Help Save the Berzerker!!!!!!!

[Supav]

Recently, I betrayed my Guardian to a Berzeker just to check out the class and see what its all about and I have begun to see why so many players that i talk to have either betrayed to guard or have very negative things to say about the class. Had I been a berzerker initially, it may not stand out so much, but after being a guard for so long, I have to say that the berzerker class seems somewhat underpowered, especially in 1 group settings and I don't think that the two classes are at all balanced.For one, the Guardian has far more durability than a zerker, which I can understand to an extent considering the purposes for the two classes I suppose; however, I don't really see much of a trade off in terms of DPS or aggro control or anything really. As a berzerker, you really are just given more aoe's, but what good is that if ur constantly struggling to keep aggro of the one target that your on? Zerkers are basically forced to hold aggro w/ taunts and DPS and tbh.... w/o something the equivilant of Mar and Slaughter, the dps on a single target isn't that much more than a guard if at all. On top of that there really is NO equivalent to Reinforcement, or Sentry Watch, or Stone Sphere to help your grp out if u DO lose aggro, so if u do lose it, ur thrust into this constant battle of trying to save ur groupmate's life w/o the use of a snap aggro or anything other than ur one little intercept, which renders you fairly inneffective as an instance tank in that regard.I propose two solutions that I think would balance the classes out w/o making either class significantly overpowered:1) Eradicate the ridiculously high mana cost of Adrenaline. Tower of Stone doesn't eat all ur mana while ur fighting... why should Adrenaline? Who cares if your alive if the mobs aren't hitting you b/c u don't have any mana to taunt or dps? Granted Tower of Stone eats ur shield, but thats really more of an annoyance than a penalty and is even that really neccessary at this stage of the game anyhow when u think about it?2) Give them an answer to Reinforcement/Holy Ground/Peel etc. Granted if you have ur mythical, u finally get a hate spot increase to Insolence but the majority of the populations berzerkers are not mythicalled so what about them? I propose a CA that acts something LIKE Reinforcement, yet slightly different. Call it "Unbridled Fury" or something clever, and make it 'On successful melee attack this spell will cast Unbridled Fury on target of attack. Increases threat priority of target by 1 position. Grants a total of 5 triggers of the spell.' and put it on a 3min recast timer. Now instead of it lasting for a specified duration, it has a specific number of triggers, and that includes 1 trigger for any mob hit when aoe's are used. Since it is only 5 triggers, if u are fighting multiple mobs, it will run out faster if u aoe, however it is still useful on single target encounters to help the zerker out in an emergency.Anyhow, that is just my opinion and proposed ideas on what might be a good solution to the problem and would still keep the spirit of what a berzerker is supposed to be intact w/o creating an unbalance in the other direction.

[tikasa]

<p>Zerks have been trying to get fixed for a VERY long time ......   SK's are further away from Gaurds then Zerks are.   Gaurds are the #1 tank in any situation.   No other tank has a remote chance to tank if a Guard is available.</p><p>My boyfriend offered to mentor his fabled Zerk from 80 to tank a raid against Venekor in CT.   The raid chose a lvl 57 Gaurdian in mostly legendary and lower equipment.  No matter how balanced they can make tanks  .. it will take a VERY long time before anyone wants a tank other then a Gaurdian... habit is hard to break.</p>

[LygerT]

guardian is just overpowered, berserker is not that bad off of a class. problem is everyone sees the betrayals and all the zerks moaning and think we are a broken class, so the people are the ones to blame for people beginning to avoid using berserkers, not the class.

[Bremer]

<cite>Supavog@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I propose a CA that acts something LIKE Reinforcement, yet slightly different. Call it "Unbridled Fury" or something clever, and make it 'On successful melee attack this spell will cast Unbridled Fury on target of attack. Increases threat priority of target by 1 position. Grants a total of 5 triggers of the spell.' and put it on a 3min recast timer. Now instead of it lasting for a specified duration, it has a specific number of triggers, and that includes 1 trigger for any mob hit when aoe's are used. Since it is only 5 triggers, if u are fighting multiple mobs, it will run out faster if u aoe, however it is still useful on single target encounters to help the zerker out in an emergency.</blockquote>Sorry, but that idea sucks. As offensive Warrior Beserkers should have noticable better snap aggro than a defensive. What else would be the point of an offensive tank if not better tools for hate gain.

