Guardian beatdown repeat from DoF with LU47

[Rastod]

<p>About 2 yearsish ago SOE made guardians useless with changes in DOF.  I left went to WoW didn't feel it came back and got back into raiding and it seemed things had leveled back out.  </p><p> I log on today and see that i have lost 8% mit and 6% avoidance.  </p><p>My guild JUST beat druushk 2 weeks ago and last week put her down pretty soundly again.  (3rd attempt)</p><p>We have may great progress on Nexona. and probably going to see her drop... wait</p><p>LU47</p><p>Drusshk double taps are going to eat me alive again.  Oh look SoE decided to not change one thing pretty big (my epic) they also hit up my shields.  It also seems mit was lowered on a few other pieces that I had just happened to be wearing.   I busted my hump to farm for these items and farming harvest for days to pay for adorns.  For what now?  Second rate stuff I would have never wasted on items with the current numbers.</p><p> We bust our humps to farm gear so we can raid and beat progress.  I understand a adjustment here and there but to hit us that hard at once what do you think its going to do to our progress?  Do you think I am going to be able to play and keep competing at that level after such a hit in my abilities?  Guardians struggle to tank VP level mobs and hold agro as is and you making it so we have to give up more agro generation to replace that lost mit/avoid?  </p><p> This is the flaw in MMO games is developers unleash so much at once and even with "test server" still manage to ruin the game for players. </p><p>Be realistic and adjust things slightly in small increments.  </p><p>This is reasons why folks get feed up and quit games.  I am posting everywhere I can in hope it will make a difference but at this point its looking like SOE could be loosing the money my family pays to play.  </p>

[Armawk]

Noone is going to ever choose any other tank class over Guardian for raiding, so what are you worried about exactly? Your enormous advantage over other tank classes possibly being eroded slightly?

[therodge]

you have come to the wrong place for sympathy, as a guardian you wont get anything better then an fu, *hands u a flame sheild) GL

[Evette23]

Not exactly sure what nerfs you're talking about, cuz I haven't logged onto my guardian in a couple weeks. But if they changed the shields like I heard they were going to, that's not a guardian nerf. Other classes use those shields too. I do think the guardian mythical epic nerf is lame and unnecissary though.

[Antipalad]

Yes, a reduction in dmg absorbance on mythical weapon. Go delete your guards everyone, sky is falling.

[Evette23]

Yup. Sucks.

[Devout Disciple]

<p>Although I don't honestly feel simpathetic to a guardian, brawler, or dps I will respond here whether liked or not.</p><p>Games like these are currently awarding the DPS by the devs of these games.  We're never going to feel like we last as long in defense to a MOB as the DPS feels powerful of taking down the MOB so quickly.  The company that figures this out in its game design is going to have a fun game for those players.  Either that or the concept of tanking needs to dissapear.</p><p>Nothing can compare to what us shadowknights face though.  DoF was an absolute tragedy for the crusader all around though.</p><p>I just think SOE hates tanks or the players that play them and are moving towards a NGE scenario bit by bit.  When I say that I mean an exodus of subscribers.  It's the only scenario I've reached since I feel dead/souless/like dirt when logging in now on the SK and people not wanting SKs.</p><p>Devs of MMOs need to stop nerfing for the top geared players of the game and actually realize there are other customers playing the game.  I don't expect that to happen when the page of eq2 players was more concerned about showing epic moments than showcasing anything else.</p>

[liveja]

<cite>Devout Disciple wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Nothing can compare to what us shadowknights face though. </p></blockquote><p>If you're talking strictly of raids, you (might) have a point.</p><p>If you're talking about group content, then I'm sorry, but SKs do just fine tanking heroic group content.</p>

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>agree with a few posters.</p><p>the shields reflect everyone, not just guardians.  </p><p>the change to the guardian myth.  come on be realistic.  saying your myth was not overpowered is just like swashies saying reach was not overpowered in pvp.  /god mode off please.</p><p>And agree, my Sk has no issues in group content.  However raid targets hurt bad.  real bad.</p>

[zormik]

lol, man, seriously, if there's one class that's op in this game it's the guardian lol!

[victer]

<cite>Rastod wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>Guardians struggle to tank VP level mobs and hold agro as is</p></blockquote><p><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>you sir need to go back and play WOW</p>

[Ama]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Devout Disciple wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Nothing can compare to what us shadowknights face though. </p></blockquote><p>If you're talking strictly of raids, you (might) have a point.</p><p>If you're talking about group content, then I'm sorry, but SKs do just fine tanking heroic group content.</p></blockquote><p>Actually even with group content we are moving towards that harder end scenario stuff.  My Shadowknight has probably 1 maybe 2 pieces of raid gear with the rest being rewarded from quests or bought from the broker.  His avoidance tops out at 50% and his mitigation with despoiling mist T7 master I can reach to 60-61%.  However I go down like a stone thrown into a pond with the mobs in RE2.  Even the regular even con ^^^ have double attacked me to 10% health then died to them.  </p><p>Heck I still have a 75-80% chance of dieing to Drusella even with raid geared raid knowledgeable people backing me up.  </p><p>Shadowknights really get the poo end of the stick to put it bluntly.  Shadowknights don't bring anything useful to a raid PERIOD and people need to stop making stuff up.  "O we can dps we're great dps tanks" that's a load of crap if I ever heard it.  I've seen people have 2-3 extra slots in raids and they absolutely refuse to have a shadowknight in it.  They'll wait and make sure to get 1-2 extra assassins, a wizard or even a warlock.  </p><p>The core issue of the Shadowknight has not been addressed and I don't see it being addressed any time soon. As for our o so "Boost" to our epic weapon bravo *claps hands* bravo now we're just crap instead of "Completely Crap".  </p><p>Going back to group content ya I don't see Shadowknights doing anything except filling spots and being utility to bebuff a mob just a tiny bit. </p>

[deathtoyou5]

if you play on bazaar server then contact vertaunt he willl teach how to become a guardian. (and no not my toon)

[Killerbee3000]

<cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Devout Disciple wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Nothing can compare to what us shadowknights face though. </p></blockquote><p>If you're talking strictly of raids, you (might) have a point.</p><p>If you're talking about group content, then I'm sorry, but SKs do just fine tanking heroic group content.</p></blockquote><p>Actually even with group content we are moving towards that harder end scenario stuff.  My Shadowknight has probably 1 maybe 2 pieces of raid gear with the rest being rewarded from quests or bought from the broker.  His avoidance tops out at 50% and his mitigation with despoiling mist T7 master I can reach to 60-61%.  However I go down like a stone thrown into a pond with the mobs in RE2.  Even the regular even con ^^^ have double attacked me to 10% health then died to them.  </p><p>Heck I still have a 75-80% chance of dieing to Drusella even with raid geared raid knowledgeable people backing me up.  </p><p>Shadowknights really get the poo end of the stick to put it bluntly.  Shadowknights don't bring anything useful to a raid PERIOD and people need to stop making stuff up.  "O we can dps we're great dps tanks" that's a load of crap if I ever heard it.  I've seen people have 2-3 extra slots in raids and they absolutely refuse to have a shadowknight in it.  They'll wait and make sure to get 1-2 extra assassins, a wizard or even a warlock.  </p><p>The core issue of the Shadowknight has not been addressed and I don't see it being addressed any time soon. As for our o so "Boost" to our epic weapon bravo *claps hands* bravo now we're just crap instead of "Completely Crap".  </p><p>Going back to group content ya I don't see Shadowknights doing anything except filling spots and being utility to bebuff a mob just a tiny bit. </p></blockquote><p>every fighter class can tank every heroic content in rok in mc with a single healer (exception being x2 in re2 which has a tad more requirements), besides, a sk actually tanked avatar of flame on runnyeye (ok, that one wasnt exactly in mc gear) then surely a sligthly nerfed guardian can still tank just fine. </p>

[Shammydavis]

<p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">All I have to say is yes we guards are overpowered and with good reason we have to get hit more than any other class and live while 23 others are kicking said mobs butt. It is all about surivability and if your mt can't then you will never progress in t8. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">We have a sk as main ot and he owns idk but he might just be better than most sk's he can tank anything I can including vp and he dosen't have any vp loot at all.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">I think that if your not able to tank a zone and your mt has some vp loot then you need to look for another mt as he isn't doing his job or dosen't understand his/her CA's I have 4 masters and can hit 5-6k parse and thats in deffencive stance true I have good gear but most isn't from vp.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">If your stuck then go to hate and dont kill names farm trash everyday for like 2 weeks then watch your dps and mt own.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">As for the nerfs the shield is crap now useless and the 5% loss sucks but if your main temp/inquizzy have shield ally then it is so minor that we shouldn't even talk about it as I didn't even notice a diffrence.</span></p>

[Windowlicker]

The Guard is super overpowered compared to what it should be.  If this change bothers you, you might want to stop looking at patch notes.  Future patches will only lower it's DPS more, and if we're really lucky .. maybe the survivability won't be touched.

[Deathma]

i always thought it would be cool if palys and SKs had a spell that made them stronger for ever good/evil class they had in their group. Stronger as in maybe their buffs .... or CAs ....or spells do more

[woolf2k]

<cite>Rastod wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>About 2 yearsish ago SOE made guardians useless with changes in DOF.  I left went to WoW didn't feel it came back and got back into raiding and it seemed things had leveled back out.  </p><p> I log on today and see that i have lost 8% mit and 6% avoidance.  </p><p>My guild JUST beat druushk 2 weeks ago and last week put her down pretty soundly again.  (3rd attempt)</p><p>We have may great progress on Nexona. and probably going to see her drop... wait</p><p>LU47</p><p>Drusshk double taps are going to eat me alive again.  Oh look SoE decided to not change one thing pretty big (my epic) they also hit up my shields.  It also seems mit was lowered on a few other pieces that I had just happened to be wearing.   I busted my hump to farm for these items and farming harvest for days to pay for adorns.  For what now?  Second rate stuff I would have never wasted on items with the current numbers.</p><p> We bust our humps to farm gear so we can raid and beat progress.  I understand a adjustment here and there but to hit us that hard at once what do you think its going to do to our progress?  Do you think I am going to be able to play and keep competing at that level after such a hit in my abilities?  Guardians struggle to tank VP level mobs and hold agro as is and you making it so we have to give up more agro generation to replace that lost mit/avoid?  </p><p> This is the flaw in MMO games is developers unleash so much at once and even with "test server" still manage to ruin the game for players. </p><p>Be realistic and adjust things slightly in small increments.  </p><p>This is reasons why folks get feed up and quit games.  I am posting everywhere I can in hope it will make a difference but at this point its looking like SOE could be loosing the money my family pays to play.  </p></blockquote>Proof read your post please.I have no idea what your talking about...

[Amise]

<cite>Shammydavis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">All I have to say is yes we guards are overpowered and with good reason we have to get hit more than any other class and live while 23 others are kicking said mobs butt.</span></p></blockquote>Uhm, I think you have that round the wrong way. As in, you're getting hit more than any other class during raids because no other tank class can compare to a guardian's raid-tanking ability.Back on topic, making changes to two items which some members of class A happen to use doesn't make class A broken.

[Meirril]

<cite>Shammydavis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">All I have to say is yes we guards are overpowered and with good reason we have to get hit more than any other class and live while 23 others are kicking said mobs butt. It is all about surivability and if your mt can't then you will never progress in t8. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">We have a sk as main ot and he owns idk but he might just be better than most sk's he can tank anything I can including vp and he dosen't have any vp loot at all.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">I think that if your not able to tank a zone and your mt has some vp loot then you need to look for another mt as he isn't doing his job or dosen't understand his/her CA's I have 4 masters and can hit 5-6k parse and thats in deffencive stance true I have good gear but most isn't from vp.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">If your stuck then go to hate and dont kill names farm trash everyday for like 2 weeks then watch your dps and mt own.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">As for the nerfs the shield is crap now useless and the 5% loss sucks but if your main temp/inquizzy have shield ally then it is so minor that we shouldn't even talk about it as I didn't even notice a diffrence.</span></p></blockquote><p>5 of those other 24 classes wouldn't mind if you took the OT role and let someone else MT for an expansion or two. Yes, guardians were always inteneded to be the "best" tanks but the others should be able to compete. Right now the deck is definately slanted in the guardian's favor. Honestly, for lots of little reasons the guardians have grown out of their intened role (best survivalbility with taunts to hold agro) and I think there will be an attempt to put them back into it. Call it a nerf if you like, I'll call it reballance.</p><p>As for the gear, I seriously doubt a single peice of it lists only Guardian on its usable class list. If you want to look at all the changes, crusaders got the biggest non-mythical nerf when the Green Dragon Shield lost over 200 protection. Yeah, some guardians used a kite shield because it was the second best shield in the game. Though, if they chose to use a kite shield it ment they lost their class ability to stoneskin themselves and the benifits of the buckler AA line. Yeah, they could use the kite shield if they have their mythical. </p>

[Margen]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Devout Disciple wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Nothing can compare to what us shadowknights face though. </p></blockquote><p>If you're talking strictly of raids, you (might) have a point.</p><p>If you're talking about group content, then I'm sorry, but SKs do just fine tanking heroic group content.</p></blockquote><p>Ok some problems with your statement.</p><p>1. Any fighter can do group content, heck swashys/Brigs can do alot of them.</p><p>2.  Its not like SKs are the great Group tank, we can do the job, but do to agro problems and lack of avoidance we make it a bit more challenging for the group vs some of the other fighters.  Yes we can do it, but its not like we shine at it or anything.</p><p>SKs as has been stated many times, have issues with dps, avoidance, hps and agro control.  This spills over in to both group and raid content, its just becomes more glaring in the raid setting.</p>

[Evette23]

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>If you want to look at all the changes, crusaders got the biggest non-mythical nerf when the Green Dragon Shield lost over 200 protection. <i><b>What? Anyone that uses that shield got nerfed equally.</b></i>Yeah, some guardians used a kite shield because it was the second best shield in the game. Though, if they chose to use a kite shield it ment they lost their class ability to stoneskin themselves and the benifits of the buckler AA line. Yeah, they could use the kite shield if they have their mythical. <p> <i><b>This statement shows how little you know about guardians. Can't stoneskin... what? Can't use stamina line... ever heard of a equipment swap macros?</b></i></p></blockquote>

[tikasa]

<cite>Rastod wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>About 2 yearsish ago SOE made guardians useless with changes in DOF.  I left went to WoW didn't feel it came back and got back into raiding and it seemed things had leveled back out.  </p><p> I log on today and see that i have lost 8% mit and 6% avoidance.  </p><p>My guild JUST beat druushk 2 weeks ago and last week put her down pretty soundly again.  (3rd attempt)</p><p>We have may great progress on Nexona. and probably going to see her drop... wait</p><p>LU47</p><p>Drusshk double taps are going to eat me alive again.  Oh look SoE decided to not change one thing pretty big (my epic) they also hit up my shields.  It also seems mit was lowered on a few other pieces that I had just happened to be wearing.   I busted my hump to farm for these items and farming harvest for days to pay for adorns.  For what now?  Second rate stuff I would have never wasted on items with the current numbers.</p><p> We bust our humps to farm gear so we can raid and beat progress.  I understand a adjustment here and there but to hit us that hard at once what do you think its going to do to our progress?  Do you think I am going to be able to play and keep competing at that level after such a hit in my abilities?  Guardians struggle to tank VP level mobs and hold agro as is and you making it so we have to give up more agro generation to replace that lost mit/avoid?  </p><p> This is the flaw in MMO games is developers unleash so much at once and even with "test server" still manage to ruin the game for players. </p><p>Be realistic and adjust things slightly in small increments.  </p><p>This is reasons why folks get feed up and quit games.  I am posting everywhere I can in hope it will make a difference but at this point its looking like SOE could be loosing the money my family pays to play.  </p></blockquote><p>/sniff   Gaurds got a nurf? /sniff sniff</p><p>All the classes that use those items got the same nurf.   Poor gaurds were not alone in that.    Hopefully the devs will not touch your survivability... but drop your DPS down to about a healers lvl.   Fully raid buffed Gaurds getting 2K dps ... now that would be nice =)</p>

[Yarginis]

<cite>tikasa wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rastod wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>About 2 yearsish ago SOE made guardians useless with changes in DOF.  I left went to WoW didn't feel it came back and got back into raiding and it seemed things had leveled back out.  </p><p> I log on today and see that i have lost 8% mit and 6% avoidance.  </p><p>My guild JUST beat druushk 2 weeks ago and last week put her down pretty soundly again.  (3rd attempt)</p><p>We have may great progress on Nexona. and probably going to see her drop... wait</p><p>LU47</p><p>Drusshk double taps are going to eat me alive again.  Oh look SoE decided to not change one thing pretty big (my epic) they also hit up my shields.  It also seems mit was lowered on a few other pieces that I had just happened to be wearing.   I busted my hump to farm for these items and farming harvest for days to pay for adorns.  For what now?  Second rate stuff I would have never wasted on items with the current numbers.</p><p> We bust our humps to farm gear so we can raid and beat progress.  I understand a adjustment here and there but to hit us that hard at once what do you think its going to do to our progress?  Do you think I am going to be able to play and keep competing at that level after such a hit in my abilities?  Guardians struggle to tank VP level mobs and hold agro as is and you making it so we have to give up more agro generation to replace that lost mit/avoid?  </p><p> This is the flaw in MMO games is developers unleash so much at once and even with "test server" still manage to ruin the game for players. </p><p>Be realistic and adjust things slightly in small increments.  </p><p>This is reasons why folks get feed up and quit games.  I am posting everywhere I can in hope it will make a difference but at this point its looking like SOE could be loosing the money my family pays to play.  </p></blockquote><p>/sniff   Gaurds got a nurf? /sniff sniff</p><p>All the classes that use those items got the same nurf.   Poor gaurds were not alone in that.    Hopefully the devs will not touch your survivability... but drop your DPS down to about a healers lvl.   Fully raid buffed Gaurds getting 2K dps ... now that would be nice =)</p></blockquote>You sir, are an idiot. Not saying the OP isn't because his assessment of the change is equally rediculous, but if what you wish were to happen, the only people left alive in the raid would be some of the bards and healers. Why, because everyone else would be ripping aggro any dying off a tank who was only parsing 2k. You would have 2 double the effectiveness of all +/- hate mods, transfers and so forth & completely remove the cap on them before any tank parsing 2k could hold aggro off a decent raid unless the DPS happened to be afk. A pally with amends on a very good swashy/assassin would be the only tank in game who could even think about holding aggro off a decent raid while only parsing 2k, and even then thats a bit of a stretch. The way hate mods & so forth work, there just wouldn't be enough base hate to mod for a tank parsing at that level to hold he mob. Even if +hategain was capped at 100% instead of 50, you'd still only be modding that 2k dps to an effective 4k, which is just not going to hold of someone parsing 8k+ even in a group with good dehate with any sort of reliability. Tanks have to parse decently to hold aggro, thats just how the game is.Guard's current state is doing nothing more than filling the requirement of what you have 2 have both in terms of offence and defence in RoK to reliably fill the role of raid MT. Random 1 shots DA's really aren't fun past the 2nd or 3rd time, as most other tanks know. Think of how much raids would suck if the MT was frequently getting instakilled like that either due to guards survivability getting nerfed, or their DPS getting nerfed and the raid being forced to swap MT's because the guard could no longer hold aggro. It would make raids a whole lot less enjoyable overall wouldn't it?

[DerFunkBlaster]

Tell your healers to man up and stop slacking... my guild did VP back when it first came out with t7 fabled gear and we managed. Learn to make groups... learn to recruit good players.. learn to call people out when they are sucking. The zone is not hard at all. Infact, it's probably 1 of the easiest zones ever created in eq2 history..

[Evette23]

Easier than forest ruins?

[hellfire]

<cite>Evette23 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Easier than forest ruins?</p></blockquote>almost!

[Killerbee3000]

<cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Evette23 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Easier than forest ruins?</p></blockquote>almost!</blockquote>make sure the mt defiler doesnt sleep on druushk, manage the dps on nex and dont fall asleep on second floor, once you get those 3 things right vp is a pushover.

[Norrsken]

<cite>Killerbee3000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Devout Disciple wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Nothing can compare to what us shadowknights face though. </p></blockquote><p>If you're talking strictly of raids, you (might) have a point.</p><p>If you're talking about group content, then I'm sorry, but SKs do just fine tanking heroic group content.</p></blockquote><p>Actually even with group content we are moving towards that harder end scenario stuff.  My Shadowknight has probably 1 maybe 2 pieces of raid gear with the rest being rewarded from quests or bought from the broker.  His avoidance tops out at 50% and his mitigation with despoiling mist T7 master I can reach to 60-61%.  However I go down like a stone thrown into a pond with the mobs in RE2.  Even the regular even con ^^^ have double attacked me to 10% health then died to them.  </p><p>Heck I still have a 75-80% chance of dieing to Drusella even with raid geared raid knowledgeable people backing me up.  </p><p>Shadowknights really get the poo end of the stick to put it bluntly.  Shadowknights don't bring anything useful to a raid PERIOD and people need to stop making stuff up.  "O we can dps we're great dps tanks" that's a load of crap if I ever heard it.  I've seen people have 2-3 extra slots in raids and they absolutely refuse to have a shadowknight in it.  They'll wait and make sure to get 1-2 extra assassins, a wizard or even a warlock.  </p><p>The core issue of the Shadowknight has not been addressed and I don't see it being addressed any time soon. As for our o so "Boost" to our epic weapon bravo *claps hands* bravo now we're just crap instead of "Completely Crap".  </p><p>Going back to group content ya I don't see Shadowknights doing anything except filling spots and being utility to bebuff a mob just a tiny bit. </p></blockquote><p>every fighter class can tank every heroic content in rok in mc with a single healer (exception being x2 in re2 which has a tad more requirements), besides, a sk actually tanked avatar of flame on runnyeye (ok, that one wasnt exactly in mc gear) then surely a sligthly nerfed guardian can still tank just fine. </p></blockquote>the fun thing there is, MC is the only viable gear for sks until the highest tier raiding set gear.Prettymuch anything else drops the dps of the sk, and sks need their dps to hold aggro.Also, one of the sks best aggro tools (that was made an aggro tool to remedy the crappy aggro control of the sks) were made useless for aggro again in t8 since it wasnt upgraded and now the hate generated isnt enough.And you do know that brigs get about the same stats for tanking and about the same amount of taunts if specced for it as a sk gets right? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Doesnt that sound a tad wrong?

