Will the prodigal sons/daughters of Lucan and Bayle return home?

[Chris_p_Ratt]

<p>                I am asking this earnestly, because I am trying to figure out what the world will look like once class segregation is abolished (bus in a Brigand!). Here are some of the questions I am asking myself:</p><p>                What fundamental advantage is there to aligning one's self to a city?</p><p>                What is going to cause the Exiles to break ranks with *very* successful raiding guilds, with *very* powerful gear, to choose a city to come home to?</p><p>                How long before the gap in gear is closed (between Exile and aligned) and the competitive advantage to being an Exile is gone? (It will take time to level all of those new shiny classes). </p><p>From a lore standpoint, I don't like the idea of a Qeynosian Necromancer or a Freeportian Paladin (Yeah, I know Lucan's history - I still don't like it). I can, however, understand why those leaders are going to diversify to compete. </p><p>I just wish they (the devs) could've come up with something else... like making being a part of a city a real advantage. Exiling a real detriment. Shrug. Interested in hearing your comments. Please feel free. </p>

[gfx]

The only reasons, I can see, as to why exiles would stay in exiles is their spells. Master I's. And maybe cause they like being able to fight both sides in PvP.

[Faenril]

Once the change goes live cities will be very attractive:city = exile (all classes) + pvp rewards (gear, gold and status from writs...) + signetsPpl won't level new shiny toons, but more likely will betray existing toons to the opposite class (eventually switching city in the process), or come back from exile.City factions will be *theoritically* more powerful/easymode than exile (the way it should be) and even more than on pve servers (due to pvp gear).Edit: new sig ftw <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Paikis]

<p>Now that we've got all classes in all factions, the exile guild(s) are most likely debating if we should go back to a faction. I know VA is talking about it. What we (I) want to know is this:</p><p>1. Are there any plans to turn Haven into a true third faction? PvP armor, signets, full access to a normal priced broker, bell transport?</p><p>2. Are we going to lose our masters when (if) we go back? We're basically getting bent over with this change so having our spells stripped away to go back to the 'intended' factions would kind of hurt. Even if its only a week of not losing your masters, it'd be welcome. </p><p>I know alot of people are saying they want to go back to a faction if we're not getting the goodies and no longer having ANY advantages... and others saying they don't want to go at all. Still other people are willing to go but don't like the idea of losing several hundred plat worth of masters. </p><p>More info required please!</p>

[Faenril]

You mean ffa pvp is not enough to hold current exiles in the cave ? That's interesting.

[Paikis]

I never said i went exile to PvP. I exiled to RAID, FFA PvP was just the gravy for me.

[Wytie]

<p>Id like to know also but I think we all already know tbh...</p><p>There's a problem with SOE allowing exiles to go to the citys and not lose there masters, the citys could abuse it, by being able to flip flop sides during that time period with no consequences.</p><p>It would make alot of peoples choices easier.</p><p><b>I think the smart thing for SOE to do is allow exiles to gain faction with a city, and with that city they can use its amenity's, merchants guild halls mounts ect.. but still be carnaged flagged when trying to do so within the actual city. The specifics could be worked out by which city the guild leader resides and that's where your guild hall could be located.</b></p><p>This allows exiles a fair reason to stay without it being simply handed to them.</p><p>just my thoughts</p>

[liveja]

<cite>Chris_p_Ratt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> I just wish they (the devs) could've come up with something else... like making being a part of a city a real advantage. Exiling a real detriment.</p></blockquote><p>I agree entirely, & think they took by far the cheap-&-easy way out <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I just got done deleting both my Naggy characters. I'll come back, if either this change gets nuked (highly doubtful) or if it's confirmed that it's only going to be on Vox & Naggy, with Venekor left alone. If it gets left off of Venekor, I'll move there.</p><p>Otherwise, this change means I'm finished with EQ2 PvP.</p>

[Niou]

I'd personally like to see Exile become its own faction. With all sides being equal, nobody has anything to complain about. This is a PvP server and the one thing exiles do provide is targets for both sides. I don't know about others, but having the cities equally geared is just going to make for better fights and i'd not mind fighting both sides.As a side note, I've grown accustomed to life in exile, you do away with alot of the trash in the cities and the guild has to rely on its own members for anything, breeds another type of loyalty. (Especially on venekor where you're the only exile guild.)I think everybody can agree that with the situation on 2 out of the 3 PvP servers, it'd be a bad idea to screw over exiles completely which will cause the majority of people to quit. Caught myself wondering the other day, If we weren't out here PvPing..there would be none. We ran into 1 group of freep's, and 1 group of Q's, I don't think the other two groups ever met.I know several people that will quit if their either A. Forced back to a city, or B. Have to lose their masters. Losing 19 T8 masters isn't really in the equation for me, and I suppose i'd quit also. I hope SoE thinks about what its doing this time, instead of just shoving the square block into the circle shape by force.

[Ahlana]

<p>Well I said it before and I will say it again. With this change I think the Exiles should indeed get the same benefiets as City Guilds. No reason not to. At least as PVP Gear and Signets are concerned. Still can't purchase city stuff such as housing and mounts from them but /shrug.</p><p>The one benefiet of Exile was all classes and you took alot of hits for that one benefiet. No one used to care until Myths were introduced. Once they were their opinions went from omg Exile is so hard to OMG Exile is so easy. Yet none of them went out of their way for the easy mode. Was this because it was easy? Nope it was hard and people didn't want to make that kind of comitment they wanted city luxury with raid power.</p><p>So why should exile still be without if cities are getting what they want. It's just me but I say hand them the cake. Then again I have evac and track so I can run :p</p>

[Wytie]

<p>Honestly I can understand not giving us pvp gear, its alot easier for us to get with more targets, so it just wouldnt be right or fit, its everything else that we should get but meh.....</p>

[Ahlana]

<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Honestly I can understand not giving us pvp gear, its alot easier for us to get with more targets, so it just wouldnt be right or fit, its everything else that we should get but meh.....</p></blockquote>Meh they just make it so Exiles can't update their writ with other Exiles and then you have the same amount of targets (2 Factions, not actual numbers)

[Aeralik]

<cite>Chris_p_Ratt wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just wish they (the devs) could've come up with something else... like making being a part of a city a real advantage. Exiling a real detriment. Shrug. Interested in hearing your comments. Please feel free. </blockquote>Exiling was always supposed to be a detriment but things like raid gear and mythical epics make it very attractive compared to the negative aspects of it.  Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.  As time went on though the raid items made going exile very attractive and from the data I have seen many raiders went that route.   Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.

[Elanjar]

I'm disappointed in this change. The factioned guilds are capable of getting all the same gear as the exiles its just taking us a little longer. Which is fine considering the next expansion isnt even out. I think the real issue with the pvp situation is that it ends up being group vs player, or raid vs player (raid vs group, etc..). In fights where there is a factioned raid and an exiled raid the fights can actually be relatively fair. My guild is capable of fighting exiled groups and raids and winning sometimes losing sometimes.I think what should have been changed to make pvp complainers happy was add a system where if you are grouped you can only engage another group or higher (higher = raid). Therefore you have to be solo to fight solo, group to fight group, and raid to fight raid. They could also add a system where if someone is engaged no one else can enter the fight. So if i'm solo pvping and engage another player, the random person on my side that runs by cant "help me out" thus making the fight unfair.  Hell they could even had just made it so being an exile actually was a detriment. like if you exile you cant group, or cant form guilds. I mean you exiled why do you need to be on someones side??I think the system was just fine. I expect to lose sometimes and I win sometimes. When i'm out solo questing I expect to get rolled by pvp groups. Yea on peak days (weekends) it sometimes get to the point where i cant quest, but thats just part of the game. Go to a new zone or log and watch another episode of scrubs. woot.oh and as a side note maybe you could make a change where you dont get faction or pvp writ updates if you kill a solo player while grouped (or a group while raided, etc...)edit: as a side note i will probably give this change a chance, but i enjoyed the extra difficulty in being factioned. chances are i will find a new mmo after this comes out.

[Wreatch]

As i understood it, exiles will be able to chose a side and ONCE only not lose their masters.  After that bye bye masters.  Choose wisely!

[Wytie]

<cite>Wreatch@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>As i understood it, exiles will be able to chose a side and ONCE only not lose their masters.  After that bye bye masters.  Choose wisely!</blockquote>Exactly how did you come to that understanding, details plz <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Gimet]

<p>The people who went exile for PvP reasons will be content.</p><p>Those of you who went for raiding, will be punished...as well you should. Not only did you LEAVE city factions for easy-mode raiding, but you insulted them for being lazy bums who couldn't kill a squirrel if it died for them. So hah, you get your just deserts for bailing on the people who could've used your help. Congrats.</p><p>Besides...you all HONESTLY aren't telling me you didn't know that the exile factions had its risks, did you? Stop whining about th elack of Signets and such because you knew about it in th efirst place. I personally do not see any arguments that hold water. You wen exile, you KNEW the effects, and then you whine because you lose your easy-mode? The irony of it all.</p>

[Wreatch]

<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wreatch@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>As i understood it, exiles will be able to chose a side and ONCE only not lose their masters. After that bye bye masters. Choose wisely!</blockquote>Exactly how did you come to that understanding, details plz <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>I have been reading the fan faire blogs, let me see if i can find a link.Sorry for not providing one heh, be right back...

[Darkor]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chris_p_Ratt wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just wish they (the devs) could've come up with something else... like making being a part of a city a real advantage. Exiling a real detriment. Shrug. Interested in hearing your comments. Please feel free. </blockquote>Exiling was always supposed to be a detriment but things like raid gear and mythical epics make it very attractive compared to the negative aspects of it. Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option. As time went on though the raid items made going exile very attractive and from the data I have seen many raiders went that route. Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.</blockquote>Well said Aeralik!Thanks for this change, it will make alot of friends open their subscription again and people who are bored can start something new and fresh. Me and my friends fully support this change.

[Lilflier]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chris_p_Ratt wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just wish they (the devs) could've come up with something else... like making being a part of a city a real advantage. Exiling a real detriment. Shrug. Interested in hearing your comments. Please feel free. </blockquote>Exiling was always supposed to be a detriment but things like raid gear and mythical epics make it very attractive compared to the negative aspects of it.  Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.  As time went on though the raid items made going exile very attractive and from the data I have seen many raiders went that route.   Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.</blockquote>All you guys had to do to make exiling the detriment it was supposed to be, was lower the cost of the pvp gear, and make it as powerful or more than the vp gear and mythicals.   That's it.  If you had done that, no one on the pvp servers would be overly concerened about getting mythicals or vp gear.  It would be nice gravy to do it, but not a requirement to compete.  And...  if pvp gear was more powerful and easier to get, I'm sure the cities would have an easier time raiding to end game.   Let the exiles stay out there...  but why not make pvp gear the best stuff to have on pvp servers.

[Niou]

<cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The people who went exile for PvP reasons will be content.</p><p>Those of you who went for raiding, will be punished...as well you should. Not only did you LEAVE city factions for easy-mode raiding, but you insulted them for being lazy bums who couldn't kill a squirrel if it died for them. So hah, you get your just deserts for bailing on the people who could've used your help. Congrats.</p><p>Besides...you all HONESTLY aren't telling me you didn't know that the exile factions had its risks, did you? Stop whining about th elack of Signets and such because you knew about it in th efirst place. I personally do not see any arguments that hold water. You wen exile, you KNEW the effects, and then you whine because you lose your easy-mode? The irony of it all.</p></blockquote>Those who used the options avaliable to them in the game, took the sacrafice of scorn from their fellow players, lost all PvP gear, all the comforts of the city, and use of signets...should be punished because they did what you weren't capable of? That has to be the most unintelligent argument I've ever seen.Also, I find it comical that you still sit here and call it easy mode raiding, when the entire time you were asking for, and now have recieved, an even easier mode of raiding.One last thing, The factions are lazy, especially on Venekor. A Qeynos based guild has gotten to VP and killed Druusk on Nagafen, while the Q guilds on Venekor can't even beat Doomcoil.This is seriously all hilarious, the most pathetic players in PvP are getting their way for throwing a tantrum and because of it, they suddenly think that exiles also need to be punished for their accomplishments.

[Chris_p_Ratt]

<p>Aeralik,</p><p>Thank you for the response. I agree with how you have framed the problem, and I don't disagree that some Exiles will indeed choose to go back to the cities. I was wondering how many, how soon, and to what effect (the rapidity of change). </p><p>When I talk about how I wish the devs could've come up with something else, my concern is in the HOW things are being fixed. I wish (and you know far better what was discussed in these regards) that some other option would have presented itself rather than the all classes to all cities. </p><p>I am a big fan of "playalism" (a game played and framed with as much realism as possible - why I prefer EQ2 over WoW btw). Obviously, the fantasy genre means that we have to suspend some disbelief when it comes to the game, but there have been some previously set "rules" for PVP servers. Paladin good. Shadowknight evil. Etc. Period. </p><p>While I absolutely hope the (in the EQ2 world anways) leaders of Freeport and Qeynos would see the disparity in power of the upstart Exiles compared to their stalwart followers, I don't "feel like" (and this is only a feel thing) they would allow evil or good within their respective cities - especially with the long drawn out conflict. </p><p>I would think they would support their citizens by other means to allow their citizenship to mean something in the larger scheme of things. Support via skills, spells, abilities only available to Freeps or Q's to defeat the epic mobs (or Exile foes) standing in the way of their followers' advancement. Epic/PVP server only abilities (or an Epic AA line available to only FP/Q) would have allowed the FPs/Q's the ability to compete. </p><p>I believe most city players want to be able to compete. To be able to overcome the Epic mobs for their mythical on their own. To be able to make a difference without a smarmy Paladin standing shoulder to shoulder with a nefarious Necromancer. But, most players are also tired of getting auto-attacked to death by Exiles who have, whether they realize it or not, have taken the quick and easy. </p><p>My wish is that city folk would have been rewarded for their standing the line - rather than copping to the path of least resistance. </p><p>I don't wanna join em... I wanna beat em. </p>

[Wytie]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>  Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.</blockquote><p>What do you plan on doing to give exile guilds insentives to go back to the city, at the cost of mostly everything they have worked for?</p><p>Will you allow exiles to go back to the citys with their current masters once?</p><p>Will you allow exile guilds to move with there players back to the citys without have to re-level and re-name a new guild?</p><p>Or will you give alot of people a brand new reason to /quit</p><p>Choose wisely my friend!</p>

[Saintedone]

<p>HOW stupid.....</p><p>I love it, there are at least 10 threads stating that exiles are a faction - THE THIRD FACTION. You guys decided to leave a faction so you could be better than the city factions. You guys claimed over and over how you took the hard way to be able to see end game. You managed to accomplish great things from the cave that is Haven, while us city folk suffered and made our way the best we could. You guys get the raid gear and we have to be better players to compete with your gear, period. The frustration of being in a city guild has been one were a single exile group could take out most x2s and then run to there cave and be safe from anyone.</p><p>This thread is now saying we will come back to the cities but on our terms - gimmi a break you n00b. Can I please keep my masters, and if they took your raid gear as well when you came crawling back to the city factions you would be whining about that as well. I got news for you - if you dont come back to the cities your just gonna end up hiding in Haven for sure because when the cities get geared out theres gonna be some payback. So loose your masters and crawl back to a city now. Oh and bye-bye titles. I have scene player after player move out of the cities and have endured the exspansions with exiles becoming stronger and stronger. Being asked over and over to become an exile - its the only way your ever gonna see end game. I SAID NO and worked may butt off that much harder to farm that one more peace of gear, payed that much more for a master. I am so happy today I feel vindicated from that crazy update that turned Haven from a cave to an outpost city. </p><p>Bottum line is the cities are coming back and with all the advantages you had plus the city bonus's to boot. That cave is gonna die and become the cave it always was designed for.  There will be some hold backs of corse but it wont be long before one by one you all come back because theres no reason to be there other than your master spells and your titles.</p>

[Wytie]

<cite>Saintedone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>HOW stupid.....</p><p>I love it, there are at least 10 threads stating that exiles are a faction - THE THIRD FACTION. You guys decided to leave a faction so you could be better than the city factions. You guys claimed over and over how you took the hard way to be able to see end game. You managed to accomplish great things from the cave that is Haven, while us city folk suffered and made our way the best we could. You guys get the raid gear and we have to be better players to compete with your gear, period. The frustration of being in a city guild has been one were a single exile group could take out most x2s and then run to there cave and be safe from anyone.</p><p>This thread is now saying we will come back to the cities but on our terms - gimmi a break you n00b. Can I please keep my masters, and if they took your raid gear as well when you came crawling back to the city factions you would be whining about that as well. I got news for you - if you dont come back to the cities your just gonna end up hiding in Haven for sure because when the cities get geared out theres gonna be some payback. So loose your masters and crawl back to a city now. Oh and bye-bye titles. I have scene player after player move out of the cities and have endured the exspansions with exiles becoming stronger and stronger. Being asked over and over to become an exile - its the only way your ever gonna see end game. I SAID NO and worked may butt off that much harder to farm that one more peace of gear, payed that much more for a master. I am so happy today I feel vindicated from that crazy update that turned Haven from a cave to an outpost city. </p><p>Bottum line is the cities are coming back and with all the advantages you had plus the city bonus's to boot. That cave is gonna die and become the cave it always was designed for.  There will be some hold backs of corse but it wont be long before one by one you all come back because theres no reason to be there other than your master spells and your titles.</p></blockquote><p>You dont seem to get it, so its not really worth even trying. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[ChaoticVisions]

In my honest opinion, I don't think either of the factions care all that much about "end game raiding" or experiencing the high end content. Everyone wants their overpowered mythical to PvP with, plain and simple. The best way to fix this for city factions would have been to simply make the mythical available on the PvP merchants in some fashion for a ridiculous amount of tokens. I seriously don't think the majority of 80's on Nagafen care about raiding all day. Everyone just wants their shiny mythical. Why not just put the myth up for like 3,000 tokens or something crazy like that? then everyone wins. You PvP enough you get your myth, or you exile and you raid and get your myth.

[Tamar]

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never said i went exile to PvP. I exiled to RAID, FFA PvP was just the gravy for me.</blockquote>Why would you have exiled to Raid?  I thought you have been yelling about how all classes aren't needed?And also yelling about how it is the skill of the players that exile has, and so again why would you return to the city?on another note...  ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You (exiles) are already planning your retreat!  After all of the verbage you have spewed?Nice.

[Niou]

Ironic- Someone from vox talking about accomplishments, shut up.I think its hilarious that all these people believe having all classes is simply going to hand them raid gear and mythicals. All the accomplishments of exiled guilds are meaningless because they did it with all classes. I honestly can't wait for you people to be geared up, so we can smash you without you making excuses.Also, It's not about retreating, there were benefits and draw backs to exiling, one of the two large benefits are now gone, and with the guild halls and everything else being located in a city, it's no longer logical to stay exiled. I know that's really hard for some of you to grasp.

[Niou]

<cite>Tamarah wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never said i went exile to PvP. I exiled to RAID, FFA PvP was just the gravy for me.</blockquote>Why would you have exiled to Raid? I thought you have been yelling about how all classes aren't needed?And also yelling about how it is the skill of the players that exile has, and so again why would you return to the city?on another note... ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You (exiles) are already planning your retreat! After all of the verbage you have spewed?Nice.</blockquote>You seem extra slow, so i'll spell it out for you.Exile = All classes and FFA PvPCity = PvP items, Signets, Houses, Guild Halls.Now..try and stay with me for this next part.If City = All classes, pvp items, signets, houses, and Guild Halls. There is hardly a reason to stay exile, is there? understand yet?

[Saintedone]

<p>I think if most guild leaders in exile think about what is best for there guilds they will come to the conclusion that they should pick a city and get there asap start farming masters and buying everything off the brokers. </p><p>IMO, they should not keep any master spells, it is not fair for the city guilds to have to compete for members when "THE ALMIGHTY EXILE GUILD" shows up and starts grabbing players from any guild they want because they can get in VP. I think the right thing is to hit them with the wall that is master spells, this will be a temporary set back but also give the city faction a chance at moving forward into the raid zones and give us a few weeks to get into the zones weve havent been able to get into.</p><p>Once we have this short time to equalize and it will be a short window I beleave those guilds will prosper in the cities and we will all be on the same page.</p><p>Just my 2cp</p><p>Saintz</p>

[Niou]

<cite>Saintedone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think if most guild leaders in exile think about what is best for there guilds they will come to the conclusion that they should pick a city and get there asap start farming masters and buying everything off the brokers. </p><p>IMO, they should not keep any master spells, it is not fair for the city guilds to have to compete for members when "THE ALMIGHTY EXILE GUILD" shows up and starts grabbing players from any guild they want because they can get in VP. I think the right thing is to hit them with the wall that is master spells, this will be a temporary set back but also give the city faction a chance at moving forward into the raid zones and give us a few weeks to get into the zones weve havent been able to get into.</p><p>Once we have this short time to equalize and it will be a short window I beleave those guilds will prosper in the cities and we will all be on the same page.</p><p>Just my 2cp</p><p>Saintz</p></blockquote>That argument would work, except those of you that actually have skill in the factions, already have access to VP. There is no time needed to "balance" things out. Those of you that actually deserve Mythicals and raid gear are already at the cusp of victory. Those of you that have spent you're time doing nothing but crying on the forums should work with what you have, nothingExiles raided for months to accomplish what they have and to gain the masters they possess, they should not be punished for using an aspect of the game as it was intended. Aeralik already stated that they knew you could raid with all classes in exile, it was just the new raid gear and mythicals that really brought attention to it.

[Izzypop]

Onyx went exile for the sole reason of FFA PvP.  One day another guild (I believe it was Kraken, but I'm not 100% sure) on the same alignment was in a race with Onyx for a contested mob.  Things got heated, nasty things were said, and they were unable to handle it in the most civilized way possible....beating the crap out of each other.  So Onyx exiled for the sole reason of being able to kill anybody who got in the way of them pulling a contested mob.  The Onyx/VV split wasn't totally along old guild lines so I don't know which of those guilds will stay, maybe both, but at least one of those guilds will stay in exile because they are exiles for life who never again want players on their own faction able to contest them for a mob without fighting them in PvP for it.  That's the difference between a hardcore exile guild and mercenaries who pick whatever side offers them the best deal.

[Niou]

<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote>Onyx went exile for the sole reason of FFA PvP. One day another guild (I believe it was Kraken, but I'm not 100% sure) on the same alignment was in a race with Onyx for a contested mob. Things got heated, nasty things were said, and they were unable to handle it in the most civilized way possible....beating the crap out of each other. So Onyx exiled for the sole reason of being able to kill anybody who got in the way of them pulling a contested mob. The Onyx/VV split wasn't totally along old guild lines so I don't know which of those guilds will stay, maybe both, but at least one of those guilds will stay in exile because they are exiles for life who never again want players on their own faction able to contest them for a mob without fighting them in PvP for it. That's the difference between a hardcore exile guild and mercenaries who pick whatever side offers them the best deal.</blockquote>Umm...if I can get the title Mercenary, i'll stay exile.

[Saintedone]

<p> Oh we understand completely on vox about accomplishments, dont think we dont have a talent pool on a sever were its hard to find 50players on in a city and only half of them in T8 and still being able to move forward as a guild no alience not having the right classes on. We still do our best to get it done everyday on vox. Have you tried raiding T8 with a full group of fighters and only one dirge in an 20 man raid - we have.</p><p> We understand that CoH started from an old alt guild on FEB 7th 08 guild level 16ish, and has hit level 80 as a guild fighting tooth and nail for the right players to be on to do anything constructive in game. Dont come in here and bash vox because were not on a juggernot server we rely on what we have and still move forward into the end game. I know you can sit there and be judgementle about our server but weve all chosen the server and we all want the same things on the server you guys want on yours.</p><p> There are more active players on Vox who are exile then there are active players in both cities combind, this is the server we chose and I am proud of what we do everyday. When Rekoning (an exile guild) got its first mythicles the hole server was happy for them, but they to now have to decide how there gonna go. Im sure they will have the hardest time choosing there city because they were the first to try raiding as exiles on Vox and they have been the most successful so far /gratz Rekoning. </p><p>Anyway please dont bash the few guilds and players in Vox who try everyday to catch up to you all on your BIG server. We will be welcoming the exiles back home to the cities.</p><p>Saintz</p>

[Izzypop]

<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote> Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.</blockquote><p>What do you plan on doing to give exile guilds insentives to go back to the city, at the cost of mostly everything they have worked for?</p><p>Will you allow exiles to go back to the citys with their current masters once?</p><p>Will you allow exile guilds to move with there players back to the citys without have to re-level and re-name a new guild?</p><p>Or will you give alot of people a brand new reason to /quit</p><p>Choose wisely my friend!</p></blockquote>You get to keep your title, your class thanks to the change, all your end game raid gear, and mythical when you return to a city.  Even after the downgrade from Master1's to Adept3s members of VA who have been clearing VP for months are still going to be in much better shape than city folk who never made it past doomcoil.  What you will loose can be replaced on the market, what you have gained in exile can not be bought.   End game raids drop a lot of plat and the change does not go live for a while.  Just save up from a few raids, do one less guild split, and buy your people raws to make adept 3s.I suspect some exile guilds will return.  If Nexus returns they will likely reactivate Europa, Ressurrection can reactivate Insurrection, and VA could reactivage gray wolves.  By reactivating the old guild that an exile guild came from the guild is most of the way to 80 already.  Between raids, PvP, and the new writ system on the docks where you can do eight 14k writs at a time in JW regainging a few lost levels will be a cakewalk.The glass is more than half full here.  Besides if it wasn't for the devs opening up all classes you would never get to see a guild hall because you would still need to be exiled to raid end game content in the next expansion.

[Niou]

<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote> Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.</blockquote><p>What do you plan on doing to give exile guilds insentives to go back to the city, at the cost of mostly everything they have worked for?</p><p>Will you allow exiles to go back to the citys with their current masters once?</p><p>Will you allow exile guilds to move with there players back to the citys without have to re-level and re-name a new guild?</p><p>Or will you give alot of people a brand new reason to /quit</p><p>Choose wisely my friend!</p></blockquote>You get to keep your title, your class thanks to the change, all your end game raid gear, and mythical when you return to a city. Even after the downgrade from Master1's to Adept3s members of VA who have been clearing VP for months are still going to be in much better shape than city folk who never made it past doomcoil. What you will loose can be replaced on the market, what you have gained in exile can not be bought. End game raids drop a lot of plat and the change does not go live for a while. Just save up from a few raids, do one less guild split, and buy your people raws to make adept 3s.I suspect some exile guilds will return. If Nexus returns they will likely reactivate Europa, Ressurrection can reactivate Insurrection, and VA could reactivage gray wolves. By reactivating the old guild that an exile guild came from the guild is most of the way to 80 already. Between raids, PvP, and the new writ system on the docks where you can do eight 14k writs at a time in JW regainging a few lost levels will be a cakewalk.The glass is more than half full here. Besides if it wasn't for the devs opening up all classes you would never get to see a guild hall because you would still need to be exiled to raid end game content in the next expansion.</blockquote>Exiles don't need to be punished because their faction counterparts couldn't hack it. Yes, Qeynos on Venekor is stuck on Doomcoil. With Purity on Druusk, it shows thats the result of a lack in dedication and skill, period. It doesn't concern us at all that we're in better shape then the factions, because thats the result of their own laziness. With the exception of my Mythical and my bow, I have 1 piece of VP gear. My boots, they sit in my display slot because their useless and Tramplers boots from PR are superior. What that means is, All of my gear, the best gear, is obtained in the lower tiers that any faction guild is able to access easily.Adept III's can't be compared to Masters, and the loss of 19 T8 Masters (in my case), because SoE decided to screw over the one benefit of being exile just isnt right. IE: If this change had been in the game from the start of PvP servers as it should have been, we never would have left the cities to begin with. With that said, our accomplishments in Exile should not be grounds for punishment, as we were only using exile as it was intended. Nobody even cared about all of this until Mythicals came into the picture.Also, not sure how it is on Nagafen, but what we'll lose on Venekor can not be replaced on the market. There hasn't been a Paladin master that I need on sale for over 4 months. While the same freaking 4 masters that always drop, continue to be listed for sale. But thats besides the point.The situation here is, you're claiming all of this is some kind of balancing effect for the factions to catch up the exiles, that simply isnt the case. The Faction guilds that dedicated themselves to raiding are already in VP and will have their mythicals shorly. They are already geared just like the rest of us.

[Saintedone]

<p>City factions have been punished since KoS, since exiles have been able to hit and run, hide in there cave untill there geared to the point of slaughter and go out and stop other factions from moving forward. </p><p>Think about all the threads of WE NEED BALANCE.</p><p>Well this will go along way towards group/raid balance. </p><p>As far as your masters, its a momentary set back when you have gear that makes up for any loss in damage. You are also not being punished you are being welcomed back to the cities. You have the oppertunity for all the city faction bonus's, new guild halls, and PVP gear. </p><p>IMO this is SOE fixxing the mistake they made, when they supported the exile city instaed of making all classes available in the first place. I feel for your loss, but I havebeen on the otherside of this arguement from the begining. </p><p>If the only thing your worried about is your masters, thats pritty selfish when you think of the total benifits to the game comunity for ALL. This update makes the game better for all players day one, you get city bonus's and gear we get all classes.</p><p>Saintz</p>

[Gimet]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The people who went exile for PvP reasons will be content.</p><p>Those of you who went for raiding, will be punished...as well you should. Not only did you LEAVE city factions for easy-mode raiding, but you insulted them for being lazy bums who couldn't kill a squirrel if it died for them. So hah, you get your just deserts for bailing on the people who could've used your help. Congrats.</p><p>Besides...you all HONESTLY aren't telling me you didn't know that the exile factions had its risks, did you? Stop whining about th elack of Signets and such because you knew about it in th efirst place. I personally do not see any arguments that hold water. You wen exile, you KNEW the effects, and then you whine because you lose your easy-mode? The irony of it all.</p></blockquote>Those who used the options avaliable to them in the game, took the sacrafice of scorn from their fellow players, lost all PvP gear, all the comforts of the city, and use of signets...should be punished because they did what you weren't capable of? That has to be the most unintelligent argument I've ever seen.Also, I find it comical that you still sit here and call it easy mode raiding, when the entire time you were asking for, and now have recieved, an even easier mode of raiding.One last thing, The factions are lazy, especially on Venekor. A Qeynos based guild has gotten to VP and killed Druusk on Nagafen, while the Q guilds on Venekor can't even beat Doomcoil.This is seriously all hilarious, the most pathetic players in PvP are getting their way for throwing a tantrum and because of it, they suddenly think that exiles also need to be punished for their accomplishments.</blockquote><p>"Exiling was always supposed to be a detriment but things like raid gear and mythical epics make it very attractive compared to the negative aspects of it. Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option. As time went on though the raid items made going exile very attractive and from the data I have seen many raiders went that route. Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds."</p><p>-<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/user/profile.m?user_id=242118" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><b>Aeralik</b></a> posted this not long before me.</p><p>Where is your detriment in exile atm? Surely not FFA, you're all 80. Oh boo hoo, lost Signets....gain mythicals?</p><p>No</p><p>Your exile punishment starts now. And I'll have you know I didn't whine throughout this whole thing. I've constantly been AGAINST all classes all factions. And for you to call factions LAZY because people like you bailed when things got hard, is hilarious to me. "Dang, I want a mythical and it's taking too long to get it. I've heard exile is easy"</p><p>Right, and I'M hilarious. And that "option" you chose could technically be called an exploit at this point. I have no respect for exiles who left for easier raiding. I continue to have respect for exiles who go for one of the initial points of exile....FFA and challenges. Those people, are not being punished for exploiting.</p>

[Lodor]

<p>Araris, you may want to get a new arguement to back up the qs on venekor sucking thing.  All the raid guilds on q side either went exile or left the server with storm being the last real raid guild q side venekor had some months ago.</p><p> Odds are if storm would of stayed they would of beat Purity to VP, hell maybe even tribunal could of been there if they wouldnt of had internal issues also when they moved to nagafen.</p><p>The problem most factions have is not enough 100% dedicated people to fill a full raid force numerious times a week. Most of the real raiders are in exile on one of the 3 pvp servers. Having all classes or not wont make one bit a difference since it will most likely still be the same people that want to raid but dont put in the real effort that is needed.</p>

[Warr]

<p>As most of our members are saying, I will go where the guild decides to go, but I would rather stay exiled. On venekor we have the whole faction to ourselves almost. There is just so much freedom there.</p><p>The only thing that's tempting is the guid halls. The signets and pvp gear i could care less about. And even the guild halls is just a bragging right/luxury.</p>

[Izzypop]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote> Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.</blockquote><p>What do you plan on doing to give exile guilds insentives to go back to the city, at the cost of mostly everything they have worked for?</p><p>Will you allow exiles to go back to the citys with their current masters once?</p><p>Will you allow exile guilds to move with there players back to the citys without have to re-level and re-name a new guild?</p><p>Or will you give alot of people a brand new reason to /quit</p><p>Choose wisely my friend!</p></blockquote>You get to keep your title, your class thanks to the change, all your end game raid gear, and mythical when you return to a city. Even after the downgrade from Master1's to Adept3s members of VA who have been clearing VP for months are still going to be in much better shape than city folk who never made it past doomcoil. What you will loose can be replaced on the market, what you have gained in exile can not be bought. End game raids drop a lot of plat and the change does not go live for a while. Just save up from a few raids, do one less guild split, and buy your people raws to make adept 3s.I suspect some exile guilds will return. If Nexus returns they will likely reactivate Europa, Ressurrection can reactivate Insurrection, and VA could reactivage gray wolves. By reactivating the old guild that an exile guild came from the guild is most of the way to 80 already. Between raids, PvP, and the new writ system on the docks where you can do eight 14k writs at a time in JW regainging a few lost levels will be a cakewalk.The glass is more than half full here. Besides if it wasn't for the devs opening up all classes you would never get to see a guild hall because you would still need to be exiled to raid end game content in the next expansion.</blockquote>Exiles don't need to be punished because their faction counterparts couldn't hack it. Yes, Qeynos on Venekor is stuck on Doomcoil. With Purity on Druusk, it shows thats the result of a lack in dedication and skill, period. It doesn't concern us at all that we're in better shape then the factions, because thats the result of their own laziness. With the exception of my Mythical and my bow, I have 1 piece of VP gear. My boots, they sit in my display slot because their useless and Tramplers boots from PR are superior. What that means is, All of my gear, the best gear, is obtained in the lower tiers that any faction guild is able to access easily.Adept III's can't be compared to Masters, and the loss of 19 T8 Masters (in my case), because SoE decided to screw over the one benefit of being exile just isnt right. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span>IE: If this change had been in the game from the start of PvP servers as it should have been, we never would have left the cities to begin with <span style="color: #ff0000;">Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span>. With that said, our accomplishments in Exile should not be grounds for punishment, as we were only using exile as it was intended <span style="color: #ff0000;">Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span>. Nobody even cared about all of this until Mythicals came into the picture.Also, not sure how it is on Nagafen, but what we'll lose on Venekor can not be replaced on the market. There hasn't been a Paladin master that I need on sale for over 4 months. While the same freaking 4 masters that always drop, continue to be listed for sale. But thats besides the point.The situation here is, you're claiming all of this is some kind of balancing effect for the factions to catch up the exiles, that simply isnt the case. The Faction guilds that dedicated themselves to raiding are already in VP and will have their mythicals shorly. They are already geared just like the rest of us.</blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chris_p_Ratt wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just wish they (the devs) could've come up with something else... like making being a part of a city a real advantage. Exiling a real detriment. Shrug. Interested in hearing your comments. Please feel free. </blockquote>Exiling was always supposed to be a detriment but things like raid gear and mythical epics make it very attractive compared to the negative aspects of it.<span style="color: #ff0000;"> Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span> As time went on though the raid items made going exile very attractive and from the data I have seen many raiders went that route. Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.</blockquote>Sorry about your masters, but it's not punishment of exiles.  It's not about exiles because there is nothing wrong with haven.  City factions being crippled is the problem.  City factions were crippled from the start running a race of the paralympics to see who would win.  Along came exile with LU24 and all of the sudden there was a faction that wasn't crippled.  After the faction with 2 working legs beat the cripples in the wheelchairs in a race 5 times in a row SOE finally took a close look at the rules of the race, and decided to give the crippled factions 2 working legs.   Your faction still works, you still have 2 working legs, and nothing will change for exile after the patch.  The only thing that will change is now both exile and city factions will have 2 working legs.  Would you like to continue to tell the devs that city factions should go back in the wheelchair so you can always win the race?

[Tamar]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Exiles raided for months to accomplish what they have and to gain the masters they possess, they should not be punished for using an aspect of the game as it was intended. Aeralik already stated that they knew you could raid with all classes in exile, it was just the new raid gear and mythicals that really brought attention to it.</blockquote>Losing your masters should be a given.You are not being "punished" any more than any other player who passed through Exile and lost their masters upon coming to a new city using an aspect of the game as it was intended.If you were being kicked out of Haven I might agree, but you are not.  You are free to stay there and keep all of your masters.  Enjoy...

[Dap]

<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote> Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.</blockquote><p>What do you plan on doing to give exile guilds insentives to go back to the city, at the cost of mostly everything they have worked for?</p><p>Will you allow exiles to go back to the citys with their current masters once?</p><p>Will you allow exile guilds to move with there players back to the citys without have to re-level and re-name a new guild?</p><p>Or will you give alot of people a brand new reason to /quit</p><p>Choose wisely my friend!</p></blockquote>You get to keep your title, your class thanks to the change, all your end game raid gear, and mythical when you return to a city. Even after the downgrade from Master1's to Adept3s members of VA who have been clearing VP for months are still going to be in much better shape than city folk who never made it past doomcoil. What you will loose can be replaced on the market, what you have gained in exile can not be bought. End game raids drop a lot of plat and the change does not go live for a while. Just save up from a few raids, do one less guild split, and buy your people raws to make adept 3s.I suspect some exile guilds will return. If Nexus returns they will likely reactivate Europa, Ressurrection can reactivate Insurrection, and VA could reactivage gray wolves. By reactivating the old guild that an exile guild came from the guild is most of the way to 80 already. Between raids, PvP, and the new writ system on the docks where you can do eight 14k writs at a time in JW regainging a few lost levels will be a cakewalk.The glass is more than half full here. Besides if it wasn't for the devs opening up all classes you would never get to see a guild hall because you would still need to be exiled to raid end game content in the next expansion.</blockquote>Tier 8 raids do drop alot of plat.  T8 masters however cost alot of plat.  The average price for masters I've seen on the broker hover around 30-60p depending on the quality and desireability of said master.  Assuming each raid net me 5p, and the average prices of masters was 50p (makes math easy, im lazy, hence i exiled) it would take me 10 raids for 1 master.  If I attended all 5 raids a week that would be 2 weeks for one master.  I have 21 master abilities I use to replace.  I also strive to have enough masters to be on the world wide leaderboards for defiler masters, placing me at 14th WW.  I dont feel the market is capable of replaceing these masters (atleast on venekor) before the next expansion comes out that raises the level cap and makes them obsolete.I dont believe a change in gameplay such as this to fix an unintended side effect of being exiled and raiding should cause me to lose masters if my guild did decide to move back to a city.  But, I'm biased =)Dapub

[Paikis]

<cite>Tamarah wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never said i went exile to PvP. I exiled to RAID, FFA PvP was just the gravy for me.</blockquote>Why would you have exiled to Raid?  I thought you have been yelling about how all classes aren't needed?And also yelling about how it is the skill of the players that exile has, and so again why would you return to the city?on another note...  ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You (exiles) are already planning your retreat!  After all of the verbage you have spewed?Nice.</blockquote><p>You don't need all classes to raid. Having them makes it easier, but they aren't a requirement. I've said this all along.</p><p>I tried raiding in a faction. I tried it for a couple of months before I finally got sick of the lack of progress and exiled. When the Troubador is third or fourth on your DPS parse, your raids aren't going anywhere. Wiping in Tomb of Thuuga for 3 straight weeks, taking 30% of our armor just to kill the doorway mobs. Yeah, faction raiding sucks because there are too many n00bs.</p><p>I exiled to join the people with the right mind set for raiding. I didn't do it because they had access to all classes.</p>

[Wilde_Night]

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, faction raiding sucks because there are too many n00bs. <p>I exiled to join the people with the right mind set for raiding. I didn't do it because they had access to all classes.</p></blockquote><p>We're getting better!  Law of the Wild and all.  Those n00bs (weak) keep getting eaten by the meanies and the non-n00bs (strong) continue on to progress.  I know Freeport on Venekor is soooooo close to gaining VP access.   Any week now the Freeport Raid Alliance or the Freeport Raidcom will overcome the road blocks.  It is just taking us a little longer.</p><p>It does make me sad, though, to see friends who left for exile - for whatever reason - may be forced to make the choice and come back.  So many people get into the "Exiles suck" mentality and seem to sever the friendships once these people cross the line.  I am dreading the possible drama that may ensue.</p>

[Tamar]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, It's not about retreating, there were benefits and draw backs to exiling, one of the two <span style="font-size: x-large;"><b>large</b></span> benefits are now gone, and with the guild halls and everything else being located in a city, it's no longer logical to stay exiled. I know that's really hard for some of you to grasp.</blockquote>Wait.  Stop everything.I thought that having all of the classes wasn't that big of a deal?Wow.  Once the honey pot dries up the tune changes...  Could you even type that with a straight face?My guess is that VA better make a move together.  It would stink to be a guildless 80 with no spells.On a related note, I think it will be very nice to get back to a relatively 2 faction game.

[Tamar]

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>I exiled to join the people with the right mind set for raiding. I didn't do it because they had access to all classes.</p></blockquote>Then stay exile.

[liveja]

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I exiled to join the people with the right mind set for raiding. </p></blockquote>What, exactly, prevented City guilds from having the "right mind set for raiding?" I can understand it on a PvE server, where there aren't really any factions at all worth talking about, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this assertion on a PvP server.

[Izzypop]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I exiled to join the people with the right mind set for raiding. </p></blockquote>What, exactly, prevented City guilds from having the "right mind set for raiding?" I can understand it on a PvE server, where there aren't really any factions at all worth talking about, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this assertion on a PvP server.</blockquote>VA insists there is a shortage of dedicated raiders on Venekor, and said dedication is the reason why they have succeeded where the raid alliances have failed.  On Nagafen 7 guilds are currently in VP 2 Qeynos, 1 Freeport, and 4 exile with the 4 exiled guilds clearing it on a weekly basis.  There is no lack of dedicated raiders on Nagafen.  VA still has access to all classes and the dedicated raiders.  Nothing has nerfed exile.  VA doesn't see it, but this is the class balance equivalent of Brigands protesting against Summoners getting some dev love because they enjoy the easy kills from helpless summoners.

[Sorffats]

<cite>GrandMasterUb wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm disappointed in this change. The factioned guilds are capable of getting all the same gear as the exiles its just taking us a little longer. Which is fine considering the next expansion isnt even out. I think the real issue with the pvp situation is that it ends up being group vs player, or raid vs player (raid vs group, etc..). In fights where there is a factioned raid and an exiled raid the fights can actually be relatively fair. My guild is capable of fighting exiled groups and raids and winning sometimes losing sometimes.I think what should have been changed to make pvp complainers happy was add a system where if you are grouped you can only engage another group or higher (higher = raid). Therefore you have to be solo to fight solo, group to fight group, and raid to fight raid. They could also add a system where if someone is engaged no one else can enter the fight. So if i'm solo pvping and engage another player, the random person on my side that runs by cant "help me out" thus making the fight unfair.  Hell they could even had just made it so being an exile actually was a detriment. like if you exile you cant group, or cant form guilds. I mean you exiled why do you need to be on someones side??I think the system was just fine. I expect to lose sometimes and I win sometimes. When i'm out solo questing I expect to get rolled by pvp groups. Yea on peak days (weekends) it sometimes get to the point where i cant quest, but thats just part of the game. Go to a new zone or log and watch another episode of scrubs. woot.oh and as a side note maybe you could make a change where you dont get faction or pvp writ updates if you kill a solo player while grouped (or a group while raided, etc...)edit: as a side note i will probably give this change a chance, but i enjoyed the extra difficulty in being factioned. chances are i will find a new mmo after this comes out.</blockquote><p><i>"The factioned guilds are capable of getting all the same gear as the exiles its just taking us a little longer."</i>  That is part of the problem.  Exileds are reaping all of the rewards of the "end game" before any new expansions are even close to being out.  The city factions only get close at best, and most of the time, end up not finishing or finishing up when the next expansion is already out while exileds are starting to reap the rewards for the new expansion.   Having all classes available to exileds enabled that to happen.  As we have seen, there are only a handful of factioned guilds that are just barely in VP and the new expansion is right around the corner.   As we bust our tails to get in there, get what we can before the next expansion is out, exileds simply just wait for the new expansion.   It's just plain and simple unbalanced this way.</p><p><i>"I think what should have been changed to make pvp complainers happy was add a system where if you are grouped you can only engage another group or higher (higher = raid). Therefore you have to be solo to fight solo, group to fight group, and raid to fight raid."</i>  The problem with this is that then you end up having people out in raid force but not raided and probably mostly not even grouped.  So two  groups (x2) of purity see's two groups (x2) of betrayed out (or visa versa, this is hypothetical), purity decides to split their groups off into some trios, duos, maybe a few solo's.  Get the jump in on the betrayed group because the betrayed group can't attack them since they are not in a group/raid.  There would be so much programming involved in this, that it wouldn't be worth the detriment to pvp in EQ2.  PVP would be history, and the several hundred thousands of us that pay to play pvp would all cancel our subscriptions because pvp just went from kill your enemy to hey, let's go to the arena.  Yes, pvp is sometimes unfair when it comes to numbers balancing.  I'd prefer a certain writ giver moved or a certain evac/revive location moved.  If I am out in a group and I see a solo Q or X, you can bet I'm not willing to say, "Oh hey, he's solo, let's not kill him".</p><p><i>"oh and as a side note maybe you could make a change where you dont get faction or pvp writ updates if you kill a solo player while grouped (or a group while raided, etc...)"</i>  All that this accomplishes is make already rediculously time consuming and difficult to get pvp gear more difficult and time consuming to get.  If you are Q (or exiled, since it became a faction), you are my enemy.  Period.  That is what pvp is about.  The order of the Lucanic Knights isn't going to care if I rolled you while you were solo with my group of 6.  You wan't structured group vs group pvp, go play Guild Wars.</p>

[Sightless]

<p>Exiles should not be allowed to return with Masters, because the cities will lose theirs changing to a new class.</p><p>Exiles should be allowed PvP gear, without being able to update writs by killing other exile.</p><p>Exiles should have access to city type Insignias.</p><p>Exiles should remain the third faction they said they were with all the penalties associated with switching sides, just like the OTHER Factions.</p><p>Exiles said for months they exiled for the Free For All PvP, and that was not taken away from them.</p>

[Paikis]

<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Exiles said for months they exiled for the Free For All PvP, and that was not taken away from them.</p></blockquote>Some exiles did, i personally exiled to see end game content and have said so from day dot.