[ZerkerDwarf]

<p>What's the difference between a guard and a zerker? Guard has better survivabilty and aggro snap. Nothing else. A guard is inferior to a zerker in nothing. Same single target dps / aggro hold. A guardian with 40% AE auto attack from AA is more a berserker than a berserker without that spec.</p><p>Adrenaline is semijunk. Is it working at all? - Except the mana drain?</p><p>Open Wounds. What's the point of it with the mythical clicky "Open Wounds"? Or - what's the point of the clicky one with OW?</p><p>The AE CAs are almost totally useless. Especially in multiple mob encounters. Using them is a waste of dps/aggro since they suppress precious AE autoattacks (agi line). The only situation when I use an AE is when I start to cast it one second before I bump into a group of heroics to knock them out. Give all AEs at least a casting time of 0.5s to place them inbetween autoattacks without wasting dps.</p><p>What the heck is the sense of that hp reg? Never figured out. It may help in 1% off all solo fights (turn it into something useful in PvE, such as a little mana reg, immunity trigger of stiffle, stun, root, fear). A berserking warrior can not or less be stiffled, stunned, rooted or feared. Or make that hp reg noticable, such as 400 per tick.</p><p>If SOE thinks berserkers are not broken, than add a loading screen "Did you know" to make the EQ2 community to change their mind.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>our AEs are useful because autos do not reach very far or behind us.</p><p>if you think adrenaline is junk, i have no idea what to say. </p><p>i agree with the open wounds statement, we should have gotten something to replace it if they were just going to throw it on our mythical.</p><p>hp regen i also agree with, it was a stupid idea from the start and should be dumped.</p><p>so i only half agree with you, but by continuing to say we're broken, you know that will only turn us into an abstinent class like shadowknights right? all you are doing is hurting the others who still play the class and enjoy it, because it is far from broken. </p>

[Elanjar]

I think adrenaline is awesome. All I'd want there is maybe some AA enhancements somewhere in the future (but im also perfectly happy with it as is).Open wounds is fine, prob shouldnt change it cause if they raise the lvl cap again in the future the mythical will become obsolete.Definitely need a snap agro. As an "offensive tank" I think something more along the lines of one big hate position increase is more in the correct realm than a reinforcements, but i'd be happy with either.HP regen doesnt help me EVER. Even solo questing it doesnt help. I've done the same zone quests with the regen buffs and without them. guess what no difference. I think a replenishing ward (vs physical dmg perhaps) idea thats been tossed around would be better. Add slightly more survivability (which would be in line with the fact that were a tank not a scout), and not be 100% useless. Seems berserker like to me, kinda like shrugging off damage cause were [Removed for Content] type thing.....dont know what they'd change the raidwide to though

[aias]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>our AEs are useful because autos do not reach very far or behind us.</p><p> <span style="color: #ff9900;">Could be more useful if the cast times were faster.</span></p><p>if you think adrenaline is junk, i have no idea what to say. </p><p> <span style="color: #ff9900;">It's not junk but is illogical.  Why have guaranteed mana drain when u don't have guaranteed adrenaline. </span></p><p>i agree with the open wounds statement, we should have gotten something to replace it if they were just going to throw it on our mythical.</p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Agree.</span></p><p>hp regen i also agree with, it was a stupid idea from the start and should be dumped.</p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Just give back the HP buff we had in t5!  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></span></p><p>so i only half agree with you, but by continuing to say we're broken, you know that will only turn us into an abstinent class like shadowknights right? all you are doing is hurting the others who still play the class and enjoy it, because it is far from broken. </p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Not broken, but obsolete would be appropriate.  There's no way around it, the class need a snap aggro spell or CA.  The  recent mythical change is insufficient.  Berserkers need some tweaks & changes to make them relevant with respect to current game mechanics & content.</span></p></blockquote>

[LygerT]

we're only a few months away from the next expansion, asking for even small scale changes when we have no clue what's in store for us isn't going to accomplish anything right now. all i can do is say sit back and wait and hope the devs give us either the AE content we asked for or better overall tank class balance.

