Dev Chat July 31 2008 @ allakhazam.com, regarding SK

[MirageKnight]

<a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/wiki/Dev_Chat_July_31_2008" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://eq2.allakhazam.com/wiki/Dev_...at_July_31_2008</a>Quote :Bludwyng: Stugein asks, What, if any, incentive do you feel is there for people to use one of the precious 24 raid slots on a Shadowknight? What benefit do they bring to the table that one of the other classes can't do far better or more efficiently?<p>Aeralik: The primary role of the shadowknight is tanking which is why a raid should want to bring one along. Currently when it comes to tanking some classes definitely outshine the rest which is something we will be looking into. Tank balance though is more of a long term project. So don't expect anything in the next few updates but it is on our radar.</p>If developer can't even fix SK epic to give some short term solution as SK community has given idea to compensate current situation to SK's epic weapon (like adding 10% dmg reduction just like paladin epic and 10% dmg return to target which is similar to paladin's epic but help to gain aggro), how we can wait any longer? Surprisingly developer's intention of SK's role is still "tanking" in raid despite SK epic they have given to SK. If SK's role is tanking as developers say, then why SK's epic is totally lacking any tanking utility is very questionable.And even more, how many times we have heard "long term project" never been addressed on tanking balance??From what he has said, "don't expect anything in the next few updates" really put me down from knowing they won't do anything for next few years, just like we saw any input from SK has been ignored for SK's epic change despite they have asked SK for input.SK DO need help and even for short time fix (like giving more appropriate epic weapon) is better than nothing.Very disappointed on how developer is taking the current SK's fact.

[Callim]

<cite>MirageKnight wrote:</cite><blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/wiki/Dev_Chat_July_31_2008" target="_blank">http://eq2.allakhazam.com/wiki/Dev_...at_July_31_2008</a>Quote :Bludwyng: Stugein asks, What, if any, incentive do you feel is there for people to use one of the precious 24 raid slots on a Shadowknight? What benefit do they bring to the table that one of the other classes can't do far better or more efficiently? <p>Aeralik: The primary role of the shadowknight is tanking which is why a raid should want to bring one along. Currently when it comes to tanking some classes definitely outshine the rest which is something we will be looking into. Tank balance though is more of a long term project. <b>So don't expect anything in the next few updates but it is on our radar.</b></p></blockquote><p>Well thank god!  I was worried there for a bit that there might be some crazy idea at SoE to deal with an issue that effects 1/4 the player base directly, and 3/4 indirectly, 1/4 of all the itemization, 1/4 of the spells and abilities, and oh...all of the mob and raid balancing.</p><p>Its reassuring to know that this is still only radar worthy, I'd hate to have anything to hope for in LU 48, 49, 50, 51......someone remind me just how many is a "few" in this case?  Oh well at least we can rest assured that the next 3-6 months won't bring the the stress of learning how to play without crutches.</p><p>/hoists a glass to ignoring easy fixes and player advice, 3 years and still going strong!</p><p>/sarcasm off</p><p>....sigh</p>

[Tiberuis]

<cite>MirageKnight wrote:</cite><blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/wiki/Dev_Chat_July_31_2008" target="_blank">http://eq2.allakhazam.com/wiki/Dev_...at_July_31_2008</a>Quote :Bludwyng: Stugein asks, What, if any, incentive do you feel is there for people to use one of the precious 24 raid slots on a Shadowknight? What benefit do they bring to the table that one of the other classes can't do far better or more efficiently? <p>Aeralik: The primary role of the shadowknight is tanking which is why a raid should want to bring one along. Currently when it comes to tanking some classes definitely outshine the rest which is something we will be looking into. Tank balance though is more of a long term project. So don't expect anything in the next few updates but it is on our radar.</p></blockquote><p>I'm glad to hear that tanking balance is something the Dev's acknowledge is broken.  However, I am very concerned about the lack of a reasonable timetable to fix it.  Aeralik's response is not at all encouraging.  </p><p>It is clear from this statement that we will not see anything done about our class until after the next expansion.</p><p>This is absolutely horrible service from SOE, an entertainment provider.  No wonder the SK forums have been imploding for years now.</p><p>I am disheartened by the Dev's total lack of concern for our player base.  It is obvious that they simply do not care about the SK class, or the players invested in the SK class at all.</p>

[Stuge]

<span style="font-family: courier new,courier;">Yeah, it was nice to see that they acknowledge the problem, but more than a little bummer to know that I don't have anything to look forward to for the forseeable future.</span>

[Bruener]

<p>This is pretty ridiculous.  The fact that they acknowledge this imbalance, acknowledge that it is the primary reason for lack of SKs on raids, and yet state that it won't be for months from now...if at all.  Aerilik needs to be fired.  Period.  That is not how you run any type of business.  Running any type of business problems need to be recognized and than fixed ASAP.  Some obviously take priority over others...but there is nothing that is on the "radar" atm that any logical person would say should take priority over the tank imbalance.  Tbh I don't see anything getting changed until we have a regime change in Devs.  Aerilik has played favorites to a few classes and than completely ignored a few classes.  Assassins are gods of DPS now...go figure.  Guards are THE tank for raids.</p><p>This problem needs to be fixed and I guess since Aerilik won't do it all we can really hope for is for his *ss to get canned.</p>