[liveja]

<cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>And you do know that brigs get about the same stats for tanking and about the same amount of taunts if specced for it as a sk gets right? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Doesnt that sound a tad wrong?</blockquote><p>Swashy, too.</p><p>& no, it's not a "tad" wrong, <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">it's wholly wrong</span></b>. IMHO, if Brigs & Swashies are to get hit with a major nerf bat, that's where it needs to hit, & hit <b>hard</b>.</p>

[Beastmage]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>And you do know that brigs get about the same stats for tanking and about the same amount of taunts if specced for it as a sk gets right? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Doesnt that sound a tad wrong?</blockquote><p>Swashy, too.</p><p>& no, it's not a "tad" wrong, <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">it's wholly wrong</span></b>. IMHO, if Brigs & Swashies are to get hit with a major nerf bat, that's where it needs to hit, & hit <b>hard</b>.</p></blockquote>Heh, my guild leader took the time to get a full tank suit with adorns on his brig for when a regular tank isn't available for t1 and t2 zones, and the iksar contested guys.  In raid as mt he pulls about 76% avoidance, 18k hp, and 55% mit.  Of course thats with some of the best available gear, raid and/or otherwise.

[tikasa]

<cite>Shammydavis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">All I have to say is yes we guards are overpowered<b> and with good reason we have to get hit more than any other class and live while 23 others</b> are kicking said mobs butt. It is all about surivability and if your mt can't then you will never progress in t8. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">We have a sk as main ot and he owns idk but he might just be better than most sk's he can tank anything I can including vp and he dosen't have any vp loot at all.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">I think that if your not able to tank a zone and your mt has some vp loot then you need to look for another mt as he isn't doing his job or dosen't understand his/her CA's I have 4 masters and can hit 5-6k parse and thats in deffencive stance true I have good gear but most isn't from vp.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">If your stuck then go to hate and dont kill names farm trash everyday for like 2 weeks then watch your dps and mt own.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">As for the nerfs the shield is crap now useless and the 5% loss sucks but if your main temp/inquizzy have shield ally then it is so minor that we shouldn't even talk about it as I didn't even notice a diffrence.</span></p></blockquote> BS if they would FIX the game 6 classes could tank.   Gaurds NEED a MAJOR nurf!!

[Evette23]

<cite>tikasa wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>BS if they would FIX the game 6 classes could tank. Gaurds NEED a MAJOR nurf!!</blockquote>Keep holding your breath, lemme know how that goes. Nerf brawler KC farming and blue shiny farming btw. Make feign death a 23% chance to work at master1 or something.

[Giral]

<p>the OP said " About 2 yearsish ago SOE made guardians useless with changes in DOF.  I left went to WoW "  </p><p>wish you would have stayed there </p><p>lets Recap Guardians and Sk's from release shall we ? </p><p>Guardians easiest group tank and raid tank ,  Sk fully broken skills most couldnt get invites to tank for groups. or even Invited to a group, not needed for raids </p><p>Dof . Re-vamp the Majority of Guardians we're crying,,,, but low and behold a rare Few guardians were actualy enjoying the new way guardians played and found it a much more challanging experiance . (the ones who didnt left for WOW) ,, but thru there re-vamp and on into Raiding and with tweaks guess what Guardians were the prefered MT for DOF raiding and had no problems Group tanking Anything,,,,,,, SK once again were not needed on raids, had got broken skills fixed and were doing some decent dps nothing major tho , But there agro was made into Tuant over time and Most Sk's had drastic agro issue's. </p><p>KOS ,,,, Guardians Prefered Raid MT and no issue's Group MT,  SK Not needed or wanted for raids, and still having agro issue's., deathmarch was changed late into KOS and Sk's finaly had a Good Agro tool, Missed point is by then Alot of Sk's were max level and/or had decent gear Adpt 3's/Masters so Deathmarch truely seemed Godly, </p><p>EOF  Guardians Prefered Raid MT ..no issues Group Mt,  SK  Not needed for raids But Deathmarch had got Some Sk's in the door for Raids,  by the end of EOF Deathmarch was already not pulling agro becuase now everyone was EOF geared/capped/adpt3/Mastered </p><p>ROK Guardians Hands Down prefered MT for Every raid, Highest or 2nd highest Plate DPS in raids(and no Small Dps at that <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, Great group tank in rok only better group tank would be a Paladin(all the others can do it but these are the 2 best group tanks in ROK) ,,,,,,, SK Not needed or wanted for raids, Deathmarch Sucks in Rok, Last place for Group tank out of ALL tanks(and some scouts Tank instances equal or better then some SK's)  Last to second to last place in Dps out of ALL Tanks ..... </p><p>  Role an SK and then Get back to me kktnhks i have played since release and raided thru every tier on my SK, and OMG i never left for WOW,,,, maybe it never was and still isn't the Guardian who is the issue ?? just sayin ) </p>

[Evette23]

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>i have played since release and raided thru every tier on my SK</blockquote>Yet another shadowknight that raids even though shadowknights never get invited to raids, are useless, and unwanted.

[DwarvesR]

<p>I did a pick-up raid in PR the other night with a Mythical SK as MT.</p><p>OT was a guardian.</p><p>Yah, it's an easy raid overall, but it still speaks well of the SK that he always held aggro and we didn't have any trouble completing the zone, methink.</p><p>Still -- something seems different. I was in Maiden's last night with a Zerk and 2 healers and in spite of them curing and healing and all of that, the named still were beating him down hard.  We all were pretty stumped as to how it was happening.  I've been through Maiden's with this tank and a single healer a couple of times before without issue, so something was definitely changed, and I'm sure it's affecting Guards as well, whatever it is.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>wow, just wow.</p><p>guardians reign supreme and that miniscule nerf barely tapped you at all. this hardly relates to GU13. if you think life is so horrible as a guardian, try rolling one of the other tank classes and do the same job. </p>

[Amokh]

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>Noone is going to ever choose any other tank class over Guardian for raiding, so what are you worried about exactly? Your enormous advantage over other tank classes possibly being eroded slightly?</blockquote><p>Ok, that´s quite funny... our MT is a shadowknight and our OT is a paladin, we killed druushk and nexona is going to be next. Maybe with a Guardian as MT it´s easier, but everything is possible.</p><p>Anoukh</p><p>Die Jadefalken von Qeynos - Innovation</p>

[sliderhouserules]

<cite>Evette23 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>i have played since release and raided thru every tier on my SK</blockquote>Yet another shadowknight that raids even though shadowknights never get invited to raids, are useless, and unwanted.</blockquote>Try looking up Hasty Generalization, or read up on Logical Fallacies, sometime.

[liveja]

<cite>sliderhouserules wrote:</cite><blockquote>Try looking up Hasty Generalization, or read up on Logical Fallacies, sometime.</blockquote><p>The counter-claim, however -- that "no SK ever gets invited to raids" -- is an equally hasty generalization. The fact that one poster's SK "never" gets invited to raids says nothing at all about anyone else's SK. In both cases, we're talking about a General/Specific fallacy.</p>

[Xanrn]

<cite>Evette23 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tikasa wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>BS if they would FIX the game 6 classes could tank. Gaurds NEED a MAJOR nurf!!</blockquote>Keep holding your breath, lemme know how that goes. Nerf brawler KC farming and blue shiny farming btw. Make feign death a 23% chance to work at master1 or something.</blockquote>Brawlers don't farm KC, Casters farm KC.Also Blue Shiny farming was nerfed, its called Lore. Oooh I can farm an entire set of collars from Chardok, destroying aload in the process (seriously was like 15 collars destroyed to get 6 last time). They then sit on my broker for a week or more even as the cheapest. Hell I sold my Gilded Collar yesterday after farming it about 13 days ago.BTW what exactly good would a 23% feign be...

[sliderhouserules]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>sliderhouserules wrote:</cite><blockquote>Try looking up Hasty Generalization, or read up on Logical Fallacies, sometime.</blockquote><p>The counter-claim, however -- that "no SK ever gets invited to raids" -- is an equally hasty generalization. The fact that one poster's SK "never" gets invited to raids says nothing at all about anyone else's SK. In both cases, we're talking about a General/Specific fallacy.</p></blockquote>I agree. I just find the general trend for that particular poster to be egregious with this kind of stuff, so I stopped to call him out.The counter-claim for the SK thing is more valid, however, due to the non-hasty generalization that SKs are lacking in several departments. If you term it exactly how your hypothetical quote is termed then yes, it's invalid, but to say SKs are worse off than other classes is not a hasty generalization.Disclaimer: I don't play an SK.

[Evette23]

I just think it's silly to see all these posts about how noone wants anything but a guardian to raid MT, noone ever invites shadowknights/bruisers, class X can't tank mob B. The fact is it's not exactly easy for a guardian to get a spot in a raid guild either, any plate tank can tank any mob in the game, and almost every raid I've been on and every guild I've been in has had at least 1 shadowknight and brawler. I have only been seriosly raiding since KoS, but I actually see shadowknights around all the time. They <i>seem </i>to me more populated than paladins even. While leveling up alts it seems it's always a shadowknight or brawler tanking. Every pickup raid or alliance raid I've been on seems to have multiple shadowknights who often tank, or brawlers. I have seen a monk successfully tank Venril Sathir when our guild was still working to get him down for the first time. I have seen both brawlers top dps parses quite often (but not while tanking). I look around my server (AB) and see plenty of level 80 raid equipped brawlers and crusaders.I can only speak from my own experiences, and what my experiences tell me is that other fighters are getting raid spots and can tank anything my guardian can tank.  In some situations, they can even do it better. But at the end of the day, guardian is the class with the most tools for mitigating spike damage. Guardian is the class with the most tools for protecting the lives of his group members. And guardian is the class that gets reinforcement. I rolled a guardian with the intent of playing the most durable tank. I picked the tank class that has the most survivability, and sacrifice solo-ability, pvp-ability, dps, and aoe aggro management. I have played other fighter classes (although not to end game) and speaking for myself, put me in another fighter class, give me a proper group setup and I'll still tank like a champ.

[Pelda]

Ha you think LU47 was bad just wait til they "FIX" fighters and nerf the guardians extremely bad.

[Ravaan]

<p>Guards need a bigger nerf ... hopefully its coming soon. I wonder how every other class would feel if only on of the specific archtype was needed for raiding.</p><p>"sorry scouts only the swashbuckler is needed for raids all others are only good for group content".</p><p>I wonder how that would go over? yet thats exactly what happens with tanks.</p>

[liveja]

<cite>sliderhouserules wrote:</cite><blockquote>but to say SKs are worse off than other classes is not a hasty generalization..</blockquote>I tend to agree, but I don't play an SK either, so all I can go on is that I see far fewer SKs than any other tank class. But I see a lot of Pallys, & I wonder how many of them used to be SKs.

[Margen]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>sliderhouserules wrote:</cite><blockquote>but to say SKs are worse off than other classes is not a hasty generalization..</blockquote>I tend to agree, but I don't play an SK either, so all I can go on is that I see far fewer SKs than any other tank class. But I see a lot of Pallys, & I wonder how many of them used to be SKs.</blockquote><p>There is quit a few I guess, I havn't done an indepth study on the subject, but I now at leat 3 SK that betrayed personally.  Plus there has been some on the forms that have stated they are going over to the Pally side.</p><p>You see the same thing with beserkers betraying over to Guards btw.  I know quite a few that did that also.</p><p>As for SK's getting in raids, yes there are a few that actually make it in to raids, but even a lot of them that belonged to good raiding guilds have made other classes and then just bring out their SK if the OT took a night off.  Because a few make it into raids doens't mean that things are where they should be, I bet they are the lowest class repensentation with maybe bruisers competing for that doubious "honor"</p>

[DwarvesR]

<p>FWIW, here are the numbers of level 80 fighters from eq2players --</p><ul><li>SK: 2136</li><li>Paladin: 2324</li><li>Zerk: 2307</li><li>Guard: 3418</li><li>Monk: 2543</li><li>Bruiser: 2131</li></ul>

[Faelgalad]

<p>If you do statistics, do it right! Level 1-50, Char experiments, Level 51-70 serious attempts and high level char corpses, Level 71-80 Active<b> </b></p><p><b>Zerkers: </b>Level 1-50: 178.000Level 51-70: 9480Level 71-80: 4360</p><p><b>Guardians:</b> Level 1-50: 135.000Level 51-70: 9390Level 71-80: 5600</p><p><b>Paladin:</b> Level 1-50: 130.000Level 51-70: 8000Level 71-80: 4420</p><p><b>Shadowknight: </b>Level Level 1-50: 155.000Level Level 51-70: 7363Level Level 71-80: 4044</p><p><b>Monk:</b> Level 1-50: 137.000Level 51-70: 7796Level 71-80: 4658</p><p><b>Bruiser:</b> Level Level 1-50: 91.000Level Level 51-70: 5769Level Level 71-80: 3702</p><p><b>Level 1-50:</b> 1. Zerkers: 178.0002. Shadowknight: 155.0003. Monk: 137.0004. Guardian: 135.0005. Paladin: 130.0006. Bruiser: 91.000</p><p><b>Level 51-70</b>1. Zerker: 94802. Guardian: 93903. Paladin: 80004. Monk: 77965. Shadowknight: 73636. Bruiser: 5769</p><p><b>Level 71-80</b>1. Guardian: 56002. Monk: 46583. Paladin: 44204. Zerkers: 43605. Shadowknight: 40446. Bruiser: 3702</p><p>I guess the numbers talk on their own. Guard Percentage goes up from second lowest to highest, Shadowknight goes down from second highest down to second last. Zerker from Parity in 51-70 to fourth place in 71-80. </p>

[woolf2k]

I'd like to know how do I get my guardian to do Wizard type damage!At least that's how it sounds when some people talk about guardians...yet on the flip side I see just as much talk complaining that guardians are worse than bards...which is it? LOL

[Barakuz]

<cite>Ravaan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Guards need a bigger nerf ... hopefully its coming soon. I wonder how every other class would feel if only on of the specific archtype was needed for raiding.</p><p>"sorry scouts only the swashbuckler is needed for raids all others are only good for group content".</p><p>I wonder how that would go over? yet thats exactly what happens with tanks.</p></blockquote><p>LOL what a dumb comment...how many MT spots are there - now exactly how many potential scout spots are there in the raid force ??? </p><p>There is really one Guard MT spot per raid force...and potentially 2 other OT spots than can easily be filled with any other fighter class. There is one area Guardians shine...raid MT, for everything else every other fighter class can perform as well if not better than a guard.</p><p>Bara</p>

[Faelgalad]

<p>Wrong, </p><p>For hard opponents, all Fighters have to switch to defensive stance, a Guard don't have to do this. You get faster in all Zones with an Guard, except for an well player Paladin-Healer-DD Group. Nothing beats Paladin, Troub, Illu, Warlock, Swashbuckler, Mystic for speed killing zones, thats because only an Paladin can hold full blazing Warlocks. </p><p>And Guards fill 1-2 spots in a Raid, maybe a Change in or full time Paladin and a Monk. End of story. You also not take more then two Assassins with you. </p><p>@Woolf2k</p><p>A wizard without an Troub and Illu doesn't do a lot of damage. </p><p>A Guard without an Dirge and Coercer neither. </p><p>But Guard gets even in Instanced Fabled, Legendary and Mastercrafted easily up to+/- 50% Melee Crit and +/- 75% Double Attack. If you not arm yourself up as high as possible, you don't do much damage <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  The 69% Double Attack by Achivement (KoS+EoF) is the biggest advantage of Guard over Crusaders. The Damage of an well played Guardian gets in the lower end of the Damage Classes and declass all other Tank classes as an packet. Monk/Bruiser do more damage, but have a fraction of surviveability. </p><p>Damage: Monk/Bruiser -> Guard/Zerker -> Shadowknight -> Paladin</p><p>Utility: Monk -> Rest</p><p>Surviveability: Guardian -> Zerker -> Paladin -> Rest</p><p>Aggro: Paladin -> Guardian -> Rest</p>

[Loxus]

<p><span style="color: #000000;"><span style="color: #c0c0c0;"><span style="color: #c0c0c0;">I completely disagree that guards need to be nerfed.  I think they are just fine where they are and calling for the nerf bat is just plain stupid.  I think that the Guardian class should be the standardization for the balancing of the other tanks.  They are, after all, a pure tank model.  What needs to happen is all the other classes need to be brought up to/close to the guardian's lvl utilizing the class defining charictaristics.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #c0c0c0;">The guardian player base didn't have anything to do with the devs showing favoritism to their class (other than them whining and crying back in DOF much like we are now).  Let them enjoy what they have because it works well and it's enjoyable to play.  Bringing the guards down to the rest of us "Misfit toys" is just going to [Removed for Content] everyone off.  I say bring the other tanks up and let the devs sleep in this mess of a bed they made, they (the dev's) are going to screw us all in the end anyway.  Don't help them. </span></p><p><span style="color: #c0c0c0;">BTW I'm/was a SK, I betrayed to a pally because the SK is just too much of a train wreck in their current state for my tastes and Pallys ain't much better, but it's still an improvement more than we are going to see anytime soon with SOE's feet dragging.</span></p><p><span style="color: #c0c0c0;">Loxus Maul</span></p><p><span style="color: #c0c0c0;">member of the Island of Misfit Tanks...er Toys.</span></p>

[Armawk]

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b>Level 71-80</b>1. Guardian: 56002. Monk: 46583. Paladin: 44204. Zerkers: 43605. Shadowknight: 40446. Bruiser: 3702</p><p>I guess the numbers talk on their own. Guard Percentage goes up from second lowest to highest, Shadowknight goes down from second highest down to second last. Zerker from Parity in 51-70 to fourth place in 71-80. </p></blockquote><p>If those numbers are right then I would suggest its close enough that, as far as devs are concerned, that no major changes could be expected. 4044 SK to 5600 Guards is not a dramatic situation at all!</p><p>(I would in reality suggest the stats paint a far too rosy picture, because if there are 4 active raiding/top grouping shadowknights for every 5.6 guardians I would be amazed)</p>

[Meirril]

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b>Level 71-80</b>1. Guardian: 56002. Monk: 46583. Paladin: 44204. Zerkers: 43605. Shadowknight: 40446. Bruiser: 3702</p><p>I guess the numbers talk on their own. Guard Percentage goes up from second lowest to highest, Shadowknight goes down from second highest down to second last. Zerker from Parity in 51-70 to fourth place in 71-80. </p></blockquote><p>If those numbers are right then I would suggest its close enough that, as far as devs are concerned, that no major changes could be expected. 4044 SK to 5600 Guards is not a dramatic situation at all!</p><p>(I would in reality suggest the stats paint a far too rosy picture, because if there are 4 active raiding/top grouping shadowknights for every 5.6 guardians I would be amazed)</p></blockquote><p>The numbers above say who's played what to what level. It doesn't say how much they get played, anything about raiding or gear. Paladins are very popular for tanking instances. Guardians don't have any trouble either. I enjoy a good group that has a monk that feels confident tanking. I generate hate having monks along that only want to DPS. I dislike the lack of confidence and question why they bothered rolling a fighter to begin with. I've taken plenty of shadow knights along as DPS late late at night or when I've seen them LFG for over an hour. I've got a lot more respect for the ones that form groups and tank instances, but since I'm either tanking or following another guild tank along most of the time I don't group a lot with SKs. </p><p>All of this changes when it comes to raids. Guardians are the first pick for MT. Only when a well equipped guardian isn't available does the raid leader start looking at other tanks. Then its generally paladin next, probably because I haven't seen a whole lot of active Bezerkers. It just seems like they have dried up and started playing alts waiting for when they are welcome again.</p><p>Yeah, I'll agree with a pervious poster. Leave the guardians alone. Improve the other fighters to reach the level they are at now.</p>

[sliderhouserules]

<cite>Loxus@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>...<p><span style="color: #000000;"><span style="color: #c0c0c0;"><span style="color: #c0c0c0;">calling for the nerf bat is just plain stupid.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000;"><span style="color: #c0c0c0;"><span style="color: #c0c0c0;">...</span></span></span></p></blockquote>Yeah, because mudflation is a good thing, right? All classes should just be increased to godly power, with no regard to overall balance? Trivialize all the content and let the devs spend the next year rebalancing all the encounters?Please.Calling for nerfs on certain classes when they're needed is not stupid. It may not be "politically correct", or whatever term applies in this context, but it is most certainly not stupid.

[Windowlicker]

Guardian needs to have its damage output decreased, and it's taunts increased to offset the loss in hate.  Otherwise, it's taking hits as it should, and everything else is working well.That's it.  The nerf shouldn't be that large, just a decrease in overall damage output.Remember people, the idea is to balance the class not screw it up.  Just because it's currently dishing out too much damage is no indication it should be beaten into a useless state.EQ2 needs to move into a model for tanking that allows each tank (Plate tank, I'm not talking about you leather people) to tank content on a somewhat equal level.  The Guardian should always be the plate tank capable of taking hits the best.  That's what it was designed for.What it shouldn't be doing, is out damaging the other plate tanks.  That being said, it needs to have the tools to hold aggro with low DPS.The problem right now is that tanks are holding aggro via DPS.  That needs to change.