[aias]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>we're only a few months away from the next expansion, asking for even small scale changes when we have no clue what's in store for us isn't going to accomplish anything right now. all i can do is say sit back and wait and hope the devs give us either the AE content we asked for or better overall tank class balance. </blockquote>It doesn't hurt to discuss issues.  That's the whole point of the forums.  If anything, it will give devs a chance to see what we think as a playerbase.

[Slayer505]

<p>I think the main problem people like the OP have is that you really can't play a Berserker like a Guardian.  Berserkers require a very aggressive form of tanking.  We are the offensive tank.  If you're trying to play your Berserker like a Guardian using a fully defensive set up and running in D-stance all the time, I can see where you'd have trouble.  Holding aggro against halfway competent DPSers in D-stance is almost impossible.  On the other hand, with diminishing returns being what they are, there is a minimal difference (for me at least) in survivability between O-stance and D-stance with full MT raid buffs- like 2-3% contested avoidance and maybe 1-2% mit.  Don't forget that your uncontested avoidance is not effected by your stances and since that's the most effective avoidance against epics... well, you see where I'm going with this.</p><p>Aggro generation is NOT a problem for a properly played Berserker.  We have a very easy time <i>holding </i>aggro.  Our main problem is snap aggro.  Until the Mythical changes we had no snap aggro other then Rescue.  This was never a huge problem for me since I'm MT, and thus I almost never have to pick up a mob fast unless I died and am ready to get back in the fight.  It's a huge problem for OT Berserkers though who would need to pick up a rampaging mob pretty fast if the MT goes down.</p><p>To the OP, play around with the class some more and try and be more aggressive and you may just find yourself enjoying it.  I, for one, have never had class envy towards Guardians.  The highly defensive Guardian type tanking seems incredibly boring to me.  Play your Berserker like a Berserker and not a Guardian and you'll have a lot more fun and be much more successful.  Do Guardians have an easier time tanking a lot of things?  Sure.  Do I doubt I can tank anything a Guardian can?  Not at all.  You just have to realize they're two different classes and require two different play styles.</p>

[epyon333]

<cite>ZerkerDwarf wrote</cite> <blockquote><p>The AE CAs are almost totally useless. Especially in multiple mob encounters. Using them is a waste of dps/aggro since they suppress precious AE autoattacks (agi line). The only situation when I use an AE is when I start to cast it one second before I bump into a group of heroics to knock them out. Give all AEs at least a casting time of 0.5s to place them inbetween autoattacks without wasting dps.</p></blockquote><p>i totally disagree.  yeah there a little slow but wouldnt that because there AEs.  they get more effective the more mobs you hitting.  they are only a waste if your using them agaisnt a solo mob.</p>

[epyon333]

<cite>Karsgaar@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think the main problem people like the OP have is that you really can't play a Berserker like a Guardian.  Berserkers require a very aggressive form of tanking.  We are the offensive tank.  If you're trying to play your Berserker like a Guardian using a fully defensive set up and running in D-stance all the time, I can see where you'd have trouble.  Holding aggro against halfway competent DPSers in D-stance is almost impossible.  On the other hand, with diminishing returns being what they are, there is a minimal difference (for me at least) in survivability between O-stance and D-stance with full MT raid buffs- like 2-3% contested avoidance and maybe 1-2% mit.  Don't forget that your uncontested avoidance is not effected by your stances and since that's the most effective avoidance against epics... well, you see where I'm going with this.</p><p>Aggro generation is NOT a problem for a properly played Berserker.  We have a very easy time <i>holding </i>aggro.  Our main problem is snap aggro.  Until the Mythical changes we had no snap aggro other then Rescue.  This was never a huge problem for me since I'm MT, and thus I almost never have to pick up a mob fast unless I died and am ready to get back in the fight.  It's a huge problem for OT Berserkers though who would need to pick up a rampaging mob pretty fast if the MT goes down.</p><p>To the OP, play around with the class some more and try and be more aggressive and you may just find yourself enjoying it.  I, for one, have never had class envy towards Guardians.  The highly defensive Guardian type tanking seems incredibly boring to me.  Play your Berserker like a Berserker and not a Guardian and you'll have a lot more fun and be much more successful.  Do Guardians have an easier time tanking a lot of things?  Sure.  Do I doubt I can tank anything a Guardian can?  Not at all.  You just have to realize they're two different classes and require two different play styles.</p></blockquote><p>hehe i agree with you entirely.  i do have aggro problems sometimes with wizzy and assassins, basically classes that can hit really hard with one shot but i can pick it back up pretty quickly.  but when im tanking i dont have a moment to rest i have to keep going with my best availble CA's and taunts when there up or i will lose aggro more often.  </p><p>i also dont think the class is in as bad of shape as everyone like to say.  there are some problems: the hp regen lines, the EOF tree, all our crappy "dehabilitation" CA's.  but i dont think were broken just some areas of us badly need improvements.</p>

