How to tell your raid leader has no clue what you do in a fight!!!

[Dark_Moons_Rising]

<p>Raid leader posted this on our forums today.</p><p>Assassins/Swash need to be much higher because they are only xfering dps..</p><p> on the other side the DoT classes tend to have built up an undroppable aggro level mid to end fight, warlocks and Necros are the worst for this when buffed well. This is a dance as well as evades drop dps level you don't want to over evade...</p>

[OutcastBlade]

...At the end of the day our importance on the raid can be summarized into four roles. DPS -> Offense Debuffs -> Hate Xfer -> AE Block.Evading doesn't deter from any of this. Because evading takes your OWN hate and chops it down a bit which is what you want. You also can't over evade because it has a fairly long recast timer.Your RL needs to stop overanalyzing stuff.

[RingleToo]

<p>Did you really want to call out your raid leader in such a public forum? It would be interesting to know what the raid leader has to say now lol</p>

[Katanalla]

holy cwap people actually read this forum more than 1-2 times a week?

[Dark_Moons_Rising]

<p><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>this was my response to her,, </p><p>Just about everything i throw in a fight, has some sort of debuff attached to it. So, in a normal fight, every ca ( with the exception of one or two ) does Direct damage + debuffs the mob in some way..</p><p> And this was her response ...</p><p>I'll do my best to not be insulted you didn't read the purpose of the thread and the specific mention to assassin / swash as an aggro xfer role... ie a coercer is passing a portion of their dps as well as increasing the tanks taunt and dps ability by 15+% wich increased taunt power is greater than a 1:1 ratio that dps is... so an assassin swash in aggro dump role for th tank must be a great dpser as they do not increase the tanks natual taunt and dps bonus threat value...in a nutshell a coercer can boost the tanks own threat increasing power in many cases more even parsing well under what a T1 dps does... where as a scout MUST dps well in the role since they don't increase the tanks natural taunt power. Debuffs are not in a greater than 1:1 ratio like taunts are therefore being a debuffer does not = doesn't need to be a high dps role.</p><p>in threat ratio the order is:</p><ul>Taunts > Damage > Heals</ul><p>debuffs are similar to heals and damage in ratio, to my understanding but not more threat than dps.</p><p>the main purpose of the threat that started this,, was on hate gain faq's</p>

[tikasa]

<cite>Dark_Moons_Rising wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>this was my response to her,, </p><p>Just about everything i throw in a fight, has some sort of debuff attached to it. So, in a normal fight, every ca ( with the exception of one or two ) does Direct damage + debuffs the mob in some way..</p><p> And this was her response ...</p><p>I'll do my best to not be insulted you didn't read the purpose of the thread and the specific mention to assassin / swash as an aggro xfer role... ie a coercer is passing a portion of their dps as well as increasing the tanks taunt and dps ability by 15+% wich increased taunt power is greater than a 1:1 ratio that dps is... so an assassin swash in aggro dump role for th tank must be a great dpser as they do not increase the tanks natual taunt and dps bonus threat value...</p><p><b>Swashies GIVE a part of their DPS to their target.   Dirges amplifiy a tanks hate gain.  Coercers give a part of their hate gain and amplify some of the tanks hate.   Dirges>Coercer>Swashie unless you have a really good swashie.   Dirges and Coercers add to the tanks DPS ( hate gain ) through great buffs as well.</b>in a nutshell a coercer can boost the tanks own threat increasing power in many cases more even parsing well under what a T1 dps does... where as a scout MUST dps well in the role since they don't increase the tanks natural taunt power. Debuffs are not in a greater than 1:1 ratio like taunts are therefore being a debuffer does not = doesn't need to be a high dps role.</p><p>in threat ratio the order is:</p><ul>Taunts > Damage > Heals</ul><p><b>1 point taunt = 1 point damage > 1 point heal</b></p><p>debuffs are similar to heals and damage in ratio, to my understanding but not more threat than dps.</p><p><b>Debuffs do not add hate... they only get you attention if you use them BEFORE a tank has a chance to buid hate.  Doubt it?   Have a tank do nothing but taunt 2 times.   You use any debuffs that do not do damage as often as you want....   you will never pull hate from tank.</b></p><p>the main purpose of the threat that started this,, was on hate gain faq's</p></blockquote>

[OutcastBlade]

