Shadowknight Issues / Suggestions [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

DMIstar

07-23-2008, 09:51 PM

ok ...Issue #1: Gear ItemizationSub Catagory: Basic Stats Progression.. Problem: No Direction... Only Direction Seen is in Class VP set with major focus on STR/STA/INT... Mid Tier/Group suits slated to us is not crafted to us but as a "all around use" suits that hurting this class.Cause: Major Varience in SK character builds across the boards.. Also Forces the Class to have 2 designed suits, One for Tanking one For Offensive, what once was a extra thing, has now become the bane of this class operateing succesfully.. With this there is a major gap between us and classes in abilities of tanking or DPS.Solutions: Get rid of "Crusader Gear" Start tailoring Items for STR/STA/INT That are PLATE. and work with the ideal focus of the VP class set.. across all lvls of game play.. Especially Mid tier and Group suits.. AS well as Off Gear Belts/earrings/rings etc.. Sub Catagory: Defense statsProblem: Parry/Repostle/Block/Shield Block... Etc. are on gear focused for warriors instead of SK's, Even items that are tailored towards SK's Lack these stats. AKA Shadowknight Epic.Cause: Items like the Shield of the green Dragon, take preccedense over other better items. further disparity in tanking upkeep.Solution: More Tailored Gear towards some of these stats. to begin with.. that are the along the lines of SK's Stat Itemization plan.. Sub Catagory: To Many Stats!!Problem: Mellee crit, DA, Spell Crit, Spell Haste, Melee AE, DPS, Defense, Parry, Repostile, Block, Shield Block, Haste, Defense, Deflection.. Etc.. To many stats, no real value. and we use em all.. Tailor SK's to atleast have an idea where to goto.Cause: Confuseing gear schemes, Most of these items are on gear that are far from SK's to use ... Spell Crit actually being on Plate maybe ?Solution: Post by a dev on the true direction of the SK's path would straighten this bit out in the least .. Sub Catagory: 2 handersProblem: 1hander/Shield is delving on being the clearly choice in both DPS and Tanking.. 2 handers should be leading the way in the DPS field and 1hander should be better off for us on tanking situations.. But 2 handers are under itemized for dmg and stats.Cause: Who realy needs to use 2 handers ? fun type thing ?Solution: 2 hander adjustments. or better vision in upcomeing ones made. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Issue #2: SpellsSub catagory: Death MarchProblem: Spell Was later engineered as a Hate Generation Tool, For AoE/single Encounters.. Problem now since its not upgraded the hate generation tool end of this is become more and more uneffective.. A few more lvl sets and the aggro generation will be what it was initially.. None ... Cause: Harder to maintain aggro in group/raiding experiences / Flip side this can start to be casted more often without fear of ripping aggro.. Spaming of this spell can soon be comensed again.Solution: Upgrade .. even minor would help. Sub Catagory: Harm TouchProblem: Damage ratio on this is hugely lacking... Its now called death touch, but it couldnt kill a flee.. Even EQ found a solution to this problem. Cause: Under utilized spell.. realy with no value in todays game at its current dmg.Solution: Revamp of the spell... Up damage rate.. Maybe go with a dot forumula like EQ has now, so its not like a one hit wonder.. but still has the numbers to be highly effective. Sub Catagory: DoT Taunt SystemProblem: This is a failed project and has been brought up since this class began, and has been a continueing Issue.Cause: Due to our DoT taunts, It has lead us to be more heavily reliant on Rescue, Single Target taunt spells: AKA Speacity ones from Splitpaw and the such.. and goes as far as needing to use Death March and HT, just to maintian a decent Taunt rate... We have DPSers that are hitting for Pure Singal hit numbers, and we can't match that with a DoT thats way under the DPSers taunt rate... Solution: Kill the DoT system, make specific numbers.. Maybe throw the DoT idea on the back burner later in the years to be worked on, but for now get rid of it. Sub Catagory: Spell Damage Rates Dots and DD'sProblems: We are an offensive class, yet While tanking, our DPS severaly lacks compared to guards and other classes that we are supposed to be somewhat challengeing or being above.. Our Highest DoT is Contagion, none others come even close, we are still hitting in the 100s where others are at 1k+Cause: Along with our Tuants being poor, our low DPS is showing lack of Single Target Aggro Gains, Hence needing to relay on specialty hate, rather then our DPS and standard taunts to get anything done. Seriously If we are easier for the mob to kill due to lack of defense over guards, shouldnt we be excelling in aggro management and DPS ? Solution: Proper Stat Itemized gaer, will greatly help our numbers and level out the huge variances that we have going. Pluse will bridge a path to move forward in regulating our DPS output to where it supposed to be. Sub Catagory: LifetapsProblems: Low Life Gain rates. to challange Avoidence loss. We are being hit in the 1ks and not even both our lifetaps are takeing away one solitary hit... Hence Avoidence is much greater the lifetap focusing.. But yet we suffer on Each AGI stat and our VP gear is not even set for it.... Cause: Tanking issues, and upkeep issues in comparing with other classes.Solution: after gear is itemized and INT is in control, bring lifetaps up to a rate where we are truly not needing to focus on AGI and avoidence, but are actually a tank that steals life, rather then pricks it.-----------------------------------------------------Issue #3: Alternate Advancement:< more to come > this is barely anything...