[LygerT]

<cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ZerkerDwarf wrote</cite> <blockquote><p>The AE CAs are almost totally useless. Especially in multiple mob encounters. Using them is a waste of dps/aggro since they suppress precious AE autoattacks (agi line). The only situation when I use an AE is when I start to cast it one second before I bump into a group of heroics to knock them out. Give all AEs at least a casting time of 0.5s to place them inbetween autoattacks without wasting dps.</p></blockquote><p>i totally disagree.  yeah there a little slow but wouldnt that because there AEs.  they get more effective the more mobs you hitting.  they are only a waste if your using them agaisnt a solo mob.</p></blockquote>ditto, and you combine our AE CAs with turmoil and juggernaut and that is where we shine on huge encounters, open wounds is secondary to that because it and our mythical have a max AE target count of 4.

[Ep]

whats this "snap aggro" i'm seeing all the time, really i mean being a betrayed zerker to guard i can remember having the same single taunt, the same group taunt, the same taunt+dmg ca, rescue, and aside from that guards have a 30s recast, long casting group dmg taunt. i mean yea there are "tricks" to get the mob back on you, if for some reason, i have no idea why other than memwipe you loose aggro, i won't go into those tricks but aside from mem wipe how do you loose aggro?and i still see no "snap aggro" super ca or many tants here, reinforce? up every 90 w/ aa's equip selection, vs gibe, both have their specific characteristics.i've never used reinforce on trash mobs, i don't see the need, sure i use it, like today i tanked valor, and he does that "hey you have no target" wonder thing, so i reinforce after just to be safe. is it useful for snap aggro? reinforce is a buff cast on you that lets you +1 position w/ each hit vs gibe, aggro (or position , i forget) w/ each hit on zerker. i've been both, there's no more snap aggro w/ a guard, maybe it's in the way i play, i don't loose aggro every minute of my raiding day that i need to snap it back constantly, i always keep all 5 books on me in vp even tho they die in a second, or i can keep all 6 justice mobs on me too as well. (i am failing to remember where there is another group aggro situation that i need to keep mobs on me since rok has next to zero group encounters). if your loosing aggro, do more dps, taunt more idk, but there's really no hope in this "snap aggro" area here. i just recently got the avatar hammer of rescue, now that, is snap aggro, i mean if we're really talking about snap aggro, thats where it is, but any class can equip that.

[Slayer505]

Snap aggro is a term for anything that increases your hate position like Reinforcement or Rescue, or anything that forces the mob to target you, like Peal or the clicky on the SK's Mythical.  Until the recent changes Berserkers had only Rescue.  Now we have Rescue and Insolence (which now bumps us up five hate positions).  Snap aggro is mainly useful for OTs that have to pick up a mob when the MT goes down, or for when the mob mem-wipes.  Sustained aggro, or, keeping the mob on you, is not a problem for Berserkers unless you're a complete slacker, snap aggro is.