[Khrunk]

<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I exiled to join the people with the right mind set for raiding. </p></blockquote>What, exactly, prevented City guilds from having the "right mind set for raiding?" I can understand it on a PvE server, where there aren't really any factions at all worth talking about, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this assertion on a PvP server.</blockquote>VA insists there is a shortage of dedicated raiders on Venekor, and said dedication is the reason why they have succeeded where the raid alliances have failed. On Nagafen 7 guilds are currently in VP 2 Qeynos, 1 Freeport, and 4 exile with the 4 exiled guilds clearing it on a weekly basis. There is no lack of dedicated raiders on Nagafen. VA still has access to all classes and the dedicated raiders. Nothing has nerfed exile. VA doesn't see it, but this is the class balance equivalent of Brigands protesting against Summoners getting some dev love because they enjoy the easy kills from helpless summoners.</blockquote>havent you raided in an alliance before you exiled to dom?

[Geinoch]

<p>Aeralik:</p><p>"Exiling was always supposed to be a detriment but things like raid gear and mythical epics make it very attractive compared to the negative aspects of it..."</p><p> Funny, so why exiled can even create a guild?</p><p>Aeralik:</p><p>"Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option."</p><p>Funny, so why does exiled can't fight each other outside of the heaven? THAT is free for all.</p><p>I think Exiled was a mistake... The betrayal quest should have been direct. You make the few Quests, you get kick out of your city... You go take the citizenship of the opposite city, you change your class. Tadaaaa! You got your little Evil Froglok       period</p><p>(sorry for my english)</p>

[Dap]

<cite>Geinoch wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Aeralik:</p><p>"Exiling was always supposed to be a detriment but things like raid gear and mythical epics make it very attractive compared to the negative aspects of it..."</p><p> Funny, so why exiled can even create a guild?</p><p>Aeralik:</p><p>"Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option."</p><p>Funny, so why does exiled can't fight each other outside of the heaven? THAT is free for all.</p><p>I think Exiled was a mistake... The betrayal quest should have been direct. You make the few Quests, you get kick out of your city... You go take the citizenship of the opposite city, you change your class. Tadaaaa! You got your little Evil Froglok period</p><p>(sorry for my english)</p></blockquote>exiles can fight each other outside of the haven

[Khrunk]

<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote> Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.</blockquote><p>What do you plan on doing to give exile guilds insentives to go back to the city, at the cost of mostly everything they have worked for?</p><p>Will you allow exiles to go back to the citys with their current masters once?</p><p>Will you allow exile guilds to move with there players back to the citys without have to re-level and re-name a new guild?</p><p>Or will you give alot of people a brand new reason to /quit</p><p>Choose wisely my friend!</p></blockquote>You get to keep your title, your class thanks to the change, all your end game raid gear, and mythical when you return to a city. Even after the downgrade from Master1's to Adept3s members of VA who have been clearing VP for months are still going to be in much better shape than city folk who never made it past doomcoil. What you will loose can be replaced on the market, what you have gained in exile can not be bought. End game raids drop a lot of plat and the change does not go live for a while. Just save up from a few raids, do one less guild split, and buy your people raws to make adept 3s.I suspect some exile guilds will return. If Nexus returns they will likely reactivate Europa, Ressurrection can reactivate Insurrection, and VA could reactivage gray wolves. By reactivating the old guild that an exile guild came from the guild is most of the way to 80 already. Between raids, PvP, and the new writ system on the docks where you can do eight 14k writs at a time in JW regainging a few lost levels will be a cakewalk.The glass is more than half full here. Besides if it wasn't for the devs opening up all classes you would never get to see a guild hall because you would still need to be exiled to raid end game content in the next expansion.</blockquote>Exiles don't need to be punished because their faction counterparts couldn't hack it. Yes, Qeynos on Venekor is stuck on Doomcoil. With Purity on Druusk, it shows thats the result of a lack in dedication and skill, period. It doesn't concern us at all that we're in better shape then the factions, because thats the result of their own laziness. With the exception of my Mythical and my bow, I have 1 piece of VP gear. My boots, they sit in my display slot because their useless and Tramplers boots from PR are superior. What that means is, All of my gear, the best gear, is obtained in the lower tiers that any faction guild is able to access easily.Adept III's can't be compared to Masters, and the loss of 19 T8 Masters (in my case), because SoE decided to screw over the one benefit of being exile just isnt right. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span>IE: If this change had been in the game from the start of PvP servers as it should have been, we never would have left the cities to begin with <span style="color: #ff0000;">Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span>. With that said, our accomplishments in Exile should not be grounds for punishment, as we were only using exile as it was intended <span style="color: #ff0000;">Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span>. Nobody even cared about all of this until Mythicals came into the picture.Also, not sure how it is on Nagafen, but what we'll lose on Venekor can not be replaced on the market. There hasn't been a Paladin master that I need on sale for over 4 months. While the same freaking 4 masters that always drop, continue to be listed for sale. But thats besides the point.The situation here is, you're claiming all of this is some kind of balancing effect for the factions to catch up the exiles, that simply isnt the case. The Faction guilds that dedicated themselves to raiding are already in VP and will have their mythicals shorly. They are already geared just like the rest of us.</blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chris_p_Ratt wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just wish they (the devs) could've come up with something else... like making being a part of a city a real advantage. Exiling a real detriment. Shrug. Interested in hearing your comments. Please feel free. </blockquote>Exiling was always supposed to be a detriment but things like raid gear and mythical epics make it very attractive compared to the negative aspects of it.<span style="color: #ff0000;"> Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span> As time went on though the raid items made going exile very attractive and from the data I have seen many raiders went that route. Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.</blockquote>Sorry about your masters, but it's not punishment of exiles. It's not about exiles because there is nothing wrong with haven. City factions being crippled is the problem. City factions were crippled from the start running a race of the paralympics to see who would win. Along came exile with LU24 and all of the sudden there was a faction that wasn't crippled. After the faction with 2 working legs beat the cripples in the wheelchairs in a race 5 times in a row SOE finally took a close look at the rules of the race, and decided to give the crippled factions 2 working legs. Your faction still works, you still have 2 working legs, and nothing will change for exile after the patch. The only thing that will change is now both exile and city factions will have 2 working legs. Would you like to continue to tell the devs that city factions should go back in the wheelchair so you can always win the race?</blockquote>No, but you sure as hell don't mind them putting exiles in a wheelchair.

[Vlahkmaak]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The people who went exile for PvP reasons will be content.</p><p>Those of you who went for raiding, will be punished...as well you should. Not only did you LEAVE city factions for easy-mode raiding, but you insulted them for being lazy bums who couldn't kill a squirrel if it died for them. So hah, you get your just deserts for bailing on the people who could've used your help. Congrats.</p><p>Besides...you all HONESTLY aren't telling me you didn't know that the exile factions had its risks, did you? Stop whining about th elack of Signets and such because you knew about it in th efirst place. I personally do not see any arguments that hold water. You wen exile, you KNEW the effects, and then you whine because you lose your easy-mode? The irony of it all.</p></blockquote>Those who used the options avaliable to them in the game, took the sacrafice of scorn from their fellow players, lost all PvP gear, all the comforts of the city, and use of signets...should be punished because they did what you weren't capable of? That has to be the most unintelligent argument I've ever seen.Also, I find it comical that you still sit here and call it easy mode raiding, when the entire time you were asking for, and now have recieved, an even easier mode of raiding.One last thing, The factions are lazy, especially on Venekor. A Qeynos based guild has gotten to VP and killed Druusk on Nagafen, while the Q guilds on Venekor can't even beat Doomcoil.This is seriously all hilarious, the most pathetic players in PvP are getting their way for throwing a tantrum and because of it, they suddenly think that exiles also need to be punished for their accomplishments.</blockquote><p>Having a templar and a brigand is not going to make us lazy Venekor players warp through content.  It will make a huge difference to quote the devs at fan faire though.  We expect to keep dying and trying but we expect certain aspects to get slightly easier (templar heals for FP and brig debuffs for Qeynos).  Many of us lazy city factioned players support Haven as a third faction - we believe it really spices up the pvp enviornment when a wild card force can engage in a battle at any time causing a three way + rumble.  Many of us lazy Venekor players have long supported PVP gear and signets for Haven as well. I will even say I support guild halls for exile - I don't care how you use your game time but I expect you to be honest about it.  Every raider exiled for 1 reason - you all knew you would have access to the most hard core players of every class you needed.  We are asking for that and that alone - access to all classes.  The data, after months of debating this issue supports our arguement.  None of us expect to outfitt our new Q classes and go drop Avatar of Hate on the first pull (3rd maybe).  </p><p>Expect the game to change - it has not always changed to be "easier."  The first December guardian nerf made our job a heck of alot harder - we actually ahd to DPS for aggro instead of just taunt.  Not all changes ahve made the game easier.  The devs cannot forsee every aspect of a potential change.  I can tell you this, I met them at Fan Faire, spoke with quite a few of them, and my impression of them changed remarkedly for the better - they actually do have the games best interest at heart.  They actually do care about our thoughts on game mechanics.  They actually do think alot and debate alot between themselves before they make a change.   They are not the mindless cubicle programs many of us erroneously thought they were.  I was impressed with everyone of the devs, their intricate knowledge of the game, and how easy it was to approach them and discuss everything from this topic to the topic of ratonga whiskers in relation to certain helms as two young kids were exceptionally curious about.  They spoke on every topic presented to them and dodged nothing and they were very gracious.  I think the devs made the right choice here by allowing all classes.  </p>

[Niou]

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The people who went exile for PvP reasons will be content.</p><p>Those of you who went for raiding, will be punished...as well you should. Not only did you LEAVE city factions for easy-mode raiding, but you insulted them for being lazy bums who couldn't kill a squirrel if it died for them. So hah, you get your just deserts for bailing on the people who could've used your help. Congrats.</p><p>Besides...you all HONESTLY aren't telling me you didn't know that the exile factions had its risks, did you? Stop whining about th elack of Signets and such because you knew about it in th efirst place. I personally do not see any arguments that hold water. You wen exile, you KNEW the effects, and then you whine because you lose your easy-mode? The irony of it all.</p></blockquote>Those who used the options avaliable to them in the game, took the sacrafice of scorn from their fellow players, lost all PvP gear, all the comforts of the city, and use of signets...should be punished because they did what you weren't capable of? That has to be the most unintelligent argument I've ever seen.Also, I find it comical that you still sit here and call it easy mode raiding, when the entire time you were asking for, and now have recieved, an even easier mode of raiding.One last thing, The factions are lazy, especially on Venekor. A Qeynos based guild has gotten to VP and killed Druusk on Nagafen, while the Q guilds on Venekor can't even beat Doomcoil.This is seriously all hilarious, the most pathetic players in PvP are getting their way for throwing a tantrum and because of it, they suddenly think that exiles also need to be punished for their accomplishments.</blockquote><p>Having a templar and a brigand is not going to make us lazy Venekor players warp through content. It will make a huge difference to quote the devs at fan faire though. We expect to keep dying and trying but we expect certain aspects to get slightly easier (templar heals for FP and brig debuffs for Qeynos). Many of us lazy city factioned players support Haven as a third faction - we believe it really spices up the pvp enviornment when a wild card force can engage in a battle at any time causing a three way + rumble. Many of us lazy Venekor players have long supported PVP gear and signets for Haven as well. I will even say I support guild halls for exile - I don't care how you use your game time but I expect you to be honest about it. Every raider exiled for 1 reason - you all knew you would have access to the most hard core players of every class you needed. We are asking for that and that alone - access to all classes. The data, after months of debating this issue supports our arguement. None of us expect to outfitt our new Q classes and go drop Avatar of Hate on the first pull (3rd maybe). </p><p>Expect the game to change - it has not always changed to be "easier." The first December guardian nerf made our job a heck of alot harder - we actually ahd to DPS for aggro instead of just taunt. Not all changes ahve made the game easier. The devs cannot forsee every aspect of a potential change. I can tell you this, I met them at Fan Faire, spoke with quite a few of them, and my impression of them changed remarkedly for the better - they actually do have the games best interest at heart. They actually do care about our thoughts on game mechanics. They actually do think alot and debate alot between themselves before they make a change. They are not the mindless cubicle programs many of us erroneously thought they were. I was impressed with everyone of the devs, their intricate knowledge of the game, and how easy it was to approach them and discuss everything from this topic to the topic of ratonga whiskers in relation to certain helms as two young kids were exceptionally curious about. They spoke on every topic presented to them and dodged nothing and they were very gracious. I think the devs made the right choice here by allowing all classes. </p></blockquote>Vlak you're one of the few I don't have a problem with. You got you're guild together and decided to raid and see how far you could get, with or without all classes. Not only that, but unlike these other pathetic faction people posting here, you don't have such a huge chip on you're shoulder because people used what was avaliable to them in a game.Hopefully the Dev's are what you say, and they'll be able to see further then these short sided, immature, revenge seeking noobs. Many exiles, including me, care less if the factions get access to all classes. We'd rather have competition than a bunch of cry babies. We do on the other hand, want access to the comforts of the city. Why? Well as you all cried for so long, we just want to be equal <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> without having to actually interact with you....people.

[Vlahkmaak]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The people who went exile for PvP reasons will be content.</p><p>Those of you who went for raiding, will be punished...as well you should. Not only did you LEAVE city factions for easy-mode raiding, but you insulted them for being lazy bums who couldn't kill a squirrel if it died for them. So hah, you get your just deserts for bailing on the people who could've used your help. Congrats.</p><p>Besides...you all HONESTLY aren't telling me you didn't know that the exile factions had its risks, did you? Stop whining about th elack of Signets and such because you knew about it in th efirst place. I personally do not see any arguments that hold water. You wen exile, you KNEW the effects, and then you whine because you lose your easy-mode? The irony of it all.</p></blockquote>Those who used the options avaliable to them in the game, took the sacrafice of scorn from their fellow players, lost all PvP gear, all the comforts of the city, and use of signets...should be punished because they did what you weren't capable of? That has to be the most unintelligent argument I've ever seen.Also, I find it comical that you still sit here and call it easy mode raiding, when the entire time you were asking for, and now have recieved, an even easier mode of raiding.One last thing, The factions are lazy, especially on Venekor. A Qeynos based guild has gotten to VP and killed Druusk on Nagafen, while the Q guilds on Venekor can't even beat Doomcoil.This is seriously all hilarious, the most pathetic players in PvP are getting their way for throwing a tantrum and because of it, they suddenly think that exiles also need to be punished for their accomplishments.</blockquote><p>Having a templar and a brigand is not going to make us lazy Venekor players warp through content. It will make a huge difference to quote the devs at fan faire though. We expect to keep dying and trying but we expect certain aspects to get slightly easier (templar heals for FP and brig debuffs for Qeynos). Many of us lazy city factioned players support Haven as a third faction - we believe it really spices up the pvp enviornment when a wild card force can engage in a battle at any time causing a three way + rumble. Many of us lazy Venekor players have long supported PVP gear and signets for Haven as well. I will even say I support guild halls for exile - I don't care how you use your game time but I expect you to be honest about it. Every raider exiled for 1 reason - you all knew you would have access to the most hard core players of every class you needed. We are asking for that and that alone - access to all classes. The data, after months of debating this issue supports our arguement. None of us expect to outfitt our new Q classes and go drop Avatar of Hate on the first pull (3rd maybe). </p><p>Expect the game to change - it has not always changed to be "easier." The first December guardian nerf made our job a heck of alot harder - we actually ahd to DPS for aggro instead of just taunt. Not all changes ahve made the game easier. The devs cannot forsee every aspect of a potential change. I can tell you this, I met them at Fan Faire, spoke with quite a few of them, and my impression of them changed remarkedly for the better - they actually do have the games best interest at heart. They actually do care about our thoughts on game mechanics. They actually do think alot and debate alot between themselves before they make a change. They are not the mindless cubicle programs many of us erroneously thought they were. I was impressed with everyone of the devs, their intricate knowledge of the game, and how easy it was to approach them and discuss everything from this topic to the topic of ratonga whiskers in relation to certain helms as two young kids were exceptionally curious about. They spoke on every topic presented to them and dodged nothing and they were very gracious. I think the devs made the right choice here by allowing all classes. </p></blockquote>Vlak you're one of the few I don't have a problem with. You got you're guild together and decided to raid and see how far you could get, with or without all classes. Not only that, but unlike these other pathetic faction people posting here, you don't have such a huge chip on you're shoulder because people used what was avaliable to them in a game.Hopefully the Dev's are what you say, and they'll be able to see further then these short sided, immature, revenge seeking noobs. Many exiles, including me, care less if the factions get access to all classes. We'd rather have competition than a bunch of cry babies. We do on the other hand, want access to the comforts of the city. Why? Well as you all cried for so long, we just want to be equal <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> without having to actually interact with you....people.</blockquote><p>Thank you for that morale boost - I will always support equality amongst all 3 factions.  Lets start anther thread for Exiled PVP gear/signets and my next major push: Beastlords!!!!</p>

[Niou]

<cite>Tamarah wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, It's not about retreating, there were benefits and draw backs to exiling, one of the two <span style="font-size: x-large;"><b>large</b></span> benefits are now gone, and with the guild halls and everything else being located in a city, it's no longer logical to stay exiled. I know that's really hard for some of you to grasp.</blockquote>Wait. Stop everything.I thought that having all of the classes wasn't that big of a deal?Wow. Once the honey pot dries up the tune changes... Could you even type that with a straight face?My guess is that VA better make a move together. It would stink to be a guildless 80 with no spells.On a related note, I think it will be very nice to get back to a relatively 2 faction game.</blockquote>I like how you make yourself look like a fool everytime you post. I'm one of the few that have always stated clearly that having all classes is a large benefit. I also gave reasons on how, on many occations, it could be balanced out through aspects avaliable to the cities.Now, as I've said before, we understand that you're slow, but at least try to understand who you're talking to, it'll make you look like less of a fool.

[Vlahkmaak]

Maj Dul would make a perfect setting for Exiled Guild Halls.  Raising your faction with the courts could be the cost of purchasing Maj Dul signets.  The Exiled Guild Hall could be located in the Court of Tears area maybe or the city could be slightly altered to allow a new tower to be constructed in the Exiled quarter!  Support your local exile by allowing them access to PVP gear and signets.  Please post your comments and do try to be civil pro or con. 

[Niou]

<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I exiled to join the people with the right mind set for raiding. </p></blockquote>What, exactly, prevented City guilds from having the "right mind set for raiding?" I can understand it on a PvE server, where there aren't really any factions at all worth talking about, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this assertion on a PvP server.</blockquote>VA insists there is a shortage of dedicated raiders on Venekor, and said dedication is the reason why they have succeeded where the raid alliances have failed. On Nagafen 7 guilds are currently in VP 2 Qeynos, 1 Freeport, and 4 exile with the 4 exiled guilds clearing it on a weekly basis. There is no lack of dedicated raiders on Nagafen. VA still has access to all classes and the dedicated raiders. Nothing has nerfed exile. VA doesn't see it, but this is the class balance equivalent of Brigands protesting against Summoners getting some dev love because they enjoy the easy kills from helpless summoners.</blockquote>Lets see then..Nagafen...7 Guilds in VP2 Q1 Freep4 ExileVenekor...1 Guild in VP1 ExileNow, although we do have a lower population, the cities are packed with people, so many in fact, that there are what...4 alliances?, Yet not one of these managed to make it to VP.That seems pretty clear to me. Yes, it is a lack of dedicated raiders, its really not that hard to understand. After months upon months, the factions finally decided to get serious and because of it, the Freeps are finally approaching VP. The Q's...not at all. The same situation took place on Nagafen. As Enoe stated, for months they pretty much did nothing, or lacked the serious raiders they needed. Then, 4 months ago, they merged and got DEDICATED RAIDERS. Amazing, that this guild is now in VP and took down Druusk.Very few exiles have ever denied that they went exile for to raid with all classes. TO RAID. Getting it yet? While you sat in the factions and did nothing, These guilds exiled for the sole purpose of raiding and raiding alone. It's a matter of dedication, plain and simple.

[Tamon]

<p>Calling the city factioned players/guilds on Venekor lazy because they haven't accomplished raids as well as their Naggy counterparts is like calling Georgia lazy for not kicking Russia's butt. There are better reasons to explain the difference besides "They're lazy!":</p><p>- Venekor's extremely low population makes it difficult to gather raid groups. Half of the time, a /who all will register ~60 people (Q side).</p><p>- Venekor ended up being the non-US, RP-server. Players are scattered over Europe and Australia (and North America) making scheduling raids that match everyone's play time much more difficult than on Naggy.</p><p>If many Haven players return to the cities after the next GU, raiding and even simply finding a group should be a bit easier for the city players.</p>

[Niou]

At this point, its best to look forward. With the changes coming many exiles will quit if screwed over, further reducing pvp population. That's obviously not the best option for any of us, as I just killed a total of 3 people in about 3 hours on Venekor. With the cities having all classes, it'd be nice if all factions could just be equal and we can go on with our lives.Because Exiles have access to more targets, you could either A. Just not give us PvP gear, (many only want guild halls). or B. Make the token costs significantly higher.Hopefully the Dev's will consider this instead of simply destroying exiles and further limiting pvp targets on pvp servers.

[Vlahkmaak]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tamarah wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, It's not about retreating, there were benefits and draw backs to exiling, one of the two <span style="font-size: x-large;"><b>large</b></span> benefits are now gone, and with the guild halls and everything else being located in a city, it's no longer logical to stay exiled. I know that's really hard for some of you to grasp.</blockquote>Wait. Stop everything.I thought that having all of the classes wasn't that big of a deal?Wow. Once the honey pot dries up the tune changes... Could you even type that with a straight face?My guess is that VA better make a move together. It would stink to be a guildless 80 with no spells.<span style="font-size: large;">On a related note, I think it will be very nice to get back to a relatively 2 faction game.</span></blockquote>I like how you make yourself look like a fool everytime you post. I'm one of the few that have always stated clearly that having all classes is a large benefit. I also gave reasons on how, on many occations, it could be balanced out through aspects avaliable to the cities.Now, as I've said before, we understand that you're slow, but at least try to understand who you're talking to, it'll make you look like less of a fool.</blockquote>I for one like having a wild card faction. The two city approach to eq2 never felt right to an old Troll from Grobb as my self.  I so much more liked the multiple cities of eq1.  The only draw back to the cities will be guild halls and other than aesthetics they are really not much of a draw.  The strategist is nice for raid forces.  I doubt most exiled guilds will come back, at least not right away.  Why would they leave powerful raiding forces when they are set to tackle the new content and be the first to race for the new mythicals (if any).  The exiles that did not win a place on the better raid forces will return and the city guilds will be beter for it.  I know if I was a leader in a city raid force and had the chance to pick up an exiled raider of an appropriate class that was going to be availible to raid on my raid forces raid schedule then that exiled player, loaded with their strats, the patience to understand we are a bit behind where s/he was, and FLAGGED then the outfitting of said toon would benefit our guild.  HINT HINT HINT - not that I am promising anything before discussing any such aquisition with the other officers of the guild  but it would not be a hard sell.

[Disma]

<p>I like that all classes are coming to the cities. For all those who say well I think I should fight only good classes or only evil classes well what about those classes that are in exile? Has there never been a Brig vs Brig fight, a Swash v Swash fight Pally vs Pally fight? This only takes out exile as a faction. It was never intended to be a faction just a temporary place to stay while you went to the oposing faction....boo hoo you may lose masters, but you knew that when you first exiled that if you chose to go back to a city you would lose masters exiles had the benefit of having all classes while raiding the entire time. Some people will hate this change (as some people hate all change) others will love it. I think it will make the game balanced as far as rading goes. I know it will not mean factions will get insta mythicals but having all classes helps when the zones are designed to have all classes. The devs looked at this issue and said hmmm is it easier to redesign these raid zones for pvp servers or is it easier to just let both cities have all classes. As far as the lore is concerned would you forget all everything you learned in life just because you moved?( I know there really shouldnt be evil paladins or good sks but oh well) Maybe as an answer to those who do not want the change SOE could leave Venekor like it is now and allow free transfers back and forth so those who would like all classes on both sides play on Naggy and those who like it how it is now can go to Venekor(since it is a RP server). Allowing all classes will help with population issues. With 3 factions the population for each is lower than if there were just 2. I think this change will help pvp servers more than it will hurt them in the long run. </p><p><img src="http://a624.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/75/m_cc76cb6a27c24f3106e8429909cf50f7.gif" border="0" alt="" /></p>

[Izzypop]

There is no dev conspiracy to destroy exile.  Climb off the cross and use the wood to build a bridge to get over it.  Exiles could use a guild hall in Maj`Dul more than city factions could use on in a city.Exiles who joined exile to play on hardmode instead of easymode will still play in hardmodeMany of the hardcore PvPers who have been in exile for 2 years have grown tired of the cave.I have no beef with soe tossing  the exiles who stick things out in haven a boneProblem: Red servers are a small chunk of the player population, and exiles are a small chunk of a small chunk.  SOE is on a budget from their point of view every hour they spend writing code for a PvP exile an entire month's subscription from an exile is spent.  Solution: Keep the code writing to a minimal.  The devs could just recycle the instanced zone used for court of coin/blades/truth for an exiled guild hall and use an empty verision of the inside of those zones for an exiled guild hall.  It's the largest pre-built maj dul instance when it comes to floor space.  Problem: Guild halls require massive upkeep and exiles have less ways of generating guild status.Solution: Limit exiles to tier 1 guild houses.  Teir 2 and 3 guildhouses would require too much status upkeep for an exile guild to maintain while a tier 1 house could be mainted with raids.  This also makes the coding for exiled guildhalls very simple by limiting it to a single tier 1 guildhouse.Adding guild halls for exile would be very simple if done right.  Just don't be greedy here, if you ask for every city perk (Something many old school nagafen exiles would object to) while asking for guild halls the thead will be derailed as it goes into a downword spiral as exiles fight city folk and other exiles over nothing.  Keep it simple and focus on how easy and non disruptive it would be to offer exiles tier 1 guildhalls.

[Izzypop]

<cite>Khrunk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I exiled to join the people with the right mind set for raiding. </p></blockquote>What, exactly, prevented City guilds from having the "right mind set for raiding?" I can understand it on a PvE server, where there aren't really any factions at all worth talking about, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this assertion on a PvP server.</blockquote>VA insists there is a shortage of dedicated raiders on Venekor, and said dedication is the reason why they have succeeded where the raid alliances have failed. On Nagafen 7 guilds are currently in VP 2 Qeynos, 1 Freeport, and 4 exile with the 4 exiled guilds clearing it on a weekly basis. There is no lack of dedicated raiders on Nagafen. VA still has access to all classes and the dedicated raiders. Nothing has nerfed exile. VA doesn't see it, but this is the class balance equivalent of Brigands protesting against Summoners getting some dev love because they enjoy the easy kills from helpless summoners.</blockquote>havent you raided in an alliance before you exiled to dom? </blockquote>Nope.  Went from the Rat Pack, to Vindication, to TO, to DOM<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I exiled to join the people with the right mind set for raiding. </p></blockquote>What, exactly, prevented City guilds from having the "right mind set for raiding?" I can understand it on a PvE server, where there aren't really any factions at all worth talking about, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this assertion on a PvP server.</blockquote>VA insists there is a shortage of dedicated raiders on Venekor, and said dedication is the reason why they have succeeded where the raid alliances have failed. On Nagafen 7 guilds are currently in VP 2 Qeynos, 1 Freeport, and 4 exile with the 4 exiled guilds clearing it on a weekly basis. There is no lack of dedicated raiders on Nagafen. VA still has access to all classes and the dedicated raiders. Nothing has nerfed exile. VA doesn't see it, but this is the class balance equivalent of Brigands protesting against Summoners getting some dev love because they enjoy the easy kills from helpless summoners.</blockquote>Lets see then..Nagafen...7 Guilds in VP2 Q1 Freep4 ExileVenekor...1 Guild in VP1 ExileNow, although we do have a lower population, the cities are packed with people, so many in fact, that there are what...4 alliances?, Yet not one of these managed to make it to VP.That seems pretty clear to me. Yes, it is a lack of dedicated raiders, its really not that hard to understand. After months upon months, the factions finally decided to get serious and because of it, the Freeps are finally approaching VP. The Q's...not at all. The same situation took place on Nagafen. As Enoe stated, for months they pretty much did nothing, or lacked the serious raiders they needed. Then, 4 months ago, they merged and got DEDICATED RAIDERS. Amazing, that this guild is now in VP and took down Druusk.Very few exiles have ever denied that they went exile for to raid with all classes. TO RAID. Getting it yet? While you sat in the factions and did nothing, These guilds exiled for the sole purpose of raiding and raiding alone. It's a matter of dedication, plain and simple.</blockquote>It's night and day between the servers as Nagafen is full of dedicated raiders.  Most Nagafen exiled guilds say they did it for the PvP.   You are now basicly saying that you went to whatever side of the fence had the greenist grass, you want to continue to be on the side with the greenist grass, you will continue to go to whatever side has the greenist grass, but your habit of fence hoppnig should be free and subsidized by SOE.

[Izzypop]

<cite>Khrunk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote> Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.</blockquote><p>What do you plan on doing to give exile guilds insentives to go back to the city, at the cost of mostly everything they have worked for?</p><p>Will you allow exiles to go back to the citys with their current masters once?</p><p>Will you allow exile guilds to move with there players back to the citys without have to re-level and re-name a new guild?</p><p>Or will you give alot of people a brand new reason to /quit</p><p>Choose wisely my friend!</p></blockquote>You get to keep your title, your class thanks to the change, all your end game raid gear, and mythical when you return to a city. Even after the downgrade from Master1's to Adept3s members of VA who have been clearing VP for months are still going to be in much better shape than city folk who never made it past doomcoil. What you will loose can be replaced on the market, what you have gained in exile can not be bought. End game raids drop a lot of plat and the change does not go live for a while. Just save up from a few raids, do one less guild split, and buy your people raws to make adept 3s.I suspect some exile guilds will return. If Nexus returns they will likely reactivate Europa, Ressurrection can reactivate Insurrection, and VA could reactivage gray wolves. By reactivating the old guild that an exile guild came from the guild is most of the way to 80 already. Between raids, PvP, and the new writ system on the docks where you can do eight 14k writs at a time in JW regainging a few lost levels will be a cakewalk.The glass is more than half full here. Besides if it wasn't for the devs opening up all classes you would never get to see a guild hall because you would still need to be exiled to raid end game content in the next expansion.</blockquote>Exiles don't need to be punished because their faction counterparts couldn't hack it. Yes, Qeynos on Venekor is stuck on Doomcoil. With Purity on Druusk, it shows thats the result of a lack in dedication and skill, period. It doesn't concern us at all that we're in better shape then the factions, because thats the result of their own laziness. With the exception of my Mythical and my bow, I have 1 piece of VP gear. My boots, they sit in my display slot because their useless and Tramplers boots from PR are superior. What that means is, All of my gear, the best gear, is obtained in the lower tiers that any faction guild is able to access easily.Adept III's can't be compared to Masters, and the loss of 19 T8 Masters (in my case), because SoE decided to screw over the one benefit of being exile just isnt right. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span>IE: If this change had been in the game from the start of PvP servers as it should have been, we never would have left the cities to begin with <span style="color: #ff0000;">Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span>. With that said, our accomplishments in Exile should not be grounds for punishment, as we were only using exile as it was intended <span style="color: #ff0000;">Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span>. Nobody even cared about all of this until Mythicals came into the picture.Also, not sure how it is on Nagafen, but what we'll lose on Venekor can not be replaced on the market. There hasn't been a Paladin master that I need on sale for over 4 months. While the same freaking 4 masters that always drop, continue to be listed for sale. But thats besides the point.The situation here is, you're claiming all of this is some kind of balancing effect for the factions to catch up the exiles, that simply isnt the case. The Faction guilds that dedicated themselves to raiding are already in VP and will have their mythicals shorly. They are already geared just like the rest of us.</blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chris_p_Ratt wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just wish they (the devs) could've come up with something else... like making being a part of a city a real advantage. Exiling a real detriment. Shrug. Interested in hearing your comments. Please feel free. </blockquote>Exiling was always supposed to be a detriment but things like raid gear and mythical epics make it very attractive compared to the negative aspects of it.<span style="color: #ff0000;"> Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span> As time went on though the raid items made going exile very attractive and from the data I have seen many raiders went that route. Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.</blockquote>Sorry about your masters, but it's not punishment of exiles. It's not about exiles because there is nothing wrong with haven. City factions being crippled is the problem. City factions were crippled from the start running a race of the paralympics to see who would win. Along came exile with LU24 and all of the sudden there was a faction that wasn't crippled. After the faction with 2 working legs beat the cripples in the wheelchairs in a race 5 times in a row SOE finally took a close look at the rules of the race, and decided to give the crippled factions 2 working legs. Your faction still works, you still have 2 working legs, and nothing will change for exile after the patch. The only thing that will change is now both exile and city factions will have 2 working legs. Would you like to continue to tell the devs that city factions should go back in the wheelchair so you can always win the race?</blockquote>No, but you sure as hell don't mind them putting exiles in a wheelchair. </blockquote>Exiles still have 2 working legs.  Nothing will change about exile as a faction after the all classes for city factions patch goes live.  Pitting exile in a race agains 2 other racers that are not in wheelchairs is not putting exile into a wheelchair.   The patch is built to help cities, not nerf exiles.  Exile will work just the same as it did before, you guys just want to leave it now that city factions will work.

[Faenril]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>It's a matter of dedication, plain and simple.</blockquote>To some extent I agree, but it's only partly true.If it's only a matter of dedication, what prevented VA to form a guild of dedicated raiders in a faction ?Do you suddenly become a dedicated raider when you complete exile quest ?What VA accomplished in haven, why didn't they do it in a faction in the first place ?You know it's not as simple as that, you also need the proper tools to be efficient in a timely manner.Consider this example:I have two raw blocks of wood and I ask two artisans to craft some furnitures.To the 1st one I give all needed woordworking tools, while I only give a knife to the 2nd.Sure, both CAN achieve it. They WILL manage it, IF they put the dedication.But the 1st one will manage it in a day while the 2nd will manage in a week or a month.They are only fixing the cities, that were broken, by giving them all available tools, in no way is exile getting nerfed or destroyed.After the change goes live you can still stay there and raid all you like.You can still go out and own the lazy city factioned players at pvp, who will still not succeed at raiding because they lack the dedication as you said.(when there are 50 players online on each side I doubt it's a matter of dedication anyway, but I'm derailing here...).Nobody forces you to go back to a city.Only the "grass is greener"/easy mode addicts will go back to a city, those who switch direction as the winds change.This is fine.While you are disappointed and it's understandable, the sky is not falling...

[Valdar]

<p>While it may be true that noone is forcing the Exile guilds to go back to a faction, I think that in the long run they will have no choice. At least Nexus being a European guild with a much smaller player pool to recruit from won't, as there will be no reason for people to Exile and thus we will be unable to recruit.</p><p>And while it may be gratifying to "punish" the people who joined the one faction that the devs set up as the raiding power house, I think that with WAR going live soon and the decline in server population that will undubtedly accompany it SOE should for once implement a major change that will not [Removed for Content] off a large part of it's customer base.</p>

[Gimet]

<p>Niou, calm down...really this is a video and for you to conjure up all of these insult sin each of your posts only proves to me You're two years old and you want everythign your way. "pathetic faction people posting here""short sided, immature, revenge seeking noobs""bunch of cry babies""yourself look like a fool when you're typing""Someone from vox talking about accomplishments, shut up""One last thing, The factions are lazy, especially on Venekor" <b>Why don't you stop these hollow insults, sit down, and YOU shut up and listen to what people have been saying in this whole argument.</b></p><p>The factions are not lazy, but lacked people who could give their time to dedicated raiding. Saying they lacked Dedicated players is 50% true, saying they were lazy is 100% false. Maybe you don't realize how much work Purity had to go through to assemble such a raid force? People like you, bailed on the city when RAIDING got hard. People like you, are the TRUE lazy ones. Had you all not left the city because you wante dpetty, easy mythicals...Qeynos and Freeport would've been powerhouses by now. The devs have already stated that exile was meant for Hardcore players, for FFA and challenges. Never did they say...NOT ONCE, "and for accesss to all classes". They simply overlooked it at the time...and we know our devs, everythign is overlooked at some point. If you went exile, for hardcore PvP, this change will not effect you. In fact, you get more of a challenge. For people like you, who are always worried about being on top because of your so-called "Dedication, superiority, and hard work" in raiding....you will have yourself a dilemma. When you went Exile, you didn't suffer the exile penalty because Exile was a powerhouse, a Raider's Haven. Now that it has been fixed to accomodate...once again...a hard lifestyle as it was intended, your suffering starts now sinse you skipped the suffering when you initially left the city.</p><p>THEREFORE:</p><p>Did you exile? (YES)</p><p>Did you know you exiled? (YES)</p><p>Problem solved, you shouldn't be given anything...or permitted to any whining, because you entered your name into the "Are you sure you want to exile" box. Knowing full well the ups and downs.</p><p>Now, being the ups and downs have changed a tad bit...or should I say the exploitation evened out.....</p><p>Are you being kicked out of exile? (NO)</p><p>Do you have a choice to stay if you wanted to? (YES)</p><p>No one is forcing you out. Keep your Master 1's....to me it seems like you're a control-freak who must have things your way. The Factions may be glad to raid with Paladins other than th eone who conctantly called them lazy when they were crippled. End of Story.</p>

[Ahlana]

<cite>Batornalimeanos@Venekor wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>even simply finding a group should be a bit easier for the city players.</p></blockquote>After this fiasco I don't think they will be jumping to group with whatever side they might goto lol. On the other hand VA come to the dark side... we have cake... and I miss the voices in my head :p

[Brimacombe]

Threatening to unsubscribe if you lose your masters?This attitude screams of a sense of entitlement and a history of being spoiled. Anyone else would not dare look like such an idiot. This from the same people who tore apart city raiding guilds then insulted them and lied about their reasons all day every day. Yes, I still say exile has the best raiders. Because you all ditched out on your cities. Now you are so used to having your way that you act like this. The evidence of the mentality is obvious.If only you had the sense to be ashamed.Oh, and BTW, Easyrider is going to kill you.

[Magius789]

<cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Niou, calm down...really this is a video and for you to conjure up all of these insult sin each of your posts only proves to me You're two years old and you want everythign your way. "pathetic faction people posting here""short sided, immature, revenge seeking noobs""bunch of cry babies""yourself look like a fool when you're typing""Someone from vox talking about accomplishments, shut up""One last thing, The factions are lazy, especially on Venekor" <b>Why don't you stop these hollow insults, sit down, and YOU shut up and listen to what people have been saying in this whole argument.</b></p><p>The factions are not lazy, but lacked people who could give their time to dedicated raiding. Saying they lacked Dedicated players is 50% true, saying they were lazy is 100% false. Maybe you don't realize how much work Purity had to go through to assemble such a raid force? People like you, bailed on the city when RAIDING got hard. People like you, are the TRUE lazy ones. Had you all not left the city because you wante dpetty, easy mythicals...Qeynos and Freeport would've been powerhouses by now. The devs have already stated that exile was meant for Hardcore players, for FFA and challenges. Never did they say...NOT ONCE, "and for accesss to all classes". They simply overlooked it at the time...and we know our devs, everythign is overlooked at some point. If you went exile, for hardcore PvP, this change will not effect you. In fact, you get more of a challenge. For people like you, who are always worried about being on top because of your so-called "Dedication, superiority, and hard work" in raiding....you will have yourself a dilemma. When you went Exile, you didn't suffer the exile penalty because Exile was a powerhouse, a Raider's Haven. Now that it has been fixed to accomodate...once again...a hard lifestyle as it was intended, your suffering starts now sinse you skipped the suffering when you initially left the city.</p><p>THEREFORE:</p><p>Did you exile? (YES)</p><p>Did you know you exiled? (YES)</p><p>Problem solved, you shouldn't be given anything...or permitted to any whining, because you entered your name into the "Are you sure you want to exile" box. Knowing full well the ups and downs.</p><p>Now, being the ups and downs have changed a tad bit...or should I say the exploitation evened out.....</p><p>Are you being kicked out of exile? (NO)</p><p>Do you have a choice to stay if you wanted to? (YES)</p><p>No one is forcing you out. Keep your Master 1's....to me it seems like you're a control-freak who must have things your way. The Factions may be glad to raid with Paladins other than th eone who conctantly called them lazy when they were crippled. End of Story.</p></blockquote><p>Very well said!!!  What I find funny is Niou says that factions are just lazy and stupid and there is nothing wrong with their ability to raid.  If thats the case why did you exile?  Grey Wolves never seemed to have any trouble getting a strong raid force together I remember seeing them forming up in QH all the time.  So you either exiled for the FFA pvp or the access to all classess.</p><p>Like someone else said you don't have to leave exile so keep all of your M1's.  Obviously PvP gear isn't as good as the gear you are getting and signets don't seem to matter that much considering all the exiled guilds have done well without them.  No one is forcing you to leave haven so just stay there.  And if city guilds are all "stupid, noobs" then this change will not really make any difference and you don't have to worry about running up against equally geared players because access to all classess won't make the "stupid noobs" anymore dedicated and therefore they shouldn't clear any more content.</p><p>However if once this change goes live and we start seeing city guilds clearing content they couldn't previously clear maybe all city raiders aren't "stupid noobs" as you have stated.  If that day comes I think the "stupid noob" city guilds deserve an apology from one hot headed loud mouthed paladin who only found his voice to speak after he exiled.</p>

[Muraazi]

<p>Shrug, I could never see why some people thought, city guilds on a pvp server should be the ONLY people (GAMEWIDE) disadvantaged when it came to raiding.</p><p> It's a good change in my book. I can understand the bitterness as the change comes in now from exiles, simply because master spells etc. if they go back to a city. However, what I am left wondering is, if this bitterness, is the main purpose people (mostly exiles) were opposed to the change for so long.</p>

[liveja]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote>Very few exiles have ever denied that they went exile for to raid with all classes.</blockquote><p>You know, someone could read that statement, compare it to all of your other claims about Venekor faction players, & quite reasonably infer that you Exiles couldn't hack raiding without having all classes.</p><p>Someone else -- or maybe even the same person -- could infer that maybe there were fewer "dedicated raiders" on Venekor, because they were mostly on the server for RP-PvP, & so didn't care at all about PvE issues.</p><p>One might even say that people who are so heavily concerned with PvE issues shouldn't be on a PvP server in the first place. After all, if you're so concerned about raiding, CandyLand is thataway >>>>></p>

[Wytie]

<p>or they could do just like the PVE servers and save even more code....</p><p>The exile guild hall would reside in the faction the guild leader purchased it from, allow exiles to use city merchants as long as they have faction with that city. The only exception is pvp gear, exiles shouldnt get it, they have the FFA pvp at the cost of all pvp gear.</p><p>Done simple as that.</p>

[Nimbrithil]

When does this go live? Any ideas? Is it in November with the new expansion?