slippery

07-24-2008, 12:07 AM

Spells and Abilities<ol><li> On mobs that debuff us they debuff Bloodletter first. Being a special ability and a death protect that has a decent enough recast and cannot be cast in combat this seems silly. Bloodletter should be one of the last things that gets dispelled off of a Shadowknight. It should also be castable while running like pretty much all the rest of our buffs.</li><li>Our defensive stance is just horrible. We lose a ton of dps switching from Offensive to Defensive, and we gain almost nothing from doing so. The Wisdom stat bonus needs to be dropped and changed into something useful. At the least the stat should be changed into something like Agility where we might at least gain some avoidance. At the most it should be 10% Parry.</li><li>Intercede needs a range increase. When half the mobs in RoK you are 15 meters away from the tank just to get behind the mob it takes too long a run for you to be able to effectively intercede anything.</li><li>Mana Siege. The amount of power this returns is absolutely abysmal. There are two options for this that I would consider. The first would be to make it a 20 second temp buff on a 5 minute timer, on any successful attack it would return say 100-150 power. The second option would be to basically make it a zero con slot self buff that is basically equivalent to a mental breach poison. 5 times a min for about 300 power.</li><li>Anguish has a wisdom debuff. I think the thought process behind Wisdom debuffs is to make it easier to land spells, however in actual application I'm not sure how true this works out to be. It would be nice if there was a way to change this so that it actually increases the chance to land spells on the target by a certain amount (say 25%). </li><li>Death March is a little wonky at times. If you cast it and get hit with a control effect and then it finishes casting On The March does not cast. So basically the cast could be completely wasted. On The March still needs to cast if you have a stun, stiffle, or fear on you when you finish casting.</li></ol>Itemization<ol><li>My largest general itemization issue is stats used on gear for us. I'd like to see more focus on having 4 stats, Str, Sta, Agi, Int. Also, we need spell and melee stuff, that means instead of just +ca or +spell we need both. We also need both spell and melee crit. Some of this has admittedly started to get better lately, however I continue to see Wis instead of Int on crusader gear and it drives me mad.</li><li>Mythical - The Seething Hatred effect on our Epic needs to be changed. As a hate increasing ability this is basically worthless. The damage proc either needs to be quite a bit higher or it needs to be effected by int/base damage. Also we need at least +10 parry and it would be nice to either get some damage reduction or +5 block chance (I'd even settle for 10% shield effectiveness). I've seen a lot of SK's ask for Spell Double Attack. PLEASE GOD DO NOT give us spell double attack. Coming from playing a Wizard who knows exactly how the spell double attack works, it would suck for an SK. With the current coding where it only doubles the first tick of dots, and the double is not effected by spell damage, spell double would do like nothing. </li><li>Procs on Crusader items. This is something that has been getting better recently too, but Crusader items should proc on ANY successful attack, not just a successful attack.</li><li>Greaves of the Apathetic have a focus effect for Unholy Arms. This is a very nice self buff for us and the effect should be a really good one, however since procs cap at twice their base proc chance the pants effectively do not stack with our AA ability that increases the proc chance and 5% basically goes to waste. I would like to see the AA that increases the proc chance effectively increase the base proc chance so that the cap of the proc would be double what it is after the AA (basically it would cap at 26% chance to proc instead of 16% if you had 5 AA's in it).</li><li>Spell and CA damage. We get way too much of it. We really don't take advantage of it much past a couple hundred, which we get with ease. I would by far rather see more melee/spell crit and melee double attack.</li></ol>Achievements<ol><li> Siphon Hate should not cost a concentration slot. I cannot think of any other ability gained from an AA that costs concentration (blessings, mana cure, luck of the dirge, ancestry, harmonization, resonance, etc...). In the past it has not been an issue because there was no other use for that spare concentration slot, however with the advent of gear that has buffs that cost concentration it now is. Getting this gear requires us to drop a buff to be able to use that effect. I would like to see Siphon Hate consistent with all other AA abilities and not use concentration so that we can take full advantage of gear like this now and in the future. It should also be castable while running like the rest of our buffs.</li><li>Agility line finisher is just horrible. By horrible I mean I can't believe it ever made it live. This ability is on par with any standard 2nd point aa attack. It is so bad you don't even consider taking it. The ability before the last is pretty horrible also. Make it a chance to be immune to either stun or stiffle and put it in the wis line, that way wis line is basically for control effects. As for what to do with the last two abilities in the agi line at that point? Double attack for the final ability. For the one before that, I'm going to go out on a limb and say we aren't going to get any uncontested avoidance, so I'm going to ask for shield effectiveness.</li></ol>