[LygerT]

<cite>Auron@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>whats this "snap aggro" i'm seeing all the time, really i mean being a betrayed zerker to guard i can remember having the same single taunt, the same group taunt, the same taunt+dmg ca, rescue, and aside from that guards have a 30s recast, long casting group dmg taunt. i mean yea there are "tricks" to get the mob back on you, if for some reason, i have no idea why other than memwipe you loose aggro, i won't go into those tricks but aside from mem wipe how do you loose aggro?and i still see no "snap aggro" super ca or many tants here, reinforce? up every 90 w/ aa's equip selection, vs gibe, both have their specific characteristics.i've never used reinforce on trash mobs, i don't see the need, sure i use it, like today i tanked valor, and he does that "hey you have no target" wonder thing, so i reinforce after just to be safe. is it useful for snap aggro? reinforce is a buff cast on you that lets you +1 position w/ each hit vs gibe, aggro (or position , i forget) w/ each hit on zerker. i've been both, there's no more snap aggro w/ a guard, maybe it's in the way i play, i don't loose aggro every minute of my raiding day that i need to snap it back constantly, i always keep all 5 books on me in vp even tho they die in a second, or i can keep all 6 justice mobs on me too as well. (i am failing to remember where there is another group aggro situation that i need to keep mobs on me since rok has next to zero group encounters). if your loosing aggro, do more dps, taunt more idk, but there's really no hope in this "snap aggro" area here. i just recently got the avatar hammer of rescue, now that, is snap aggro, i mean if we're really talking about snap aggro, thats where it is, but any class can equip that.</blockquote>sorry but all i'm hearing is alot of hot air, perhaps you are comparing insolence to reinforcements too closely, where our whole goal is to avoid the hits in the first place, insolence gets resisted as well so what does that turn it into? a steamy pile, the +hate positional helped it some but also turned it somewhat more into a situational tool. perhaps you forgot how it was to play a zerk or maybe you just never noticed the real differences in RoK endgame because you betrayed far before you saw the real effects.

[victer]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote> open wounds is secondary to that because it and our mythical have a max AE target count of 4. </blockquote><p>I keep hearing this and want people to understand and be clear.</p><p>The way the AOE autoattack works is it is max 4 targets that must be in an arc in front of you. It's not just coupled with our sword or our CA.</p><p>Swashy's get 4 targets with thier autoattack skill thingy (forget the name), Gaurds get 4 targets if they go down the AGI line.</p><p>It's how the mechanic of AoE autoattack works. Not the CA or weapon or AA. Anytime you see anything that says you will have a % chance to autoattack multiple targets you are faceing  then is it using the AOE Autoattack mechanic and this is 4 targets in an arc in front of you.</p><p>AOE autoattack is another mechanic just like Melee Double attack or Melee Crit or Spell Crit or whatever. Please stop confusing people by saying  the 4 mob max targets it coupled with the CA or sword.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>my point being, the auto attack mechanic has a max AE target count of 4, our AE CAs have either an unlimited count (howl/onslaught) or a max of 8 (bloodbath). combine them with turmoil procs and a chance to crit and do additional damage via juggernaut and bind wound and you wind up with a the most AE spike damage of any class in the game. </p><p>it was just a comparison between our CAs which some people keep saying are worthless and putting more weight on our AE auto attacks to which i wanted to point out has twice as much or more reach in dps and has a bit more range. to me it seems like a number of people don't realize that there is a max cap on AE auto attack targets which is something i wanted to point out again. </p>

[Scrappe]

<p>What is the reason for the Guardian's superior survivability over a zerk?</p><p>I know they have more HP, but that (imho) counts next to nothing for survivability.</p><p>I know Guards have Tower of Stone, but that requires a Tower Shield, and I would think that all warriors are buckler spec'd, but I could be wrong I guess. </p><p>I apologize for asking this ignorant question, but every time I ask this I hear an answer that makes no sense. I'm coming down to the wire on deciding whether I want my warrior to be a Guard or a Zerk (he's 60 now and I've banked a bunch of spell rares), and survivability is most important to me. Perhaps it's stoneskins? Perhaps they are more prevalantly proc'ing or appearing during the course of an engagement that I can see when I read a spell lineup. My warrior's purpose is strictly instance grouping, no raids, and no mythical. Of course I want him to have decent DPS, so if a Guard was poor compared to a Zerk, I would consider that. However, everything I read says the two are about equal DPSwise. As far as holding aggro, theyre both fine, so I dont care about that. Im not overly concerned about snap aggro either, so my concerns keep coming back to this Guard survivability thing that everyone keeps talking about.</p>

[JerronBlacksilver]

