The myth of brawler "dps tanks"

[evilgamer]

<p>Yep thats right the idea the brawlers are the "dps tanks" is a complete falsehood and here is why.</p><p>There is two types of skills/stats in this game in this game, contested and uncontested.</p><p>Contested skills checks your level vs the mobs level and scales it accordingly.  Its the reason a red con will almost always hit you and you wont be able to land a an attack or spell on it.  Simply put your melee skills are overshadowed by the mobs avoidence skills, mitigation and resist.</p><p>Uncontested skills ignore the mobs level and still give you a percent chance to do whatever no matter what the mobs level is.  The only uncontested skills I am aware of is uncontested avoidence.</p><p>How do you know which is which?  Simply put, if a spell, AA, stance, buff, item says + x defense/block/parry/riposte/etc then it is contested.</p><p>If it says caster/wearer/etc will block/dodge/parry/block/riposte/etc x% of incoming attacks, it means no matter what the mobs level you will always get a roll to do just that.</p><p>Dont believe me?  Create a level 1 guardian in neriak, make sure your noob tower sheild is equipped and attack the level 85 epic x 2 guards.  If you attack the guards 10 times you will sheild block roughly 50% of their attacks despite the 84 level difference before going splat.</p><p>Now unequip the tower shield and attack the same guard with your noob level 1 guard and you will go splat every single time, you will not parry or dodge anything.</p><p>That is the power of uncontested avoidence.  Of couse you will never hit or land a single spell against a level 85 when you are level 1, nor will you ever dodge or parry, because those skills are contested.</p><p>He is how this relates to us.  </p><p>All of Sheild block from sheilds is uncontested and based on the protection value of the sheild.  This is primarly where the plate tanks get their uncontested avoidence, although other items, food and adornments give it also.</p><p>Our uncontested avoidence comes from our middle and defensive stances, and is based on the quality of the stance ( adept 1 vs M1, etc)</p><p>At M1 level our uncontested is basically equal to a fabled round sheild in defensive stance.</p><p>This is the reason why some of you complain of going splat against higher con mobs, because undoubtedly some of you are trying to tank in your offensive stance, like plate tanks can, and trying to do it with less actual avoidence then a plate tank has in addition to considerably less mitigation. (plate vs leather)</p><p>Which leads me to the topic of this  thread.  When tanking higher con mobs all brawlers almost are forced to use their defensive stance to as with any other stance our uncontested avoidence almost drops to nothing.  Plate tanks do not have this problem as their primary source of uncontested comes from their sheilds and AA's.</p><p>Almost all plate tanks in their offensive stance most of the time because they do not take the avoidence hit that really matters the most (uncontested) when doing so.</p><p>Allowing most of them (especially the warriors) to do more dps then us when tanking mobs then we do when tanking the same mobs.</p><p>Really the only time a brawler will out dps a warrior all things being equal (gear, player abilty, etc) is when the brawler is not tanking.  </p><p>And for this supposed dps we get, we are limited to leather armor lol.  </p><p>Oh, I guess against even con or lower mobs we will do more dps when tanking as we can use our offensive stance, but rogues can tank that stuff so who really cares.</p>

[Gilasil]

<p>Thank you.  That was the clearest discussion of the difference between contested and uncontested avoidance I've seen on these boards.</p><p>I'm holding my breath to see what happens in the new expansion.</p><p>Didn't I hear somewhere that all avoidance against epic mobs is contested?  That they ignore uncontested avoidance?  Did I get that right?</p><p>If so wouldn't that put brawlers and plate tanks on an even footing in that one area?</p>

[evilgamer]

<cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Thank you.  That was the clearest discussion of the difference between contested and uncontested avoidance I've seen on these boards.</p><p>I'm holding my breath to see what happens in the new expansion.</p><p>Didn't I hear somewhere that all avoidance against epic mobs is contested?  That they ignore uncontested avoidance?  Did I get that right?</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">No, no mob in the game ignores uncontested avoidence, hence the name "uncontested avoidence".  Its the reason a level 1 guardian can sheild block an attack from a level 85 x 2 epic guard, but cant parry or dodge one.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Sheild block is uncontested, base parry and dodge from skills is not.</span></p><p>If so wouldn't that put brawlers and plate tanks on an even footing in that one area?</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">What a mob is tagged (solo, VV, heroic, or epic) is irrelevant.  Its the mobs level vs you level that your avoidence, mitigation, offensive skills that your <u><b>contested skills</b></u> are checked at. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Obvioudly epic mobs have more hitpoints and hit harder then heroic, but they dont have anything special about them, the are just scaled up the same way heroic mobs are to solo ones (beside immunity to things like stuns, knockdowns, etc)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Uncontested skills (of which avoidence is the only one I am aware of ) do not chech your level vs the mobs level, they just give a flat out % chance on a roll.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Meaning if you 15% uncontested avoidence to deflect a blow, it wouldnt matter if you were atttacking a level 1000 mob, you would still get a 15% chance to deflect that incoming melee attack.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Its the reasn I can tank x2 epics in SoF with little to no problem, as they con blue or even green to me, but I really struggle orange ^^^.  The orange ^^^ ignore way more of my avoidence then the x 2 blue con does.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Its also the reason you can see plate tanks tank those orange and yellow mobs with little effort, while we really struggle against them.  Against those mobs its likely that they have more actuall avoidence and of course significantly more mit then we do.</span></p></blockquote>

[evilgamer]

<p>The truth is you want a dps tank against higher con stuff, you better off with a guard or zerker.</p><p>They can stay in offensive and do more dps tanking then a simlarly geared/played brawler would.</p>

[Dorieon]

<p> You're right on 'uncontested' avoidance being screwed up. Plate tanks shouldn't have more than us. But, I hate the term 'Dps tank' it isn't completely accurate and doesn't apply to just Brawlers. I could say that Zerkers and SK's are 'Dps tanks' as well. Neither have great agro control outside of their dps.</p><p> However, here's the thing with them increasing our 'uncontested' avoidance.....Lets take SoH for example. The difference between me and my guild's Guard tanking it (up to Maestro) is even on time and even on survivability (as in neither of us die outside of healer LD's and such). However, with all those delicious MT buffs I am almost always top 2-3 on the parse (top is my assassin agro transfer) where as our Guard is anywhere from 9-15(ish). And I never lose agro unless someone attacks early but I get it back very fast without a taunt. Thats top 2-3 on the parse while TANKING...in offensive stance of course which gives us the least 'uncontested' avoidance.</p><p> Now if I can do that without any VP gear at all (and I only use 3 raid drop pieces anyway), imagine what a VP geared brawler can do. Brawler loot has always closed the gap better at the top end of raiding. It kinda sucks but it keeps things even I guess and really maybe it should be way. I mean if you have a tank that can be top 5 dps why take anyone else? And thats exactly what we would be if we had the equivalent of shield block. Don't get me wrong I would love it, but after a week....maybe a month or 2 the heavy hand of SoE would come down and over compensate in balancing us out and we would be weaker than we are now. </p><p>For the longest time I thought like you did....that if they just gave us more 'uncontested' avoidance it would fix the leather vs plate tank discussion. It won't. Not without taking a huge nerf to our dps, and then getting super taunts to make up the difference. And then if you look at it, we would be plate tanks that took huge spike damage because we wear leather. And then we would be even worse off for raiding/grouping than we are now.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p>There is so much uncontested avoidance gear, to make up for the fact that brawlers can't get shields.  3% for each wrist, 3% for slashing weapons, 2% on mastercrafted neck, 5% juggy helm, 3% Juggy tunic, 5% Juggy 3set bonus, 15% Supple Dogwood Staff, plus all the stuff from RE2, cloak, and jewelry.  </p><p>   Also here is a tip.   If you are raid tanking, you can start out in defensive stance, hit divide and conquer to lock aggro a bit... then a few seconds after the mob is debuffed switch to offensive stance and go to town.   A properly debuffed mob is no problem at all to tank in fully offensive gear, in offensive stance, and wearing a bloodthirty choker.  </p>

