork here. As you see, I'm careful to include monks as our brothers equalled in nerfage, even though they have more raid favoritism currently. I was a monk for a long time too, and I can tell you there was a nice long stretch where monks absolutely blew compared to bruisers. And then our 3 minute mit buff got obliterated and haste became king. Then later down the road, the group DPS buff was removed entirely. Those changes constitute the current monk favoritism over bruiser, but it absolutely does not constitute raid or group worthiness. Peel made the monk absolutely required on any aggro-control problem raid, creating much rejoicing amongst our Monk brothers. But even during the reign of Peel, I knew that that one thing was their only apeal. If it was to ever be nerfed, then suddenly that monk was a 5th wheel. And of course it did get nerfed because it was too awesome. So what I'm trying to say is that one buff is not enough. Two buffs are not enough. Both brawlers need to be re-envisioned. And that is something they will not do. Of all the subclasses I find serious fault with, it's only ever one of the two of the class. The opposite subclass has no problems worthy of cancellation. All except for the brawler. Whichever one is better flip-flops from one xpac to the next, so I suspect bruisers will be better than monks for SoO, but that doesnt really matter, because it will be some kind of monk-nerf or new-game-dynamic-resulting-in-a-monk-nerf that makes it so. Nothing will truly have changed because there is no place for either brawler in EQ2.Again this is just my opinion.</blockquote></blockquote>Your last paragraph really educated me. I have been commenting from a bruiser stand point but since I never actually have played a monk to a high enough lvl so I should really shut my opinions down because I can be misleading others by my ignorance. I have never wished for or wanted a nerf to happen to any class what so ever but I have always wanted there to be noticeable distinguishing factors between all the sub classes. Of all the sub classes I have perceived the brawlers are so close that the only deciding factor was that monks are better group mates than bruisers do to simple abilities that the monks have as a sub class.I have believed for a long time that bruisers were more offensive while monks were more defensive similar to a berserker and guardian comparison. In reality I feel that a monk is not equal to a bruiser, but this does not say that bruiser is better than the monk or vise versa. I think tanking wise and dps wise both are in essence equal given the gear, buffs, and player skill are roughly the same only with an ever so slight advantage to the monk in tanking (tsunami) and an ever so slight advantage to the bruiser (knockout). Again nothing that really stands out that says "well a monk can do XXXXX much better than a bruiser, but a bruiser can do YYYYY much better than a monk". For me I think that having sub classes as equals is rubbish and there should be factors that stand out so no misunderstandings about sub classes stand in the way.Thanks for you post Scrapper.