<cite>ScrapperX wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What is the reason for the Guardian's superior survivability over a zerk?</p><p>I know they have more HP, but that (imho) counts next to nothing for survivability.</p><p>I know Guards have Tower of Stone, but that requires a Tower Shield, and I would think that all warriors are buckler spec'd, but I could be wrong I guess. </p><p>I apologize for asking this ignorant question, but every time I ask this I hear an answer that makes no sense. I'm coming down to the wire on deciding whether I want my warrior to be a Guard or a Zerk (he's 60 now and I've banked a bunch of spell rares), and survivability is most important to me. Perhaps it's stoneskins? Perhaps they are more prevalantly proc'ing or appearing during the course of an engagement that I can see when I read a spell lineup. My warrior's purpose is strictly instance grouping, no raids, and no mythical. Of course I want him to have decent DPS, so if a Guard was poor compared to a Zerk, I would consider that. However, everything I read says the two are about equal DPSwise. As far as holding aggro, theyre both fine, so I dont care about that. Im not overly concerned about snap aggro either, so my concerns keep coming back to this Guard survivability thing that everyone keeps talking about.</p></blockquote>This is a very good question, and I'd like to know the answer, too. I have an 80 berserker, but never played a Guardian...is it just ToS? That's just stoneskin for 3 hits, right? That doesn't sound better than Adrenaline...despite what the naysayers would have us believe, Adrenaline is amazing...add in clicky berserk, and you have an incredible survival tool. I can't imagine anything better than Adrenaline being anything but grossly overpowered.

[Bremer]

Block AA (100 % chance to block next attack), Stonesphere or so (group intercept that triggers stone skin). They can use the buckler line with tower shield, immunity to riposte damage and they have snap aggro (ok, all fighters have snap aggro exept Zerkers so that doesn't count) and usually they have a built in "I win" botton from SOE to make sure they are the preffered tank, (like Assasins have one since this expansion).

[Scrappe]

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Block AA (100 % chance to block next attack), Stonesphere or so (group intercept that triggers stone skin). They can use the buckler line with tower shield, immunity to riposte damage and they have snap aggro (ok, all fighters have snap aggro exept Zerkers so that doesn't count) and usually they have a built in "I win" botton from SOE to make sure they are the preffered tank, (like Assasins have one since this expansion).</blockquote><p>I remembered about Guard mythical making the buckler line a tower line after I stepped away. I guess there's nothing to be done about this since this character will never get a mythical. </p><p>I'll check out the Block AA, that sounds like something. What is this riposte immunity? I noticed stonesphere was noteworthy, but I didnt know if the stoneskin triggered onto the attacked group member, or the Guard, but even so, is this stonesphere triggering stoneskin that often? If it only happens once or twice per named engagement, I'm not sure if it's that big a deal.</p><p>Ok, Im reading about Block here: <a href="http://www.eq2ref.com/aa/index.php?class=Guardian" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.eq2ref.com/aa/index.php?class=Guardian</a> . You can use this once a minute to block a single attack of any size. You cant use any CAs during its 10 second run until it triggers. That doesnt sound very good. </p>

[LygerT]

the biggest single differences are the fact that guards can wield their tower shield while retaining the 60% double attack, they can also tank defensively with much less worry of dps classes yanking aggro due to their self attack skill buffs and the fact that they actually DPS better than we do while tanking defensively. non mythical guards are only a step ahead of us, mythical and end game gear equipped guards are light years ahead of other tanks though.

[Slayer505]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>the biggest single differences are the fact that guards can wield their tower shield while retaining the 60% double attack, they can also tank defensively with much less worry of dps classes yanking aggro due to their self attack skill buffs and the fact that they actually DPS better than we do while tanking defensively. non mythical guards are only a step ahead of us, mythical and end game gear equipped guards are light years ahead of other tanks though. </blockquote>More importantly in the survivability game, they get to keep the 8% uncontested riposte from the Stamina line while using a tower.  The Guardian Mythical is seriously overpowered.  Except for that the difference between the two classes isn't all that huge.