[Undacova]

<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Exiles should not be allowed to return with Masters, because the cities will lose theirs changing to a new class.</p><p>Exiles should be allowed PvP gear, without being able to update writs by killing other exile.</p><p>Exiles should have access to city type Insignias.</p><p>Exiles should remain the third faction they said they were with all the penalties associated with switching sides, just like the OTHER Factions.</p><p>Exiles said for months they exiled for the Free For All PvP, and that was not taken away from them.</p></blockquote>I rarely agree with you but I will here.  To me this is the most logical choice to keep a kind of balance, at least on Venekor, that we have come to know.  Destroying exile as a thrid faction will likely cause a mass exodus to the cities that will tilt the balance of numbers towards Freeport or Qeynos.Instead of having mass complaints of having too few targets, or always being outnumbered, leave exile as a third faction with the same benefits as the cities.  Add guild halls to the list above and I see no downside for anyone in this change.  Cities are happy, exiles are happy and we can go on our merry way of complaining about other game mechanics <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[Elanjar]

"All that this accomplishes is make already rediculously time consuming and difficult to get pvp gear more difficult and time consuming to get. If you are Q (or exiled, since it became a faction), you are my enemy. Period. That is what pvp is about. The order of the Lucanic Knights isn't going to care if I rolled you while you were solo with my group of 6. You wan't structured group vs group pvp, go play Guild Wars."I'd take structured PvP before I'd want FP classes on my side. I do agree. FP and Exile are my enemy therefore I fight them and kill them. I still say the best answer is to make being an exile a real detriment. Take away their ability to guild and form raids. If you chose to exile you chose to stand apart from a "side". Therefore you dont need a guild. Thats how it should have been. Just dont give it the ability to be a "3rd" faction.

[Warr]

<p>so, if people left a city, or even a country, and there were enough of them standing around in a cave, they couldn't decided to band together and do something as a whole?  How do you think civilizations are created? If someone couldn't leave their city, build their own, and have it grow into its own powerful city, (in theory) we'd all be standing around in sand right now.</p><p>lol even you roleplayers have to realize that is absurd expectation.</p>

[Elanjar]

I'm not a roleplayer. But thats how it shoulda been. If your an exile you stand alone.

[Niou]

<cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Niou, calm down...really this is a video and for you to conjure up all of these insult sin each of your posts only proves to me You're two years old and you want everythign your way. "pathetic faction people posting here""short sided, immature, revenge seeking noobs""bunch of cry babies""yourself look like a fool when you're typing""Someone from vox talking about accomplishments, shut up""One last thing, The factions are lazy, especially on Venekor" <b>Why don't you stop these hollow insults, sit down, and YOU shut up and listen to what people have been saying in this whole argument.</b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff6600;">The factions are not lazy, but lacked people who could give their time to dedicated raiding.</span></b> Saying they lacked Dedicated players is 50% true, saying they were lazy is 100% false. <span style="color: #ff6600;"><b><u>Maybe you don't realize how much work Purity had to go through to assemble such a raid force?</u></b><b>People like you, bailed on the city</b></span> when RAIDING got hard. People like you, are the TRUE lazy ones. Had you all not left the city because you wante dpetty, easy mythicals...Qeynos and Freeport would've been powerhouses by now. The devs have already stated that exile was meant for Hardcore players, for FFA and challenges. Never did they say...NOT ONCE, "and for accesss to all classes". They simply overlooked it at the time...and we know our devs, everythign is overlooked at some point. If you went exile, for hardcore PvP, this change will not effect you. In fact, you get more of a challenge. For people like you, who are always worried about being on top because of your so-called "Dedication, superiority, and hard work" in raiding....you will have yourself a dilemma. When you went Exile, you didn't suffer the exile penalty because Exile was a powerhouse, a Raider's Haven. Now that it has been fixed to accomodate...once again...a hard lifestyle as it was intended, your suffering starts now sinse you skipped the suffering when you initially left the city.</p><p>THEREFORE:</p><p>Did you exile? (YES)</p><p>Did you know you exiled? (YES)</p><p>Problem solved, you shouldn't be given anything...or permitted to any whining, because you entered your name into the "Are you sure you want to exile" box. Knowing full well the ups and downs.</p><p>Now, being the ups and downs have changed a tad bit...or should I say the exploitation evened out.....</p><p>Are you being kicked out of exile? (NO)</p><p>Do you have a choice to stay if you wanted to? (YES)</p><p>No one is forcing you out. Keep your Master 1's....to me it seems like you're a control-freak who must have things your way. The Factions may be glad to raid with Paladins other than th eone who conctantly called them lazy when they were crippled. End of Story.</p></blockquote>All of you're assumptions could not be more hilarious. The Dev's, knowing all they do, simply missed the fact that if someone from Qeynos exiled, and someone from Freeport exiled, they'd end up in haven together? You're either being willfully ignorant of the fact that the Dev's knew this, or you're literally so wrapped up in you're hate, that you fail to see how insane that sounds.The Dev already explained that they were aware of it, they had to be. It was simply the changes in Raid Content and Rewards that drew attention from the PLAYERS.That mean's, for all of you that can't quite grasp it. It was fine and dandy for people to go exile when the PvP gear was better then the PvE raid gear. You're all just jealous kids and its obvious to everyone but you. People exiled and put forth the effort, around 6 months of it, to ONLY NOW start truly "farming VP" and you're upset because you can't have everything they have handed to you. Its really that simple.I highlighted the above for you because thats the best part of everything you said. Of course I realize how much work it is to form a raid guild capable of taking down the encounters. Again, all of you don't seem to realize that simply having all classes, doesn't mean the mob's simply lay down and die for you. We have tons of people in VA that sacrafice what they'd rather play, and play a needed class for us in order to successfully raid and fill required spots. They leveled alts for needed positions, members that quit gave their characters to other members so we could use their class if needed. Why? Because as exile we depend on eachother and nobody else. You're sitting there whining and crying because of what? We didn't stick around to help you out? For the last time, YOU ARE NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY. Grey Wolves was never part of any pathetic alliance. We raided by ourselves and when it came time, we exiled and continued to raid by ourselves. We didn't "bail" on you, we never had anything to do with you. Stop feeling sorry for yourselfs and admit that while we exiled (took the easy way out as you put it) and dedicated ourselves to raiding for half a year, you sat there and did NOTHING. You are from Qeynos also, and yet have accomplished NOTHING when Purity is already in VP. While you had a pity party and continued to do NOTHING, the freeport side got its act together and is now just outside VP, While you sit on the first tier. Waiting for hand outs.Also, if this is just a "tad change" as you put it, whats the big fuss about? Could you be honest for even a second and admit that you know the Dev's just stripped exiles of everything that drew people to it? <u>I'm not saying it, but any true guild leader should be able to figure out why exactly exiles are screwed beyond belief now. I already said, you people are short sided. The exiles either have to come back to the city, or gain what the cities have. There is no middle ground.</u>I'm honestly done with all of this crap. You're lazy, don't want to admit it? thats fine, you're raid progress speaks for itself. The Dev's will have to figure out what to do from here, and I doubt they'll listen to a bunch of short sided kids.

[Niou]

<cite>Phaust@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>While it may be true that noone is forcing the Exile guilds to go back to a faction, I think that in the long run they will have no choice. At least Nexus being a European guild with a much smaller player pool to recruit from won't,<span style="color: #ff6600;"><i><b> </b></i><b><u>as there will be no reason for people to Exile and thus we will be unable to recruit.</u></b></span></p><p>And while it may be gratifying to "punish" the people who joined the one faction that the devs set up as the raiding power house, I think that with WAR going live soon and the decline in server population that will undubtedly accompany it SOE should for once implement a major change that will not [Removed for Content] off a large part of it's customer base.</p></blockquote>Looks like I didn't have to say it after all. That's the situation for exiles as of right now. There is no middle ground. Exiles must either return to the cities, or recieve the benefits and become a full fledged faction. The only other option is death.

[Niou]

<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no dev conspiracy to destroy exile. Climb off the cross and use the wood to build a bridge to get over it. Exiles could use a guild hall in Maj`Dul more than city factions could use on in a city.Exiles who joined exile to play on hardmode instead of easymode will still play in hardmodeMany of the hardcore PvPers who have been in exile for 2 years have grown tired of the cave.I have no beef with soe tossing the exiles who stick things out in haven a boneProblem: Red servers are a small chunk of the player population, and exiles are a small chunk of a small chunk. SOE is on a budget from their point of view every hour they spend writing code for a PvP exile an entire month's subscription from an exile is spent. Solution: Keep the code writing to a minimal. The devs could just recycle the instanced zone used for court of coin/blades/truth for an exiled guild hall and use an empty verision of the inside of those zones for an exiled guild hall. It's the largest pre-built maj dul instance when it comes to floor space. Problem: Guild halls require massive upkeep and exiles have less ways of generating guild status.Solution: Limit exiles to tier 1 guild houses. Teir 2 and 3 guildhouses would require too much status upkeep for an exile guild to maintain while a tier 1 house could be mainted with raids. This also makes the coding for exiled guildhalls very simple by limiting it to a single tier 1 guildhouse.Adding guild halls for exile would be very simple if done right. Just don't be greedy here, if you ask for every city perk (Something many old school nagafen exiles would object to) while asking for guild halls the thead will be derailed as it goes into a downword spiral as exiles fight city folk and other exiles over nothing. Keep it simple and focus on how easy and non disruptive it would be to offer exiles tier 1 guildhalls.</blockquote>Didn't want to be so blunt but forget it, you're honestly too noob or something to understand so i'll just spell it out for you.Besides FFA PvP there is no longer a reason to go exile. This may come as a shock to you, but Raiding guilds have to continually recruit in order to fill key spots. People quit the game all the time for one reason or another. <b>With this new change, There will be almost no way for raiding guilds in exile to recruit, there are no benefits in comparison to being in a city. Those that do go exile from the point of the LU on, will be doing so for PvP, not for raiding.</b><u>Exiles must come back to the cities, or recieve the benefits of being in a city to become a full faction. Otherwise this update is a death sentence by the Dev's to all exile guilds.</u>

[Vlahkmaak]

<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>or they could do just like the PVE servers and save even more code....</p><p>The exile guild hall would reside in the faction the guild leader purchased it from, allow exiles to use city merchants as long as they have faction with that city. The only exception is pvp gear, exiles shouldnt get it, they have the FFA pvp at the cost of all pvp gear.</p><p>Done simple as that.</p></blockquote>Well, I was looking to build a new block for you all but if yu'd be happy with that then it would make the devs job even easier.   I don't believe putting an exiled guild hall in Maj Dul would hurt the quest lines there - if anything it would bring functionality to an almost dead city that is live with quests for lower levels.   I see no reason for the courts not to offer signets if you have appropriate factin with them.  Someone else on anohter post mentioned exiles could never afford a t3 guild house - I don't think that to be the case - a few farming runs of lower lvl tiers and their current VP sweepng should wrack up the requisite faction + adding a PVP vendor and allowing Exiles writ updates from the current pvp quest givers would allow more PVP status also.  For city players that think exiles should have it harder then maybe their signets could cost a bit more to replicate the idea that they have been "stolen" from FP or Q.  I don't think the exiles would believe this was fair though and as it seems like most of them, at least the Venny ones, were never oppossed to opening all classes I see no reason to punish them.  Even if exile was never meant to be a third faction in all reality it is and I see no reason to see it go away.  Perhaps at least allow them t1 and t2 guild halls located in Maj Dul while you consider the effects of the t3 castles.  Maybe just no access to t3 would be the "harder" route.  that still gives exile plenty of amenities, including the strategist - which is pretty much the main one I think we all want (not that the others are all fluff but insa travel to you objective will be nice).

[Kurindor_Mythecnea]

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>or they could do just like the PVE servers and save even more code....</p><p>The exile guild hall would reside in the faction the guild leader purchased it from, allow exiles to use city merchants as long as they have faction with that city. The only exception is pvp gear, exiles shouldnt get it, they have the FFA pvp at the cost of all pvp gear.</p><p>Done simple as that.</p></blockquote>Well, I was looking to build a new block for you all but if yu'd be happy with that then it would make the devs job even easier.   I don't believe putting an exiled guild hall in Maj Dul would hurt the quest lines there - if anything it would bring functionality to an almost dead city that is live with quests for lower levels.   I see no reason for the courts not to offer signets if you have appropriate factin with them.  Someone else on anohter post mentioned exiles could never afford a t3 guild house - I don't think that to be the case - a few farming runs of lower lvl tiers and their current VP sweepng should wrack up the requisite faction + adding a PVP vendor and allowing Exiles writ updates from the current pvp quest givers would allow more PVP status also.  For city players that think exiles should have it harder then maybe their signets could cost a bit more to replicate the idea that they have been "stolen" from FP or Q.  I don't think the exiles would believe this was fair though and as it seems like most of them, at least the Venny ones, were never oppossed to opening all classes I see no reason to punish them.  Even if exile was never meant to be a third faction in all reality it is and I see no reason to see it go away.  Perhaps at least allow them t1 and t2 guild halls located in Maj Dul while you consider the effects of the t3 castles.  Maybe just no access to t3 would be the "harder" route.  that still gives exile plenty of amenities, including the strategist - which is pretty much the main one I think we all want (not that the others are all fluff but insa travel to you objective will be nice). </blockquote><span style="color: #ffff00;">Rejuvenating old, aged zones is an awesome thing that I definitely would appreciate hitting some of the most dreary, like Nektulos Forest and Commonlands. With all classes soon to be open to all factions, I think adding some minute incentive like this would be more than acceptable, as having 1 decked faction to seek for the faction's subjugation always makes things that much more interesting & dynamic, and we all know how easily some can be disuaded and discourged from their niche sectors -- every little thing helps recoup fall-out! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></span>

[Vlahkmaak]

<p>Niou is essentially right when he comments on dedication.   Opus is the only factioned guild raiding on Venekor.  We are 1 mob behind Freeport Alliance.  We SHOULD be ahead of FP alliance.  I would bet we have more bards, coercers, and defilers on our roster than the entire alliance combined.  We have been plagued by people switching jobs, work schedules changing, RL issues such as marriages (who puts family ahead of VP really? - Ok Chaffy's not gonna heal me anymore).   We have alot of people that want to be dedicated raiders and that want to learn but consistently the same 2/3 of the raid force logs in on time and ready to go and has to wait on the other 1/3 dealing with RL issues (I think this was the main reason GW decided to exile - and I can understand why they did).  As a family oriented guild this is a decision we have made AS A GUILD to accept these road blocks and plow ahead so we can complete the content as a guild.  As a result we are still on Veneril and OK - these 2 mobs will die to us even without all classes, especially Veneril, seems like an easier for for Opus  (we did quite well 3 grouping him becuase we lost our east coasters late one night) - our motto is when in doubt do it ahss backwards cause it alwas dies to us that way - witness Meldrath dying to us well before Doomcoil.  Having all classes does not mean these mobs are gonna bend over for us but we hope it will inject a renewed dedication amongst those we need to seek to join our ranks (yes Q are welcome) and fill a 4th raid night to help with progression and maybe a 5th raid night to focus on hate only.   </p><p>I lived in exile for quite some time on my ranger after I left GW way back when.  People who live in exile demonstrate the dedication needed by a raid force to succeed.  That is the main reason the exiles guilds have succeeded in raiding t8.  Also, "having a brigand and a templar in your raid force is a huge advantage to raiding" to quote one of the devs at fan faire in answer to my question regarding this topic.  You add those 2 mian classes with a dedicated raid force and you are going to move forward.  Purity, on Nagafen, is moving forward due to dedication.   As soon as we can find those few people we need (of the appropriate class) that will log on ready to go I expect us to move forward faster.  I expect having a templar in my group will help alot bt it will not be a magic bullet.  I need DEDICATION more than I need a templar but having a templar and dedication will be even better and put us on even footing with the exiles for raiding who are now an entire tier ahead of the factioned cities at the dawn of a new x-pac.  I would expect exile not to come back to cities but to beat the new x-pac first so they can claim first kills.  While guild halls are going to be nice, even sweet, having a well oiled machine ready to kill would be better IMO.  Hell, I just moved outta my slum in big bend to gorwyn so I could be closer to KP.  I don't need nice digs, just 23-30 other people on and read to raid on time and ready to learn as needed.</p>

[Sorffats]

<p>I think it's time for exiled to just understand that exiled wasn't meant to be a third faction to begin with.  SOE has finally done something to alleviate the anomaly.  Exileds rised up in ranks of being the first to accomplish everything because it went from what was supposed to be a detriment to those that chose to go "hardmode" for pvp to "ezmode" for raiding because of the access to all classes.</p><p>To all of you exileds: you had your moment of glory and being the best because you were able to obtain the best.  It is time for you to come to one of three conclusions.  1.  Go to Freeport.  2.  Go to Qeynos.  3.  Stay exiled where you will remain truly exiled.</p><p>What you don't seem to understand is that with the upcomming change, you will STILL be able to function the same as you always have in exiled; only now, you will be able to have the minor perks of city signets, pvp gear, and city housing/guild halls (if you choose a faction).  In which, as far as raiding was concerned, failed to compare to the perk you always had ... access to all classes.  Now that factions will be allowed that major advantage, exileds will no longer be the only ones to have that advantage.</p><p>None of us in factions are saying that the ability to have all classes is going to automatically get us our mythicals and VP gear.  But for those handful of guilds in factions that HAVE managed (despite the incredible odds) to break into VP, will have a much needed boost in being able to accomplish what only exiled could before.</p><p>The two biggest gains for city factions with this, will be templars for freeport and brigands for qeynos.  Raiding MT groups on both sides will have more options for buffs that increase stats, buffs that increase hp, and added healing.   DPS and utility for both sides will have much more to be able to choose from.   For a long time, exileds had the cream of the crop to choose from (as far as selecting classes).  Now factions will have that opportunity.</p><p>We don't pity you, exileds.  You had it too good for too long.</p>

[JOKULL]

<span class="postbody">"Stop feeling sorry for yourselfs and admit that while we exiled (took the easy way out as you put it) and dedicated ourselves to raiding for half a year"Niou if class restiction was not a problem for you then why did you have to exile to raid...That is the question you seem to be very good at dancing around.I am sure there are a few people in exile for pvp purposes (those are the hardmode exiles) but as you make very clear you are there for raiding purposeswich to me seems like the easymode raiding everyone speaks of...if that is not the case then why didnt you accomplish all this in a faction?</span>

[Vlahkmaak]

<cite>JOKULL wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="postbody">"Stop feeling sorry for yourselfs and admit that while we exiled (took the easy way out as you put it) and dedicated ourselves to raiding for half a year"Niou if class restiction was not a problem for you then why did you have to exile to raid...That is the question you seem to be very good at dancing around.I am sure there are a few people in exile for pvp purposes (those are the hardmode exiles) but as you make very clear you are there for raiding purposeswich to me seems like the easymode raiding everyone speaks of...if that is not the case then why didnt you accomplish all this in a faction?</span></blockquote>They did not accomplish this in facton becuase it is actually extremelly hard, at least on Venekor, to get 24+ people together who can be on time, prepared, in the progper AA set up, willing and ready to go.  Raiding is not just about having a mass of 24 people.  You ahve to ahve the right 24 peope.  Barring opposing classes the 24 people you ahve also ahve to be at the top of their game or near top.  Not every lvl 80 is ready to be a raider.  I still ruun inot lvl 80's that need alot of advice on aa set ups for their class - things that some of us have nown for along time.   Some people are ready to try raiding and have only solo'd or grouped - bringing more than 1-2 of those people to a raid to teach them and give them a chance is DETRIMENTAL to a raid force.  They run around looking at everything, ahve to be reminded not to click on anyhing, never to pass the MT, never to open up with big hits on inc before mob is placed and debuffed - things many of us do by instinct.  Exiles exiled to find like moneded people.  Some people stayed in factions to grow as a guild.  The exiles do not feel sorry for themselves and many of them have supported the opening of all classes.  It is our turn to return the favor and support exiles now. 

[Zacarus]

<cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Niou, calm down...really this is a video and for you to conjure up all of these insult sin each of your posts only proves to me You're two years old and you want everythign your way. "pathetic faction people posting here""short sided, immature, revenge seeking noobs""bunch of cry babies""yourself look like a fool when you're typing""Someone from vox talking about accomplishments, shut up""One last thing, The factions are lazy, especially on Venekor" <b>Why don't you stop these hollow insults, sit down, and YOU shut up and listen to what people have been saying in this whole argument.</b></p><p>The factions are not lazy, but lacked people who could give their time to dedicated raiding. Saying they lacked Dedicated players is 50% true, saying they were lazy is 100% false. Maybe you don't realize how much work Purity had to go through to assemble such a raid force? People like you, bailed on the city when RAIDING got hard. People like you, are the TRUE lazy ones. Had you all not left the city because you wante dpetty, easy mythicals...Qeynos and Freeport would've been powerhouses by now. The devs have already stated that exile was meant for Hardcore players, for FFA and challenges. Never did they say...NOT ONCE, "and for accesss to all classes". They simply overlooked it at the time...and we know our devs, everythign is overlooked at some point. If you went exile, for hardcore PvP, this change will not effect you. In fact, you get more of a challenge. For people like you, who are always worried about being on top because of your so-called "Dedication, superiority, and hard work" in raiding....you will have yourself a dilemma. When you went Exile, you didn't suffer the exile penalty because Exile was a powerhouse, a Raider's Haven. Now that it has been fixed to accomodate...once again...a hard lifestyle as it was intended, your suffering starts now sinse you skipped the suffering when you initially left the city.</p><p>THEREFORE:</p><p>Did you exile? (YES)</p><p>Did you know you exiled? (YES)</p><p>Problem solved, you shouldn't be given anything...or permitted to any whining, because you entered your name into the "Are you sure you want to exile" box. Knowing full well the ups and downs.</p><p>Now, being the ups and downs have changed a tad bit...or should I say the exploitation evened out.....</p><p>Are you being kicked out of exile? (NO)</p><p>Do you have a choice to stay if you wanted to? (YES)</p><p>No one is forcing you out. Keep your Master 1's....to me it seems like you're a control-freak who must have things your way. The Factions may be glad to raid with Paladins other than th eone who conctantly called them lazy when they were crippled. End of Story.</p></blockquote>/applaud

[JOKULL]

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>They did not accomplish this in facton becuase it is actually extremelly hard, at least on Venekor, to get 24+ people together who can be on time, prepared, in the progper AA set up, willing and ready to go. Raiding is not just about having a mass of 24 people. You ahve to ahve the right 24 peope. Barring opposing classes the 24 people you ahve also ahve to be at the top of their game or near top. Not every lvl 80 is ready to be a raider. I still ruun inot lvl 80's that need alot of advice on aa set ups for their class - things that some of us have nown for along time. Some people are ready to try raiding and have only solo'd or grouped - bringing more than 1-2 of those people to a raid to teach them and give them a chance is DETRIMENTAL to a raid force. They run around looking at everything, ahve to be reminded not to click on anyhing, never to pass the MT, never to open up with big hits on inc before mob is placed and debuffed - things many of us do by instinct. Exiles exiled to find like moneded people. Some people stayed in factions to grow as a guild. The exiles do not feel sorry for themselves and many of them have supported the opening of all classes. It is our turn to return the favor and support exiles now. </blockquote>I somewhat agree but it sounds to me like if they have 24 like minded people in exile they could have 24 like minded people in a faction but they did not.. why??? And you said "They did not accomplish this in facton becuase it is actually extremelly hard" I believe that is the point of this change..It is so extremelly hard that almost everyone exiled to do it easier. And as for Exiles not feeling sorry for themselves it seems some do and some dont.As a sidenote I am not saying it is impossible to raid or get mythicals in a faction all im saying like you is that it is so extremelly hard that by the time they do pull it off a new expansion is coming out and everything changes..so in my eyes it might as well be impossible..to little to late you could say

[Khrunk]

<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Khrunk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote> Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.</blockquote><p>What do you plan on doing to give exile guilds insentives to go back to the city, at the cost of mostly everything they have worked for?</p><p>Will you allow exiles to go back to the citys with their current masters once?</p><p>Will you allow exile guilds to move with there players back to the citys without have to re-level and re-name a new guild?</p><p>Or will you give alot of people a brand new reason to /quit</p><p>Choose wisely my friend!</p></blockquote>You get to keep your title, your class thanks to the change, all your end game raid gear, and mythical when you return to a city. Even after the downgrade from Master1's to Adept3s members of VA who have been clearing VP for months are still going to be in much better shape than city folk who never made it past doomcoil. What you will loose can be replaced on the market, what you have gained in exile can not be bought. End game raids drop a lot of plat and the change does not go live for a while. Just save up from a few raids, do one less guild split, and buy your people raws to make adept 3s.I suspect some exile guilds will return. If Nexus returns they will likely reactivate Europa, Ressurrection can reactivate Insurrection, and VA could reactivage gray wolves. By reactivating the old guild that an exile guild came from the guild is most of the way to 80 already. Between raids, PvP, and the new writ system on the docks where you can do eight 14k writs at a time in JW regainging a few lost levels will be a cakewalk.The glass is more than half full here. Besides if it wasn't for the devs opening up all classes you would never get to see a guild hall because you would still need to be exiled to raid end game content in the next expansion.</blockquote>Exiles don't need to be punished because their faction counterparts couldn't hack it. Yes, Qeynos on Venekor is stuck on Doomcoil. With Purity on Druusk, it shows thats the result of a lack in dedication and skill, period. It doesn't concern us at all that we're in better shape then the factions, because thats the result of their own laziness. With the exception of my Mythical and my bow, I have 1 piece of VP gear. My boots, they sit in my display slot because their useless and Tramplers boots from PR are superior. What that means is, All of my gear, the best gear, is obtained in the lower tiers that any faction guild is able to access easily.Adept III's can't be compared to Masters, and the loss of 19 T8 Masters (in my case), because SoE decided to screw over the one benefit of being exile just isnt right. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span>IE: If this change had been in the game from the start of PvP servers as it should have been, we never would have left the cities to begin with <span style="color: #ff0000;">Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span>. With that said, our accomplishments in Exile should not be grounds for punishment, as we were only using exile as it was intended <span style="color: #ff0000;">Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span>. Nobody even cared about all of this until Mythicals came into the picture.Also, not sure how it is on Nagafen, but what we'll lose on Venekor can not be replaced on the market. There hasn't been a Paladin master that I need on sale for over 4 months. While the same freaking 4 masters that always drop, continue to be listed for sale. But thats besides the point.The situation here is, you're claiming all of this is some kind of balancing effect for the factions to catch up the exiles, that simply isnt the case. The Faction guilds that dedicated themselves to raiding are already in VP and will have their mythicals shorly. They are already geared just like the rest of us.</blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chris_p_Ratt wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just wish they (the devs) could've come up with something else... like making being a part of a city a real advantage. Exiling a real detriment. Shrug. Interested in hearing your comments. Please feel free. </blockquote>Exiling was always supposed to be a detriment but things like raid gear and mythical epics make it very attractive compared to the negative aspects of it.<span style="color: #ff0000;"> Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span> As time went on though the raid items made going exile very attractive and from the data I have seen many raiders went that route. Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.</blockquote>Sorry about your masters, but it's not punishment of exiles. It's not about exiles because there is nothing wrong with haven. City factions being crippled is the problem. City factions were crippled from the start running a race of the paralympics to see who would win. Along came exile with LU24 and all of the sudden there was a faction that wasn't crippled. After the faction with 2 working legs beat the cripples in the wheelchairs in a race 5 times in a row SOE finally took a close look at the rules of the race, and decided to give the crippled factions 2 working legs. Your faction still works, you still have 2 working legs, and nothing will change for exile after the patch. The only thing that will change is now both exile and city factions will have 2 working legs. Would you like to continue to tell the devs that city factions should go back in the wheelchair so you can always win the race?</blockquote>No, but you sure as hell don't mind them putting exiles in a wheelchair. </blockquote>Exiles still have 2 working legs. Nothing will change about exile as a faction after the all classes for city factions patch goes live. Pitting exile in a race agains 2 other racers that are not in wheelchairs is not putting exile into a wheelchair. The patch is built to help cities, not nerf exiles. Exile will work just the same as it did before, you guys just want to leave it now that city factions will work.</blockquote>Thats crap and you know that. Everything will change about exile as a faction, once the patch goes live, let alone the fact when guildhalls are introduced. The resources that will be in place for the cities will be infinitely better than for what is in haven. Furthermore cities weren't in a wheelchair till they put mythicals in the game, why do you think they only did this change now. I ain't naive enough to believe it took 2+ years of testing and data collecting to figure out cities were broken. It wasn't until they made getting a mythical killing harder raid mobs than previously designed that effectively eliminated factions from killing these mobs. This patch will kill exiles off, i know you're too blind with some sort of exile rage to see it, but it don't change the fact that the writing is on the wall and these forums. Who do you think the dev was talking to when he said he hopes a few exiled guilds come back to the cities? I am pretty sure it means the raiding ones, why would he come on here and say something like that for? Is there something being worked in the plans that requires people to be city faction to accomplish something?

[zorbdan]

Yeah guild halls will have everyone leaving haven. It will be a ghost town soon as this goes live. I would like to extend a warm welcome to all exiles wanting to come to qeynos! Good side FTW !

[Khrunk]

<cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Problem solved, you shouldn't be given anything...or permitted to any whining, because you entered your name into the "Are you sure you want to exile" box. Knowing full well the ups and downs.</p><p><i>t</i><i>he rules of the game have been changed, this was not known when people when exile that they would be fixing the factions.</i></p><p>Now, being the ups and downs have changed a tad bit...or should I say the exploitation evened out.....</p><p><i>Playing the game with all classes is now an exploit? Really so like 90% of the eq2 community is violating the user agreements of the game? [Removed for Content]</i></p><p>No one is forcing you out. Keep your Master 1's....to me it seems like you're a control-freak who must have things your way. The Factions may be glad to raid with Paladins other than th eone who conctantly called them lazy when they were crippled. End of Story.</p><p><i>Fact of the matter is they are forcing us out? Why would a dev that never talks in the pvp forums say we hope you move back.</i></p></blockquote>

[Vlahkmaak]

<cite>JOKULL wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>They did not accomplish this in facton becuase it is actually extremelly hard, at least on Venekor, to get 24+ people together who can be on time, prepared, in the progper AA set up, willing and ready to go. Raiding is not just about having a mass of 24 people. You ahve to ahve the right 24 peope. Barring opposing classes the 24 people you ahve also ahve to be at the top of their game or near top. Not every lvl 80 is ready to be a raider. I still ruun inot lvl 80's that need alot of advice on aa set ups for their class - things that some of us have nown for along time. Some people are ready to try raiding and have only solo'd or grouped - bringing more than 1-2 of those people to a raid to teach them and give them a chance is DETRIMENTAL to a raid force. They run around looking at everything, ahve to be reminded not to click on anyhing, never to pass the MT, never to open up with big hits on inc before mob is placed and debuffed - things many of us do by instinct. Exiles exiled to find like moneded people. Some people stayed in factions to grow as a guild. The exiles do not feel sorry for themselves and many of them have supported the opening of all classes. It is our turn to return the favor and support exiles now. </blockquote>I somewhat agree but it sounds to me like if they have 24 like minded people in exile they could have 24 like minded people in a faction but they did not.. why??? And you said "They did not accomplish this in facton becuase it is actually extremelly hard" I believe that is the point of this change..It is so extremelly hard that almost everyone exiled to do it easier. And as for Exiles not feeling sorry for themselves it seems some do and some dont.</blockquote>It really is extremely hard - once you get set and ready to go one of your main helaers gets switched to a night shift, the troub you just spent PP on outfitting as a dirge becuase he was a long time player goes on hiatus, your coercer takes a job in Japan completely throwing off his raid schedule, your MT moves to another state and and gets thrown 1-2 hours off normal raid time so now your main necro switches to his alt guard and regear up a main, two wizards start college and loose a raid night - alot of RL issues affect raiding.  Finding the people who can maintain an active raid schedule in the smae time zones, or can be in sync with your riad schedule regardless of their time zones, is exceedingly ahrd.  Moving our riad time back 1 hour to accomodate the flurry of job changes dramatically impacted our east coast raiders who now don't get to bed till 2 am their time and have to be to work around 7 am their time - aftermorning raid nights are rough on them.  These are all things to consider and are all ahrd to work around.  Having 24 people in a raid is vastly different from having a raid force.  Opus has always been a factioned guild, we ahve always been striving to maintain an active raid frce and it is not as easy at many people think it is.   In addition toeverything else you ahve to ahve raiders willing to stand down and not be in on a kill, even if it is a potential mythical update for them if the raid force needs a different class.  Many people new to raiding, and even some old dogs, get really irritated when asked to stand down for a different class.  Raiding is not a popularity contest it is an exercise in situational awareness and sacrifce is needed on everyones part.

[Wytie]

<cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think it's time for exiled to just understand that exiled wasn't meant to be a third faction to begin with.  SOE has finally done something to alleviate the anomaly.  Exileds rised up in ranks of being the first to accomplish everything because it went from what was supposed to be a detriment to those that chose to go "hardmode" for pvp to "ezmode" for raiding because of the access to all classes.</p><p>To all of you exileds: you had your moment of glory and being the best because you were able to obtain the best.  It is time for you to come to one of three conclusions.  1.  Go to Freeport.  2.  Go to Qeynos.  3.  Stay exiled where you will remain truly exiled.</p><p>What you don't seem to understand is that with the upcomming change, you will STILL be able to function the same as you always have in exiled; only now, you will be able to have the minor perks of city signets, pvp gear, and city housing/guild halls (if you choose a faction).  In which, as far as raiding was concerned, failed to compare to the perk you always had ... access to all classes.  Now that factions will be allowed that major advantage, exileds will no longer be the only ones to have that advantage.</p><p>None of us in factions are saying that the ability to have all classes is going to automatically get us our mythicals and VP gear.  But for those handful of guilds in factions that HAVE managed (despite the incredible odds) to break into VP, will have a much needed boost in being able to accomplish what only exiled could before.</p><p>The two biggest gains for city factions with this, will be templars for freeport and brigands for qeynos.  Raiding MT groups on both sides will have more options for buffs that increase stats, buffs that increase hp, and added healing.   DPS and utility for both sides will have much more to be able to choose from.   For a long time, exileds had the cream of the crop to choose from (as far as selecting classes).  Now factions will have that opportunity.</p><p>We don't pity you, exileds.  You had it too good for too long.</p></blockquote><p>What you and everyone else don't seem to understand, is the impact of a huge problem trying to recruit for a exiled raiding guild this will cause in the future.</p><p>I understand this would take logic and reasoning but please don't strain yourself in doing so trying to comprehend this in its entirety.</p><p>I could care less of your pity its obvious the devs cant even comprehend this situation in its entirety so there's no way I could fathom you to be able to do so....</p><p>Sure nothing will really change at first, except for the fact that a  % of exiles will leave exile to do the same exact thing in a city, and then from that point on it will be a constant struggle to recruit anyone to exile for the purpose of raiding.</p><p>If SOE isn't careful they will lose even more raiders as a result, its not a balanced change.</p><p>I understand it was not SOE intent of people on pvp servers to have to exile to raid but it's a result of the past 2 years of there doing. It's a slap in the face, a screw up on there part, not exile's. So now they choose to fix it all the while screwing over everyone who had the balls to do what it took to get things done.</p><p>So now you have a % of exiles who would rather quit than go back because of the hassle of gaining new spells and another % of exiles who want to go back for all the perks only city folks get.  So I guess we call the update the "Operation Exile Home wrecker"</p>

[Khrunk]

<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Khrunk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I exiled to join the people with the right mind set for raiding. </p></blockquote>What, exactly, prevented City guilds from having the "right mind set for raiding?" I can understand it on a PvE server, where there aren't really any factions at all worth talking about, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this assertion on a PvP server.</blockquote>VA insists there is a shortage of dedicated raiders on Venekor, and said dedication is the reason why they have succeeded where the raid alliances have failed. On Nagafen 7 guilds are currently in VP 2 Qeynos, 1 Freeport, and 4 exile with the 4 exiled guilds clearing it on a weekly basis. There is no lack of dedicated raiders on Nagafen. VA still has access to all classes and the dedicated raiders. Nothing has nerfed exile. VA doesn't see it, but this is the class balance equivalent of Brigands protesting against Summoners getting some dev love because they enjoy the easy kills from helpless summoners.</blockquote>havent you raided in an alliance before you exiled to dom? </blockquote>Nope. Went from the Rat Pack, to Vindication, to TO, to DOM<cite></cite></blockquote>Ohh really? So you have no clue as to what its like raiding in an alliance. Thanks for your very insightful input on this matter than, but let me give you a lil hint on what its like <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=427152" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=427152</a>I really don't see a reason why they might not be able to beat nexona in vp. Do you?

[JOKULL]

<cite>Khrunk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Problem solved, you shouldn't be given anything...or permitted to any whining, because you entered your name into the "Are you sure you want to exile" box. Knowing full well the ups and downs.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><i>t</i><i>he rules of the game have been changed, this was not known when people when exile that they would be fixing the factions.</i></span></p><p>Now, being the ups and downs have changed a tad bit...or should I say the exploitation evened out.....</p><p><i>Playing the game with all classes is now an exploit? Really so like 90% of the eq2 community is violating the user agreements of the game? [Removed for Content]</i></p><p>No one is forcing you out. Keep your Master 1's....to me it seems like you're a control-freak who must have things your way. The Factions may be glad to raid with Paladins other than th eone who conctantly called them lazy when they were crippled. End of Story.</p><p><i>Fact of the matter is they are forcing us out? Why would a dev that never talks in the pvp forums say we hope you move back.</i></p></blockquote></blockquote>Unfortunately this is an ongoing live game wich has changed many many times before this and will change many many times after so that is no excuse

[Khrunk]

<cite>JOKULL wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Khrunk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Problem solved, you shouldn't be given anything...or permitted to any whining, because you entered your name into the "Are you sure you want to exile" box. Knowing full well the ups and downs.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><i>t</i><i>he rules of the game have been changed, this was not known when people when exile that they would be fixing the factions.</i></span></p><p>Now, being the ups and downs have changed a tad bit...or should I say the exploitation evened out.....</p><p><i>Playing the game with all classes is now an exploit? Really so like 90% of the eq2 community is violating the user agreements of the game? [Removed for Content]</i></p><p>No one is forcing you out. Keep your Master 1's....to me it seems like you're a control-freak who must have things your way. The Factions may be glad to raid with Paladins other than th eone who conctantly called them lazy when they were crippled. End of Story.</p><p><i>Fact of the matter is they are forcing us out? Why would a dev that never talks in the pvp forums say we hope you move back.</i></p></blockquote></blockquote>Unfortunately this is an ongoing live game wich has changed many many times before this and will change many many times after so that is no excuse</blockquote>Actually its fact not so much of an excuse. Punishing people for the playing how the designers intended the game to be is ludicrous. And if it wasn't intended to be this way why are they opening all classes to the factions for?

[JOKULL]

<cite>Khrunk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Actually its fact not so much of an excuse. Punishing people for the playing how the designers intended the game to be is ludicrous. <span style="color: #ff0000;">And if it wasn't intended to be this way why are they opening all classes to the factions for?</span></blockquote>Sorry if I came off rude on the last post wasnt intending to.. Actualy this game was intended and has had all 24 classes for raiding since the beginning on all servers except pvp.. I understand what you are saying.. It does realy suck to think of losing the things you have earned but this can be said about many many other changes this game has gone through already  as well.

[zorbdan]

Operation home wrecker HAHAHA I LOLed IRL at that ! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />As far as the OP suggestion of Maj dul. That might not be too bad really, when exile was introduced I kinda thought Maj Dul was going to be thier home cause they could buy houses there etc ..  but then they made haven. It all boils down to wether or not the devs want 3 factions or not. Making Maj Dul into a fully functional faction city for exiles would maybe solve some issues for exiles but giving them PvP armor vendors and all the perks of FP/Q seems a bit much. They have mythicals and lots of fabled gear already so now they can flesh out all their gear by easily killing FPs/Qs? Also one other thing to consider is this would turn Maj Dul into a very volitile city. You would have all 3 factions able to operate from that city turning it into a blood bath, hmmm that might actually fun <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> . It might become really hard to do the quests from there though. IMO exile should have some drawbacks and giving them everything from a city faction is  a bad idea.Give them Maj Dul for guild halls and housing but nothing else, no pvp or status vendors etc ..