[Seolta]

<p>A few things more important than Fighter archeytpe balance:</p><ul><li>Cheesy world event ex-pack lead-ins which reward re-tinted(for the 100th time) armor and cutesy house items.</li><li>Eating Pie.</li><li>Revamping lowbie gear for the WoW kiddies who migrate so they can level to 80 in 3weeks instead of 4.</li><li>More tradeskill quests - god forbid the maxed out TS'ers (who eat, drink and breathe boredom) get uh...bored.</li><li>Cheesy guild hall lead-ins with lots of NPC's busy at work doing NOTHING.</li><li>Revamping the in-house item mechanics because LORE MEANS LORE Dammit!</li><li>Giving interviews to talk about not doing anything about the Fighter archetype balance.</li></ul>

[BMonkeeus]

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote</cite> <blockquote><ul><li>More tradeskill quests - god forbid the maxed out TS'ers (who eat, drink and breathe boredom) get uh...bored.</li></ul></blockquote>LoL @ that one...

[Margen]

<p>Well he did explain it a bit more in debth on one of the other threads.  I don't really like the answer but I understand their postion better.</p><p>Even so, some small changes for SKs would be in order, changing our raid buff to base damage increase and increasing our dps to be on par with where Guards and Beserkers are now (though I think Guards need theirs lowered) would be an easy start and wouldn't totally kill balance in the game or machanics.  Things as they are now is enough to make me grind my teeth.</p><p>Here is the post if anyone is intreasted.</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=425579" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=425579</a></p>

[rabid.pooh]

<cite>BMonkeeus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote</cite> <blockquote><ul><li>More tradeskill quests - god forbid the maxed out TS'ers (who eat, drink and breathe boredom) get uh...bored.</li></ul></blockquote>LoL @ that one...</blockquote><p>Hey back off the TS dev, she's the only who's actually engaging the community and responding to it's needs, class balance ain't domino's job/speciality, and has deffinately been one of the most kick but devs around.  She came into the SK forums asks for feedback and now at level 20+ you can get a 4 to 6 second dealyed crafted/MC weapons, there's a dev that earned her paycheck.</p><p>*edited for really lame spelling/grammer mistakes, that'll teach me for posting at work <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[evilgamer]

<cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BMonkeeus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote</cite> <blockquote><ul><li>More tradeskill quests - god forbid the maxed out TS'ers (who eat, drink and breathe boredom) get uh...bored.</li></ul></blockquote>LoL @ that one...</blockquote><p>Hey back of the TS dev, she's the only who's actually engaging the community and responding to it's needs, class balance ain't domino's job/speciality, and has deffinately been one of the most kick but devs around.  She came into the SK forums as for feedback and now at level 20+ you can get a 4 to 6 second dealyed crafted/MC weapons, now that's a dev that earned her paycheck.</p></blockquote>Domino is a good developer you can tell she really does care about her job and gives it a good effort.

[Beldin_]

<p>Yeah .. nothing against Domino .. wish all Devs would be like her. She is the only one who is extremely present in the forums and brings in a lot of nice things. </p><p>I really wish she had a brother or sister who could take over Aeraliks job <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Aull]

<p>Not really sure what to say here everyone. I hate to say it but by the evidence I am seeing I am not sure that anything will ever be done. I think that time and expansions have slowly chewed what is called "balance" yet having "individuality" or "class defining" to bits. This wandering through a desolate desert of depair and seeing only mirages and waiting for answers should have closed this/these forums down six months ago if everyone was truely fed up.</p><p> It is sad to see this.</p>

[Seolta]

<p>I give props to Domino all over the place...she's one of the few good ones who actually TRY to support and listen to the players, AND actually have a clue about what they're doing.</p><p>Rothgar is a sharp dude too, but he doesn't have much say in design issues. Fyreflyte was off to a hella rocky start w the whole RoK leather debacle(and got reamed for it), but he's actually been making a real effort lately to listen to the community and not be a jerk about it. </p><p>SoE still has *a few* good kids, hopefully they get more say in things down the line.</p>

[Airien]

I've only been playing for a lil over 2 months now and my SK is my main toon for the time being so I've spent a farily decent amount of time researching them and I always read about how they are "gimped" in regards to end game tanking compared to the other tank classes. What I have been wondering is are they really that gimped to the point that a SK who is geared accordingly can't tank high end content worth a dam and be a viable MT, or, is it that Guards just offer the "tank & spank" easy mode therefore most choose to go with a Guardian thus creating less of a challenge and more of a chance for success?Are SK's comparable to the other tank classes in terms of MT'ing or even as an off tank?