[evilgamer]

<cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>For the longest time I thought like you did....that if they just gave us more 'uncontested' avoidance it would fix the leather vs plate tank discussion. It won't. Not without taking a huge nerf to our dps, and then getting super taunts to make up the difference. And then if you look at it, we would be plate tanks that took huge spike damage because we wear leather. And then we would be even worse off for raiding/grouping than we are now.</p></blockquote><p>I dont want more uncontested avoidence.</p><p>I want uncontested avoidence taken completely out of the game.</p><p>Its unbalancing game play.</p><p>Raid geared guards are hittting like 30-40% uncontested, which is rediculous.</p><p>Its causing the devs to consistently ramp up mobs level to compensate for this vast increase in survivablity, which is fubaring both tank balance and other parts of the game.</p><p>Part of the reason people scream about guard dps is because they can tank in their offensive stance and barely take a hit to their "real" avoidence.</p><p>Its also affecting things like spell resist rates that nuke classes are screaming about.</p><p>Increasing the mobs level makes their resist rates go up.</p><p>Mobs level must be increased or content is a joke because the tank can still avoid 40% of all incoming blows irreguardless of the mobs level.</p><p>Avoidence is the only skill in this game to my knowledge that is uncontested.</p><p>I would prefer they just get rid of uncontested avoidence and scale back mobs levels.  The game will still be challenging if not more, tanks will have to use their defensive stance so the guard nerf wont be necessary, and spell resist rates will go down making the nuking classes happier.</p><p>Can anybody give me a rational reason why avoidence shoudl be uncontested but, crush/slash/disruption/subjugation/mitigation/ etc should not be?</p>

[Novusod]

The bruiser is not a DPS Tank for at least at the low end. With max tank spec and all tank gear there is not much I can do in terms of dps. Avoidence is completely [Removed for Content] in this game that even though I can hit 73.6% avoid an orange epic like P'taza will hit me at least 90% of the time. I have decided to concentrate on mitigation. At this point high mitigation is the only thing that prevents me going one shot SPLAT. Link to my gear that at least gets the job done occasionally: <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=422016121" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">EQ2Players</a>

[evilgamer]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>The bruiser is not a DPS Tank for at least at the low end. With max tank spec and all tank gear there is not much I can do in terms of dps. Avoidence is completely [Removed for Content] in this game that even though I can hit 73.6% avoid an orange epic like P'taza will hit me at least 90% of the time. I have decided to concentrate on mitigation. At this point high mitigation is the only thing that prevents me going one shot SPLAT. Link to my gear that at least gets the job done occasionally: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=422016121" target="_blank">EQ2Players</a></blockquote><p>Mitigation is contested to.</p><p>You mitigation become less effective the higher the mob cons.</p><p>Like I said the only thing in this game to my knowledge that ignores most game mechanics is uncontested avoidence.</p>

[Kupek Teh Wheat]

with crap gear I tank re2 in off except the named, which I tank in mixed stance, whats teh problem?

[Quicksilver74]

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote><p>Raid geared guards are hittting like 30-40% uncontested, which is rediculous.</p></blockquote>Why is that ridiculous?  I'm a raid geared bruiser sitting at 65% uncontested avoid in avoidance gear. 