[Khrunk]

<cite>JOKULL wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Khrunk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Actually its fact not so much of an excuse. Punishing people for the playing how the designers intended the game to be is ludicrous. <span style="color: #ff0000;">And if it wasn't intended to be this way why are they opening all classes to the factions for?</span></blockquote>Sorry if I came off rude on the last post wasnt intending to.. Actualy this game was intended and has had all 24 classes for raiding since the beginning on all servers except pvp.. I understand what you are saying.. It does realy suck to think of losing the things you have earned but this can be said about many many other changes this game has gone through already as well.</blockquote>you got a point there

[Elanjar]

** Edited because we need to learn to play a little nicer with the other elves and dwarves.Please watch it in the future.--Kiara

[Wytie]

<cite>GrandMasterUb wrote:</cite><blockquote>edited </blockquote><p>edited because she edited <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Wytie]

<cite></cite><p>double post ftl</p>

[Gimet]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Niou, calm down...really this is a video and for you to conjure up all of these insult sin each of your posts only proves to me You're two years old and you want everythign your way. "pathetic faction people posting here""short sided, immature, revenge seeking noobs""bunch of cry babies""yourself look like a fool when you're typing""Someone from vox talking about accomplishments, shut up""One last thing, The factions are lazy, especially on Venekor" <b>Why don't you stop these hollow insults, sit down, and YOU shut up and listen to what people have been saying in this whole argument.</b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff6600;">The factions are not lazy, but lacked people who could give their time to dedicated raiding.</span></b> Saying they lacked Dedicated players is 50% true, saying they were lazy is 100% false. <span style="color: #ff6600;"><b><u>Maybe you don't realize how much work Purity had to go through to assemble such a raid force?</u></b><b>People like you, bailed on the city</b></span> when RAIDING got hard. People like you, are the TRUE lazy ones. Had you all not left the city because you wante dpetty, easy mythicals...Qeynos and Freeport would've been powerhouses by now. The devs have already stated that exile was meant for Hardcore players, for FFA and challenges. Never did they say...NOT ONCE, "and for accesss to all classes". They simply overlooked it at the time...and we know our devs, everythign is overlooked at some point. If you went exile, for hardcore PvP, this change will not effect you. In fact, you get more of a challenge. For people like you, who are always worried about being on top because of your so-called "Dedication, superiority, and hard work" in raiding....you will have yourself a dilemma. When you went Exile, you didn't suffer the exile penalty because Exile was a powerhouse, a Raider's Haven. Now that it has been fixed to accomodate...once again...a hard lifestyle as it was intended, your suffering starts now sinse you skipped the suffering when you initially left the city.</p><p>THEREFORE:</p><p>Did you exile? (YES)</p><p>Did you know you exiled? (YES)</p><p>Problem solved, you shouldn't be given anything...or permitted to any whining, because you entered your name into the "Are you sure you want to exile" box. Knowing full well the ups and downs.</p><p>Now, being the ups and downs have changed a tad bit...or should I say the exploitation evened out.....</p><p>Are you being kicked out of exile? (NO)</p><p>Do you have a choice to stay if you wanted to? (YES)</p><p>No one is forcing you out. Keep your Master 1's....to me it seems like you're a control-freak who must have things your way. The Factions may be glad to raid with Paladins other than th eone who conctantly called them lazy when they were crippled. End of Story.</p></blockquote>All of you're assumptions could not be more hilarious. The Dev's, knowing all they do, simply missed the fact that if someone from Qeynos exiled, and someone from Freeport exiled, they'd end up in haven together? You're either being willfully ignorant of the fact that the Dev's knew this, or you're literally so wrapped up in you're hate, that you fail to see how insane that sounds.The Dev already explained that they were aware of it, they had to be. It was simply the changes in Raid Content and Rewards that drew attention from the PLAYERS.That mean's, for all of you that can't quite grasp it. It was fine and dandy for people to go exile when the PvP gear was better then the PvE raid gear. You're all just jealous kids and its obvious to everyone but you. People exiled and put forth the effort, around 6 months of it, to ONLY NOW start truly "farming VP" and you're upset because you can't have everything they have handed to you. Its really that simple.I highlighted the above for you because thats the best part of everything you said. Of course I realize how much work it is to form a raid guild capable of taking down the encounters. Again, all of you don't seem to realize that simply having all classes, doesn't mean the mob's simply lay down and die for you. We have tons of people in VA that sacrafice what they'd rather play, and play a needed class for us in order to successfully raid and fill required spots. They leveled alts for needed positions, members that quit gave their characters to other members so we could use their class if needed. Why? Because as exile we depend on eachother and nobody else. You're sitting there whining and crying because of what? We didn't stick around to help you out? For the last time, YOU ARE NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY. Grey Wolves was never part of any pathetic alliance. We raided by ourselves and when it came time, we exiled and continued to raid by ourselves. We didn't "bail" on you, we never had anything to do with you. Stop feeling sorry for yourselfs and admit that while we exiled (took the easy way out as you put it) and dedicated ourselves to raiding for half a year, you sat there and did NOTHING. You are from Qeynos also, and yet have accomplished NOTHING when Purity is already in VP. While you had a pity party and continued to do NOTHING, the freeport side got its act together and is now just outside VP, While you sit on the first tier. Waiting for hand outs.Also, if this is just a "tad change" as you put it, whats the big fuss about? Could you be honest for even a second and admit that you know the Dev's just stripped exiles of everything that drew people to it? <u>I'm not saying it, but any true guild leader should be able to figure out why exactly exiles are screwed beyond belief now. I already said, you people are short sided. The exiles either have to come back to the city, or gain what the cities have. There is no middle ground.</u>I'm honestly done with all of this crap. You're lazy, don't want to admit it? thats fine, you're raid progress speaks for itself. The Dev's will have to figure out what to do from here, and I doubt they'll listen to a bunch of short sided kids.</blockquote><p>Yes, we're COMPLETELY lazy because we have lives offline, obviously unlike you, and are not able to dedicate all of our love and attention to EQ2. Yes, we are also completely lazy because people like you left and crippled city factions. Yes, everyone left in the cities are completely lazy for a lot of things according to you....which doesn't suprise me from what you've posted the past few days. You want to take this game seriously? Fine, here we go.</p><p>This is an MMORPG. What YOU do affects the people around you. Although certain peopel were not yoru responsibility, when you bailed on Qeynos you bailed on the people who could've used you as a Paladin.</p><p>I'm still completely amazed you're whining about being in exile...and it's not even a default of the game, meaning you CHOSE to be there.</p><p>And what I find deliciously ironic...is that by your standards....if you were to stay in exile and not be able to create a good raid force, I have every right (once again by how YOU see things) to call you a lazy bum who pathetically can't tak eneough dedication to do something so trivial as raiding...right? The tables have almost completely turned. Cities will be good for raiding, and the same people who BAILED on cities will bail once again from exile. Choose what city you want to stay in before you say anyone lacks dedication....how about that?</p>

[Gimet]

<cite>Khrunk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JOKULL wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Khrunk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Problem solved, you shouldn't be given anything...or permitted to any whining, because you entered your name into the "Are you sure you want to exile" box. Knowing full well the ups and downs.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><i>t</i><i>he rules of the game have been changed, this was not known when people when exile that they would be fixing the factions.</i></span></p><p>Now, being the ups and downs have changed a tad bit...or should I say the exploitation evened out.....</p><p><i>Playing the game with all classes is now an exploit? Really so like 90% of the eq2 community is violating the user agreements of the game? [Removed for Content]</i></p><p>No one is forcing you out. Keep your Master 1's....to me it seems like you're a control-freak who must have things your way. The Factions may be glad to raid with Paladins other than th eone who conctantly called them lazy when they were crippled. End of Story.</p><p><i>Fact of the matter is they are forcing us out? Why would a dev that never talks in the pvp forums say we hope you move back.</i></p></blockquote></blockquote>Unfortunately this is an ongoing live game wich has changed many many times before this and will change many many times after so that is no excuse</blockquote>Actually its fact not so much of an excuse. Punishing people for the playing how the designers intended the game to be is ludicrous. And if it wasn't intended to be this way why are they opening all classes to the factions for?</blockquote><p>Using exile as a raiding faction because of it's access to all classes could probably be called an exploit after what the dev said. Why? Because on PvP servers they purposely made Freeport and Qeynos lack classes, and at the same time made Exile lack items and abilities. They even said it was supposed to be the Hard-core player's faction. It's very possible that they overlooked the full 24 class set available in Exile...I mean come on, we're talking about devs who are trying to understand PvP when they don't even play it. Step farther from that and we're talkign abotu EQ2 devs PERIOD. (No offense devs?)</p><p>And punishing people for playing how the designers intended the game to be is NOT ludicrous. Nerfs stem from community complaints, same with exploitation fixes. But, before nerfed or exploited, were they not workign the way devs programed them? Intentions sometimes...no...ALWAYS come with things not intended.</p>

[Izzypop]

<cite>Khrunk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Khrunk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote> Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.</blockquote><p>What do you plan on doing to give exile guilds insentives to go back to the city, at the cost of mostly everything they have worked for?</p><p>Will you allow exiles to go back to the citys with their current masters once?</p><p>Will you allow exile guilds to move with there players back to the citys without have to re-level and re-name a new guild?</p><p>Or will you give alot of people a brand new reason to /quit</p><p>Choose wisely my friend!</p></blockquote>You get to keep your title, your class thanks to the change, all your end game raid gear, and mythical when you return to a city. Even after the downgrade from Master1's to Adept3s members of VA who have been clearing VP for months are still going to be in much better shape than city folk who never made it past doomcoil. What you will loose can be replaced on the market, what you have gained in exile can not be bought. End game raids drop a lot of plat and the change does not go live for a while. Just save up from a few raids, do one less guild split, and buy your people raws to make adept 3s.I suspect some exile guilds will return. If Nexus returns they will likely reactivate Europa, Ressurrection can reactivate Insurrection, and VA could reactivage gray wolves. By reactivating the old guild that an exile guild came from the guild is most of the way to 80 already. Between raids, PvP, and the new writ system on the docks where you can do eight 14k writs at a time in JW regainging a few lost levels will be a cakewalk.The glass is more than half full here. Besides if it wasn't for the devs opening up all classes you would never get to see a guild hall because you would still need to be exiled to raid end game content in the next expansion.</blockquote>Exiles don't need to be punished because their faction counterparts couldn't hack it. Yes, Qeynos on Venekor is stuck on Doomcoil. With Purity on Druusk, it shows thats the result of a lack in dedication and skill, period. It doesn't concern us at all that we're in better shape then the factions, because thats the result of their own laziness. With the exception of my Mythical and my bow, I have 1 piece of VP gear. My boots, they sit in my display slot because their useless and Tramplers boots from PR are superior. What that means is, All of my gear, the best gear, is obtained in the lower tiers that any faction guild is able to access easily.Adept III's can't be compared to Masters, and the loss of 19 T8 Masters (in my case), because SoE decided to screw over the one benefit of being exile just isnt right. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span>IE: If this change had been in the game from the start of PvP servers as it should have been, we never would have left the cities to begin with <span style="color: #ff0000;">Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span>. With that said, our accomplishments in Exile should not be grounds for punishment, as we were only using exile as it was intended <span style="color: #ff0000;">Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span>. Nobody even cared about all of this until Mythicals came into the picture.Also, not sure how it is on Nagafen, but what we'll lose on Venekor can not be replaced on the market. There hasn't been a Paladin master that I need on sale for over 4 months. While the same freaking 4 masters that always drop, continue to be listed for sale. But thats besides the point.The situation here is, you're claiming all of this is some kind of balancing effect for the factions to catch up the exiles, that simply isnt the case. The Faction guilds that dedicated themselves to raiding are already in VP and will have their mythicals shorly. They are already geared just like the rest of us.</blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chris_p_Ratt wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just wish they (the devs) could've come up with something else... like making being a part of a city a real advantage. Exiling a real detriment. Shrug. Interested in hearing your comments. Please feel free. </blockquote>Exiling was always supposed to be a detriment but things like raid gear and mythical epics make it very attractive compared to the negative aspects of it.<span style="color: #ff0000;"> Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option.</span> As time went on though the raid items made going exile very attractive and from the data I have seen many raiders went that route. Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.</blockquote>Sorry about your masters, but it's not punishment of exiles. It's not about exiles because there is nothing wrong with haven. City factions being crippled is the problem. City factions were crippled from the start running a race of the paralympics to see who would win. Along came exile with LU24 and all of the sudden there was a faction that wasn't crippled. After the faction with 2 working legs beat the cripples in the wheelchairs in a race 5 times in a row SOE finally took a close look at the rules of the race, and decided to give the crippled factions 2 working legs. Your faction still works, you still have 2 working legs, and nothing will change for exile after the patch. The only thing that will change is now both exile and city factions will have 2 working legs. Would you like to continue to tell the devs that city factions should go back in the wheelchair so you can always win the race?</blockquote>No, but you sure as hell don't mind them putting exiles in a wheelchair. </blockquote>Exiles still have 2 working legs. Nothing will change about exile as a faction after the all classes for city factions patch goes live. Pitting exile in a race agains 2 other racers that are not in wheelchairs is not putting exile into a wheelchair. The patch is built to help cities, not nerf exiles. Exile will work just the same as it did before, you guys just want to leave it now that city factions will work.</blockquote>Thats crap and you know that. Everything will change about exile as a faction, once the patch goes live, let alone the fact when guildhalls are introduced. The resources that will be in place for the cities will be infinitely better than for what is in haven. Furthermore cities weren't in a wheelchair till they put mythicals in the game, why do you think they only did this change now. I ain't naive enough to believe it took 2+ years of testing and data collecting to figure out cities were broken. <b><span style="color: #ffff00;">It wasn't until they made getting a mythical killing harder raid mobs than previously designed that effectively eliminated factions from killing these mobs</span></b>. This patch will kill exiles off, i know you're too blind with some sort of exile rage to see it, but it don't change the fact that the writing is on the wall and these forums. Who do you think the dev was talking to when he said he hopes a few exiled guilds come back to the cities? I am pretty sure it means the raiding ones, why would he come on here and say something like that for? Is there something being worked in the plans that requires people to be city faction to accomplish something?</blockquote>City factions have always been behind exiles.  The problem has been  there for 2 years, soe just choose to ignore it because it wasn't as big of problem in teir7.   3 guilds killed wuushi in tier 7, 2 exiles and  1 city.  The 1 city guild was months behind the exile guild.   Then came tier 8.  I'm going to repeat what you said again.<cite>Khrunk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite> <b><span style="color: #ffff00;">It wasn't until they made getting a mythical killing harder raid mobs than previously designed that effectively eliminated factions from killing these mobs</span></b>. </blockquote>Harder raid encounters effictivly eliminated city raids from eliminating end game content.  That translates to only 1 faction in the game can do end game content.  If that doesn't put city factions in a wheelchair I don't know what does.  The devs made harder raid mobs in teir8 ROK, and they will make even harder raid mobs in tier8B TOS.  TOS raid mobs are going to be made for guilds that have already killed Trakanon so mythicals will probaby be a minimal gear requirement to take on these mobs.  That will make raid mobs even more difficult further eliminating city factions  if they do not open all classes as planned.Exile as a faction will die on Venekor because of the lack of hardcore PvPers.  Exile will probably loose over half but less than 2/3s of it's members on Nagafen, but since there are  4 exile guilds currently clearing VP plus alt guilds and friends in exile on Nagafen Exile will still remain a faction and the top guild of the server on Nagafen will remain exiled.  The core of VA/Onyx are the best raiders on Nagafen, and value FFA PvP more than they value signets or PvP gear.  Other players will choose to remain with the core of VA/Onyx because they value playing with high caliber players more than PvP gear.  Exile lives on.

[Khrunk]

<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite> Exile lives on.</blockquote>You say so but this quote says otherwise and quite frankly i believe a dev over you. Pretty sure we all know what exile guilds he is talking about, and if this isn't an ultimatum then i don't know what one is.<span class="postbody"><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chris_p_Ratt wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just wish they (the devs) could've come up with something else... like making being a part of a city a real advantage. Exiling a real detriment. Shrug. Interested in hearing your comments. Please feel free. </blockquote>Exiling was always supposed to be a detriment but things like raid gear and mythical epics make it very attractive compared to the negative aspects of it. Exiling was always thought of more for the hard core player who wanted a free for all option. As time went on though the raid items made going exile very attractive and from the data I have seen many raiders went that route. Hopefully a few exile guilds will go back to the cities after this and at the very least the city based guilds will be able to compete with the exile guilds.</blockquote></span>

[Izzypop]

We all  know you guys think ungimping city factions will destroy exile as a faction, but there are plenty of other threads dedicated to that issue where that topic can be debated.  Trolling the idea of finding ways to give exile a guild hall is self destructive to your own faction and shows a lack of respect to those who choose to remain in exile for the FFA pvp after cities gain the ability to PvP raid with all classes.  Let's get back on topic.Tier 1 guildhouses using an empty pre built Maj Dul instance such as court of coin/blades/truth or an empty tower of the moon would be a great idea for both exiled guilds and smaller city guilds who can not afford a larger guild house, but want something other than a cookie cutter copy of a 5 room house.Code writing would be absolutely minimal taking up a minimal amount of manhours.  The zones are already built it's just a simple matter of making them empty and turning them into a house.Upkeep would be minimal.  Exile guilds would have a hard time paying status upkeep on tier 3 guildhouses, but a tier 1 guildhouse would be very easy to maintain.

[Niou]

<cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Niou, calm down...really this is a video and for you to conjure up all of these insult sin each of your posts only proves to me You're two years old and you want everythign your way. "pathetic faction people posting here""short sided, immature, revenge seeking noobs""bunch of cry babies""yourself look like a fool when you're typing""Someone from vox talking about accomplishments, shut up""One last thing, The factions are lazy, especially on Venekor" <b>Why don't you stop these hollow insults, sit down, and YOU shut up and listen to what people have been saying in this whole argument.</b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff6600;">The factions are not lazy, but lacked people who could give their time to dedicated raiding.</span></b> Saying they lacked Dedicated players is 50% true, saying they were lazy is 100% false. <span style="color: #ff6600;"><b><u>Maybe you don't realize how much work Purity had to go through to assemble such a raid force?</u></b><b>People like you, bailed on the city</b></span> when RAIDING got hard. People like you, are the TRUE lazy ones. Had you all not left the city because you wante dpetty, easy mythicals...Qeynos and Freeport would've been powerhouses by now. The devs have already stated that exile was meant for Hardcore players, for FFA and challenges. Never did they say...NOT ONCE, "and for accesss to all classes". They simply overlooked it at the time...and we know our devs, everythign is overlooked at some point. If you went exile, for hardcore PvP, this change will not effect you. In fact, you get more of a challenge. For people like you, who are always worried about being on top because of your so-called "Dedication, superiority, and hard work" in raiding....you will have yourself a dilemma. When you went Exile, you didn't suffer the exile penalty because Exile was a powerhouse, a Raider's Haven. Now that it has been fixed to accomodate...once again...a hard lifestyle as it was intended, your suffering starts now sinse you skipped the suffering when you initially left the city.</p><p>THEREFORE:</p><p>Did you exile? (YES)</p><p>Did you know you exiled? (YES)</p><p>Problem solved, you shouldn't be given anything...or permitted to any whining, because you entered your name into the "Are you sure you want to exile" box. Knowing full well the ups and downs.</p><p>Now, being the ups and downs have changed a tad bit...or should I say the exploitation evened out.....</p><p>Are you being kicked out of exile? (NO)</p><p>Do you have a choice to stay if you wanted to? (YES)</p><p>No one is forcing you out. Keep your Master 1's....to me it seems like you're a control-freak who must have things your way. The Factions may be glad to raid with Paladins other than th eone who conctantly called them lazy when they were crippled. End of Story.</p></blockquote>All of you're assumptions could not be more hilarious. The Dev's, knowing all they do, simply missed the fact that if someone from Qeynos exiled, and someone from Freeport exiled, they'd end up in haven together? You're either being willfully ignorant of the fact that the Dev's knew this, or you're literally so wrapped up in you're hate, that you fail to see how insane that sounds.The Dev already explained that they were aware of it, they had to be. It was simply the changes in Raid Content and Rewards that drew attention from the PLAYERS.That mean's, for all of you that can't quite grasp it. It was fine and dandy for people to go exile when the PvP gear was better then the PvE raid gear. You're all just jealous kids and its obvious to everyone but you. People exiled and put forth the effort, around 6 months of it, to ONLY NOW start truly "farming VP" and you're upset because you can't have everything they have handed to you. Its really that simple.I highlighted the above for you because thats the best part of everything you said. Of course I realize how much work it is to form a raid guild capable of taking down the encounters. Again, all of you don't seem to realize that simply having all classes, doesn't mean the mob's simply lay down and die for you. We have tons of people in VA that sacrafice what they'd rather play, and play a needed class for us in order to successfully raid and fill required spots. They leveled alts for needed positions, members that quit gave their characters to other members so we could use their class if needed. Why? Because as exile we depend on eachother and nobody else. You're sitting there whining and crying because of what? We didn't stick around to help you out? For the last time, YOU ARE NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY. Grey Wolves was never part of any pathetic alliance. We raided by ourselves and when it came time, we exiled and continued to raid by ourselves. We didn't "bail" on you, we never had anything to do with you. Stop feeling sorry for yourselfs and admit that while we exiled (took the easy way out as you put it) and dedicated ourselves to raiding for half a year, you sat there and did NOTHING. You are from Qeynos also, and yet have accomplished NOTHING when Purity is already in VP. While you had a pity party and continued to do NOTHING, the freeport side got its act together and is now just outside VP, While you sit on the first tier. Waiting for hand outs.Also, if this is just a "tad change" as you put it, whats the big fuss about? Could you be honest for even a second and admit that you know the Dev's just stripped exiles of everything that drew people to it? <u>I'm not saying it, but any true guild leader should be able to figure out why exactly exiles are screwed beyond belief now. I already said, you people are short sided. The exiles either have to come back to the city, or gain what the cities have. There is no middle ground.</u>I'm honestly done with all of this crap. You're lazy, don't want to admit it? thats fine, you're raid progress speaks for itself. The Dev's will have to figure out what to do from here, and I doubt they'll listen to a bunch of short sided kids.</blockquote><p>Yes, we're COMPLETELY lazy because we have lives offline, obviously unlike you, and are not able to dedicate all of our love and attention to EQ2. Yes, we are also completely lazy because people like you left and crippled city factions. Yes, everyone left in the cities are completely lazy for a lot of things according to you....which doesn't suprise me from what you've posted the past few days. You want to take this game seriously? Fine, here we go.</p><p>This is an MMORPG. What YOU do affects the people around you. Although certain peopel were not yoru responsibility, when you bailed on Qeynos you bailed on the people who could've used you as a Paladin.</p><p>I'm still completely amazed you're whining about being in exile...and it's not even a default of the game, meaning you CHOSE to be there.</p><p>And what I find deliciously ironic...is that by your standards....if you were to stay in exile and not be able to create a good raid force, I have every right (once again by how YOU see things) to call you a lazy bum who pathetically can't tak eneough dedication to do something so trivial as raiding...right? The tables have almost completely turned. Cities will be good for raiding, and the same people who BAILED on cities will bail once again from exile. Choose what city you want to stay in before you say anyone lacks dedication....how about that?</p></blockquote>It's honestly like arguing with a 15 year old. Alright kid, you're right, I have no life because i'm able to take 3 hours of my day, 5 days a week to play a video game, good argument.I'm done playing with you on this issue, you're not my responsibility, my guildies are. The rest of everything you're saying is pretty much complete trash and i'll let it slide while you keep frothing at the mouth with you're exile rage.Everybody that knows what their talking about in this thread has already agreed with me, it is about dedication, and you don't have it. By all means though, continue you're tantrum and live in self denial, those aspects of you're personality are the very same ones that will prohibit you from ever attaining you're mythical.

[JOKULL]

"<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>"It's honestly like arguing with a 15 year old""Everybody that knows what their talking about in this thread has already agreed with me"</blockquote>I find those statements both very funny, To talk about immaturity then say somthing like the only people that know what they are talking about are the ones who agree with you hahaSo if I understand what your very long and agressive posts are saying in shorter terms is it should be your way or the highway.

[Gimet]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Niou, calm down...really this is a video and for you to conjure up all of these insult sin each of your posts only proves to me You're two years old and you want everythign your way. "pathetic faction people posting here""short sided, immature, revenge seeking noobs""bunch of cry babies""yourself look like a fool when you're typing""Someone from vox talking about accomplishments, shut up""One last thing, The factions are lazy, especially on Venekor" <b>Why don't you stop these hollow insults, sit down, and YOU shut up and listen to what people have been saying in this whole argument.</b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff6600;">The factions are not lazy, but lacked people who could give their time to dedicated raiding.</span></b> Saying they lacked Dedicated players is 50% true, saying they were lazy is 100% false. <span style="color: #ff6600;"><b><u>Maybe you don't realize how much work Purity had to go through to assemble such a raid force?</u></b><b>People like you, bailed on the city</b></span> when RAIDING got hard. People like you, are the TRUE lazy ones. Had you all not left the city because you wante dpetty, easy mythicals...Qeynos and Freeport would've been powerhouses by now. The devs have already stated that exile was meant for Hardcore players, for FFA and challenges. Never did they say...NOT ONCE, "and for accesss to all classes". They simply overlooked it at the time...and we know our devs, everythign is overlooked at some point. If you went exile, for hardcore PvP, this change will not effect you. In fact, you get more of a challenge. For people like you, who are always worried about being on top because of your so-called "Dedication, superiority, and hard work" in raiding....you will have yourself a dilemma. When you went Exile, you didn't suffer the exile penalty because Exile was a powerhouse, a Raider's Haven. Now that it has been fixed to accomodate...once again...a hard lifestyle as it was intended, your suffering starts now sinse you skipped the suffering when you initially left the city.</p><p>THEREFORE:</p><p>Did you exile? (YES)</p><p>Did you know you exiled? (YES)</p><p>Problem solved, you shouldn't be given anything...or permitted to any whining, because you entered your name into the "Are you sure you want to exile" box. Knowing full well the ups and downs.</p><p>Now, being the ups and downs have changed a tad bit...or should I say the exploitation evened out.....</p><p>Are you being kicked out of exile? (NO)</p><p>Do you have a choice to stay if you wanted to? (YES)</p><p>No one is forcing you out. Keep your Master 1's....to me it seems like you're a control-freak who must have things your way. The Factions may be glad to raid with Paladins other than th eone who conctantly called them lazy when they were crippled. End of Story.</p></blockquote>All of you're assumptions could not be more hilarious. The Dev's, knowing all they do, simply missed the fact that if someone from Qeynos exiled, and someone from Freeport exiled, they'd end up in haven together? You're either being willfully ignorant of the fact that the Dev's knew this, or you're literally so wrapped up in you're hate, that you fail to see how insane that sounds.The Dev already explained that they were aware of it, they had to be. It was simply the changes in Raid Content and Rewards that drew attention from the PLAYERS.That mean's, for all of you that can't quite grasp it. It was fine and dandy for people to go exile when the PvP gear was better then the PvE raid gear. You're all just jealous kids and its obvious to everyone but you. People exiled and put forth the effort, around 6 months of it, to ONLY NOW start truly "farming VP" and you're upset because you can't have everything they have handed to you. Its really that simple.I highlighted the above for you because thats the best part of everything you said. Of course I realize how much work it is to form a raid guild capable of taking down the encounters. Again, all of you don't seem to realize that simply having all classes, doesn't mean the mob's simply lay down and die for you. We have tons of people in VA that sacrafice what they'd rather play, and play a needed class for us in order to successfully raid and fill required spots. They leveled alts for needed positions, members that quit gave their characters to other members so we could use their class if needed. Why? Because as exile we depend on eachother and nobody else. You're sitting there whining and crying because of what? We didn't stick around to help you out? For the last time, YOU ARE NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY. Grey Wolves was never part of any pathetic alliance. We raided by ourselves and when it came time, we exiled and continued to raid by ourselves. We didn't "bail" on you, we never had anything to do with you. Stop feeling sorry for yourselfs and admit that while we exiled (took the easy way out as you put it) and dedicated ourselves to raiding for half a year, you sat there and did NOTHING. You are from Qeynos also, and yet have accomplished NOTHING when Purity is already in VP. While you had a pity party and continued to do NOTHING, the freeport side got its act together and is now just outside VP, While you sit on the first tier. Waiting for hand outs.Also, if this is just a "tad change" as you put it, whats the big fuss about? Could you be honest for even a second and admit that you know the Dev's just stripped exiles of everything that drew people to it? <u>I'm not saying it, but any true guild leader should be able to figure out why exactly exiles are screwed beyond belief now. I already said, you people are short sided. The exiles either have to come back to the city, or gain what the cities have. There is no middle ground.</u>I'm honestly done with all of this crap. You're lazy, don't want to admit it? thats fine, you're raid progress speaks for itself. The Dev's will have to figure out what to do from here, and I doubt they'll listen to a bunch of short sided kids.</blockquote><p>Yes, we're COMPLETELY lazy because we have lives offline, obviously unlike you, and are not able to dedicate all of our love and attention to EQ2. Yes, we are also completely lazy because people like you left and crippled city factions. Yes, everyone left in the cities are completely lazy for a lot of things according to you....which doesn't suprise me from what you've posted the past few days. You want to take this game seriously? Fine, here we go.</p><p>This is an MMORPG. What YOU do affects the people around you. Although certain peopel were not yoru responsibility, when you bailed on Qeynos you bailed on the people who could've used you as a Paladin.</p><p>I'm still completely amazed you're whining about being in exile...and it's not even a default of the game, meaning you CHOSE to be there.</p><p>And what I find deliciously ironic...is that by your standards....if you were to stay in exile and not be able to create a good raid force, I have every right (once again by how YOU see things) to call you a lazy bum who pathetically can't tak eneough dedication to do something so trivial as raiding...right? The tables have almost completely turned. Cities will be good for raiding, and the same people who BAILED on cities will bail once again from exile. Choose what city you want to stay in before you say anyone lacks dedication....how about that?</p></blockquote>It's honestly like arguing with a 15 year old. Alright kid, you're right, I have no life because i'm able to take 3 hours of my day, 5 days a week to play a video game, good argument.I'm done playing with you on this issue, you're not my responsibility, my guildies are. The rest of everything you're saying is pretty much complete trash and i'll let it slide while you keep frothing at the mouth with you're exile rage.Everybody that knows what their talking about in this thread has already agreed with me, it is about dedication, and you don't have it. By all means though, continue you're tantrum and live in self denial, those aspects of you're personality are the very same ones that will prohibit you from ever attaining you're mythical.</blockquote><p>I'm throwing a tantrum...while you're sitting there spewing out insults? Wow, and I'm the "kid".I have no rage whatsoever. And of course everyone who "knows what their talking about" would agree with you...because you want to come out on top and be right when you're CLEARLY wrong.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> I'll take you more seriously after you try to stop the insults as well.</p><p>And yes...I am a 15 year old. And yes, 3 hours of many people's day is too much. I get home at 4 PM. I'm taking a college level course in high school, I have to practice my violin for nearly to more than an hour because I'm in the Advnaced orchestra playign proffesional level music, and along with that read 2-3 chapters for 1-2 classes after I get home from school. By the time I'm done I try to spend time with my parents, maybe talk with a few friends on the phone, maybe ride my bike....whatever. If you have enough time to call people who focus on a true life "pathetic", then power to you and I pray for your family. Dedication to people's obligations outside of the game comes before obligations to pixels on a screen and items that can be wiped in 2 seconds. The most I can get in a straight playing period is 8 hours on Saturday. But then comes the next factor...it's an MMORPG, are my 8 hours the same 8 hours as the necessary 24 people in your faciton who are actually GOOD at raiding? And 3 hours for you in exile can take way more than that for a faction. If Factions had 100% Dedication, they would STILL fall behind exiles to the lack of all classes. It's fact, it's established. Most people bailed on city factions for exile, so that's not easy to come by especially when you add in the factor that it's a PvP server. As I've said....lack dedication: 50% true and for justified reasons. Lazy: 100% false.</p><p>And so much for me being 15 years old...you're arguing with me as though you're just as immature as you try to make me seem.</p>

[Natthan]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Niou, calm down...really this is a video and for you to conjure up all of these insult sin each of your posts only proves to me You're two years old and you want everythign your way. "pathetic faction people posting here""short sided, immature, revenge seeking noobs""bunch of cry babies""yourself look like a fool when you're typing""Someone from vox talking about accomplishments, shut up""One last thing, The factions are lazy, especially on Venekor" <b>Why don't you stop these hollow insults, sit down, and YOU shut up and listen to what people have been saying in this whole argument.</b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff6600;">The factions are not lazy, but lacked people who could give their time to dedicated raiding.</span></b> Saying they lacked Dedicated players is 50% true, saying they were lazy is 100% false. <span style="color: #ff6600;"><b><u>Maybe you don't realize how much work Purity had to go through to assemble such a raid force?</u></b><b>People like you, bailed on the city</b></span> when RAIDING got hard. People like you, are the TRUE lazy ones. Had you all not left the city because you wante dpetty, easy mythicals...Qeynos and Freeport would've been powerhouses by now. The devs have already stated that exile was meant for Hardcore players, for FFA and challenges. Never did they say...NOT ONCE, "and for accesss to all classes". They simply overlooked it at the time...and we know our devs, everythign is overlooked at some point. If you went exile, for hardcore PvP, this change will not effect you. In fact, you get more of a challenge. For people like you, who are always worried about being on top because of your so-called "Dedication, superiority, and hard work" in raiding....you will have yourself a dilemma. When you went Exile, you didn't suffer the exile penalty because Exile was a powerhouse, a Raider's Haven. Now that it has been fixed to accomodate...once again...a hard lifestyle as it was intended, your suffering starts now sinse you skipped the suffering when you initially left the city.</p><p>THEREFORE:</p><p>Did you exile? (YES)</p><p>Did you know you exiled? (YES)</p><p>Problem solved, you shouldn't be given anything...or permitted to any whining, because you entered your name into the "Are you sure you want to exile" box. Knowing full well the ups and downs.</p><p>Now, being the ups and downs have changed a tad bit...or should I say the exploitation evened out.....</p><p>Are you being kicked out of exile? (NO)</p><p>Do you have a choice to stay if you wanted to? (YES)</p><p>No one is forcing you out. Keep your Master 1's....to me it seems like you're a control-freak who must have things your way. The Factions may be glad to raid with Paladins other than th eone who conctantly called them lazy when they were crippled. End of Story.</p></blockquote>All of you're assumptions could not be more hilarious. The Dev's, knowing all they do, simply missed the fact that if someone from Qeynos exiled, and someone from Freeport exiled, they'd end up in haven together? You're either being willfully ignorant of the fact that the Dev's knew this, or you're literally so wrapped up in you're hate, that you fail to see how insane that sounds.The Dev already explained that they were aware of it, they had to be. It was simply the changes in Raid Content and Rewards that drew attention from the PLAYERS.That mean's, for all of you that can't quite grasp it. It was fine and dandy for people to go exile when the PvP gear was better then the PvE raid gear. You're all just jealous kids and its obvious to everyone but you. People exiled and put forth the effort, around 6 months of it, to ONLY NOW start truly "farming VP" and you're upset because you can't have everything they have handed to you. Its really that simple.I highlighted the above for you because thats the best part of everything you said. Of course I realize how much work it is to form a raid guild capable of taking down the encounters. Again, all of you don't seem to realize that simply having all classes, doesn't mean the mob's simply lay down and die for you. We have tons of people in VA that sacrafice what they'd rather play, and play a needed class for us in order to successfully raid and fill required spots. They leveled alts for needed positions, members that quit gave their characters to other members so we could use their class if needed. Why? Because as exile we depend on eachother and nobody else. You're sitting there whining and crying because of what? We didn't stick around to help you out? For the last time, YOU ARE NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY. Grey Wolves was never part of any pathetic alliance. We raided by ourselves and when it came time, we exiled and continued to raid by ourselves. We didn't "bail" on you, we never had anything to do with you. Stop feeling sorry for yourselfs and admit that while we exiled (took the easy way out as you put it) and dedicated ourselves to raiding for half a year, you sat there and did NOTHING. You are from Qeynos also, and yet have accomplished NOTHING when Purity is already in VP. While you had a pity party and continued to do NOTHING, the freeport side got its act together and is now just outside VP, While you sit on the first tier. Waiting for hand outs.Also, if this is just a "tad change" as you put it, whats the big fuss about? Could you be honest for even a second and admit that you know the Dev's just stripped exiles of everything that drew people to it? <u>I'm not saying it, but any true guild leader should be able to figure out why exactly exiles are screwed beyond belief now. I already said, you people are short sided. The exiles either have to come back to the city, or gain what the cities have. There is no middle ground.</u>I'm honestly done with all of this crap. You're lazy, don't want to admit it? thats fine, you're raid progress speaks for itself. The Dev's will have to figure out what to do from here, and I doubt they'll listen to a bunch of short sided kids.</blockquote><p>Yes, we're COMPLETELY lazy because we have lives offline, obviously unlike you, and are not able to dedicate all of our love and attention to EQ2. Yes, we are also completely lazy because people like you left and crippled city factions. Yes, everyone left in the cities are completely lazy for a lot of things according to you....which doesn't suprise me from what you've posted the past few days. You want to take this game seriously? Fine, here we go.</p><p>This is an MMORPG. What YOU do affects the people around you. Although certain peopel were not yoru responsibility, when you bailed on Qeynos you bailed on the people who could've used you as a Paladin.</p><p>I'm still completely amazed you're whining about being in exile...and it's not even a default of the game, meaning you CHOSE to be there.</p><p>And what I find deliciously ironic...is that by your standards....if you were to stay in exile and not be able to create a good raid force, I have every right (once again by how YOU see things) to call you a lazy bum who pathetically can't tak eneough dedication to do something so trivial as raiding...right? The tables have almost completely turned. Cities will be good for raiding, and the same people who BAILED on cities will bail once again from exile. Choose what city you want to stay in before you say anyone lacks dedication....how about that?</p></blockquote>It's honestly like arguing with a 15 year old. Alright kid, you're right, I have no life because i'm able to take 3 hours of my day, 5 days a week to play a video game, good argument.I'm done playing with you on this issue, you're not my responsibility, my guildies are. The rest of everything you're saying is pretty much complete trash and i'll let it slide while you keep frothing at the mouth with you're exile rage.Everybody that knows what their talking about in this thread has already agreed with me, it is about dedication, and you don't have it. By all means though, continue you're tantrum and live in self denial, those aspects of you're personality are the very same ones that will prohibit you from ever attaining you're mythical.</blockquote>Do you happen to remember what Rippy the Razor used to say? Follow his advice and it will help you through this obviously rough time <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Niou]

<cite>Natthan@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Do you happen to remember what Rippy the Razor used to say? Follow his advice and it will help you through this obviously rough time <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>Grow up and stop trolling. You're a prime example of everything I said though, so I guess that fits in here somewhere.PS: How's Doomcoil?

[Magius789]

<cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Niou, calm down...really this is a video and for you to conjure up all of these insult sin each of your posts only proves to me You're two years old and you want everythign your way. "pathetic faction people posting here""short sided, immature, revenge seeking noobs""bunch of cry babies""yourself look like a fool when you're typing""Someone from vox talking about accomplishments, shut up""One last thing, The factions are lazy, especially on Venekor" <b>Why don't you stop these hollow insults, sit down, and YOU shut up and listen to what people have been saying in this whole argument.</b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff6600;">The factions are not lazy, but lacked people who could give their time to dedicated raiding.</span></b> Saying they lacked Dedicated players is 50% true, saying they were lazy is 100% false. <span style="color: #ff6600;"><b><u>Maybe you don't realize how much work Purity had to go through to assemble such a raid force?</u></b><b>People like you, bailed on the city</b></span> when RAIDING got hard. People like you, are the TRUE lazy ones. Had you all not left the city because you wante dpetty, easy mythicals...Qeynos and Freeport would've been powerhouses by now. The devs have already stated that exile was meant for Hardcore players, for FFA and challenges. Never did they say...NOT ONCE, "and for accesss to all classes". They simply overlooked it at the time...and we know our devs, everythign is overlooked at some point. If you went exile, for hardcore PvP, this change will not effect you. In fact, you get more of a challenge. For people like you, who are always worried about being on top because of your so-called "Dedication, superiority, and hard work" in raiding....you will have yourself a dilemma. When you went Exile, you didn't suffer the exile penalty because Exile was a powerhouse, a Raider's Haven. Now that it has been fixed to accomodate...once again...a hard lifestyle as it was intended, your suffering starts now sinse you skipped the suffering when you initially left the city.</p><p>THEREFORE:</p><p>Did you exile? (YES)</p><p>Did you know you exiled? (YES)</p><p>Problem solved, you shouldn't be given anything...or permitted to any whining, because you entered your name into the "Are you sure you want to exile" box. Knowing full well the ups and downs.</p><p>Now, being the ups and downs have changed a tad bit...or should I say the exploitation evened out.....</p><p>Are you being kicked out of exile? (NO)</p><p>Do you have a choice to stay if you wanted to? (YES)</p><p>No one is forcing you out. Keep your Master 1's....to me it seems like you're a control-freak who must have things your way. The Factions may be glad to raid with Paladins other than th eone who conctantly called them lazy when they were crippled. End of Story.</p></blockquote>All of you're assumptions could not be more hilarious. The Dev's, knowing all they do, simply missed the fact that if someone from Qeynos exiled, and someone from Freeport exiled, they'd end up in haven together? You're either being willfully ignorant of the fact that the Dev's knew this, or you're literally so wrapped up in you're hate, that you fail to see how insane that sounds.The Dev already explained that they were aware of it, they had to be. It was simply the changes in Raid Content and Rewards that drew attention from the PLAYERS.That mean's, for all of you that can't quite grasp it. It was fine and dandy for people to go exile when the PvP gear was better then the PvE raid gear. You're all just jealous kids and its obvious to everyone but you. People exiled and put forth the effort, around 6 months of it, to ONLY NOW start truly "farming VP" and you're upset because you can't have everything they have handed to you. Its really that simple.I highlighted the above for you because thats the best part of everything you said. Of course I realize how much work it is to form a raid guild capable of taking down the encounters. Again, all of you don't seem to realize that simply having all classes, doesn't mean the mob's simply lay down and die for you. We have tons of people in VA that sacrafice what they'd rather play, and play a needed class for us in order to successfully raid and fill required spots. They leveled alts for needed positions, members that quit gave their characters to other members so we could use their class if needed. Why? Because as exile we depend on eachother and nobody else. You're sitting there whining and crying because of what? We didn't stick around to help you out? For the last time, YOU ARE NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY. Grey Wolves was never part of any pathetic alliance. We raided by ourselves and when it came time, we exiled and continued to raid by ourselves. We didn't "bail" on you, we never had anything to do with you. Stop feeling sorry for yourselfs and admit that while we exiled (took the easy way out as you put it) and dedicated ourselves to raiding for half a year, you sat there and did NOTHING. You are from Qeynos also, and yet have accomplished NOTHING when Purity is already in VP. While you had a pity party and continued to do NOTHING, the freeport side got its act together and is now just outside VP, While you sit on the first tier. Waiting for hand outs.Also, if this is just a "tad change" as you put it, whats the big fuss about? Could you be honest for even a second and admit that you know the Dev's just stripped exiles of everything that drew people to it? <u>I'm not saying it, but any true guild leader should be able to figure out why exactly exiles are screwed beyond belief now. I already said, you people are short sided. The exiles either have to come back to the city, or gain what the cities have. There is no middle ground.</u>I'm honestly done with all of this crap. You're lazy, don't want to admit it? thats fine, you're raid progress speaks for itself. The Dev's will have to figure out what to do from here, and I doubt they'll listen to a bunch of short sided kids.</blockquote><p>Yes, we're COMPLETELY lazy because we have lives offline, obviously unlike you, and are not able to dedicate all of our love and attention to EQ2. Yes, we are also completely lazy because people like you left and crippled city factions. Yes, everyone left in the cities are completely lazy for a lot of things according to you....which doesn't suprise me from what you've posted the past few days. You want to take this game seriously? Fine, here we go.</p><p>This is an MMORPG. What YOU do affects the people around you. Although certain peopel were not yoru responsibility, when you bailed on Qeynos you bailed on the people who could've used you as a Paladin.</p><p>I'm still completely amazed you're whining about being in exile...and it's not even a default of the game, meaning you CHOSE to be there.</p><p>And what I find deliciously ironic...is that by your standards....if you were to stay in exile and not be able to create a good raid force, I have every right (once again by how YOU see things) to call you a lazy bum who pathetically can't tak eneough dedication to do something so trivial as raiding...right? The tables have almost completely turned. Cities will be good for raiding, and the same people who BAILED on cities will bail once again from exile. Choose what city you want to stay in before you say anyone lacks dedication....how about that?</p></blockquote>It's honestly like arguing with a 15 year old. Alright kid, you're right, I have no life because i'm able to take 3 hours of my day, 5 days a week to play a video game, good argument.I'm done playing with you on this issue, you're not my responsibility, my guildies are. The rest of everything you're saying is pretty much complete trash and i'll let it slide while you keep frothing at the mouth with you're exile rage.Everybody that knows what their talking about in this thread has already agreed with me, it is about dedication, and you don't have it. By all means though, continue you're tantrum and live in self denial, those aspects of you're personality are the very same ones that will prohibit you from ever attaining you're mythical.</blockquote><p>I'm throwing a tantrum...while you're sitting there spewing out insults? Wow, and I'm the "kid".I have no rage whatsoever. And of course everyone who "knows what their talking about" would agree with you...because you want to come out on top and be right when you're CLEARLY wrong.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> I'll take you more seriously after you try to stop the insults as well.</p><p>And yes...I am a 15 year old. And yes, 3 hours of many people's day is too much. I get home at 4 PM. I'm taking a college level course in high school, I have to practice my violin for nearly to more than an hour because I'm in the Advnaced orchestra playign proffesional level music, and along with that read 2-3 chapters for 1-2 classes after I get home from school. By the time I'm done I try to spend time with my parents, maybe talk with a few friends on the phone, maybe ride my bike....whatever. If you have enough time to call people who focus on a true life "pathetic", then power to you and I pray for your family. Dedication to people's obligations outside of the game comes before obligations to pixels on a screen and items that can be wiped in 2 seconds. The most I can get in a straight playing period is 8 hours on Saturday. But then comes the next factor...it's an MMORPG, are my 8 hours the same 8 hours as the necessary 24 people in your faciton who are actually GOOD at raiding? And 3 hours for you in exile can take way more than that for a faction. If Factions had 100% Dedication, they would STILL fall behind exiles to the lack of all classes. It's fact, it's established. Most people bailed on city factions for exile, so that's not easy to come by especially when you add in the factor that it's a PvP server. As I've said....lack dedication: 50% true and for justified reasons. Lazy: 100% false.</p><p>And so much for me being 15 years old...you're arguing with me as though you're just as immature as you try to make me seem.</p></blockquote>Wow this 15 year old actually has more maturity and real brains than you do.  You must feel pretty stupid by now but ignorance is bliss so just keep on thinking you've won when obviously the devs, you know the people who actually make this game, disagree with you. . .