[Porphyry]

<p>I've tanked VP named several times. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>We're not "[Removed for Content]," we're just different than your guardian types.  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Grimm79]

<p>Yes we are different, a little too different. Or actually the guardian is the one too different from the rest of the tank classes. All in all I'd really like to get some attention that goes beyond adding a damage proc to our fabled/mythical. </p>

[Hugsnkissums]

<cite>Porphyry@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I've tanked VP named several times. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>We're not "[Removed for Content]," we're just different than your guardian types.  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>I agree that Sks are not [Removed for Content], but they do need more support then the other tanks do for the same job. You're lucky to have a raid guild take you in and ALLOW an SK in their ranks. Most just cringe at the idea since SKs just don't bring anything to the table other classes don't do better already. Most raid guild tend to favor paladins over SKs because an Amends target is a much more efficient means of aggro control then FDing whomever has aggro. 

[Beldin_]

I call it SKs are "indrectly" nerfed in RoK. Its not that the class has been nerfed, but  on the one hand we just don't get the same benefits from items like pure melee classes, and on the other hand the lack of AoE encounters took away the playfield where SKs were really great before.

[DMIstar]

<cite>Airien wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've only been playing for a lil over 2 months now and my SK is my main toon for the time being so I've spent a farily decent amount of time researching them and I always read about how they are "gimped" in regards to end game tanking compared to the other tank classes. What I have been wondering is are they really that gimped to the point that a SK who is geared accordingly can't tank high end content worth a dam and be a viable MT, or, is it that Guards just offer the "tank & spank" easy mode therefore most choose to go with a Guardian thus creating less of a challenge and more of a chance for success?Are SK's comparable to the other tank classes in terms of MT'ing or even as an off tank?</blockquote><p>There is realy no gear properly set at this point.. At this stage in game, SK's Will tank VP and such, Just not as effecient as other classes and it takes more rescources to do so. </p><p>Look at it this way... You first do the zone a few times and it will be hard.. As you progress it gets easier and certain things are easier to do with upgardes.. DPS, Heal.. Tank.. so with this about.. Crusaders and brawlers are tanking more in the high end..</p><p>Now if your wanting to go break into the new zones with the new expansions tanking as an SK for the first month.. .Ehh no way. It would just be crippleing the raid..</p><p>Its our itemization that helps hinder us.. With our DPS being split into Two for no real apparent reason.. To also haveing 2 a stats for tanking.. STA/AGI.. yet next to no gear sporting STR/STA/AGI/INT stats all together to compete .. and when it does, the nerf one of the portions down. </p>

[Beldin_]

<cite>Istar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>ts our itemization that helps hinder us.. With our DPS being split into Two for no real apparent reason.. To also haveing 2 a stats for tanking.. STA/AGI.. yet next to no gear sporting STR/STA/AGI/INT stats all together to compete .. and when it does, the nerf one of the portions down. </blockquote><p>They should really bury 2 thing in my opinion</p><p>1. the hybrid thing where one class needs more stats than other classes .. just make all fighter styles STR based. Or .. put always 5 stats on all items.</p><p>2. the difference between spell, close-melee and ranged-melee .. just make it that a crit IS a crit, regardless if its a spell, melee or an arrow. Rangers will also support this i think.</p>

[Porphyry]

<cite>Hugsnkissums wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Porphyry@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I've tanked VP named several times. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>We're not "[Removed for Content]," we're just different than your guardian types. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>...but they do need more support then the other tanks do for the same job. </blockquote>Exactly.   Survivability: With almost every encounter in T1 through T4 where I am tanking, Bloodletter always triggers.  So basically I just died.  This almost never happens with a guardian.  Though I do notice large spikes with a Paladin too (just the other night our Paladin was off tanking Nexona and Druushk's adds and was spiking a lot more than our 2nd guardian does with the same OT setup).  An interesting comment that was made to me by our healer officer, who is a templar, "Everytime Poofy tanks, his health is either in the green, or the red.  He'll be at full health one moment, and before you know it, the raid is at half health and I just realized Bloodletter went off."   I LOL'd. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Aggro:  For the most part, aggro is never an issue.  In my experience, the only time I have aggro issues is if at the beginning of an encounter my taunts are resisted.  Even though we have enough snap aggro abilities to get it back:  Death March (doesn't alway work in T<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, Rescue, Feign Death, Intercede and if you have it, your mythical.   

[slippery]

I was tanking 3rd wing VP my guilds third time through VP, and I was in heroic gear (minus the enduring wall). We didn't have any problems. There is no reason an SK can't tank anything. The only times I ever have bloodletter trigger are when the MT goes down because the mob wasn't debuffed and I was screwing off. If I'm main tanking bloodletter will almost never trigger. People keep saying we need extra support? What the hell are you talking about? Extra support? What extra support? You mean the same buffs any other class needs? Templar, Defiler, Dirge, Coercer, Swash works just fine for us like it works just fine for any other tank.