Xersu

07-24-2008, 03:53 PM

Before moving into the negative, I thought I would start with what I DO like about the shadowknight that isn't obvious to the class (such as life taps etc):1) Melee attacks are fast2) Being able to debuff/buff while moving3) Best self Anti-death in the game (however has issues)4) Our taunt is our disease debuffSkill issues:Currently there are a lot of useless, or weak spells in our lines. The following spells are rated in terms of usefulness in their current form.Dark Caress: Even at master 1, this spell is absolutely worthless. With 47 taunt and 150 damage every time we are hit, this spell does not help us much at all. Would much rather have a way to increase damage considering how it takes 1 concentration slot. If this had Stoneskin chance, or a chance at damage reflection I would be much happier.Donation of Armament: While this can be turned into Siphon Arament, the 5 AA points are better spent elsewhere as the 3-4% mitigation increase in RoK is simply not worth it anymore. Mana Seige: The term "seige" is a complete exaggeration. While we can get our power back and no other tank can currently (as far as I know, without items) the return is hardly worth the AA and the casting time. Please make this a permanent buff like mental breach or triple the return at least.Insinuate: A weak taunt over time that I don't even use. I use the Goading Gesture for 10% at double the taunt, that scales higher than the master 2 version of this spell. Please see taunt issues below in the class mechanic issues.Painful Aura: While nice and quick, the damage is low and is another DoT, extremely ineffective at holding agro. One of the best casting times however.Bloodletter: As mentioned before can be dispelled, and is not castable in combat. Bloodletter should not be able to be dispelled off of the shadowknight. However, I can see leaving the dispellability from other people participating in the group/raid. If I lose agro, and they get dispelled, its clearly my fault.Death Touch: Currently 15 minute recast with no ability to modify it except through items and the STR AA line. The damage is far too low, and the recast is far too high. If the damage were to stay the same, I would ask that the recast be every 2 minutes. Devastation fist hits MUCH harder on a lower timer currently.Reaving: It has been argued that this spell is our defining survivability point. By simply increasing the life tap return on epic and heroic mobs, I agree with the players on this board that it should help a ton. 2.5% for heroic, 5% for epic. Class mechanic issues:Avoidance: Through itemization and poor self buffs shadowknights are dead last in survivability. Our only saving grace is DA once every 10 minutes and switching to defensive stance and praying for heals. We have no stoneskin, only life taps that cannot be modified against raid mobs. While our life taps are fine in groups, they are severely lacking when in raids where a 3-10k hit is easily possible.Focus: While being an AE spell oriented tank, currently we get interrupted FAR TOO OFTEN. I would ask that the "Under 50% health" restriction from our focus be removed and the focus increased dramatically. High Casting Times: This is the result of the previous complaint. We inherently have high casting times that can only be modified by the STR line and death march. Death March becomes completely neccessary to effectively do chains without being interrupted. Also timing auto attacks between spells becomes delayed with Pain Wrath and Tap Arteries. All our spells should at most have a 2 second cast and no more unless noninteruptable. Low Damage: The SK because of focus issues, resistability, and casting times our DPS lacks. Mostly my DPS comes from critting on a 2H weapon, before switching to 1h and shield when tanking and my life is volatile. Low Survability: Honestly I would rather not get the avoidance and stoneskin of a guardian. Let them have their class defining skill. I would rather earn my life back and fight for my survivability. Please make our lifetaps much greater versus heroic and raid mobs. This is not to say our avoidance doesn't suck. Please help us in both departments. If I wanted to make a guardian, I would have. I don't mind playing the SK how I feel it was originally intended which is a lower avoidance, one of the highest DPS tanks, that earns their survivability through stealing attributes and life from their opponent. However raid mobs just crush us alive compared to the guardian class. While I can tank, once I played a guardian, it was just so much easier to stay alive and to hold agro.Low Agro: This is my BIGGEST complaint by far besides DPS, and of course, they are related. The SK has the hardest time holding agro by far compared to ANY of the other tank classes. From what I can tell the ONLY saving grace is Death March and using as many hate transfers possible. No hate transfers in the group means we can't tank.AA issues:Our WIS and AGI lines are severely lacking. I would hope the AGI line becomes a 2H spec with a MYTHICAL that REMOVES THE 2H RESTRICTION for us to tank with a sword and board OR a line that actually gives usefull amounts of DA and attack bonuses with any weapon.The health regen on our wisdom line is competely useless. I would rather see Riposte.Suggestions:I believe the SK class was meant to EARN its agro, its dps, and its survivability. With keeping this in mind I would ask for these changes.1a) If Siphon Hate is going to take 1 concentration slot please change it to the following:Siphon hate diseases the weapons of all group allies. Any spell or combat art used has a 25% chance of proccing Pure Hatred on target. Does 300-1100 disease damage that transfers directly as hate to the shadowknight.Reason: This adds more utility to the SK class, and 3% really is weak considering how easy it is to get to the transfer cap. I would rather have an active way of helping the group do more damage and getting agro. 300-900 damage as a proc per spell can end up adding more agro than just taking 3% of the group.1b) If just leaving it the way it is, simply remove the concentration requirement and is castable while moving.2) Please make reaving give us a higher % when fighting heroic and epic mobs.3) Increasing our damage on all spells and removing the focus restriction4) Change itemization to always include the 4 stats we need STR, AGI, STA, INT when its crusader only. If an item is meant to be more pally or wants to give more WIS then do so. But SKs do not want all that wisdom thats always on the crusader pieces. Make more guardian/zerker loot have int on it. We'll use it we swear.Thanks for reading.

slippery

07-24-2008, 07:12 PM

<cite>Sadly I disagree with most of your post, but there are a few things below I wanted to point out specifically.Xersues wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dark Caress: Even at master 1, this spell is absolutely worthless. With 47 taunt and 150 damage every time we are hit, this spell does not help us much at all. Would much rather have a way to increase damage considering how it takes 1 concentration slot. If this had Stoneskin chance, or a chance at damage reflection I would be much happier.While in raids this may not do much, in groups this can be a decent amount of hate. Free agro against whatever adds may come along as long as you get them first. I also don't even remotely expect this to change, as it is the equivalent of the same type of buff every other fighter class also gets in one form or fashion. At least ours has a damage component unlike most of the other fighters that is just pure taunt.Insinuate: A weak taunt over time that I don't even use. I use the Goading Gesture for 10% at double the taunt, that scales higher than the master 2 version of this spell. Please see taunt issues below in the class mechanic issues.If you aren't using this it is completely your loss. Insinuate M2 does just as much as goading jesture up front, plus it has all the over time stuff. If you are using Goading for the 10% chance at double the taunt you are losing agro. Insinuate is our top hate ability if you don't count death march, death touch, and rescue.Painful Aura: While nice and quick, the damage is low and is another DoT, extremely ineffective at holding agro. One of the best casting times however.This is one of our top dps efficiency spells. (5th actually behind our 2 taunts, shield bash, and shadow coil). Damage/(cast+recovery). That is how you figure out the spike of what is going to generate the most damage for the period of time. As a class Shadowknights pretty much always have something to cast, so this is the way you maximize dps.Avoidance: Through itemization and poor self buffs shadowknights are dead last in survivability. Our only saving grace is DA once every 10 minutes and switching to defensive stance and praying for heals. We have no stoneskin, only life taps that cannot be modified against raid mobs. While our life taps are fine in groups, they are severely lacking when in raids where a 3-10k hit is easily possible.If you choose your gear right you can still do more than fine on avoidance while still being able to do more than enough dps. </blockquote>

