Weird bug in weapon procs.

[Antipalad]

Couldn't help to notice that weapons with a delay of 3.5 seconds seem to have a rounding bug in proc rate while equipped. See screenshots attached. Not sure how many weapons this affects, but it's a serious enough bug for it to warrant a fix in my opinion.<img src="http://i35.tinypic.com/20sf7yw.jpg" alt="" border="0" />Troub mythical as it appears when equipped, notice 2.2 procs per minute underlined.<img src="http://i34.tinypic.com/24l3eyq.jpg" alt="" border="0" />Same weapon, only thing different here is it being in my bag instead of being equipped.I have weapons of other delay rates, such as 4.0 seconds and 4.5 seconds, and they don't seem to be affected at all.To my knowledge, this is a bug that has been known for quite some time, and I'm astounded that it's allowed to pass onto live servers, let alone stay there for a long time.

[Mr. Dawki]

Notice also it says "connot be modified except by direct means", and yet it modifies itself! DUN DUN DUN

[Aeralik]

The reason it changes is because of the dual wield delay.  In your bag it's a 3.5 second delay as displayed.  When you are dual wielding, it becomes a 4.6 delay weapon for the normalization and procs per minute calculations.

[Wilin]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The reason it changes is because of the dual wield delay.  In your bag it's a 3.5 second delay as displayed.  When you are dual wielding, it becomes a 4.6 delay weapon for the normalization and procs per minute calculations.</blockquote><p>Since weapon delay (3.5s or 4.6s) is dependent on time and proc rate is also dependent on time (procs/minute), shouldn't the proc rate remain constant as the weapon delay changes?</p><p>IOW, shouldn't it proc 2.4/minute no matter how fast you are swinging?</p>

[Pins]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The reason it changes is because of the dual wield delay.  In your bag it's a 3.5 second delay as displayed.  When you are dual wielding, it becomes a 4.6 delay weapon for the normalization and procs per minute calculations.</blockquote>I thought the whole point of procs per minute calculations was to be static all the time.  Meaning it was normalized off that value, not different because of you equipping it.  If this isn't the case, then there isn't normalization.  That being the case for this example:In 60s you get 17.14 swings off with 3.5 delay and 12.86 swings off with 4.666 delay.  So if you have a 2.2/minute on the 4.666 delay that means you will proc 10 times every 58 swings, which means it'll take 271s for 10 procs.  Whereas, with a 2.4/minute on a 3.5 delay you will proc 10 times every 72 swings, which means 252s for 10 procs.Which means it's not normalized, else they'd be equal, since that's the purpose of normalization.  This is something that is broken.  Procs/minute calculations, why is there even a proc/minute calculation, isn't the whole point of procs/minute that it normalizes itself!

[Aeralik]

It just rounds off the hits which is the small error you are seeing.  You technically can't have a .86 of a hit so it rounds that off for the calculation.  Internally, it uses the right percentages though.  The old display people found even more confusing because it said it had X% chance to proc but that didnt include normalization.  This new system that has been in use for awhile has seen a lot less confusion in general.  I think of the ppm really more as a general rating because if you parse them the rate will be higher most of the time from haste.

[thecynic315]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>It just rounds off the hits which is the small error you are seeing.  You technically can't have a .86 of a hit so it rounds that off for the calculation.  Internally, it uses the right percentages though.  The old display people found even more confusing because it said it had X% chance to proc but that didnt include normalization.  This new system that has been in use for awhile has seen a lot less confusion in general.  I think of the ppm really more as a general rating because if you parse them the rate will be higher most of the time from haste.</blockquote>So why can't it display the correct %?Also please answer Pinski's question, is it normalized or not?

[Antipalad]

<p>If this is the case with it "normalizing itself" when not dualwielded in my bags, how come a 4.0 sec weapon shows exactly the same value whether it's in my bags or dualwielded. Your explanation doesn't hold, fix please.</p><p>Edit: Swapping out offhander with a shield, and proc rate still drops.</p>

[Detor]

<cite>Androw@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>It just rounds off the hits which is the small error you are seeing.  You technically can't have a .86 of a hit so it rounds that off for the calculation.  Internally, it uses the right percentages though.  The old display people found even more confusing because it said it had X% chance to proc but that didnt include normalization.  This new system that has been in use for awhile has seen a lot less confusion in general.  I think of the ppm really more as a general rating because if you parse them the rate will be higher most of the time from haste.</blockquote>So why can't it display the correct %?Also please answer Pinski's question, is it normalized or not?</blockquote>The game only shows 1 decimal point, so it can't say 2.286 times per minute, instead it rounds.  If I say "I'm in a hurry, so we'll just round up or down to the next dollar when I give you an estimate of price because you keep bringing different combinations up and asking how much.  When you are finally ready to checkout we'll use the real figures.  Oh, and I'm going to reduce the price you pay by a 10% discount."  You bring something up worth $3.40, I say $3 before discount, $3 after discount.  For THAT priced item before and after rounding it LOOKED the same to you.  Once you were ready to check out we would have used the real figures internally.    You bring up a $3.60 item, now being your discount (eg normalization of weapon delay modifiers) I say $4, then I say oh but with the discount $3.So you see from that example that when you round something for display in order to give an idea of what to expect to someone sometimes it comes out to the same before and after modifiers while other times it comes out different before and after you modified it by something.  If in the end internally you use the exact down to the last decimal you gain the same benefit due to the modifier - no matter what the rounded version shows.