<cite>Dark_Moons_Rising wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>this was my response to her,, </p><p>Just about everything i throw in a fight, has some sort of debuff attached to it. So, in a normal fight, every ca ( with the exception of one or two ) does Direct damage + debuffs the mob in some way..</p><p> And this was her response ...</p><p>I'll do my best to not be insulted you didn't read the purpose of the thread and the specific mention to assassin / swash as an aggro xfer role... ie a coercer is passing a portion of their dps as well as increasing the tanks taunt and dps ability by 15+% wich increased taunt power is greater than a 1:1 ratio that dps is... so an assassin swash in aggro dump role for th tank must be a great dpser as they do not increase the tanks natual taunt and dps bonus threat value...in a nutshell a coercer can boost the tanks own threat increasing power in many cases more even parsing well under what a T1 dps does... where as a scout MUST dps well in the role since they don't increase the tanks natural taunt power. Debuffs are not in a greater than 1:1 ratio like taunts are therefore being a debuffer does not = doesn't need to be a high dps role.</p><p>in threat ratio the order is:</p><ul>Taunts > Damage > Heals</ul><p>debuffs are similar to heals and damage in ratio, to my understanding but not more threat than dps.</p><p>the main purpose of the threat that started this,, was on hate gain faq's</p></blockquote>If debuffs generate hate, its negligible. As the dude who posted earlier than me said. I wouldn't be surprised if they didnt add to hate at all. Not to mention all of your debuffs, and your hate proc(Blame Blade) is pretty much usable in any group.What can we offer?We give the tank <i>an edge</i> in managing hate.We have an AE Block AA. We have two taunts which also get xferred.~46% chance to AE attack all enemies in frontal arch, xferring their hate to the tank as well.We are better than assassin's with hate xfer thanks to our epic, but assassins have higher dps and a group friend buff that can add a chunk of dps to the tank thereby increasing the tank's ability to generate hate, making good assassins better for hate generation/xfer on single target encounters. This puts an assassin in the same league as a fabled epic swashy, which is what I am assuming you are. Therefor what this boils down to is skill with the class, and skill in this case equates to raw dps output.A Main Tank Group needs a defiler, coercer, dirge, templar, guardian setup. No exception. After my comment about the assassin, I still think the only logical choice for sixth spot is swashy. For most tank and spank encounters, a swashbuckler is the best sixth spot choice because we do great dps with that setup, therefor we transfer a great deal of hate to the tank. The assassin would only suffer in an MT group, and would struggle to have the same kind of impact on the tank as a swashy with his epic would have. This would be partly based on the fact that he doesn't have the optimal assassin dps class makeup in his group, which imo is an illy, dirge, mystic/inq.

[Dark_Moons_Rising]

<p><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Our main tank grp consist of, ( drum roll Pls)</p><p>Guard</p><p>defiler</p><p>dirge</p><p>templar</p><p>warden</p><p>coercer.</p><p>often, im in the ( oh, there also in the raid, grp)</p>

[Rebekahh]

help your raid leader learn how to write, then get back to us

[OutcastBlade]

Hey don't knock it. That MT setup is alright.... for long joust encounters and raid guilds just starting out that is.Your MT needs to be able to take some serious hits before they put a non healer in sixth spot. Swashies make the MT's hate management a little easier. We are not a necessity like a coercer or a dirge are.

[tikasa]

<cite>Dark_Moons_Rising wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Our main tank grp consist of, ( drum roll Pls)</p><p>Guard</p><p>defiler</p><p>dirge</p><p>templar</p><p>warden</p><p>coercer.</p><p>often, im in the ( oh, there also in the raid, grp)</p></blockquote><p>Solid group if the healers are subpar or it is a new zone.    You will never be able to replace the benefits of the Dirge or Coercer.   Defiler, Gaurd and Templar are cemented in the group.    So you are posting all this cause the Warden took your spot?    News for ya... with the hate cap in place.. you are not needed for that group.   The Dirge and Coercer already transfer the max hate that can be transfered unless they are slackers.</p><p>Each post you comment about how uninformed your RL is.. but you are the one that is uniformed.   Read the Forums first.   Search for hate caps...   Untill they raise the Cap the amount you transfer just keeps the amount the Dirge and Coercer can transfer...    Wash.   </p><p>In no way do I think that adding the extra healer is needed however.   More DPS means less healing is needed.....   Slow fights are for newb guilds</p><p>PS: in the first post it was stated that your deaggro lost hate?   Wrong.   Damage is done THEN hate is transfered THEN hate is adjusted    If you do damage then use an aggro reducing skill it DOES NOT take hate away from tank.    I do not know about insta-casts like Ignorant bliss poisons since they are SPELLS with 0 cast time.</p>

[Rippitt]