Nero

07-24-2008, 07:17 PM

SuggestionsA. DPS(1)Shorten the casting time of spells of crusaders. Same as 0.5 second like combat arts. Make the crusaders' spells special. Or make the crusaders' spells bigger damage appropriate to the long casting time. But the interrupts of the spells are undesirable. Because even one interrupt of a spell decreases DPS of the caster. Or change all the crusaders' spells to combat arts like Guardian.(2)Shorten the recasting time of "Harm Touch", and make the damage of "Harm Touch" bigger drastically. Make DPS of "Harm Touch" at least x5. For example, make the recasting time of "Harm Touch" 3 minutes.B. Hate Control(1)Make the hate gain amount of "Siphon Hate" from 3% to 5%. Make it appropriate to "Amends" of Paladin.(2)Add a new "rise of hate position" spell(like "Rescue", "Reinforcement" of Guardian, and "Holy Ground" of Paladin, etc) to Shadowknight. Make its recasting time quick(for example, 1 minute).(3)Improve "Innoruuk's Caress" for off tank. At least, make the hate gain amount of "Innoruuk's Caress" up to same as "Hold the Aggression" of Guardian.(4)Hate control of Shadowknight in EQ1. Improve Shadowknight's hate control up to Shadowknight's strong hate control of EQ1. In EQ1, Shadowknights were hate control masters. "Voice of Darkness", "Voice of Shadows" and "Voice of Death" in EQ1, etc.C. Defence/Survivability(1)High avoidance(parry, block, and riposte) at least same as Warriors.(2)High hit point.(3)Stoneskin: Stoneskin which Shadowknight can set in motion voluntarily(for example, "Tower of Stone" of Guardian) is very desired.(4)Improve "Reaver". Make the heal amount of "Reaver" from 2% to 5% of Shadowknight's HP. Further, make "Reaver" a new raid-wide buff. And make "Reaver" a normal spell, not Achievement. Instead, wipe out "Unholy Arms" and "Relentless Hunger", and make them other spell. Stoneskin is acceptable.(5)Make the reactive-heal shielding("Life Pact&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> a permanent and passive buff. Make the heal amount of "Life Pact" very large to endure Epic mob's attack.(6)A permanent and passive Stoneskin shielding like the reactive heal shielding. For example, 10% proc stoneskin. Or, at least, a new shielding different from reactive heal shielding is needed. For example, "Shieldskin", "Harmshield", "Steelskin", and "Banshee Aura" of EQ1. Or how about a permanent and passive shielding which halves the damage given by mobs? Like "Adrenaline" of Berserker.Therefore, Shadowknight's passive spells without AA are now Reaver, Reactive Heal Shielding, Stoneskin Shielding, Innoruuk's Caress.(7)"Divine Aura" of AA of STA line is a kind of Stoneskin. But not so useful in raid of T8. Remove the limit of "under 50% of max hit point of a crusader" of "Divine Aura". Increase Shadowknight's hit point. Make the duration of "Divine Aura" longer. At least, 20 seconds(now, it is 10 seconds).D. Buff/Debuff(1)"Death March": Upgrade "Death March". For example, change the duration from 10 seconds to 1 minutes and increase the effect x1.5.(2)Merge "Devouring Mist" and "Drain Might". This will help the reduction of number of spells. Make the duration of the new spell 10 minutes(but the recasting time should be at least 1 minute for constant and short combats like solo and group). This will help the reduction of spell casting frequently for long combat like raid. Increase the amount of drain of STR to x3. Because "Drain Might" is worthless now. Or this new spell may be good if it drains not only STR, but also AGI, STA, WIS, and INT.E. Utility(1)Pet: Make Shadowknight's pet permanent, not temporary. This will allow Shadowknight to pet pull. And Shadowknight's pet needs strong toughness(high hit point and high avoidance) to endure Epic mob's attack. It will be good that there are some spells enhancing SK's pet(for example, "Strengthen Death" of EQ1). This will help the increase of DPS of Shadowknight.F. MISC(1)Major improvement of sub-class AA. For example, does it have any meaning that "Harm Touch", of which recasting time is 15 minutes, have lifetap ability? Who comes up with this Harm Touch lifetap? Did he play Shadowknight? And "Siphon Hate", "Reaver", and "Pools of Blood" should be not Achievement spells, but normal spells under normal circumstances. This will help that these spells are enhanced(for example, Adept III or Master I). Change "Siphon Hate", "Reaver", and "Pools of Blood" to normal spells and make new wonderful Achievement spells to help DPS and defence of Shadowknight.(2)2 handed weapon: 2 handed weapon should have protection, parrying, status-up, resists, proc, and adornment to cover "1H and shield"'s protection, parrying, status-up, resists, proc and adornment. And make a stance of 2 handed weapon for crusaders. This "2H weapon stance" should have no demerit and increase crusaders' attack and defence(for example, "slashing, piercing and so on", double attack, melee crit, aggression, defence(mitigation, parry, block, and riposte), INT and WIS, desease resist and physical resist)(3)Change the increases of recasting speed, recovery speed and casting speed of "Avenging Invigoration"(STR line) from 10% to 50%. Because crusaders have many "spells" which have long casting time and are interrupted frequently. Shadowknight have a few combat arts which have very quick casting time and can hardly be interrupted. This will help the increase of DPS of Shadowknight. If the spells of Shadowknight change to combat arts like A(1), this will be unnecessary.

slippery

07-24-2008, 07:28 PM

Ask for overpowered stuff often? Please be realistic. We aren't going to get stoneskin abilities. Asking for completely unrealistic things that make the class clearly dominate all other classes does not aide in trying to get things fixed, it gets the requests completely ignored.