[Ep]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>sorry but all i'm hearing is alot of hot air, perhaps you are comparing insolence to reinforcements too closely, where our whole goal is to avoid the hits in the first place, insolence gets resisted as well so what does that turn it into? a steamy pile, the +hate positional helped it some but also turned it somewhat more into a situational tool. perhaps you forgot how it was to play a zerk or maybe you just never noticed the real differences in RoK endgame because you betrayed far before you saw the real effects. </blockquote>yea hot air, where is the snap aggro that guards have over every other class? and whats the difference between a kos zerker and a eof zerke? a tree that wasn't worthwhile to invest time in, i had lots of time to play w/ gibe. is reinforce a hate position increaser? yes, is it snap aggro? no. unless your lucky enough to reinforce while your mid swing or something and hope the mob hasn't zoomed past 10m. heck even the rescue hammer is situational it's 1s equip cast, that means no moving.

[LygerT]

<cite>Auron@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>sorry but all i'm hearing is alot of hot air, perhaps you are comparing insolence to reinforcements too closely, where our whole goal is to avoid the hits in the first place, insolence gets resisted as well so what does that turn it into? a steamy pile, the +hate positional helped it some but also turned it somewhat more into a situational tool. perhaps you forgot how it was to play a zerk or maybe you just never noticed the real differences in RoK endgame because you betrayed far before you saw the real effects. </blockquote>yea hot air, where is the snap aggro that guards have over every other class? and whats the difference between a kos zerker and a eof zerke? a tree that wasn't worthwhile to invest time in, i had lots of time to play w/ gibe. is reinforce a hate position increaser? yes, is it snap aggro? no. unless your lucky enough to reinforce while your mid swing or something and hope the mob hasn't zoomed past 10m. heck even the rescue hammer is situational it's 1s equip cast, that means no moving. </blockquote>dude, if you can't look at the guardian mythical and realize the issues then i really have nothing to say to you.

[victer]

just going to re-iterate what other people were saying The only real advantage that gaurds have against the zerker and all other tanks only shows when they get thier mythical.Up untill that point survivability wise its gonna depend on gear and skill of the player.The gaurd mythical is just too overpowered. They get to use tower shield while still retaining the 60% Double attack (for agro/dps) and coupled with the fact that they get to keep the 8% uncontested avoidance that comes with the buckler line.What this does is gives them about 7% more uncontested avoid (block) from the towershield and another 8% from the buckler line giving them a total of at least 15% which is HUGE considering they still get to keep the dps/agro advantages of the 60% Double attack.When the KOS tree came out and warriors started useing bucklers. This line made alot of Main tanks debate weather useing the buckler instead of tower was viable. The only reason why i thought the devs let us get AA's that gave us 60% double attack is the fact that you could choose to do alot more DPS at the cost of useing a weaker smaller shield which made you much more likely to get hit. They added the 8% uncontested avoidance to the line to make it not as bad of a hit going from tower to buckler.I never would have dreamed that they would let one of the warriors use a towershield and STILL get all the added bonuses from the buckler line. The AA's were never designed to work with Towershield because they knew it was completely overpowering. That is why i thought they forced us to use a buckler, one of the weakest blocking shields.The only real advantages gaurds have over anyone else (survivability wise) is when they get thier mythical. Before that any tank should be able to tank just as well as them given the same gear and skill.

[Scrappe]

<p><cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The gaurd mythical is just too overpowered. They get to use tower shield while still retaining the 60% Double attack (for agro/dps) and coupled with the fact that they get to keep the 8% uncontested avoidance that comes with the buckler line.What this does is gives them about 7% more uncontested avoid (block) from the towershield and another 8% from the buckler line <b>giving them a total of at least 15%</b> which is HUGE considering they still get to keep the dps/agro advantages of the 60% Double attack.When the KOS tree came out and warriors started useing bucklers. This line made alot of Main tanks debate weather useing the buckler instead of tower was viable. The only reason why i thought the devs let us get AA's that gave us 60% double attack is the fact that you could choose to do alot more DPS at the cost of useing a weaker smaller shield which made you much more likely to get hit. <b>They added the 8% uncontested avoidance to the line to make it not as bad of a hit going from tower to buckler</b>.I never would have dreamed that they would let one of the warriors use a towershield and STILL get all the added bonuses from the buckler line. <b>The AA's were never designed to work with Towershield because they knew it was completely overpowering</b>. That is why i thought they forced us to use a buckler, one of the weakest blocking shields.</blockquote><p>Now I get it. Thanks Victer.</p>