[Niou]

<cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Niou, calm down...really this is a video and for you to conjure up all of these insult sin each of your posts only proves to me You're two years old and you want everythign your way. "pathetic faction people posting here""short sided, immature, revenge seeking noobs""bunch of cry babies""yourself look like a fool when you're typing""Someone from vox talking about accomplishments, shut up""One last thing, The factions are lazy, especially on Venekor" <b>Why don't you stop these hollow insults, sit down, and YOU shut up and listen to what people have been saying in this whole argument.</b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff6600;">The factions are not lazy, but lacked people who could give their time to dedicated raiding.</span></b> Saying they lacked Dedicated players is 50% true, saying they were lazy is 100% false. <span style="color: #ff6600;"><b><u>Maybe you don't realize how much work Purity had to go through to assemble such a raid force?</u></b><b>People like you, bailed on the city</b></span> when RAIDING got hard. People like you, are the TRUE lazy ones. Had you all not left the city because you wante dpetty, easy mythicals...Qeynos and Freeport would've been powerhouses by now. The devs have already stated that exile was meant for Hardcore players, for FFA and challenges. Never did they say...NOT ONCE, "and for accesss to all classes". They simply overlooked it at the time...and we know our devs, everythign is overlooked at some point. If you went exile, for hardcore PvP, this change will not effect you. In fact, you get more of a challenge. For people like you, who are always worried about being on top because of your so-called "Dedication, superiority, and hard work" in raiding....you will have yourself a dilemma. When you went Exile, you didn't suffer the exile penalty because Exile was a powerhouse, a Raider's Haven. Now that it has been fixed to accomodate...once again...a hard lifestyle as it was intended, your suffering starts now sinse you skipped the suffering when you initially left the city.</p><p>THEREFORE:</p><p>Did you exile? (YES)</p><p>Did you know you exiled? (YES)</p><p>Problem solved, you shouldn't be given anything...or permitted to any whining, because you entered your name into the "Are you sure you want to exile" box. Knowing full well the ups and downs.</p><p>Now, being the ups and downs have changed a tad bit...or should I say the exploitation evened out.....</p><p>Are you being kicked out of exile? (NO)</p><p>Do you have a choice to stay if you wanted to? (YES)</p><p>No one is forcing you out. Keep your Master 1's....to me it seems like you're a control-freak who must have things your way. The Factions may be glad to raid with Paladins other than th eone who conctantly called them lazy when they were crippled. End of Story.</p></blockquote>All of you're assumptions could not be more hilarious. The Dev's, knowing all they do, simply missed the fact that if someone from Qeynos exiled, and someone from Freeport exiled, they'd end up in haven together? You're either being willfully ignorant of the fact that the Dev's knew this, or you're literally so wrapped up in you're hate, that you fail to see how insane that sounds.The Dev already explained that they were aware of it, they had to be. It was simply the changes in Raid Content and Rewards that drew attention from the PLAYERS.That mean's, for all of you that can't quite grasp it. It was fine and dandy for people to go exile when the PvP gear was better then the PvE raid gear. You're all just jealous kids and its obvious to everyone but you. People exiled and put forth the effort, around 6 months of it, to ONLY NOW start truly "farming VP" and you're upset because you can't have everything they have handed to you. Its really that simple.I highlighted the above for you because thats the best part of everything you said. Of course I realize how much work it is to form a raid guild capable of taking down the encounters. Again, all of you don't seem to realize that simply having all classes, doesn't mean the mob's simply lay down and die for you. We have tons of people in VA that sacrafice what they'd rather play, and play a needed class for us in order to successfully raid and fill required spots. They leveled alts for needed positions, members that quit gave their characters to other members so we could use their class if needed. Why? Because as exile we depend on eachother and nobody else. You're sitting there whining and crying because of what? We didn't stick around to help you out? For the last time, YOU ARE NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY. Grey Wolves was never part of any pathetic alliance. We raided by ourselves and when it came time, we exiled and continued to raid by ourselves. We didn't "bail" on you, we never had anything to do with you. Stop feeling sorry for yourselfs and admit that while we exiled (took the easy way out as you put it) and dedicated ourselves to raiding for half a year, you sat there and did NOTHING. You are from Qeynos also, and yet have accomplished NOTHING when Purity is already in VP. While you had a pity party and continued to do NOTHING, the freeport side got its act together and is now just outside VP, While you sit on the first tier. Waiting for hand outs.Also, if this is just a "tad change" as you put it, whats the big fuss about? Could you be honest for even a second and admit that you know the Dev's just stripped exiles of everything that drew people to it? <u>I'm not saying it, but any true guild leader should be able to figure out why exactly exiles are screwed beyond belief now. I already said, you people are short sided. The exiles either have to come back to the city, or gain what the cities have. There is no middle ground.</u>I'm honestly done with all of this crap. You're lazy, don't want to admit it? thats fine, you're raid progress speaks for itself. The Dev's will have to figure out what to do from here, and I doubt they'll listen to a bunch of short sided kids.</blockquote><p>Yes, we're COMPLETELY lazy because we have lives offline, obviously unlike you, and are not able to dedicate all of our love and attention to EQ2. Yes, we are also completely lazy because people like you left and crippled city factions. Yes, everyone left in the cities are completely lazy for a lot of things according to you....which doesn't suprise me from what you've posted the past few days. You want to take this game seriously? Fine, here we go.</p><p>This is an MMORPG. What YOU do affects the people around you. Although certain peopel were not yoru responsibility, when you bailed on Qeynos you bailed on the people who could've used you as a Paladin.</p><p>I'm still completely amazed you're whining about being in exile...and it's not even a default of the game, meaning you CHOSE to be there.</p><p>And what I find deliciously ironic...is that by your standards....if you were to stay in exile and not be able to create a good raid force, I have every right (once again by how YOU see things) to call you a lazy bum who pathetically can't tak eneough dedication to do something so trivial as raiding...right? The tables have almost completely turned. Cities will be good for raiding, and the same people who BAILED on cities will bail once again from exile. Choose what city you want to stay in before you say anyone lacks dedication....how about that?</p></blockquote>It's honestly like arguing with a 15 year old. Alright kid, you're right, I have no life because i'm able to take 3 hours of my day, 5 days a week to play a video game, good argument.I'm done playing with you on this issue, you're not my responsibility, my guildies are. The rest of everything you're saying is pretty much complete trash and i'll let it slide while you keep frothing at the mouth with you're exile rage.Everybody that knows what their talking about in this thread has already agreed with me, it is about dedication, and you don't have it. By all means though, continue you're tantrum and live in self denial, those aspects of you're personality are the very same ones that will prohibit you from ever attaining you're mythical.</blockquote><p>I'm throwing a tantrum...while you're sitting there spewing out insults? Wow, and I'm the "kid".I have no rage whatsoever. And of course everyone who "knows what their talking about" would agree with you...because you want to come out on top and be right when you're CLEARLY wrong.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> I'll take you more seriously after you try to stop the insults as well.</p><p>And yes...I am a 15 year old. And yes, 3 hours of many people's day is too much. I get home at 4 PM. I'm taking a college level course in high school, I have to practice my violin for nearly to more than an hour because I'm in the Advnaced orchestra playign proffesional level music, and along with that read 2-3 chapters for 1-2 classes after I get home from school. By the time I'm done I try to spend time with my parents, maybe talk with a few friends on the phone, maybe ride my bike....whatever. If you have enough time to call people who focus on a true life "pathetic", then power to you and I pray for your family. Dedication to people's obligations outside of the game comes before obligations to pixels on a screen and items that can be wiped in 2 seconds. The most I can get in a straight playing period is 8 hours on Saturday. But then comes the next factor...it's an MMORPG, are my 8 hours the same 8 hours as the necessary 24 people in your faciton who are actually GOOD at raiding? And 3 hours for you in exile can take way more than that for a faction. If Factions had 100% Dedication, they would STILL fall behind exiles to the lack of all classes. It's fact, it's established. Most people bailed on city factions for exile, so that's not easy to come by especially when you add in the factor that it's a PvP server. As I've said....lack dedication: 50% true and for justified reasons. Lazy: 100% false.</p><p>And so much for me being 15 years old...you're arguing with me as though you're just as immature as you try to make me seem.</p></blockquote>Wow this 15 year old actually has more maturity and real brains than you do. You must feel pretty stupid by now but ignorance is bliss so just keep on thinking you've won when obviously the devs, you know the people who actually make this game, disagree with you. . .</blockquote>Sigh, I know this is hard to understand when all you're trying to do is throw out insults, but try and keep up. One, the Dev's don't "Disagree" with me on anything, I never said the factions shouldn't have all classes, I simply gave ways they could perform without them. Second, The people that actually do know what their talking about here, such as Vlak, who is a raid leader for a faction guild, do agree with me that this is a situation of Dedication.A Qeynos only guild reaches VP on Nagafen, while the Qeynos guilds on Venekor are unable to beat even the first tiers of content. If that's not proof that dedication is the main and absolute factor in why guilds are failing at content, I don't know what is.So, to wrap up and be done with this thread, I hope you managed to keep up with all of that, I know its easy to just pick a side, throw an insult and post, but try and actually read what's going on, it'll save you from looking like an immature noob.

[Magius789]

<p>Well I belong to a city so according to you I'm a stupid noob anyway.  I love how you say you don't have any problem with the change but then all you do is complain about the change and throw insults at everybody.  Like I said if dedication is the sole reason why faction guilds haven't succeeded then you have no problem.  But you throwing a temper tantrum about how you will loose your masters and etc. when no one is forcing you to leave exile is just stupid.  You exiled to raid easier and now that others don't have to do that you are throwing a tantrum because the devs are fixing the problems they've created. . . </p><p>So basically city guilds are failing because they lack the dedication to raid properly and giving them all classess is fine because it won't help that any anyways but you are saying have no problem with the change and have wasted everyones time by posting page after page of complaints about the new change?  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  If you have no problem with it and you don't think city guilds are going to accomplish any more with these changes then why are you complaining so much and crying about loosing your masters when you don't have to leave exile anyway?</p>

[Niou]

<cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well I belong to a city so according to you I'm a stupid noob anyway. I love how you say you don't have any problem with the change but then all you do is complain about the change and throw insults at everybody. Like I said if dedication is the sole reason why faction guilds haven't succeeded then you have no problem. But you throwing a temper tantrum about how you will loose your masters and etc. when no one is forcing you to leave exile is just stupid. You exiled to raid easier and now that others don't have to do that you are throwing a tantrum because the devs are fixing the problems they've created. . . </p><p>So basically city guilds are failing because they lack the dedication to raid properly and giving them all classess is fine because it won't help that any anyways but you are saying have no problem with the change and have wasted everyones time by posting page after page of complaints about the new change? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> If you have no problem with it and you don't think city guilds are going to accomplish any more with these changes then why are you complaining so much and crying about loosing your masters when you don't have to leave exile anyway?</p></blockquote>You honestly make this too easy, alright, here goes, again...keep up.I do not have a problem with the cities having all classes, on the contrary, I believe it'll provide for more competition and better PvP fights. You're right, I do consider many (but not all) faction raiders to be undedicated. Why? Simple, when you look at what certain Guilds have achieved (Not including Exiles, we're on easymode after all), vs what others have not, and the reasons for it, it's easy to come to that conclusion. You don't like that obviously, because it makes you look like what you are, a noob.If a guild under restrictions is able to reach point A. and another guild under the same restrictions is unable to, you have to look at the reasons why. They have access to the same classes, gear, city items, everything. Yet one succeeds by an incredible margin, while the other accomplishes next to nothing. You can come up with all the fairy tale reasons and excuses you want, it's about dedication. Does that mean dedication to a video game? why...yes, it does. I'm sorry everything can't be handed to you at the click of a button. I'm sorry it takes people to form a raid. I'm sorry it takes time to learn an encounter. That is how the game is made, deal with it.Now, on to the other topic's that you seem to be completely ignorant of. First, The reasons for going exile now are crippled in comparison to the reasons for being in a city. Free for all PVP is the only reason. Now, That means that the people exiling will be doing it for the reasons of PvP, not raiding. If there are no raiders exiling, because the benefits no longer exceed or even equal the detriments, then you are unable to recruit. As you've pointed out so many times, you must be able to recruit in order to raid. Thus, This update will sever the lifeblood of any guild, it's power to recruit.Now, are we being forced to go back to the cities? No, but it's basically the same as the Dev's saying, "I'm not going to force you back to the cities, but i'm going to punch you in the face until you do go, and anybody that joins you will recieve the same treatment." Believe it or not, those are not the best conditions to recruit.That's why, exiles that plan to raid, and exiled to raid, will eventually be forced back into the cities. This is why I have posted on this thread and others. Exiles left the cities with an understanding of what they were losing, and what they were gaining. That origional agreement is no longer there. The Dev's gave birth to the beast that has become Exile Guilds, and it's their responsibility to deal with it as best as possible.You can not simply say, "Go through this door and i'll pinch you, but give you 5 dollars", then once through the door, stab them in the back, steal 10 dollars out of their wallet, and call it even. This is however, as of right now with current information, what the Dev's are attempting to do with this change.That is why myself and many exiles are upset. We do NOT care that you are getting all classes.

[Muraazi]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Niou, calm down...really this is a video and for you to conjure up all of these insult sin each of your posts only proves to me You're two years old and you want everythign your way. "pathetic faction people posting here""short sided, immature, revenge seeking noobs""bunch of cry babies""yourself look like a fool when you're typing""Someone from vox talking about accomplishments, shut up""One last thing, The factions are lazy, especially on Venekor" <b>Why don't you stop these hollow insults, sit down, and YOU shut up and listen to what people have been saying in this whole argument.</b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff6600;">The factions are not lazy, but lacked people who could give their time to dedicated raiding.</span></b> Saying they lacked Dedicated players is 50% true, saying they were lazy is 100% false. <span style="color: #ff6600;"><b><u>Maybe you don't realize how much work Purity had to go through to assemble such a raid force?</u></b><b>People like you, bailed on the city</b></span> when RAIDING got hard. People like you, are the TRUE lazy ones. Had you all not left the city because you wante dpetty, easy mythicals...Qeynos and Freeport would've been powerhouses by now. The devs have already stated that exile was meant for Hardcore players, for FFA and challenges. Never did they say...NOT ONCE, "and for accesss to all classes". They simply overlooked it at the time...and we know our devs, everythign is overlooked at some point. If you went exile, for hardcore PvP, this change will not effect you. In fact, you get more of a challenge. For people like you, who are always worried about being on top because of your so-called "Dedication, superiority, and hard work" in raiding....you will have yourself a dilemma. When you went Exile, you didn't suffer the exile penalty because Exile was a powerhouse, a Raider's Haven. Now that it has been fixed to accomodate...once again...a hard lifestyle as it was intended, your suffering starts now sinse you skipped the suffering when you initially left the city.</p><p>THEREFORE:</p><p>Did you exile? (YES)</p><p>Did you know you exiled? (YES)</p><p>Problem solved, you shouldn't be given anything...or permitted to any whining, because you entered your name into the "Are you sure you want to exile" box. Knowing full well the ups and downs.</p><p>Now, being the ups and downs have changed a tad bit...or should I say the exploitation evened out.....</p><p>Are you being kicked out of exile? (NO)</p><p>Do you have a choice to stay if you wanted to? (YES)</p><p>No one is forcing you out. Keep your Master 1's....to me it seems like you're a control-freak who must have things your way. The Factions may be glad to raid with Paladins other than th eone who conctantly called them lazy when they were crippled. End of Story.</p></blockquote>All of you're assumptions could not be more hilarious. The Dev's, knowing all they do, simply missed the fact that if someone from Qeynos exiled, and someone from Freeport exiled, they'd end up in haven together? You're either being willfully ignorant of the fact that the Dev's knew this, or you're literally so wrapped up in you're hate, that you fail to see how insane that sounds.The Dev already explained that they were aware of it, they had to be. It was simply the changes in Raid Content and Rewards that drew attention from the PLAYERS.That mean's, for all of you that can't quite grasp it. It was fine and dandy for people to go exile when the PvP gear was better then the PvE raid gear. You're all just jealous kids and its obvious to everyone but you. People exiled and put forth the effort, around 6 months of it, to ONLY NOW start truly "farming VP" and you're upset because you can't have everything they have handed to you. Its really that simple.I highlighted the above for you because thats the best part of everything you said. Of course I realize how much work it is to form a raid guild capable of taking down the encounters. Again, all of you don't seem to realize that simply having all classes, doesn't mean the mob's simply lay down and die for you. We have tons of people in VA that sacrafice what they'd rather play, and play a needed class for us in order to successfully raid and fill required spots. They leveled alts for needed positions, members that quit gave their characters to other members so we could use their class if needed. Why? Because as exile we depend on eachother and nobody else. You're sitting there whining and crying because of what? We didn't stick around to help you out? For the last time, YOU ARE NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY. Grey Wolves was never part of any pathetic alliance. We raided by ourselves and when it came time, we exiled and continued to raid by ourselves. We didn't "bail" on you, we never had anything to do with you. Stop feeling sorry for yourselfs and admit that while we exiled (took the easy way out as you put it) and dedicated ourselves to raiding for half a year, you sat there and did NOTHING. You are from Qeynos also, and yet have accomplished NOTHING when Purity is already in VP. While you had a pity party and continued to do NOTHING, the freeport side got its act together and is now just outside VP, While you sit on the first tier. Waiting for hand outs.Also, if this is just a "tad change" as you put it, whats the big fuss about? Could you be honest for even a second and admit that you know the Dev's just stripped exiles of everything that drew people to it? <u>I'm not saying it, but any true guild leader should be able to figure out why exactly exiles are screwed beyond belief now. I already said, you people are short sided. The exiles either have to come back to the city, or gain what the cities have. There is no middle ground.</u>I'm honestly done with all of this crap. You're lazy, don't want to admit it? thats fine, you're raid progress speaks for itself. The Dev's will have to figure out what to do from here, and I doubt they'll listen to a bunch of short sided kids.</blockquote><p>Yes, we're COMPLETELY lazy because we have lives offline, obviously unlike you, and are not able to dedicate all of our love and attention to EQ2. Yes, we are also completely lazy because people like you left and crippled city factions. Yes, everyone left in the cities are completely lazy for a lot of things according to you....which doesn't suprise me from what you've posted the past few days. You want to take this game seriously? Fine, here we go.</p><p>This is an MMORPG. What YOU do affects the people around you. Although certain peopel were not yoru responsibility, when you bailed on Qeynos you bailed on the people who could've used you as a Paladin.</p><p>I'm still completely amazed you're whining about being in exile...and it's not even a default of the game, meaning you CHOSE to be there.</p><p>And what I find deliciously ironic...is that by your standards....if you were to stay in exile and not be able to create a good raid force, I have every right (once again by how YOU see things) to call you a lazy bum who pathetically can't tak eneough dedication to do something so trivial as raiding...right? The tables have almost completely turned. Cities will be good for raiding, and the same people who BAILED on cities will bail once again from exile. Choose what city you want to stay in before you say anyone lacks dedication....how about that?</p></blockquote>It's honestly like arguing with a 15 year old. Alright kid, you're right, I have no life because i'm able to take 3 hours of my day, 5 days a week to play a video game, good argument.I'm done playing with you on this issue, you're not my responsibility, my guildies are. The rest of everything you're saying is pretty much complete trash and i'll let it slide while you keep frothing at the mouth with you're exile rage.Everybody that knows what their talking about in this thread has already agreed with me, <b><i><u>it is about dedication</u></i></b>, and you don't have it. By all means though, continue you're tantrum and live in self denial, those aspects of you're personality are the very same ones that will prohibit you from ever attaining you're mythical.</blockquote>Dedication I can agree with. Let me ask you this tho, why do you think, city guilds on a pvp server, should be the only ones with the class disadvantage in the ENTIRE game. Give me one <b><i><u>good </u></i></b>reason. Not something like, you knew it when you rolled on a pvp server. Because quite frankly, so did the exiles.

[Niou]

Ezzur...read the above post. I do not, have not, ever, disagree with the cities gaining all classes.

[Muraazi]

<p>Hmm, so you did, my bad. Jumping into an arguement mid stride ftl I guess. Very sorry. </p>

[Sorffats]

<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think it's time for exiled to just understand that exiled wasn't meant to be a third faction to begin with.  SOE has finally done something to alleviate the anomaly.  Exileds rised up in ranks of being the first to accomplish everything because it went from what was supposed to be a detriment to those that chose to go "hardmode" for pvp to "ezmode" for raiding because of the access to all classes.</p><p>To all of you exileds: you had your moment of glory and being the best because you were able to obtain the best.  It is time for you to come to one of three conclusions.  1.  Go to Freeport.  2.  Go to Qeynos.  3.  Stay exiled where you will remain truly exiled.</p><p>What you don't seem to understand is that with the upcomming change, you will STILL be able to function the same as you always have in exiled; only now, you will be able to have the minor perks of city signets, pvp gear, and city housing/guild halls (if you choose a faction).  In which, as far as raiding was concerned, failed to compare to the perk you always had ... access to all classes.  Now that factions will be allowed that major advantage, exileds will no longer be the only ones to have that advantage.</p><p>None of us in factions are saying that the ability to have all classes is going to automatically get us our mythicals and VP gear.  But for those handful of guilds in factions that HAVE managed (despite the incredible odds) to break into VP, will have a much needed boost in being able to accomplish what only exiled could before.</p><p>The two biggest gains for city factions with this, will be templars for freeport and brigands for qeynos.  Raiding MT groups on both sides will have more options for buffs that increase stats, buffs that increase hp, and added healing.   DPS and utility for both sides will have much more to be able to choose from.   For a long time, exileds had the cream of the crop to choose from (as far as selecting classes).  Now factions will have that opportunity.</p><p>We don't pity you, exileds.  You had it too good for too long.</p></blockquote><p>What you and everyone else don't seem to understand, is the impact of a huge problem trying to recruit for a exiled raiding guild this will cause in the future.</p><p>I understand this would take logic and reasoning but please don't strain yourself in doing so trying to comprehend this in its entirety.</p><p>I could care less of your pity its obvious the devs cant even comprehend this situation in its entirety so there's no way I could fathom you to be able to do so....</p><p>Sure nothing will really change at first, except for the fact that a  % of exiles will leave exile to do the same exact thing in a city, and then from that point on it will be a constant struggle to recruit anyone to exile for the purpose of raiding.</p><p>If SOE isn't careful they will lose even more raiders as a result, its not a balanced change.</p><p>I understand it was not SOE intent of people on pvp servers to have to exile to raid but it's a result of the past 2 years of there doing. It's a slap in the face, a screw up on there part, not exile's. So now they choose to fix it all the while screwing over everyone who had the balls to do what it took to get things done.</p><p>So now you have a % of exiles who would rather quit than go back because of the hassle of gaining new spells and another % of exiles who want to go back for all the perks only city folks get.  So I guess we call the update the "Operation Exile Home wrecker"</p></blockquote><p>Ya see, that is where you are wrong.  I DO get it.  I welcome the fact that exileds will have trouble recruiting.  YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE A FACTION!  There, I have said it again.   I didn't say it was the exileds fault, but SONY did create the problem, and now have finally made the attempt to rectify it.  </p><p>For so long, most exileds would say they are exiled for more pvp choices.  If that is true, then stay exiled for the pvp targets.  You will surely be hardmode then if you can't recruit for raiding purposes.   And for those that are the die hard and hard core raiders that they say they are, then they'll have no problems going to a city and either joining an existing guild (the few that will be welcomed in an already established factioned guild, that is) or reforming their own guild in a city.</p><p>You will have the same options for raiding, and MORE!   You'll still be able to fight all classes, because now they'll be in both cities!  So you won't have as many people in exiled so you can kill each other to get me off your recent anymore so you can take my infamy again in 1 minute instead of 30 minutes....boo-[Removed for Content]-hoo.</p><p>Lastly, I will say that as much as I have abhorred exileds in the past, I don't [Removed for Content] care if you can't recruit.  As I stated previously, you exileds had it too good for too long.  It's time for this much needed change.</p>

[Valdar]

<p>SOE made it so that if you wanted to raid with all classes then you had to exile. After this change you can't raid in Exile in the long run as you can't recruit and you can't be competetive in pvp in Exile as you can't gear up due to a lack of gear. This change is massive, and at the very least SOE should make it so that the people in Exile have a period that they can pick a faction without losing all masters. It's not even the T8 ones that are the biggest problem, but trying to replace all those T6-T7 ancient teachings would be a massive pain, and a lot of players just don't want to spend a ton of plat and massive amounts of time to replace them all again.</p><p>This change could have been implemented in a lot of ways that would have made the impact relatively small. Like making it so you don't lose all spells after betraying if you stay the same class, implementing it at the same time as a raise of the level cap or even by just removing the Exile faction from the game. But it seems that it will be implemented in such a way that it will [Removed for Content] off a large part of the player base. Now this may be gratifying to all the people sore from getting rolled by Exiles in pvp all the time, but I don't appreciate being screwed over by the same people that screwed me over by creating Exile faction in the first place and making it the only logical choice for raiding.</p><p>So please SOE, implement a game change in such a manner that it is customer friendly for once please!</p>

[nastymatt]

<p>I have raided in faction and now currently in exile. Why did I/we go exile? Pvp? All classes? Yes but that was not the main reason. The MAIN reason was we needed 24 very good players who were prepared to put the hours and hours and hours of dedication in to succeed. We joined another guild who had the same issue as us, namely 12-14 very good players and then the rest of the raid was "adequate". We ended up with a good raid force that was prepared to try.</p><p>I see a lot of exile hate and smugness at how you think you have "won" or "shown the exiles". Quite clearly these people have not put in the required effort to get to VP or clear it. If you are not raiding 4-6 days a week at 4-5 hours at a time having all classes is not going to get you to VP. Sorry to say! You are deluding yourself if you think getting a couple of templars in your raid is going to suddendly get you to VP. I predict no new guilds will make VP by Christmas even with all classes. The same 3 faction guilds (on Naggy) will just find it easier in VP. </p><p>Most raid mobs are keeping the MT alive and having the strats. So who will gain out of this? Freeport. There are only 2 decent dps fights in VP so Q's are not going to benefit. Pvp? Again... it will be Freeps who benefit - getting templars!! If I was a Q I'd be voting no, if I was a freep - I'd be voting yes. As an exile? Bah.. I don't care really. If we go to a faction we'll go as a whole guild and take all our mythicals and VP set gear and get the Pvp stuff, so getting tougher.  No doubt we'll get applications from these haters who will want mythicals but will put their pride aside to get it off our exile accomplishments.</p><p>Class balance is not the issue in EQ2, it's the ridiculous pvp rule set and the players who have ruined the game with chokers/unraided pvp/god spelling/double god spelling/perma immunity/dock camping/rez zerging/back up groups just off radar/etc </p><p>So, if your guild is faction based, has 24 very good players,  raiding 6 times a week at 4 hours at a time - you will benefit from this change,  but they are already in VP.</p><p>The rest? Sorry, it will make very little difference to you.</p>

[Gimet]

<p>Factions asked for SUCCESSFUL raiding chances.</p><p>You're asking to keep your master 1's, because obviously that's the only thing stopping you from going to a city. Well, you tell me, are YOU the responsibility of your guild as much as you say the guild is your responsiblity? YOu should be, they should provide for you if they want to keep a successful guild. And are your raid buddies anything like you, and throw this much of a tantrum at the thought of people bailing (which has become common among you exiles) or losing masters (which has been the rule sinse day 1)? Well, if they have any reason to like you it may be this....and if they are like you I can guarantee your raid friends won't leave exile for the cities.</p><p>What's the Problem?</p><p>Cities get an EASIER mode of raiding, which doesn't hurt you.</p><p>You stay in exile and you keep your mode of raiding that has prevailed sinse the expansion came out, no change whatsoever.</p><p>You obviously don't care for anybody but your guild, and you call raid alliances "pathetic", so if your guild is that great and stays and everyone else bailed....there still isn't an issue. It's just like how Purity made it into VA with such trivial dedication...and lack of lazyness. I'm sure Exile could do it too.</p><p>No, your logic is very wrong. And more than 3 posts ago did you say you were done with this argument. Have you ever tried Square Breathing? Calm down, stop throwing a tantrum, and then you'll realize that your hyperventilating and throwing insults is unnecessary.</p><p>Dedication solves everything. And exile is the harder faction, but that'll be solved by your god-like dedication.</p><p>You can do it. Si se puede!</p>

[Paikis]

<cite>Phaust@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>SOE made it so that if you wanted to raid with all classes then you had to exile. After this change you can't raid in Exile in the long run as you can't recruit and you can't be competetive in pvp in Exile as you can't gear up due to a lack of gear. This change is massive, and at the very least SOE should make it so that the people in Exile have a period that they can pick a faction without losing all masters. It's not even the T8 ones that are the biggest problem, but trying to replace all those T6-T7 ancient teachings would be a massive pain, and a lot of players just don't want to spend a ton of plat and massive amounts of time to replace them all again.</p><p>This change could have been implemented in a lot of ways that would have made the impact relatively small. Like making it so you don't lose all spells after betraying if you stay the same class, implementing it at the same time as a raise of the level cap or even by just removing the Exile faction from the game. But it seems that it will be implemented in such a way that it will [Removed for Content] off a large part of the player base. Now this may be gratifying to all the people sore from getting rolled by Exiles in pvp all the time, but I don't appreciate being screwed over by the same people that screwed me over by creating Exile faction in the first place and making it the only logical choice for raiding.</p><p>So please SOE, implement a game change in such a manner that it is customer friendly for once please!</p></blockquote><p>I second this.</p>

[Zacarus]

<cite>Phaust@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This change could have been implemented in a lot of ways that would have made the impact relatively small. Like making it so you don't lose all spells after betraying if you stay the same class, implementing it at the same time as a raise of the level cap or even by just removing the Exile faction from the game.</p></blockquote><p>Hold out hope exiles!  This change isn't live yet ... maybe they'll provide a window of opportunity to mend relations with your prior community, and allow you to keep your beloved masters.  Frankly, I doubt they will, but its not a foregone conclusion.</p><p>On a related note.  Why do people keep referring to a, "raise of the level cap?"  There *IS* no level cap change.  Pleae type, "the shadow odyssey" in google and read a little.  Here, I'll help...</p><p><a href="http://www.massively.com/2008/08/15/exploring-the-shadow-odyssey-with-eqii-senior-producer-bruce-fer/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.massively.com/2008/08/15...ucer-bruce-fer/</a></p><p>See, 80 is it.  Mythicals?  Get it?  Doesn't get better, and won't.  Don't despair there are 23 (or whatever) other slots to fill up with mythicals so they'll keep you busy.</p>

[Valdar]

<cite>Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Phaust@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This change could have been implemented in a lot of ways that would have made the impact relatively small. Like making it so you don't lose all spells after betraying if you stay the same class, implementing it at the same time as a raise of the level cap or even by just removing the Exile faction from the game.</p></blockquote><p>Hold out hope exiles!  This change isn't live yet ... maybe they'll provide a window of opportunity to mend relations with your prior community, and allow you to keep your beloved masters.  Frankly, I doubt they will, but its not a foregone conclusion.</p><p>On a related note.  Why do people keep referring to a, "raise of the level cap?"  There *IS* no level cap change.  Pleae type, "the shadow odyssey" in google and read a little.  Here, I'll help...</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.massively.com/2008/08/15/exploring-the-shadow-odyssey-with-eqii-senior-producer-bruce-fer/" target="_blank">http://www.massively.com/2008/08/15...ucer-bruce-fer/</a></p><p>See, 80 is it.  Mythicals?  Get it?  Doesn't get better, and won't.  Don't despair there are 23 (or whatever) other slots to fill up with mythicals so they'll keep you busy.</p></blockquote><p>You misunderstand, and there is no reason to be condescending.</p><p>The best time would have been to implement it at the same time as a raise in the level cap, so at RoK release or even at the next raise of the level cap. That way 95% of the masters people have would become obsolete anyway and the impact wouldn't be too big. Now, several months into the expansion and several 100's of plats later invested in a toon they implement this. Not exactly the best timing.</p><p>Not saying that a lot of people claiming they will quit over this will actually do so, but at the very least it makes it much more attractive to check out WAR instead of doing COA for the umptieth time to farm for masters yet again. Never mind those rare T6 masters that will be almost impossible to replace as PP isn't farmed that much anymore these days.</p>

[Earthshine]

<p>I read something about a neutral faction in a recent post which doesn't seem such a bad idea. The problem this upcoming change to city factions presents for those who are currently exiled is extremely unfair, especially if they raised a guild to level 80 by just raiding. That alone stands as a testament to their dedication as raiders, but more importantly in terms of business ethics their commitment to the game as long-term subscribers. I realize not everyone in exile is opposed to this, but many are and are disappointed if not completely P.O.</p><p>A third faction exclusive to PvP servers is in fact a great idea, gives the entire game that much more depth, and makes the option to exile for FFA PvP as well as cohesive raiding more appealing.</p>

[Magius789]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well I belong to a city so according to you I'm a stupid noob anyway. I love how you say you don't have any problem with the change but then all you do is complain about the change and throw insults at everybody. Like I said if dedication is the sole reason why faction guilds haven't succeeded then you have no problem. But you throwing a temper tantrum about how you will loose your masters and etc. when no one is forcing you to leave exile is just stupid. You exiled to raid easier and now that others don't have to do that you are throwing a tantrum because the devs are fixing the problems they've created. . . </p><p>So basically city guilds are failing because they lack the dedication to raid properly and giving them all classess is fine because it won't help that any anyways but you are saying have no problem with the change and have wasted everyones time by posting page after page of complaints about the new change? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> If you have no problem with it and you don't think city guilds are going to accomplish any more with these changes then why are you complaining so much and crying about loosing your masters when you don't have to leave exile anyway?</p></blockquote>You honestly make this too easy, alright, here goes, again...keep up.I do not have a problem with the cities having all classes, on the contrary, I believe it'll provide for more competition and better PvP fights. You're right, I do consider many (but not all) faction raiders to be undedicated. Why? Simple, when you look at what certain Guilds have achieved (Not including Exiles, we're on easymode after all), vs what others have not, and the reasons for it, it's easy to come to that conclusion. <b>You don't like that obviously, because it makes you look like what you are, a noob.</b>If a guild under restrictions is able to reach point A. and another guild under the same restrictions is unable to, you have to look at the reasons why. They have access to the same classes, gear, city items, everything. Yet one succeeds by an incredible margin, while the other accomplishes next to nothing. You can come up with all the fairy tale reasons and excuses you want, it's about dedication. Does that mean dedication to a video game? why...yes, it does. I'm sorry everything can't be handed to you at the click of a button. I'm sorry it takes people to form a raid. I'm sorry it takes time to learn an encounter. That is how the game is made, deal with it.Now, on to the other topic's that you seem to be completely ignorant of. First, The reasons for going exile now are crippled in comparison to the reasons for being in a city. Free for all PVP is the only reason. Now, That means that the people exiling will be doing it for the reasons of PvP, not raiding. If there are no raiders exiling, because the benefits no longer exceed or even equal the detriments, then you are unable to recruit. As you've pointed out so many times, you must be able to recruit in order to raid. Thus, This update will sever the lifeblood of any guild, it's power to recruit.Now, are we being forced to go back to the cities? No, but it's basically the same as the Dev's saying, "I'm not going to force you back to the cities, but i'm going to punch you in the face until you do go, and anybody that joins you will recieve the same treatment." Believe it or not, those are not the best conditions to recruit.That's why, exiles that plan to raid, and exiled to raid, will eventually be forced back into the cities. This is why I have posted on this thread and others. Exiles left the cities with an understanding of what they were losing, and what they were gaining. That origional agreement is no longer there. The Dev's gave birth to the beast that has become Exile Guilds, and it's their responsibility to deal with it as best as possible.You can not simply say, "Go through this door and i'll pinch you, but give you 5 dollars", then once through the door, stab them in the back, steal 10 dollars out of their wallet, and call it even. This is however, as of right now with current information, what the Dev's are attempting to do with this change.That is why myself and many exiles are upset. We do NOT care that you are getting all classes.</blockquote><p>Hard to look like a noob when I don't even raid . . .  This whole thread is about both cities getting access to all classess and if you have no problem with that then why are you complaining so much?  I know what you are saying but I find it ironic that you are now in the same situation the cities have been in for a long time.  You are upset because when city factions get access to both classess it is going to cut off the lifeblood of your guild being able to recruit in exile.  Well you already have a full and compitent raid guild and if you are all as dedicated as you say then I don't see any reason why anyone would leave to go to a city.  You have no problem raiding right now and the only new stuff being added is guild halls which in reality are just fluff and VERY expensive.  So even though they can get signets and PvP gear it doesn't matter because you don't need signets to raid successfully and the gear you get in the raids is better than the PvP gear.</p><p>So you are upset because after this change the only real reason to be in exile is to PvP, which exile was intended to be a much harder place than a city as stated by aerilk.  This change just makes exile what is was suppose to be to begin with.  Think about this for a second, you are upset because the dedicated raiders will want to be in the city to raid correct?  This is what is making you so angry.  Well how to you think the cities felt when ALL of their dedicated raiders left to go to exile.  Exile did to city raiding what you are saying this change will do the exile raiding but exile already has dedicated raiders so as long as none of them jump ship for no real reason then there is nothing to be worried about.  So thing change makes it so city guilds can raid easier and get good gear and be more competitive, which is what you want.  The city guilds that aren't dedicated won't get any farther in raiding which is what you said.  And your dedicated raid force and group of friends in exile shouldn't go back to the city therefore NOT leaving you the sole paladin in exile.  So what are you throwing such a tantrum for!</p>

[Niou]

Gimet, Magius, you're both either illiterate or simply didn't read my post. It explains clearly all of you're little questions. Instead, you're unable to see past you're own exile rage and limited point of views. Go Read my post and shut up. None of this even concerns you two. One of you openly admits to not having time to even play the game, while the other doesn't raid. It's a waste of time for me to try and explain the situation as it stands for exiles when you have clue about anything you're talking about.You Don't understand Raiding.You Don't understand Recruiting.You Don't understand the higher tiers of concept that are being discussed here. You're a waste of my time. For anybody else with a comment, direct them to the post I made before finishing off these two malcontent's.

[Niou]

<cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think it's time for exiled to just understand that exiled wasn't meant to be a third faction to begin with. SOE has finally done something to alleviate the anomaly. Exileds rised up in ranks of being the first to accomplish everything because it went from what was supposed to be a detriment to those that chose to go "hardmode" for pvp to "ezmode" for raiding because of the access to all classes.</p><p>To all of you exileds: you had your moment of glory and being the best because you were able to obtain the best. It is time for you to come to one of three conclusions. 1. Go to Freeport. 2. Go to Qeynos. 3. Stay exiled where you will remain truly exiled.</p><p>What you don't seem to understand is that with the upcomming change, you will STILL be able to function the same as you always have in exiled; only now, you will be able to have the minor perks of city signets, pvp gear, and city housing/guild halls (if you choose a faction). In which, as far as raiding was concerned, failed to compare to the perk you always had ... access to all classes. Now that factions will be allowed that major advantage, exileds will no longer be the only ones to have that advantage.</p><p>None of us in factions are saying that the ability to have all classes is going to automatically get us our mythicals and VP gear. But for those handful of guilds in factions that HAVE managed (despite the incredible odds) to break into VP, will have a much needed boost in being able to accomplish what only exiled could before.</p><p>The two biggest gains for city factions with this, will be templars for freeport and brigands for qeynos. Raiding MT groups on both sides will have more options for buffs that increase stats, buffs that increase hp, and added healing. DPS and utility for both sides will have much more to be able to choose from. For a long time, exileds had the cream of the crop to choose from (as far as selecting classes). Now factions will have that opportunity.</p><p>We don't pity you, exileds. You had it too good for too long.</p></blockquote><p>What you and everyone else don't seem to understand, is the impact of a huge problem trying to recruit for a exiled raiding guild this will cause in the future.</p><p>I understand this would take logic and reasoning but please don't strain yourself in doing so trying to comprehend this in its entirety.</p><p>I could care less of your pity its obvious the devs cant even comprehend this situation in its entirety so there's no way I could fathom you to be able to do so....</p><p>Sure nothing will really change at first, except for the fact that a % of exiles will leave exile to do the same exact thing in a city, and then from that point on it will be a constant struggle to recruit anyone to exile for the purpose of raiding.</p><p>If SOE isn't careful they will lose even more raiders as a result, its not a balanced change.</p><p>I understand it was not SOE intent of people on pvp servers to have to exile to raid but it's a result of the past 2 years of there doing. It's a slap in the face, a screw up on there part, not exile's. So now they choose to fix it all the while screwing over everyone who had the balls to do what it took to get things done.</p><p>So now you have a % of exiles who would rather quit than go back because of the hassle of gaining new spells and another % of exiles who want to go back for all the perks only city folks get. So I guess we call the update the "Operation Exile Home wrecker"</p></blockquote><p>Ya see, that is where you are wrong. I DO get it. I welcome the fact that exileds will have trouble recruiting. YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE A FACTION! There, I have said it again. <span style="color: #ff6600;"><b>I didn't say it was the exileds fault, but SONY did create the problem</b></span>, and now have finally made the attempt to rectify it. </p><p>For so long, most exileds would say they are exiled for more pvp choices. If that is true, then stay exiled for the pvp targets. You will surely be hardmode then if you can't recruit for raiding purposes. And for those that are the die hard and hard core raiders that they say they are, then they'll have no problems going to a city and either joining an existing guild (the few that will be welcomed in an already established factioned guild, that is) or reforming their own guild in a city.</p><p>You will have the same options for raiding, and MORE! You'll still be able to fight all classes, because now they'll be in both cities! So you won't have as many people in exiled so you can kill each other to get me off your recent anymore so you can take my infamy again in 1 minute instead of 30 minutes....boo-[Removed for Content]-hoo.</p><p>Lastly, I will say that as much as I have abhorred exileds in the past, I don't [Removed for Content] care if you can't recruit. As I stated previously, you exileds had it too good for too long. It's time for this much needed change.</p></blockquote><span class="postbody">This seems to be a topic that you are completely ignorant of. First, The reasons for going exile now are crippled in comparison to the reasons for being in a city. Free for all PVP is the only reason. Now, That means that the people exiling will be doing it for the reasons of PvP, not raiding. If there are no raiders exiling, because the benefits no longer exceed or even equal the detriments, then you are unable to recruit. As you've pointed out so many times, you must be able to recruit in order to raid. Thus, This update will sever the lifeblood of any guild, it's power to recruit.Now, are we being forced to go back to the cities? No, but it's basically the same as the Dev's saying, "I'm not going to force you back to the cities, but i'm going to punch you in the face until you do go, and anybody that joins you will recieve the same treatment." Believe it or not, those are not the best conditions to recruit.That's why, exiles that plan to raid, and exiled to raid, will eventually be forced back into the cities. This is why I have posted on this thread and others. Exiles left the cities with an understanding of what they were losing, and what they were gaining. That origional agreement is no longer there. The Dev's gave birth to the beast that has become Exile Guilds, and it's their responsibility to deal with it as best as possible.You can not simply say, "Go through this door and i'll pinch you, but give you 5 dollars", then once through the door, stab them in the back, steal 10 dollars out of their wallet, and call it even. This is however, as of right now with current information, what the Dev's are attempting to do with this change.Grow up, see past you're exile rage, and realize that something must be done about exiles besides screwing them over. You may not realize it, but their a huge part of you're player base, it'd be much better to have them back in the cities, then quitting. Unless you just love running around with nobody to fight.As for you're whole theory of punishing exiles, why? You openly admit it was SoE's mistake, yet you want the players that decided to use what was avaliable to them in a game to be punished? You had the same exact options, some decided to sacrafice their pvp gear, cities, houses and more to raid more efficently; and now that SoE decides to change that, they need to be punished?Again, Grow up and stop being so short sided.</span>

[Gimet]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gimet, Magius, you're both either illiterate or simply didn't read my post. It explains clearly all of you're little questions. Instead, you're unable to see past you're own exile rage and limited point of views. Go Read my post and shut up. None of this even concerns you two. One of you openly admits to not having time to even play the game, while the other doesn't raid. It's a waste of time for me to try and explain the situation as it stands for exiles when you have clue about anything you're talking about.You Don't understand Raiding.You Don't understand Recruiting.You Don't understand the higher tiers of concept that are being discussed here. You're a waste of my time. For anybody else with a comment, direct them to the post I made before finishing off these two malcontent's.</blockquote><p>edited out....soooo not worth it. I'll carry on a conversation with you once you stop the needless insulting at the beginning of each of your arguments.</p>

[Vincente]

<cite>nastymatt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have raided in faction and now currently in exile. Why did I/we go exile? Pvp? All classes? Yes but that was not the main reason. The MAIN reason was we needed 24 very good players who were prepared to put the hours and hours and hours of dedication in to succeed. We joined another guild who had the same issue as us, namely 12-14 very good players and then the rest of the raid was "adequate". We ended up with a good raid force that was prepared to try.</p><p>I see a lot of exile hate and smugness at how you think you have "won" or "shown the exiles". Quite clearly these people have not put in the required effort to get to VP or clear it. If you are not raiding 4-6 days a week at 4-5 hours at a time having all classes is not going to get you to VP. Sorry to say! You are deluding yourself if you think getting a couple of templars in your raid is going to suddendly get you to VP. I predict no new guilds will make VP by Christmas even with all classes. The same 3 faction guilds (on Naggy) will just find it easier in VP. </p><p>Most raid mobs are keeping the MT alive and having the strats. So who will gain out of this? Freeport. There are only 2 decent dps fights in VP so Q's are not going to benefit. Pvp? Again... it will be Freeps who benefit - getting templars!! If I was a Q I'd be voting no, if I was a freep - I'd be voting yes. As an exile? Bah.. I don't care really. If we go to a faction we'll go as a whole guild and take all our mythicals and VP set gear and get the Pvp stuff, so getting tougher.  No doubt we'll get applications from these haters who will want mythicals but will put their pride aside to get it off our exile accomplishments.</p><p>Class balance is not the issue in EQ2, it's the ridiculous pvp rule set and the players who have ruined the game with chokers/unraided pvp/god spelling/double god spelling/perma immunity/dock camping/rez zerging/back up groups just off radar/etc </p><p>So, if your guild is faction based, has 24 very good players,  raiding 6 times a week at 4 hours at a time - you will benefit from this change,  but they are already in VP.</p><p>The rest? Sorry, it will make very little difference to you.</p></blockquote><p>Because getting Brigands, Assassins, Coercers, Bruisers are an Enormous downfall for any PvP group, I bet every freep pvp group in the world will drop all these [Removed for Content] classes to have a Templar in the group! ... Sorry, I left my sarcasm tag on. In my opinion, you may be right, but I know for a fact having all classes available will aid even the more casual raiding guilds, they may not be doing VP a week after the release but I'm sure there will be an improvement in what they're capable of. You'd have to have your head extremely far up your own bum (most likely so far your choking on your own trachea) to say that having all the classes benifits you very little and that it's all pure "skillz". </p><p>As to the "Exile hate" we've had to compete with them with weaker gear and half the classes for a couple years now. Yeah, I think I'll hate them a bit, thats like having somone beat you silly for 2 years, gloating about it, and then as soon as you can stand up to them, they want to be your best bud. Sure, they can come back to the city, I'm sure alot will, but I don't belive that SoE should let them move once and keep their skills. What kind of BS is that? I doubt that SoE would do this but really now? Why on earth would SoE throw you a freebie? What on earth have you done that would warrant such a reward? I betrayed my Fury to Warden to help my guild, I payed for my spells all over again out of my own pocket. Does that mean I should shake SoE down for a refund on the plat I spent?</p><p>Personally I don't think even after this change that Exile should get the same perks as cities, I like the concept of Exile, an open pvp faction, but thats kind of the point, you gave up the city perks to kill anyone, anywere, and to be able to get alot of fabled gear alot sooner and with less trouble than alot of the city based guilds. That was your perk. If they added a full time 3rd faction  with open pvp and all the amenities of the city factions I'd be down for that, but I still think it should require the same Ol' betrayal quest that the other cities require.</p><p>That's just my "exile hater" opinion. ... I'm turning my sarcasm tag back on. >.>  </p><p>Also, I know I directly quoted nastymatt, I intended to only respond to his statement, but like halfway through I got de-railed and decided to talk about things others had spoken of in this thread, so not all of my comments were directed at him.</p>

[Thinwizzy]

The way I see it, it is in everyone's best interest to give cities all classes, and to give exiles access to pvp gear/guild halls.  My reasoning for this is: three way pvp is fun.  Sure, city vs city pvp is fun.  Much more fun than playing on a server without pvp.  However, if you throw in the third side, there is that much more chaos and unpredictability to every fight.When pvp servers first opened up, there where just the two sides.  I don't think the devs had any plan at that point to turn it into a three way battle.  Then with the creation of exile and Haven, the game evolved.  We can look at this as an opportunity to change with the game, to make the game broader and more exciting than it was; or we can try to 'fix' the situation.Maj'Dul was a potentially great part of the game that was never really capitalized on.  Let the exiles have it.  Leave the expensive broker fees and the lack of city signets, put guildhalls there that the cities can also use, and let exiles have pvp gear at double the price.  This will leave exiles reliant on their guild members, without tipping the balance of gear to one side or the other.  After all, balancing out the cities with the exiles is what brought this change.  This will also revive a little used zone and create some potentially very fun pvp situations.I don't see why people would be against exiles after the cities get all classes.  Everyone that leaves exile and comes to your faction, is one less pvp target.  Everyone that gets frustrated and quits is one less pvp target.  The biggest complaint I have seen about exiles to this date is they have the class/gear advantage.  After this update, only those that work harder for the gear have the gear advantage.  Sure, exiles will start with more raid gear still, but that will even out.Instead of thinking about how something could possibly affect yourself in the worst way, try thinking about how it could possibly make the game even better.