[Faelgalad]

<p>Five classes calling for improvement all the time -> Nothing happens. </p><p>If one class imbalance five other classes, nerf that class!</p><p>Either way, bring equal gaming possibilities. That Guards don't like the idea of nerfing, understandable. </p><p>But the majority of 5 Tank classes are fed up with being the black sheep. </p><p>@Meirril</p><p>Statistic is as it is, what the whole level statistic shows, that with more players beginning an SK, less bring it to Level 80, while less people start a guard and they bring it up. Also the Zerker->Guard and SK -> Paladin Movement can be seen in that numbers. And 5600 to 4000 is huge, that is 7x Guards on 5x SK's in Level 71-80 or in Percentage, 140% Guards to SK's. </p>

[Veshtan]

<p>I was one of those "whiny" Guardians who couldn't "hack" it after the changes in DoF.  (I play a monk now, and am thoroughly enjoying it)  What some people fail to realize is that while some people only complain because they were hit with the nerf bat, regardless of whether the nerf was needed or not (and sometimes they are), often the nerf is WAAAY overboard and boarders on nerfing the class into oblivion.  This is what happened with DoF and Guardians.  Why do you think Guards are so overpowered today?   Because they were nerfed too severely in DoF, this was realized, and so they went on a campaign to "fix" them.   As per usual with SOE, they can't find a medium ground.  Either they nerf to near oblivion, or they buff to overpowered.</p><p> I'm not saying that that Guards shouldn't be tweaked, but some of you really need to stop, pull your head out, and realize what you're saying.  You're sitting here talking about raid raid raid raid raid raid as if that's all that matters, that when you create a Guard, you're instantly 80 and you step right into the raid scene and that's all you do.   Are Guards the best raid MT?  Sure.  Should the be?  Yes, i think so.  Should they be so much better than the other fighters at this job?  Probably not.   Should you nerf a guard so that his  damage output is so anemic that all he can do is be MT because of massive taunts but his ability to solo when needed means it takes him years to kill a simple non-heroic mob?  Definitely no.  And this is what some of you are talking about doing.  This is what was done during DoF and this is why i left.   I'm not huge into raiding, but i like to have a guardian that i can solo with and then help others out with heroic content when needed.   The problem was, i could do the heroic content, but the soloing was ridiculous.</p><p> I know, i know.  Some of you think that dumping damage down to 2k would still allow a person to solo.  I understand that you THINK this is the case, but what if you're wrong?  What if doing that turns it into another DoF?  Where Guardians leave in droves because there's more to the world than raiding?  I remember that time very well.   Our harp was never that we couldn't MT, it was that the changes that were made made it impossible for us to be anything but be an MT.   How much fun is it to level for 80 levels of hell just so you can be an MT?  Not much.</p><p> I'm not saying that Guardians don't need fixes, or that others don't either.  But please think about what you're saying before you say it.  Instead of constantly asking for Guards to be nerfed so you can howl with glee when it happens (yes, i know that appeals to a lot of people's baser instincts, to enjoy other's misfortunes) ask for your class to be buffed somewhat while Guards are only nerfed somewhat.  That way you meet in the middle.  Wholesale nerfs that drastically change the way a class is played only make people angry, and rarely ever truly bring "balance" to a class.</p>

[Shammydavis]

<p>Think on this if you nerf to much you may lose alot of your mt's and if the buff to others isnt enough well then raiding will be way harder and then alot of others will quit or w/e, so think of all the way down the line befor you post this drivle.</p>

[DasanW]

<cite>Shammydavis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Think on this if you nerf to much you may lose alot of your mt's and if the buff to others isnt enough well then raiding will be way harder and then alot of others will quit or w/e, so think of all the way down the line befor you post this drivle.</p></blockquote>Then Guardians would be back in line with other tanks.. wow, revelation incomming  - dare I say BALANCE?  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[LygerT]

<p>zerker is just an easy way to level a guardian, i even recommend it to people who want to roll a main tank type of character and i'm pretty sure those numbers reflect that.  </p><p>i don't mind being an offtank, i mean i've done it for so long that if i was forced to MT i'm not exactly the best at it, offtanking is what i learned and what i'm best at. you can't bring the other tanks up to the guardian level because then you will still have imbalances, such as if a zerker took hits as well as a guardian yet we retained our AEs, then we would be a superior utility main tank, alternatively you could give guardians our AE ability but then what? you may as well consolidate classes at that point to save the headache... guardian dps is too high currently but there is no easy way to bring it down in line with other tanks without a huge revamp to the hate generation system.</p><p>at this point in time you either accept what you got and hope for small tweaks to help and make the best of it or reroll to the class that suits you best as things change. </p>

[liveja]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Guardian should always be the plate tank capable of taking hits the best.What it shouldn't be doing, is out damaging the other <strike>plate</strike> tanks. </blockquote><p>Truth, except for that one word I crossed out.</p>

[Geothe]

<p>Guardian Agro holding is right where it should be.Their net DPS is too high.Cut the damage of all guardian CAs by 50%, and add to them an equal amount of +threat.Drop the autoattack in a similar manner, with a new buff (no conc slot) that adds an equivilent amount of hate to each autoattack hit.</p><p> Then bring the other tank classes up to the same net agro building abilities.IE. Zerkers. CAs/Autoattack do more straight up damage, and dont have the +threat portions guards have.</p><p>SKs: Increase their damage a good deal to bring them up.</p><p>etc etc</p>

[Veshtan]

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Guardian Agro holding is right where it should be.Their net DPS is too high.Cut the damage of all guardian CAs by 50%, and add to them an equal amount of +threat.Drop the autoattack in a similar manner, with a new buff (no conc slot) that adds an equivilent amount of hate to each autoattack hit.</p><p> Then bring the other tank classes up to the same net agro building abilities.IE. Zerkers. CAs/Autoattack do more straight up damage, and dont have the +threat portions guards have.</p><p>SKs: Increase their damage a good deal to bring them up.</p><p>etc etc</p></blockquote><p>Two problems i see with this right off.  </p><p> One....do you realize how much 50% is?  You're basically asking for SOE to take a class and make them 50% less effective.   I'm sure you don't see it that way, and if one has blinders on and sees raids as being the only portion of the game that exists, it might make sense.  Once again, this game encompasses a lot more than just raiding.   A wholesale nerf to damage across the board is going to effect a lot more than just how Guards are perceived in raiding.</p><p> Two....If you're going to up their taunts, and make it so the only way for them to keep aggro is through taunting, and not DPS, you darn well better make those taunts unresistable.   With the anemic amount of DPS you want to saddle a Guard with, if one of these uber-taunts you want to give them gets resisted.....well, i'm sure you can imagine the mess that would cause.</p><p> Trying to find a solution isn't bad.  Making suggestions isn't bad.  I don't even play my guard anymore.  I'm STILL too bitter about what happened....and that was years ago.  Yep, i should probably let it go.  My point is, massive nerfs don't work.   Never have...never will.  You make one part of the population wildy angry while the other side gloats....right up until it swings the other way.   Why do i say this?  Well.....DoF.....massive guard nerf.   Hmmmm...now here we are, a few years later.....guards are too overpowered again.   Why?  Because it was realized that they were nerfed WAY too hard in DoF and so they were given some loving...too much of it, it would seem.   Another massive nerf will only start the cycle over again.</p>

[Margen]

<cite>Veshtan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Guardian Agro holding is right where it should be.Their net DPS is too high.Cut the damage of all guardian CAs by 50%, and add to them an equal amount of +threat.Drop the autoattack in a similar manner, with a new buff (no conc slot) that adds an equivilent amount of hate to each autoattack hit.</p><p> Then bring the other tank classes up to the same net agro building abilities.IE. Zerkers. CAs/Autoattack do more straight up damage, and dont have the +threat portions guards have.</p><p>SKs: Increase their damage a good deal to bring them up.</p><p>etc etc</p></blockquote><p>Two problems i see with this right off.  </p><p> One....do you realize how much 50% is?  You're basically asking for SOE to take a class and make them 50% less effective.   I'm sure you don't see it that way, and if one has blinders on and sees raids as being the only portion of the game that exists, it might make sense.  Once again, this game encompasses a lot more than just raiding.   A wholesale nerf to damage across the board is going to effect a lot more than just how Guards are perceived in raiding.</p><p> Two....If you're going to up their taunts, and make it so the only way for them to keep aggro is through taunting, and not DPS, you darn well better make those taunts unresistable.   With the anemic amount of DPS you want to saddle a Guard with, if one of these uber-taunts you want to give them gets resisted.....well, i'm sure you can imagine the mess that would cause.</p><p> Trying to find a solution isn't bad.  Making suggestions isn't bad.  I don't even play my guard anymore.  I'm STILL too bitter about what happened....and that was years ago.  Yep, i should probably let it go.  My point is, massive nerfs don't work.   Never have...never will.  You make one part of the population wildy angry while the other side gloats....right up until it swings the other way.   Why do i say this?  Well.....DoF.....massive guard nerf.   Hmmmm...now here we are, a few years later.....guards are too overpowered again.   Why?  Because it was realized that they were nerfed WAY too hard in DoF and so they were given some loving...too much of it, it would seem.   Another massive nerf will only start the cycle over again.</p></blockquote><p>I understand where you are coming from, no one likes nerfs and its always a problem when a nerf hits too hard.  But the problem is when you compare the Guardian to other plate tank classes there is a major issue.  </p><p>Guardians are approching Beserker dps and outpace the SKs dps by quite a bit (especially in defensive).  Plus they have the best defense and 2nd best agro of all the plate tanks.  There is only room for two plate tanks in a raid and its been argued that Guards can fill both those slots, really for the OT role the only class better is the paladin due to both classes agro tools.  </p><p>If you increase SK and Beserker dps to over a Guards, the dps classes will scream nerf.  If you increase our defensive abilities to compete with a Guards you know they will scream nerf (numerous examples of Guards saying they should be the only choice for Raid tank in these forms).  So what choices does that leave?</p><p>According to the devs the only purpose of plate tanks is to tank, meaning some change HAS to be made on balancing the classes or these post will keep popping up and there will be alot of venting by the other fighter classes.</p>

[Gungo]

<cite>Devout Disciple wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Although I don't honestly feel simpathetic to a guardian, brawler, or dps I will respond here whether liked or not.</p><p>Games like these are currently awarding the DPS by the devs of these games. We're never going to feel like we last as long in defense to a MOB as the DPS feels powerful of taking down the MOB so quickly. The company that figures this out in its game design is going to have a fun game for those players. Either that or the concept of tanking needs to dissapear.</p><p>Nothing can compare to what us shadowknights face though. DoF was an absolute tragedy for the crusader all around though.</p><p>I just think SOE hates tanks or the players that play them and are moving towards a NGE scenario bit by bit. When I say that I mean an exodus of subscribers. It's the only scenario I've reached since I feel dead/souless/like dirt when logging in now on the SK and people not wanting SKs.</p><p>Devs of MMOs need to stop nerfing for the top geared players of the game and actually realize there are other customers playing the game. I don't expect that to happen when the page of eq2 players was more concerned about showing epic moments than showcasing anything else.</p></blockquote>You do realize the mythical is a top geared players reward? which makes your post pointless since the nerf ONLY effects top geared players.

[LygerT]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Guardian should always be the plate tank capable of taking hits the best.What it shouldn't be doing, is out damaging the other <strike>plate</strike> tanks. </blockquote><p>Truth, except for that one word I crossed out.</p></blockquote><p>if your guard is out DPSing leather tanks, they suck. plain and simple. </p><p>now saying that, it's hard to suck as any tank class while pushing out DPS, what they likely suck at is either their gear is poor, their group makeup is poor or they just do not know how to arrange their equipment to optimize their class. </p>

[Veshtan]

<cite>Blackoath@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I understand where you are coming from, no one likes nerfs and its always a problem when a nerf hits too hard.  But the problem is when you compare the Guardian to other plate tank classes there is a major issue.  </p><p>Guardians are approching Beserker dps and outpace the SKs dps by quite a bit (especially in defensive).  Plus they have the best defense and 2nd best agro of all the plate tanks.  There is only room for two plate tanks in a raid and its been argued that Guards can fill both those slots, really for the OT role the only class better is the paladin due to both classes agro tools.  </p><p>If you increase SK and Beserker dps to over a Guards, the dps classes will scream nerf.  If you increase our defensive abilities to compete with a Guards you know they will scream nerf (numerous examples of Guards saying they should be the only choice for Raid tank in these forms).  So what choices does that leave?</p><p>According to the devs the only purpose of plate tanks is to tank, meaning some change HAS to be made on balancing the classes or these post will keep popping up and there will be alot of venting by the other fighter classes.</p></blockquote><p>LOL, yeah...it's not easy, is it?  I think that's why you see so many nerf cries.  It's the "easiest" solution.  I don't think it's the right one, but that may be because i hate nerfs, not because it won't work.</p><p> I'll be the first to admit that from what i've seen, there's definitely an issue, a rather large one.  I'm simply wanting to point out that the cry for massive nerfs shouldn't be the first solution that a person always jumps to....it should be the last....after all other avenues have been exhausted.</p><p> The biggest problem i have with the massive nerf to guard DPS that so many are calling for is that they are making no qualifications to it.  They want it across the board.  For what?  Raiding.   Lets face it.  That's the issue here.  Guardians are too overpowered when it comes to raiding and stomp all over the other fighters for usefulness.  But the solution to this that is constantly spouted would affect alot more than raiding.  It would affect a guards ability in all aspects of the game.  Solo, Heroic and Raid.   So what these people are basically asking for is to nerf a guard so they are balanced for raiding but then are massively broken for solo and group play.  For some reason, people just don't see that, or don't want to see that.  This is what was done with DoF.  Nerf for balance with raiding with no objective view of the consequences to solo and group play.  Lets learn from the mistakes of the past and not repeat them.</p><p> The best solution would be something that would nerf DPS output during raid situations but leave it untouched for everything else.  The difficulty with implementing such a solution is probably staggering.  Which is likely the reason nothing has been done so far.   I wish the solution were easy.  I'm not saying nothing should be done.  Just don't be so hasty with a solution that obviously won't work but support it because it's expediant and don't worry about the unintended side affects of said nerf.</p>

[sliderhouserules]

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Devout Disciple wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Although I don't honestly feel simpathetic to a guardian, brawler, or dps I will respond here whether liked or not.</p><p>Games like these are currently awarding the DPS by the devs of these games. We're never going to feel like we last as long in defense to a MOB as the DPS feels powerful of taking down the MOB so quickly. The company that figures this out in its game design is going to have a fun game for those players. Either that or the concept of tanking needs to dissapear.</p><p>Nothing can compare to what us shadowknights face though. DoF was an absolute tragedy for the crusader all around though.</p><p>I just think SOE hates tanks or the players that play them and are moving towards a NGE scenario bit by bit. When I say that I mean an exodus of subscribers. It's the only scenario I've reached since I feel dead/souless/like dirt when logging in now on the SK and people not wanting SKs.</p><p>Devs of MMOs need to stop nerfing for the top geared players of the game and actually realize there are other customers playing the game. I don't expect that to happen when the page of eq2 players was more concerned about showing epic moments than showcasing anything else.</p></blockquote>You do realize the mythical is a top geared players reward? which makes your post pointless since the nerf ONLY effects top geared players. </blockquote>This is entirely *not* the case, since mythicals are sold for a few hundred plat.I went to Chelsith with a guard who had middle-of-the-road gear, lots of quest items I recognized, even a few (good) treasured pieces in the mix. Not a single piece of fabled on him (except for maybe Thuuga). He had his mythical. He outparsed my wizard. If your response to that is learn to play my wizard better you can shove it, cause I know how to play. The group was a melee group, but to have the guard outparse my wizard is entirely ridiculous.Mythicals are not an end-game, top-geared-players-only concern.This whole thread needs to be locked and the discussion continued in one of the "fix other tanks" threads, because guards are irrefutably overpowered in their current state.

[LygerT]

it's not as hard as it  may sound actually, a max cap of ~50-75% haste/dps for guardian would bring their DPS numbers down to a reasonable level while not affecting their soloability and wouldn't hurt their heroic parses all that badly. the next step would be the taunt augmentation steps through group and raid buffs to offset the loss to DPS.

[Gilasil]

<p>After all is said and done, guardians should still have one raid spot. Perhaps as MT.  What's needed is for the other fighters to have raid spots too.  Even bruiser.</p><p>But keep in mind what others have mentioned.  There's more to the game then raiding.</p><p>What's really messing things up is when people feel like they need multiples of other classes in the raid thus kicking other classes out altogether.</p>

[Margen]

<cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>After all is said and done, guardians should still have one raid spot. Perhaps as MT.  What's needed is for the other fighters to have raid spots too.  Even bruiser.</p><p>But keep in mind what others have mentioned.  There's more to the game then raiding.</p><p>What's really messing things up is when people feel like they need multiples of other classes in the raid thus kicking other classes out altogether.</p></blockquote><p>That does cover one of the major problems right now.  If they increased my SKs surviability and agro a bit, still keeping it below Guards, plus balanced the dps to where it should be for fighters you wouldn't see quit as much anger from many in the fighter community.</p><p>But the problem is also that fighters excluding monks really dont bring much to raid enviroment outside tanking at this time.  In EOF they gave us the raid buffs to increase our desirability for raiding but the buffs either completly sucked (beserkers) or with the new Itemization in ROK they became useless (Paladins and SKs come to mind on that).</p><p>They need to give fighters uses outside tanking, which either means debuffs, buffs or dps.  So that raid leaders will think about bringing a SK or Bruiser or whatever vs the 4th Bard or 3 Illsionist..</p>

[Banerm]

Instead of a mass nerf, how about appropriate buffs? Perhaps make leather tanks, Zerkers and Crusaders all viable tanks for most any given situation? I don't see why one tank class should be pigeon holed into the end all be all of main tank status. I came from EQ1 raiding and yes warriors were the dominant tank. SKs and Pallies were the multi-mob trash tanks with the exception of a very few outstanding ones who got a chance to MT some of the larger bosses i.e. Aten Ha Ra, Quarm, Tunat`Muram Cuu Vauax etc. I think overall SOE wanted EQ2 to have a balanced tank system where any tank (assuming proper gear/spells) could effectively tank a raid, group or do enough damage to solo well. Frankly it needs to get to that point without nerfing other classes to do so.I've always pulled for the underdog tanks I raided as a Pally in EQ1 a Feral Druid in WoW and would love for my bruiser main to eventually be a raid viable tank. But just in case I made one of each tanks and have been leveling em up. I enjoy tanking, what can I say. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />So bottom line is people think guard dps is way to high as it is right? So compensate by bumping everyone else up (including dps classes). Give the other tanks better mitigation/aggro abilities and utility and call it a day.<b><i><span style="font-family: tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color: #00ff00;">Vote for Multicore and GPU Support in 08!!</span><span style="color: #00ff00;">!Oh and 54 man raids!!!</span></i></b>

[Arinwulf]

<p>Any dev that thinks that the only role for plate class fighters is tanking, should take a couple of weeks off and READ some of the copious amounts of fantasy out there.   Fighters kill things, they are NOT just bloody meat shields.   The meat shield only role is an inbred=born philosophy that has plagued SOE for too long.  They need to bury it.  EQ2 originally started out with plate fighters being able to do more than just get beat on.  Like most SOE products they managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.    Aerilak or whatever the hell your handle is, you are so far out of touch from what the plate fighter class community wants that I just don't see how you can effectively do your job anymore.  Take that 2 week vacation I suggested, read, maybe play other MMOGs and LEARN something.  Its Devs like you with your horrible attitude toward customers that drives people everyday away from SOE products.   Your product is rotting from the inside and you Devs need to FIX it or enjoy life on the unemployment line.  The MMOG market will go through a shake out and right now, EQ2 is not looking too good compared to a lot of other games with regard to subs. Despite what your marketing "people" say, you can't promo yourselves out of this spiralling decline.  </p>

[Gilasil]

<cite>Arinwulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Any dev that thinks that the only role for plate class fighters is tanking, should take a couple of weeks off and READ some of the copious amounts of fantasy out there.   Fighters kill things, they are NOT just bloody meat shields.   The meat shield only role is an inbred=born philosophy that has plagued SOE for too long.  They need to bury it.  EQ2 originally started out with plate fighters being able to do more than just get beat on.  Like most SOE products they managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.   </p></blockquote>This needs to be repeated a LOT.  I don't know if SoE is capable of thinking out of their self imposed box enough to actually accomplish anything, but they really do need to.

[Pitt Hammerfi]

How many posts do devs want about SK's before they open thier eyes ?

[LygerT]

a few more

[Giral]

post

[Banerm]

<cite>Pitt Hammerfist wrote:</cite><blockquote>How many posts do devs want about SK's before they open thier eyes ?</blockquote>It's not just SK's that need help. Bruiser is a great example of this. Simply all fighters -guards.