[Ep]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Auron@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>sorry but all i'm hearing is alot of hot air, perhaps you are comparing insolence to reinforcements too closely, where our whole goal is to avoid the hits in the first place, insolence gets resisted as well so what does that turn it into? a steamy pile, the +hate positional helped it some but also turned it somewhat more into a situational tool. perhaps you forgot how it was to play a zerk or maybe you just never noticed the real differences in RoK endgame because you betrayed far before you saw the real effects. </blockquote>yea hot air, where is the snap aggro that guards have over every other class? and whats the difference between a kos zerker and a eof zerke? a tree that wasn't worthwhile to invest time in, i had lots of time to play w/ gibe. is reinforce a hate position increaser? yes, is it snap aggro? no. unless your lucky enough to reinforce while your mid swing or something and hope the mob hasn't zoomed past 10m. heck even the rescue hammer is situational it's 1s equip cast, that means no moving. </blockquote>dude, if you can't look at the guardian mythical and realize the issues then i really have nothing to say to you.</blockquote>I'm just focusing on the snap aggro here, guard myth doesn't give snap aggro, it does provide for sustained aggro, but no snap aggro, your diverting this and that with this issue and that issue, when i'm just talking about snap aggro and how guards "have more" than any other class. Besides what does the guard myth have anything to do w/ zerker? Zerkers have thier own mythicals, i mean as far as where the berserker is concerned i've seen at least 5 alts of guild or friends betray from a zerker to a guard and they've all loved it. But thats not helping the zerker issue, thats just getting away from it.

[LygerT]

<p>the problem is, guardians are overpowered due to their mythical, as for derailing this thread on "snap aggro" re read the title of the thread and ask how i'm derailing it by setting you straight? put the pipe down.. problem isn't with zerks, problem is with guards and their mythical, that is why it keeps getting brought up. reinforcements works like a snap, better than our insolence did because it was a joke before, the mythical is what gives guards superior aggro management while tanking, superior survivability and near top tier plate tank dps. </p><p>what else should this thread be about? you can't honestly think they will make the rest of the plate tanks into guards do you? basically that would mean giving them warrior stamina line and the guardian mythical, there you go. </p><p>i'm honestly fine with our class as a whole but i am not fine with how we have taken a few steps down as viable main tanks without a choice in the matter, some zerks prefer to main tank, they took it in the rear this expansion. yes we can do it but guardians are the only tank class that does it better while doing many other things almost on par as other plate tanks at the same time. </p>

[Elanjar]

<cite>ScrapperX wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What is the reason for the Guardian's superior survivability over a zerk?</p><p>I know they have more HP, but that (imho) counts next to nothing for survivability.</p><p>I know Guards have Tower of Stone, but that requires a Tower Shield, and I would think that all warriors are buckler spec'd, but I could be wrong I guess. </p><p>I apologize for asking this ignorant question, but every time I ask this I hear an answer that makes no sense. I'm coming down to the wire on deciding whether I want my warrior to be a Guard or a Zerk (he's 60 now and I've banked a bunch of spell rares), and survivability is most important to me. Perhaps it's stoneskins? Perhaps they are more prevalantly proc'ing or appearing during the course of an engagement that I can see when I read a spell lineup. My warrior's purpose is strictly instance grouping, no raids, and no mythical. Of course I want him to have decent DPS, so if a Guard was poor compared to a Zerk, I would consider that. However, everything I read says the two are about equal DPSwise. As far as holding aggro, theyre both fine, so I dont care about that. Im not overly concerned about snap aggro either, so my concerns keep coming back to this Guard survivability thing that everyone keeps talking about.</p></blockquote>They have ToS which they can use while buckler spec'd. all they need is a macro the equips a tower shield. Casts ToS and then another macro to re equip the buckler. They have stonesphere which has a chance to proc stoneskin on the intercepted damage. (aka intercede with a chance to stoneskin the hit). The 100% block chance mentioned. Other than that they just have an HP buff and a +s/c/p buff which allows them to tank in def stance without losing hit rates. In addition they arent as hit rate dependent since they have tools like moderate and reinforcements.and then of course the mythical.i really like moderate. i wish i had something like that