[Kaarim]

<cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was tanking 3rd wing VP my guilds third time through VP, and I was in heroic gear (minus the enduring wall). We didn't have any problems. There is no reason an SK can't tank anything. The only times I ever have bloodletter trigger are when the MT goes down because the mob wasn't debuffed and I was screwing off. If I'm main tanking bloodletter will almost never trigger. People keep saying we need extra support? What the hell are you talking about? Extra support? What extra support? You mean the same buffs any other class needs? Templar, Defiler, Dirge, Coercer, Swash works just fine for us like it works just fine for any other tank. </blockquote>Yep..you're right.I think now adays most shadowknights don't raid or are in an advanced raiding guild with proper raid setups which is why they may feel we need more/extra support of some sort. Templar, shaman (i prefer mystic bolster rocks lol), dirge, coercer, swash. You get your massive hate feed who needs amends?? Above the hate mod anyways with this setup. You get your dps buffs, you get ur hate transfer (sepreate from hate mods), you get your heals.What more is needed? This is a solid OT grp for any shadowknight, hell any fighter for that matter. I most likely might get flamed lol I noticed I have in other forums ppl think I'm a not "knowledgeable" about the class and not one person has agreed on anything I've said so far lol. If I was not knowledgeable then I would have issues with hate gain, issues with dps, and no advanced raiding guild would take an sk it's rare for that matter, or even an "unknowledgeable" SK as a few ppl claimed me to be. I keep repeating myself that yes we do need help in a few spots but nothing so drastic that will make you quit or threaten the developers. This is not an easy class to play a lot of studying and understanding is needed. I think the major issue itself is within the shadowknight community....and those issues within our community will refelct on every shadowknight in game. Once they fix the tanking mit/avoid mechanics you'll get that proper survivability, but it's not impossible to achieve at the moment with the right items/gear setup. Even then when this occurs I still strongly believe a high population of the sk community will still cry out for the moon and the stars...

[Tiberuis]

<cite>Darkwarrior@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was tanking 3rd wing VP my guilds third time through VP, and I was in heroic gear (minus the enduring wall). We didn't have any problems. There is no reason an SK can't tank anything. The only times I ever have bloodletter trigger are when the MT goes down because the mob wasn't debuffed and I was screwing off. If I'm main tanking bloodletter will almost never trigger. People keep saying we need extra support? What the hell are you talking about? Extra support? What extra support? You mean the same buffs any other class needs? Templar, Defiler, Dirge, Coercer, Swash works just fine for us like it works just fine for any other tank. </blockquote>Yep..you're right.I think now adays most shadowknights don't raid or are in an advanced raiding guild with proper raid setups which is why they may feel we need more/extra support of some sort. Templar, shaman (i prefer mystic bolster rocks lol), dirge, coercer, swash. You get your massive hate feed who needs amends?? Above the hate mod anyways with this setup. You get your dps buffs, you get ur hate transfer (sepreate from hate mods), you get your heals.What more is needed? This is a solid OT grp for any shadowknight, hell any fighter for that matter. I most likely might get flamed lol I noticed I have in other forums ppl think I'm a not "knowledgeable" about the class and not one person has agreed on anything I've said so far lol. If I was not knowledgeable then I would have issues with hate gain, issues with dps, and no advanced raiding guild would take an sk it's rare for that matter, or even an "unknowledgeable" SK as a few ppl claimed me to be. I keep repeating myself that yes we do need help in a few spots but nothing so drastic that will make you quit or threaten the developers. This is not an easy class to play a lot of studying and understanding is needed. I think the major issue itself is within the shadowknight community....and those issues within our community will refelct on every shadowknight in game. Once they fix the tanking mit/avoid mechanics you'll get that proper survivability, but it's not impossible to achieve at the moment with the right items/gear setup. Even then when this occurs I still strongly believe a high population of the sk community will still cry out for the moon and the stars...</blockquote><p>Glad you are happy with the SK class.  Woot!</p><p>Unfortunately, the issue is all about class balance.  </p><p>SK's have the lowest core tanking stat values.  Lowest Mitigation, Lowest Ability to Absorb Spike Damage, Lowest Avoidance, Lowest Aggro Generation, Second Lowest DPS.</p><p>I'm not happy that we got screwed in ROK and are the lowest in almost every relevant plate tanking stat.  And neither is 99.9% of the SK's on these forums.</p><p>Please bring SK's into balance with the other plate tank classes.  Thank-you.</p>

[DMIstar]

<cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was tanking 3rd wing VP my guilds third time through VP, and I was in heroic gear (minus the enduring wall). We didn't have any problems. There is no reason an SK can't tank anything. The only times I ever have bloodletter trigger are when the MT goes down because the mob wasn't debuffed and I was screwing off. If I'm main tanking bloodletter will almost never trigger. People keep saying we need extra support? What the hell are you talking about? Extra support? What extra support? You mean the same buffs any other class needs? Templar, Defiler, Dirge, Coercer, Swash works just fine for us like it works just fine for any other tank. </blockquote><p>The Reason You dont know, Is cause you do not reasearch, You probably don't know why we take more hits then the other class, or DPS rates as it is.... But you do know when you go into VP with your guild, you can somehow magically tank all this and Say "Hey I'm Doing great" </p><p>putting a blind side to parses, numbers and calculations, is fine, Hey i think some hate it.. But other's don't .. </p><p>Yes We take more damage then "The Tank", WE are designed to Have Lower Avoidence Levels then "The Tank" so we take more direct Hits ... </p><p>Which was why initially we where given More Mitigation. I can go on a whole Speel about how all these factors worked and where desgined when the game went live compared to now .. But I'm to tired to bother with that.. and its not to hard to research .. If you want to a good start is the equipment itemizations that where planned inistially and how that was ditched and changed. </p><p>In any case as stated above, you can find the variences Easily With ACT and how certain effect us and how they effect Guards in comparison.. FOr those who dont mind on actually learning, its a great tool.. </p><p>Now The one thing i want to put emphisis on... Since what SKs are now doing to get by in VP and such ... Is .. WE are not a GUARD... Our Primary STats are STR/STA/INT ... Our AGI is supposed to be around 100-200 and our INT is actually supposed to be around 500's ... This is where other SK's are comeing at when Compareing tanking ability.. Our VP class suit wasnt built for a mystery class... </p><p>What People are doing now is Just Striaght SPeccing STR/STA/AGI .. and pushing INT in some places.. Hence being a guard ... Not sure why they just don't role one but who the hell knows. This is to compete with a gaurd ... I have a suit and AA spec on it now to.. I have over 50% mit and over 50%avoid. Takeing Damage Works Great... Dealing Damage.. It completely sucks .. </p><p>Ever Have the capped 1.2k+STR and INT ? Well Every SK should have atleast Done this before, or Just close.. Hell Its rather cheap doing 1k on both. and anaylizing the difference. </p><p>Literally is there a ton changes that need to take place ? Well if i go by the description that they give on the class.. Obsolutlety YES ... But logical from where we stand.. Its not much.. Itemization is a big deal though.. We should not be haveing SK's support STR/STA/AGI lines as much as they are to tank. and fixing us in that stat is a bad move. We have to get our STR/STA/INT fixed up to be a tankable Solution. </p><p>But if somehow the devs are foolish enough to scale our DPS up with STR/STA/AGI spec.. I won't complain.. I ll just be sipping my wine the next day, I tear the living hell out of Our assasins DPS Zone Wide .. which in turn will give our Class Desinger Compulsions and they might actually suppend the class ;P </p>

[Airien]

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkwarrior@Blackburrow wrote</cite><cite></cite><p>Glad you are happy with the SK class. Woot!</p><p><i><b>Unfortunately, the issue is all about class balance.</b></i> </p><p>SK's have the lowest core tanking stat values. Lowest Mitigation, Lowest Ability to Absorb Spike Damage, Lowest Avoidance, Lowest Aggro Generation, Second Lowest DPS.</p><p>I'm not happy that we got screwed in ROK and are the lowest in almost every relevant plate tanking stat. And neither is 99.9% of the SK's on these forums.</p><p>Please bring SK's into balance with the other plate tank classes. Thank-you.</p></blockquote>Class balance in what regards? If you're talking about end game content/raiding then I can see from researching the SK class that they definitely aren't on par with the other classes. But how do they scale compared to the other classes in different apects of the game?Are the other tank classes as dominate soloing?  Do they posess  the same survivablilty as SK's do with their healing abilities? I've read that SK's can be extremely powerful in PvP, how do other tank classes compare in that respect?Now I'm not asking this to call you out on the point you are trying to make, I'm just curious seeing as how I'm still rather new to EQ2 and am really enjoying my SK thus far so I'd like to have a proper understanding of what their strengths/weaknesses are compared to other classes across all forms of content.

[Tiberuis]

<cite>Airien wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkwarrior@Blackburrow wrote</cite><cite></cite><p>Glad you are happy with the SK class. Woot!</p><p><i><b>Unfortunately, the issue is all about class balance.</b></i> </p><p>SK's have the lowest core tanking stat values. Lowest Mitigation, Lowest Ability to Absorb Spike Damage, Lowest Avoidance, Lowest Aggro Generation, Second Lowest DPS.</p><p>I'm not happy that we got screwed in ROK and are the lowest in almost every relevant plate tanking stat. And neither is 99.9% of the SK's on these forums.</p><p>Please bring SK's into balance with the other plate tank classes. Thank-you.</p></blockquote>Class balance in what regards? If you're talking about end game content/raiding then I can see from researching the SK class that they definitely aren't on par with the other classes. But how do they scale compared to the other classes in different apects of the game?Are the other tank classes as dominate soloing?  Do they posess  the same survivablilty as SK's do with their healing abilities? I've read that SK's can be extremely powerful in PvP, how do other tank classes compare in that respect?Now I'm not asking this to call you out on the point you are trying to make, I'm just curious seeing as how I'm still rather new to EQ2 and am really enjoying my SK thus far so I'd like to have a proper understanding of what their strengths/weaknesses are compared to other classes across all forms of content. </blockquote><p>The class balance issue amounst the plate tank classes is related to looking at the core base abilities required to tank effectively in the game.  If you look at the 4 plate tank classes :</p><p>SK's rank 4 of 4 (last) in Mititgation.</p><p>SK's rank 4 of 4 (last) in Aggro/Hate Generation.</p><p>SK's rank 4 of 4 (last) in Hit Points.</p><p>SK's rank 4 of 4 (last) in Avoidance.</p><p>SK's rank 3 of 4 (second last) in Damage Per Second.</p><p>This is a class balance issue, regardless of the play application (solo, group instance, raid, etc. etc.).</p><p>SOE via Aeralik has made it clear the primary role of the Shadowknight is tanking.  Good players with good itemization and CA/Spell Master upgrades have been making up for the class balance deficiencies.  There are many SK's who play thier toons and tank effectively in the game dispite the class balance deficiencies.  But that does not correct the obvious current plate tank class imbalance since the launch of ROK. </p><p>These class imbalance issues have been around for a long time with the SK.  In KOS content, we could compensate for some of the imbalances with massive AOE damage on multi-mob encounters, thus improved Aggro Management.  Those encounters are few and far between in ROK, so the imbalances are more obvious with all of the single mob encounters.  A Guardian in ROK content will generally tank, <b>AND </b>DPS, the pants off an SK, no contest.</p><p>If the class Dev's were so inclined, these imbalance issues could be easily corrected by adjusting our some of our Stances, CA's, and Spell values.  But so far, there has been no work done to improve the situation, only some sound bytes of "long term tanking fixes" in general.  Not helpful.</p>