The hate gain % modifier and hate transfer % modifier work independently of each other. Assume everyone has M1/M2 skills: Dirge and Coercer together give 54%(50%) hate gain Swash and Coercer give 19-27% and 17% hate transfer, respectively A good tank still needs both of these to establish and maintain aggro 100% of the time in a zone like VP, if his raid force is geared adequately and doing appropriate dps to show for it. Coming from someone in a guild that has had VP on farm status long enough that we roll through there with 2 1/2 groups and a bunch of boxed toons, we STILL use the warden for encounters that are appropriate for it. (Nexona, Druushk, Trak'anon) I can't think of any raid trash I've seen in this game that couldn't be 2 healed by a defiler and templar with appropriate gear for the content.

[Rageincarnate]

wtb , spell description for hyran's seething sonata

[Nefariouzx]

You need to have a serious talk with your raidleader. If your getting put in the "short bus" group then they are wrong. Swashie's can do some major dps, I'm top 2 everynight fighting back and forth with our assassin. Of course, I'm in the MT grp everytime unless we are doing an avatar or Tangrin, and even alot of them I'm still in the MT grp. If your guild isn't capable of running with only 2 healers in the mt grp then suggest she put you in the OT with a setup like this... zerk, dirge, illy, mystic, templar. If you get her to hook you up like that for 1 raid, you should put out enough dps in that grp to keep that your static setup.

[Dark_Moons_Rising]

<p><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Update:</p><p>Not raiding because raid leader stood me down when i was the ONLY rogue from the guild online.</p><p> Guild went into vp to take on nexona,</p><p>main tank grp was the same, ( dirge, coercer, warden, defiler, templar and guard)</p><p>also,, they went in with 5 sorcerers ( 3 wizzies, 2 warlocks&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 2 conj. 2 coercers, and an ,,</p><p>        4 tanks ( 2 guards, 1 pally and 1 monk </p><p>4 scouts (1 troubs, and 2 dirges and an assasin)</p><p>        2 templars, 2 shamman and 1 fury and 1 warden and 1 inq.</p><p> to this date,, we have yet defeated nexona, and have problems with druushk.</p>

[OutcastBlade]

<cite>Dark_Moons_Rising wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Update:</p><p>Not raiding because raid leader stood me down when i was the ONLY rogue from the guild online.</p><p> Guild went into vp to take on nexona,</p><p>main tank grp was the same, ( dirge, coercer, warden, defiler, templar and guard)</p><p>also,, they went in with 5 sorcerers ( 3 wizzies, 2 warlocks <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 2 conj. 2 coercers, and an ,,</p><p>        4 tanks ( 2 guards, 1 pally and 1 monk </p><p>4 scouts (1 troubs, and 2 dirges and an assasin)</p><p>        2 templars, 2 shamman and 1 fury and 1 warden and 1 inq.</p><p> to this date,, we have yet defeated nexona, and have problems with druushk.</p></blockquote>Wow... That raid has like no melee DPS. [Removed for Content] is he taking two extra guardians for? You should have at most 1 of each fighter.<div></div><div>The only thing I can derive from that balls up mess, is a.) You're not a very good player, b.) your raid leader doesn't know anything about group setup, or c.) you whined too much and he got tired of it, thereby purposely overlooking you.</div><div></div><div>To go into VP without a rogue is just... really really stupid...</div>

[OutcastBlade]

<cite></cite>Java exception with TOMCAT made me do it.

[OutcastBlade]

<cite></cite><div>Java exception with TOMCAT made me do it...</div>

[Darwa]

I remember when games used to be more about having fun than running numbers.Good times.

[riblete]

Without intending to defend any particular actions by anyone, number-watching provides a great amount of joy to me. Knowing through hard data that one tactic is better than another to kill a cetain mob provides more enjoyment than than the killing. Doing it well gives satisfaction, just doing it is mind-numbing. How many mobs has an average level 80 killed? 50,000? 100,000? Advanced Combat Tracker provides the real-time number crunching that lets me see a whole other side of the game. Interpreting the data, and learning how to use the information mined from that data to me is fun. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> I also enjoy tweaking or writing new interface mods, which to many is work or tedium. I have often heard "Quit messing with that stupid mod and get in here to have some fun", but what they did not realize was that I was already having a great deal of fun. Playing with numbers from ACT is the same. Why did that tactic work, and why did that fight go so badly? Which weapon is better against this mob, or in this group setup? How did we do, and where did we fail? Fun! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[SparkleCBP]

Wow, that raid setup without a swashie and/or brig is an epic FAIL