[evilgamer]

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote><p>Raid geared guards are hittting like 30-40% uncontested, which is rediculous.</p></blockquote>Why is that ridiculous?  I'm a raid geared bruiser sitting at 65% uncontested avoid in avoidance gear. </blockquote><p>First of all  the cap is 50% on uncontested I believe.</p><p>Most instanced geared brawler are hurting to just get 20% uncontested in their defensive stances.  </p><p>I gave the reasons why I think uncontested is unbalancing gameplay in my other thread.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p>the cap is not 50.   </p><p>As for most other bruisers hurting to just get 20?   Are you for real?   Considering defensive stance gives 16% all by itself....   and you can get up to 4 adornments that give 3 each (if using 2 slashing weapons), plus mastercrafted necklace that gives 2, ... I would say anyone who cannot get at least 25% simply isn't trying.  </p>

[evilgamer]

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>the cap is not 50.   </p><p>As for most other bruisers hurting to just get 20?   Are you for real?   Considering defensive stance gives 16% all by itself....   and you can get up to 4 adornments that give 3 each (if using 2 slashing weapons), plus mastercrafted necklace that gives 2, ... I would say anyone who cannot get at least 25% simply isn't trying.  </p></blockquote><p>Yes, and when in our offensive stance our uncontested drops to around 13%</p><p>5% from food</p><p>6% from adornments (how many bruiser use slashing weapons?, almost none)</p><p>2% from MC neck</p><p>Which was my point, bruisers must use their defensive stance when tanking or they take a huge hit to their uncontested, whereas plate tanks do not.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p>What weapons do you use?  If uncontested avoidance is your concerns i'd hope you would make it a point to use slashing weapons.  Soulfire Kama is slashing, and I'm pretty sure theres another good slasher you can get from T8 dungeons.  </p><p>Either way... so just use your defensive stance then.  depends more on your CA's then autoattack, and have a good hate transfer.  Also, you only need defensive stance for about the first 5 seconds anyway.  After the mob is debuffed you can switch to O stance.  </p>

[evilgamer]

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What weapons do you use?  If uncontested avoidance is your concerns i'd hope you would make it a point to use slashing weapons.  Soulfire Kama is slashing, and I'm pretty sure theres another good slasher you can get from T8 dungeons.  </p><p>Either way... so just use your defensive stance then.  depends more on your CA's then autoattack, and have a good hate transfer.  Also, you only need defensive stance for about the first 5 seconds anyway.  After the mob is debuffed you can switch to O stance.  </p></blockquote><p>I use the fabled epic and doomcoil.</p><p>I can not think of a single decent slasher from a T8 instance besides the knuckles from CoA I think.</p><p>In fact I can not think of a single fable T8 brawler slasher except the knuckles from CoA.  Which seem really rare.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p>Theres also a slasher from Kluzen in VP.  </p>

[Junaru]

I think you guys are missing his point. First of tanking SoH is a joke. I've been Wizards stand toe to toe with mobs in there. Trash mobs in SoH aren't a good indicator of someone's raid tanking abilities.If you guys don't see the issue with a Brawler needing to switch out 80% of his gear and switch into defencive stance (then offencive) to tank a mob that the shield users can do in what ever they are wearing then I don't what to tell you. Personally I wouldn't mind it so much if SOE let me swap gear out while in combat. At least then if I need to Peel a mob while in full DPS mode I could swap out some pieces and survive longer then Tsunami will last.And for the record we are the "avoidance tank". Needing to spend 100+ plat on adornments to get to the level a shield class can get without them just doesn't seem far to me.

[evilgamer]

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think you guys are missing his point. First of tanking SoH is a joke. I've been Wizards stand toe to toe with mobs in there. Trash mobs in SoH aren't a good indicator of someone's raid tanking abilities.If you guys don't see the issue with a Brawler needing to switch out 80% of his gear and switch into defencive stance (then offencive) to tank a mob that the shield users can do in what ever they are wearing then I don't what to tell you. Personally I wouldn't mind it so much if SOE let me swap gear out while in combat. At least then if I need to Peel a mob while in full DPS mode I could swap out some pieces and survive longer then Tsunami will last.And for the record we are the "avoidance tank". Needing to spend 100+ plat on adornments to get to the level a shield class can get without them just doesn't seem far to me.</blockquote>basically