[Kleitos]

<i>The reason it changes is because of the dual wield delay. In your bag it's a 3.5 second delay as displayed. When you are dual wielding, it becomes a 4.6 delay weapon for the normalization and procs per minute calculations.</i>So why not change the delay display aswell? 3.5s in my bag and 4.6s if I equip it and dual wield, 3.5s if I have a shield?

[thecynic315]

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Androw@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>It just rounds off the hits which is the small error you are seeing.  You technically can't have a .86 of a hit so it rounds that off for the calculation.  Internally, it uses the right percentages though.  The old display people found even more confusing because it said it had X% chance to proc but that didnt include normalization.  This new system that has been in use for awhile has seen a lot less confusion in general.  I think of the ppm really more as a general rating because if you parse them the rate will be higher most of the time from haste.</blockquote>So why can't it display the correct %?Also please answer Pinski's question, is it normalized or not?</blockquote>The game only shows 1 decimal point, so it can't say 2.286 times per minute, instead it rounds.  If I say "I'm in a hurry, so we'll just round up or down to the next dollar when I give you an estimate of price because you keep bringing different combinations up and asking how much.  When you are finally ready to checkout we'll use the real figures.  Oh, and I'm going to reduce the price you pay by a 10% discount."  You bring something up worth $3.40, I say $3 before discount, $3 after discount.  For THAT priced item before and after rounding it LOOKED the same to you.  Once you were ready to check out we would have used the real figures internally.    You bring up a $3.60 item, now being your discount (eg normalization of weapon delay modifiers) I say $4, then I say oh but with the discount $3.So you see from that example that when you round something for display in order to give an idea of what to expect to someone sometimes it comes out to the same before and after modifiers while other times it comes out different before and after you modified it by something.  If in the end internally you use the exact down to the last decimal you gain the same benefit due to the modifier - no matter what the rounded version shows.</blockquote>So your answer is that sending more then 3 ASCII characters to the display field, which also has a length of 3 ASCII characters is what exactly?Cause thats my orginal question which I guess is more of a Rothgar thing cause he does the UI huh?Though I did have a thought, when you do a /weapon it shows you the internal % to proc....since the current PPM display is very missleading/Bugged horriably. Can the internal % just be displayed or sent to thethe UI as well please?

[Safana.]

<p>I really think something is horribly wrong with the calculation of displayed proc values (or even with internal calculation, who knows).</p><p>I just noticed the values of my poisons not being affected in the proper way of my Bauble of the Tintinnabulum (increases poison trigger chance by 2%) and the Exigent Malady, the Plaguebringer's Shank (increases poison trigger chance by 5%).</p><p>Base Values of poisons are like following (percentage numbers are added by me to show the relations when adding the items which increase trigger chance):</p><p>red poison: 5,0ppm / 25%purple poison: 3,0ppm / 15%blue poison: 3,0ppm / 15%</p><p>Normalization is done for 3 second delay, that means the chance to proc for a weapon that does 20 swings per minute.</p><p>So i expect following numbers when using both items:</p><p>red poison: 6,4ppm / 32%purple poison: 4,4ppm / 22%blue poison: 4,4ppm / 22%</p><p>Now, thats what i got when i equiped my new dagger (using it in primary slot and using buckler of the howler in secondary):</p><p>red poison: 6,0ppm / 30%purple poison: 4,1ppm / 20,5%blue poison: 4,1ppm / 20,5%</p><p>Then i equiped Maestro's Flame in secondary slot and watched the numbers change:</p><p>red poison 5,7ppm / 28,5%purple poison 3,7ppm / 18,5%blue poison 3,7ppm / 18,5%</p><p>Finally i changed the two weapons so i had the Maestros Flame in primay and Shank in secondary and the values changed again:</p><p>red poison 6,9ppm / 34,5%purple poison 4,9ppm / 24,5%blue poison 4,9ppm / 24,5%So, ok you already told us: "It just rounds off the hits which is the small error you are seeing." You say that values between 5,7ppm and 6,9ppm are small errors when 6,4 should be the correct value? (which is easy enough to calculate, just to add that as sidenote) That are differences of around 10%. By the way, i just tested something else just for the lulz, i took my old Prismatic Swiftblade of the Scale (1.2sec delay) off the bank and equiped it onto the primary slot, guess what happened:</p><p>red poison 7,5ppm / 37,5%purple poison 5,6ppm / 28%blue poison 5,6ppm / 28%</p><p>Tbh that does not look like a "small error" even if interal calculations are done right (which i dont believe at all, just saying). Whats the use of displaying the proc chances, if these values are so horribly wrong. Doing calculations using rounded numbers multiple times or kinda like that makes results very different from the real values.</p><p>I also do not understand how the currently equiped weapon affects a displayed value showing a normalized value. It does not matter if i use a 1.6sec delay weapon for 1h combat or a 4sec delay weapon for dual wield, which would be 5,3sec delay then. When i use caustic poison it procs 5 times a minute, i just swing the 1.6delay more often than the 4sec (5,3sec) delay weapon and therefor get a less procchance per hit (and that's internal calculation) for the 1,6sec. But over the same time i have to have the same amount of procs for both.</p>

[Pins]

The problem is, procs/minute doesn't actually equate to actual %.That being, honestly, the display is flawed, and I wish there was the capability as an option to see raw % instead of procs/minute for those of us inclined to want to see that instead.