[Beldin_]

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>  In KOS content, we could compensate for some of the imbalances with massive AOE damage on multi-mob encounters, thus improved Aggro Management.  </blockquote><p>For me that was not a compensation, that was simply what the character class was build for, and what was actual FUN.</p><p>However there are always my special friends, with comments like : " .. blahh ... all to easy .. make mobs more "challenging" .. blahh .."</p><p>So now we have only these "challenging" mobs that hit like trucks, and nothing of the "non challenging" mobs where we could pull groups of 8.</p><p>I really wish i could slap these person in the face each time i read the word "challenge" <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Norrsken]

<cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>  In KOS content, we could compensate for some of the imbalances with massive AOE damage on multi-mob encounters, thus improved Aggro Management.  </blockquote><p>For me that was not a compensation, that was simply what the character class was build for, and what was actual FUN.</p><p>However there are always my special friends, with comments like : " .. blahh ... all to easy .. make mobs more "challenging" .. blahh .."</p><p>So now we have only these "challenging" mobs that hit like trucks, and nothing of the "non challenging" mobs where we could pull groups of 8.</p><p>I really wish i could slap these person in the face each time i read the word "challenge" <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>The thing is they went about the wrong way to make them harder.If they instead made groups of 6 mobs that had a tank that taunted like a proper player, healers and dpsers, then we'd have mobs that are harder, yet still not breaking the game for some classes. hell, CC would even start to mean more than "lock down the adds".

[Beldin_]

<p>Harder" in this Universe means sadly only : More Burst Damage .. more HPs.</p><p>I didn't know if should laugh or cry, when i heared in TS, while playing AoC, that some friends tried Runny2, and the tank (a Guardian), was 1-hitted 4-5 times with 50k hits <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Really .. challenging fights for me can be longer, but should also have the chance that, if MT goes down, maybe a scout can jump in and tank until T is up again. For me at least it is NO fun, that if MT goes down, all you could do is search for a suicide-key.</p><p>But yeah ... give all Mobs 100k hits, or why not 1 million .. </p>

[evilgamer]

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>SK's have the lowest core tanking stat values.  Lowest Mitigation, Lowest Ability to Absorb Spike Damage, Lowest Avoidance, Lowest Aggro Generation, Second Lowest DPS.</p></blockquote><p>I am sorry but this is clearly an exagerration.  </p><p>Your mitigation is way ahead of brawler mitigation , same with your ability to absorb spike damage.</p><p>Your avoidence is no worse then paladin avoidence from what I have seen.</p><p>But yeah your aggro sucks and your dps is to low.</p><p>SK's arent as "broken" as some of you make them out to be, but they could defineatly use some tweaks.</p>

[Beldin_]

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>SK's have the lowest core tanking stat values.  Lowest Mitigation, Lowest Ability to Absorb Spike Damage, Lowest Avoidance, Lowest Aggro Generation, Second Lowest DPS.</p></blockquote><p>I am sorry but this is clearly an exagerration.  </p><p>Your mitigation is way ahead of brawler mitigation , same with your ability to absorb spike damage.</p><p>Your avoidence is no worse then paladin avoidence from what I have seen.</p><p>But yeah your aggro sucks and your dps is to low.</p><p>SK's arent as "broken" as some of you make them out to be, but they could defineatly use some tweaks.</p></blockquote><p>Pala has much better avoidance, my SK had something like 31% in offense and 41% in def stance, and i had already sacrificed all +int and +damge items for more STR/AGI and +Def <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And the last time i played my SK i took around 700k damage in a CoA-run, while my Bruiser only took 400k when i tanked it once with her.</p><p>However this is just blue Heroic content, after all i heard it gets harder for bruisers against mobs of higher level.</p>

[evilgamer]

<cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pala has much better avoidance, my SK had something like 31% in offense and 41% in def stance, and i had already sacrificed all +int and +damge items for more STR/AGI and +Def <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <p>And the last time i played my SK i took around 700k damage in a CoA-run, while my Bruiser only took 400k when i tanked it once with her.</p><p>However this is just blue Heroic content, after all i heard it gets harder for bruisers against mobs of higher level.</p></blockquote><p>Please explain to me how paladins have much better avoidence then SK?</p><p>Sheild Block AA?</p><p> Also the bruiser may take less damage against blue mobs, but against yellow stuff like Chelsith it changes fast.</p><p>Also I am sure your SK took alot of damage but almost certainly lifetapped alot of it back, compared to the brusier.</p>

[RanmaBoyType]

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pala has much better avoidance, my SK had something like 31% in offense and 41% in def stance, and i had already sacrificed all +int and +damge items for more STR/AGI and +Def <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <p>And the last time i played my SK i took around 700k damage in a CoA-run, while my Bruiser only took 400k when i tanked it once with her.</p><p>However this is just blue Heroic content, after all i heard it gets harder for bruisers against mobs of higher level.</p></blockquote><p>Please explain to me how paladins have much better avoidence then SK?</p><p>Sheild Block AA?</p><p> Also the bruiser may take less damage against blue mobs, but against yellow stuff like Chelsith it changes fast.</p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;">Also I am sure your SK took alot of damage but almost certainly lifetapped alot of it back, compared to the brusier.</span></b></p></blockquote><p>IMO, sk lifetaps are just not up to par with the incomming damage in RoK.  As you move through heroic content you see this discrepency increase exponentially.</p><p>CoA hits are weak, we lifetap.  Vaults hits a little harder, but our lifetaps don change, Maidens and chelsith harder, lifetaps still dont change.  RE2, mobs spike damage through the roof, yet still the same exact lifetaps we relied on in CoA to compensate for the lack of mit and defensive bonuses the other tanks get.</p>

[Mr. Dawki]

<p>I don't know about you guys but when comparing SKs to other tanks I only compare to plate tanks, brawlers are just a different animal. </p><p>And yes Pallys have more avoidance, through AAs and gear choices aka epic/mythical</p><p>And don't even try to talk about lifetaps, concidering we are mostly talking about a raid situation a SKs lifetaps account for MAYBE 2% of the total incoming dmg healed. A pally mythical by default heals 10% pluss any heals/wards said pally casts on himself. If you took SK1 and SK2 and told one to use lifetaps and one to not use lifetaps on say a Drushk fight, you would see no difference in the two fights other than one may have a 100pt lead in dps because the other was avoiding lifetap spells.</p>

[Beldin_]

In KoS instances my SK often had the same numbers in a heal-parse like druids, in RoK its maybe 10-15%. Reason is massive more incoming damage and also missing aoe encounter, because our once best spell : tap veins, is now nearly worthless <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[evilgamer]

<cite>Mr. Dawkins wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't know about you guys but when comparing SKs to other tanks I only compare to plate tanks, brawlers are just a different animal. </p></blockquote><p>We are not that different, we avoid damage, warriors avoid/mitigate, crusaders heal/mitigate.</p><p>I was just disputing that SK's have the worst mitigation of all the tanks, when it simply is not true, obviously plate >leather.</p><p>I still think SK's have better surviability then brawlers do due to lifetaps/mitigation.</p><p>I have seen SK's tank epics, most brawlers go splat against epic stuff.</p>

[Mr. Dawki]

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mr. Dawkins wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't know about you guys but when comparing SKs to other tanks I only compare to plate tanks, brawlers are just a different animal. </p></blockquote><p>We are not that different, we avoid damage, warriors avoid/mitigate, crusaders heal/mitigate.</p><p>I was just disputing that SK's have the worst mitigation of all the tanks, when it simply is not true, obviously plate >leather.</p><p>I still think SK's have better surviability then brawlers do due to lifetaps/mitigation.</p><p>I have seen SK's tank epics, most brawlers go splat against epic stuff.</p></blockquote><p>This is why our monk is the pickup tank when our MT dies rather than our crusader (who is a pally) </p><p>because brawlers go splat.</p>

[Margen]

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mr. Dawkins wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't know about you guys but when comparing SKs to other tanks I only compare to plate tanks, brawlers are just a different animal. </p></blockquote><p>We are not that different, we avoid damage, warriors avoid/mitigate, crusaders heal/mitigate.</p><p>I was just disputing that SK's have the worst mitigation of all the tanks, when it simply is not true, obviously plate >leather.</p><p>I still think SK's have better surviability then brawlers do due to lifetaps/mitigation.</p><p>I have seen SK's tank epics, most brawlers go splat against epic stuff.</p></blockquote><p>No one said that SK had worse mitigation then Brawlers, if you looked at the listing by one of the previous posters he was comparing us to other plate tanks.  </p><p>Brawlers aren't built for raid tanking, that might not be right but its the way it is.  They are suppose to fill a dps/utility role.  And you all out dps us by quite a bit (as it should be), Monks fill this role well currently with their Raid Buff.  If they ever tweaked the bruiser buff to being worth anything then you all would find slots, unfortunatly your buff is like ours, looks better on paper then in reality.  In the group setting where your avoidance works you all do fine.</p><p>But the problem for SKs is that if we aren't tanking we add very little, poor utility and poor dps makes things kind of tough getting in a raid when you are also 4th on the tanking list due to machanics.  Thats the issue for us, you all have much better dps and if they ever fixed your raid buff you all would be fairly well off.</p>