Kaarim

07-24-2008, 07:55 PM

I agree with slippery.The ideas are awesome and will love to see em! However most of them are really and truly unrealistic and even spins it into more unbalancing to other classes.In all honest Shadowknights are not so bad, and are not so broken as my fellow Dark Knights may portray. We do have issues, just like all classes. We don't need an overhaul like the coercers, just fine tuning, tweaking, removing and adding a few things here and there. For starters our avoidance yeah that's a no brainer and I don't believe it's the class that's the issue it's the entire "tanking", avoidance and mitigation system once that is fixed our situation in this department will be resolved. DPS-I believe would probably help if we had better itemization for crusaders and a review of some of our spells increasing some of their damage like "Death Touch" and "Pain Wrath" I say Pain Wrath because it shouldn't be similar in damage out put to "Tap Arteries". The duration on "Pain Aura" I think should be the full 30seconds rather than 12seconds. (Minor things like this). Death March should be scaled to Tier 8 level.Aggro-I don't think we have an issue, I don't think crusaders have an issue with holding hate. We do have to work to hold hate but it's not impossible. Our single target taunt may need some help but honestly a well played Shadowknight should be able to control and maintain hate. Lifetaps-the heals on lifetaps need a boost specially for OT, or MT Shadowknights. (Yes believe it or not there are OT, and MT Shadowknights.) Not saying it should be equal to paladin heals but should have a look at. Little things like that. I'm not a developer or designer so I can't say how to fix these areas, but as a Shadowknight since launch I can point out some issues we need help in to be up to par with other fighters. I hope a class developer does read this and can see that it's not too much to be asking for, just a fine polish over the class.

Kryptonix

07-24-2008, 10:14 PM

+++Defense+++- AVOIDANCE AVOIDANCE AVOIDANCE!!+++Spells/CAs/AAs+++- We need a boost with our lifetaps, theres no doubt about that. Reaver helps out a bit, but not by much. Maybe adding an effect to Reaver that basically gives our lifetaps a 1:1 ratio would be a good start. I honestly dont even use Reaver even though I am specced for Reaving and have put a point in Reaver. I dont see the difference when I solo or when I group. Having it also use our CAs and not just our spells can help out too.- It would be nice if there was a boost to Mana Sieve/Siege.- Death Touch needs a HUGE boost.- Dark Caress and Enhance Dark Caress, needs a bit of a boost.- Enhance Insinuate should be changed to reduce the tick inbetween ticks or add a hate burst at the end of the duration- Enhance Death March, I would rather have the Death March effect prolonged then have the recast reduced. 10 secs isnt very long. It would help out a lot more in terms of grouping and soloing.+++DPS+++- Our DPS needs a look at. Having better DPS gives us better Hate which can be an issue. Itemization can help fix the DPS issues that we have. - Really all I can think of without over powering us. Plainly saying raise our damage would be too broad and frankly stupid.+++Hate/Agro+++- In terms of grouping I dont have much of a hate problem. Casting my Death March and not becoming an agro magnet is a bit sad, though. Hate over Time is something I got used to, so I dont really mind it. Our hate siphons from our AA trees are nice. Maybe bringing Death March back to what it used to be as an agro tool would be nice.- In terms of raiding I have no idea, I have never raid MTed or OTed.+++Itemization+++- I dont think saying place all 5 stats or as much of the different stats on our equipment is a good way to go. Yes we need all the stats, but come on really? having 4-5 stats on all our items is ridiculous. I would say a focus on the things we really lack would be fine. AGI and INT are what we really lack. Having more diversity in the +CA/Spell/Melee/Heal would help out a lot. Spell crits arent really needed, our AAS take care of that just fine. I would hate to see our pieces of armor with +Melee/Spell damage just have its counterpart added to it. I would rather have more diverse items, so we can choose what we want.

Nero

07-25-2008, 06:45 AM

Just a thought.Can the changes which you say as "realistic" make Shadowknight play main tank perfectly like Guardian(Of course, with Shadowknight's style)?Currently, Guardian is uber.To come near Guardian, isn't a little "overpowered" overhaul, which you say as "unrealistic", needed?Just a thought.Don't get me wrong.

slippery

07-25-2008, 07:23 AM

A Shadowknight can Main Tank everything right now perfectly fine with zero problems.

Nero

07-25-2008, 08:42 AM

<cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>A Shadowknight can Main Tank everything right now perfectly fine with zero problems. </blockquote>So, why do people say that SKs are unwanted and unneeded in T8 raid?Why do only Guardians main tank in raid?

DMIstar

07-25-2008, 10:23 AM

Ok this is seriously Getting off Topic.. The replies are nice, but this is about feedback.. And Especaily lets not be vauge as hell Please... Case in point "A Shadowknight can Main Tank everything right now perfectly fine with zero problems."This is not true.. This is why these threads Completely Exist at this time.. Sure any class Can tank.. Hell Brawlers are Tanking VP with some guilds now.. But guess what there are reasonings to this .. This is not a magical Event.. People Initially Progressed through these tiers with guards and Berserkers for a reason. and its not so much as crunching min and Max situations. They have the gear and ability To scale while progressing. a guard/zerker fully geared with T1-T3 Stuff going into VP, is ready to take on content in there. Its tough yes.. Its supposed to be.. But Gear inside VP is supposed to Make VP easier .. Thats the point of gear progression. An SK in DemonGuard and whatever Jewlry mix they think is good from T1-T3 is still not fully ready for working on VP .. Why, Cause Theres Reasonings why stats are important. and this is why No Guild is going to start of a new expansion with SK's Leading the way on it. Now If we Bench the SK, Work on the content there. Then bring the SK in and Build the class up with Gear that is in VP and Beyond, THen we are more able to contend with tanking in it.. Which is exactly whats happening today. in a Huge scale. Now that we Have Plane of Hate open, its a bit easier to do this for the other tier zones.. and its being done. This is the issue of SK's at this point. Now there is many different causes for this, its just itemizing it down. Anything that needs additional Leverage on a progression line track is broke, once this is fixed, we will see more guilds useing SK's as a starter tool to attempting things that havent been done, until then we will be some extra tool on a thing that has been accomplished already.

Tiberuis

07-25-2008, 11:03 AM

<cite>Darkwarrior@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with slippery.The ideas are awesome and will love to see em! However most of them are really and truly unrealistic and even spins it into more unbalancing to other classes.In all honest Shadowknights are not so bad, and are not so broken as my fellow Dark Knights may portray. We do have issues, just like all classes. We don't need an overhaul like the coercers, just fine tuning, tweaking, removing and adding a few things here and there. For starters our avoidance yeah that's a no brainer and I don't believe it's the class that's the issue it's the entire "tanking", avoidance and mitigation system once that is fixed our situation in this department will be resolved. DPS-I believe would probably help if we had better itemization for crusaders and a review of some of our spells increasing some of their damage like "Death Touch" and "Pain Wrath" I say Pain Wrath because it shouldn't be similar in damage out put to "Tap Arteries". The duration on "Pain Aura" I think should be the full 30seconds rather than 12seconds. (Minor things like this). Death March should be scaled to Tier 8 level.Aggro-I don't think we have an issue, I don't think crusaders have an issue with holding hate. We do have to work to hold hate but it's not impossible. Our single target taunt may need some help but honestly a well played Shadowknight should be able to control and maintain hate. Lifetaps-the heals on lifetaps need a boost specially for OT, or MT Shadowknights. (Yes believe it or not there are OT, and MT Shadowknights.) Not saying it should be equal to paladin heals but should have a look at. Little things like that. I'm not a developer or designer so I can't say how to fix these areas, but as a Shadowknight since launch I can point out some issues we need help in to be up to par with other fighters. I hope a class developer does read this and can see that it's not too much to be asking for, just a fine polish over the class. </blockquote>Your post is for the most part very sensible and makes some important points about our class.It is obvious that Avoidance and Mitigation are both too low for SK's, working with the current tanking system game mechanics. I understand the Dev's are addressing plate tanking mechs as a whole for a future update. Hopefully this addresses the obvious class imbalance. Aeralik recently coming "out of the closet", and admitting that Guardians are overpowered compared to the other plate tank classes is a very positive first step in this process.All of your DPS suggestions are excellent. And implementation of your suggestions is badly needed. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Aggro is currently doable with an SK. I agree. But it is WAY easier to manage Aggro with the 3 other plate tank classes, all of which currently have stronger Aggro management tools. This is undisputable.Lifetap increases? I'm not so sure. Sounds like too much Paladinism (new word of the day! lol). And totally not necessary if SK Avoidance and Mitigation is brought up to par with the other plate tank classes.I always tend to compartmentalize these class issues and suggestions within the context of class balance. It's not about whether or not an SK can "tank anything in the game fine." If we compare the core issues of Avoidance, Mitigation, DPS, and Aggro, SK's are WAY behind the curve. The other plate tanks simply work better in the game right now within the context of these core class issues. No matter which way you look at this, SK's are dead last in plate tank class balance.

Kaarim

07-25-2008, 11:11 AM

<cite>Post deleted was trailing off topic.Future Refrencekeep posts inline with "Issues and Suggestions" for the class.Will send PMs to those with unanswered questions.</cite>

Stuge

07-25-2008, 12:18 PM

As a reference in case it doesn't get merged, <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=415117" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">this thread</a> is full of excellent discussion and detailed information on a wide range of class issues for both raiding and non-raiding SKs.

Latpow

07-25-2008, 12:31 PM

A Simple request would be that our cast times are FIXED... For Example<ul><li> Crimson Circle</li><li>Tap Arteries</li><li>Devouring Mist</li><li>Pain Wrath</li><li>Grave Sacrament</li><li>Grave Blessing</li></ul> All would be GREAT if the cast time was actually the " 1.82 " (with 10% recast AA) Cast that is SHOWN ON THE EXAMINE. They all take about FOUR SECONDS to actually cast. Please FIX THIS IF ANYTHING ELSE or change the cast time to reflect the proper time so our AA (and +spell cast buffs like the monk raidw8de) can shave some extra cast time off these spells. The only time they cast for 1.82 is during Death March. Fixing our Cast time for these would be HUGE as we LOSE DPS actually casting our spells as it is. Thanks, DarkcPS: Just to bring this point home... I log on my Illusionist and cast Chromatic Shower at 2.19 cast time spell (without Perpetuality or the other Illusionist Cast speed buff on). Casts faster than an SK "1.82" spell. Then I log on my lvl 42 Necro. I cast Draw Life (2.0 Cast time)... faster than an SK 1.82... THEN I cast Locust swarm (listed as 3.0) and BINGO that cast time matches the SK cast time of "1.82". This is not rocket science, test it out yourself... our spells are actually casting as 3.0 WITH a 10% cast bonus. Have Fun... Fellow SKs, please verify this to make sure it's not an issue with my connection, computer, etc... as this would prove we really are "broken".

Xersu

07-25-2008, 06:43 PM

<cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sadly I disagree with most of your post, but there are a few things below I wanted to point out specifically.Xersues wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dark Caress: Even at master 1, this spell is absolutely worthless. With 47 taunt and 150 damage every time we are hit, this spell does not help us much at all. Would much rather have a way to increase damage considering how it takes 1 concentration slot. If this had Stoneskin chance, or a chance at damage reflection I would be much happier.While in raids this may not do much, in groups this can be a decent amount of hate. Free agro against whatever adds may come along as long as you get them first. I also don't even remotely expect this to change, as it is the equivalent of the same type of buff every other fighter class also gets in one form or fashion. At least ours has a damage component unlike most of the other fighters that is just pure taunt.I can agree with that.Insinuate: A weak taunt over time that I don't even use. I use the Goading Gesture for 10% at double the taunt, that scales higher than the master 2 version of this spell. Please see taunt issues below in the class mechanic issues.If you aren't using this it is completely your loss. Insinuate M2 does just as much as goading jesture up front, plus it has all the over time stuff. If you are using Goading for the 10% chance at double the taunt you are losing agro. Insinuate is our top hate ability if you don't count death march, death touch, and rescue.Why take this spell when you can take Tap arteries? Life tap component and damage is enormous comparitively, making insinuate really not worth the M2 choice, hence why I use goading gesture. In terms of pure tauntage, yes I am losing agro, but is made up (in my opinion) by the damage of Tap Arteries and the extra life gained. A personal choice of course.Painful Aura: While nice and quick, the damage is low and is another DoT, extremely ineffective at holding agro. One of the best casting times however.This is one of our top dps efficiency spells. (5th actually behind our 2 taunts, shield bash, and shadow coil). Damage/(cast+recovery). That is how you figure out the spike of what is going to generate the most damage for the period of time. As a class Shadowknights pretty much always have something to cast, so this is the way you maximize dps.And here in lies the problem. You have to give the shadowknight time. Time most DPS classes on raids or in general should not give the them to kill a mob, when virtually no other fighter has that problem. Brigands give the most trouble to me in particular. If they give me just 3 seconds to spike damage through DoTs BEFORE they attack I am fine. However, why the wait? The initial spike for a shadowknight is weak, however over time becomes much better as the casting chain progresses. I agree shadowknights DO always have something to cast, and I love that about them, but that DoT is hardly going to help with agro unless you can time your spikes with the DPS spikes that are signifigantly greater. I always feel like I am playing catch up in the beginning unless the dps waits a moment. A second or two makes all the difference.Avoidance: Through itemization and poor self buffs shadowknights are dead last in survivability. Our only saving grace is DA once every 10 minutes and switching to defensive stance and praying for heals. We have no stoneskin, only life taps that cannot be modified against raid mobs. While our life taps are fine in groups, they are severely lacking when in raids where a 3-10k hit is easily possible.If you choose your gear right you can still do more than fine on avoidance while still being able to do more than enough dps. Currently I have 62% avoidance self buffed in defensive stance (I am including the parry buff) and 55% in offensive. Yes it is possible. But that makes the SK gear to maximize whatever efficiency you are trying to accomplish at the time very limiting. It is possible to get good gear for sure, but most of these pieces have low access or are few and far between. Why? </blockquote></blockquote>It seems you and I have a difference to how the class should work. Which is fine, its a hybrid, thats going to happen. I do agree that many suggestions are quite overpowered and the SK class does need some tweaking with the biggest issue being casting times and the spike damage that has been mentioned. Just my 1.5 cents

Nero

07-25-2008, 10:56 PM

Suggestions which I think as simple and "realistic".(1)DPS: Increase DPS of Shadowknight's spells and combat arts with shortening the casting time of Shadowknight's spells/CAs and/or increasing the damage of Shadowknight's spells/CAs.(2)Defence: Give Shadowknight same mitigation and avoidance(parry, block, riposte and uncontested) as Warriors. If possible, same HP as Warriors.(3)Survivability: Change all SK's offensive spells and combat arts to lifetap. For example, if SK doesn't have Reaving line, Shadow Coil will become a lifetap. It will be great that Pariah's Strike, Anguish, Doom Rays, Lucan's Boot, Death Touch, Crimson Circle, Shadow Coil, Contagion, Pain Wrath, Hateful Slam, Malice, and Painful Aura become lifetaps without AA. Otherwise, increase lifetaps by changing some SK's spells/CAs to lifetaps.#3 may be a bit overpowered.Whether #3 is overpowered or not, #1 and #2 seem to be needed.By the way, the thing which I would like to see personally is a permanent pet.If devs regard the permanent pet as overpowered, I can't help but give up....But I just love pet.I'm sorry for not pertinent wish.

Tiberuis

07-27-2008, 05:34 PM

Issue : Mitigation. SK's are last amoungst the Plate Tank classes in Mitigation.Suggestion: Increase SK Mitigation by improving Defensive Stance. This may actually cause some SK's to use the Defensive Stance, which is currently almost useless.Issue : Avoidance. SK's are last amoungst the Plate Tank classes in Avoidance.Suggestion : Increase SK Avoidance by improving Defensive Stance. This may actually encourage some SK's to use the Defensive Stance, which is currently almost useless.Issue : Aggro Management. SK's are last amoungst the Plate Tank classes in Aggro Management.Suggestion : Increase the up front hate increase values of both single target, and AOE taunts. Scale Death March to T8. Voila! Aggro Management fixed.Issue : DPS. SK's are second last amoungst the Plate Tank classes in DPS.Suggestion : Increase the base damage value of all SK spells, including the laughable Harm Touch line. There goes the DPS issue.OK, I know it is a simple post. But I see these SK issues as being simple issues to correct, without revamping our very cool class design and core identity values. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater? Just carefully apply the simple fixes above in balance with the other Plate Tank classes, and boy, the SK will function MUCH better as a tank in this game (without being overpowered).<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Nero