[Tiberuis]

<cite>Pitt Hammerfist wrote:</cite><blockquote>How many posts do devs want about SK's before they open thier eyes ?</blockquote><p>There are hundreds - perhaps thousands - of posts all over these forums - especially the SK forums - about the current sad state of the SK in relation to class balance.  The Dev's are well aware this, make no mistake about that.  The dev's have made a conscious decision to NOT do ANYTHING to help the SK class achieve balance with the other plate tanks, for quite some time now.  Not sure why.</p><p>Last in Hit Points.</p><p>Last in Mitigation.</p><p>Last in Aggro Generation.</p><p>Last in Avoidance.</p><p>Owned by Warrior Class Plate Tanks in DPS.</p><p>The Mighty SK.</p><p>Thanks for nothing SOE.</p>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Last in Hit Points.</p></blockquote><p>Not really, I was just looking on the worldwide 100 leaderboard for HP and I believe there was an SK at #9 and #12.  I realize these are the highest of the elite, but there's a good mix of all the fighters on that list and on the separate server top-100 lists.</p><p>You guys can do a pile of things the other fighters will never be able to do.  How loud would you yelp if guardians got a Harm Touch?  "Balance" does not mean equality, and it never will.  Templars don't heal over time like a Druid, yet both are priest classes.  Troubadors don't backstab like an Assassin yet they are both scouts.  Shadowknights are way deep in hybrid territory, and so you should be aware that you're going to be very adequate at many things but not spotlight material on any of them, certainly not on aspects of fighters where the pure subclasses dominate.</p>

[evilgamer]

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Last in Hit Points.</p></blockquote><p>Not really, I was just looking on the worldwide 100 leaderboard for HP and I believe there was an SK at #9 and #12.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Yes really.  The fighter classes get differing amounts of hitpoints/power per point of sta/str/wis/int.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Brawlers more hps per point of sta, followed by warriors, then crusaders.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Crusaders get more power per point of the relevant stat (str, int, wis) followed by warriors, and then brawlers.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Given that itemization is not [Removed for Content] (a stretch)</span> <span style="color: #ff0000;">and and equal level of gear in terms of hitpoints it should go </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">brawler>warrior>crusader</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">and in terms of power pool</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">crusader> warrior> brawler.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Pallies can self buff their hitpoints I believe, SK's get a sta buff, but I dont think its as effective as the the paladin one.</span></p><p>I realize these are the highest of the elite, but there's a good mix of all the fighters on that list and on the separate server top-100 lists.</p><p>You guys can do a pile of things the other fighters will never be able to do.  How loud would you yelp if guardians got a Harm Touch?  "Balance" does not mean equality, and it never will.  Templars don't heal over time like a Druid, yet both are priest classes.  Troubadors don't backstab like an Assassin yet they are both scouts.  Shadowknights are way deep in hybrid territory, and so you should be aware that you're going to be very adequate at many things but not spotlight material on any of them, certainly not on aspects of fighters where the pure subclasses dominate.</p></blockquote>

[Windowlicker]

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You guys can do a pile of things the other fighters will never be able to do.  How loud would you yelp if guardians got a Harm Touch?  "Balance" does not mean equality, and it never will.  Templars don't heal over time like a Druid, yet both are priest classes.  Troubadors don't backstab like an Assassin yet they are both scouts.  Shadowknights are way deep in hybrid territory, and so you should be aware that you're going to be very adequate at many things but not spotlight material on any of them, certainly not on aspects of fighters where the pure subclasses dominate.</p></blockquote><p>This is correct.  If you pick a hybrid class (Fighter/DPS for example), expect to be good at both but no where near the best at either.  If your looking to be the best?  Then pick a pure-class designed for that purpose.</p>

[evilgamer]

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You guys can do a pile of things the other fighters will never be able to do.  How loud would you yelp if guardians got a Harm Touch? </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">How loud would you yelp if SK's got Reinforcement or tower of stone?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Please, this is not EQ 1, dont act like all warriors get is auto attack, kick, and a taunt button.</span> </p><p>  "Balance" does not mean equality, and it never will.  Templars don't heal over time like a Druid, yet both are priest classes.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Correct, but no one priest class totally outshines all other priest classes, they way guardians outshine all other tank classes.</span> </p><p>Troubadors don't backstab like an Assassin yet they are both scouts.  Shadowknights are way deep in hybrid territory, and so you should be aware that you're going to be very adequate at many things but not spotlight material on any of them,</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Except that is not the case, Sk's are the worst or almost the worst at everything that matters, aggro, dps, surviablity.</span></p><p> <span style="color: #ff0000;">Please explain to me how a supposed "offensive tank" being out dpsed by a supposed "defensive, pure" tank with vastly superior aggro and surviablity is even remotely balanced.  Yet, that is pretty much the current state of affairs </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">when comparing a Sk to a guard.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I dont hate on guards, but lets be honest here, you guys clearly outshine all other tank classes at the moment, even the developer has achknowledged this, the chips will fall where they may.</span></p><p> certainly not on aspects of fighters where the pure subclasses dominate.</p></blockquote>

[evilgamer]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This is correct.  If you pick a hybrid class (Fighter/DPS for example), expect to be good at both but no where near the best at either.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">First of all, there are no "hybrid" classes in EQ2.  Fighters are fighters, scouts are scouts, etc, etc.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">"Hybrid" refers to the old class system in EQ1 where certain classes mixed certain other abilities with one another.  SK's in EQ 1 for instance got some warrior abilities, but cast lower level necro spells.  SOE eventually figured out that this does not work very well and in later EQ1 expansions SK spells were completely unique to their own.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">In EQ2, Sk's do not get a single necro spell,  Sk's are not "figher/dps" they are a fighters that cast spells and are  supposed to do give up <b><u>a bit</u></b> of surviability for<u><b> a bit</b></u> more offense and utility.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Except that isnt the way it has happened.  Currently Sk's only out dps paladins, but have the worst aggro of any fighter, and the worst plate class survialbity.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Everything else being equal in Rok, a guardian will outdps a sk, due to poor itemization.  </span> <span style="color: #ff0000;">For instance, w</span><span style="color: #ff0000;">hen a guard gets a + melee crit item, it affects all their combat arts and their melee.  For a Sk it affects only melee and roughly half  of their spells/CA, not to mention having to juggle that extra stat (int).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Sk's really do need a signficant boost and their itemization needs fixed, no more relying on the int stat +spellcrit and + melee crit just needs to be + crit, same with melee and spell damage.</span></p><p> If your looking to be the best?  Then pick a pure-class designed for that purpose.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Well by this logic then, guard dps needs a huge nerf, since you are the "pure tank" class.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I<span style="color: #ff0000;"> dont think guards need nerfed, </span></span><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">I think aerlik is correct by stating that all the non-guardian tanks need a boost to their surviablity, to compete with guardians.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">Just like there is no "supreme" priest class, there should be no "supreme" tank class.  Each should be able to do their defined role (tank) as equally as the others in their archtype, but in a different way, exactly how the priest classes work.</span></span></p></blockquote>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><b></b><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">... they are a fighters that cast spells</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">...</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Last time I checked, fighters that have martial skills <b><u>and</u></b> spellcasting are called hybrids.  I'm looking in my personal window and I don't see Ordination, Subjugation, Disruption... gee if nobody's a hybrid, where's mine?</p>

[evilgamer]

<cite>%Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">... they are a fighters that cast spells</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">...</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Last time I checked, fighters that have martial skills <b><u>and</u></b> spellcasting are called hybrids.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Then you must have been checking the wrong game, because in EQ 2 they are called cruaders, not hybrids.  Hybrid was an EQ 1 term.</span> </p><p> I'm looking in my personal window and I don't see Ordination, Subjugation, Disruption... gee if nobody's a hybrid, where's mine?</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Because warriors dont cast spells, lol, what is your point.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You act like being able to cast spells is an advantage in this game for a melee, guess what its not.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">All the peeps I know that play priest classes that can turn their spells into CA, do so. (warden, mystic, inq).  The first line I picked up on my inq alt was the battle cleric line and my solo ablity and dps went thru the roof when doing so.  Because for a melee toon  CA > spells by a large margin.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Ask any bard or crusader, if given the chance would they rather rely on two stats vs one and turn all their spells into CA, 99% of them would do so, with a few roleplaying diehards holding out.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Lets count the advantages vs disadvantages of spell casting melee vs pure melee</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Spell casting adv:</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">- Cast from a distance, pretty much meaningless to a tank class or a class thats primarry dps comes from melee.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Spell casting disadvantage:</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">-Interupts</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">-Much longer cast times.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">-Having to rely on two stats instead of just one</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">-Crappy itemization, +crit on your guard works on your CA and your melee attack, + spell  crit on a SK only works on about half of their attacks and none of their melee, making it half as useful.  With so much + crit gear in ROK, its easy to see why the so called "defensive guard" now does signficantly more dps then the so called "offensive SK", in addition to vastly superior survivablity and aggro.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Now before you say "but SK  can FD, heal, evac", guess what so can brawlers, and scouts and they cast no spells either lol.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You are stuck in an eq 1 mentality, where the ablity of SK and paladins to cast spells really meant something.  In EQ 2 CA are pretty much just like spells, except they cant be interupted, cast much quicker.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Now I am not hating on guards, nor calling for a nerf, but to sit there and act like the ablity to cast spells is somehow and advantage for a melee or tank, is honestly a complete joke.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I am glad the developers have finally realized that the other non guard fighters in this expansion are hurting a bit and change are supposedly being implemented to correct the situation.  Only time will tell.</span></p></blockquote>

[Callim]

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">... they are a fighters that cast spells</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">...</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Last time I checked, fighters that have martial skills <b><u>and</u></b> spellcasting are called hybrids.  I'm looking in my personal window and I don't see Ordination, Subjugation, Disruption... gee if nobody's a hybrid, where's mine?</p></blockquote><p>Its been said before, but its worth saying again.</p><p>In EQ1 Hybrids who got spells were advantaged because of it.  Rangers could root and snare and heal, rogues could not.  SK's could snare, FD, heal, nuke, warriors could not.  However in EQ2, this notion that spells make a class like a SK or Pally a hybrid is HUGE Disadvantage. </p><p>There is no bonus, or upside to what YOU and those who always seem to not understand the EQ2 system to being a spell/ca user.  What you call hybrid, we who play SK's or Pallys (along with classes like bards, summoners, etc) call a very bad crutch.</p><p>As a SK having spells means that instead of needing melee crit items, I need equal amounts of melee and spell crit.  I don't need +CA items, I need equal amounts of +CA and +Spell items.  I don't need only Str to determine my damage, I need equal amounts of Str and Int from items and buffs.  I don't need just Str for my power, I need equal amounts of Str and Int.</p><p>NONE of the itemization in this game supplies the above, none of it.  The system is broken flat out, and we fall behind because of it.</p><p>As for the awesome ability to "CAST" as a "Hybrid Tank!"....well thats even more of a punishment to us.  We have 1-3s cast times as the norm, not 0.5 like Warriors or Brawlers for the majority of our abilities.   More than half of our abilities can and are constantly interupted and delayed, some of them becoming completely unusable in tanking situations, Brawlers and Warriors don't have this issue.</p><p>As a SK I can cast a super handy reactive ward on myself.  However it takes 2s to cast, and if I have 1 mob on me that will be anywhere from 2s to 6s trying to cast it.  If I have 2 or more mobs? well theres a fair chance it'll get interupted 2-3 times before landing.  Using it as a tank costs me roughly 9k hate in agro in the best case scenario (2-3s casting), or 20k+ hate in agro at the worst (interupted all 3 times, never casts).</p><p>Warriors and Brawlers don't have the above problem.</p><p>If I want to cast my largest damage spell? Well Tubby that'll be 2s if your lucky, 6s if your not....</p><p>Would you trade the chance of 6s doing 0 agro in exchange for a 2k nuke?  Well if we want to use our awesome "hybrid spells" these are the choices and problems we face.</p><p>In closing, please drop this rediculous concept of some imaginary "hybrid" bonus, because its so wrong its just insulting.</p>

[Margen]

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Last in Hit Points.</p></blockquote><p>Not really, I was just looking on the worldwide 100 leaderboard for HP and I believe there was an SK at #9 and #12.  I realize these are the highest of the elite, but there's a good mix of all the fighters on that list and on the separate server top-100 lists.</p><p>You guys can do a pile of things the other fighters will never be able to do.  How loud would you yelp if guardians got a Harm Touch?  "Balance" does not mean equality, and it never will.  Templars don't heal over time like a Druid, yet both are priest classes.  Troubadors don't backstab like an Assassin yet they are both scouts.  Shadowknights are way deep in hybrid territory, and so you should be aware that you're going to be very adequate at many things but not spotlight material on any of them, certainly not on aspects of fighters where the pure subclasses dominate.</p></blockquote><p>First on hps, look at our abilities vs Guards or in fact any fighters.  We have only ONE sta buff thats it no hp buffs, we can increase our hps by 4pct if we go down the stamina line and spend 8 points in that ability.  So some SK that has all the gear in the world might make the list ... so what if you compare another fighter with equal gear they will own the SK in hps.</p><p>You can have HT if you lose your Double attack and all the other abilities guards get that make them over powered. Its a 15 min timer (13.5 if you max str line) and it does 7k to 13k (you might get a slightly stronger hit once in a blue moon), plus if your tanking it will do even less since we lose intelligence buff.  Look on the SK form, there is a joke thread on changing the name to things like gentle carresse, death tickle etc.... it does nothing for our dps.</p><p>Your post pretty much show you like Guardians being overpowered and want to keep other tanks at the back of the bus, just be honest about it vs putting forth bogus arguments.</p>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<cite>Tubby@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Its been said before, but its worth saying again.</p><p>In EQ1 Hybrids who got spells were advantaged because of it.  Rangers could root and snare and heal, rogues could not.  SK's could snare, FD, heal, nuke, warriors could not.  However in EQ2, this notion that spells make a class like a SK or Pally a hybrid is HUGE Disadvantage. </p><p>There is no bonus, or upside to what YOU and those who always seem to not understand the EQ2 system to being a spell/ca user.  What you call hybrid, we who play SK's or Pallys (along with classes like bards, summoners, etc) call a very bad crutch.</p><p>As a SK having spells means that instead of needing melee crit items, I need equal amounts of melee and spell crit.  I don't need +CA items, I need equal amounts of +CA and +Spell items.  I don't need only Str to determine my damage, I need equal amounts of Str and Int from items and buffs.  I don't need just Str for my power, I need equal amounts of Str and Int.</p><p>NONE of the itemization in this game supplies the above, none of it.  The system is broken flat out, and we fall behind because of it.</p><p>As for the awesome ability to "CAST" as a "Hybrid Tank!"....well thats even more of a punishment to us.  We have 1-3s cast times as the norm, not 0.5 like Warriors or Brawlers for the majority of our abilities.   More than half of our abilities can and are constantly interupted and delayed, some of them becoming completely unusable in tanking situations, Brawlers and Warriors don't have this issue.</p><p>As a SK I can cast a super handy reactive ward on myself.  However it takes 2s to cast, and if I have 1 mob on me that will be anywhere from 2s to 6s trying to cast it.  If I have 2 or more mobs? well theres a fair chance it'll get interupted 2-3 times before landing.  Using it as a tank costs me roughly 9k hate in agro in the best case scenario (2-3s casting), or 20k+ hate in agro at the worst (interupted all 3 times, never casts).</p><p>Warriors and Brawlers don't have the above problem.</p><p>If I want to cast my largest damage spell? Well Tubby that'll be 2s if your lucky, 6s if your not....</p><p>Would you trade the chance of 6s doing 0 agro in exchange for a 2k nuke?  Well if we want to use our awesome "hybrid spells" these are the choices and problems we face.</p><p><span style="color: #ffff99;">In closing, please drop this rediculous concept of some imaginary "hybrid" bonus, because its so wrong its just insulting.</span></p></blockquote><p>Tubby, I never referred to it as a hybrid bonus or upside.  On the contrary I agree with you that being a hybrid is actually an encumbrance if you want to excel in one of the aspects that the pure fighters are designed to do better.  True, Guardians can stand there and take a hit the best of all the fighters, nobody argues that (usually).  But the trade-off is we don't get any of the other fighters' nice heals, wards, cures, fear, mez, resurrect, pets, FD... the list goes on.  It's a trade-off, and an SK is a more balanced overall character, while Guardians get a more restricted but more focused set of skills that allow them to excel in a particular aspect of gameplay.</p>

[Callim]

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>Tubby, I never referred to it as a hybrid bonus or upside.  On the contrary I agree with you that being a hybrid is actually an encumbrance if you want to excel in one of the aspects that the pure fighters are designed to do better.  True, Guardians can stand there and take a hit the best of all the fighters, nobody argues that (usually).  But the trade-off is we don't get any of the other fighters' nice heals, wards, cures, fear, mez, resurrect, pets, FD... the list goes on.  <b>It's a trade-off, and an SK is a more balanced overall character, while Guardians get a more restricted but more focused set of skills that allow them to excel in a particular aspect of gameplay.</b></p></blockquote><p>**Bold is mine**</p><p>There is no overall character balance, why won't this stick in people's heads?  You solo just as well in tier 8 as a crusader, you do 2x the damage, you take hits far better, your utility such as group hp buff, group skill buff, temp mitigation buffs, stoneskins, etc etc etc are >>>>> FD and self ward that helps us lose agro.</p><p>We are not a more balanced overall character, we are severely deficient in the specifics that regulate how tanking works in this game in all aspects compared to warriors.</p>

[Tiberuis]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You guys can do a pile of things the other fighters will never be able to do.  How loud would you yelp if guardians got a Harm Touch?  "Balance" does not mean equality, and it never will.  Templars don't heal over time like a Druid, yet both are priest classes.  Troubadors don't backstab like an Assassin yet they are both scouts.  Shadowknights are way deep in hybrid territory, and so you should be aware that you're going to be very adequate at many things but not spotlight material on any of them, certainly not on aspects of fighters where the pure subclasses dominate.</p></blockquote><p>This is correct.  If you pick a hybrid class (Fighter/DPS for example), expect to be good at both but no where near the best at either.  If your looking to be the best?  Then pick a pure-class designed for that purpose.</p></blockquote><p>lol</p><p>/sigh</p><p>Last in Hit Points.  Guardian > SK</p><p>Last in Mitigation.  Guardian > SK</p><p>Last in Aggro Generation.  Guardian > SK</p><p>Last in Avoidance.  Guardian > SK</p><p>Owned by Warrior Class Plate Tanks in DPS.  Guardian >SK</p><p>These are ALL of the core skill competencies for tanking.</p><p><i>Adequate?  </i></p><p><i>Hybrid?  </i></p><p>What a bunch of nonsense.  The primary role of an SK is tanking.  The SK class is not even close to being balanced with the Guardian - or any other plate tank class - in the overall core skill competencies required for high end tanking in this game.</p><p>Give your head a shake.  Your response defies all reasonable logic.</p><p>SOE : Please bring the SK class into tanking balance with the other plate tank classes.</p>

[dawy]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Devout Disciple wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Nothing can compare to what us shadowknights face though. </p></blockquote><p>If you're talking strictly of raids, you (might) have a point.</p><p>If you're talking about group content, then I'm sorry, but SKs do just fine tanking heroic group content.</p></blockquote>One of my lads rolled a SK i just laughed at him and said there were well crap,but just lately i've been quite impressed with him/them,indeed to the point were i may even roll one myself

[Rainmare]

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Tubby, I never referred to it as a hybrid bonus or upside. On the contrary I agree with you that being a hybrid is actually an encumbrance if you want to excel in one of the aspects that the pure fighters are designed to do better. True, Guardians can stand there and take a hit the best of all the fighters, nobody argues that (usually). But the trade-off is we don't get any of the other fighters' nice heals, wards, cures, fear, mez, resurrect, pets, FD... the list goes on. It's a trade-off, and an SK is a more balanced overall character, while Guardians get a more restricted but more focused set of skills that allow them to excel in a particular aspect of gameplay.</p></blockquote>I really do both hate and love this arguement. I get nice heals, cures, rez....none of which are useful. I can't cure while tanking. I can't heal while tanking, and my rez is a joke at best. it has a 1m range. you literally have to die at my feet for me to rez you while tanking.You can't FD while tanking. Fearing while tanking is a BIG no no. again, tell me what the point of mezzing while tanking would be?you AREN'T restricted. You DPS into the low end of mage/scout dps. none of your abilites are hampered while tanking. the 'hybrid' BS doesn't apply here. in EQ1, I was a hybrid becuase I could do thigns while tanking. primarily becuase like SKs I think, I coudl root a mob off me, back up, self heal/rez the dead and then go back to tanking.about the ONLY thing I, as a paladin have on a Guard is Fear Immunity...and maybe aggro, provided my amends target is competent and we don't all wipe in the event they prove less so.we don't have your HP. we don't have your mitiagtion, we don't have your avoidance. we don't hold a candle to you DPS wise anymore. we have no 'snap aggro'...well I have Holy Ground, but once that's down, I almost always lose aggro right back to the person that had it before I hit it.the fighter classes primary function, the function they are SUPPOSED to do, is Tank. currently, the only one that actually gets to enjoy that primary role is usually a guardian. not that an crusader/brawler can't do it in heroic content, but why should they? why bring a paladin, when a guardian can do the job faster, and better. why risk a raid to have a Pally MT, when a Guard makes it 10X easier. and SKs and bruisers...well the very suggestion just gets you laughed at. thier lucky they get a spot on a raid to begin with.In fact, I've been kicked out of RE2 groups at the final named simply becuase it's at least twice as hard to keep me alive then it is a guard.we're not more 'overly-balanced' overly balanced means I coudl tank, not as well as a guard, but then I coudl bring more to a table then just tanking...which can be done reliably WHILE I'm tanking. If I coudl self heal/ward while tanking without risking a wipe or losing aggro, I'd probably not be annoyed.But that doesn't help SKs, and it doesn't help brawlers. Gaurds either need a nerfbat swat, or the other fighter classes need some serious upgrading. in fact, if they are going to make the Guard the undisputed Raid Main Tank, then they need to go back to EQ1, and rebuild the paladin/SK as equals to be THE group tanks.that's how it was in EQ1. a Warrior was the raid MT. no ifs, ands, or buts. but a Paladin or an SK was the group tank, becuase they had group/raid buffs, and such benifits that the warriors didn't have.so why don't we do that. lets make all a guardians skills self only. no more group buffs from you at all. then lets make all the buffing ability from SKs and Paladins group/raid wide. even add in a few buffs. give Paladins back thier Brell line, give SKs something similar.then lets see how they enjoy it. they can be Raid MTs all they want, but lets see how they like it when they have to plead or beg to tank group content. see how fast the crap hits the fan.and that, right now, is what Sks/Bruisers are going through. they have to practically beg to get to enjoy group AND raid content, and not even in a tanking position. Paladins apparently have a firm toehold at the least on the OT position, vying for it against Zerkers(those that are left/haven't betrayed) and Guards. Monks have thier nice raid buff at least.

[Gnevil]

Same old arguement same old responses.And it applies only to raid scenerio.  Which is how much of a percentage of the actual game population at large?Sorry but only 2 spots in a raid get filled by a plate tank.  2 of 24 spots.  There are 4 plate tanks that means 50% of them are left out in the cold no matter what.Sorry that you feel you are not good enough to be a raid maintank, or conversely that most guilds use X class as their main tank.  But thats raiding and that's the way it is.Now drop down the majority of the population which isn't in a raid guild raiding...   Group content and solo content and I don't see very much to complain about, any of the tanks can and do tank any of the group/solo content in the game.  You say you can't get a group, that's you personal issue then as these days its guild groups first pickup groups rarely.But when I do group out of guild I will pretty much join any tank in any instance.  Some are good some are ok some are really really bad.  But that's the risk you take in pickup groups.As far as Guards being overpowered.  Nope all they do is tank gang that's it they bring absolutely nothing else to a group or a raid.  And in a group situation outside of RE2 where I prefer a pally... they really aren't spectacular unless we have an ideal group makeup.  Most of the time a swash or brig does it faster and better.But then it's all opinions and you all know what they say about them...

[evilgamer]

<cite>Gnevil wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Same old arguement same old responses.And it applies only to raid scenerio.  Which is how much of a percentage of the actual game population at large?Sorry but only 2 spots in a raid get filled by a plate tank.  2 of 24 spots.  There are 4 plate tanks that means 50% of them are left out in the cold no matter what.Sorry that you feel you are not good enough to be a raid maintank, or conversely that most guilds use X class as their main tank.  But thats raiding and that's the way it is.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Few other things that used to be "the way it is"</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">- Buildings were constructed with asbestos.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">-Smoking was not thought to be harmful</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">- Doctors thought leeches & bleeding  were good for you.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Just because something is tradition or past practice does not mean it was a good idea or even desirable.</span></p><p>Now drop down the majority of the population which isn't in a raid guild raiding...   Group content and solo content and I don't see very much to complain about, any of the tanks can and do tank any of the group/solo content in the game.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Well I am not so sure about RE 2, I think all the  fighter classes could do the final mob with fabled out gear, but I really doubt either of the brawlers or a SK could in legendary gear.</span>You say you can't get a group, that's you personal issue then as these days its guild groups first pickup groups rarely.But when I do group out of guild I will pretty much join any tank in any instance.  Some are good some are ok some are really really bad.  But that's the risk you take in pickup groups.As far as Guards being overpowered.  Nope all they do is tank gang that's it they bring absolutely nothing else to a group or a raid.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">What exactly do any of the other fighter classes bring to the group, besides tanking.  The only agument I can see is brawlers can do some decent dps when speced right.  Your right guards are not overpowered, the other classes are just underpowered, imo. Some more then others.</span> </p><p>  And in a group situation outside of RE2 where I prefer a pally... they really aren't spectacular unless we have an ideal group makeup.  Most of the time a swash or brig does it faster and better.But then it's all opinions and you all know what they say about them...</p></blockquote>

[Windowlicker]

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>/sigh</p><p>Last in Hit Points.  Guardian > SK</p><p>Last in Mitigation.  Guardian > SK</p><p>Last in Aggro Generation.  Guardian > SK</p><p>Last in Avoidance.  Guardian > SK</p><p>Owned by Warrior Class Plate Tanks in DPS.  Guardian >SK</p><p>These are ALL of the core skill competencies for tanking.</p><p><i>Adequate?  </i></p><p><i>Hybrid?  </i></p><p>What a bunch of nonsense.  The primary role of an SK is tanking.  The SK class is not even close to being balanced with the Guardian - or any other plate tank class - in the overall core skill competencies required for high end tanking in this game.</p><p>Give your head a shake.  Your response defies all reasonable logic.</p><p>SOE : Please bring the SK class into tanking balance with the other plate tank classes.</p></blockquote>No where did I say that the SK didn't need some attention.  I was simply pointing out that you will never be a Guardian when it comes to tanking.  Don't be suprised if your still falling behind DPS classes with your DPS post-fix.Much in the same way you wouldn't expect a Paladin to outheal the templar.  Get realisitic.  Also, your fix is already in the works.  Isn't it time to tone down the SK whinefest just a bit?

[RanmaBoyType]

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gnevil wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Same old arguement same old responses.And it applies only to raid scenerio.  Which is how much of a percentage of the actual game population at large?Sorry but only 2 spots in a raid get filled by a plate tank.  2 of 24 spots.  There are 4 plate tanks that means 50% of them are left out in the cold no matter what.Sorry that you feel you are not good enough to be a raid maintank, or conversely that most guilds use X class as their main tank.  But thats raiding and that's the way it is.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Few other things that used to be "the way it is"</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">- Buildings were constructed with asbestos.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">-Smoking was not thought to be harmful</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">- Doctors thought leeches & bleeding  were good for you.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Just because something is tradition or past practice does not mean it was a good idea or even desirable.</span></p><p>Now drop down the majority of the population which isn't in a raid guild raiding...   Group content and solo content and I don't see very much to complain about, any of the tanks can and do tank any of the group/solo content in the game.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><b><span style="font-size: small;">Well I am not so sure about RE 2, I think all the  fighter classes could do the final mob with fabled out gear, but I really doubt either of the brawlers or a SK could in legendary gear.</span></b></span>You say you can't get a group, that's you personal issue then as these days its guild groups first pickup groups rarely.But when I do group out of guild I will pretty much join any tank in any instance.  Some are good some are ok some are really really bad.  But that's the risk you take in pickup groups.As far as Guards being overpowered.  Nope all they do is tank gang that's it they bring absolutely nothing else to a group or a raid.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">What exactly do any of the other fighter classes bring to the group, besides tanking.  The only agument I can see is brawlers can do some decent dps when speced right.  Your right guards are not overpowered, the other classes are just underpowered, imo. Some more then others.</span> </p><p>  And in a group situation outside of RE2 where I prefer a pally... they really aren't spectacular unless we have an ideal group makeup.  Most of the time a swash or brig does it faster and better.But then it's all opinions and you all know what they say about them...</p></blockquote></blockquote><p>My sk has sucessfully cleared RE2 as tank in legendary gear.  You can see her gear here -> <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=532951205" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Subetachan</a></p><p>She has 3 peices of fabled - Tramplers boots, iztapa's devotion and ring of the bastion.  none of which are a make or break for a tank in RE2.  I know this really does not help much.  As i still feel and agree SK's need some love, -Aggro, Mit, Lifetaps, but just wanted to point out that the player behind the class has alot to do with what can get done.</p>

[LygerT]

bring a brigand, dirge and swashy and just about anyone can tank the zone.

[Seolta]

<p>SK are /hardbutton in all aspects compared to all other Plate tanks in raid AND in group. Period.</p><p>Paly Amends is the ultimate easy button for aggro control. </p><p>Warriors have the defensive edge on us in every way...all the lifetaps and self wards in the world don't change that.</p><p> </p><p>Sure, you can solo an SK to 80 easier than any other tank....then put it on mothballs while you go level a new toon to actually raid with.</p><p> </p><p>Back on topic: i'm sure it's been established by now that the changes affect all classes who use those items, in fact, mostly crusaders. (irony?)</p>

[Rahatmattata]

There's this thing called solo group raid and pvp.There's this other thing called tanking and not tanking.Guardians are good at tanking group & raid. If the guard isn't tanking, he's a wasted slot... berserker is pretty much the same scenario but they do get berserk for whatever that's worth. If a crusador or brawler isn't tanking, he can still contribute in other ways.

[evilgamer]

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote> If a crusador or brawler isn't tanking, he can still contribute in other ways.</blockquote><p>Brawler, I would say yes due their to dps and monk have their uber raidwide and the avoidence buff.</p><p>But crusaders, no, besides tanking neither of them really bring anything to either a group or a raid</p><p>Both classes do less dps then either warrior class.</p><p>I would not want a plate tank in a raid for anything but tanking, and neither would anyone else with a clue.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

wts evil gamer a clue.

[Rainmare]

No, evil gamer is right, at least in group content.Paladins don't do the DPS of a warrior. not even close in some cases. my ward and my heal don't come within a mile of any of the healer classes. Dirge/priest/necro all have a better rez then I do.Now, then, why would you bring a paladin for any other reason then tanking, EXCEPT to raid content, where I can play a way backup healer/OT. that's really all a paladin brings to a raid. I can buff wisdom and healing by a tiny bit, and non-fighter mitigation, not that it matters since even with the extra mit any raid mob and 1 shot a non-tank pretty much.and none, not one, of the plate tanks comes close to the Guardian defensive ability.

[Rahatmattata]

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, evil gamer is right, at least in group content.Paladins don't do the DPS of a warrior. not even close in some cases. my ward and my heal don't come within a mile of any of the healer classes. Dirge/priest/necro all have a better rez then I do.<i><b>Paladins do a little of everything, aren't the best at anything.</b></i>Now, then, why would you bring a paladin for any other reason then tanking, EXCEPT to raid content, where I can play a way backup healer/OT. that's really all a paladin brings to a raid. I can buff wisdom and healing by a tiny bit, and non-fighter mitigation, not that it matters since even with the extra mit any raid mob and 1 shot a non-tank pretty much.<i><b>I wouldn't actively try and get a crusader, but if that's all I could get and I end up tanking, at least they can provide some usefulness. Unless lay on hands, heals & wards, rez, feign death, mit buff, heal buff, evac is what you call useless. I don't even know all the crusader abilities, those are just some that stand out in my mind, and except for the mit and heal buff, can save the group a total wipe or at least some deaths.  If it's the other way around and crusader tanking and me (guardian) not tanking, well that is useless. At best what I could bring is to pick up the mob when the tank dies, and hold it until it's dead or the tank is rez'd and buffed... but any tank worth a **** can do the same. Deny it all you want, but crusaders have utility that is useful when not tanking.</b></i>and none, not one, of the plate tanks comes close to the Guardian defensive ability.<i><b>Yea that's kind of the point of picking a guardian to play in the first place. If you want to be the most defensive tank you don't pick a bruiser or shadowknight unless you are seriously misinformed.</b></i></blockquote>

[Rainmare]

Um, except if your not tanking, and you go offensive with a buckler, nowadays you do Scout level DPS.and yes, I do a little of a few things, but none of them even half as good as an EQ1 paladin. that was the point of being called a 'hybrid'. in EQ1 a paladin could heal on par with a druid. I coudl do the same damage a warrior did, if not MORE. and I paid for that by being less defensive then a warrior.that's why people get tired of the 'paladins/Sks bring other things to the table' crap. there's no reason, at all, to want a paladin or sk in groups. none.you want dps? you get a scout or a mage. you need heals or want utility? you get a bard/chanter/priest.A necro and a conjy provide better utility then I do.my mitigation buff is useless. utterly useless. it doesn't prevent a wipe. all it really does is means that mob that hits you for 1500 hits you for 1495. adding 130 to heals, and like 86 wisdom isn't wipe preventing. not with how hard RE2 mobs hit, and not even in group content in RoK.People right now would literally rather wait for that 6th slot, or go with 5, then have a crusader in a slot other than a tank slot. we just don't bring anything that there ain't 5 classes that do it better. you even said yourself, you won't go looking for a crusader. they way you describe it, would be you'd have to be invited to a group with a crusader already in it to think about grouping with one.what the plate tanks other than a guard want is very simple. we want to be maybe have 3/4 the defense of a Guard. rather then 1/6th the defense. and if they don't want to up our defense, then we want your offense torn down, since you shouldn't be the best defensively and the best offesenively of the plate tanks.that's the trade off. your were supposed to have the best defense, and probably the worst offense, holding aggro through taunts/abilities like reinforcement. that's the description they gave for the guard.So choose one. do you want to have the super offense and not be lightyears ahead of the other plate tanks, or do you want to stay the top defensive tank by a mile and a half but have your damage output crippled.and the way it sounds, is what they are going to do, according to the excerpt from Aerlik, is probably either seriously jump up our defense(which I'd prefer), or nerf yours(more likely) so the plate tanks are much closer together defensively.

[evilgamer]

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>wts evil gamer a clue.</blockquote>rofl, cant argue the point so go straight to insults

[Rahatmattata]

I argued the point, but not with you.

[Rahatmattata]

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Um, except if your not tanking, and you go offensive with a buckler, nowadays you do Scout level DPS.<i><b>Maybe bard dps.</b></i>and yes, I do a little of a few things, but none of them even half as good as an EQ1 paladin. that was the point of being called a 'hybrid'. in EQ1 a paladin could heal on par with a druid. I coudl do the same damage a warrior did, if not MORE. and I paid for that by being less defensive then a warrior.that's why people get tired of the 'paladins/Sks bring other things to the table' crap. there's no reason, at all, to want a paladin or sk in groups. none.you want dps? you get a scout or a mage. you need heals or want utility? you get a bard/chanter/priest.A necro and a conjy provide better utility then I do.my mitigation buff is useless. utterly useless. it doesn't prevent a wipe. all it really does is means that mob that hits you for 1500 hits you for 1495. adding 130 to heals, and like 86 wisdom isn't wipe preventing. not with how hard RE2 mobs hit, and not even in group content in RoK.<i><b>Yea, although those buffs do help, I specifically said "except the mit and heal buffs" when I was talking about preventing a total wipe, so not sure if you misread or if you are just bringing up a point out of nowhere on your own.</b></i>People right now would literally rather wait for that 6th slot, or go with 5, then have a crusader in a slot other than a tank slot. we just don't bring anything that there ain't 5 classes that do it better. you even said yourself, you won't go looking for a crusader. they way you describe it, would be you'd have to be invited to a group with a crusader already in it to think about grouping with one.<i><b>Of course not. I'm a plate tank why would I invite another? But if I do happen to be in a group with a crusader, at least they can still do stuff besides bard level dps.</b></i>what the plate tanks other than a guard want is very simple. we want to be maybe have 3/4 the defense of a Guard. rather then 1/6th the defense. and if they don't want to up our defense, then we want your offense torn down, since you shouldn't be the best defensively and the best offesenively of the plate tanks.that's the trade off. your were supposed to have the best defense, and probably the worst offense, holding aggro through taunts/abilities like reinforcement. that's the description they gave for the guard.So choose one. do you want to have the super offense and not be lightyears ahead of the other plate tanks, or do you want to stay the top defensive tank by a mile and a half but have your damage output crippled.<i><b>I think guardians are on-par and couldn't really care less about the other fighters as long as it doesn't make guardians obsolete.</b></i>and the way it sounds, is what they are going to do, according to the excerpt from Aerlik, is probably either seriously jump up our defense(which I'd prefer), or nerf yours(more likely) so the plate tanks are much closer together defensively.<i><b>You guys are really stretching that sentence from aerilik. I don't honestly see how you can infer anything from that except someday maybe some sort of changes will be happening to some fighters</b></i><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite> <p>"...and the way it sounds, is what they are going to do, according to the excerpt from Aerlik, is probably either seriously jump up our defense(which I'd prefer), or <span style="color: #ffff99;">nerf yours(more likely)</span> so the plate tanks are much closer together defensively."</p></blockquote><blockquote><cite><span style="color: #ff0000;">Aeralik wrote:</span></cite> <p>"...I have said a few times recently though that we will not be making any changes in the short term.  In the longer term <span style="color: #ffff99;">there are some changes to enhance survivability of the non guardian fighters</span> but nothing concrete that I can commit to or comment on...."</p></blockquote><p>Let's please not turn every developer statement into a 3-ring circus.  I know it would delight some of the posters in this forum, for whatever immature reason, to wake up one day and find the Guardian subclass marginalized in favor of their class choice.  But how you can extract anything remotely resembling a "likely nerf" from the recent quote is beyond me.</p>

[LygerT]

i hate nerfs, i don't want our guard nerfed, but i can't say i'm not jealous of how powerful they've become. back 3 years ago, when zerkers had their time to shine i was just starting this game, i never had the chance to truly enjoy it while it lasted.

[Tiberuis]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>i hate nerfs, i don't want our guard nerfed, but i can't say i'm not jealous of how powerful they've become. back 3 years ago, when zerkers had their time to shine i was just starting this game, i never had the chance to truly enjoy it while it lasted. </blockquote><p>I don't mind that Guardians have the highest hit points amoungst the plate tanks.  </p><p>Or the highest mitigation.  </p><p>Or the highest avoidance.  </p><p>Or the best aggro management.  </p><p>Or the most survivability.</p><p>But when they <b>DPS</b> the pants off the SK class, <i>on top</i> of all those uber tanking advantages, that's when  I wonder how a company like Sony can get something so completely wrong.  And yes, after so many years invested in my toon, I'm a little miffed about that.  It's so completey imbalanced, it's a fiasco.</p>

[LygerT]

i;m right there with you but there is other ways of fixing it with the coming expansion by bumping up the other classes in the areas they lack or placing content in areas that those tanks shine in.

[Tiberuis]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>i;m right there with you but there is other ways of fixing it with the coming expansion by bumping up the other classes in the areas they lack or placing content in areas that those tanks shine in. </blockquote><p>/agree </p><p>No need to nerf the Guardian class.  It is much more appropriate to bring the other 3 plate tank classes into balance, in terms of survivability and DPS, with the Guardian class.</p><p>Perhaps the new AA lines in TSO will bring the other 3 plate tank classes into balance with our Guardian friends.  I am hopeful SOE will get it right for a change.</p>

[flowercivicsi]

<p>Good SK's that know their class can DPS and can tank mobs... end of story. </p><p>We group with a SK all the time for instance runs, and we will have him offtank in a pinch to replace the zerker in raids (even in VP), and honestly I notice no difference when the SK is offtanking.  Perhaps some of you have bad buffs in your groups, or your gear is not all that great... (But with bad buffs any group no matter what class is tanking it can turn ugly) However: SK's are capable tanks.  The funny part is that 10 times out of 10 the SK's I group with stay in offensive stance to maintain aggro, and some how they live... SK survivial in offensive, and they hit 2-3k in group instances??? </p><p>Same goes with brawlers - I have healed RE2 with a monk and a bruiser and yes we killed the epic X2 in there any tank classes available.  Really it's up to the healer(s) to keep the tank up.  If you die... blame them as they were trying to dps too... /guilty (Note: I can solo heal our SK in RE2 as well as our warden and templar as thry too have solo healed his butt) </p><p>Oh wait? I thought SK's could not dps and dropped like a fly at the sight of a mob because you are sooo bad off? I just think the people here that are complaining about their DPS and their defense are the ones that don't strive to do as much DPS as possible.  (FYI: Guards can't DPS unless they really work on it... same with every class really)  Open up your preferred parsing program, and look for those areas where you as a player can improve.  Check your weapon delays for CA's/Spells to correlate with your melee damage.</p><p>I don't agree with doing any nerfage to any of the classes.  SK's require a buff(s) that can be either group or raid wide that would allow for them to have a little more offering to a raid setting.  (adds 3000hp to all of the defilers wards... hehe j/k)  I would also provide them with a slight boost to their DPS, and when I say slight I mean slight. SK's can put out some numbers "if" you know what you're doing.  It could be as simple as increasing resistability to their spells making them land more efficently, providing them with better reuse times on their spells, better cast times, or allowing them to cast thru on stun/stifle/mez/fear.  </p><p>So puts the nerf bat away plz! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  kkthx</p>

[Norrsken]

<cite>Alaocia@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Good SK's that know their class can DPS and can tank mobs... end of story. </p><p>We group with a SK all the time for instance runs, and we will have him offtank in a pinch to replace the zerker in raids (even in VP), and honestly I notice no difference when the SK is offtanking.  Perhaps some of you have bad buffs in your groups, or your gear is not all that great... (But with bad buffs any group no matter what class is tanking it can turn ugly) However: SK's are capable tanks.  The funny part is that 10 times out of 10 the SK's I group with stay in offensive stance to maintain aggro, and some how they live... SK survivial in offensive, and they hit 2-3k in group instances??? </p><p>Same goes with brawlers - I have healed RE2 with a monk and a bruiser and yes we killed the epic X2 in there any tank classes available.  Really it's up to the healer(s) to keep the tank up.  If you die... blame them as they were trying to dps too... /guilty (Note: I can solo heal our SK in RE2 as well as our warden and templar as thry too have solo healed his butt) </p><p>Oh wait? I thought SK's could not dps and dropped like a fly at the sight of a mob because you are sooo bad off? I just think the people here that are complaining about their DPS and their defense are the ones that don't strive to do as much DPS as possible.  (FYI: Guards can't DPS unless they really work on it... same with every class really)  Open up your preferred parsing program, and look for those areas where you as a player can improve.  Check your weapon delays for CA's/Spells to correlate with your melee damage.</p><p>I don't agree with doing any nerfage to any of the classes.  SK's require a buff(s) that can be either group or raid wide that would allow for them to have a little more offering to a raid setting.  (adds 3000hp to all of the defilers wards... hehe j/k)  I would also provide them with a slight boost to their DPS, and when I say slight I mean slight. SK's can put out some numbers "if" you know what you're doing.  It could be as simple as increasing resistability to their spells making them land more efficently, providing them with better reuse times on their spells, better cast times, or allowing them to cast thru on stun/stifle/mez/fear.  </p><p>So puts the nerf bat away plz! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  kkthx</p></blockquote>there is also an issue with sk as for gear. there is really no good gear for sks out there, or its really scarce. that is why you se emost sks falter. Sks that actually get to go on raids are leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the sks. Then we have the issue with the stigma that sks have had to endure since launch, something that makes it tricky to get on raids.And noone really said sks cant do group stuff. Its the raids that show the guardians forte. And as far as survivability, the zerk and sk are about the same. Its not about the warriors being better than the others, its the guardians being far better at taking damage than the others.But I agree, bring the tanks up to par with eachother.No need to nerf people.

[RanmaBoyType]

<cite>Alaocia@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Good SK's that know their class can DPS and can tank mobs... end of story. </p><p>We group with a SK all the time for instance runs, and we will have him offtank in a pinch to replace the zerker in raids (even in VP), and honestly I notice no difference when the SK is offtanking.  Perhaps some of you have bad buffs in your groups, or your gear is not all that great... (But with bad buffs any group no matter what class is tanking it can turn ugly) However: SK's are capable tanks.  The funny part is that 10 times out of 10 the SK's I group with stay in offensive stance to maintain aggro, and some how they live... SK survivial in offensive, and they hit 2-3k in group instances??? </p><p>Same goes with brawlers - I have healed RE2 with a monk and a bruiser and yes we killed the epic X2 in there any tank classes available.  Really it's up to the healer(s) to keep the tank up.  If you die... blame them as they were trying to dps too... /guilty (Note: I can solo heal our SK in RE2 as well as our warden and templar as thry too have solo healed his butt) </p><p>Oh wait? I thought SK's could not dps and dropped like a fly at the sight of a mob because you are sooo bad off? I just think the people here that are complaining about their DPS and their defense are the ones that don't strive to do as much DPS as possible.  (FYI: Guards can't DPS unless they really work on it... same with every class really)  Open up your preferred parsing program, and look for those areas where you as a player can improve.  Check your weapon delays for CA's/Spells to correlate with your melee damage.</p><p>I don't agree with doing any nerfage to any of the classes.  SK's require a buff(s) that can be either group or raid wide that would allow for them to have a little more offering to a raid setting.  (adds 3000hp to all of the defilers wards... hehe j/k)  I would also provide them with a slight boost to their DPS, and when I say slight I mean slight. SK's can put out some numbers "if" you know what you're doing.  It could be as simple as increasing resistability to their spells making them land more efficently, providing them with better reuse times on their spells, better cast times, or allowing them to cast thru on stun/stifle/mez/fear.  </p><p>So puts the nerf bat away plz! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  kkthx</p></blockquote><p>Ill agree with this.  My sk has tanked all instances, including re2.  ive offtanked in raids, and am pulled in almost every SoH raid for sister fight.  I think however the overlooked issue is that any other figher can do what we do easier, more effecient, and with less of a requirement on gear/masters/group set up.  yeah Crusaders can DPS in a raid, but its almost a given fact that warriors and brawlers can do more dps than crusaders given their available aa choices and plain old abilities.  Sure crusaders can tank and pull aggro, but the temp buffs and abilities warriors and bralwers get for snap aggro or mit/avoidance are far greater than crusaders. (i can DM on raids and the mobs never budge from our guardians, so much for relying on that if we need it ^_^ )</p><p>yeah we can do it.  ive done it.  its just not everyone is the best of the best (nor am i)  when other classes can do it easier, more efficient and with less of a gear/spell/group requirement, then really why bring us?  </p><p>I dont think anyone needs a nerf, i stand by crusaders need a fix. (or at least a helping hand)</p>

[Kordran]

The more things change, the more they remain the same. Go back to virtually any point in the history of EQ2 and you'll see one group of folks howling about how Guardians are overpowered and deserve a good beating with the nerfbat, and the Guardians defensively enumerating their weaknesses and warning others that if they do get nerfed, it's the end of the known (raiding) multiverse. 2005 has called, and it would like it's class envy flame threads returned, please.

[Gungo]

<p>It shouldnt be to hard to fix the overpowered guard issues.</p><p>Step 1 remove the majority of uncontested avodiance from game, including AA's, Adornments, block, and shield avodiance as uncontested. Turn them into normal checks</p><p>Step 2 place warriors, (possibly crusaders) on healer auto atk table</p><p>Step 3 buff defensive stances for all fighters to include a base at most 20% uncontested avodiance to block/deflection. Add 50% to taunts in defensive stance. </p><p>Step 4 raise hate gain cap to 100%</p><p> Guards need to suck at aoe agro and multimob survivability and dps, in order to give roles to other fighters. </p>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>The more things change, the more they remain the same. Go back to virtually any point in the history of EQ2 and you'll see one group of folks howling about how Guardians are overpowered and deserve a good beating with the nerfbat, and the Guardians defensively enumerating their weaknesses and warning others that if they do get nerfed, it's the end of the known (raiding) multiverse. 2005 has called, and it would like it's class envy flame threads returned, please.</blockquote><p>And according to one poster here, it only takes 3-4 weeks to level up a toon to 80, yet three years later all these SK's etc. still come out of the woodwork for page after page, thread after thread, crying and moaning instead of investing one month and becoming the apparent Superman of EQII.  /boggle</p>

[Kordran]

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It shouldnt be to hard to fix the overpowered guard issues.</p><p>Step 1 remove the majority of uncontested avodiance from game, including AA's, Adornments, block, and shield avodiance as uncontested. Turn them into normal checks</p><p>Step 2 place warriors, (possibly crusaders) on healer auto atk table</p><p>Step 3 buff defensive stances for all fighters to include a base at most 20% uncontested avodiance to block/deflection. Add 50% to taunts in defensive stance. </p><p>Step 4 raise hate gain cap to 100%</p><p> Guards need to suck at aoe agro and multimob survivability and dps, in order to give roles to other fighters. </p></blockquote>First of all, arguing that Guardians should "suck" in any context is going to pretty much be a non-starter. If they did what you suggest, they would have to rebalance every single raid encounter because no warrior would be able to control aggro; a 50% increase in taunts and inceasing the hate cap simply wouldn't swing it.Moreover, you say that they need to give roles to other fighters. Why, exactly? What is wrong with having Guardians be the premier raid main tank, and other fighters playing a supportive role as off-tanks? I agree with the idea that fighters should be generally equivalent in the ability to tank heroic content, and they are; differences there are usually a matter of preference, not ability. But when it comes to raiding, particularly more committed raiding, I see nothing wrong with the idea that the Guardian is the "go to" class as the main tank for raids, and leaving it at that. In the broader context, we're talking about what... less than 5% of the game population here?Not all fighters have to be created equal here and be perfectly balanced against one another. And as another poster just pointed out, if being a main tank is really your heart's desire, then create a Guardian and form up a raiding guild. For me, a hybrid like a Shadowknight demanding parity as a raid tank with a "pure" class like the Guardian makes no sense. If that were the case, why in the world would anyone even play a Guardian to begin with?

[evilgamer]

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It shouldnt be to hard to fix the overpowered guard issues.</p><p>Step 1 remove the majority of uncontested avodiance from game, including AA's, Adornments, block, and shield avodiance as uncontested. Turn them into normal checks</p><p>Step 3 buff defensive stances for all fighters to include a base at most 20% uncontested avodiance to block/deflection. Add 50% to taunts in defensive stance. </p></blockquote><p>You are correct, uncontested avoidence is possiblly causing the single greatest imbalances to gameplay.</p><p>Think about it, just take a average legendary equiped warrior with a buckler spec.</p><p>14% uncontested from their buckler and the AA's of that line.</p><p>6% uncontested from wrist adornments.</p><p>3% uncontested from weapon adornment</p><p>2% uncontested from MC neck</p><p>5% uncontested from food</p><p>That is 30% uncontested avoidence with zero raid gear.  And in raid gear and I am sure the number is 40% plus.</p><p>So even the averaged legendary geared warrior can outright avoid roughly 1 out 3 of a mobs attacks even if the mob was level 200.</p><p>Because of this the developers have constantly ramped up mobs levels to deal with this vast increase in tanking power.</p><p>This in turn has caused  problems for nuking classes because their ability to land spells is contested and really drops off against high con yellow and orange mobs.</p><p>It has also caused guardian dps to get out of wack, because all of their "real" avoidence comes from gear, allowing them to tank in their offense stance against high con yellow and orange mobs and barely take a hit to their defensive abilities.  Almost all warriors tank in their offensive stance except for the very hardest raid mobs.</p><p>Uncontested Avoidence is the only skill in this game that I am aware of that completely ignores the rest of the rules in the game follows checking your level against the mobs.</p><p>Brawler tanking is also negatively affected by this because their uncontested comes from their defensive stance.  Roughly 15% at the M1 level.  It bascially forces the non raid geared brawler to use his defensive stance when tanking high con yellow mobs and orange mobs in places like chelsith.  Its a myth that brawlers are the "dps tanks", non raid geared brawlers that try to tank in their offensive stance like warrior do against high con yellow mobs, go splat very fast.  When tanking almost all non raid geared brawlers must use their defensive stance and their dps drops off signifcantly when doing so.</p><p>I would like someone to explain to me what the logic of introducing uncontested skills into the game were.</p><p>Why does level checks mean everything for most of the games content then all of sudden the devs suddenly start introducing skills and gear that ignore level checks.</p><p>It it were up to me they would get rid of all uncontested skills, including avoidence, and just balance mobs appropriatly.</p><p>This would solve a few imbalances like guard dps, spell resist, and tank balance.</p><p>It would force all tanks to use their defensive stances when tanking, effectively hampering their dps and  spells would be resisted much less against scaled back lower con mobs.</p><p>If any of you doubt how overpowered uncontested avoidence is.  Create a level 1 guardian in neriak and go attack the  level 85 x 2 guards with your noob tower shield equipped.  If you do this say 5 times, you will see, you will actually block a good number of your blows before they splat you.  Now unequip the tower sheild and attack them, you will go splat every single time, no dodge, no parry.</p><p>The reason for this is sheild block is uncontested, straight parry and defense are not.  That is how overpowered uncontested avoidence is, a level 1 can outright block a blow from a 85x2 but will never parry, dodge, hit, land a spell or anything else against a mob of that level.</p>

[Margen]

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>The more things change, the more they remain the same. Go back to virtually any point in the history of EQ2 and you'll see one group of folks howling about how Guardians are overpowered and deserve a good beating with the nerfbat, and the Guardians defensively enumerating their weaknesses and warning others that if they do get nerfed, it's the end of the known (raiding) multiverse. 2005 has called, and it would like it's class envy flame threads returned, please.</blockquote><p>And according to one poster here, it only takes 3-4 weeks to level up a toon to 80, yet three years later all these SK's etc. still come out of the woodwork for page after page, thread after thread, crying and moaning instead of investing one month and becoming the apparent Superman of EQII.  /boggle</p></blockquote><p>I found that statment so insulting and stupid it boggles my mind.</p><p>I've been playing my SK since the beginning of this game bud, when they lied and said fighters would tank equally but diffrent and yes that what they said they didn't say Guardians would be the best tanks hands down.  I've gone through all the expansions and battled for getting our class for where it should be and we still get comments like this garbage.</p><p>To say you have some god given right to be the best in every thing is so bogus it boggles the mind.  Guardians should of never had their dps increased.  They should have a horrible time with agro and should dps like a freaking templer!</p><p>You don't like that ... oh well reroll another character and don't complain.  People wonder why they other fighters are screaming nerf, well your attitude adds to those screams for nerfs.  You know your class is overpowered and you love it, but don't expect us non-guardians to sit quietly by and say nothing.  </p><p>If you want to make actual reasonable arguments about tank balance I am willing to listen but when you make statments like that your comments show no integrety or honesty ... Get a clue</p>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<p>I rarely intersperse colored lines of text into other people's posts as a way of replying, because it's an eyesore and it smacks of bickering.  But in this case it was the only way.  Skittles INC!</p><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite>Blackoath@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>The more things change, the more they remain the same. Go back to virtually any point in the history of EQ2 and you'll see one group of folks howling about how Guardians are overpowered and deserve a good beating with the nerfbat, and the Guardians defensively enumerating their weaknesses and warning others that if they do get nerfed, it's the end of the known (raiding) multiverse. 2005 has called, and it would like it's class envy flame threads returned, please.</blockquote><p>And according to one poster here, it only takes 3-4 weeks to level up a toon to 80, yet three years later all these SK's etc. still come out of the woodwork for page after page, thread after thread, crying and moaning instead of investing one month and becoming the apparent Superman of EQII.  /boggle</p></blockquote><p>I found that statment so insulting and stupid it boggles my mind.</p><p><span style="color: #33cccc;">Look at any of 400 or so posts in my history on these boards, many of which involve fighter balance, and tell me again how I'm an insulting member of this community.  Look at any of those same posts and find some stupidity.  I scratch my chin and ponder which of the two of us is actually being insulting and stupid here.</span></p><p>I've been playing my SK since the beginning of this game bud, when they lied and said fighters would tank equally but diffrent and yes that what they said they didn't say Guardians would be the best tanks hands down.  I've gone through all the expansions and battled for getting our class for where it should be and we still get comments like this garbage.</p><p><span style="color: #33cccc;">You are not a shadowknight, you are person sitting behind a keyboard paying about 50 cents a day to dress up in any of a hundred different combinations of race and class polygons.  To imply that you were somehow "born" into this world a shadowknight or monk or whatever without any recourse to choose again is ridiculous.  Nobody lied to anybody.  The developers said "all fighters are tanks" and they gave all fighters tanking tools.  They did not say "all fighters are main raid boss tanks" and that's the one and ONLY thing guardians have over the other fighter classes.  And I can guarantee you guardians will still be able to take a big hit the best, next year and the year after that.</span></p><p>To say you have some god given right to be the best in every thing is so bogus it boggles the mind.  Guardians should of never had their dps increased.  They should have a horrible time with agro and should dps like a freaking templer!</p><p><span style="color: #33cccc;">I see you're drinking (and regurgitating) the Gungo kool-ade, very dangerous.  I advise against it.  Same inflammatory anti-guardian stuff he's been posting for years on these very boards.  You see how effective his campaigns have been at getting the guardian class nerfed thus far.  I'd wager they will continue to be equally effective.</span></p><p>You don't like that ... oh well reroll another character and don't complain.  People wonder why they other fighters are screaming nerf, well your attitude adds to those screams for nerfs.  You know your class is overpowered and you love it, but don't expect us non-guardians to sit quietly by and say nothing.</p><p><span style="color: #33cccc;">The guardian class is the most capable at standing in one place and taking the biggest, baddest hits from extra-large polygons and living to tell about it.  You bet I love it.  That's an exact match with what I expected when I invested in my guardian back in November of 2004.  On the other hand, I've sorted my spellbook every which way and I still haven't found my heals, cures, taps, wards, evac, feign death, resurrect and a couple dozen other abilities that would have been mighty cool to own these past 4 years.</span></p><p>If you want to make actual reasonable arguments about tank balance I am willing to listen but when you make statments like that your comments show no integrety or honesty ... Get a clue</p><p><span style="color: #33cccc;">Again, do your homework.  Search these boards for my tank balance posts.  There are dozens.  I and many others have been coming here making actual reasonable arguments for years now. Weren't you listening?</span></p></blockquote>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<p>The double post gremlin needs a nerf!  >.<</p>

[Tiberuis]

<cite>Alaocia@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Good SK's that know their class can DPS and can tank mobs... end of story. </p><p>We group with a SK all the time for instance runs, and we will have him offtank in a pinch to replace the zerker in raids (even in VP), and honestly I notice no difference when the SK is offtanking.  Perhaps some of you have bad buffs in your groups, or your gear is not all that great... (But with bad buffs any group no matter what class is tanking it can turn ugly) However: SK's are capable tanks.  The funny part is that 10 times out of 10 the SK's I group with stay in offensive stance to maintain aggro, and some how they live... SK survivial in offensive, and they hit 2-3k in group instances??? </p><p>Same goes with brawlers - I have healed RE2 with a monk and a bruiser and yes we killed the epic X2 in there any tank classes available.  Really it's up to the healer(s) to keep the tank up.  If you die... blame them as they were trying to dps too... /guilty (Note: I can solo heal our SK in RE2 as well as our warden and templar as thry too have solo healed his butt) </p><p>Oh wait? I thought SK's could not dps and dropped like a fly at the sight of a mob because you are sooo bad off? I just think the people here that are complaining about their DPS and their defense are the ones that don't strive to do as much DPS as possible.  (FYI: Guards can't DPS unless they really work on it... same with every class really)  Open up your preferred parsing program, and look for those areas where you as a player can improve.  Check your weapon delays for CA's/Spells to correlate with your melee damage.</p><p>I don't agree with doing any nerfage to any of the classes.  SK's require a buff(s) that can be either group or raid wide that would allow for them to have a little more offering to a raid setting.  (adds 3000hp to all of the defilers wards... hehe j/k)  I would also provide them with a slight boost to their DPS, and when I say slight I mean slight. SK's can put out some numbers "if" you know what you're doing.  It could be as simple as increasing resistability to their spells making them land more efficently, providing them with better reuse times on their spells, better cast times, or allowing them to cast thru on stun/stifle/mez/fear.  </p><p>So puts the nerf bat away plz! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  kkthx</p></blockquote><p>Like my previous post clearly states, <b>no need to nerf the Guardian class</b>.</p><p>Your assessment of the Shadowknight class' ability to out DPS a Guardian is not accurate.  Most talented Guardians far exceed an SK's DPS in a raid zone.  Not even close.  It's a joke.  Check out any of the many ACT parse posts on EQ2 Flames class forums - you will see the evidence clearly.</p><p>The problem with the plate tank class imbalance issues right now is that is is so blatant.  </p><p>Perhaps if the SK's DPS were superior to a Guardian's, and the SK had some <i>useful </i>utility that a raid would actually desire, there would be some interesting debate for class desireability - as opposed to class imbalance.</p><p>Aeralik said it best.  SOE defines the role of an SK as a plate tank.  That's it.  The SK's role is to <i>Tank</i>.</p><p>The problem is that the Guardian class has superior tanking, hit points, survivability, avoidance, mitigation, aggro generation, <i>AND</i> DPS to a Shadowknight.  No offense intended, but anyone can clearly see that it is not even close here.  Plate tank balance is a fiasco in it's current state.   SOE just plain got it wrong.</p>

[evilgamer]

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>  Plate tank balance is a fiasco in it's current state.   SOE just plain got it wrong.</blockquote><p>Um fighter balance altogether.  Its not like guild are tripping over themselves to recruit a bruiser either.  Go check the game wide recruitment thread on flames.</p><p>Aeralik said zerker and Sk role was tanking, I am very curious what he thinks the brawler  definded role is.</p>

[LygerT]

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>  Plate tank balance is a fiasco in it's current state.   SOE just plain got it wrong.</blockquote><p>Um fighter balance altogether.  Its not like guild are tripping over themselves to recruit a bruiser either.  Go check the game wide recruitment thread on flames.</p><p>Aeralik said zerker and Sk role was tanking, I am very curious what he thinks the brawler  definded role is.</p></blockquote>tripping over shinies

[Levatino]

like evilgamer said"If any of you doubt how overpowered uncontested avoidence is. Create a level 1 guardian in neriak and go attack the level 85 x 2 guards with your noob tower shield equipped. If you do this say 5 times, you will see, you will actually block a good number of your blows before they splat you. Now unequip the tower sheild and attack them, you will go splat every single time, no dodge, no parry.<p>The reason for this is sheild block is uncontested, straight parry and defense are not. That is how overpowered uncontested avoidence is, a level 1 can outright block a blow from a 85x2 but will never parry, dodge, hit, land a spell or anything else against a mob of that level."</p>a lot of problems would go away if this was fixed or to say it better also is determined according to level.

[Faelgalad]

<p>@Evilgamer</p><p>You are clueless! All you labeled uncontested stuff is contested Riposte/Parry stuff. Only Block is uncontested and even block is not as uncontested, as it sounds. Block increase equipment is less effective against higher level opponents. Soulfire Gladius gives rather 4% then 5% against level 80+ opponents. </p><p>A lot here are clueless. Sorry! You can discuss you top ideas that require endless programming and coding. White elephants!</p><p>Endless remodeling the game costs money, so we will not see this. </p><p>So we need simple solutions. Not remodeling the world, remodel the Classes to match the world. </p><p>Upgrading basic abilities (spells/combat arts) is needed for scaling. like in the case of Troubadour Damage scaling. </p><p>Redesigning abilties is the next. Guards dominance belong to a big part on their good abilities or less percentage of crap skills in comparision. </p><p>But Tanks need a AA revamp. Guard DPS is not big by design, it's big by buckler-double attack achivement. </p><p>There are only two ways. </p><p>Nerf Guards, as they imbalance 5 other classes. Fix 5 classes. </p><p>I would applaud if...</p><p>Brawler:  </p><p>Deflection into uncontested avoidance, Str-Line useable armed with weaker effect, more equipment in T1-T3 Raidzones. </p><p>Crusader:  </p><p>Damage Ratio of 1,5 to 2,0 changing wis-line, divine aura improvement, improvement of Death March (in T8 it's rather lame), Two-Handed Weapon Stance, double attack close to warrior, defense improvement and Aggro managment (snap aggro) of SK. </p><p>Zerkers: I'am Clueless, more damage would change them into plate scouts ^^ fixing their Level 80 special definitely. </p>

[Windowlicker]

Guardian here:Guards need a big whack with the nerf bat.  We're doing way too much DPS.  Don't bother nerfing us unless your going to adjust our other abilities to compensate.Our taunts and mob control abilities need to be tweaked, or we won't be able to tank.  But as it stands, we are doing FAR too much damage.Tanks in general should not be coming anywhere near T1 DPS numbers.  And that goes for all tanks.Brawlers should have more damage, as they aren't as good at tanking.

[evilgamer]

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>@Evilgamer</p><p>You are clueless! All you labeled uncontested stuff is contested Riposte/Parry stuff. Only Block is uncontested and even block is not as uncontested, as it sounds.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You are wrong, adornments, gear, food, AA's, stances, etc can all give uncontested avoidence.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Anything that says "caster/wearer/etc will block/parry/deflect/dodge x%" is uncontested avoidence.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The brawler uncontested comes from their stance, since we can not wear sheilds. For example:</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><b><i><u><span style="font-size: large;">Caster will deflect 9.5% of incoming attacks</span></u></i></b> </span></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Stance:_Bodyguard" target="_blank"><span style="color: #ff0000;">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Stance:_Bodyguard</span></a></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">That means the bruiser gets a 9.5% roll to deflect any incoming attack NO MATTER WHAT.</span></p><p> Block increase equipment is less effective against higher level opponents. Soulfire Gladius gives rather 4% then 5% against level 80+ opponents. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Where are you getting this data that sheild block is less effective against higher cons?  Because I have not seen any that indicates this.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">LIKE I SAID GO CREATE A LEVEL 1 GUARDIAN, RUN HIM TO NERIAK, ATTACK THE 85 X2 GUARDS WITH YOUR NOOB TOWER SHEILD EQUIPPED. DO THIS 10 TIMES, YOU WILL BLOCK A GOOD NUMBER OF THEIR MELEE ATTACKS.  NOW DELETE THE TOON (CAUSE THE GEAR IS BROKEN) CREATED ANOTHER NOOB GUARD LEVEL 1.  RUN HIM TO NERIAK PUT THE TOWER SHEILD IN THE BAG AND ATTACK THE 85 X 2 GUARDS, YOU WILL GO SPLAT EVERY SINGLE TIME.  Be sure to wait for rez effects to wear off,</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">In the little expierment I did, I attacked the same 85 x2 guard 5 times and I got 8 sheild blocks off before going splat.  WIthout the shield I just went splat everytime.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Uncontested means exactly that, you get a roll to do whatever it is irreguardless of the mobs level.  How much greater of a  level difference can you get, a level 1 vs a 85 x 2 and the level 1 still sheild blocked at least 1 of the 85 x 2 blows everytime I attacked.  He dodge/parry exactly zero with the tower sheild off, as those skill are contested except with gear/food/etc.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Why do you think 3% parry uncontested adorns sell for 40pp on the broker lol, because they are uncontested and because they are that good lol. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Like I said is not hard for a non raid gear warrior to hit at least 30% uncontested.  Raid geared warriors are hitting 40% plus.  Its grossly overpowering  What if 40% of an assassins melee landed no matter what? Even against a level 200 mob. It seem to me that would be a bit overpowering.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Yet this is exactly how uncontested avoidence currently works and because of it devs have seriously ramped up mobs levels to make content more challenging, which has affected things like tank balance and spell resist rate dramatically for the reasons I listed previously.</span></p></blockquote>

[tikasa]

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It shouldnt be to hard to fix the overpowered guard issues.</p><p>Step 1 remove the majority of uncontested avodiance from game, including AA's, Adornments, block, and shield avodiance as uncontested. Turn them into normal checks</p><p>Step 2 place warriors, (possibly crusaders) on healer auto atk table</p><p>Step 3 buff defensive stances for all fighters to include a base at most 20% uncontested avodiance to block/deflection. Add 50% to taunts in defensive stance. </p><p>Step 4 raise hate gain cap to 100%</p><p>Guards need to suck at aoe agro and multimob survivability and dps, in order to give roles to other fighters. </p></blockquote>First of all, arguing that Guardians should "suck" in any context is going to pretty much be a non-starter. If they did what you suggest, they would have to rebalance every single raid encounter because no warrior would be able to control aggro; a 50% increase in taunts and inceasing the hate cap simply wouldn't swing it.Moreover, you say that they need to give roles to other fighters. Why, exactly? What is wrong with having Guardians be the premier raid main tank, and other fighters playing a supportive role as off-tanks? I agree with the idea that fighters should be generally equivalent in the ability to tank heroic content, and they are; differences there are usually a matter of preference, not ability. But when it comes to raiding, particularly more committed raiding, I see nothing wrong with the idea that the Guardian is the "go to" class as the main tank for raids, and leaving it at that. In the broader context, we're talking about what... less than 5% of the game population here?Not all fighters have to be created equal here and be perfectly balanced against one another. And as another poster just pointed out, if being a main tank is really your heart's desire, then create a Guardian and form up a raiding guild. For me, a hybrid like a Shadowknight demanding parity as a raid tank with a "pure" class like the Guardian makes no sense. If that were the case, why in the world would anyone even play a Guardian to begin with?</blockquote><p>Gaurds should not be able to hold aggro on multi encounters ... PERIOD.   That is why there is an OT to grab the rest.     Sorry but no class should be able to go all out DPS and never worry about getting aggro.    Gaurds should SUCK at group encounters.. Switch to Zerk or SK.. Gaurds should SUCK against Caster mobs..  Swithch to Pally or SK...   Gaurds should Suck against Ultera high agility mobs..  Switch to brawlers...   If you tank an enemy that is not your prototype ( fighter for Warriors )  you should have to work your but off to do damage and hold aggro.    The rest of the group should know they need to tone it back or they will be tanking.    Yes Gaurds SHOULD still be able to tank every mob... but it would be a challange to do... and other <u><b>TANK </b></u>classes would be able to do the job better/ faster</p><p>Bring back thinking and group setup to the game and all of the classes would be needed...</p>

[Noaani]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanks in general should not be coming anywhere near T1 DPS numbers.  And that goes for all tanks.</blockquote><p>This is very true.</p><p>Alhough both players and developers like to point out that it is no longer realivent, the old DPS tier chart is still as close to how things should be as anything, almost...</p><p>If you ignore minor DPS differances (~1k on raids), this is how the current DPS chart 'should' look...</p><p>T1</p><p>PreditorsSorcerersRougesSummoners</p><p>T2</p><p>EnchantersBardsFurysInquisitorsMysticsBrawlersSKsB ezerkersMT (only here due to buffs)</p><p>T3</p><p>Non tanking guardianNon tanking paladinTemplarDefilerWarden</p><p>It is currently a mile off that.</p>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<cite>tikasa wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Gaurds should not be able to hold aggro on multi encounters ... PERIOD.   That is why there is an OT to grab the rest.     Sorry but no class should be able to go all out DPS and never worry about getting aggro.    Gaurds should SUCK at group encounters.. Switch to Zerk or SK.. Gaurds should SUCK against Caster mobs..  Swithch to Pally or SK...   Gaurds should Suck against Ultera high agility mobs..  Switch to brawlers...   If you tank an enemy that is not your prototype ( fighter for Warriors )  you should have to work your but off to do damage and hold aggro.    The rest of the group should know they need to tone it back or they will be tanking.    Yes Gaurds SHOULD still be able to tank every mob... but it would be a challange to do... and other <u><b>TANK </b></u>classes would be able to do the job better/ faster</p></blockquote><p>Okay, just for the record tikasa, the above is your formula for "tank balance," correct?</p>

[Windowlicker]

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanks in general should not be coming anywhere near T1 DPS numbers.  And that goes for all tanks.</blockquote><p>This is very true.</p><p>Alhough both players and developers like to point out that it is no longer realivent, the old DPS tier chart is still as close to how things should be as anything, almost...</p><p>If you ignore minor DPS differances (~1k on raids), this is how the current DPS chart 'should' look...</p><p>T1</p><p>PreditorsSorcerersRougesSummoners</p><p>T2</p><p>EnchantersBardsFurysInquisitorsMysticsBrawlersSKsB ezerkersMT (only here due to buffs)</p><p>T3</p><p>Non tanking guardianNon tanking paladinTemplarDefilerWarden</p><p>It is currently a mile off that.</p></blockquote><p>Close, but you should remove most of those people from T2.</p><p>Enchanters and Bards are support classes, and don't have a main function of doing damage.  The fact they can right now, is more due to horrible balance in the game then anything else.</p><p>Fury's, Mystics, and Inquisitors should be seated more in the T3 range as well.  </p><p>Also, there should be a T4 classification where most of your healers and Tanks should be seated.  You need that catagory for the bottom of the barrel classes who's focus is on anything *but* doing damage.</p>

[flowercivicsi]

<p>Drats I started thinking again... </p><p>Okie dokey so SK's have spells... how often are you resisted when raiding?  I know I get resisted a ton until we have the right amount of debuffs into the mob since they changed the spell resists rates in LU43.  Were you doing better DPS on raids prior to the LU?</p><p>Would an aggro ability like the Paladins Holy Ground be something that you would like to see in the future?  Increases threat priority by 24 positions?</p><p>BTW No class should suck, and the people who are in here demanding the nerfs to other classes to the point of sucking; may you get an itchy rash in a very special place!  We all pay to play this game and we <b>all</b> want to be useful in this game.  The good thing is that 85% of the people in here are thinking postive about what could be done. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>/hugs for tanks all around!!!</p>

[evilgamer]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanks in general should not be coming anywhere near T1 DPS numbers.  And that goes for all tanks.</blockquote><p>This is very true.</p><p>Alhough both players and developers like to point out that it is no longer realivent, the old DPS tier chart is still as close to how things should be as anything, almost...</p><p>If you ignore minor DPS differances (~1k on raids), this is how the current DPS chart 'should' look...</p><p>T1</p><p>PreditorsSorcerersRougesSummoners</p><p>T2</p><p>EnchantersBardsFurysInquisitorsMysticsBrawlersSKsB ezerkersMT (only here due to buffs)</p><p>T3</p><p>Non tanking guardianNon tanking paladinTemplarDefilerWarden</p><p>It is currently a mile off that.</p></blockquote><p>Close, but you should remove most of those people from T2.</p><p>Enchanters and Bards are support classes, and don't have a main function of doing damage.  The fact they can right now, is more due to horrible balance in the game then anything else.</p><p>Fury's, Mystics, and Inquisitors should be seated more in the T3 range as well.  </p><p>Also, there should be a T4 classification where most of your healers and Tanks should be seated.  You need that catagory for the bottom of the barrel classes who's focus is on anything *but* doing damage.</p></blockquote><p>Summoners are really hurting, all the +crit and spell damage in Rok does mush less for them as it does not affect their pets.</p><p>Dumbfires also die so easily in AOE. </p>

[Khurghan]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanks in general should not be coming anywhere near T1 DPS numbers. And that goes for all tanks.</blockquote>They aren't (jim jam tanks might be but guards sure as hell aren't), seriously if your guard is getting close to you T1 dps in numbers I suggest you fire your dps.

[Windowlicker]

<cite>Khurghan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanks in general should not be coming anywhere near T1 DPS numbers. And that goes for all tanks.</blockquote>They aren't (jim jam tanks might be but guards sure as hell aren't), seriously if your guard is getting close to you T1 dps in numbers I suggest you fire your dps.</blockquote><p>Actually it's quite easy on some pulls and in some situations.</p><p>If your Guard isn't cranking out decent damage, maybe you should fire your Guard.</p>

[flowercivicsi]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Khurghan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanks in general should not be coming anywhere near T1 DPS numbers. And that goes for all tanks.</blockquote>They aren't (jim jam tanks might be but guards sure as hell aren't), seriously if your guard is getting close to you T1 dps in numbers I suggest you fire your dps.</blockquote><p>Actually it's quite easy on some pulls and in some situations.</p><p>If your Guard isn't cranking out decent damage, maybe you should fire your Guard.</p></blockquote><p>I agree with Zahne on this one... if your guard is in the top 5... fire some DPS and replace them as they are not doing their job.  Our top parsers are Assassins, Swashbuckers, Coercers, Wizard, and Zerkers when the stars align... Mystics can match Guard DPS if they are in their butt stomping gear.  I have even seen furys pop 3.5k on mobs... Everyones DPS went up... not just Guardians.  </p>

[Khurghan]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Khurghan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanks in general should not be coming anywhere near T1 DPS numbers. And that goes for all tanks.</blockquote>They aren't (jim jam tanks might be but guards sure as hell aren't), seriously if your guard is getting close to you T1 dps in numbers I suggest you fire your dps.</blockquote><p>Actually it's quite easy on some pulls and in some situations.</p><p>If your Guard isn't cranking out decent damage, maybe you should fire your Guard.</p></blockquote>If you can get close to my guilds T1 dpser's you are more than welcome to my MT spot.

[Gungo]

<cite>Khurghan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Khurghan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanks in general should not be coming anywhere near T1 DPS numbers. And that goes for all tanks.</blockquote>They aren't (jim jam tanks might be but guards sure as hell aren't), seriously if your guard is getting close to you T1 dps in numbers I suggest you fire your dps.</blockquote><p>Actually it's quite easy on some pulls and in some situations.</p><p>If your Guard isn't cranking out decent damage, maybe you should fire your Guard.</p></blockquote>If you can get close to my guilds T1 dpser's you are more than welcome to my MT spot.</blockquote><p>Do you consider summoners T1 dps because i might just take up your offer =P. </p><p>A better indicator is you have 24 people on a raid parse, where should the guard be on that list. </p><p>1 assassin......24 templar</p><p>Imho a guard should be around the 21st spot on dps just beating the templar, defiler, warden. and don't give me that MT buffed B.S. in a good raid guild everyone is buffed. Most buffed better for dps then the MT. </p><p>Agro should be a hate and taunt feature for fighters not a primarily dps feature.</p><p>nerf guard dps, make hate gain and hate transfer caps 100%. Double taunt values. and add an additional 50% taunt  increaser to defensive stance.</p>

[rabid.pooh]

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It shouldnt be to hard to fix the overpowered guard issues.</p><p>Step 1 remove the majority of uncontested avodiance from game, including AA's, Adornments, block, and shield avodiance as uncontested. Turn them into normal checks</p><p>Step 2 place warriors, (possibly crusaders) on healer auto atk table</p><p>Step 3 buff defensive stances for all fighters to include a base at most 20% uncontested avodiance to block/deflection. Add 50% to taunts in defensive stance. </p><p>Step 4 raise hate gain cap to 100%</p><p>Guards need to suck at aoe agro and multimob survivability and dps, in order to give roles to other fighters. </p></blockquote>First of all, arguing that Guardians should "suck" in any context is going to pretty much be a non-starter. If they did what you suggest, they would have to rebalance every single raid encounter because no warrior would be able to control aggro; a 50% increase in taunts and inceasing the hate cap simply wouldn't swing it.Moreover, you say that they need to give roles to other fighters. Why, exactly? What is wrong with having Guardians be the premier raid main tank, and other fighters playing a supportive role as off-tanks? I agree with the idea that fighters should be generally equivalent in the ability to tank heroic content, and they are; differences there are usually a matter of preference, not ability. But when it comes to raiding, particularly more committed raiding, I see nothing wrong with the idea that the Guardian is the "go to" class as the main tank for raids, and leaving it at that. In the broader context, we're talking about what... less than 5% of the game population here?Not all fighters have to be created equal here and be perfectly balanced against one another. And as another poster just pointed out, if being a main tank is really your heart's desire, then create a Guardian and form up a raiding guild. For me, a hybrid like a Shadowknight demanding parity as a raid tank with a "pure" class like the Guardian makes no sense. If that were the case, why in the world would anyone even play a Guardian to begin with?</blockquote><p>I think what you should be asking is not whats wrong with letting other tanks bite at the bit.  Why can't SOE design content that a raid actually has to strategize on what tank is going to be used?  Why should one tank rule all the content?  Fighters don't have to be perfectly balanced against each other, the raid content should be driving the need for classes based on their class design.  Personally I think this is why (minus all the trash) that I like SoH, you need more than two warriors on the raid, and the content calls for other classes.  The designers had said they didn't want you to have to have a specific class in order to raid, but in doing that they made it so only one class is used as a no brainer.  Bring it back to the archtypes, where you should have a warrior, crusader, brawler on your raids.</p><p>Guards are totally OP right now, we rely far to heavily on DPS, and not what we should be relying on which are good agro tools, and if we don't have the right agro tools to do the job done the DEVs should get off their buts and give us the right tools.  The tank by design shouldn't be top 5 DPS in raid, we should be near the bottom but have the tools we need to maintain agro and survivablity accross the board.</p><p>To the OP, man quit your crying, Guards by far have the best mythical of all the tanks if not the game, and the 5% damage buff loss was nothing.</p><p>Crusaders/brawlers need some major love from the devs and IMHO should be the #1 priority for the devs.  Gameplay should over rule fluff stuff like guild halls.  Nothing more frustrating to a player who finally gets to the end game to find out that he's not wanted or needed.</p>

[Khurghan]

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Do you consider summoners T1 dps because i might just take up your offer =P. <p>A better indicator is you have 24 people on a raid parse, where should the guard be on that list. </p><p>1 assassin......24 templar</p><p>Imho a guard should be around the 21st spot on dps just beating the templar, defiler, warden. and don't give me that MT buffed B.S. in a good raid guild everyone is buffed. Most buffed better for dps then the MT. </p><p>Agro should be a hate and taunt feature for fighters not a primarily dps feature.</p><p>nerf guard dps, make hate gain and hate transfer caps 100%. Double taunt values. and add an additional 50% taunt increaser to defensive stance.</p></blockquote>hehe no summoners aren't T1 dps <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> , but I agree that the tanking model is borked in that tank need dps as their main source of hate (unless you are a pally)

[Barakuz]

<p>Seems like Nerf the Guardian is the flavour of the month...but is it :</p><p>1. Make other tanks more usefull in raids (no disagreements from me on this, although it would mean kicking some of you dps classes off the raid to make room)</p><p>2. Provide some improvements to Crusaders (needed for Sk's)</p><p>3. Provide some improvements to Brawlers</p><p>4. Nerf all tanks dps and increase taunt based hate gain (gonna suck levelling or soloing a tank, but hey what do you dps classes care)</p><p>5. Nerf Guardian dps (cos we sure don't want Guardians for the first time in EQ2 history actually have some fun doing actual dps)</p><p>What people can't seem to understand is that - there are really only 2 spots for tanks on a raid force, and everyone is suggesting that the 1 spot available for a Guardian - should now be populated by "Insert any tank classs here"</p><p>So the one tank class that has a tough time of grinding level's or solo play, should now give up the one advantage they have once they start end-game raiding. BTW lets face it we are talking about end-game raiding right...cos you all know any of the tank classes can easily tank instances, plate tanks are fine on T1-T3 and likely tank VP (although I agree that Guardians have the defensive edge on mobs such as Druushk).</p><p>I expect that we will get shafted again as we did in LU13...but for a few months here, it sure was nice to actually hit some decent dps numbers and not feel [Removed for Content] compared to everyone else. The sad thing is, half the tanks complaining about Guardians - just plain suck and wouldn't cut it as a raid MT anyway.</p><p>Bara</p>

[Ep]

I think it's funny when the only classes that call for guardian nerf are... other fighters, who of course want the mt spot. You can bet, that no one else would want to see a more viable crusader tank or even brawler mt's dear god. You know why? how are we going to gear these classes for a mt spot? well thinking almost logically, mt tank gets gear first and most, you can have an arguement against this but no one can deny the mechanics of the raiding game, "hi big mob, meet mt tank go chat to each other for 5min, why everyone else kicks your @$$" So logic would say gear our your mt first, which is almost always going to be a guard, well just because honestly a guard mt's better than any other class.(baring old grandfather'd other tanks, or no guards at all and all that junk, generally speaking)Do you think it's viable to nerf the guard to almost mt'in most of the time, that there is now no set mt? you actually have to equally gear 2 or even maybe 3 tanks, if not just that, different types of tanks even? Imagine if every fight was like a soh, sisters fight, most ppl have a monk in raid, if not that have an alt camped at zone or an alt crusader camped at zone, heck some guilds even go in w/ just 2 of the 3 required and beat those 2 sisters to death. But still imagine "needed" real players to play those characters full time and have them geared as well? what a raiding nightmare.in terms of dps, my personal dps is idk, well it changes depending on the zone of course, my mt group is nearly always the same, anyway , the important thing, rather than amount of dps is dps position, which is relative to the raid. I'm usually between 4-7 in terms of dps spots. i find a drake that stuns me forever i'm 7th on dps, i'm able to find a raptor i can do 7k and i'm number 4. does my class do too much dps? well i'm in dps gear, so yea i assume i should be doing dps, why do i do dps? cuz i can. The more dps i do the more my raid can do, if they can implement where the more aggro i do the more dps my raid can do thats fine too, but what are they going to do?i know they'll add +aggresionv2i'm sure we all look for that +5 aggression when avatar loot drops, oh i NEED that!!!or maybe that'll be +aggression crit, who knows then when that fails +aggression modby the time we're all fiendishly hunting down for all these new +aggression v2, v3 we have no more tanking gear and just die, somehow(well thats not true, not like i'll give up avatar boots for no matter what, any time soon, unless they're mythical boots of +aggression v<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[victer]

<cite>Auron@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it's funny when the only classes that call for guardian nerf are... other fighters, who of course want the mt spot. </blockquote><p>Whats even more funny is gaurds trying to debate the fact that they shouldnt be touched. Gaurdians are overpowered this expantions and ONLY when they get thier mythical. Admit it and help everyone come up with a fair solution.</p><p>Dont try and give me the "your mt has to get first gear so haveing more tanks is bad" stuff.</p><p>The problem right now is the majority of agro in the game is generated with DPS so that means you guys feel like its your right to DPS high so that you can hold agro. Which for the current mechanics of the game works, but that doesnt mean its fair to pure dps classes that you outparse or other tanks that "should" be doing more dps then you right now since they dont have to worry about mitigating/avoidind dammage. </p>

[Giral]

<cite>Auron@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it's funny when the only classes that call for guardian nerf are... other fighters, who of course want the mt spot. </blockquote><p>No what's realy funny is some of us can Fill the MT spot already. its a bit harder, takes more work, but it can ,is and always has been done in eq2 using other Mt's besides guardians</p><p>and whats even funnier is that you want to continue doing it Much easier then other tanks And continue to outparse them wyle doing so. </p><p>and lastly why would you call for a nerf to your own class ? last i checked nobody does that /ponder ...but the differance is when another class Knows its overpowered they try to stay under the radar and aviod the nerf as long as possible , where as SOME guardians are standing from the roof toops yelling " we are suppose to be Godmode tank, and ROk reflects that  "  </p><p>DPS tiers should be : </p><p>Tier 1 = Pure Dps classes ONLY , this is there function . Period . </p><p>no tier 2 classes </p><p>high end Tier 3 in decending order those with the least utility having the higher DPS , and those with more utility at the lower end, offensive tanks in the same decending order and the offensive healers ,,, some of the Higher tier 3 classes would be able to do occasional middle tier 2 dps and very very rarely hit a low T-1 , </p><p>Low end tier 3 Def tanks, Def healers , occasioanly do High tier 3 dps and very rarely hit tier 2 lower dps #'s</p><p>then remove Stances from the game <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<p>Where is all this insane guardian DPS happening, because I'm looking through three weeks' worth of group and raid parses on ACT and I'm just not seeing it.  I see scouts always in the top range by a good margin, mages mixed in but doing somewhat less damage, fighters mixed in but generally below the mages, and healers last.  Is this not how it should be?  Looking at fighters, I see a berserker and a monk doing a bit more damage than me, the OT guardian is close but doing just a bit less than me overall due mainly to buffs.</p><p>If you are claiming that fighter DPS is an issue, what exactly is your raid DPS and what is the DPS of this guardian that is humbling you?</p>

[victer]

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Where is all this insane guardian DPS happening, because I'm looking through three weeks' worth of group and raid parses on ACT and I'm just not seeing it. I see scouts always in the top range by a good margin, mages mixed in but doing somewhat less damage, fighters mixed in but generally below the mages, and healers last. Is this not how it should be? Looking at fighters, I see a berserker and a monk doing a bit more damage than me, the OT guardian is close but doing just a bit less than me overall due mainly to buffs.</p><p>If you are claiming that fighter DPS is an issue, what exactly is your raid DPS and what is the DPS of this guardian that is humbling you?</p></blockquote>like i said you only really see gaurds start to shine when they get thier mythical. Do you have it yet? Once you start parseing the same or higher then alot of people includeing scouts/mages/other tanks while still being able to tank like a beast with at least 15% more uncontested avoid then i could ever wish for then maybe you can see our complaints.

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Where is all this insane guardian DPS happening, because I'm looking through three weeks' worth of group and raid parses on ACT and I'm just not seeing it. I see scouts always in the top range by a good margin, mages mixed in but doing somewhat less damage, fighters mixed in but generally below the mages, and healers last. Is this not how it should be? Looking at fighters, I see a berserker and a monk doing a bit more damage than me, the OT guardian is close but doing just a bit less than me overall due mainly to buffs.</p><p>If you are claiming that fighter DPS is an issue, what exactly is your raid DPS and what is the DPS of this guardian that is humbling you?</p></blockquote>like i said you only really see gaurds start to shine when they get thier mythical. Do you have it yet? Once you start parseing the same or higher then alot of people includeing scouts/mages/other tanks while still being able to tank like a beast with at least 15% more uncontested avoid then i could ever wish for then maybe you can see our complaints.</blockquote><p>No mythical yet, but from the sound of it any imbalances in fighter DPS are apparently confined to this item, so I would agree maybe it should get looked at from that aspect.  A single item that causes any fighter using it to do more damage than scouts and mages should indeed be called epic, if not overpowered.  I'm ready to get my hands on that sword before it gets nerfed a second time.</p>

[Wilin]

I'd love to parse 6-8K ZW or 11K on single fights like my T1 DPS do, but it's just not in the dice.

[Rahatmattata]

<cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>ike i said you only really see gaurds start to shine when they get thier mythical. Do you have it yet? Once you start parseing the same or higher then alot of people includeing scouts/mages/other tanks while still being able to tank like a beast with at least 15% more uncontested avoid then i could ever wish for then maybe you can see our complaints.</blockquote>So this tank balance thing is because of the guardian mythical? A class shouldn't be balanced around 1 single item that takes up 1 equipment slot. Especially when most guardians won't be getting it. Also, you must know some truly amazing guardians or crappy dps classes, cuz the only time I out parse a decent scout or mage is when Im pulling heroic stuffs and the other classes have nothing big up. Our CAs reset relatively fast and we have a lot of double attack and self haste. I almost always get out parsed by brawlers. Maybe I just suck, but noone has ever said I suck to my face, and I feel I'm decent.If you're a brawler and can't out-parse a guardian, you do lousy dps (of course similar quality gear, AAs, knowledge, buffs, blah blah blah). I've always thought shadowknights suck even before I made my guardian, so yea... they do need something IMO. But to nerf guardians so shadowknights can feel like they don't suck so bad is a little lame.

[Elanjar]

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>ike i said you only really see gaurds start to shine when they get thier mythical. Do you have it yet? Once you start parseing the same or higher then alot of people includeing scouts/mages/other tanks while still being able to tank like a beast with at least 15% more uncontested avoid then i could ever wish for then maybe you can see our complaints.</blockquote>So this tank balance thing is because of the guardian mythical? A class shouldn't be balanced around 1 single item that takes up 1 equipment slot. Especially when most guardians won't be getting it. Also, you must know some truly amazing guardians or crappy dps classes, cuz the only time I out parse a decent scout or mage is when Im pulling heroic stuffs and the other classes have nothing big up. Our CAs reset relatively fast and we have a lot of double attack and self haste. I almost always get out parsed by brawlers. Maybe I just suck, but noone has ever said I suck to my face, and I feel I'm decent.If you're a brawler and can't out-parse a guardian, you do lousy dps (of course similar quality gear, AAs, knowledge, buffs, blah blah blah). I've always thought shadowknights suck even before I made my guardian, so yea... they do need something IMO. But to nerf guardians so shadowknights can feel like they don't suck so bad is a little lame.</blockquote>I think the reason many of the other tank classes call nerf guards is because making the other classes more powerful to even tank balance out would imbalance other things. I'll take the zerker as an example as its my class. An end game zerk can put out some mad parses, *can* tank all end game content, but admittedly cannot do it quite as smoothly as a guard, while guards can still almost match our parses. So since zerks are supposed to have significantly less defense (currently true) but also have significantly more offense (currently not true, only minorly more), if guards arent nerfed you would have to raise our dps. But if you raise the zerk dps anymore we will definitely be encroaching on scout dps territory which would be unfair to them. I'm happy the guards got buffed, however there needs to be better tank balance. Hopefully they can come up with a good solution that doesnt involve nerfing guards but who knows, who knows...PS. SK's really do need some love. Fingers crossed for them. Brawlers stop whining, you should easily be able to outparse a plate tank.

[Rahatmattata]

Or they could put multi-target encounters in T8.

[Todra_B]

<p>After playing a healer to 80 I wanted to try the game from the other end and rolled a Sarnak Guardian.</p><p>Of course you have to discount that I provide enough resourses to twink him pretty well. He is lvl 45 now with a full set of ebon vanguard and an impressive kite shield that dropped for me in Cazic Thule. I'm having fun soloing this toon now in sinking sands. As long as I avoid the heroic mobs I've had few problems taking normal con mobs up to lvl 51. Some fights I'm still green. He feels like a brick wall next to my Fury main. </p><p>My 41 aa's gave me the Executioner title and 4 pts on the buckler plus 25% DA. He seems to be pretty B.A. with over 5000 health that takes forever to burn down. My fastest death was in rivervale when I went for the nightblood L&L. Two lvl 42^^^ jumped me. </p><p>Overpowered, no, just solid. When I get to 80 I'll see about overpowered if they haven't nerfed the class by then.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<cite>Todra_B wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Overpowered, no, just solid. When I get to 80 I'll see about overpowered if they haven't nerfed the class by then.</p></blockquote>Well, we are getting <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/30757-incoming-nerf-fanfaire.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nerfed</a>. Or rebalanced, or revamped, or fixed or whatever term floats your boat.

[LygerT]

<p>you guys are messed in the head...</p><p>you know that guards are almost side by side with zerks DPS wise yet you adamately continue to say "there's no problem here, move along", then point to a thread saying zerks are crying and SoE is letting us have our way. well the real news is, you knew it was coming but just were lying to yourselves. put the shoe on the other foot, see how it fits. </p>

[Rahatmattata]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>you know that guards are almost side by side with zerks DPS wise</blockquote>On single target stuff maybe. But not our fault soe didn't put many multi-mob encounters in T8. Anyway, we are getting nerfed, so gratz... now move along.

[salle]

<p>I like that everyone just went on and thought this was a guardian specific nerf though. and cheering on. It was mostly a crusader nerf seeing as they get their bulk of uncontested avoidance from the shield and upping the effectiveness of it by 25% from AAs. Guardians get 8% uncontested from 2 pieces of our ragebringer set (same for zerks) and 8% from our mythical when specced stamina (only us though, zerks have to use a buckler still). and that's how we keep ahead. (all other things can all plate tanks get)</p><p>Oh well ignorance is bliss or what ever it is they say. </p>

[tikasa]

<cite>salle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I like that everyone just went on and thought this was a guardian specific nerf though. and cheering on. It was mostly a crusader nerf seeing as they get their bulk of uncontested avoidance from the shield and upping the effectiveness of it by 25% from AAs. Guardians get 8% uncontested from 2 pieces of our ragebringer set (same for zerks) and 8% from our mythical when specced stamina (only us though, zerks have to use a buckler still). and that's how we keep ahead. (all other things can all plate tanks get)</p><p>Oh well ignorance is bliss or what ever it is they say. </p></blockquote>In no way will they touch a Crusaders shield effectivness.   The only thing I see them doing is as one poster stated hearing they will change it so no tank can TANK in offensive.    I do not see this alone moving Gaurds out of the MT spot in any raids, but might make them ALOT closer to the other <b><span style="font-size: medium;">5</span></b> tanks on heroic content.   I hope the put tanks on a Mages auto attack table when they are in defensive stance.   When <b>Tanks</b> are in offensive stance they should be unchanged in DPS, but get 1 shoted if the mob turns and hits them... even in Avatar gear.

[Rahatmattata]

<cite>tikasa wrote:</cite><cite></cite><blockquote>In no way will they touch a Crusaders shield effectivness. The only thing I see them doing is as one poster stated hearing they will change it so no tank can TANK in offensive. I do not see this alone moving Gaurds out of the MT spot in any raids, but might make them ALOT closer to the other <b><span style="font-size: medium;">5</span></b> tanks on heroic content. I hope the put tanks on a Mages auto attack table when they are in defensive stance. When <b>Tanks</b> are in offensive stance they should be unchanged in DPS, but get 1 shoted if the mob turns and hits them... even in Avatar gear.</blockquote>I think he was talking about the sheild of the green dragon nerf and other shield changes. But... 1 shot in o-stance even with avatar gear? ouch... Even a brigand can survive a melee swat or two. I think when all nerfing/rebalancing is said and done, we should at least be able to hold a mob in an emergancy for a brief time in o-stance... with defensive abilities and temp buffs. Of couse switching to d-stance is just a matter of 2 clicks... probably 1 if you make a macro.

[Wilin]

<p>Going back to my comment above that no one responded to:</p><p>I haven't read all of this but I can tell you that when I go full burn with dirge/coercer buffs and I'm parsing 4K and my taunts are even proccing 2 mental DDs each, I still lose aggro sometimes because the T1 DPS are parsing 8-11K. Quite simply, (as Aerilik stated) tanks need DPS to keep aggro. If they nerf our hate generation in any way, they nerf the entire raid's DPS potential.</p><p>In other words, they nerf everyone.</p><p>The probable thing to do in all of this is to use the new AAs to line the tanks up better. Warriors should probably get abilities that improve their taunts. Everyone else should get abilities that improve their dps significantly.</p><p>But, if your tank is parsing anywhere near your T1 DPS, then your DPS classes need some work. I parse usually around 3500 and I end up somewhere around 7-10 on the parse.</p>

[LygerT]

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tikasa wrote:</cite><cite></cite> <blockquote>In no way will they touch a Crusaders shield effectivness. The only thing I see them doing is as one poster stated hearing they will change it so no tank can TANK in offensive. I do not see this alone moving Gaurds out of the MT spot in any raids, but might make them ALOT closer to the other <b><span style="font-size: medium;">5</span></b> tanks on heroic content. I hope the put tanks on a Mages auto attack table when they are in defensive stance. When <b>Tanks</b> are in offensive stance they should be unchanged in DPS, but get 1 shoted if the mob turns and hits them... even in Avatar gear.</blockquote>I think he was talking about the sheild of the green dragon nerf and other shield changes. But... 1 shot in o-stance even with avatar gear? ouch... Even a brigand can survive a melee swat or two. I think when all nerfing/rebalancing is said and done, we should at least be able to hold a mob in an emergancy for a brief time in o-stance... with defensive abilities and temp buffs. Of couse switching to d-stance is just a matter of 2 clicks... probably 1 if you make a macro.</blockquote>that's part of the problem, a stance should be chosen before engaging a mob and not something that can be swapped mid fight if they do something like this change.

[YummiOger]

<p>hmm .. Guard DPS is Overpowered? </p><p>Well looking at our parses from the last month or 2, i can parse up to 3000+ given a good group... </p><p>BUT my Scout DPS and Wizards are 4K-6K .. Whats the Problem?? seems in order to me.</p>

[Terron]

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Few other things that used to be "the way it is"</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">- Buildings were constructed with asbestos.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">-Smoking was not thought to be harmful</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">- Doctors thought leeches & bleeding  were good for you.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Just because something is tradition or past practice does not mean it was a good idea or even desirable.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote>Actually bleeding could be good for you - and it is still used for some rare cases as are leeches.The placebo effect can make almost any treatment work, but the first experiment ever done with a thermometer proved that bleeding lowers body temperature, i.e. it is effective against the symprom of fever.However asprin is better - it was only when asprin became available that bleeding stopped being commonly used.

[Terron]

<cite>Todra_B wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Of course you have to discount that I provide enough resourses to twink him pretty well. He is lvl 45 now with a full set of ebon vanguard and an impressive kite shield that dropped for me in Cazic Thule. I'm having fun soloing this toon now in sinking sands. As long as I avoid the heroic mobs I've had few problems taking normal con mobs up to lvl 51. Some fights I'm still green. He feels like a brick wall next to my Fury main. </p></blockquote>Odd, I have the opposite impression.My fury seems to be able to solo heroic mobs almost as well as my guard could handle solo ones at her level (66).Of course she takes more damage, but heals are better than mit.

[Drakks]

<p>The problem I have with guards, as a zerker, is that there is no disadvantage to being one -- yet every guardian will tell the other tank classes that their "complaints" are just a part of being that class.</p><p>The problem, in my opinion, is two-fold:</p><p>1. Tank classes can be labeled "situationally strong", if you like. But in the situations that play into a tanks strength, there should be zero question by anyone watching that you have the right tank for the job. If you have anything other than that tank, it should be noticeable. Currently this situation doesn't exist for guardians to the same extreme it does other classes.</p><p> 2. When you have several potential tanking classes one situation where a class shines brighter than the others cannot be "tanking". That is the genre of class we all play, and is our collective role in group play. As such, there should not be a global "better" tank -- and in this case guardians are that because the two important aspects of tanking: damage mitigation and threat control are their "strengths". This isn't even mentioning the damage they put out, a "strength" of other tanking classes, is currently very similar to other classes who supposedly payed for their ability to do that damage by diminished damage mitigation ability.</p><p> in the end it all of course comes down to balance, and the silly notion of SOE to use 5 seperate "tank" classes. It was ambitious close to the point of impossible to implement in any sort of meaningful way, but hey.. it looks good for the marketing of your game.</p>

[code]

<p>Before you all jump on the worried Guardians complaining about the nerfs, keep in mind that the end-game content was engineered with a Guardian tanking. That means if Guardians are nerfed, the whole raid is nerfed.</p><p>If you are an upset zerker sk or pally, instead of crying for Guardians to be nerfed, you should be advocating upgrades for your individual classes. That way, the whole game population doesn't suffer and everyone is happy.</p><p>Right now, we're about to go live with a Warrior and incidentally, a Guardian nerf that will definitely impede Raid progress. The same VP mobs will be more difficult now, overnight. Druushk beating your azz? Wait until after the nerf when he crits. And the logic of "Oh just go get critical mitigation gear" is flawed as hell, because right now all Guardians are wearing +Parry and +Defense gear to get their avoidance as high as possible. Replacing that avoidance gear with Critical Mitgation gear is only going to make them get hit even more.</p><p>That just does not seem fair to me, no matter what class any of you plays.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>RoK mobs won't crit, only TSO mobs (and future expansion mobs) will.</p><p>And as far as the "If you nerf guardians you nerf the raid" argument goes, with all the AAs and gear that we're getting with TSO, RoK content is going to be a joke even for non-mythical'd out guilds.</p>

[Moralpanic]

<p>I remember back in the original beta and saying how hard it would be to balance 6 [Removed for Content]' tank classes. After 4 years, and we still have the same problems.</p><p>In DoF beta, i was again vocal about how unfair of a nerf we were getting, and that there was no way we were ready to go live in that state. No one heard or listened to me (i wasn't max lvl at the time, so i was betaing in the lvl 30s or so, and i saw how bad we were), so i quit the game when DoF came out.</p><p>2 years later i came back. Now i've been enjoying the game for the past year or so... i do not have my mythical, although we're hoping to beat Leviathon tonight and get into VP, so i should be getting it soon enough. But it looks like i'll be leaving the game again.</p><p>SOE doesn't care about the players. They have these strict ideas about what we should and shouldn't be able to do, and if we use our ingenuity to come up with something better, their first response is 'hey! you're not supposed to do that!' and take out the nerf stick and nerf us. Instead, they should be saying 'wow, that's amazing. If you can do that, try this on for size'.</p><p>I understand when it comes to exploits and such that that needs to be stamped out. But when players use their ingenuity to defeat the game, that shouldn't be punished.</p><p>It's like pen and paper RPG, you can tell who are the good DMs and who are the bad ones. The bad ones have you following a track that the DM specifically laid out, and they don't like cleverness or ingenuity in their game. They just want the players to play out the story they've planned out. Unlike the good DMs, who encourage players to explore the game and world, and the unexpected is as much fun for the DM as it is for the players.</p><p>SOE has lost it's way.</p>

[rabid.pooh]

<p>/Applaud "And the most useless drama post goes to...  'Moralpanic'"  Lets get it to him quick before he /wrists. </p><p>MoralPanic your so couragous you had the strength to complain and quit pre DoF, and now you have the fortatude to do the same again.  I'm sorry, I'm tearing up thinking of this heartfelt story, clearly you have endured so much maybe we can opt the movie rights and get Ben Affleck to play your role...</p><p>For those of us who don't drop and run at the first sign of something negative lets talk about these nerfs...  If you play any other tank you know we as Guards are OP, our Mythical was the best in the game, our DPS was way out of wack for a deffensive tank, I for one just use my taunts when nothing else is up half the time.  If you are in a higher end guild your uncontested avoidance is floating near the cap.  Some sort of Tank balancing had to happen and because SOE secretly does care about its customers, it's trying to balance the tanks not nerf the Guard.</p><p>Some of these nerfs affect all classes, like the uncontested change, and some hit us hard and may go to far (like our Mythical is pretty much meh, tho I am tired of the contstant stuns from the trash mobs in VP and it may help).  Frankly it sucks, but can we still do the thing we need to do? That's hold agro and survive, if we're doing low DPS but holding agro and surviving who cares?  That is our primary role, not t2 DPS.  And if in beta we can't do these things, here is where we have to /feedback /bug not /whine.</p><p>My Big concern is SOE nerfering our DPS to much which will cut into our agro control on November 18th.  Am I going to need 200 aa's on day 1 in order to be effective at my primary role?  If so these nerfs have gone to far, if not whatever sucks to be nerfed, but I see the big picture here.</p><p>I for one will be one of the guards sticking around for the next two years, not the guard that comes back afterwhile and claims how clever he is for using the ingenuity of others who stuck it out.</p><p>*edit spelling mistake*</p>

[woolf2k]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>RoK mobs won't crit, only TSO mobs (and future expansion mobs) will.</p><p>And as far as the "If you nerf guardians you nerf the raid" argument goes, with all the AAs and gear that we're getting with TSO, RoK content is going to be a joke even for non-mythical'd out guilds.</p></blockquote><p>you sure about this?</p><p>stunning was something that old world mobs did not do then they introduced it with RoK and now even a lowly rat will stun you even if it's gray.</p><p>social - mobs weren't social and then they introduced it with, I think it was, KoS and then suddenly every mob was social although I think they've scaled this back now days.</p><p>so in other words, don't be so quick to think new mob capabilities aren't going to be passed along to the rest of the world unless it's written down on paper... history shows that it will.</p>

[Kreagan De'Unerro]

<p>My concern is how are these changes goin to effect non high end raid guards? What if you do not have VP gear or other comparable? Is average Joe Guard goin to be able to handle tanking the instances/dungeons in the expansion?</p><p>I have my gear, but will this make guards so gimped people will not play them at all?</p><p>I know even though SKs,Zerks and Pallys were gimped compared to the guard they still outnumbered us across most servers. SKs prob by a count of 10 to 1.</p><p>Guards are a pain in the but to do solo content with as it is since we don't get the likes of Harm Touchs, Life Taps, heals, wards, massive health regen, etc.... We rely on other classes, that was/is our weakness. Without other classes we are gimped. But these other plate tanks can solo just about anything in the game. Pre-Myth or not, much better then we ever could.</p>

[Undorett]

<p><cite>Jaine@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>RoK mobs won't crit, only TSO mobs (and future expansion mobs) will.</p><p>And as far as the "If you nerf guardians you nerf the raid" argument goes, with all the AAs and gear that we're getting with TSO, RoK content is going to be a joke even for non-mythical'd out guilds.</p></blockquote><p>you sure about this?</p><p>stunning was something that old world mobs did not do then they introduced it with RoK and now even a lowly rat will stun you even if it's gray.</p><p>social - mobs weren't social and then they introduced it with, I think it was, KoS and then suddenly every mob was social although I think they've scaled this back now days.</p><p>so in other words, don't be so quick to think new mob capabilities aren't going to be passed along to the rest of the world unless it's written down on paper... history shows that it will.</p></blockquote><p>It was posted in beta by the red names that the crits would only be from TSO mobs, thats how Xalmat knows.</p>

[rabid.pooh]

<p><cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My concern is how are these changes goin to effect non high end raid guards? What if you do not have VP gear or other comparable? Is average Joe Guard goin to be able to handle tanking the instances/dungeons in the expansion?</p><p>I have my gear, but will this make guards so gimped people will not play them at all?</p><p>I know even though SKs,Zerks and Pallys were gimped compared to the guard they still outnumbered us across most servers. SKs prob by a count of 10 to 1.</p><p>Guards are a pain in the but to do solo content with as it is since we don't get the likes of Harm Touchs, Life Taps, heals, wards, massive health regen, etc.... We rely on other classes, that was/is our weakness. Without other classes we are gimped. But these other plate tanks can solo just about anything in the game. Pre-Myth or not, much better then we ever could.</p></blockquote><p>As I understand it, it's raid mobs that are critting not normal ones, TBH I haven't looked at my parses tho.  From what I can gather SOE is putting this in to the raid content so the raiders aren't so OP when they hit the instances.</p><p>Not all the new content is group mobs, there are a few zones left with the single pulls, but guards will really have to learn their class better now to deal with these group encounters.  The other tank classes do have an advantage on us when it comes to group agro.</p><p>I'm sorry I can't speak to gear and what effect it has on MC geared guards.  I think they should be okay.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>MC Geared Guardians should be working very quickly to upgrade <em>out</em> of MC armor. But having said that it's still perfectly suitable for your low to mid 70s while you solo. The lowest TSO zone is level 77, and it's an outdoor solo zone.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>RoK mobs won't crit, only TSO mobs (and future expansion mobs) will.</p><p>And as far as the "If you nerf guardians you nerf the raid" argument goes, with all the AAs and gear that we're getting with TSO, RoK content is going to be a joke even for non-mythical'd out guilds.</p></blockquote><p>After grinding aa, it might be.</p><p>However when we zone into VP on 11-18, we're going to be extremely nerfed compared to when we zoned into VP at 11-17.</p><p>I have severe doubts on my ability to hold raid aggro on 11-18, and I don't think my guild is going to accept, hey sorry I can't tank for you for 4 weeks while I go grind AA.</p><p>Currently I advocate bringing back the great warrior strike of eq1.  It worked for us then, might think about it again with TSO.</p>

[Kreagan De'Unerro]

<p><cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not all the new content is group mobs, there are a few zones left with the single pulls, but guards will really have to learn their class better now to deal with these group encounters.  The other tank classes do have an advantage on us when it comes to group agro.</p><p>I'm sorry I can't speak to gear and what effect it has on MC geared guards.  I think they should be okay.</p></blockquote><p>I rarely have issues holding groups of mobs already. I can handle 3-4 mobs from SoH and 2-3 VP trash mobs with barely ever losing agro unless someone isnt assisting properly. Though the new warlock revamp may make things difficult along with Conjies.</p><p>I already mass pull zones, trying to maintain agro while holding 6-8 heroics in an instance while DPS is goin nutz is fun for me. I use to be an Inquisitor, but hated healing slow tanks a few years ago so that is why I made a tank. Haven't touched my Inq much since.</p>