[Shadow_Viper]

<p>Giving Exileds guild halls would be an extremely bad idea, would defeat the entire point of the faction. Only city based guilds should have access to guild halls.</p><p>If a person wants to have all the benefits of living in one of the cities, then they should betray back.</p>

[Bhugg]

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Niou is essentially right when he comments on dedication.   Opus is the only factioned guild raiding on Venekor.  We are 1 mob behind Freeport Alliance.  We SHOULD be ahead of FP alliance.  I would bet we have more bards, coercers, and defilers on our roster than the entire alliance combined.  We have been plagued by people switching jobs, work schedules changing, RL issues such as marriages (who puts family ahead of VP really? - Ok Chaffy's not gonna heal me anymore).   We have alot of people that want to be dedicated raiders and that want to learn but consistently the same 2/3 of the raid force logs in on time and ready to go and has to wait on the other 1/3 dealing with RL issues (I think this was the main reason GW decided to exile - and I can understand why they did).  As a family oriented guild this is a decision we have made AS A GUILD to accept these road blocks and plow ahead so we can complete the content as a guild.  As a result we are still on Veneril and OK - these 2 mobs will die to us even without all classes, especially Veneril, seems like an easier for for Opus  (we did quite well 3 grouping him becuase we lost our east coasters late one night) - our motto is when in doubt do it ahss backwards cause it alwas dies to us that way - witness Meldrath dying to us well before Doomcoil.  Having all classes does not mean these mobs are gonna bend over for us but we hope it will inject a renewed dedication amongst those we need to seek to join our ranks (yes Q are welcome) and fill a 4th raid night to help with progression and maybe a 5th raid night to focus on hate only.   </p><p>I lived in exile for quite some time on my ranger after I left GW way back when.  People who live in exile demonstrate the dedication needed by a raid force to succeed.  That is the main reason the exiles guilds have succeeded in raiding t8.  Also, "having a brigand and a templar in your raid force is a huge advantage to raiding" to quote one of the devs at fan faire in answer to my question regarding this topic.  You add those 2 mian classes with a dedicated raid force and you are going to move forward.  Purity, on Nagafen, is moving forward due to dedication.   As soon as we can find those few people we need (of the appropriate class) that will log on ready to go I expect us to move forward faster.  I expect having a templar in my group will help alot bt it will not be a magic bullet.  I need DEDICATION more than I need a templar but having a templar and dedication will be even better and put us on even footing with the exiles for raiding who are now an entire tier ahead of the factioned cities at the dawn of a new x-pac.  I would expect exile not to come back to cities but to beat the new x-pac first so they can claim first kills.  While guild halls are going to be nice, even sweet, having a well oiled machine ready to kill would be better IMO.  Hell, I just moved outta my slum in big bend to gorwyn so I could be closer to KP.  I don't need nice digs, just 23-30 other people on and read to raid on time and ready to learn as needed.</p></blockquote><p>Good post Vlah, couldn't have put it better myself.</p><p>Bhugg</p>

[Shadow_Viper]

<p>Since cities will now be getting all classes, it is time to change the exiled faction "back" to what it was intended to be. A rest stop between betraying from one alignment to the other. </p><p>Everything aside from banker and mender should be removed from Haven, no crafting stations, broker, guild register, merchants, etc.</p><p>Especially no guild halls or PVP gear merchants.</p>

[Warr]

Why? so you can loose a large chunk of PvP targets on a PvP server? That sounds smart!

[Sorffats]

<cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The way I see it, it is in everyone's best interest to give cities all classes, and to give exiles access to pvp gear/guild halls.  My reasoning for this is: three way pvp is fun.  Sure, city vs city pvp is fun.  Much more fun than playing on a server without pvp.  However, if you throw in the third side, there is that much more chaos and unpredictability to every fight.When pvp servers first opened up, there where just the two sides.  I don't think the devs had any plan at that point to turn it into a three way battle.  Then with the creation of exile and Haven, the game evolved.  We can look at this as an opportunity to change with the game, to make the game broader and more exciting than it was; or we can try to 'fix' the situation.Maj'Dul was a potentially great part of the game that was never really capitalized on.  Let the exiles have it.  Leave the expensive broker fees and the lack of city signets, put guildhalls there that the cities can also use, and let exiles have pvp gear at double the price.  This will leave exiles reliant on their guild members, without tipping the balance of gear to one side or the other.  After all, balancing out the cities with the exiles is what brought this change.  This will also revive a little used zone and create some potentially very fun pvp situations.I don't see why people would be against exiles after the cities get all classes.  Everyone that leaves exile and comes to your faction, is one less pvp target.  Everyone that gets frustrated and quits is one less pvp target.  The biggest complaint I have seen about exiles to this date is they have the class/gear advantage.  After this update, only those that work harder for the gear have the gear advantage.  Sure, exiles will start with more raid gear still, but that will even out.Instead of thinking about how something could possibly affect yourself in the worst way, try thinking about how it could possibly make the game even better.</blockquote><p>This will make less pvp targets?  You're kidding right?   Everyone sees the little servewide message everytime an exiled gets a mythical.  I'd say probably 75% of those we see getting mythicals is followed by a flooding in the 70-79 and 80 chat with "who the hell is that?".    Not only that, but 90% of my pvp fights are with Qeynos anyway.  So the only pvp targets I will lose will be those very few that I do encounter that might happen to come back to FP.  I won't be suffering to find any less pvp targets than I already do.</p><p>The majority of the exiled faction has been so arrogant through all of t7 and t8 simply because they had the classes to raid witha nd could complete the content before the next expansion came out.   That is how the raid content was designed, because it was designed with PVE servers in mind.   The reason so many of us have this "exiled hate" is because of that arrogance that many exileds themselves emit.</p><p>Let the exileds have Maj'Dul?  What will happen to my Call of Ro?  I'm not sure as to the extent you want exiled to be "given" Maj'Dul.  You got haven, that is your home.  Deal with it, or go back to a city.   You want guild halls?  That takes a dedication to A CITY.  The definition of exiled is basically, "to be removed".  In that removal, you don't get those amenities.  You can, however, seek redemption from the cities and make an effort to become a citizen once again.</p>

[Elanjar]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well I belong to a city so according to you I'm a stupid noob anyway. I love how you say you don't have any problem with the change but then all you do is complain about the change and throw insults at everybody. Like I said if dedication is the sole reason why faction guilds haven't succeeded then you have no problem. But you throwing a temper tantrum about how you will loose your masters and etc. when no one is forcing you to leave exile is just stupid. You exiled to raid easier and now that others don't have to do that you are throwing a tantrum because the devs are fixing the problems they've created. . . </p><p>So basically city guilds are failing because they lack the dedication to raid properly and giving them all classess is fine because it won't help that any anyways but you are saying have no problem with the change and have wasted everyones time by posting page after page of complaints about the new change? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> If you have no problem with it and you don't think city guilds are going to accomplish any more with these changes then why are you complaining so much and crying about loosing your masters when you don't have to leave exile anyway?</p></blockquote>You honestly make this too easy, alright, here goes, again...keep up.I do not have a problem with the cities having all classes, on the contrary, I believe it'll provide for more competition and better PvP fights. You're right, I do consider many (but not all) faction raiders to be undedicated. Why? Simple, when you look at what certain Guilds have achieved (Not including Exiles, we're on easymode after all), vs what others have not, and the reasons for it, it's easy to come to that conclusion. You don't like that obviously, because it makes you look like what you are, a noob.If a guild under restrictions is able to reach point A. and another guild under the same restrictions is unable to, you have to look at the reasons why. They have access to the same classes, gear, city items, everything. Yet one succeeds by an incredible margin, while the other accomplishes next to nothing. You can come up with all the fairy tale reasons and excuses you want, it's about dedication. Does that mean dedication to a video game? why...yes, it does. I'm sorry everything can't be handed to you at the click of a button. I'm sorry it takes people to form a raid. I'm sorry it takes time to learn an encounter. That is how the game is made, deal with it.Now, on to the other topic's that you seem to be completely ignorant of. First, The reasons for going exile now are crippled in comparison to the reasons for being in a city. Free for all PVP is the only reason. Now, That means that the people exiling will be doing it for the reasons of PvP, not raiding. If there are no raiders exiling, because the benefits no longer exceed or even equal the detriments, then you are unable to recruit. As you've pointed out so many times, you must be able to recruit in order to raid. Thus, This update will sever the lifeblood of any guild, it's power to recruit.Now, are we being forced to go back to the cities? No, but it's basically the same as the Dev's saying, "I'm not going to force you back to the cities, but i'm going to punch you in the face until you do go, and anybody that joins you will recieve the same treatment." Believe it or not, those are not the best conditions to recruit.That's why, exiles that plan to raid, and exiled to raid, will eventually be forced back into the cities. This is why I have posted on this thread and others. Exiles left the cities with an understanding of what they were losing, and what they were gaining. That origional agreement is no longer there. The Dev's gave birth to the beast that has become Exile Guilds, and it's their responsibility to deal with it as best as possible.You can not simply say, "Go through this door and i'll pinch you, but give you 5 dollars", then once through the door, stab them in the back, steal 10 dollars out of their wallet, and call it even. This is however, as of right now with current information, what the Dev's are attempting to do with this change.That is why myself and many exiles are upset. We do NOT care that you are getting all classes.</blockquote>Going Exile to raid never should have been an option in the first place. Its not the cities that were broken. Its the exiled faction. Exiles never should have been aloud to guild. You dont need a guild to PvP vs anyone.

[Sorffats]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think it's time for exiled to just understand that exiled wasn't meant to be a third faction to begin with. SOE has finally done something to alleviate the anomaly. Exileds rised up in ranks of being the first to accomplish everything because it went from what was supposed to be a detriment to those that chose to go "hardmode" for pvp to "ezmode" for raiding because of the access to all classes.</p><p>To all of you exileds: you had your moment of glory and being the best because you were able to obtain the best. It is time for you to come to one of three conclusions. 1. Go to Freeport. 2. Go to Qeynos. 3. Stay exiled where you will remain truly exiled.</p><p>What you don't seem to understand is that with the upcomming change, you will STILL be able to function the same as you always have in exiled; only now, you will be able to have the minor perks of city signets, pvp gear, and city housing/guild halls (if you choose a faction). In which, as far as raiding was concerned, failed to compare to the perk you always had ... access to all classes. Now that factions will be allowed that major advantage, exileds will no longer be the only ones to have that advantage.</p><p>None of us in factions are saying that the ability to have all classes is going to automatically get us our mythicals and VP gear. But for those handful of guilds in factions that HAVE managed (despite the incredible odds) to break into VP, will have a much needed boost in being able to accomplish what only exiled could before.</p><p>The two biggest gains for city factions with this, will be templars for freeport and brigands for qeynos. Raiding MT groups on both sides will have more options for buffs that increase stats, buffs that increase hp, and added healing. DPS and utility for both sides will have much more to be able to choose from. For a long time, exileds had the cream of the crop to choose from (as far as selecting classes). Now factions will have that opportunity.</p><p>We don't pity you, exileds. You had it too good for too long.</p></blockquote><p>What you and everyone else don't seem to understand, is the impact of a huge problem trying to recruit for a exiled raiding guild this will cause in the future.</p><p>I understand this would take logic and reasoning but please don't strain yourself in doing so trying to comprehend this in its entirety.</p><p>I could care less of your pity its obvious the devs cant even comprehend this situation in its entirety so there's no way I could fathom you to be able to do so....</p><p>Sure nothing will really change at first, except for the fact that a % of exiles will leave exile to do the same exact thing in a city, and then from that point on it will be a constant struggle to recruit anyone to exile for the purpose of raiding.</p><p>If SOE isn't careful they will lose even more raiders as a result, its not a balanced change.</p><p>I understand it was not SOE intent of people on pvp servers to have to exile to raid but it's a result of the past 2 years of there doing. It's a slap in the face, a screw up on there part, not exile's. So now they choose to fix it all the while screwing over everyone who had the balls to do what it took to get things done.</p><p>So now you have a % of exiles who would rather quit than go back because of the hassle of gaining new spells and another % of exiles who want to go back for all the perks only city folks get. So I guess we call the update the "Operation Exile Home wrecker"</p></blockquote><p>Ya see, that is where you are wrong. I DO get it. I welcome the fact that exileds will have trouble recruiting. YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE A FACTION! There, I have said it again. <span style="color: #ff6600;"><b>I didn't say it was the exileds fault, but SONY did create the problem</b></span>, and now have finally made the attempt to rectify it. </p><p>For so long, most exileds would say they are exiled for more pvp choices. If that is true, then stay exiled for the pvp targets. You will surely be hardmode then if you can't recruit for raiding purposes. And for those that are the die hard and hard core raiders that they say they are, then they'll have no problems going to a city and either joining an existing guild (the few that will be welcomed in an already established factioned guild, that is) or reforming their own guild in a city.</p><p>You will have the same options for raiding, and MORE! You'll still be able to fight all classes, because now they'll be in both cities! So you won't have as many people in exiled so you can kill each other to get me off your recent anymore so you can take my infamy again in 1 minute instead of 30 minutes....boo-[Removed for Content]-hoo.</p><p>Lastly, I will say that as much as I have abhorred exileds in the past, I don't [Removed for Content] care if you can't recruit. As I stated previously, you exileds had it too good for too long. It's time for this much needed change.</p></blockquote><span class="postbody">This seems to be a topic that you are completely ignorant of. First, The reasons for going exile now are crippled in comparison to the reasons for being in a city. Free for all PVP is the only reason. Now, That means that the people exiling will be doing it for the reasons of PvP, not raiding. If there are no raiders exiling, because the benefits no longer exceed or even equal the detriments, then you are unable to recruit. As you've pointed out so many times, you must be able to recruit in order to raid. Thus, This update will sever the lifeblood of any guild, it's power to recruit.Now, are we being forced to go back to the cities? No, but it's basically the same as the Dev's saying, "I'm not going to force you back to the cities, but i'm going to punch you in the face until you do go, and anybody that joins you will recieve the same treatment." Believe it or not, those are not the best conditions to recruit.That's why, exiles that plan to raid, and exiled to raid, will eventually be forced back into the cities. This is why I have posted on this thread and others. Exiles left the cities with an understanding of what they were losing, and what they were gaining. That origional agreement is no longer there. The Dev's gave birth to the beast that has become Exile Guilds, and it's their responsibility to deal with it as best as possible.You can not simply say, "Go through this door and i'll pinch you, but give you 5 dollars", then once through the door, stab them in the back, steal 10 dollars out of their wallet, and call it even. This is however, as of right now with current information, what the Dev's are attempting to do with this change.Grow up, see past you're exile rage, and realize that something must be done about exiles besides screwing them over. You may not realize it, but their a huge part of you're player base, it'd be much better to have them back in the cities, then quitting. Unless you just love running around with nobody to fight.As for you're whole theory of punishing exiles, why? You openly admit it was SoE's mistake, yet you want the players that decided to use what was avaliable to them in a game to be punished? You had the same exact options, some decided to sacrafice their pvp gear, cities, houses and more to raid more efficently; and now that SoE decides to change that, they need to be punished?Again, Grow up and stop being so short sided.</span></blockquote><p>Lol, I am not ignorant of anything.  I have grasped from the past of how arrogant most exileds are with the things they were able to do with all classes and exceed where city factions couldn't.   And I grasp how, with this new change of all classes given to cities, exileds will no longer be the only ones able to complete the content.   I completely understand how exileds might be a bit upset that they are losing the monopoly of their "faction".  Currently, city factions can't compete because we are crippled by not having access to all of the classes.  I can very well see how exileds might fear this, because once cities have access to all classes as well as all the amenities that a city offers, exileds will lose their little advantage.</p><p>Exileds will no longer be the only ones that can obtain mythicals and VP gear.   I know that there are a couple of factioned guilds currently in VP (my guild is one of them), but those of us that got there, got there enduring very much more difficulty than any exiled guild has.   Our options for classes were limited.   Some encounters we defeated we know could have been easier and taken us less time to conquer with a class(es) that we didn't have access to.  I'm sure qeynos would have LOVED to have had brigand dispatch for significant turning point mobs such as doomcoil, overking, and venril.   I know that we would have LOVED to have had templar sanctuary for the same.   Q and FP alike wouldn't have minded having two seperate types of summoners for hearts and shards for power gain.  And the list can go on and on.  Some classes that seem to not matter, could very well have been that little bit extra that we in cities could have needed.   </p><p>I fail to understand you're statement that you are being "punched in the face".  You aren't losing anything.  You aren't gaining anything, but the exiled faction isn't changing at all.   So you say, "we will lose players".   Well, that may be the case; but that isn't our fault in the cities either.   Exileds took something and used it for something it wasn't intended to be used for.   Not your fault, I understand that.   If you don't want to be back in a city, don't go; but don't complain about the consequences of that decision.</p>

[Niou]

<cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think it's time for exiled to just understand that exiled wasn't meant to be a third faction to begin with. SOE has finally done something to alleviate the anomaly. Exileds rised up in ranks of being the first to accomplish everything because it went from what was supposed to be a detriment to those that chose to go "hardmode" for pvp to "ezmode" for raiding because of the access to all classes.</p><p>To all of you exileds: you had your moment of glory and being the best because you were able to obtain the best. It is time for you to come to one of three conclusions. 1. Go to Freeport. 2. Go to Qeynos. 3. Stay exiled where you will remain truly exiled.</p><p>What you don't seem to understand is that with the upcomming change, you will STILL be able to function the same as you always have in exiled; only now, you will be able to have the minor perks of city signets, pvp gear, and city housing/guild halls (if you choose a faction). In which, as far as raiding was concerned, failed to compare to the perk you always had ... access to all classes. Now that factions will be allowed that major advantage, exileds will no longer be the only ones to have that advantage.</p><p>None of us in factions are saying that the ability to have all classes is going to automatically get us our mythicals and VP gear. But for those handful of guilds in factions that HAVE managed (despite the incredible odds) to break into VP, will have a much needed boost in being able to accomplish what only exiled could before.</p><p>The two biggest gains for city factions with this, will be templars for freeport and brigands for qeynos. Raiding MT groups on both sides will have more options for buffs that increase stats, buffs that increase hp, and added healing. DPS and utility for both sides will have much more to be able to choose from. For a long time, exileds had the cream of the crop to choose from (as far as selecting classes). Now factions will have that opportunity.</p><p>We don't pity you, exileds. You had it too good for too long.</p></blockquote><p>What you and everyone else don't seem to understand, is the impact of a huge problem trying to recruit for a exiled raiding guild this will cause in the future.</p><p>I understand this would take logic and reasoning but please don't strain yourself in doing so trying to comprehend this in its entirety.</p><p>I could care less of your pity its obvious the devs cant even comprehend this situation in its entirety so there's no way I could fathom you to be able to do so....</p><p>Sure nothing will really change at first, except for the fact that a % of exiles will leave exile to do the same exact thing in a city, and then from that point on it will be a constant struggle to recruit anyone to exile for the purpose of raiding.</p><p>If SOE isn't careful they will lose even more raiders as a result, its not a balanced change.</p><p>I understand it was not SOE intent of people on pvp servers to have to exile to raid but it's a result of the past 2 years of there doing. It's a slap in the face, a screw up on there part, not exile's. So now they choose to fix it all the while screwing over everyone who had the balls to do what it took to get things done.</p><p>So now you have a % of exiles who would rather quit than go back because of the hassle of gaining new spells and another % of exiles who want to go back for all the perks only city folks get. So I guess we call the update the "Operation Exile Home wrecker"</p></blockquote><p>Ya see, that is where you are wrong. I DO get it. I welcome the fact that exileds will have trouble recruiting. YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE A FACTION! There, I have said it again. <span style="color: #ff6600;"><b>I didn't say it was the exileds fault, but SONY did create the problem</b></span>, and now have finally made the attempt to rectify it. </p><p>For so long, most exileds would say they are exiled for more pvp choices. If that is true, then stay exiled for the pvp targets. You will surely be hardmode then if you can't recruit for raiding purposes. And for those that are the die hard and hard core raiders that they say they are, then they'll have no problems going to a city and either joining an existing guild (the few that will be welcomed in an already established factioned guild, that is) or reforming their own guild in a city.</p><p>You will have the same options for raiding, and MORE! You'll still be able to fight all classes, because now they'll be in both cities! So you won't have as many people in exiled so you can kill each other to get me off your recent anymore so you can take my infamy again in 1 minute instead of 30 minutes....boo-[Removed for Content]-hoo.</p><p>Lastly, I will say that as much as I have abhorred exileds in the past, I don't [Removed for Content] care if you can't recruit. As I stated previously, you exileds had it too good for too long. It's time for this much needed change.</p></blockquote><span class="postbody">This seems to be a topic that you are completely ignorant of. First, The reasons for going exile now are crippled in comparison to the reasons for being in a city. Free for all PVP is the only reason. Now, That means that the people exiling will be doing it for the reasons of PvP, not raiding. If there are no raiders exiling, because the benefits no longer exceed or even equal the detriments, then you are unable to recruit. As you've pointed out so many times, you must be able to recruit in order to raid. Thus, This update will sever the lifeblood of any guild, it's power to recruit.Now, are we being forced to go back to the cities? No, but it's basically the same as the Dev's saying, "I'm not going to force you back to the cities, but i'm going to punch you in the face until you do go, and anybody that joins you will recieve the same treatment." Believe it or not, those are not the best conditions to recruit.That's why, exiles that plan to raid, and exiled to raid, will eventually be forced back into the cities. This is why I have posted on this thread and others. Exiles left the cities with an understanding of what they were losing, and what they were gaining. That origional agreement is no longer there. The Dev's gave birth to the beast that has become Exile Guilds, and it's their responsibility to deal with it as best as possible.You can not simply say, "Go through this door and i'll pinch you, but give you 5 dollars", then once through the door, stab them in the back, steal 10 dollars out of their wallet, and call it even. This is however, as of right now with current information, what the Dev's are attempting to do with this change.Grow up, see past you're exile rage, and realize that something must be done about exiles besides screwing them over. You may not realize it, but their a huge part of you're player base, it'd be much better to have them back in the cities, then quitting. Unless you just love running around with nobody to fight.As for you're whole theory of punishing exiles, why? You openly admit it was SoE's mistake, yet you want the players that decided to use what was avaliable to them in a game to be punished? You had the same exact options, some decided to sacrafice their pvp gear, cities, houses and more to raid more efficently; and now that SoE decides to change that, they need to be punished?Again, Grow up and stop being so short sided.</span></blockquote><p>Lol, I am not ignorant of anything. I have grasped from the past of how arrogant most exileds are with the things they were able to do with all classes and exceed where city factions couldn't. And I grasp how, with this new change of all classes given to cities, exileds will no longer be the only ones able to complete the content. I completely understand how exileds might be a bit upset that they are losing the monopoly of their "faction". Currently, city factions can't compete because we are crippled by not having access to all of the classes. I can very well see how exileds might fear this, because once cities have access to all classes as well as all the amenities that a city offers, exileds will lose their little advantage.</p><p>Exileds will no longer be the only ones that can obtain mythicals and VP gear. I know that there are a couple of factioned guilds currently in VP (my guild is one of them), but those of us that got there, got there enduring very much more difficulty than any exiled guild has. Our options for classes were limited. Some encounters we defeated we know could have been easier and taken us less time to conquer with a class(es) that we didn't have access to. I'm sure qeynos would have LOVED to have had brigand dispatch for significant turning point mobs such as doomcoil, overking, and venril. I know that we would have LOVED to have had templar sanctuary for the same. Q and FP alike wouldn't have minded having two seperate types of summoners for hearts and shards for power gain. And the list can go on and on. Some classes that seem to not matter, could very well have been that little bit extra that we in cities could have needed. </p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><b>I fail to understand you're statement that you are being "punched in the face". You aren't losing anything.</b></span> You aren't gaining anything, but the exiled faction isn't changing at all. So you say, "we will lose players". Well, that may be the case; but that isn't our fault in the cities either. Exileds took something and used it for something it wasn't intended to be used for. Not your fault, I understand that. If you don't want to be back in a city, don't go; but don't complain about the consequences of that decision.</p></blockquote>Are you just...randomly typing out idiotic thoughts without actually reading the posts? For one, This has nothing to do with the arrogance of exiles, nor is it about what factions guilds could and could not accomplish. This is about the fact that exiles have not done anything wrong. They took sacrafices to gain all classes for raiding purposes, they did this with the understanding that that was how the Dev's wanted the situation to be. It's not an oversight, the dev's just didnt "forget" that if someone from freeport exiled, and someone from qeynos exiled, they'd end up together. The dev's have already said, they knew what was going on, it was simply the advancement of raid gear and mythicals tipped the scales in favor of exiles when dealing with raid content.As you have pointed out, this is NOT our fault. We used what the game gave us, we sacraficed what the cities chose to keep instead of gaining all classes. Now, all classes are being given to the cities, thats fine and it was a decision that was a long time coming; also how it should have been from the start. However, The Dev's created this problem and many players have gone exile to form guilds, these players need not be punished because the Dev's decided to rethink how the game mechanics would work on PvP servers.For the last time, try and actually use you're brain. Exile guilds that are in exile to raid, will no longer be able to recruit, therefore, this change is commiting exile guilds to a slow death. Any active raid guild must be able to recruit in order to keep going, RL comes into effect and players drop out of guilds all the time. Those that exile from this point forward will be doing so for Free for All PvP, NOT to Raid.Incase you're incapable of even understanding that much, i'll make it even more simple for you.People + Guild = RaidNo People + Guild = No Raid.= WE CAN NOT SIMPLY STAY EXILE. Exiles knew what they were giving up and gaining by exiling, those factors and the terms of exile are no longer the same. The Dev's created this problem by allowing guilds to be formed in exile. Now that they've decided to rethink their decision over half a year later, exiles should not pay the price for their change of heart.

[Kiara]

Settle down a little please folks.* hands out cookies *

[zorbdan]

*A wall of text crits YOU for 10,000 hit points of damage*I tend to agree with what thinwizzy just said. I don't think exile should get everything the cities have but giving them halls in Maj Dul with lots of limitations isn't all that bad of an idea. NO pvp gear, NO status items etc .. I think totally destroying exile is a bad move. The class changes combined with no guild halls will totally destroy exiles. I would like to see some exiles return to the cities but returning the game to a 2 faction system is a step backwards IMO. 3 factions is more interesting but exile should have disadvantages, REAL disadvantages. The class change is a huge drastic change and I think there is an opportunity to really enhance PvP in this game with it. Exile really should become a 3rd neutral faction. Think about this ... What if exiles could grp with both sides? I am sure there could be a way to make it work. I think back to the days of pvp on sullon zek in EQ1 where you had 3 factions. Good, evil and neutral. This would involve some creative ideas on how to make it work but I know it's possible.Somewhere in the nebula of mentoring and immunity timer mechanics I know there is a solution to this whole exile 3 faction class issue.How about this .. exiles can grp with either side but when they do it becomes like mentoring and they cannot fight but if they drop grp they are free to do whatever. I know the mentoring mechanics are a bit borked currently but maybe this is the time to fix it all. Someone must be able to come up with a good solution?

[zorbdan]

An exile would con white at even level but have no red border. Once invited into a grp you can communicate with them and come to an understanding about the grouping situation. Fps and Qs would con the same way to exiles. Just tossing out ideas <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[-Arctura-]

(( Guild halls took a sizeable amount of time from SOGA studios to be up to desired spec for the game to match the art direction, cuztomization demands and other infinite details, and they look amazing!  Don't count on Guild Halls for exiles any time soon.  Y'all are free to daydream, but don't get your hopes up.

[liveja]

<p>I'd rather see Exiles get no guild halls whatsoever <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>It's bad enough they've been made into a viable faction, the devs don't need to make it worse by letting them have guild halls where they can easily escape from the rest of the world.</p>

[Meatmonster]

<cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Since cities will now be getting all classes, it is time to change the exiled faction "back" to what it was intended to be. A rest stop between betraying from one alignment to the other. </p><p>Everything aside from banker and mender should be removed from Haven, no crafting stations, broker, guild register, merchants, etc.</p><p>Especially no guild halls or PVP gear merchants.</p></blockquote>  Your conclusion of what exile was "intended" to be is pretty much completely irrelevent, and your plan really does nothing other than affect people negatively for no clear reason other than spite.  

[Valdar]

<p>It's all pretty simple really.</p><p>Exile unique selling point will be FFA PVP. Players however want to be competetive in PVP, so they need to gear up. In Exile you can't gear up through pvp, so you have to raid. Hardcore pvp'ers that find FFA PVP apealing won't like the fact that they are forced to raid to be able to compete in PVP. They will settle for fewer targets if that means they can gear up through pvp. So Exile is unsuited for the people it is supposed to attract.</p><p>As for raiders, they will go to the faction that is best suited for raiding. After the expansion that will definately be the Cities. So Exile is also unsuited for raiding.</p><p>So what exactly is the point of being Exiled?</p>

[Scews]

There is no point...  I think that's the concept that nobody is grasping here.  We left our cities knowing we'd have to sacrifice our pvp gear/signets/houses/mounts etc to be able to raid/FFA pvp.  What we didn't know is that in the near future SOE would turn around and give us a big emphatic NO.  Do you really think that so many people would've exiled if all classes were offered to both factions?  NOWAY.  Besides a select few, there will be no people that will ever want to go exile again therefore destroying all exiled guilds as we know it.  Is that our fault? No...  So why are we being punished by people we PAY monthy in order to "enjoy" this game?  Doesn't make sense.

[Izzypop]

What's the point of being in a city if they are crippled?  It's less than 2 weeks until TOS beta and Purity has yet to drop Nexona.  Give it up, SOE is not going to continue to hobble 2 factions so 1 faction can maintain a huge superiority.  Exile was meant to be hardmode, the most difficult of all 3 factions.  SOE finally came forward and said yes we know city factions are crippled, we are going to fix it, and all you guys can say is no don't fix them, shut up whiners, get back in the wheelchair you worthless [Removed for Content].  Try to find more constructive input.  Most city players would not be all the upset if you guys were to pick up signets now, or get tier 1 guildhalls.  There is not a single exile nerf that goes along the the changes.   You guys are acting like a bunch of brigands crying about a possible change to summoners to make them better in PvP.   Find ways to make your faction work.  Most city folk are not petty and vengeful to the point that we want to see you ruined, but none of us want to go back the chair.

[Sightless]

<cite>Undacova@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Exiles should not be allowed to return with Masters, because the cities will lose theirs changing to a new class.</p><p>Exiles should be allowed PvP gear, without being able to update writs by killing other exile.</p><p>Exiles should have access to city type Insignias.</p><p>Exiles should remain the third faction they said they were with all the penalties associated with switching sides, just like the OTHER Factions.</p><p>Exiles said for months they exiled for the Free For All PvP, and that was not taken away from them.</p></blockquote>I rarely agree with you but I will here.  To me this is the most logical choice to keep a kind of balance, at least on Venekor, that we have come to know.  Destroying exile as a thrid faction will likely cause a mass exodus to the cities that will tilt the balance of numbers towards Freeport or Qeynos.Instead of having mass complaints of having too few targets, or always being outnumbered, leave exile as a third faction with the same benefits as the cities.  Add guild halls to the list above and I see no downside for anyone in this change.  Cities are happy, exiles are happy and we can go on our merry way of complaining about other game mechanics <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</blockquote>You guys should get guild halls too. In my opinion when a faction, be it Freeport, Exile, or Qeynos gets insignias, they should be neutral, and useable by all three factions to by their own class PvP gear. I love having three factions, but I played DAoC for 3 years, and it has kind of grown on me to have three factions.

[Vincente]

Warren and Catfish have a very good point, I always invisioned Exile as what they're making it, a team for people who enjoy pvp to play, theres no rewards for it, no special perks, just the ability to pwn everyones face regardless of faction, thats the way I invisioned Exile, I'm sure alot of people will head back to the city's now that the grass is greener there, but I'm sure alot of exiles will stay exiles, and I encourage and applaud that, not only because thats more tokens in my bag but because that  shows that your love for corpse humping outshines the need for fancy faction rewards.

[Paikis]

<p>What I see on these forums every time i look is people full of envy. You all want the uber raid loots, but you weren't willing to exile to get them. Now that the devs have finally given in to your constant moaning (TBH I'd give it to you just so y'all would shut up) you still aren't satisfied? Not only do you have to be the best option for raiding, you want those people who had the balls to do what you wouldn't punished.</p><p>So now the only reason to exile is for the FFA pvp, but I gotta tell you, killing you and tea bagging the lot of you is really starting to look attractive. Maybe then you can complain that the crouch command is broken and isn't fair.</p>

[Sightless]

<p>All of that dedication, and skill didn't allow VA to get into VP while in the cities. If all that was needed was skill and dedication, you NEVER would have exiled. I don't understand how you guys can sit here and say that going exile didn't make it EASIER to reach VP, and clear it. Had you guys thought it was possible in the cities, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE WENT EXILE!!!</p><p>It is amazing how big your heads have grown, when you forget the problems you guys had in the cities.</p><p>Remember none of you could do what you've done in the cities, so YOU TO, COULDN'T DO IT!!!</p>

[Paikis]

<p>/yawn Seriously demron, your inability to read is growing tiresome.</p><p>I'll say it again for you, just once more.</p><p>Grey Wolves had a solid core of 10-15 people who showed up for every raid and actually wanted to kill the mobs. The rest was just fill-ins who were there to maybe get some loot, or weren't really that interested in seeing VP. Grey Wolves was VERY large, so their loot got spread around alot, especially with the current loot system. Then they exiled and grabbed a few like-minded raiders from freeport. Suddenly they're clearing things, because they have almost a full raid of people who show up to every raid. They have a full raid of people who WANT to see VP. They have a full raid of people who WANT to get their mythicals. And they only had 30 toons to spread the loot among. Gearing up 30 toons is alot easier than gearing up 100+ toons. Also gear makes a large difference in raiding.</p><p>I've never said that access to all classes didn't help. It does help, and I expect to see both the Freeport Alliance and whatever Darkor's raiding alliance calls itself in VP within a month or two of having all classes, if not before. They've just killed Venril, so the hard fight on the road to VP is out of the way. I honestly didn't expect them to kill Venril, so grats to them.</p><p>Thing is though, some people are just more motivated/dedicated. Look at Purity vs all of Qeynos on Venekor. Purity has killed Druushk, Q-Venekor has killed... the first 4 names in PR? What's the difference? You all have the same classes, you have access to the same gear. Why haven't you killed anything?</p>

[-Arctura-]

<cite>Ragefist wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you really think that so many people would've exiled if all classes were offered to both factions? NOWAY. Besides a select few, there will be no people that will ever want to go exile again therefore destroying all exiled guilds as we know it. Is that our fault? No... So why are we being punished by people we PAY monthy in order to "enjoy" this game? Doesn't make sense.</blockquote>((sorry... but...It's like running away from home because you want to have freedom and independence and do things your own way, instead of living under your parents roof where things are strict.Now you hear that your parents are changing their ways and buying all their kids (that still live under their roofs) Ferrari's and allowing them all kinds of nice things.....So y'all are saying '<i>Mom and Dad are punishing us by giving out Ferrari's to the other kids who still live under their roof' </i>=P Uh huh. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but nobody is stopping anyone from moving back to a city =P.The only punishing going on is the exiles punishing themselves with logic like that =PIf y'all loses your master abilities in the transfer to a city.... oh well. You guys should be accustomed to sacrificing nice things for the greater concept of progressing anyways... nothing new here really =P*ogre hugs to exiles*Just remember when you switch back to a city that atleast now you'll get pvp gear again and have a reason for pvping <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Sightless]

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>/yawn Seriously demron, your inability to read is growing tiresome.</p><p>I'll say it again for you, just once more.</p><p>Grey Wolves had a solid core of 10-15 people who showed up for every raid and actually wanted to kill the mobs. The rest was just fill-ins who were there to maybe get some loot, or weren't really that interested in seeing VP. Grey Wolves was VERY large, so their loot got spread around alot, especially with the current loot system. Then they exiled and grabbed a few like-minded raiders from freeport. Suddenly they're clearing things, because they have almost a full raid of people who show up to every raid. They have a full raid of people who WANT to see VP. They have a full raid of people who WANT to get their mythicals. And they only had 30 toons to spread the loot among. Gearing up 30 toons is alot easier than gearing up 100+ toons. Also gear makes a large difference in raiding.</p><p>I've never said that access to all classes didn't help. It does help, and I expect to see both the Freeport Alliance and whatever Darkor's raiding alliance calls itself in VP within a month or two of having all classes, if not before. They've just killed Venril, so the hard fight on the road to VP is out of the way. I honestly didn't expect them to kill Venril, so grats to them.</p><p>Thing is though, some people are just more motivated/dedicated. Look at Purity vs all of Qeynos on Venekor. Purity has killed Druushk, Q-Venekor has killed... the first 4 names in PR? What's the difference? You all have the same classes, you have access to the same gear. Why haven't you killed anything?</p></blockquote><p>You do realize Naggy Qs have like 5 times the population as Venekor Qs right? We lost Grey Wolves, Tribunal, Talendor Raiders, Storm and other key guids/people, most of them going to Naggy, rest going to exile. We suffered the biggest population decrease in the last six months, but hey, I guess all of us could have left, and not tried things the hard way. You try raiding when you've lost well over half of the dedicated population. It would be like you trying to clear VP with two groups.</p><p>Qeynos on Venekor is desperately outnumbered, desperately out geared, yet we truck on. And all of our loyalty to our city has got us nothing but grief from the rest of the server.</p>

[-Arctura-]

<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Qeynos on Venekor is desperately outnumbered, desperately out geared, yet we truck on. And all of our loyalty to our city has got us nothing but grief from the rest of the server.</p></blockquote>(( Hehe. There is another BIG GIANT reason nobody likes Qeynos side on Venekor.... and part of the reason Qeynos side will continue to suffer  ^_^Anyways...*wades through the thread*I just think its funny how no matter what you do, you will always have some people saying 'me and my guild are cancelling our subscriptions because of this!', and at the same time others saying 'this is awesome news! Me and my guild are re-newing our subscription, and old friends are coming back to the game because of this!'Lol <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Paikis]

<p>Some Exile's will quit, some will shelf their characters, some will keep on trucking. </p><p>I certainly wont be coming back to a faction if i lose my masters. They pretty much can't be replaced on venekor. I could have all the money in the world and I'd still only have 4 masters if I came back to a faction. Even to just get Adept IIIs at current prices (i expect them to go up shortly) it will cost me almost 300 plat.</p><p>No thanks.</p>

[Sightless]

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Some Exile's will quit, some will shelf their characters, some will keep on trucking. </p><p>I certainly wont be coming back to a faction if i lose my masters. They pretty much can't be replaced on venekor. I could have all the money in the world and I'd still only have 4 masters if I came back to a faction. Even to just get Adept IIIs at current prices (i expect them to go up shortly) it will cost me almost 300 plat.</p><p>No thanks.</p></blockquote><p>I noticed you ignored my last point.</p><p>They shouldn't allow you to keep your masters. It's costing me a fortune to go from Ranger to Assassin, not to mention the time to get melee friendly gear in place of the Ranger friendly gear. Every Qeynos or Freeport class that changes will be losing Masters, and Adept IIIs. You've already had your cake getting VP loot, and Mythicals, why should you also eat that cake too, and get to keep your Masters when you come back and gear up with the PvP gear you left behind?</p>

[Vlahkmaak]

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Some Exile's will quit, some will shelf their characters, some will keep on trucking. </p><p>I certainly wont be coming back to a faction if i lose my masters. They pretty much can't be replaced on venekor. I could have all the money in the world and I'd still only have 4 masters if I came back to a faction. Even to just get Adept IIIs at current prices (i expect them to go up shortly) it will cost me almost 300 plat.</p><p>No thanks.</p></blockquote>I'd harvest my (forced to remove) off for you Paikis. 

[Paikis]

<p>Are you telling me that you don't have 24 players to put a raid together? because you only need 24 players to get into VP, heck you can even clear it with 24 players. As for your gear, all I can say is LOL. I've seen it, it'll be easily replaceable.</p><p>My question is this, Why shouldn't we get to keep our masters? What do you lose if we get to keep them? Does all of Qeynos get a plat or two for every exile that loses their masters?</p><p>You people have spent forever crying that its not fair that we get to raid with all classes and asking for them for yourselves. You saw what we had, but you ignored what we had to give up to get it. You accused us of playing in 'easy mode' and yet the whole time you were crying out to be given 'easier mode'... which you now have. And now you don't want us to keep our masters because it'll do what...? Oh thats right, it'll keep us happy. Those masters cannot be replaced on Venekor. The T6/T7 ancients especially.</p><p>I've said you don't need all classes to raid and I stand by that, what I have never said is that I don't want you to have all classes. I've been for that right from the start.</p>

[Paikis]

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd harvest my (forced to remove) off for you Paikis. </blockquote>While i appreciate the thought, its not Adept IIIs that I'm worried about. I can replace those. Its the masters that I can't. In the last 4 months or so there's never been more than 5-6 Troub masters on the broker, and of those that were there, only 2 have sold AFAIK. I can harvest for Adept IIIs, I can't harvest masters.

[Vlahkmaak]

I can see the arguement against gving exiles tier3 guild housing - it is a castle after all.  tier 1 would still allow exiles to function while stifling them and since it is only a 5 room house anyway it would easily be hid from the city spies (to help the RP's out with this concept) in a far off place like Maj Dul.

[Sightless]

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Are you telling me that you don't have 24 players to put a raid together? because you only need 24 players to get into VP, heck you can even clear it with 24 players. As for your gear, all I can say is LOL. I've seen it, it'll be easily replaceable.</p><p>My question is this, Why shouldn't we get to keep our masters? What do you lose if we get to keep them? Does all of Qeynos get a plat or two for every exile that loses their masters?</p><p>You people have spent forever crying that its not fair that we get to raid with all classes and asking for them for yourselves. You saw what we had, but you ignored what we had to give up to get it. You accused us of playing in 'easy mode' and yet the whole time you were crying out to be given 'easier mode'... which you now have. And now you don't want us to keep our masters because it'll do what...? Oh thats right, it'll keep us happy. Those masters cannot be replaced on Venekor. The T6/T7 ancients especially.</p><p>I've said you don't need all classes to raid and I stand by that, what I have never said is that I don't want you to have all classes. I've been for that right from the start.</p></blockquote><p>If it was as simple as having 24 players, you wouldn't have exiled. Now would you? When the server was full staff, you guys couldn't do it. But you are insulting Qeynos after losing so many guilds, and so many people? If YOU didn't need all classes, you would have joined other dedicated guilds and been in VP. You couldn't do it until you had access to all classes. Heck, when Grey Wolves were being honest the posted and update on how big of a difference it did make once they got a few key classes from the Freep side. Now all of a sudden it didn't matter? COME ON!!</p><p>You shouldn't be able to keep your masters, because we lose our masters. I'm losing three masters on my Ranger when I exile to Assassin. Should I be able to get those back since you want to keep yours?</p>

[Vlahkmaak]

<cite>Ragefist wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no point...  I think that's the concept that nobody is grasping here.  We left our cities knowing we'd have to sacrifice our pvp gear/signets/houses/mounts etc to be able to raid/FFA pvp.  What we didn't know is that in the near future SOE would turn around and give us a big emphatic NO.  Do you really think that so many people would've exiled if all classes were offered to both factions?  NOWAY.  Besides a select few, there will be no people that will ever want to go exile again therefore destroying all exiled guilds as we know it.  Is that our fault? No...  So why are we being punished by people we PAY monthy in order to "enjoy" this game?  Doesn't make sense.</blockquote>The way I understand it you all left the cities to raid with better players becuase we were not up to your standards.  With the new change we are not magically gonna be on par with exiled raiding forces.  We will continue to have a lot of work to do.  We will continue to have to recruit for the positons that are needed.  You all are gonna continue, for the time being, to be the raid power houses.  As you continue to clear content before the rest of us the better palyers amongst us are going to try to continue to get in your raids becuase thye want to be their now, not later.  You could continue doing what you are doing now, farm your replacement amsters, and come back some day fully geared with new masters before the 09 x-pac.