[Tiberuis]

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>SK's have the lowest core tanking stat values.  Lowest Mitigation, Lowest Ability to Absorb Spike Damage, Lowest Avoidance, Lowest Aggro Generation, Second Lowest DPS.</p></blockquote><p>I am sorry but this is clearly an exagerration.  </p><p>Your mitigation is way ahead of brawler mitigation , same with your ability to absorb spike damage.</p><p>Your avoidence is no worse then paladin avoidence from what I have seen.</p><p>But yeah your aggro sucks and your dps is to low.</p><p>SK's arent as "broken" as some of you make them out to be, but they could defineatly use some tweaks.</p></blockquote><p>My posts in this thread about class balance issue are clearly in reference to the plate tank classes.  </p><p>Brawlers and Monks are avoidance tanks, totally different animals IMHO.  I'm sure most plate tanks would agree.</p><p>You are incorrect about Pally avoidance vs. SK.  Do some research, it is clear.</p><p>You are <b>absolutely correct</b> about our DPS and Aggro sucking.  </p><p>For the Dev's : Please bring the SK into balance with the other plate tank classes.  Thank-you.</p>

[evilgamer]

<cite>Blackoath@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Brawlers aren't built for raid tanking, that might not be right but its the way it is.  They are suppose to fill a dps/utility role.  And you all out dps us by quite a bit (as it should be), </p></blockquote><p>This is why brawlers are [Removed for Content], we dps just under rouges like we should.</p><p>But our tanking is light years behind the plate classes in raids.</p><p>Tank balance should go like this:</p><p>dps: brusier > monk > zerker > SK > paladin > guard</p><p>surviability guard > paladin > SK > zerker > monk > bruiser</p><p>aggro should be the same across all classes. The high surviablity classes should rely more on taunts and the lower surviablity classes should rely on dps to hold aggro.</p><p>The gap between brawler tanking and zerker tanking right now is far greater then the gap between brawler dps and zerker dps.</p><p>We barely out dps the warriors, but their tanking is light years ahead of ours in raids.</p>

[Gisallo]

<cite>Porphyry@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I've tanked VP named several times. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>We're not "[Removed for Content]," we're just different than your guardian types.  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>Yeah but it takes a HECK of a lot more work to keep you going tanking than other tank classes.  My Guild has an SK main tank.  He ROCKS.  At the same time though I know he rocks because he is so dang diligent at knowing how to play his class and itemization and because we make sure he has the best dang support in his group.  You can have a "good" Guardian tank VP.  It takes a GREAT/ god of an SK to tank VP and really the plate wearers should be balanced, a strength here for a weakness there.  Thats all blown to pot.

[Oakum]

<cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BMonkeeus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote</cite> <blockquote><ul><li>More tradeskill quests - god forbid the maxed out TS'ers (who eat, drink and breathe boredom) get uh...bored.</li></ul></blockquote>LoL @ that one...</blockquote><p>Hey back off the TS dev, she's the only who's actually engaging the community and responding to it's needs, class balance ain't domino's job/speciality, and has deffinately been one of the most kick but devs around.  She came into the SK forums asks for feedback and now at level 20+ you can get a 4 to 6 second dealyed crafted/MC weapons, there's a dev that earned her paycheck.</p><p>*edited for really lame spelling/grammer mistakes, that'll teach me for posting at work <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p>Besides, the crafting side is only 140 AA's behind the adv side. She has a long way to go to get caughtup. In some ways the crafting side is just as far behind as the tanking side of SK's if not more since it started when crafting didnt get any aa's when the adventuring side did. Your not alone, anyone who crafts is also behind compared tot he adventuring side of the game. </p><p>Then there are us wardens who havent had any raid utility since LU-13 and the big combat revamp and been left way behind on the dps side of being a druid who buffs healers and agi, just like fury's, have no good group dps buffs like furys and no decent MT buffs like cleric and shaman. Furys also have that issue. The agility buff that druids get raises the MT's avoidance by less then a percent whenever I have checked on a raid tank and about 1-2 for a non raid tank.</p><p>The good thing is that at least the dev's are saying your tank issues will be looked at. Wardens have never had a statement like that since KoS came out and the issues grew to more then just having no raid utility that the combat revamp left us with.  </p><p>Good luck though on getting things changed now but I believe that the next time they will address class shortfalls will be with the rumoured new AA tree with the expansion. </p>

[Beldin_]

<cite>Oakum wrote:</cite><blockquote>Good luck though on getting things changed now but I believe that the next time they will address class shortfalls will be with the rumoured new AA tree with the expansion. </blockquote>I've heared rumors that guardians get a tree where they can dual-wield with the buckler line, while SKs get a +4 extra defense buff every 30 minutes for 5 seconds <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />