hate positional increase on insolence with our mythical discussion [Archive]

LygerT

07-28-2008, 01:02 AM

ok, well i want everyone's opinions on the change for the mythical and our insolence +5 hate positional taunt added to it via the mythical.what i want to know is who(must be aware of the change and exactly how it affects you or you must have the mythical currently and know its strengths and weak points) is for this change or who is against this change to insolence and if against i would like input on how exactly you would change it. want it on a different ability and how would you have it work exactly? want a completely new ability to replace one of our old decapitated ones? be sure to list specifics so or just a for or against so i can get an idea of who wants it and who wants something different. i just am curious to know as this has an impact on an ability that many of us use on a fairly common occasion, though there is ways to work it from several angles with the mythical equipped or swapping it out temporarily i still want to know who thinks it will be sufficient or if it will cause you issues doing your job in this class.

Endorplasmic

07-28-2008, 02:18 AM

I think the proposed change to Insolence will turn the ability into a situational ability instead of one that is used often.There are enough encounters in the game (raid zone or otherwise) where getting +5 on the hate list is a pretty bad thing (any encounter that is 2 tanked where adds are near the named).I propose that Open Wounds would be a perfect place to add an ability to help us climb the hate list. If this is *only* for a mythical weapon, it would be awesome for the fact that the ability is perma on the weapon at this point (minus the haste of course). Why not have it be a hate modifier spell? We already have the AA to reduce it's cast time, the spell isn't NEARLY as useful in a raid as it once was (hitting haste cap or very near cap the spell collects dust).Further, it should only up you on the hate list on the current target. This will rule out any crazy "Oh #$(# I hit gibe and pulled the world on me" situations. Why not make it like re-enforcement, or holy ground, or something that you could cast with confidence KNOWING you'll hit the top of the hate list.With our only snap agro tool Rescue, there are times when I personally need to get the mob back and that ability doesn't work. At that point it's straggling to up your DPS as fast as possible to attempt to get the mob back. It just sucks.So in closing, I'd propose to scrap the +5 position AE hate on Insolence and add a single target guarantee top-of-the-hate-list to Open Wounds.edit: even after sleeping on it... Would it be so bad to get a whole new button to press for the proposed change? If not, than on a mythical OW is probably the best shot, but for the zerks that can't get this mythical I'm not sure what else to suggest for an augmentation to a spell.

Judist

07-28-2008, 05:21 AM

I would like to see snap aggro tools that are defined by the parent archtypes and raid roles. Unfortunately there are very few unique ways to modify hate or hate positions, so bear with me if my idea does not sound "fresh."Brawlers: The monk and Bruiser share similar snap aggro tools. Peel (monk) and Divide and Conquer (Bruiser) are emergency "force target" abilities. IMO this suits the archtype's role perfectly. Neither abilities guarantee max hate when they expire (which is usually not desired). The goal is to use these abilities to save your raid or pull/place targets until a plate tank can reestablish aggro.Crusaders: Currently the paladin is the only crusader with innate snap aggro. Holy ground is basically a 24 position rescue. It achieves max hate, but does not sustain it. Shadowknights (unfortunately) require a mythical for snap aggro. Their clicky (Touch of Death) is basically an 8 second peel. If SK's receive an "innate" snap aggro spell, I would like to see something very similar to the paladins. Something to top hate list immediately.Warriors: Guards are the only warrior with an "innate" form of snap aggro. However reinforcement differs because its half snap aggro and half aggro maintenance. There are many occasions where a Guard will use reinforcement when they already have top hate. It can be a wonderful tool to allow the raid to DPS from the very start as hard as possible.I would like to see the Berserker's tool fall into the category... The ability to establish max hate (not just force targeting) with the bonus of maintaining hate via position modifiers over duration.To recap...Brawlers = Force targetingCrusaders = Super rescuesWarriors = ReinforcementsIs it redundant? Yes. But IMO it NEEDS to be +1 hate on attack over a duration. How its made slightly unique to Berserks should be up to the Berserker community.

Elanjar

07-28-2008, 05:31 AM

I would like to see a change that helps those in the class that cannot get a mythical. I like Gibe the way it is and would hate to have it be a situational use. I believe Gut Roar is the best candidate for change. Perhaps something along the lines of:When cast- (Recast 5min?? 3.5min??) whatever is fair- increases hate position by 2, increases threat to target by 850 - 1050-applies gut roar (lasts 5 sec): - 50% chance to increase hate position by 1 and threat by 450 on a successful melee attack **if not berserk - 75% chance to increase hate position by 1 and threat by 450 on a successful melee attack **if berserkSince this could be gotten via AA it makes it more reachable for those of us that cannot get a mythical.Hell I'd be happy if it was just like a single snap with a debuff. Increases hate position by 7 increase threat by 1k decreases targets mit vs s/c/p by 1000 (recast 3.5 - 5 min)edit: added values

Slayer505

07-28-2008, 05:47 AM

I think opinions on this will vary depending on the role of each Berserker. This change is good for MT Berserkers, not so good for OT Berserkers, except to be used when the MT goes down. As an MT Berserker (are there even any others that regularly post here?) I like this change a lot since it will make it easier for my DPSers to burn hard right from the start on mobs like the chain stunning Wyverns and Drakes in VP. It'll also make it much easier for me to get aggro back after a death. I'm not sure what I'd change if I was an OT Berserker tbh.

Bremer

07-28-2008, 08:04 AM

This effect turns an ability I cast every time it is up into a very situational spell and so even lowers my overall hate gain.Even if an open AE Rescue type spell would fit with our class, it should not ruin another ability or be the replacement for a real snap aggro.My solution would be adding this in the Beserker tree. The AE range enhancer has absolutely no use, I would replace it with our snap aggro, which should look somewhat like:On any successfull attack Increases hate position by 3 if Beserk Increases hate position by 32-3 min recast, 15-20 sec duration, no (yes, you read right, no, in letters N O) penalty, just normal power cost (100 or so)And Gut Roar should be changed to the following:Rescue now has a 100 % chance of ... (insert current Gut Roar description here)Applies Gut Roar when activated, lasts for 5 seconds (instant cast) Turns Rescue into an open AE (or simply give new spell on same time with Rescue)This would give us an open AE rescue for the few situations we need one. You could make a simple macro like with the clickie Beserk to turn Rescue into an open AE when you want. And it would be balanced because of the long recast of Rescue, so people can't complain we get more than everyone else. Before of course the whole line (forgot name) from Gut Roar has to be changed so you could consider spending more than 5 points in it.

Ashmoda

07-28-2008, 11:01 AM

As a couple of posters have mentioned, our Berserker tree is ripe for changing.I'd love to have a Reinforcement equivalent, and I think the place to put our snap agro is off of our Mythical - having it tied to a weapon that may be replaced makes no long-term sense. I just don't know where to put it.Insolence - Probably the best choice. You could add a 50% chance on attack to raise a hate position as well as the reactive AE taunt, there you go.Open Wounds - Best choice for Mythical berserkers, but totally shafts non-mythical berserkers who want to DPS, so a poor choice.Juggernaut - Heh, yeah, that would be very Berserker-like, actually - lower your mitigation by 800 to give you agro, sounds like something they would do so I should probably not even mention it here <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Turmoil - No place here either, especially not with a 3-second casting time.I think the perfect situation for us in regards to Insolence and snap agro would be adding something like the following to the spell, keeping everything else intact:Applies Insolent Gibe Initial Effect. Lasts for 5.0 seconds. On any successful attack, this spell will cast Insolent Taunt on target of attack. Increases threat priority of target by 5 positions.Or something like that. There's your berserker reinforcement, you can adjust numbers, percentages, durations and names as much as you want, but the basics are there. Less duration than Reinforcement by far, less effective, but allows us to pick what we are "reinforcing" (unlike a +5 to all in AE which is proposed) and should for our purposes serve.Some of the suggestions posted above are kind of overpowered, 15-20 seconds of reinforcement on a 2 min timer and so on. We just need something to snap agro, not something that's actually better on paper than Guardian's reinforcement and Paladin's holy ground.I would probably replace something in the Cyclones tree with this, probably Enhance: Stunning Bellow with Enhance: Insolence and call it a done deal.

Obadiah

07-28-2008, 12:15 PM

It's hard to address the issue without getting into a discussion of what we'd like to have - both on and off the Mythical. As for the change to the Mythical itself, I'm all for it. Sure, it isn't exactly what I'd put on it if I could change it myself, but it helps more than it hurts IMO by providing an additional snap-aggro tool. It also keeps the focus on multiple-mob tanking, which is supposed to be our expertise. I would still consider snap-aggro as a need for the class, however, and hopefully a need that will be addressed in the expansion.I wouldn't oppose Endo's Open Wounds suggestion either, even if it were still +5 and not straight to the top. I don't use OW anymore except when soloing. Wouldn't suck for the ability to have some reason to exist again. But I think I like the actual change better, as it is AoE focused, which seems more appropriate for us. I don't oppose Grandmasterub's Gut Roar suggestion. I had that ability for a loooooooong time. It's hard to look at precisely, but when I looked through logs I could find no tangible benefit gained from it - i.e. no evidence that I was resisting something as a result of using it. Wouldn't suck for that ability to have some reason to exist. And it's AoE focused. I wouldn't mind if the incoming change was on Gut Roar instead of Insolence, but given Gut Roar's recast time that's probably a bit much.If I were designing the change to the Mythical I would add the ability "Adrenaholic" to it. Makes Adrenaline do what it @#$%ing says it will do in the description. Also increases the damage reduction to 75%. I don't think it really matters though. The change is this Wednesday (give or take). It's done. None of this is going to happen. I will go way out on a limb and opine that this is the last meaningful class change (even though it's via gear) we will see until the expansion with the possible exception of a fix to the Adrenaline ability or its description.

DasanW

07-28-2008, 12:32 PM

First, I am extreamlly appreciative that our mythical is getting looked at, granted its along with the rest, but its the first such nugget to the zerker community.Now, as far as the change, its marginal, at best. My point is that ever since EoF, the lack of a 'positional snap agro' has been glaring. Now I know there are some that feel that it is not needed until the upper RoK raids, but I disagree. I am an MT and an OT, and in both positions there are times that this is sorely needed, and NOT attached to an OUT-of-enounter AOE. If this was attached to Bellow, thats one thing, but to attach it to Gibe again makes it very situational. I still believe that the best place to attach a positional hate is to War Pledge where a hate increase is already at. Or allow a positional hate increase to be added to War Pledge via AA lines, such as Gut Roar.As far as an alternate change to the Mytical? How about adding a Turmoil like proc? or a Raid Wide Zerk proc?In the end, at least it is a move in the right direction.

victer

07-28-2008, 01:13 PM

I am a berserker with the mythical version of the weapon. I have been OT and MT in raiding since the game was launched. This expantion I have been OT the majority of the time.SOE's Perposed Changes (+5 possitions to gibe with mythical)I do not agree that we ever need snap agro on an entire encounter. The tools we have now and our awsome AE dps make grabbing adds easy enough and i think an encounter hate possition modifier is overkill and actaully going to hurt me in most situations. I will have to be VERY carefull of when useing this to make sure that I do not grab hate on a part of the encounter that I dont want to touch (for example: if i am OT i can possibly grab the name that the MT is on, or if I am MT I can possibly grab the adds that the OT is on).The 5 possitions is nice but it does not answer our problems. We need something that will ensure us to the top of the hate list. 5 possitions is nice but after a death or a total mem wipe 5 possitions in a 24 man raid will only get you to about half way into the hate list. You will still have to DPS and taunt your butt off to get to the top of the hate list (this takes time) and by the time you DO get agro you will be surrounded by a bunch of corpses.I am also not satisfied by this change because it is coupled with the mythical weapon. Players that have yet to optain the weapon are still going to be struggling and in the next tier when these weapons become obsolete we will loose this snap agro tool and have to rely on rescue again.My perposed changesI have a few suggestions and I invite SOE to choose any of them.Insolence : Keep the effect on insolence but make it a change to the spell and not an addition to the spell when you equip the weapon. Also make it so that it is not an encounter possition modifier. Have it only change possition to your current target. It would read something like this:<blockquote>Insolence (Master 1)Target SelfDuration 30 seconds<ul><li>Applies Insolent Gibe </li></ul>Increase hate to targets in Area Of Effect by 1854-2266.Increase hate to target by 3 possitions.<ul><li>When target takes any damage this spell has a 50% chance to cast Insolent Gibe on the targets attacker. </li></ul>Increase Threat to target encounter by 659.<ul><li>On any successful attack this spell has a 50% chance to cast Insolent Gibe on the target of that attack. </li></ul>Increase hate to target by 1 possition.</blockquote>This would be an answer to the gaurdian's reinforcement. They get a 12 second duration buff that adds 1 possition ANYTIME they hit something. This on the other hand lasts for 30 seconds but you only have a 50% change to grab hate every hit.Gut Roar: This is an end ability in the berserker tree. This skill is not working as intended and I dont think anyone even uses it. Lets turn it into something usefull. My idea is something like this:<blockquote>Gut RoarSingle TargetDuration 30 seconds / Recast 5 mins<ul><li>Increase hate to target by 5 possitions.</li><li>All hate generated by the Berserker is multiplied by 300% </li></ul></blockquote>This will not get you to the top of the hate list as fast as my previous suggestion but it would still really help. Think about it... our single 1.8k taunt turns into a ~6k taunt while the DPS we do generates 3x the agro also. The only flaw I see in this is forceing berserkers to spend points in the tree that opens up this ability (the tree sucks for raiding).Open wounds: This skill needs help now that mythical'd berserkers dont need it anymore. I am on the fence if this should be a change once the berserker aquires the mythical or not since this spell only becomes not needed once you aquire the weapon. My idea would be something like:<blockquote>Open Wounds (Master 1)Target SelfDuration 32 seconds<ul><li>Increase attack speed of caster by 52.</li><li>Caster will auto attack targets in Area of Effect 100% of the time blah blah blah.</li><li>On any succesfull taunt this spell will cast Open Wounds on the target of that taunt. This effect will last for 5 seconds.</li></ul>Increase hate to target by 3 possitions.Any dammage done to target is applied to casters hate gain.</blockquote>

victer

07-28-2008, 01:59 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>My solution would be adding this in the Beserker tree. The AE range enhancer has absolutely no use, I would replace it with our snap aggro, </blockquote>I disagree. That ending ability also gives 5% to the resistability or our taunts. Makeing it slightly easier for our taunts to land on orange mobs. I think this is the most important end ability in the berserker tree. The clicky berserk thingy is nice and arguably better but i still think having all my taunts 5% harder to resist wins.But this might be the wrong thread to talk about our Berserker tree. Lets stay focused on they change that SOE is offering and our thoughts on it and how to replace/fix it.

Elanjar

07-28-2008, 03:27 PM

<cite>victer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>My solution would be adding this in the Beserker tree. The AE range enhancer has absolutely no use, I would replace it with our snap aggro, </blockquote>I disagree. That ending ability also gives 5% to the resistability or our taunts. Makeing it slightly easier for our taunts to land on orange mobs. I think this is the most important end ability in the berserker tree. The clicky berserk thingy is nice and arguably better but i still think having all my taunts 5% harder to resist wins.But this might be the wrong thread to talk about our Berserker tree. Lets stay focused on they change that SOE is offering and our thoughts on it and how to replace/fix it.</blockquote>/agreeif any changes should be made to cyclone it should be: -remove the extended range. and instead -lower the casting times of AE combat arts (blue background only) to .5 sec or even 1 seckeep the 5% harder to resist taunts

Bremer

07-28-2008, 04:38 PM

Ok, if you think 5 % increased taunt hit rate is better than a snap aggro...

victer

07-28-2008, 04:44 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, if you think 5 % increased taunt hit rate is better than a snap aggro...</blockquote>huh who said that? you said that the AA end line is useless and you wanted it completely changed.I said its unnessesary.Read the posts please.

Zhonata

07-28-2008, 06:38 PM

Alright to start with I like the proposed change to our mythical. In my experience I have never had any problems maintaining aggro and in fact Zerkers ability to maintain aggro is one of the best. I also understand that Some Zerkers play their class differently than others.To start with I'm kinda tired of the constant "we need an answer to *Insert Guardian Abilty Here* ". I am well aware of the reason for this; this is because Guardian can do about the same single target damage as us now. They are impeding on our territory as Offensive tanks and so everyone wants to have our ability matched to Even out the playing field. There argument there is that DPS=Hate and they are right guardians wouldn't be able to hold aggro without their current dps. In there lies the problem. WE as a class do not need to have our abilities modified to become more guardians, guardians needed to either be knock down the DPS rung or we need to be boosted. There needs to be the same clear difference in Offensive tanking ability between the guardian and berserker as there is between Defensive tanking. A guardian can DPS spec and sit right below me on the parse, but the heck if I could Tank spec and even come close to his health, Aggro, and utilities for defensive tanking.Simply Put GUARDIAN DO TO MUCH DMG they are defensive tank and they should not under any circumstance ever be able to out damage the offensive tank. Zerkers are suppose to gain their Aggro through DPS and guardians are suppose to gain hate through Utilities and taunts that was the original concept as it stand Guardians are stepping on our toes a bit while still maintaining their utilities which makes them the better choice. That is my biggest perceived issue with our class is that simply put we are being over shadowed because the Dev's did a quick FIX on the guardian aggro control, they basically made them Zerkers with Guardian Utilities.The other reason for The poor outlook on Zerkers is the lack of AOE raid mobs. In AOE encounter we can outdps almost anyone and that is when we shine and the gap between our dps and the guardians dps is clear. Our Potential DPS Far excedes the guardians.Ok so on to some actually useful stuff. Zerkers don't have an issue maintain aggro we do a lot of DPS, but I think that need a little boost and here is how.1. Turmoil Casting=1 sec - Just like Juggernaught and Open Wounds - Currently the 3 sec cast time mostly negates the damage boost in combat.2. Open Wounds - Increase Max Aoe Targets from 4 to 6. This will give it meaning after we have or mythical.3. Bloodshower, Intrusion, Stunning Bellow Casting=1 sec . All 3 need to have their cast time mimic our AA line AOE abilities currently these abilities are completely useless as they step on our auto attack to use them and our first attack does more damage let alone adding in double attacks and procs.4. Fix our Hit/miss Ratio Currently i am missing about 5-8% more often than every other DPS class in the game.5 Fix Adrenaline: When it is activated it need to say on regarless whether we are zerk or not just like Juggernaught.These changes would give us a DPS boost furthering the gap between Zerkers and Guardians. This would Make Open Wounds useful after we get our mythical +2 AOE Targets/haste and add 3 more currently useless ability to our CA cycle.As for the Request for Snap aggro. Yes, we need snap aggro. No, we don't need reinforcement or any variant thereof.I happen to like the Idea to turn Gut Roar into an actual hate Position Tool This would actually give meaning to our Debilitation line. I agree that we need to have a standard Hate position tool outside of rescue just like the rest of the fighters. Any hate position tool we gain needs to be about snatch aggro though and not maintaining if you want to switch to defensive stance and maintain aggro like a guardian then roll one. If you want to man up and fight raid mobs in offensive stance keep riding the pony. On the AA change line of thought it would also be nice to have the abilty to lower Adrenalines Reuse timer and its mana reduction. After all it is pretty much our only defensive abilty.Finally our mythical. I'm not exactly sure why people are whining about this addition to Insolence as something that makes in situational. The "ONLY" time this ability would be situational is if you, the OT, and your MT are tanking the mobs within 10m of one another. Even then the Guardian would have more than enough hate postion gaining abilties to maintain aggro over their mob. This of course is assuming that you are even in the top 5 for the MT mob which if you are then you should be more worried about beating your OT mob up and maintaining aggro than DPS to get high on the parse.IMO it is perfect as it grabs aggro for us and then lets Insolence's proc work for maintaining it. This Addition to our mythical gives us one of the powerful aggro control abilities in game and yet there are still whiners who want reinforcement. Ask how guardians if they would like an AOE +5 hate position tool that effects all targets within 10m........I will however to appease the neh Sayers say that it could be added to whirlwinds effect and only be in effect as long as it is active. I however don't see the need for this

Aull

07-29-2008, 01:45 AM

Lets be fair shall we. This will not solve anything for all the zerkers who do not have their mythical. Snap aggro will still remain a problem when equipment is expected to solve the issue. Personally snap aggo is a class issue that should be looked into and fixed. Honestly zerkers have nill for snap aggro minus rescue we all know this. No reinforcement, harm touch, holy ground, ect. When high end raiding equipment is expected to solve class issues there will be many players loosing ground. Honestly high end raid guilds that do the elite zones are very strict as to whom is in the guild they run. The average Joe with mediocre skills will not have a snowballs chance in hell getting into these types of guilds so they can attain equipment in order to fix class issues.The not that making the mythical have a snap aggro tool is a bad idea but it just seems that it will leave a huge portion of the zerkers with a problem they will never see fixed. Unless they get the mythical.

Zhonata

07-29-2008, 06:21 AM

<cite>GrandMasterUb wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>victer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>My solution would be adding this in the Beserker tree. The AE range enhancer has absolutely no use, I would replace it with our snap aggro, </blockquote>I disagree. That ending ability also gives 5% to the resistability or our taunts. Makeing it slightly easier for our taunts to land on orange mobs. I think this is the most important end ability in the berserker tree. The clicky berserk thingy is nice and arguably better but i still think having all my taunts 5% harder to resist wins.But this might be the wrong thread to talk about our Berserker tree. Lets stay focused on they change that SOE is offering and our thoughts on it and how to replace/fix it.</blockquote>/agreeif any changes should be made to cyclone it should be: -remove the extended range. and instead -lower the casting times of AE combat arts (blue background only) to .5 sec or even 1 seckeep the 5% harder to resist taunts</blockquote>/agreeCompletly agree with this post. The AE range increase while is usefull sometimes, I have not missed it when i respected and didnt have it. It has also gotten me in more trouble than helped me in the past.This proposed change of having it lower our AOE cast time is perfect, however it needs to include all of our AOE's period. Its simple math unless the AOE can do 6k+ to primary target and 3k+ to 3 other Aoe targets then it isnt worth interrupting my Auto Attack. Thus the ability is useless which sums up all our aoe abilties right now.I would propose.Cyclones-Reduces Resistability of Taunts by 10%-Reduce all Berserker CA AOE line abilties cast time by 50%-Improve reuse speed of Insolence's by 15%That makes all of our aoe's usefull again and gives us a 20-25 sec reduction on Insolence.

victer

07-29-2008, 11:39 AM

<cite>Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>/agree Completly agree with this post. The AE range increase while is usefull sometimes, I have not missed it when i respected and didnt have it. It has also gotten me in more trouble than helped me in the past.This proposed change of having it lower our AOE cast time is perfect, however it needs to include all of our AOE's period. Its simple math unless the AOE can do 6k+ to primary target and 3k+ to 3 other Aoe targets then it isnt worth interrupting my Auto Attack. Thus the ability is useless which sums up all our aoe abilties right now.I would propose.Cyclones-Reduces Resistability of Taunts by 10%-Reduce all Berserker CA AOE line abilties cast time by 50%-Improve reuse speed of Insolence's by 15%That makes all of our aoe's usefull again and gives us a 20-25 sec reduction on Insolence.</blockquote>This thread is about the hate possition increase on the mythical... your thoughts on it and a possible alternative.I think this is the major issue the devs have with us. Some zerkers want more and more and more. Look... the simple fact is bottom line if you take away everyones mythical weapons what does this class really need? A Snap agro tool. We dont need to have our AE timers reduced or any of that stuff. Lets not confuse the devs with a bunch of other things you would LIKE to see changed. God knows theres plenty of things i'd love to see changed but this thread is not about that. Lets stick to the basics and get this snap agro problem figured out first cause after all that is all we really NEED.

Obadiah

07-29-2008, 12:00 PM

<cite>victer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>This thread is about the hate possition increase on the mythical... your thoughts on it and a possible alternative.I think this is the major issue the devs have with us. Some zerkers want more and more and more. Look... the simple fact is bottom line if you take away everyones mythical weapons what does this class really need? A Snap agro tool. We dont need to have our AE timers reduced or any of that stuff. Lets not confuse the devs with a bunch of other things you would LIKE to see changed. God knows theres plenty of things i'd love to see changed but this thread is not about that. Lets stick to the basics and get this snap agro problem figured out first cause after all that is all we really NEED.</blockquote>I wholeheartedly agree. I would go further though. This thread, our thoughts on the change to the mythical and possible alternatives are also moot. The change goes in what, tomorrow? Mythical "tweaks" are done now; life goes on. As has been posited elsewhere, putting Snap Aggro on the Mythical doesn't really fix the fact that Berserkers WITHOUT the Mythical are lacking in a snap aggro tool. Is that what we really need above all else? Maybe. Personally I'd rather see Adrenaline fixed, and hopefully that will happen first since any new threat position ability won't be coming until the expansion.

Zhonata

07-29-2008, 04:38 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>ok, well i want everyone's opinions on the change for the mythical and our insolence +5 hate positional taunt added to it via the mythical.what i want to know is who(must be aware of the change and exactly how it affects you or you must have the mythical currently and know its strengths and weak points) is for this change or who is against this change to insolence and if against i would like input on how exactly you would change it. want it on a different ability and how would you have it work exactly? want a completely new ability to replace one of our old decapitated ones? be sure to list specifics so or just a for or against so i can get an idea of who wants it and who wants something different. i just am curious to know as this has an impact on an ability that many of us use on a fairly common occasion, though there is ways to work it from several angles with the mythical equipped or swapping it out temporarily i still want to know who thinks it will be sufficient or if it will cause you issues doing your job in this class. </blockquote>-VicterAcutually, it is relevant and I have commented on the my thoughts for the mythical and or proposing a new hate postion tool. I was simply expanded on his thought of replacing cyclone with a more useful abilty. The Dev's are ultimatly going to do what they think is best so the more ideas the have to work with the better. I also have to agree with your point about some zerker wanting more and more. I personally dont think asking for our currently useless aoe abilties to be revamped either directly or indirectly through the AA change is asking for more and more it is asking for something to be Fixed. Right now if they just flat took away all our AOE abilties i wouldnt even turn my head because that is how useless they are as said before ACT doesnt even remember the last time i used any one of them. Now asking for A mock Reinforcement, 75% Adrenaline, and god know what else uber silly idea yeah that would be in the more and more category.The point I want to get across was the reduction in the AOE abilties the Insolence change was something that someone else mentioned, i liked it, and would probably fall into the more and mroe category, but the AOE cast time reduction is still needed.As far as the mythical is concerned I have yet to see anyone come up with a valid point to not have the proposed changed to the mythical happen. I do agree that we need to have a snap aggro abilty that isnt attached to a weapon and I agreed with the proposed chance to Gut Roar as it is currently a broken abilty.

LygerT

07-29-2008, 05:18 PM

i'm trying not to interject on this discussion but please try to keep replies on topic....

Obadiah

07-29-2008, 05:27 PM

<cite>Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite> Now asking for A mock Reinforcement, 75% Adrenaline, and god know what else uber silly idea yeah that would be in the more and more category.</blockquote>Hey now, I thought it was pretty clear that my 75% Adrenaline suggestion was sarcasm. I [still] just want it to do what it says it will do. The AE and PBAoE abilities do still have some use. If the mobs aren't all in front of you, or 1-2 is in range of those but out of melee range, they help. I notice it coming in handy on things like the books in VP in case one is out of position.

victer

07-29-2008, 05:42 PM

<cite>Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite> <blockquote>As far as the mythical is concerned I have yet to see anyone come up with a valid point to not have the proposed changed to the mythical happen. </blockquote>I thought most of us are in agreement that a +5 possition modifier to AOE targets is going to hurt us more then anything? I dont want to risk the chance of pulling the name off the MT if im OT or pulling the adds off the OT if im MT.Is that not a valid point?

Zhonata

07-29-2008, 06:24 PM

No, it isnt a valid enough point to out weigh the good the abilty would do for the class.To start with 10m isnt that big you guys are acting like it effectse the entire zone. Even if you are sitting with 10m OT a mob +5 postions, even if you are indirectly hitting the mob with your Auto Attack aoes, is not going be enough to you bring to the first slot above the MT on aggro. Say you do manage to grab aggro as long as you are not trying to maintain aggro on the mob the MT would have aggro back before the mob could even turn all the way around to smack you.+5 hate postion is simple not enough postion lvling to gank aggro off the MT if your OT a diffrent mob. Sorry.Now I could see a concern with ganking aggro off of an OT, if you are MT, if he was within range, but again they should be more than capable of grabing aggro back with their own snap aggro abilty

Judist

07-29-2008, 08:29 PM

And if the MT dies? Currently in a fully mythical raidforce, Zerks will be the only fighter w/o any guarentee their snaps going to work. Its simply not snap aggro unless you can go from "Zero to Hero" using it.And just like rescue's +3 positions, there will be plenty of occassions when +5 simply wont cut it. On those occasions when your MT will face loads of spike damage, the Paladins ability to hold adds (amends) AND their ability to grab a loose mob/namer instantly will look alot better to your raid. Better than watching a Zerk (only +5 up) whos trying to chase down a mob while is 1-shots half your healers..

Endorplasmic

07-29-2008, 10:32 PM

<cite>Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, it isnt a valid enough point to out weigh the good the abilty would do for the class.To start with 10m isnt that big you guys are acting like it effectse the entire zone. Even if you are sitting with 10m OT a mob +5 postions, even if you are indirectly hitting the mob with your Auto Attack aoes, is not going be enough to you bring to the first slot above the MT on aggro. Say you do manage to grab aggro as long as you are not trying to maintain aggro on the mob the MT would have aggro back before the mob could even turn all the way around to smack you.+5 hate postion is simple not enough postion lvling to gank aggro off the MT if your OT a diffrent mob. Sorry.Now I could see a concern with ganking aggro off of an OT, if you are MT, if he was within range, but again they should be more than capable of grabing aggro back with their own snap aggro abilty</blockquote>Keeping on topic, it's a VERY valid point. Also it's a 20m if you went down the cyclone line (which I'm sure most - if not all zerks are down).You kind of contridict yourself in the post here.. I mean you say right in your post that +5 hate isn't enough to gank agro off the MT if you're on a different mob (which is false, as an experiment target the MT mob and drop rescue... see what happens and that's only +3) but on the other hand you say that the proposed change is a good snap agro tool.So how will one snap agro on something when it's not enough to snap agro from? Seems the points are pretty valid.I also find it over the top when you run into a situation where you have to time your snap agro tool with another class. There isn't enough time to evaluate the situation, you need agro fast and now.. Sorry I don't babysit other classes snap agro recast timers.It's not hard to realize the proposed change to gibe adding the +5 hate to it has made the spell insanly situational.

Zhonata

07-30-2008, 02:27 AM

<cite>Endorplasmic wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, it isnt a valid enough point to out weigh the good the abilty would do for the class.To start with 10m isnt that big you guys are acting like it effectse the entire zone. Even if you are sitting with 10m OT a mob +5 postions, even if you are indirectly hitting the mob with your Auto Attack aoes, is not going be enough to you bring to the first slot above the MT on aggro. Say you do manage to grab aggro as long as you are not trying to maintain aggro on the mob the MT would have aggro back before the mob could even turn all the way around to smack you.+5 hate postion is simple not enough postion lvling to gank aggro off the MT if your OT a diffrent mob. Sorry.Now I could see a concern with ganking aggro off of an OT, if you are MT, if he was within range, but again they should be more than capable of grabing aggro back with their own snap aggro abilty</blockquote>Keeping on topic, it's a VERY valid point. Also it's a 20m if you went down the cyclone line (which I'm sure most - if not all zerks are down).You kind of contridict yourself in the post here.. I mean you say right in your post that +5 hate isn't enough to gank agro off the MT if you're on a different mob (which is false, as an experiment target the MT mob and drop rescue... see what happens and that's only +3) but on the other hand you say that the proposed change is a good snap agro tool.So how will one snap agro on something when it's not enough to snap agro from? Seems the points are pretty valid.I also find it over the top when you run into a situation where you have to time your snap agro tool with another class. There isn't enough time to evaluate the situation, you need agro fast and now.. Sorry I don't babysit other classes snap agro recast timers.It's not hard to realize the proposed change to gibe adding the +5 hate to it has made the spell insanly situational.</blockquote>Your right I was confusing Insolence with our CA aoe's.But no Im not contridicting myself, if you are DPS on the MT target you SHOULD be within the top 5 hate postions thus a +5 hate postion tool is very useful and this accounts for 90% of encounters since there are so few AOE encounters. As far as OT'ing a seperate mob, and ill throw you a bone saying our AOE was hitting it as well, If you even have a remotely compentent raid force you will be right above the healers in hate postion so like 18th, +5 Hate postion is not going to gank aggro period. IF any dps class is being out dpsed by your AOE Auto attack then you have some serious issues. This is the same concept as coming into a fight or DIEING and trying to use rescue to gank aggro you WONT. Because if it did then we wouldnt be having this discussion.I dont recall saying anything about Baby sitting another class or timing your snap aggro with another class. IF you are are OT'ing a mob, lets say the other 22 people in the raid are afk, and you pull the MT target I would hope your mt would have the sense to Taunt/Rescue/Reinforce what ever to get the mob back instantly or as quick as possible just as if a ranger or assasin ganked aggro. Say you are MT, lets say everone minus the OT is attacking the MT mob, and you manage to pull the OT's mob so that is what again the same situation he is the only one fighting you for aggro and a single +5 increase will take 1 sec to switch back. As long as the OT is attacking the mob they will out postion you easily let alone using taunts/rescue/Reinforcement/ holy ground whatever.Your argument about the abilty being situation if it applies at all is only going to even count for maybe 10% of the encounter where you have to Dual tank and stay within 20m of one another. Nex and Phar' dar being 2 encounter off the top of my head. I have already said that I aggre that this shouldnt be our only means of snap aggro and we need a standard Snap aggro abilty just like the rest of the fighters, but the addition to Insolence Gibe is a good thing IMO from the sounds of it it is going live anyways so time will tell.

Judist

07-30-2008, 08:35 AM

Odin's FrenzyDuration 6 secondsCasting .25 secondsRecast 2 minutes 30 secondsOn a successful melee attack this will cast Enraging Frenzy on target of attack.-Increases threat to target by 500-Increases threat priority of target by 3 positions I counterbalanced this against reinforcement as best as I could. You'd have slightly less than half the time of a reinforcement, but each strike is 3x more powerful. It should provide just enough positional increases to go from absolute 0 to 24 on a single target within 6 seconds, tho CA spam would make it much quicker.Due to the duration and mechanics of +positions per strike, its also very well suited for "gathering" adds. If you miss a few mobs initially (when combining Frenzy with an AoE) you will have time to send out another AoE (or continue using natural AE autos) to gather what mobs are still loose.Downfall would be having to click off your mythical before its use (if your an MT) if you dont want adds sticking to you. Also 6 seconds can pass quickly so you have less time for error.

Zhonata

07-30-2008, 09:34 AM

Hmmm.... That is cool.

victer

07-30-2008, 10:17 AM

<cite>Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Your argument about the abilty being situation if it applies at all is only going to even count for maybe 10% of the encounter where you have to Dual tank and stay within 20m of one another.</blockquote>You have access to VP and all the mob within right? Do you not remember that pretty much every one of the Named mobs have a ridiculasly HUGE hit box? You may think that you are 50m away but you are still in range for your AE's to hit.

Zhonata

07-30-2008, 11:38 AM

<cite>victer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Your argument about the abilty being situation if it applies at all is only going to even count for maybe 10% of the encounter where you have to Dual tank and stay within 20m of one another.</blockquote>You have access to VP and all the mob within right? Do you not remember that pretty much every one of the Named mobs have a ridiculasly HUGE hit box? You may think that you are 50m away but you are still in range for your AE's to hit.</blockquote>Yeah Im well aware of how big the mobs Hit boxes are and as I already stated there are 2 Encounter in VP were this abilty would even have the possibilty of becoming situational, Nexona and Phar' Dar. So that is Kluzen the Protector, Elder Ekron, Druushk, Taskmaster Nichok, Milyex Vioren, Wasp Queen + Qunard Ashenclaw, Hoshkar, Xygoz, Travenro the Skygazer, and Silverwing that this ability will not effect the fights out come other than allow us to grab aggro if the MT dies. So that is 10/12 encounter that I personally would rather have a +5 hate postion tool because it will be usefull if I am DPS'ing the MT target and he goes down. Encounters that have the small chance of making Insolence Situational.*Correct me if I missed some**This is based off my guild and the way we postion the mobs*There is 1/10 encounter in PR *However Trival It is* There is 0/1 Encounter in PawBusterThere is 0/1 encouter in ThuggaThere is 0/1 Encounter in VSThere is 1/9 Encounters in Kor-ShaThere is 0/1 Encounter in CODThere is 2/12 Encounters in VPThere is 0/6 Encounter in SOH *As far as I have been*It is clearly smaller than 10%, but my point being as it was before is this change is good. We cant have everything, aparently, and I still dont believe that this abilty will pull a mob of the MT IF you are OTing a Seperate mob.

Bremer

07-30-2008, 01:10 PM

<cite>Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><strike>Nexona </strike>and <strike>Phar' Dar</strike>. So that is <strike>Kluzen the Protector</strike>, <strike>Elder Ekron</strike>, <strike>Druushk</strike>, <strike>Taskmaster Nichok</strike>, <strike>Milyex Vioren</strike>, <strike>Wasp Queen + Qunard Ashenclaw</strike>, <strike>Hoshkar</strike>, <strike>Xygoz</strike>, <strike>Travenro the Skygazer</strike>, and <strike>Silverwing </strike>that this ability will not effect the fights out come other than allow us to grab aggro if the MT dies</blockquote>On all crossed mobs you are either on the mob anyway and should get the mob with Rescue or instantly or they don't need to be tanked or you are not on the mob and need snap aggro to get them. Or you are MT and if you die you'll get the mob back only if all DDs are dead because you don't have snap aggro.This change will do nothing good and won't solve one problem.

Zhonata

07-30-2008, 04:51 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><strike>Nexona </strike>and <strike>Phar' Dar</strike>. So that is <strike>Kluzen the Protector</strike>, <strike>Elder Ekron</strike>, <strike>Druushk</strike>, <strike>Taskmaster Nichok</strike>, <strike>Milyex Vioren</strike>, <strike>Wasp Queen + Qunard Ashenclaw</strike>, <strike>Hoshkar</strike>, <strike>Xygoz</strike>, <strike>Travenro the Skygazer</strike>, and <strike>Silverwing </strike>that this ability will not effect the fights out come other than allow us to grab aggro if the MT dies</blockquote>On all crossed mobs you are either on the mob anyway and should get the mob with Rescue or instantly or they don't need to be tanked or you are not on the mob and need snap aggro to get them. Or you are MT and if you die you'll get the mob back only if all DDs are dead because you don't have snap aggro.This change will do nothing good and won't solve one problem.</blockquote>/sighIm pretty sure I already said this, BUT I will repeat. WE-DO-NEED-A-STANDARD-SNAP-AGGRO-ABILTY.We are talking about our mythical, I dont know about you but I dont want a weapon to be used to Fix our class and in the interest of just taking into account our mythical the abilty is a very good one. The biggest arguement I have seen is this update ruining Insolence and making it primarly a situational abilty which I disagree with. Now their maybe situation where it is situational, but the times it is not far out way the times it is. Even if it were they can make it attached to Whirlwind and POOF problem solved.Some people say the glass is half full some people say the glass is half empty. You strike me as the type of person who sees it half empty. If you are expecting this mythical change to FIX our class then of course you are going to be disappointed. I agree that this abilty will not take you from 0 to tank, but it is better than what we currently have.

Bremer

07-30-2008, 06:32 PM

<cite>Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I agree that this abilty will not take you from 0 to tank, but it is better than what we currently have.</blockquote>No, because this will be the replacement for a real fix. Aerilak wanted to test how cheap he can buy us und obviously it is very cheap. He said that this will be snap aggro, it is not, but if people are buying it he won't give us a real snap aggro. We get this this crap and nothing else. We'd be better off getting nothing at all and a snap aggro spell later than this "fix" now.

Elanjar

07-30-2008, 06:46 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I agree that this abilty will not take you from 0 to tank, but it is better than what we currently have.</blockquote>No, because this will be the replacement for a real fix. Aerilak wanted to test how cheap he can buy us und obviously it is very cheap. He said that this will be snap aggro, it is not, but if people are buying it he won't give us a real snap aggro. We get this this crap and nothing else. We'd be better off getting nothing at all and a snap aggro spell later than this "fix" now.</blockquote>This thread was intended to be constructive. Talkin down dev's is not helping get us "fixed". If you don't have something constructive to say/suggest then dont say anything.

Bremer

07-30-2008, 07:56 PM

Well, this is the reason why I am absolutely against this change. What I would instead I allready posted at the beginning of the thread.

Endorplasmic

07-30-2008, 08:37 PM

<cite>Judist wrote:</cite><blockquote>Odin's FrenzyDuration 6 secondsCasting .25 secondsRecast 2 minutes 30 secondsOn a successful melee attack this will cast Enraging Frenzy on target of attack.-Increases threat to target by 500-Increases threat priority of target by 3 positions I counterbalanced this against reinforcement as best as I could. You'd have slightly less than half the time of a reinforcement, but each strike is 3x more powerful. It should provide just enough positional increases to go from absolute 0 to 24 on a single target within 6 seconds, tho CA spam would make it much quicker.Due to the duration and mechanics of +positions per strike, its also very well suited for "gathering" adds. If you miss a few mobs initially (when combining Frenzy with an AoE) you will have time to send out another AoE (or continue using natural AE autos) to gather what mobs are still loose.Downfall would be having to click off your mythical before its use (if your an MT) if you dont want adds sticking to you. Also 6 seconds can pass quickly so you have less time for error.</blockquote>I have no clue where the name came from, but this is a really nice idea, and it's not OP. A 6 second blast to hit the top is really fantastic. Mix that with set bonuses and AA to bring the recast down and that's a sweet spell. As long as it worked on the current target and not everything you hit. (ie. NON AE)

Zhonata

07-30-2008, 10:21 PM

<cite>Endorplasmic wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Judist wrote:</cite><blockquote>Odin's FrenzyDuration 6 secondsCasting .25 secondsRecast 2 minutes 30 secondsOn a successful melee attack this will cast Enraging Frenzy on target of attack.-Increases threat to target by 500-Increases threat priority of target by 3 positionsI counterbalanced this against reinforcement as best as I could. You'd have slightly less than half the time of a reinforcement, but each strike is 3x more powerful. It should provide just enough positional increases to go from absolute 0 to 24 on a single target within 6 seconds, tho CA spam would make it much quicker.Due to the duration and mechanics of +positions per strike, its also very well suited for "gathering" adds. If you miss a few mobs initially (when combining Frenzy with an AoE) you will have time to send out another AoE (or continue using natural AE autos) to gather what mobs are still loose.Downfall would be having to click off your mythical before its use (if your an MT) if you dont want adds sticking to you. Also 6 seconds can pass quickly so you have less time for error.</blockquote>I have no clue where the name came from, but this is a really nice idea, and it's not OP. A 6 second blast to hit the top is really fantastic. Mix that with set bonuses and AA to bring the recast down and that's a sweet spell. As long as it worked on the current target and not everything you hit. (ie. NON AE)</blockquote>/signed

Elanjar

07-31-2008, 03:27 PM

<cite>Endorplasmic wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Judist wrote:</cite><blockquote>Odin's FrenzyDuration 6 secondsCasting .25 secondsRecast 2 minutes 30 secondsOn a successful melee attack this will cast Enraging Frenzy on target of attack.-Increases threat to target by 500-Increases threat priority of target by 3 positions I counterbalanced this against reinforcement as best as I could. You'd have slightly less than half the time of a reinforcement, but each strike is 3x more powerful. It should provide just enough positional increases to go from absolute 0 to 24 on a single target within 6 seconds, tho CA spam would make it much quicker.Due to the duration and mechanics of +positions per strike, its also very well suited for "gathering" adds. If you miss a few mobs initially (when combining Frenzy with an AoE) you will have time to send out another AoE (or continue using natural AE autos) to gather what mobs are still loose.Downfall would be having to click off your mythical before its use (if your an MT) if you dont want adds sticking to you. Also 6 seconds can pass quickly so you have less time for error.</blockquote>I have no clue where the name came from, but this is a really nice idea, and it's not OP. A 6 second blast to hit the top is really fantastic. Mix that with set bonuses and AA to bring the recast down and that's a sweet spell. As long as it worked on the current target and not everything you hit. (ie. NON AE)</blockquote>/agree(new name though. maybe.... Hateful Tempest and casts storm of hate)(on second thought maybe Insulting Tempest would sound better or we could just go with IN YOUR FACE)

Judist

07-31-2008, 04:27 PM

I used "Odin's Frenzy" as Odin is the Norse/Germanic diety of war, fury, death, ect. SoE wont use any name with actual religious refrences, so a new one would hafta be picked for sure.

Nembutal

08-01-2008, 10:21 AM

Been sick... sorry for not dropping in my two cents earlier.Here are my opinions.1.) Thanks SOE for giving us positional hate.2.) SOE... positional hate is a problem with our class and not really just our mythical... that leaves non-mythical zerkers broken... and me broken in the next expansion if I have to give up my mythical. I would have preferred this to be a fix on my class.3.) Positional hate on an AE is cool because it solidifies us as an AoE tank.. however in a crowded area it makes us useless... I can't use any AE hardly at all in RE2 for instance.... and RE2 is where I have been having issues with hate because I can't 3 box in there so my dirge I usually tow around isn't with me.4.) I understand that it was put on insolance (aka insolent gibe to many of us) because of the re-use timer and the fact it was an existing taunt... and we are considered AE tanks... it was the easy fix and seemed logical. but it still doesn't account for the fact I can't hit that ability in quite a few areas in quite a few dungeons or raids.5.) If we are to be an AoE tank... which I am pretty sure is the path SOE is bent on... I would prefer the Positional aggro be moved to an encounter AE... unfortunately we don't have any on a long enough timer to justify a +5 position move... and a +1 position move doesn't really qualigy as a "OMG HIT IT NOW" ability... rescue doesn't do squat for me... so the same ability on another button would be just as useless. This makes me lean towards a new ability.. a beefed up encounter rescue... like a 10 min recycle green encounter icon with +3 positions and +2000 hate.6.) The casting time on open wounds does not really make me want this as our positional hate ability... it takes too long to cast... and when I do use it I use it PRIOR to shooting my bow to get the mob... a positional hate button should be near insta-cast. A long casting time positional hate means by the time you hit the button the mob is out of range killing all the mages... you get there and hit the button again but all the mages are dead and now it's running to the scouts... and out of range again. It would bring use back to this CA I agree but it is not the ideal pick.7.) Another cool solution to this would be rather than going the path of the AoE... the path of the "knock down" I am not sure how many knock downs other classes have... but I have 3... my circular AE, my shield bash, and my ogre ability. If I was to have a short duration epic useable stun with a +5 hate modifier on a 10 or 15 minute timer... I would be very very happy. Here is why... when I get aggro... I need time for the healers to realize what has happened... plus I would love the time to pop adrenaline... so even a 1 second stun... would buy me A LOT of survivability. Since I think knock downs is part of what a zerker is to ME... I feel it keeps the flavor to the class just as much as an AoE does. Since SOE feels that Guards will always be the best tank... I feel that giving time for the healers to adjust to healing us after we hit our positional taunt (via a knock down) is completely within reason. BUT IT HAS TO BE USEABLE ON EPICS.8.) Positional aggro via AA tree is not something I really want to see... although it's better than positional aggro on mythical... gut roar is useless... so I agree that's a good pick if it was to be done... BUT... should someone without max AA really be forced to go down a particular line to make themselves viable? I personally don't think so... the tree is supposed to be balanced (although it's not) and adding a positional aggro ability to the tree suddenly makes that line MANDATORY... which IMHO breaks the intent of the system. 9.) Another issue not related to positional hate I would like to bring up is "tank support" I would like shield bash to do more than just a graphical knock down on epics... if the Guardian says "KEEP ME UP! HELP" I would love to just knock the mob down... buy him say 1/2 of a second via a stun like it does on heroics... even if it gives immunity to epics for 5 minutes to my next shield bash (can't interfer with positional aggro knock down from #7 ) This would make me feel more like I am tank support and less like I am DPS... but at the same time it doesn't really hurt our DPS so the DPS zerks can't cry about it.10.) We still didn't get a bump to survivability like guards did on thier mythical... I think the positional hate should be moved to our standard CA's as other tanks got thiers... and that our survivability should be added to our mythical like guards got thiers. This way no matter how deep into charector progression a guard and zerk are.. if they are at the same point... they are closer to equals.Anyway... I want to stress point #1 again... thanks SOE for at least trying... and it's certainly better than nothing... but if you read this post carefully I am sure you will understand where I am coming from. I am still existed about the change but just think it was not thought out as well as a veteran zerker would have done.Thanks for finally listening, Skoshi

LygerT

08-04-2008, 05:02 AM

now has anyone changed their opinion after using the mythical vs posting before the change went live? just want to make sure i'm not getting mixed results.

Bremer

08-04-2008, 07:55 AM

No, I can hardly think of any situation where this has helped me and yesterday it almost killed me when I tried picking up the add at Druushk after the fear and got aggro from Druushk, although I was pretty far away from him. Works just as I expected

Zhonata

08-04-2008, 08:39 AM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I can hardly think of any situation where this has helped me and yesterday it almost killed me when I tried picking up the add at Druushk after the fear and got aggro from Druushk, although I was pretty far away from him.Works just as I expected</blockquote>LOL./IgnoreI for 1 am loving the change GREAT JOB DEV'S. I have purposly been trying to gank aggro and have yet to pull aggro off the MT on either Nexona or Druusk while DPSing the adds and Guess What NO DICE. OF course on Druushk and Nexona I dont dps the MT MOB as Druushk is a Ranged fight and Nexona can only have a set amount of DPS on her at any given time. If you are are pulling aggro On Druushk and you are OT/DPS then you need to fire your DPS and if your MT you shouldnt be trying picking up adds in the first place. Nexona I am in the OT grp and I am on Shiny Adds and Drake duty so if you gank aggro on her then again FIRE your dps cause they suck. Before you says anything else I parse in the top 5 of my raid force on the rest of the melee encounter in VP and yes still only manage to pull aggro when I want to using this abilty.The addition of hate postion has been a god send for me and I have nothing but praise for it. The only time I have found myself in trouble was using it in RE2 and pulling 2 rooms omw to Gaser, but my healers rock and we just mowed through them. This is one of the best things to happen to the Zerker since the addition of Open Wounds back in DOF. IMO It is by far one of the Best Hate postion tools in this game. Even using Reinforcement after Dieing our Guardian has had trouble grabing aggro off me because of Insolence's Proc and our class massive ability to maintain aggro on a mob, I can sit there and just Auto Attack the mob and watch aggro ping back and forth between us for several secounds before it stablizes.I still believe we need to have a standard hate postion tool on a longer recast perhaps. While this abilty works great for AOE aggro control and gaining aggro while DPS'ing if the MT goes down and we have recently died or just came into the fight it simply isnt enough to assure snap aggro 100% of the time. I personally would like to see another Standard Snap aggro abilty or in this case I would settle for an AA line ability that Converts Rescue into a 12+ postion Snap aggro ability on its current timer. With Insolence how it is I currently only have to use rescue when i have recently Died to try to climb the ladder a little bit quicker and making it our Zero To hero abilty would work perfectly in my book.This Abilty is Working EXACTLY how I predict it would. I guess some people need to read the Berserker Operational Manual. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Zhonata

08-04-2008, 09:02 AM

PS.Aeralik Is there anyways we can get Blood Regeneration to grey out when active just like the rest of our maintained Buffs and can we also get that cool Green text on the +5 hate postions for Insolence to make it easier to admire.Please and Thank You.

Bremer

08-04-2008, 09:22 AM

You sound as if the Mythical granted you Insolence and you didn't had it before.

Bremer

08-04-2008, 12:51 PM

<cite>Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><cite></cite><blockquote>I for 1 am loving the change GREAT JOB DEV'S. I have purposly been trying to gank aggro and have yet to pull aggro off the MT on either Nexona or Druusk while DPSing the adds and Guess What NO DICE. OF course on Druushk and Nexona I dont dps the MT MOB as Druushk is a Ranged fight and Nexona can only have a set amount of DPS on her at any given time. If you are are pulling aggro On Druushk and you are OT/DPS then you need to fire your DPS and if your MT you shouldnt be trying picking up adds in the first place. Nexona I am in the OT grp and I am on Shiny Adds and Drake duty so if you gank aggro on her then again FIRE your dps cause they suck. Before you says anything else I parse in the top 5 of my raid force on the rest of the melee encounter in VP and yes still only manage to pull aggro when I want to using this abilty.The addition of hate postion has been a god send for me and I have nothing but praise for it. The only time I have found myself in trouble was using it in RE2 and pulling 2 rooms omw to Gaser, but my healers rock and we just mowed through them. This is one of the best things to happen to the Zerker since the addition of Open Wounds back in DOF. IMO It is by far one of the Best Hate postion tools in this game. Even using Reinforcement after Dieing our Guardian has had trouble grabing aggro off me because of Insolence's Proc and our class massive ability to maintain aggro on a mob, I can sit there and just Auto Attack the mob and watch aggro ping back and forth between us for several secounds before it stablizes.I still believe we need to have a standard hate postion tool on a longer recast perhaps. While this abilty works great for AOE aggro control and gaining aggro while DPS'ing if the MT goes down and we have recently died or just came into the fight it simply isnt enough to assure snap aggro 100% of the time. I personally would like to see another Standard Snap aggro abilty or in this case I would settle for an AA line ability that Converts Rescue into a 12+ postion Snap aggro ability on its current timer. With Insolence how it is I currently only have to use rescue when i have recently Died to try to climb the ladder a little bit quicker and making it our Zero To hero abilty would work perfectly in my book.This Abilty is Working EXACTLY how I predict it would. I guess some people need to read the Berserker Operational Manual. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Just for fun I'll sum up your arguments:You say that our "snap aggro" is great, because you couldn't snap aggro with it when trying, that it is great because there is a proc on Insolence that was there before and because you can pull rooms with it, what you also could before.Very good arguments, but with the learn2play argument you convinced everyone how great this effect is.

Zhonata

08-04-2008, 12:56 PM

The Mythical Change makes Insolence fullfill its function more efficently. End of Story.

Zhonata

08-04-2008, 01:22 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><cite></cite><blockquote>I for 1 am loving the change GREAT JOB DEV'S. I have purposly been trying to gank aggro and have yet to pull aggro off the MT on either Nexona or Druusk while DPSing the adds and Guess What NO DICE. OF course on Druushk and Nexona I dont dps the MT MOB as Druushk is a Ranged fight and Nexona can only have a set amount of DPS on her at any given time. If you are are pulling aggro On Druushk and you are OT/DPS then you need to fire your DPS and if your MT you shouldnt be trying picking up adds in the first place. Nexona I am in the OT grp and I am on Shiny Adds and Drake duty so if you gank aggro on her then again FIRE your dps cause they suck. Before you says anything else I parse in the top 5 of my raid force on the rest of the melee encounter in VP and yes still only manage to pull aggro when I want to using this abilty.The addition of hate postion has been a god send for me and I have nothing but praise for it. The only time I have found myself in trouble was using it in RE2 and pulling 2 rooms omw to Gaser, but my healers rock and we just mowed through them. This is one of the best things to happen to the Zerker since the addition of Open Wounds back in DOF. IMO It is by far one of the Best Hate postion tools in this game. Even using Reinforcement after Dieing our Guardian has had trouble grabing aggro off me because of Insolence's Proc and our class massive ability to maintain aggro on a mob, I can sit there and just Auto Attack the mob and watch aggro ping back and forth between us for several secounds before it stablizes.I still believe we need to have a standard hate postion tool on a longer recast perhaps. While this abilty works great for AOE aggro control and gaining aggro while DPS'ing if the MT goes down and we have recently died or just came into the fight it simply isnt enough to assure snap aggro 100% of the time. I personally would like to see another Standard Snap aggro abilty or in this case I would settle for an AA line ability that Converts Rescue into a 12+ postion Snap aggro ability on its current timer. With Insolence how it is I currently only have to use rescue when i have recently Died to try to climb the ladder a little bit quicker and making it our Zero To hero abilty would work perfectly in my book.This Abilty is Working EXACTLY how I predict it would. I guess some people need to read the Berserker Operational Manual. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Just for fun I'll sum up your arguments:You say that our "snap aggro" is great, because you couldn't snap aggro with it when trying, that it is great because there is a proc on Insolence that was there before and because you can pull rooms with it, what you also could before.Very good arguments, but with the learn2play argument you convinced everyone how great this effect is.</blockquote>Just for fun I'll Highlight the part you clearly decided to leave out in your summarization. At no point did I say our snap aggro was GREAT, in fact I commented saying we needed something more..... but I can live with what we have im not greedy.The point of this thread is to discuss the Change to Insolence the purpose of RE2 was to show an instance where Insolence has always been an issue and you missed the point because that was the point... DOH ! Just like the point of Trying to pull aggro on these mobs you are saying make Insolence Situational say that you are either doing something silly or wrong or both. It is very clear that if you are DPS'ing the MT mob and use Insolence then you are going to gank aggro, Thanks God thats the point, but if you are not DPS'ing the MT mob the hate increase in a raid should not be enough to snatch aggro.The purpose of this thread is to discuss the Mythical Change. Not to discuss the need for a +24 hate postion taunt. If you have a problem with our over all snap aggro, again like I said we needs 0-hero snapp aggro, then make a new thread.

Endorplasmic

08-05-2008, 10:57 AM

Alright I've had time to hit every zone and some avatars with the change.In short the bad FAR FAR FAR outweighs the good.Good things were Avatar of Storms picking up the insane amount of adds and in VP when the MT got booted off the top bridge with the drakes on the way to Ekron (I hit Insolence as he was below the bridge and pulled the mobs through the bottom of the bridge).Sadly, that's it...This change doesn't help snap agro in the least. +5 hate is NOTHING when the MT wipes on a mob double attacking on pull and it needs to be picked up. (I think I had one ray of hope once where I had insolence and rescue up and yah, I wasn't the top of the hate list after +8 in a 24 person raid... go figure)It's garbage on avatars where the adds are close to the name (War for example).Where we fight Byzola is suicide having it on the hotbar.Basically it works when you don't want it to and doesn't when you do. IMO this change was a bust and something else needs to be done in order for us to get to the top of the hate list like every other fighter class has.

Bremer

08-05-2008, 11:24 AM

<cite>Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Just for fun I'll Highlight the part you clearly decided to leave out in your summarization. At no point did I say our snap aggro was GREAT, in fact I commented saying we needed something more..... but I can live with what we have im not greedy.The point of this thread is to discuss the Change to Insolence the purpose of RE2 was to show an instance where Insolence has always been an issue and you missed the point because that was the point... DOH ! Just like the point of Trying to pull aggro on these mobs you are saying make Insolence Situational say that you are either doing something silly or wrong or both. It is very clear that if you are DPS'ing the MT mob and use Insolence then you are going to gank aggro, Thanks God thats the point, but if you are not DPS'ing the MT mob the hate increase in a raid should not be enough to snatch aggro.The purpose of this thread is to discuss the Mythical Change. Not to discuss the need for a +24 hate postion taunt. If you have a problem with our over all snap aggro, again like I said we needs 0-hero snapp aggro, then make a new thread.</blockquote>Aeralik: "...should give berserkers a form of snap aggro they were lacking compared to the other classes"This >>IS<< our snap aggro, you won't get something on top of it. By agreeing to this change you agree that you don't want snap aggro for our class and then you tell people to l2p and read?

Zhonata

08-05-2008, 12:46 PM

<cite>Endorplasmic wrote:</cite><blockquote>Alright I've had time to hit every zone and some avatars with the change.In short the bad FAR FAR FAR outweighs the good.Good things were Avatar of Storms picking up the insane amount of adds and in VP when the MT got booted off the top bridge with the drakes on the way to Ekron (I hit Insolence as he was below the bridge and pulled the mobs through the bottom of the bridge).Sadly, that's it...This change doesn't help snap agro in the least. +5 hate is NOTHING when the MT wipes on a mob double attacking on pull and it needs to be picked up. (I think I had one ray of hope once where I had insolence and rescue up and yah, I wasn't the top of the hate list after +8 in a 24 person raid... go figure)It's garbage on avatars where the adds are close to the name (War for example).Where we fight Byzola is suicide having it on the hotbar.Basically it works when you don't want it to and doesn't when you do. IMO this change was a bust and something else needs to be done in order for us to get to the top of the hate list like every other fighter class has.</blockquote>Don't know about avatars, but again I wouldnt accept this has our only snap aggro ability, but in the short term it better than nothing.Bremer-Aeralik: "...should give berserkers a form of snap aggro they were lacking compared to the other classes"All that says to me is this is a short term fix for our lack of snap aggro. No where in that sentence does it say "This is all your get". Im going to try and be optimistic, as I already said I dont want our class to be fixed via a weapon. No matter the proc or ability, I dont care no matter how much I like the new addition, something else is needed, like what I suggest with rescue, and doesnt need to be on our mythical it needs to be an abilty change. Like In my previous post all this change does is make Insolence more efficent. More often than not all I have needed is Insolence to grab aggro when the MT goes down, but there are instances where +5 simply isnt enought and that is why I would prefer to just see our rescue be beefed up via AA line.AS for the l2p comment your suggest instances where you were pulling aggro off the mt using the abilty are silly, you obviously are doing something wrong if you are pulling aggro on a range fight, Druusk. As for Nexona I dont know how you run the fight, but we have a set grp of people who DPS Nexona and the OT isnt one of them, so again you are obviously doing something wrong if you are pulling aggro on Nexona and not DPS'ing her.My problem isnt with people saying that this ability doesnt suffice as our only means of extra snap aggro it is when people say how it is now situational. I agree that if this is the only snap aggro abilty we get then No Dice.

Bremer

08-07-2008, 10:08 AM

You said yourself you pulled mobs in Runny without wanting, so either you admit that by your own definitions you can't play the class and should be ignored or you agree that Insolence can be unpredictable and deadly in combination with the broken world geometry of EQ2 and the giant hit boxes raid mobs can have and that even more with +hate position on the spell. And his post is absolutely clear. This is not a short time fix, this is not a free addition, this 5 hate positions on an open AE in game with broken geometry are supposed to be the Beserker equivalent to Reinforcment, Holy Ground or Peel. So again, by agreeing to this change you agree to Beserkers being the only class without snap aggro. Of course you can also read the post full of wishful thinking and saying that he doesn't exclude that Adrenaline will be fixed, that Beserker DPS will be doubled, that the Mythical will get an defensive effect, that we will get 3 additional snap aggros and a free respec to Guardian and so this will happen for sure. But if you think so you also still believe in Santa Claus. He didn't say we will get our snap aggro later, he said this is the snap aggro.

Obadiah

08-07-2008, 10:34 PM

Hey, come on. Santa promised me he was going to make them fix Adrenaline.His post really says nothing about this being "it". Ever. Since all fighters are being revamped, I think it's safe to say more changes are incoming down the road.

Zhonata

08-08-2008, 02:35 AM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>You said yourself you pulled mobs in Runny without wanting, so either you admit that by your own definitions you can't play the class and should be ignored or you agree that Insolence can be unpredictable and deadly in combination with the broken world geometry of EQ2 and the giant hit boxes raid mobs can have and that even more with +hate position on the spell.And his post is absolutely clear. This is not a short time fix, this is not a free addition, this 5 hate positions on an open AE in game with broken geometry are supposed to be the Beserker equivalent to Reinforcment, Holy Ground or Peel. So again, by agreeing to this change you agree to Beserkers being the only class without snap aggro.Of course you can also read the post full of wishful thinking and saying that he doesn't exclude that Adrenaline will be fixed, that Beserker DPS will be doubled, that the Mythical will get an defensive effect, that we will get 3 additional snap aggros and a free respec to Guardian and so this will happen for sure. But if you think so you also still believe in Santa Claus. He didn't say we will get our snap aggro later, he said this is the snap aggro.</blockquote>Actually there is a diffrence between pulling mobs through a wall, which insolence line has always done, and pulling Nexona or Drushk off of the MT while trying to grab adds as an OT. The Addition of +5 hate postion changes NOTHING with the RE situation, NOTHING. Unless you are dpsing the MT mob and use insolence or use it right at the start of the fight then you WILL NOT pull aggro *Period*. If you are DPSing Nexona or Drushk Then DUH !!! you will pull aggro. If you continue to admit that you pull aggro off the MT while Off tanking During these fight then you cleary do not know how to play the class or you know how to play the class and are being silly with the way you play it and thus should be ignored. Granted if you are DPSing Drushk then you are probably killing your grp or if you are DPSing Nexona you are probably triggering the Over Damage AOE. Bottum line in Neither one of these fight should you be DPSing the MT mob and OT at the same time and if you are doing both your DPS should be leaving you in the middle of the hate ladder thus Insolence will not pull the MT mob. So Finally there is only 2 situation where Insolence will pull a mob off the MT and Both would be a user-head-space and timing issue.As for his post it is not clear. It does not say that at all. All it says is "Here" This is an abilty that is "Some" form of snap aggro. It does not say this is all you get. It does not say this is your replacement for Reinfrocement/Peel. You ARE over reacting to that information. Now if Aerilik Would come in here and say," This is your Replacement for Reinforcement", I would tell him to go back to the drawing board, but until then Im going to happy with the addition on the Mythical and hope for a better more efficent snap aggro "abilty" in the fall/winter.Now I have said my Peace so Im done in this thread, best of luck.