[Sorffats]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think it's time for exiled to just understand that exiled wasn't meant to be a third faction to begin with. SOE has finally done something to alleviate the anomaly. Exileds rised up in ranks of being the first to accomplish everything because it went from what was supposed to be a detriment to those that chose to go "hardmode" for pvp to "ezmode" for raiding because of the access to all classes.</p><p>To all of you exileds: you had your moment of glory and being the best because you were able to obtain the best. It is time for you to come to one of three conclusions. 1. Go to Freeport. 2. Go to Qeynos. 3. Stay exiled where you will remain truly exiled.</p><p>What you don't seem to understand is that with the upcomming change, you will STILL be able to function the same as you always have in exiled; only now, you will be able to have the minor perks of city signets, pvp gear, and city housing/guild halls (if you choose a faction). In which, as far as raiding was concerned, failed to compare to the perk you always had ... access to all classes. Now that factions will be allowed that major advantage, exileds will no longer be the only ones to have that advantage.</p><p>None of us in factions are saying that the ability to have all classes is going to automatically get us our mythicals and VP gear. But for those handful of guilds in factions that HAVE managed (despite the incredible odds) to break into VP, will have a much needed boost in being able to accomplish what only exiled could before.</p><p>The two biggest gains for city factions with this, will be templars for freeport and brigands for qeynos. Raiding MT groups on both sides will have more options for buffs that increase stats, buffs that increase hp, and added healing. DPS and utility for both sides will have much more to be able to choose from. For a long time, exileds had the cream of the crop to choose from (as far as selecting classes). Now factions will have that opportunity.</p><p>We don't pity you, exileds. You had it too good for too long.</p></blockquote><p>What you and everyone else don't seem to understand, is the impact of a huge problem trying to recruit for a exiled raiding guild this will cause in the future.</p><p>I understand this would take logic and reasoning but please don't strain yourself in doing so trying to comprehend this in its entirety.</p><p>I could care less of your pity its obvious the devs cant even comprehend this situation in its entirety so there's no way I could fathom you to be able to do so....</p><p>Sure nothing will really change at first, except for the fact that a % of exiles will leave exile to do the same exact thing in a city, and then from that point on it will be a constant struggle to recruit anyone to exile for the purpose of raiding.</p><p>If SOE isn't careful they will lose even more raiders as a result, its not a balanced change.</p><p>I understand it was not SOE intent of people on pvp servers to have to exile to raid but it's a result of the past 2 years of there doing. It's a slap in the face, a screw up on there part, not exile's. So now they choose to fix it all the while screwing over everyone who had the balls to do what it took to get things done.</p><p>So now you have a % of exiles who would rather quit than go back because of the hassle of gaining new spells and another % of exiles who want to go back for all the perks only city folks get. So I guess we call the update the "Operation Exile Home wrecker"</p></blockquote><p>Ya see, that is where you are wrong. I DO get it. I welcome the fact that exileds will have trouble recruiting. YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE A FACTION! There, I have said it again. <span style="color: #ff6600;"><b>I didn't say it was the exileds fault, but SONY did create the problem</b></span>, and now have finally made the attempt to rectify it. </p><p>For so long, most exileds would say they are exiled for more pvp choices. If that is true, then stay exiled for the pvp targets. You will surely be hardmode then if you can't recruit for raiding purposes. And for those that are the die hard and hard core raiders that they say they are, then they'll have no problems going to a city and either joining an existing guild (the few that will be welcomed in an already established factioned guild, that is) or reforming their own guild in a city.</p><p>You will have the same options for raiding, and MORE! You'll still be able to fight all classes, because now they'll be in both cities! So you won't have as many people in exiled so you can kill each other to get me off your recent anymore so you can take my infamy again in 1 minute instead of 30 minutes....boo-[Removed for Content]-hoo.</p><p>Lastly, I will say that as much as I have abhorred exileds in the past, I don't [Removed for Content] care if you can't recruit. As I stated previously, you exileds had it too good for too long. It's time for this much needed change.</p></blockquote><span class="postbody">This seems to be a topic that you are completely ignorant of. First, The reasons for going exile now are crippled in comparison to the reasons for being in a city. Free for all PVP is the only reason. Now, That means that the people exiling will be doing it for the reasons of PvP, not raiding. If there are no raiders exiling, because the benefits no longer exceed or even equal the detriments, then you are unable to recruit. As you've pointed out so many times, you must be able to recruit in order to raid. Thus, This update will sever the lifeblood of any guild, it's power to recruit.Now, are we being forced to go back to the cities? No, but it's basically the same as the Dev's saying, "I'm not going to force you back to the cities, but i'm going to punch you in the face until you do go, and anybody that joins you will recieve the same treatment." Believe it or not, those are not the best conditions to recruit.That's why, exiles that plan to raid, and exiled to raid, will eventually be forced back into the cities. This is why I have posted on this thread and others. Exiles left the cities with an understanding of what they were losing, and what they were gaining. That origional agreement is no longer there. The Dev's gave birth to the beast that has become Exile Guilds, and it's their responsibility to deal with it as best as possible.You can not simply say, "Go through this door and i'll pinch you, but give you 5 dollars", then once through the door, stab them in the back, steal 10 dollars out of their wallet, and call it even. This is however, as of right now with current information, what the Dev's are attempting to do with this change.Grow up, see past you're exile rage, and realize that something must be done about exiles besides screwing them over. You may not realize it, but their a huge part of you're player base, it'd be much better to have them back in the cities, then quitting. Unless you just love running around with nobody to fight.As for you're whole theory of punishing exiles, why? You openly admit it was SoE's mistake, yet you want the players that decided to use what was avaliable to them in a game to be punished? You had the same exact options, some decided to sacrafice their pvp gear, cities, houses and more to raid more efficently; and now that SoE decides to change that, they need to be punished?Again, Grow up and stop being so short sided.</span></blockquote><p>Lol, I am not ignorant of anything. I have grasped from the past of how arrogant most exileds are with the things they were able to do with all classes and exceed where city factions couldn't. And I grasp how, with this new change of all classes given to cities, exileds will no longer be the only ones able to complete the content. I completely understand how exileds might be a bit upset that they are losing the monopoly of their "faction". Currently, city factions can't compete because we are crippled by not having access to all of the classes. I can very well see how exileds might fear this, because once cities have access to all classes as well as all the amenities that a city offers, exileds will lose their little advantage.</p><p>Exileds will no longer be the only ones that can obtain mythicals and VP gear. I know that there are a couple of factioned guilds currently in VP (my guild is one of them), but those of us that got there, got there enduring very much more difficulty than any exiled guild has. Our options for classes were limited. Some encounters we defeated we know could have been easier and taken us less time to conquer with a class(es) that we didn't have access to. I'm sure qeynos would have LOVED to have had brigand dispatch for significant turning point mobs such as doomcoil, overking, and venril. I know that we would have LOVED to have had templar sanctuary for the same. Q and FP alike wouldn't have minded having two seperate types of summoners for hearts and shards for power gain. And the list can go on and on. Some classes that seem to not matter, could very well have been that little bit extra that we in cities could have needed. </p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><b>I fail to understand you're statement that you are being "punched in the face". You aren't losing anything.</b></span> You aren't gaining anything, but the exiled faction isn't changing at all. So you say, "we will lose players". Well, that may be the case; but that isn't our fault in the cities either. Exileds took something and used it for something it wasn't intended to be used for. Not your fault, I understand that. If you don't want to be back in a city, don't go; but don't complain about the consequences of that decision.</p></blockquote>Are you just...randomly typing out idiotic thoughts without actually reading the posts? For one, This has nothing to do with the arrogance of exiles, nor is it about what factions guilds could and could not accomplish. This is about the fact that exiles have not done anything wrong. They took sacrafices to gain all classes for raiding purposes, they did this with the understanding that that was how the Dev's wanted the situation to be. It's not an oversight, the dev's just didnt "forget" that if someone from freeport exiled, and someone from qeynos exiled, they'd end up together. The dev's have already said, they knew what was going on, it was simply the advancement of raid gear and mythicals tipped the scales in favor of exiles when dealing with raid content.As you have pointed out, this is NOT our fault. We used what the game gave us, we sacraficed what the cities chose to keep instead of gaining all classes. Now, all classes are being given to the cities, thats fine and it was a decision that was a long time coming; also how it should have been from the start. However, The Dev's created this problem and many players have gone exile to form guilds, these players need not be punished because the Dev's decided to rethink how the game mechanics would work on PvP servers.For the last time, try and actually use you're brain. Exile guilds that are in exile to raid, will no longer be able to recruit, therefore, this change is commiting exile guilds to a slow death. Any active raid guild must be able to recruit in order to keep going, RL comes into effect and players drop out of guilds all the time. Those that exile from this point forward will be doing so for Free for All PvP, NOT to Raid.Incase you're incapable of even understanding that much, i'll make it even more simple for you.People + Guild = RaidNo People + Guild = No Raid.= WE CAN NOT SIMPLY STAY EXILE. Exiles knew what they were giving up and gaining by exiling, those factors and the terms of exile are no longer the same. The Dev's created this problem by allowing guilds to be formed in exile. Now that they've decided to rethink their decision over half a year later, exiles should not pay the price for their change of heart.</blockquote><p>And I'll make my reply simple.... I don't CARE if exileds get the shaft.   </p><p>Exileds have been ezmode when it wasn't supposed to be ezmode.  For whatever reason exiled faction was created, it made being in a city inferior.   Now that the cities are getting a bit of compensation for that crippling, exileds are crying about it.    If you lose guild members that are going back to the cities, then evidentally you don't have the dedicated guild members that you thought you did.   I really don't see how you could not see that coming.  I mean, afterall, all of those people turned their backs on the loyalty of the city they were in to make gain for themselves to begin with; what makes you think that they are going to stick around when the sun is no longer shining on them?</p><p>I can understand the pain that some exiles may have because of this because they've burned their bridges in whatever city guild they were in before.   But I honestly don't care.  Why should I?   I've been in the x2 or x3 several months back that fought the single group of exileds that had mythicals and VP gear and witnessed just how inferior city factioned guilds were because of the lack of ability to progress due to not having access to all classes.  It took us longer to gear up and progress because of this, but the select few of us were so dedicated (despite all the exiled claim as to how undedicated we supposedly were) to pounding out what we were told we could not do.   Now, in the near future, we will get the access to all classes and will make our progression just a bit easier.  We know it's not going to just be given to us because we get all classes, but we WILL be able to have a little light of equality shed on us.</p><p>So you left cities to raid.  You left behind the signets, the housing, and whatnot.  You made a sacrifice.   Well, you made a sacrifice before, you can make a sacrifice again.   Either stay in exile and reap what you've sewn, or suck it up and go back to a city and continue to do what you've been doing but with the rewards that a city has to offer.</p><p>I've always preferred the ORIGINAL good vs evil aspect of pvp on nagafen.  I never liked the good vs evil vs the OP (exiled).</p>

[SibsLynx]

I come from Vox server, and as an all Qeynos guild we made it to VP.  Once we got to druushk I knew it couldnt be done, and no Faction guild ever killed it before it was nerfed.  All classes are needed to progress in raiding, but to completely screw all the people in exile is just wrong.  Im sure they will offer some incentive either way, and im looking forward to the change.  The best part will be seeing the guilds that have been raiding for so long as a faction and used that as an excuse still fail.

[nastymatt]

<p>Slightless - you clearly have NO idea what you are talking about or are just ignoring what Paikis is saying on purpose.</p><p>Game mechanics at present are that exiles have all classes. If you wish to change classes you need to change factions hence losing your masters. We all know that. We all know if we go exile and come back to faction we lose our masters. THE GAME MECHANICS ARE GOING TO CHANGE. SOE are changing the mechanics to give faction an advantage, they are changing the rule set. I play under the current rule set not the FUTURE rule set. If the rule set is changing then all things must be considered i.e. all the poeple who have worked hard for what they have.</p><p>You are also completely ignoring what Paikis is saying about why they exiled and I can completely sympthise with his reason. We too did not have 24 dedicated players. We play on Euro time and stayed faction for ages to recruit, we had 12-14 good enough players and the rest were not dedicated or skilled enough to play. And no, you can't get into VP with 12 decent players. Our ONLY chance of raiding end content was to merge with a guild that also played euro time and they were in exile. Under the CURRENT rule set them coming to faction would have meant them losing masters, we wouldn't so we went to exile. Now we have a great raid force.</p><p>After seeing Purity get into VP with a dedicated raid force no faction has the right to complain it's not doable. You have whined and whined and got your all classes - don't moan about us wanting to keep what we have worked hard for - for 7 months. </p><p>Not all exiles are there purely for all classes so stop using that as your argument.</p>

[Khrunk]

<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Are you telling me that you don't have 24 players to put a raid together? because you only need 24 players to get into VP, heck you can even clear it with 24 players. As for your gear, all I can say is LOL. I've seen it, it'll be easily replaceable.</p><p>My question is this, Why shouldn't we get to keep our masters? What do you lose if we get to keep them? Does all of Qeynos get a plat or two for every exile that loses their masters?</p><p>You people have spent forever crying that its not fair that we get to raid with all classes and asking for them for yourselves. You saw what we had, but you ignored what we had to give up to get it. You accused us of playing in 'easy mode' and yet the whole time you were crying out to be given 'easier mode'... which you now have. And now you don't want us to keep our masters because it'll do what...? Oh thats right, it'll keep us happy. Those masters cannot be replaced on Venekor. The T6/T7 ancients especially.</p><p>I've said you don't need all classes to raid and I stand by that, what I have never said is that I don't want you to have all classes. I've been for that right from the start.</p></blockquote><p>If it was as simple as having 24 players, you wouldn't have exiled. Now would you? When the server was full staff, you guys couldn't do it. But you are insulting Qeynos after losing so many guilds, and so many people? If YOU didn't need all classes, you would have joined other dedicated guilds and been in VP. You couldn't do it until you had access to all classes. Heck, when Grey Wolves were being honest the posted and update on how big of a difference it did make once they got a few key classes from the Freep side. Now all of a sudden it didn't matter? COME ON!!</p><p>You shouldn't be able to keep your masters, because we lose our masters. I'm losing three masters on my Ranger when I exile to Assassin. Should I be able to get those back since you want to keep yours?</p></blockquote>Are you dense or just plain stupid? Paikis came from the same alliance i came from, and when you lose the vast majority of dedicated raiders and guildies to raid, you cant raid. Hell we didnt even have 24 people to raid. A good chunk of the raiders went to aoc and the other half decided to raid in their own guild. Even before they left we had the exact same problem with the lackeys that sucked us dry. People crying cause they died like 5 times to name or if we spent more than 30 minutes pulling a mob trying to learn it. Its not possible to raid anything hard when you have 12 pulling, trying to pick up slack for the other 12 that don't care enough to get the mission done. I know you know how it is cause you've raided right, or you just one of those people talking bleep out your bleep.The only time this server was full staff was well before eof came into existance, but being the big brain you are, you already knew that. Odvisiouly if you needed all classes to be in vp that means purity must've been a fluke right. Took them what 20 pulls to kill Druusk, when you and everyone on the faction side said it couldn't be done and was no way possible.

[nastymatt]

<p>Vize - you have never pvp/raided with all classes have you? Hence your lack of knowledge. </p><p>Yes those classes you have named will be of benefit to Q's. But not nearly the same benefit as a templar will be to freeps. (But I did not want to go into the merits of every single class).</p><p>You did not quote me as at no stage did I have say it was "only skill" to get into/clear VP. I think if you had quoted me you would have said "dedication". I am also guessing you have not raided 4 times a week for 5 hours at a time for 6 months with a static raid group, which is a common theme among the faction players who have failed at raiding - dedication.</p>

[Krakelkr]

<p>I'm of the opinion that faction guilds mostly have lacked the dedication for raiding, just so you know. But really, exiles, stop this terrible whining! Are you hardcore or not?<b>If you are the best, you'll be able to recruit. Period.</b>Doesn't matter if you're Exiled, Qeynos or Freeport. You still have every choice. You're acting like you want to be spoiled.</p>

[Gimet]

<p>You exiles are such hypocrites.</p><p>You use Purity as an example that Factions are capable of it WITHOUT all classes.</p><p>But then you guys say All Classes is an advantage in Exile.</p><p>On top of that you say you don't need all classes, but Dedication.</p><p>Then on top of that you say Factions didn't have dedication, so you went Exile.</p><p>And on top of that, as more people think like you, they go exile as well.</p><p>And on top of the fact that Exile saps life out of factions, which you all are aware of, you want to call Faction players lazy for not killing the mobs.</p><p>HOWEVER, on top of that you all went Exile to raid and not to PvP.</p><p>Make up your argument. Why did you leave factions if they are soooo capable? Especially if Purity did it now, why weren't you all able to do it before the exile bananza?</p>

[Valdar]

<cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And I'll make my reply simple.... I don't CARE if exileds get the shaft.   </p></blockquote><p>Well, I do.</p><p>I am not asking for the city factions not to get all classes. I think it has been long overdue that they got them. What I do want is SOE to give people in Exile the option to choose a faction without destroying months of hard work getting masters. Giving Exiles this in no way takes anything away from the cities. Nor does it put the factions back in the wheelchair as Rippy puts it. It only reduces the negative aspect of this change for fellow gamers, and keeps customer's happy.</p>

[Gimet]

<cite>Phaust@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And I'll make my reply simple.... I don't CARE if exileds get the shaft.   </p></blockquote><p>Well, I do.</p><p>I am not asking for the city factions not to get all classes. I think it has been long overdue that they got them. What I do want is SOE to give people in Exile the option to choose a faction without destroying months of hard work getting masters. Giving Exiles this in no way takes anything away from the cities. Nor does it put the factions back in the wheelchair as Rippy puts it. It only reduces the negative aspect of this change for fellow gamers, and keeps customer's happy.</p></blockquote><p>I think there's a huge misunderstanding in these arguments.</p><p>Compromise: Allow Exiles to come back with Masters= most people are fine with this. Exile becomes weak, cities strong, players happy.</p><p>What we faction players don't want to see: Exile becoming a full fledged City Faction. Cities get no players, the supposedly crippled faction stays on top. Keep exile crippled, it was meant to be that way.</p>

[nastymatt]

<p><cite>What a very poor post!! </cite></p><p><cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You exiles are such hypocrites.</p><p>You use Purity as an example that Factions are capable of it WITHOUT all classes. <span style="color: #ff0000;">And? what are you trying to say??</span></p><p>But then you guys say All Classes is an advantage in Exile. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Of course it is no one said otherwise - what are you trying to say??</span></p><p>On top of that you say you don't need all classes, but Dedication. <span style="color: #ff0000;">No exile said you NEED all classes - of course you need dedication. what are you trying to say??</span></p><p>Then on top of that you say Factions didn't have dedication, so you went Exile. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Yes. what are you trying to say??</span></p><p>And on top of that, as more people think like you, they go exile as well. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Yes. what are you trying to say??</span></p><p>And on top of the fact that Exile saps life out of factions, which you all are aware of, you want to call Faction players lazy for not killing the mobs. <span style="color: #ff0000;">We WERE faction based and not enough faction players were good enough. what are you trying to say</span><span style="color: #ff0000;">??</span></p><p>HOWEVER, on top of that you all went Exile to raid and not to PvP. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Show me a post where an exile said they went exile to PVP and they are now moaning at the change? You are making it up.</span></p><p>Make up your argument. Why did you leave factions if they are soooo capable? Especially if Purity did it now, why weren't you all able to do it before the exile bananza? Read the original replies if you are having trouble comprehending! <span style="color: #ff0000;">We went exile as there were not enough Freeport Euro players to make up a decent 24 man raid. Purity is Q side.</span></p></blockquote><p>Please do not post a totally incoherent post with complete contradictions and full of reasons you are attributing to exiles that have never been said. You are trying to quote what exiles have said and are moaning about but are failing due to the inaccuracies of your reasoning.</p><p><b>Once again, we went exile because we could not find 24 dedicated raid orientated freeport european players. If our guild wanted to see end content we HAD to go exile to merge with another guild.</b></p><p>That is it. There is no mention of all classes or ffa pvp. These were all by products but not the reason. I have no problem with factions having all classes. At last it will stop faction moaning about how exiles are "easy mode" because you will fail. Why? Because there are not enough dedicated raiders - hence why we went exile - not euro times anyway. The only people who will gain are the guilds in VP at present and I know that's none of the people posting here with their loathing of exiles. </p>

[Valdar]

<cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Phaust@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And I'll make my reply simple.... I don't CARE if exileds get the shaft.   </p></blockquote><p>Well, I do.</p><p>I am not asking for the city factions not to get all classes. I think it has been long overdue that they got them. What I do want is SOE to give people in Exile the option to choose a faction without destroying months of hard work getting masters. Giving Exiles this in no way takes anything away from the cities. Nor does it put the factions back in the wheelchair as Rippy puts it. It only reduces the negative aspect of this change for fellow gamers, and keeps customer's happy.</p></blockquote><p>I think there's a huge misunderstanding in these arguments.</p><p>Compromise: Allow Exiles to come back with Masters= most people are fine with this. Exile becomes weak, cities strong, players happy.</p><p>What we faction players don't want to see: Exile becoming a full fledged City Faction. Cities get no players, the supposedly crippled faction stays on top. Keep exile crippled, it was meant to be that way.</p></blockquote>Sounds good to me.

[Khrunk]

<cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You exiles are such hypocrites.</p><p>You use Purity as an example that Factions are capable of it WITHOUT all classes.</p><p>But then you guys say All Classes is an advantage in Exile.</p><p>On top of that you say you don't need all classes, but Dedication.</p><p>Then on top of that you say Factions didn't have dedication, so you went Exile.</p><p>And on top of that, as more people think like you, they go exile as well.</p><p>And on top of the fact that Exile saps life out of factions, which you all are aware of, you want to call Faction players lazy for not killing the mobs.</p><p>HOWEVER, on top of that you all went Exile to raid and not to PvP.</p><p>Make up your argument. Why did you leave factions if they are soooo capable? Especially if Purity did it now, why weren't you all able to do it before the exile bananza?</p></blockquote>why are you posting about raiding when you have never raided anything? you're highest toon is like lvl 45. you commenting on raiding is like me giving a presentation on brain surgery.

[Faenril]

<cite>nastymatt wrote:</cite><blockquote><b>Once again, we went exile because we could not find 24 dedicated raid orientated freeport european players. If our guild wanted to see end content we HAD to go exile to merge with another guild.</b></blockquote>You mean there was no other guild in freeport with ... let's say an x2 of good raiders to merge with ?You really ***HAD*** to exile to achieve this ?May I ask what server and what guild guild you belong to ? because that seems incredible, at least on Nagafen.

[Slow]

roflroflroflroflrofl.

[liveja]

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>My question is this, Why shouldn't we get to keep our masters? </p></blockquote><p>Are you suggesting that SOE eliminate the loss of spells from Betrayal? I think it's a pretty good assumption that if they did, it would happen on all servers, not just the PvP servers, so effectively, you're asking them to neuter yet another portion of this game, just so you can transfer back to a city faction without loss.</p><p>Let's please not ask SOE to neuter the game beyond what they've already done, OK?</p>

[liveja]

<cite>Ragefist wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you really think that so many people would've exiled if all classes were offered to both factions?</blockquote><p>Nope, I've never believed all the guffy talk about people Exiling just for the FFA PvP. I've believed all along that the very vast majority of Exiles did so in order to PvE raid with all classes. That's exactly why I have so little sympathy for you Exiles now: you wanted ez mode PvE.</p><p>Well, I'm terribly not sorry to tell you, but the Ez Mode PvE CandyLand servers are thataway >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>></p>

[Sightless]

<cite>Khrunk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Are you telling me that you don't have 24 players to put a raid together? because you only need 24 players to get into VP, heck you can even clear it with 24 players. As for your gear, all I can say is LOL. I've seen it, it'll be easily replaceable.</p><p>My question is this, Why shouldn't we get to keep our masters? What do you lose if we get to keep them? Does all of Qeynos get a plat or two for every exile that loses their masters?</p><p>You people have spent forever crying that its not fair that we get to raid with all classes and asking for them for yourselves. You saw what we had, but you ignored what we had to give up to get it. You accused us of playing in 'easy mode' and yet the whole time you were crying out to be given 'easier mode'... which you now have. And now you don't want us to keep our masters because it'll do what...? Oh thats right, it'll keep us happy. Those masters cannot be replaced on Venekor. The T6/T7 ancients especially.</p><p>I've said you don't need all classes to raid and I stand by that, what I have never said is that I don't want you to have all classes. I've been for that right from the start.</p></blockquote><p>If it was as simple as having 24 players, you wouldn't have exiled. Now would you? When the server was full staff, you guys couldn't do it. But you are insulting Qeynos after losing so many guilds, and so many people? If YOU didn't need all classes, you would have joined other dedicated guilds and been in VP. You couldn't do it until you had access to all classes. Heck, when Grey Wolves were being honest the posted and update on how big of a difference it did make once they got a few key classes from the Freep side. Now all of a sudden it didn't matter? COME ON!!</p><p>You shouldn't be able to keep your masters, because we lose our masters. I'm losing three masters on my Ranger when I exile to Assassin. Should I be able to get those back since you want to keep yours?</p></blockquote>Are you dense or just plain stupid? Paikis came from the same alliance i came from, and when you lose the vast majority of dedicated raiders and guildies to raid, you cant raid. Hell we didnt even have 24 people to raid. A good chunk of the raiders went to aoc and the other half decided to raid in their own guild. Even before they left we had the exact same problem with the lackeys that sucked us dry. People crying cause they died like 5 times to name or if we spent more than 30 minutes pulling a mob trying to learn it. Its not possible to raid anything hard when you have 12 pulling, trying to pick up slack for the other 12 that don't care enough to get the mission done. I know you know how it is cause you've raided right, or you just one of those people talking bleep out your bleep.The only time this server was full staff was well before eof came into existance, but being the big brain you are, you already knew that. Odvisiouly if you needed all classes to be in vp that means purity must've been a fluke right. Took them what 20 pulls to kill Druusk, when you and everyone on the faction side said it couldn't be done and was no way possible. </blockquote>First of all, I NEVER said it wasn't possible to get into VP. I said it wasn't possible to get into VP in a reasonable amount of time. They still havn't cleared VP yet. And Venekor Freeps didn't lose near as many guilds, or people as Venekore Qs. You still had a lot of dedicated raiders, yet you left. It took Venekor Qs months to figure out if we were ever going to have dedicated raiders to raid. Unlike you guys, we didn't take the easy road the second it got hard. We've endured, and you give us hell for it, and you couldn't endure?

[nastymatt]

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>nastymatt wrote:</cite><blockquote><b>Once again, we went exile because we could not find 24 dedicated raid orientated freeport european players. If our guild wanted to see end content we HAD to go exile to merge with another guild.</b></blockquote>You mean there was no other guild in freeport with ... let's say an x2 of good raiders to merge with ?You really ***HAD*** to exile to achieve this ?May I ask what server and what guild guild you belong to ? because that seems incredible, at least on Nagafen.</blockquote><p>Nagafen and we were Valhalla (freeport).  We simply could not recruit 24 hc european players. And before you say that we could have recruited more, remember we were the only euro timezone Freeport raiding guild - if you were a euro/freep and wanted to raid t8 we were the only real option yet we could not get the numbers. It's not like we were competing with other Freeport guilds. We then went and merged with Nexus.</p><p>The choice was not taken lightly as a few of the leaders had exiled before and not enjoyed it (including me). It was the last roll of the dice for us. If we failed it was game over as there were no alternatives.</p>

[Armironhead]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ironic- Someone from vox talking about accomplishments, shut up.</blockquote><p>Please -- any accomplishment on vox (or any low pop server) is twice that of naggy (or any other high pop server) since we have to overcome the difficulties of being on a low pop server.  Plainly you come from an easy mode high pop server -- so dont talk about accomplishments as if you have actually done something.</p><p> Of course talking about accomplishments in terms of a videogame is very nubish and geek like anyway.  I'm sure no one really cares one way or the other what any of these servers do.</p>

[Paikis]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>My question is this, Why shouldn't we get to keep our masters? </p></blockquote><p>Are you suggesting that SOE eliminate the loss of spells from Betrayal? I think it's a pretty good assumption that if they did, it would happen on all servers, not just the PvP servers, so effectively, you're asking them to neuter yet another portion of this game, just so you can transfer back to a city faction without loss.</p><p>Let's please not ask SOE to neuter the game beyond what they've already done, OK?</p></blockquote><p>I'm suggesting that for 1 week, or even as a one-time thing, that exiles get to keep their masters when returning to a city. I'm asking this because Sony have basically gutted the faction, even the most exile-hating player has to admit that they've changed the rules to the detriment of the Exiles. </p><p>My main objection is that my masters CANNOT be replaced on venekor. They simply do not exist because our population is so low.</p><p>Does anyone have a valid reason why we shouldn't get to keep em?</p>

[Faenril]

<cite>nastymatt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>nastymatt wrote:</cite><blockquote><b>Once again, we went exile because we could not find 24 dedicated raid orientated freeport european players. If our guild wanted to see end content we HAD to go exile to merge with another guild.</b></blockquote>You mean there was no other guild in freeport with ... let's say an x2 of good raiders to merge with ?You really ***HAD*** to exile to achieve this ?May I ask what server and what guild guild you belong to ? because that seems incredible, at least on Nagafen.</blockquote><p>Nagafen and we were Valhalla (freeport). We simply could not recruit 24 hc european players. And before you say that we could have recruited more, remember we were the only euro timezone Freeport raiding guild - if you were a euro/freep and wanted to raid t8 we were the only real option yet we could not get the numbers. It's not like we were competing with other Freeport guilds. We then went and merged with Nexus.</p><p>The choice was not taken lightly as a few of the leaders had exiled before and not enjoyed it (including me). It was the last roll of the dice for us. If we failed it was game over as there were no alternatives.</p></blockquote>Ok, thanks for the explanation.

[Izzypop]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gimet, Magius, you're both either illiterate or simply didn't read my post. It explains clearly all of you're little questions. Instead, you're unable to see past you're own exile rage and limited point of views. Go Read my post and shut up. None of this even concerns you two. One of you openly admits to not having time to even play the game, while the other doesn't raid. It's a waste of time for me to try and explain the situation as it stands for exiles when you have clue about anything you're talking about.You Don't understand Raiding.You Don't understand Recruiting.You Don't understand the higher tiers of concept that are being discussed here. You're a waste of my time. For anybody else with a comment, direct them to the post I made before finishing off these two malcontent's.</blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What I see on these forums every time i look is people full of envy. You all want the uber raid loots, but you weren't willing to exile to get them. Now that the devs have finally given in to your constant moaning (TBH I'd give it to you just so y'all would shut up) you still aren't satisfied? Not only do you have to be the best option for raiding, you want those people who had the balls to do what you wouldn't punished.</p><p>So now the only reason to exile is for the FFA pvp, but I gotta tell you, killing you and tea bagging the lot of you is really starting to look attractive. Maybe then you can complain that the crouch command is broken and isn't fair.</p></blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>My question is this, Why shouldn't we get to keep our masters? </p></blockquote><p>Are you suggesting that SOE eliminate the loss of spells from Betrayal? I think it's a pretty good assumption that if they did, it would happen on all servers, not just the PvP servers, so effectively, you're asking them to neuter yet another portion of this game, just so you can transfer back to a city faction without loss.</p><p>Let's please not ask SOE to neuter the game beyond what they've already done, OK?</p></blockquote><p>I'm suggesting that for 1 week, or even as a one-time thing, that exiles get to keep their masters when returning to a city. I'm asking this because Sony have basically gutted the faction, even the most exile-hating player has to admit that they've changed the rules to the detriment of the Exiles. </p><p>My main objection is that my masters CANNOT be replaced on venekor. They simply do not exist because our population is so low.</p><p>Does anyone have a valid reason why we shouldn't get to keep em?</p></blockquote>If your real and only goal is to save your spells and not to stop city factions from having the ability to raid end game content tell your people to stop trolling the idea of city factions being ungimped and refocus your efforts to saving your spells. This isn't what you think your are saying, but this is what you sound like to many of the people on the forums.Don't ungimp city factions, when we exiled it was under the assumption that exile was the only faction that can raid end game content. If you ungimp city factions we will have to change sides again, and that will cost us lots of plat that we don't want to spend. Just stuff city factions back in their wheelchairs and let us continue to roll them down the stairs and laugh at them, it would be the best course of action for all of us.If you want to build support for exile amnisty redirect your posts and efforts to a more constructive way of posting. Say things like We exiled to raid end game content, and with the ability for all factions to raid equally there is nothing to hold us in exile. Our guild leaders will not be able to hold our guild together after this patch and without amnisty our guild may collapse. Fixing city factions is a good idea, and leaving them gimped for so long was a huge mistake. Please don't punish those who saw the mistake and worked around it we just want to go back home to our cities now and enjoy the game as it should have been in the 1st place.You guys will get a lot further if you work with city faction on this issue rather than make it sound like you want them to go back in the wheelchair again. That just brings up bad memories for them of being rolled down the stairs by a bully.

[Niou]

<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Are you telling me that you don't have 24 players to put a raid together? because you only need 24 players to get into VP, heck you can even clear it with 24 players. As for your gear, all I can say is LOL. I've seen it, it'll be easily replaceable.</p><p>My question is this, Why shouldn't we get to keep our masters? What do you lose if we get to keep them? Does all of Qeynos get a plat or two for every exile that loses their masters?</p><p>You people have spent forever crying that its not fair that we get to raid with all classes and asking for them for yourselves. You saw what we had, but you ignored what we had to give up to get it. You accused us of playing in 'easy mode' and yet the whole time you were crying out to be given 'easier mode'... which you now have. And now you don't want us to keep our masters because it'll do what...? Oh thats right, it'll keep us happy. Those masters cannot be replaced on Venekor. The T6/T7 ancients especially.</p><p>I've said you don't need all classes to raid and I stand by that, what I have never said is that I don't want you to have all classes. I've been for that right from the start.</p></blockquote><p>If it was as simple as having 24 players, you wouldn't have exiled. Now would you? When the server was full staff, you guys couldn't do it. But you are insulting Qeynos after losing so many guilds, and so many people? If YOU didn't need all classes, you would have joined other dedicated guilds and been in VP. You couldn't do it until you had access to all classes. Heck, when Grey Wolves were being honest the posted and update on how big of a difference it did make once they got a few key classes from the Freep side. Now all of a sudden it didn't matter? COME ON!!</p><p>You shouldn't be able to keep your masters, because we lose our masters. I'm losing <b>three masters</b> on my Ranger when I exile to Assassin. Should I be able to get those back since you want to keep yours?</p></blockquote>Lol.....I'm sorry, I lol'd irl at that. I decided to stay out of this from here on but I simply can't help myself. You need to understand that exiles, unlike the cities (most of you anyway), take care of their own. So while you're friends and guildmates were simply selling and transcribing masters you could have used, we've been outfitting our members.We're not talking about 3 measly masters here. In my case alone, we're talking about 19 T8 Masters. Those have taken almost a year to get and are not able to be replaced on Venekor, as paikis has pointed out, there is no population to farm and post masters for sale, even if we had the money to buy them all back.There are others, off the top of my head? Dapub, 21 masters. The problem we're talking about you can't even grasp.<b>Everybody here remember when SoE changed AA set up's and such? changed the RULES per say of the AA's? What did they do? They gave a 1 time respec for free didn't they?</b><b>SoE has changed the RULES of the entire server, and all Exiles are asking for, is a 1 time free trip back to the cities without the loss of masters. Why? Because the origional deal set up determining what would be LOST and what would be GAINED by exiling no longer exists.</b>If SoE suddenly decided to remove the expensive houses from Freeport and Qeynos, everybody would be mildly upset right? Well, what if they also said, Not only are we removing houses, but we've done it so quickly, that you're also losing all contents contained in you're house. People will throw a fit. That's exactly whats happening here. Because the Dev's are severing the ability to recruit of exile guilds and basically forcing us back to the cities, we will eventually have to go, one way or another. All we're asking for, is the ability to keep what we have gained when playing by the RULES established by the GAME.

[Niou]

<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gimet, Magius, you're both either illiterate or simply didn't read my post. It explains clearly all of you're little questions. Instead, you're unable to see past you're own exile rage and limited point of views. Go Read my post and shut up. None of this even concerns you two. One of you openly admits to not having time to even play the game, while the other doesn't raid. It's a waste of time for me to try and explain the situation as it stands for exiles when you have clue about anything you're talking about.You Don't understand Raiding.You Don't understand Recruiting.You Don't understand the higher tiers of concept that are being discussed here. You're a waste of my time. For anybody else with a comment, direct them to the post I made before finishing off these two malcontent's.</blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What I see on these forums every time i look is people full of envy. You all want the uber raid loots, but you weren't willing to exile to get them. Now that the devs have finally given in to your constant moaning (TBH I'd give it to you just so y'all would shut up) you still aren't satisfied? Not only do you have to be the best option for raiding, you want those people who had the balls to do what you wouldn't punished.</p><p>So now the only reason to exile is for the FFA pvp, but I gotta tell you, killing you and tea bagging the lot of you is really starting to look attractive. Maybe then you can complain that the crouch command is broken and isn't fair.</p></blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>My question is this, Why shouldn't we get to keep our masters? </p></blockquote><p>Are you suggesting that SOE eliminate the loss of spells from Betrayal? I think it's a pretty good assumption that if they did, it would happen on all servers, not just the PvP servers, so effectively, you're asking them to neuter yet another portion of this game, just so you can transfer back to a city faction without loss.</p><p>Let's please not ask SOE to neuter the game beyond what they've already done, OK?</p></blockquote><p>I'm suggesting that for 1 week, or even as a one-time thing, that exiles get to keep their masters when returning to a city. I'm asking this because Sony have basically gutted the faction, even the most exile-hating player has to admit that they've changed the rules to the detriment of the Exiles. </p><p>My main objection is that my masters CANNOT be replaced on venekor. They simply do not exist because our population is so low.</p><p>Does anyone have a valid reason why we shouldn't get to keep em?</p></blockquote>If your real and only goal is to save your spells and not to stop city factions from having the ability to raid end game content tell your people to stop trolling the idea of city factions being ungimped and refocus your efforts to saving your spells. This isn't what you think your are saying, but this is what you sound like to many of the people on the forums.Don't ungimp city factions, when we exiled it was under the assumption that exile was the only faction that can raid end game content. If you ungimp city factions we will have to change sides again, and that will cost us lots of plat that we don't want to spend. Just stuff city factions back in their wheelchairs and let us continue to roll them down the stairs and laugh at them, it would be the best course of action for all of us.If you want to build support for exile amnisty redirect your posts and efforts to a more constructive way of posting. Say things like We exiled to raid end game content, and with the ability for all factions to raid equally there is nothing to hold us in exile. Our guild leaders will not be able to hold our guild together after this patch and without amnisty our guild may collapse. Fixing city factions is a good idea, and leaving them gimped for so long was a huge mistake. Please don't punish those who saw the mistake and worked around it we just want to go back home to our cities now and enjoy the game as it should have been in the 1st place.You guys will get a lot further if you work with city faction on this issue rather than make it sound like you want them to go back in the wheelchair again. That just brings up bad memories for them of being rolled down the stairs by a bully.</blockquote>I think the only people saying that the cities should not get all classes, are those doing it for lore or w/e other reasons. Very few, or I guess I missed their posts, are saying that the cities should not get the classes.Once and for all, WE DO NOT CARE THAT YOU ARE GETTING ALL CLASSES. It will provide for more competition and better fights. It'll also take away this huge fued between the exiles and the cities, no more excuses, just skill.Paikis mentioned it, because someone from the FACTIONS, AGAIN, brought it up. You guys continually do it, over and over all through these threads. He has said factions didn't need etc etc etc, from the start, that hasn't changed, and at this point its moot.Exile guilds from the LU on are unable to recruit for raiding puposes. Because of this we must return to the cities, we're simply asking for the ability to keep our masters on the 1 trip back. Why? Because the rules of the game have changed, which is fine, but you can't just screw over one set of customers that were merely playing by you're rules, and help out another set.

[Niou]

<cite>SibsLynx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I come from Vox server, and as an all Qeynos guild we made it to VP. Once we got to druushk I knew it couldnt be done, and no Faction guild ever killed it before it was nerfed. All classes are needed to progress in raiding, but to completely screw all the people in exile is just wrong. Im sure they will offer some incentive either way, and im looking forward to the change. The best part will be seeing the guilds that have been raiding for so long as a faction and used that as an excuse still fail.</blockquote>I may have to rethink my opinion of Vox. I guess it was the bad apples giving me a slanted point of view on the server.

[Niou]

<cite>Armironhead@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ironic- Someone from vox talking about accomplishments, shut up.</blockquote><p>Please -- any accomplishment on vox (or any low pop server) is twice that of naggy (or any other high pop server) since we have to overcome the difficulties of being on a low pop server. Plainly you come from an easy mode high pop server -- so dont talk about accomplishments as if you have actually done something.</p><p> Of course talking about accomplishments in terms of a videogame is very nubish and geek like anyway. I'm sure no one really cares one way or the other what any of these servers do.</p></blockquote>Was more so talking directly to the person at that time, without actually calling them out or i'd of violated the forum conduct rules lol..Anyway, you're right, it is hard to do things on a low population server, and I play on Venekor, not Nagafen, so that ring's true for sure.The person in question has never raided a day in their life it turns out, so it was a correct assumption. my mistake for judging an entire server on the comments of one lvl 45.My apologies

[Niou]

<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Undacova@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Exiles should not be allowed to return with Masters, because the cities will lose theirs changing to a new class.</p><p>Exiles should be allowed PvP gear, without being able to update writs by killing other exile.</p><p>Exiles should have access to city type Insignias.</p><p>Exiles should remain the third faction they said they were with all the penalties associated with switching sides, just like the OTHER Factions.</p><p>Exiles said for months they exiled for the Free For All PvP, and that was not taken away from them.</p></blockquote>I rarely agree with you but I will here. To me this is the most logical choice to keep a kind of balance, at least on Venekor, that we have come to know. Destroying exile as a thrid faction will likely cause a mass exodus to the cities that will tilt the balance of numbers towards Freeport or Qeynos.Instead of having mass complaints of having too few targets, or always being outnumbered, leave exile as a third faction with the same benefits as the cities. Add guild halls to the list above and I see no downside for anyone in this change. Cities are happy, exiles are happy and we can go on our merry way of complaining about other game mechanics <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</blockquote>You guys should get guild halls too. In my opinion when a faction, be it Freeport, Exile, or Qeynos gets insignias, they should be neutral, and useable by all three factions to by their own class PvP gear. I love having three factions, but I played DAoC for 3 years, and it has kind of grown on me to have three factions.</blockquote>I don't think theres a single exile that would disagree with you. Although there are a few PvP items we'd like, we prefer the FFA PvP over them. Many, including me, only want Guild Halls.However, its looking more and more like Exiles will get the shaft here and not attain any aspects of city life, instead we'll be destroyed slowly. Hopefully we'll be able to keep our masters and return to the cities to provide targets from whichever city we choose. Instead of the majority quitting from having to lose all masters.

[Niou]

<cite>Gimet@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Phaust@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And I'll make my reply simple.... I don't CARE if exileds get the shaft. </p></blockquote><p>Well, I do.</p><p>I am not asking for the city factions not to get all classes. I think it has been long overdue that they got them. What I do want is SOE to give people in Exile the option to choose a faction without destroying months of hard work getting masters. Giving Exiles this in no way takes anything away from the cities. Nor does it put the factions back in the wheelchair as Rippy puts it. It only reduces the negative aspect of this change for fellow gamers, and keeps customer's happy.</p></blockquote><p>I think there's a huge misunderstanding in these arguments.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><b>Compromise: Allow Exiles to come back with Masters= most people are fine with this. Exile becomes weak, cities strong, players happy.</b></span></p><p>What we faction players don't want to see: Exile becoming a full fledged City Faction. Cities get no players, the supposedly crippled faction stays on top. Keep exile crippled, it was meant to be that way.</p></blockquote>If that can happen, I think everybody will be happy.

[JOKULL]

<cite>nastymatt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Slightless - you clearly have NO idea what you are talking about or are just ignoring what Paikis is saying on purpose.</p><p>Game mechanics at present are that exiles have all classes. If you wish to change classes you need to change factions hence losing your masters. We all know that. We all know if we go exile and come back to faction we lose our masters. <span style="color: #ff0000;">THE GAME MECHANICS ARE GOING TO CHANGE. SOE are changing the mechanics to give faction an advantage, they are changing the rule set. I play under the current rule set not the FUTURE rule set. If the rule set is changing then all things must be considered i.e. all the poeple who have worked hard for what they have.</span></p><p>You are also completely ignoring what Paikis is saying about why they exiled and I can completely sympthise with his reason. We too did not have 24 dedicated players. We play on Euro time and stayed faction for ages to recruit, we had 12-14 good enough players and the rest were not dedicated or skilled enough to play. And no, you can't get into VP with 12 decent players. Our ONLY chance of raiding end content was to merge with a guild that also played euro time and they were in exile. Under the CURRENT rule set them coming to faction would have meant them losing masters, we wouldn't so we went to exile. Now we have a great raid force.</p><p>After seeing Purity get into VP with a dedicated raid force no faction has the right to complain it's not doable. You have whined and whined and got your all classes - don't moan about us wanting to keep what we have worked hard for - for 7 months. </p><p>Not all exiles are there purely for all classes so stop using that as your argument.</p></blockquote>I can tell you this change is no different in my eyes than any other game mechanic change in this game including level locking being removed and an AA cap put it in place that completly made all of the hard work on Gear and AA points of said Lockers useless and they were not givin anything to replace it. (this is not about level locking it is purely an example of how people have suffered from mechanics changes before) I guess you could also say any class that has been nerfed to the point of people leaving game or rerolling could be included in this as well.. Im quite sure they all felt they where being wrongly punished for there time and effort put into there classes..As far as Im concerned keep your masters make it a faction whatever..But at the same time they never tossed any of the previous people effected by game mechanic changes a bone so why now?

[Niou]

<cite>JOKULL wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>nastymatt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Slightless - you clearly have NO idea what you are talking about or are just ignoring what Paikis is saying on purpose.</p><p>Game mechanics at present are that exiles have all classes. If you wish to change classes you need to change factions hence losing your masters. We all know that. We all know if we go exile and come back to faction we lose our masters. <span style="color: #ff0000;">THE GAME MECHANICS ARE GOING TO CHANGE. SOE are changing the mechanics to give faction an advantage, they are changing the rule set. I play under the current rule set not the FUTURE rule set. If the rule set is changing then all things must be considered i.e. all the poeple who have worked hard for what they have.</span></p><p>You are also completely ignoring what Paikis is saying about why they exiled and I can completely sympthise with his reason. We too did not have 24 dedicated players. We play on Euro time and stayed faction for ages to recruit, we had 12-14 good enough players and the rest were not dedicated or skilled enough to play. And no, you can't get into VP with 12 decent players. Our ONLY chance of raiding end content was to merge with a guild that also played euro time and they were in exile. Under the CURRENT rule set them coming to faction would have meant them losing masters, we wouldn't so we went to exile. Now we have a great raid force.</p><p>After seeing Purity get into VP with a dedicated raid force no faction has the right to complain it's not doable. You have whined and whined and got your all classes - don't moan about us wanting to keep what we have worked hard for - for 7 months. </p><p>Not all exiles are there purely for all classes so stop using that as your argument.</p></blockquote>I can tell you this change is no different in my eyes than any other game mechanic change in this game including level locking being removed and an AA cap put it in place that completly made all of the hard work on Gear and AA points of said Lockers useless and they were not givin anything to replace it. (this is not about level locking it is purely an example of how people have suffered from mechanics changes before) I guess you could also say any class that has been nerfed to the point of people leaving game or rerolling could be included in this as well.. Im quite sure they all felt they where being wrongly punished for there time and effort put into there classes..As far as Im concerned keep your masters make it a faction whatever..But at the same time they never tossed any of the previous people effected by game mechanic changes a bone so why now?</blockquote>Not quite the same setting. Level Lockers didn't lose anything. They had to gain levels in order to use it again, but thats about it. (I know having to gain levels can be considered a loss but...what can ya do?) The reason I say this is, The Dev's didn't strip the titles or the AA of the level lockers. The level lockers had to level up, but they maintained what they had gained up until that point.This is more like when the Dev's redesigned the AA set up's, but gave everyone a free respec so people wouldn't be screwed over. The reason they did that, was because people had made certain choices in their AA set up's and the cost of resetting those ability's, simply because SoE decided to change how they operated, was not the fault of the customer. Which is basically what exiles are asking for. The ability to go back to a city, once, without the loss of masters.

[JOKULL]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JOKULL wrote:</cite>Not quite the same setting. Level Lockers didn't lose anything. They had to gain levels in order to use it again, but thats about it. (I know having to gain levels can be considered a loss but...what can ya do?)This is more like when the Dev's redesigned the AA set up's, but gave everyone a free respec so people wouldn't be screwed over. Which is basically what exiles are asking for. The ability to go back to a city, once, without the loss of masters.</blockquote>Hmmm they didnt lose anything??? masters and gear perhaps?? the same thing you are talking about lol ...Lockers thought they where getting the shaft (like exiles) Everyone else thought they where getting what they deserved for the choice they made ...Its all in the eyes of the beholder eh

[Niou]

<cite>JOKULL wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JOKULL wrote:</cite>Not quite the same setting. Level Lockers didn't lose anything. They had to gain levels in order to use it again, but thats about it. (I know having to gain levels can be considered a loss but...what can ya do?)This is more like when the Dev's redesigned the AA set up's, but gave everyone a free respec so people wouldn't be screwed over. Which is basically what exiles are asking for. The ability to go back to a city, once, without the loss of masters.</blockquote>Hmmm they didnt lose anything??? masters and gear perhaps?? the same thing you are talking about lol ...Lockers thought they where getting the shaft (like exiles) Everyone else thought they where getting what they deserved for the choice they made ...Its all in the eyes of the beholder eh</blockquote>maybe I missed it, but did the Dev's strip the lvl lockers of their masters and gear or something?

[JOKULL]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JOKULL wrote:</cite>maybe I missed it, but did the Dev's strip the lvl lockers of their masters and gear or something?</blockquote>Are you kidding me lol ..no they didnt strip them they made them level up meaning useless gear and masters they worked for... just like you say they are forcing you to lose yours (they are not forcing you out btw)  "<span class="postbody">I know having to gain levels can be considered a loss but...what can ya do?"  with this comment tho it seems you were one of the witch hunters so how does it feel to be the witch.</span>

[Niou]

<cite>JOKULL wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JOKULL wrote:</cite>maybe I missed it, but did the Dev's strip the lvl lockers of their masters and gear or something?</blockquote>Are you kidding me lol ..no they didnt strip them they made them level up meaning useless gear and masters they worked for... just like they are forcing you in your words</blockquote>I suppose that may be true. But we're not exactly comparing apples and oranges here are we? We're talking about...lets see, a lvl 15 character, lots of aa. Maybe...10 hours worth of work? and masters that cost maybe 1 plat?Comparing that to characters that have almost a year's worth of play time, and masters that cost between 40-60 plat. Again though...You kept those items. You used them to gain levels with the character. It's just not the same thing.That's why I said it was like the redesign of AA's. Where as you get to keep everything you'd attained until that point, lvl's, AA's, Gear, titles, and use those to progress forward. With AA's, it was a reconstruction of how the ability's themselves worked. That's why they offered the free respec. Because the choices that people had made, were made with the understanding of the rule set, must be taken into account when changing the rule set.Level Lockers were able to keep all they had attained and use it to progress forward in the game. Exiles are going to be stripped of what they have gained if they wish to progress forward. All because they made choices under a rule set that SoE is now changing.

[Elanjar]

haha I dont care what the exiles think about cities gettin all classes. I'm not exiled and I DONT WANT all the classes. I liked the extra difficulty. Clearing an entire expansion in the first month of release is boring to me. (And if all the "hardcore" raiders hadn't exiled the cities would have had their mythicals and be either cleared or a lot farther through VP by now). Anyway on the masters. Sorry guys you exiled. Part of betraying is losing your masters. Exiling is supposed to have a negative to it. Heres one of those negatives. Bummer. Get over it. You can clear VP on a weekly basis right. You'll have your masters lickity split im sure. At least your not stuck like us faction players that can barely adept3 out if we havent been playing since the dawn of the game.

[zorbdan]

*ding*ding*ding* I think we have a winner. That seems to be the best compromise but for some reason I don't think they will do it.This really is going to mark the end of exile though.I am not all that sad to see EZmode go but I do think 3 sides would make the game more interesting. It would be great if we could have 2 ezmode sides(cities) and 1 hard mode side(exile), which is what I think they were shooting for with exile in the first place. I just don't think exile will be a side at all after the expansion hits.

[Niou]

<cite>GrandMasterUb wrote:</cite><blockquote>haha I dont care what the exiles think about cities gettin all classes. I'm not exiled and I DONT WANT all the classes. I liked the extra difficulty. Clearing an entire expansion in the first month of release is boring to me. (And if all the "hardcore" raiders hadn't exiled the cities would have had their mythicals and be either cleared or a lot farther through VP by now). Anyway on the masters. Sorry guys you exiled. Part of betraying is losing your masters. Exiling is supposed to have a negative to it. Heres one of those negatives. Bummer. Get over it. You can clear VP on a weekly basis right. You'll have your masters lickity split im sure. At least your not stuck like us faction players that can barely adept3 out if we havent been playing since the dawn of the game.</blockquote>If you're not going to even think when you post, why do you continue to do so? You continually post the same thing's, over and over without adding anything to any conversation besides negativity. Most people posting here are at least thinking beyond their own blind hatred, I suggest you learn how to do so.For one, it took month's to clear all the content and gear up in order to just enter VP. Second, it took even longer to learn the encounters in VP to progress. We're only now clearing VP on a regular basis for the past couple of weeks, and the expansion has been out since November.Second, if you're having trouble outfitting yourself in Adept III's, you need to devote a bit more time to you're character. It's called harvesting and with it, the loams are free.Third, Even if VA or Grey Wolves had stayed in the cities, that doesn't mean you would have you're mythical by now. GW was never part of an alliance, if we had stayed and done all the content as a city, you would still have nothing to do with us, nor recieved help from us.Fourth, yes, we exiled on the understanding that we would not be coming back. Why would we do such a thing? We weighed the losses and gains to the decision and on the rule's set by SoE, decided on Exile. Those rules no longer apply, and just as SoE offered a free respec when it redesigned the rule set of its AA set up, they need to offer Exile a free entry back into the city without the loss of masters. Why? Because without the change in their rule set, exiles would never be returning to the cities as they are now.Before you start in on exiles returning to the cities, I suggest to ask anybody that knows anything about running a successful raid guild first. Recruiting is the number one priority and must be maintained throughout the guild's life. With the change, those exiling will be doing so for the FFA PvP, not for Raiding. A Raid guild needs Raiders, and because of SoE's change, we will no longer be able to attain any new recruits.

[JOKULL]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I suppose that may be true. But we're not exactly comparing apples and oranges here are we? <span style="color: #ff0000;">We're talking about...lets see, a lvl 15 character, lots of aa. Maybe...10 hours worth of work? and masters that cost maybe 1 plat?</span>Comparing that to characters that have almost a year's worth of play time, and masters that cost between 40-60 plat. Again though...You kept those items. You used them to gain levels with the character. It's just not the same thing.That's why I said it was like the redesign of AA's. Where as you get to keep everything you'd attained until that point, lvl's, AA's, Gear, titles, and use those to progress forward. With AA's, it was a reconstruction of how the ability's themselves worked. That's why they offered the free respec. Because the choices that people had made, were made with the understanding of the rule set, must be taken into account when changing the rule set.Level Lockers were able to keep all they had attained and use it to progress forward in the game. Exiles are going to be stripped of what they have gained if they wish to progress forward. All because they made choices under a rule set that SoE is now changing.</blockquote>I dont think the time and money spent is of any relevance really (money differs person to person what doesnt seem like much to you might be a ton to someone else. altho I could tell you numbers that would blow your mind when it comes to money spent on Locked toons lol) . It is still a player who spent time and money no matter what it was on a toon and losing what THEY feel THEY worked for. Im not trying to make this about level locking just an example of game mechanics being changed and players not being compensated for there loss when they are affected.

[Torrin]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Undacova@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Exiles should not be allowed to return with Masters, because the cities will lose theirs changing to a new class.</p><p>Exiles should be allowed PvP gear, without being able to update writs by killing other exile.</p><p>Exiles should have access to city type Insignias.</p><p>Exiles should remain the third faction they said they were with all the penalties associated with switching sides, just like the OTHER Factions.</p><p>Exiles said for months they exiled for the Free For All PvP, and that was not taken away from them.</p></blockquote>I rarely agree with you but I will here. To me this is the most logical choice to keep a kind of balance, at least on Venekor, that we have come to know. Destroying exile as a thrid faction will likely cause a mass exodus to the cities that will tilt the balance of numbers towards Freeport or Qeynos.Instead of having mass complaints of having too few targets, or always being outnumbered, leave exile as a third faction with the same benefits as the cities. Add guild halls to the list above and I see no downside for anyone in this change. Cities are happy, exiles are happy and we can go on our merry way of complaining about other game mechanics <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</blockquote>You guys should get guild halls too. In my opinion when a faction, be it Freeport, Exile, or Qeynos gets insignias, they should be neutral, and useable by all three factions to by their own class PvP gear. I love having three factions, but I played DAoC for 3 years, and it has kind of grown on me to have three factions.</blockquote>I don't think theres a single exile that would disagree with you. Although there are a few PvP items we'd like, we prefer the FFA PvP over them. Many, including me, only want Guild Halls.However, its looking more and more like Exiles will get the shaft here and not attain any aspects of city life, instead we'll be destroyed slowly. Hopefully we'll be able to keep our masters and return to the cities to provide targets from whichever city we choose. Instead of the majority quitting from having to lose all masters.</blockquote>So how many exiled guilds are there on Venekor?How many exileds are there on Venekor period?See here's the thing all the exileds touting about FFA PvP are forgetting;It's only Different from City PvP, if there are other Exileds to fight.There are I believe 4 exileds guilds on nagafen?  What if 3 of them went back to cities?That leaves 1 exiled guild, how will they argue "FFA PvP" then? Their PvP would be vs Qeynos & Freeport..Just like Qeynos would be vs Haven and Freeport, and Freeport vs Haven and Qeynos.  I have only witnessed exiled guilds fighting their own guildmembers when it was carnage brawl in Haven or duels in TS.If people leave this game just because of losing all their masters, then good riddance.  God forbid you gotta spend plat you got from farming RoK raids for months or have to actually go out and compete in PvP for harvest nodes to get the Rares to make your missing Spells / CAs.It seems every remotely large change always has "the sky is falling" people crying out.  Look at the change to swash's reach, for days all the chat channels were lit up with how much it sucked and how it was a swash's "class defining skill".  the whiners crying about it were the ones that used it as a crutch and quickly left / went to another class.. the ones that actually knew what the hell they were doing remained unchanged and unaffected by it.Now with this change look who is crying the loudest.. Exileds.  So which of the above 2 categories does that place you guys under? hrm.

[Elanjar]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GrandMasterUb wrote:</cite><blockquote>haha I dont care what the exiles think about cities gettin all classes. I'm not exiled and I DONT WANT all the classes. I liked the extra difficulty. Clearing an entire expansion in the first month of release is boring to me. (And if all the "hardcore" raiders hadn't exiled the cities would have had their mythicals and be either cleared or a lot farther through VP by now). Anyway on the masters. Sorry guys you exiled. Part of betraying is losing your masters. Exiling is supposed to have a negative to it. Heres one of those negatives. Bummer. Get over it. You can clear VP on a weekly basis right. You'll have your masters lickity split im sure. At least your not stuck like us faction players that can barely adept3 out if we havent been playing since the dawn of the game.</blockquote>If you're not going to even think when you post, why do you continue to do so? You continually post the same thing's, over and over without adding anything to any conversation besides negativity. Most people posting here are at least thinking beyond their own blind hatred, I suggest you learn how to do so.For one, it took month's to clear all the content and gear up in order to just enter VP. Second, it took even longer to learn the encounters in VP to progress. We're only now clearing VP on a regular basis for the past couple of weeks, and the expansion has been out since November.Second, if you're having trouble outfitting yourself in Adept III's, you need to devote a bit more time to you're character. It's called harvesting and with it, the loams are free.Third, Even if VA or Grey Wolves had stayed in the cities, that doesn't mean you would have you're mythical by now. GW was never part of an alliance, if we had stayed and done all the content as a city, you would still have nothing to do with us, nor recieved help from us.Fourth, yes, we exiled on the understanding that we would not be coming back. Why would we do such a thing? We weighed the losses and gains to the decision and on the rule's set by SoE, decided on Exile. Those rules no longer apply, and just as SoE offered a free respec when it redesigned the rule set of its AA set up, they need to offer Exile a free entry back into the city without the loss of masters. Why? Because without the change in their rule set, exiles would never be returning to the cities as they are now.Before you start in on exiles returning to the cities, I suggest to ask anybody that knows anything about running a successful raid guild first. Recruiting is the number one priority and must be maintained throughout the guild's life. With the change, those exiling will be doing so for the FFA PvP, not for Raiding. A Raid guild needs Raiders, and because of SoE's change, we will no longer be able to attain any new recruits.</blockquote>maybe you have time to harvest for 5 hours a day all week, but i at least have a RL where i have responsibilities and stuff. I've harvested for hours on end during the weekend and so far the only rare i've gotten is ONE incardine cluster.And yes i suppose I exagerated a bit on how fast RoK was cleared. I know some guilds on PvE servers (which i consider similar to exile) has been farming it for at least a month or more. I am aware of what it takes to be a successful raider. And in case you're wondering not only did a lot of guilds move, but a lot of solo players ditched guilds to go exile. Alot of factioned guilds were raiding lower T8 raids and then their players left to exile and are just now rebuilding. The system was borked in the first place because of exiling. I dont hate exiles (except for when they grief me while questing/harvesting). What i do hate is everyone that whined and is now ruining a game for many of us. EQ2 is one of the few true classic MMORPG's, its very difficult to find another that gives the same "feel". The feel that i enjoyed.

[Magius789]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GrandMasterUb wrote:</cite><blockquote>haha I dont care what the exiles think about cities gettin all classes. I'm not exiled and I DONT WANT all the classes. I liked the extra difficulty. Clearing an entire expansion in the first month of release is boring to me. (And if all the "hardcore" raiders hadn't exiled the cities would have had their mythicals and be either cleared or a lot farther through VP by now). Anyway on the masters. Sorry guys you exiled. Part of betraying is losing your masters. Exiling is supposed to have a negative to it. Heres one of those negatives. Bummer. Get over it. You can clear VP on a weekly basis right. You'll have your masters lickity split im sure. At least your not stuck like us faction players that can barely adept3 out if we havent been playing since the dawn of the game.</blockquote><b>If you're not going to even think when you post, why do you continue to do so? You continually post the same thing's, over and over without adding anything to any conversation besides negativity.</b> Most people posting here are at least thinking beyond their own blind hatred, I suggest you learn how to do so.For one, it took month's to clear all the content and gear up in order to just enter VP. Second, it took even longer to learn the encounters in VP to progress. We're only now clearing VP on a regular basis for the past couple of weeks, and the expansion has been out since November.Second, if you're having trouble outfitting yourself in Adept III's, you need to devote a bit more time to you're character. It's called harvesting and with it, the loams are free.Third, Even if VA or Grey Wolves had stayed in the cities, that doesn't mean you would have you're mythical by now. GW was never part of an alliance, if we had stayed and done all the content as a city, you would still have nothing to do with us, nor recieved help from us.Fourth, yes, we exiled on the understanding that we would not be coming back. Why would we do such a thing? We weighed the losses and gains to the decision and on the rule's set by SoE, decided on Exile. Those rules no longer apply, and just as SoE offered a free respec when it redesigned the rule set of its AA set up, they need to offer Exile a free entry back into the city without the loss of masters. Why? Because without the change in their rule set, exiles would never be returning to the cities as they are now.Before you start in on exiles returning to the cities, I suggest to ask anybody that knows anything about running a successful raid guild first. Recruiting is the number one priority and must be maintained throughout the guild's life. With the change, those exiling will be doing so for the FFA PvP, not for Raiding. A Raid guild needs Raiders, and because of SoE's change, we will no longer be able to attain any new recruits.</blockquote>A bit ironic coming from you don't ya think?

[Kiara]

Hey guys.  I know you're gonna PvP on the forums when you're not in game, and that's all good.Just do me a favour and ease up a bit on the baiting and trolling in this thread.  There's some valuable discussion happening and I don't want to have to lock it cause you guys can't get along.* hands out cookies *Just remember, forum PvP only has one winner <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Niou]

<cite>Torrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Undacova@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Exiles should not be allowed to return with Masters, because the cities will lose theirs changing to a new class.</p><p>Exiles should be allowed PvP gear, without being able to update writs by killing other exile.</p><p>Exiles should have access to city type Insignias.</p><p>Exiles should remain the third faction they said they were with all the penalties associated with switching sides, just like the OTHER Factions.</p><p>Exiles said for months they exiled for the Free For All PvP, and that was not taken away from them.</p></blockquote>I rarely agree with you but I will here. To me this is the most logical choice to keep a kind of balance, at least on Venekor, that we have come to know. Destroying exile as a thrid faction will likely cause a mass exodus to the cities that will tilt the balance of numbers towards Freeport or Qeynos.Instead of having mass complaints of having too few targets, or always being outnumbered, leave exile as a third faction with the same benefits as the cities. Add guild halls to the list above and I see no downside for anyone in this change. Cities are happy, exiles are happy and we can go on our merry way of complaining about other game mechanics <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</blockquote>You guys should get guild halls too. In my opinion when a faction, be it Freeport, Exile, or Qeynos gets insignias, they should be neutral, and useable by all three factions to by their own class PvP gear. I love having three factions, but I played DAoC for 3 years, and it has kind of grown on me to have three factions.</blockquote>I don't think theres a single exile that would disagree with you. Although there are a few PvP items we'd like, we prefer the FFA PvP over them. Many, including me, only want Guild Halls.However, its looking more and more like Exiles will get the shaft here and not attain any aspects of city life, instead we'll be destroyed slowly. Hopefully we'll be able to keep our masters and return to the cities to provide targets from whichever city we choose. Instead of the majority quitting from having to lose all masters.</blockquote>So how many exiled guilds are there on Venekor?How many exileds are there on Venekor period?See here's the thing all the exileds touting about FFA PvP are forgetting;It's only Different from City PvP, if there are other Exileds to fight.There are I believe 4 exileds guilds on nagafen? What if 3 of them went back to cities?That leaves 1 exiled guild, how will they argue "FFA PvP" then? Their PvP would be vs Qeynos & Freeport..Just like Qeynos would be vs Haven and Freeport, and Freeport vs Haven and Qeynos. I have only witnessed exiled guilds fighting their own guildmembers when it was carnage brawl in Haven or duels in TS.If people leave this game just because of losing all their masters, then good riddance. God forbid you gotta spend plat you got from farming RoK raids for months or have to actually go out and compete in PvP for harvest nodes to get the Rares to make your missing Spells / CAs.It seems every remotely large change always has "the sky is falling" people crying out. Look at the change to swash's reach, for days all the chat channels were lit up with how much it sucked and how it was a swash's "class defining skill". the whiners crying about it were the ones that used it as a crutch and quickly left / went to another class.. the ones that actually knew what the hell they were doing remained unchanged and unaffected by it.Now with this change look who is crying the loudest.. Exileds. So which of the above 2 categories does that place you guys under? hrm.</blockquote>I don't think you really understand how much plat you're talking about spending to get masters back. Even IF all of my masters happend to be on sale, which these have taken almost an entire year to gather, and there hasnt been a single one on sale for months; The masters are T8, they cost between 40-60p. That's....760 plat for my 19 masters. Assuming their all set at the lowest price. There are people with more masters than I.The fact isn't about the cost though, its about the fact that exiled should not have to pay for the change in structure of the game.When SoE redesigned the AA lines, they offered a free respec, why? because people had committed to certain lines under the rules set up by SoE. Those lines were changed by SoE, reconstructing the rules. Because it's unfair to do so, seeing as the players were merely following the rules of the game. SoE allowed the respec. I use this example quite a bit, because its a key referance to the fact that SoE has changed entire systems before, and as such allowed people a means to recover because it was not something they could have forseen.Edit because I forgot to answer some of you're earlier comments.There is 1 Raid Exile Guild on Venekor with 61 accounts, there are a couple other guilds I believe made up of low lvl's.Also, you seem to be assuming Exiles don't pvp. That may be true on you're server, but on Venekor VA is one of the few guilds on the server that constantly has people out PvPing. So their loss would be felt for sure.

[Darkor]

<cite>Kiara wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just remember, forum PvP only has one winner <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>And that is never me, sadly lol

[Paikis]

<cite>JOKULL wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont think the time and money spent is of any relevance really (money differs person to person what doesnt seem like much to you might be a ton to someone else. altho I could tell you numbers that would blow your mind when it comes to money spent on Locked toons lol) . It is still a player who spent time and money no matter what it was on a toon and losing what THEY feel THEY worked for. Im not trying to make this about level locking just an example of game mechanics being changed and players not being compensated for there loss when they are affected.</blockquote>If there was any realistic chance of ever getting those masters back on venekor I wouldn't complain so much. The plain fact of the matter though, is that there are 5 troubies in VA. 3 are mains. There are also exactly 4 masters on the broker for us. I personally have 23 Masters. Quite a few of which are T6-T7 masters which are almost impossible to get again, even with a high population. THAT is my complaint, and that is my only complaint.

[JOKULL]

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JOKULL wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont think the time and money spent is of any relevance really (money differs person to person what doesnt seem like much to you might be a ton to someone else. altho I could tell you numbers that would blow your mind when it comes to money spent on Locked toons lol) . It is still a player who spent time and money no matter what it was on a toon and losing what THEY feel THEY worked for. Im not trying to make this about level locking just an example of game mechanics being changed and players not being compensated for there loss when they are affected.</blockquote>If there was any realistic chance of ever getting those masters back on venekor I wouldn't complain so much. The plain fact of the matter though, is that there are 5 troubies in VA. 3 are mains. There are also exactly 4 masters on the broker for us. I personally have 23 Masters. Quite a few of which are T6-T7 masters which are almost impossible to get again, even with a high population. THAT is my complaint, and that is my only complaint.</blockquote>Yea for sure I can understand what your saying and you are right it does suck and maybe just maybe they will change their tactic this time but in the past no one has realy been compensated for a change of this magnitude..They are trying to fix the server on a whole and not worried as much about loss from an individual standpoint (not saying its right) On a side note the Test update notes are up.<span class="postbody"><p><b>PLAYER VS PLAYER</b> </p> <ul><li>You can now betray and play the good classes in the evil cities and the evil classes in the good cities. In other words you can have a templar in Freeport or a brigand in Qeynos.</li><li>Hypnosis can no longer be canceled by the target of the spell.</li><li>It should now be possible to cure charm spells cast by hostile players.</li></ul> </span>

[Erronn]

<p>There's also this little change on test for PVP:</p><p>Certain spells like Rescue which are common to the classes will no longer be reset while betraying.</p><p>So some classes can keep some masters! Bonus! /rolleyes</p>

[zorbdan]

Ok I am a bit noobish about exiling, played since launch but never exiled ;p. Anyway here is the question. When you go from exiled to being Q or FP you lose all your spells? I thought the loss of spells only occurred when you go exile or change class during the process of returning? If people are just returning to a side from exile why do they lose all spells?Why can't they just make it so if you don't change classes you don't lose your spells. Sorry I am kinda simple and zen that way. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Niou]

<cite>zorbdan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok I am a bit noobish about exiling, played since launch but never exiled ;p. Anyway here is the question. When you go from exiled to being Q or FP you lose all your spells? I thought the loss of spells only occurred when you go exile or change class during the process of returning? If people are just returning to a side from exile why do they lose all spells?<b>Why can't they just make it so if you don't change classes you don't lose your spells. Sorry I am kinda simple and zen that way.</b> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>You lose titles when going from a city to exile, you lose spells when going from exile to a city.That'd be the easiest way to do it right, the other way which would require more coding would be a one time transfer of exiles back to cities without the loss of masters.Yet another way, with less coding I expect, would simply be to suspend the loss of masters system for a certain period of time.

[Wilde_Night]

<p>According to the Developer (Rothgar), the T3 Guild Halls have no faction (city alignment) requirement:</p><p><cite>Zexxii wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>i have a level 75 guild in qeynos, but i live in exile, will i be able to return to qeynos, buy a guild hall, and use it in exile?  will all my friends be able to use it from exile as well?</blockquote><p>The T3 guild halls do not require faction to purchase.  T1 and T2 guild halls only require someone with the appropriate faction to purchase them, just like a regular house.  But once its purchased anyone can come and go regardless of faction.Keep in mind that you do not lose the cost of your amenities when you upgrade guild halls.  This allows you to start out in a smaller hall, start buying amenities and then upgrade later when you have the means.  I will also try to make it so you don't lose the entire purchase price of the hall either.  I think we discussed giving back 75% of the purchase price of your old hall.</p><p>- Rothgar</p><p>So Exiled guilds have access to the T3 Halls.  It is the T1 and T2 ones that they have no version of.</p>

[Warr]

<p>If that is indeed true, then this will shut up and bring and end to like 5 threads at once. lol. That's huge.</p><p>So if a dev could come out and flat out say, "Exiles can purchase a T3 Guild hall and use it just like everyone else." Then all this bickering could stop.</p>

[Lodor]

<p>In all honesty they should not allow people to keep their masters with this change. Exile is not changing at all from what it currently is so there is no "forcing" people to leave it. Now if they were to force people out then I would understand the master issue people are posting about here, but as it is there is 0 reason to let people keep them.</p><p> And if they do allow exiles to keep them there will be a big crap storm where people that have lost masters in the past will want them refunded also. I know i lost 18 on my brigand and 11 on my ranger. So if the exiles posting here get what they want I will personally petition all the way up the GM chain till I got refunded lost spells also, and I know I would not be the only one.</p><p>For the good of the game they should not give in the what some these exiles are posting for in this thread unless they visible force people out of exile. It would only give SoE more headaches then its worth.</p>

[penebelle]

Honestly I think this is happening BECAUSE three Qeynos guild's on Nagafen are in VP right now, and Qeynos is getting Mythicals.  Everyone knows the Devs hate Faction, especially Q's haha...  they just stealing the thunder before everyone is doing it.It's gonna be easy-mode sure... fine, who cares.  Exile was easy-mode before, shrug I doubt any exiles were overcome with guilt.  I'm sure not gonna worry about the absolute destruction of everything I've worked for if Faction raiding becomes easy-mode.  I'm just gonna smile and take fat loots.  Thank god at least I got to VP as Q, was an accomplishment that makes a difference to me, but this change isn't gonna make that feeling of accomplishment go away.

[Bonez005]

<cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Since cities will now be getting all classes, it is time to change the exiled faction "back" to what it was intended to be. A rest stop between betraying from one alignment to the other. </p><p>Everything aside from banker and mender should be removed from Haven, no crafting stations, broker, guild register, merchants, etc.</p><p>Especially no guild halls or PVP gear merchants.</p></blockquote><p> Couldn't agree more! Being an exile should have NO benefits... they never should have had any benefits PERIOD. These exiles crying just makes me laugh. "Dedication", "Loyalty". You weren't dedicated nor loyal... you saw an exploit and made a dash for it without thinking of future consequences.</p><p> Perhaps you thought you were being innovative, but Exile was never meant to be beneficial.</p><p> If SOE buys into these threats of losing the exile population to WAR (/yawn) I will be surprised.</p><p> Oh I'd like to add: The cries about SOE changing the structure of the game forcing exiles to choose AND pay the consequences holds NO value here whastoever. Nothing at all was mentioned about changing the structure of exiles. You can still do the exact same thing you've been doing... This update isn't for you and I play an imaginary violin in mock sympathy (I truly do). Maybe next time you all will think hard on your choice before clicking through all the WARNING confirmation boxes.</p>

[JOKULL]

<cite>Bonez005 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>If SOE buys into these threats of losing the exile population to WAR (/yawn) I will be surprised.</blockquote>They will lose some they will gain some I'm sure.. but I think they are about to call some bluffs.

[Khrunk]

<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Khrunk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Are you telling me that you don't have 24 players to put a raid together? because you only need 24 players to get into VP, heck you can even clear it with 24 players. As for your gear, all I can say is LOL. I've seen it, it'll be easily replaceable.</p><p>My question is this, Why shouldn't we get to keep our masters? What do you lose if we get to keep them? Does all of Qeynos get a plat or two for every exile that loses their masters?</p><p>You people have spent forever crying that its not fair that we get to raid with all classes and asking for them for yourselves. You saw what we had, but you ignored what we had to give up to get it. You accused us of playing in 'easy mode' and yet the whole time you were crying out to be given 'easier mode'... which you now have. And now you don't want us to keep our masters because it'll do what...? Oh thats right, it'll keep us happy. Those masters cannot be replaced on Venekor. The T6/T7 ancients especially.</p><p>I've said you don't need all classes to raid and I stand by that, what I have never said is that I don't want you to have all classes. I've been for that right from the start.</p></blockquote><p>If it was as simple as having 24 players, you wouldn't have exiled. Now would you? When the server was full staff, you guys couldn't do it. But you are insulting Qeynos after losing so many guilds, and so many people? If YOU didn't need all classes, you would have joined other dedicated guilds and been in VP. You couldn't do it until you had access to all classes. Heck, when Grey Wolves were being honest the posted and update on how big of a difference it did make once they got a few key classes from the Freep side. Now all of a sudden it didn't matter? COME ON!!</p><p>You shouldn't be able to keep your masters, because we lose our masters. I'm losing three masters on my Ranger when I exile to Assassin. Should I be able to get those back since you want to keep yours?</p></blockquote>Are you dense or just plain stupid? Paikis came from the same alliance i came from, and when you lose the vast majority of dedicated raiders and guildies to raid, you cant raid. Hell we didnt even have 24 people to raid. A good chunk of the raiders went to aoc and the other half decided to raid in their own guild. Even before they left we had the exact same problem with the lackeys that sucked us dry. People crying cause they died like 5 times to name or if we spent more than 30 minutes pulling a mob trying to learn it. Its not possible to raid anything hard when you have 12 pulling, trying to pick up slack for the other 12 that don't care enough to get the mission done. I know you know how it is cause you've raided right, or you just one of those people talking bleep out your bleep.The only time this server was full staff was well before eof came into existance, but being the big brain you are, you already knew that. Odvisiouly if you needed all classes to be in vp that means purity must've been a fluke right. Took them what 20 pulls to kill Druusk, when you and everyone on the faction side said it couldn't be done and was no way possible. </blockquote>First of all, I NEVER said it wasn't possible to get into VP. I said it wasn't possible to get into VP in a reasonable amount of time. They still havn't cleared VP yet. And Venekor Freeps didn't lose near as many guilds, or people as Venekore Qs. You still had a lot of dedicated raiders, yet you left. It took Venekor Qs months to figure out if we were ever going to have dedicated raiders to raid. Unlike you guys, we didn't take the easy road the second it got hard. We've endured, and you give us hell for it, and you couldn't endure?</blockquote>Really since you seem to know so much about the people i raided with would you like to name some of them please. You have no clue what happened in my situation and you basing a false claim on it is a waste of time only to promote your anti-exile feelings.

[swedago]

<p>I am very happy to see something making sense on the PvP servers... </p><p> Exiles were NEVER intended to be a permanent faction.  Exile was a way-station to move on to betrayal and join a city.</p><p>If you joined Exile to raid..  Go to a blue server.</p><p>If you joined Exile to FFA PvP (been hearing this since the 1st day Exile came out and ruined PvP)...  Stay there.  However, the truth will finally be apparent.  Hordes of Exiles will come to the cities, lose their titles, their masters, and their bragging rights.</p><p> Personally I think the whole all classes in any city is a load of BS (The Living Legacy for PvPers lol), but if the Exiles become the nothings they should have been..  Great!</p>

[Sightless]

<p>Khrunk</p><p>I'm not being anti-exile, you're the one promoting mass exodus. I'm promoting they give exiles PvP armor, city type signets, guild housing, et cetera. I'm fighting to keep a third faction viable. /shame</p>

[Khrunk]

Thats what i thought, you have no clue as to peoples situation and events that unfolded prior to them going exile. Thank you for wasting forum space.

[Lodor]

He might not khrunk but others that have posted on this thread know about the fp allience and how it went through tons of raid leaders in a short time because people were not showing up ever. Some of those people are even back ingame it seems lately since i have killed a few of them out in RoK zones on their alts.

[Sightless]

<cite>Khrunk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thats what i thought, you have no clue as to peoples situation and events that unfolded prior to them going exile. Thank you for wasting forum space.</blockquote><p>Bottom line. You went to exile without losing Masters and reaped the benefits. You SHOULD NOT come back to the cities without losing your Masters on top of reaping additional rewards. You chose your path, and ditched your faction for a new one.</p><p><cite>Lodor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>He might not khrunk but others that have posted on this thread know about the fp allience and how it went through tons of raid leaders in a short time because people were not showing up ever. Some of those people are even back ingame it seems lately since i have killed a few of them out in RoK zones on their alts.</blockquote>Yeah Cheese, I've heard quite a few things from various ex-freeps who came to Qeynos, but everyone has a different perspective on what exactly happened. But one fact remains he can not refute. Freeport Venekor still has far more people than Qeynos Venekor. He left because they lost some leaders, try losing all of your top guilds Khrunk.

[Arcanias]

<p>My first vote would be to just make Haven a third faction with the same pvp gear and signets as Qs and Freeps.  Three factions meens more pvp for everyone!!!  TBH, I joined exile for the ffa pvp and after all this is a <u>pvp</u> server.  </p><p>If that can't happen then I would vote for a limited amnesty period for exiles.  This would also include amnesty for Qs and Freeps to change factions and still retain their master 1s provided that they didn't change their class. </p><p> Just my two cents.</p>

[Crimson Lord]

I exiled cause I wanted to see end game content, Qeynos had a few dedicated players but never enough to get anywhere. Purity I think once this update comes around will be the first and probably the ONLY to clear vp. They by far are the most dedicated in all of qeynos. As for the masters and bs, don't bother me I didn't think I'd like the FFA pvp but I do. So I'll be staying exile with my guildmates, so take advantage of this update cities cause i welcome the challenge.But i will tell you guys one thing if after you recieve your silver platter of everything POSSIBLE to finish raid content and you can't do it I am gonna laugh my f**king @$$ off

[Niou]

You're responses are outdated and vindictive, its honestly....just sad. Also, you really think exiles will be nothing even if they return to the cities? You're talking about the most successful raid guilds to date, they don't just fall over dead because their in a city.Also, try reading a few posts and educating yourself on the dynamic's of raid guild set up's and the mechanics of the game before you start running you're mouth's like someone that's simply bitter at their own failures.PS: Yes, nice "exploit" when SoE themselves put the ability to register guilds in haven. Honestly, some kids.

[Fin]

<cite>Vize wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>As to the "Exile hate" we've had to compete with them with weaker gear and half the classes for a couple years now. Yeah, I think I'll hate them a bit, thats like having somone beat you silly for 2 years, gloating about it, and then as soon as you can stand up to them, they want to be your best bud. Sure, they can come back to the city, I'm sure alot will, but I don't belive that SoE should let them move once and keep their skills. What kind of BS is that? I doubt that SoE would do this but really now? Why on earth would SoE throw you a freebie? What on earth have you done that would warrant such a reward? I betrayed my Fury to Warden to help my guild, I payed for my spells all over again out of my own pocket. Does that mean I should shake SoE down for a refund on the plat I spent?</p></blockquote> I stinks your memory aint so good. While on your low pop server, where other classes besides preds and rogues really struggled to get tokens, those on naggy had full suits of pvp gear. Even the botts had full sets. Pvp gear was better than anything we could get in raid zones right up until mythicals were equipped and then the vp loot was revamped. Thats 6 months not 24. The difference is the exiles didnt complain about pvp gear because we made a conscious choice to exile. When we got owned by the superior gear we took it in stride.

[Vincente]

<cite>Isper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vize wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>As to the "Exile hate" we've had to compete with them with weaker gear and half the classes for a couple years now. Yeah, I think I'll hate them a bit, thats like having somone beat you silly for 2 years, gloating about it, and then as soon as you can stand up to them, they want to be your best bud. Sure, they can come back to the city, I'm sure alot will, but I don't belive that SoE should let them move once and keep their skills. What kind of BS is that? I doubt that SoE would do this but really now? Why on earth would SoE throw you a freebie? What on earth have you done that would warrant such a reward? I betrayed my Fury to Warden to help my guild, I payed for my spells all over again out of my own pocket. Does that mean I should shake SoE down for a refund on the plat I spent?</p></blockquote> I stinks your memory aint so good. While on your low pop server, where other classes besides preds and rogues really struggled to get tokens, those on naggy had full suits of pvp gear. Even the botts had full sets. Pvp gear was better than anything we could get in raid zones right up until mythicals were equipped and then the vp loot was revamped. Thats 6 months not 24. The difference is the exiles didnt complain about pvp gear because we made a conscious choice to exile. When we got owned by the superior gear we took it in stride.</blockquote><p>You've attacked part of my quote and completely ignored the other half of it. My point wasn't that I hate all exiles ( I hate the majority) It's that I completely disagree with those that want to return being allowed to keep their spells. </p><p>Also,</p><p>There were two expansions before Rise of Kunark, in Kingdom of sky, I distinctly remember full sets of fabled gear wearing Den of madness members sitting in raid formation, pillaging groups of MC wearing City aligned members for a couple months before the City guilds started kicking it into gear and getting to deathtoll. During EoF much of the same until city members started getting their pvp gear and raiding a bit more.</p><p> I haven't played in a while due to my computer being stupid and I had only just recently made another character on Naggy, so I'm not entirely sure as to the exposition of that server so I'm not making any assumptions there... Well, I'll make one assumption, I'm sure some of the exiled guild members would like to return to the cities and keep their spells. Which leads me to my third point.</p><p>  My point  is that on Venekor VA is alot farther ahead than either City faction as far as raiding goes, they've gotten alot of use out of their time in exile. But now that the variables are changing some may want to come back (not targeting anyone specifically, just saying in general.) The little button you clicked at the end of the betrayal quest, the one were you have to type in your name. Remember that? Did you read what it said? It said something along the lines of "when you complete the betrayal quest and join another city you will loose all your spells." What part of that doesn't make sense? It made perfect sense to me.</p><p> My point isnt "I hate exiles" it's "exiles get to play by the rules, just like everyone else."</p>

[Bonez005]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're responses are outdated and vindictive, its honestly....just sad. Also, you really think exiles will be nothing even if they return to the cities? You're talking about the most successful raid guilds to date, they don't just fall over dead because their in a city.Also, try reading a few posts and educating yourself on the dynamic's of raid guild set up's and the mechanics of the game before you start running you're mouth's like someone that's simply bitter at their own failures.PS: Yes, nice "exploit" when SoE themselves put the ability to register guilds in haven. Honestly, some kids.</blockquote><p>Yes it is a very nice exploit (exiles having a benefit over cities???) that SOE themselves are fixing next LU.</p><p>Much respect to Onyx for staying Exiled.. that is dedication.</p>

[Kiara]

You guys will probably notice that I've merged several threads into this one.All the conversations are essentially the same. Please try to keep all the related discussion in the same thread.Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Odawnus Haste]

<cite>Bonez005 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're responses are outdated and vindictive, its honestly....just sad. Also, you really think exiles will be nothing even if they return to the cities? You're talking about the most successful raid guilds to date, they don't just fall over dead because their in a city.Also, try reading a few posts and educating yourself on the dynamic's of raid guild set up's and the mechanics of the game before you start running you're mouth's like someone that's simply bitter at their own failures.PS: Yes, nice "exploit" when SoE themselves put the ability to register guilds in haven. Honestly, some kids.</blockquote><p>Yes it is a very nice exploit (exiles having a benefit over cities???) that SOE themselves are fixing next LU.</p><p>Much respect to Onyx for staying Exiled.. that is dedication.</p></blockquote>There is no dedication or loyalty to the exile faction. If your not wearing an Onyx tag your simply the enemy. There is alot of exile hate going, and I say hate because you guys act like we don't have city alts that are in city guilds but since we have a char in exile we have some how ruin your gameplay. Some of us actually play every aspect of the game not just crying about what other ppl are doing, have done, and will do.

[zorbdan]

*News Flash* Qeynos loses all templars and illusionists to freeport! We also have a heart warming story about a lone brigand that wants to be "good" for a change. Details at 11pm.