07-27-2008, 06:51 PM

State of the Shadowknight compared to Warriors' AA.Warriors generally have the following AA.STR 4-4-8STA 4-4-8-8INT 4-1STR 4-4-8 for Weapon Expertise. This melee crit helps high DPS of Warriors.STA 4-4-8-8 for Gladiator's Finesse and Gladiator's Revenge. These double attack and tac-au-tac help both DPS and survivability. And Buckler Reversal for riposte for DPS.INT 4-1 for Acceleration Strike. This faster melee/casting/cast-recovery helps DPS.And Warriors get INT 4-8-8-7-2 for DPS.Otherwise, they get AGI 4-4-6-8-2 for almost unbeatable survivability(Dragoon's Reflex can parry all the attack).Compared to these Warriors' AA, how are Crusaders' AA?(1)DPSThere are Avenger's Relentlessness(haste), Avenging Invigoration(faster casting/recasting/cast-recovery), Fervor of Faith(crit of physical damage), and Legionnaire's Wrath(spell crit).Legionnaire's Wrath(spell crit) is great. But other DPS AAs are a little bit poor compared to melee crit/double attack/riposte.Warriors' STA line is really awesome. Riposte/double attack/tac-au-tac help DPS very much.(2)SurvivabilityCrusaders have Divine Aura(a kind of Ward). But it is slightly poor. Ward 50% of HP of caster is very weak. And to make matters worse, Shadowknight has only low HP.Warriors have almost unbeatable survivability. Dragoon's Reflex can parry all the attack. When it is combined with Stoneskin(Tower of Stone), crusaders can't help but being overshadowed.Lifetap? In the first place, it is Healers that heal fighters. In solo and group, lifetap is very effective. But, in the raid where epic mob's melee attack gives over 10000 damage, lifetaps, which are interrupted and resisted frequently and heal the caster a little, aren't useful very much. Lifetaps don't help much in RoK raid.I think the state of the Shadowknight compared to Warriors' AA as above.PS.Yeah, improve Mitigation, Avoidance, Hate Control and DPS of SK.But it will help Shadowknight only to be behind Warriors, not equal to Warriors.Why? Because Guardian have almost unbeatable survivability as I mentioned as above.Shadowknight gave up mitigation and avoidance instead of Lifetap.But lifetaps aren't useful very much in RoK raid as I mentioned as above.So, to be "realistic" truly, Shadowknight can't help but being overpowered. Why? Because Guardian is actually already "overpowered". At least, no other fighters are rated on par with Guardian.So, for example, if lifetap is our characteristics, improve lifetap to be as useful as Stoneskin of Guardian in RoK raid.Improving mit, avoidance, hate control and DPS will help SK to be a better fighter. But it is not enough to change the present situation that only Guardian Main Tank in RoK raid, at least players want Guardian to Main Tank.Players want Guardian to Main Tank. It's the problem.Players think that a raid with Guardian is easier than with other fighters. And players think that Guardian is superior than other fighters in raid.It is true.So, it is well and good that players want Guardian to Main Tank. Because it is natural that people choose an easy way.Is Shadowknight hard to be understood? So, it is a system based problem, isn't it? Not player based problem. Because Shadowknight was designed to be hard to be understood. If so, it is natural that players want Guardian.It doesn't matter whether Shadowknight can Main Tank or not.People actually say that Shadowknight is unwanted and unneeded in a raid. It may come from players' not understanding about Shadowknight very well. If so, at least, change Shadowknight to be as easy to be understood as Guardian.I doubt that "realistic tweaking"(not "unrealistic revamp" ) can change this situation in which SKs are unwanted and unneeded compared to Guardian.Repeating to say, it doesn't matter whether Shadowknight can actually Main Tank in RoK raid or not. Players have already thought that Guardian is superior than other fighters in raid. We can't enlighten. If Shadowknight is hard to be understood, it is a system based problem. Not player based. Change Shadowknight to be easy to be understood.By the way, why do a lot of players say that fighters except for Guardian are unwanted and unneeded in RoK raid? I can't help but thinking that there is not only a player based problem, but also a system based problem.

slippery

07-28-2008, 05:09 AM

Quoting the following, but the response applies to more than just the following. I am obviously the largest proponet for very little happening with the SK class. You can see the things that I think need fixed/tweaked in the second reply of this thread. In my opinion most of the failings for the SK class come in the form of itemization, and if itemization gets fixed like I mentioned in my initial post most of the problems go away.<cite>Istar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>People Initially Progressed through these tiers with guards and Berserkers for a reason. and its not so much as crunching min and Max situations. They have the gear and ability To scale while progressing. a guard/zerker fully geared with T1-T3 Stuff going into VP, is ready to take on content in there. Its tough yes.. Its supposed to be.. But Gear inside VP is supposed to Make VP easier .. Thats the point of gear progression. An SK in DemonGuard and whatever Jewlry mix they think is good from T1-T3 is still not fully ready for working on VP .</blockquote>This is a completely ignorant comment and far from the truth. I MT'd the majority of the 3rd wing of VP as an SK with zero problems. I didn't MT Silverwing but I picked it up twice with zero problems when the MT got chosen for the lever and later charmed. Each time I held it for 30+ seconds without dieing. Also did Shade/Phara in almost completely legendary gear (not even the best instanced gear at that because I'm still missing some, and only Fabled epic because it was literally my first time raiding on the SK) and holding agro against 85k raid dps with zero problems. I even off tanked Shade and did the switches on Phara with only a Warden and an Inquisitor for heals (yes, thats right, I didn't have a shaman) and only a dirge for hate. The ability to FD made it supper easy, and the other tank was a zerker so you can't even say it was recapture. This isn't in some amazing top guild either, this was in a guild who it was only their 3rd time clearing VP. SK's are fully capable tanks if you know what you are doing.Would a Guardian have been able to do it better? How do you define better? I had zero problems with any of it. You can argue they could have done it "easier" but that is completely relative. Easier when there isn't a problem doing it in the first place means nothing.My gear that night where I did all the third wing tanking?Crimson Helm of Horror (my one piece of raid gear from prior when it was my alt in another guild)Cloak of the Grungetalon ChampionMighty HauberkMantle of the Jarsath TribeDreadscale GreavesArmguards of the Elite Yha-lei shock troopersGauntlets of SanctificationCharred SabatonsSeditionEnduring Wall (that I got earlier in that same day)Stretched Sinew BowGrunblig's Blackened Allow BeltDanak Essence Vial NecklaceSignet of the AnkexfenSarnak Earring of StationBroken Toe ShinyPristine Imbued Tynnonium Band of StrengthGrunblig's CoilDragonscale BraceletWhy did I bother typing all that out? To prove the point. I did it in that. In a guild that only cleared vp twice so obviously didn't have completely awesome gear. When I wasn't MT'ing I didn't have a shaman. We didn't have problems.The classes problem in agro isn't there, it is a player problem. Knowing what to hit in what order is all that matters beyond upgrading your abilities, which everyone has to do.DPS? I'm doing 4k+ on VP Trash (I do now have some better gear from the past 3 weeks since the initial tanking) with a dirge, coercer (that was boxed and doing nothing), Inquisitor, and Mystic (plus whatever person happened to be afk and got moved to my scrub group). This was while OT'ing for the night. I got moved up to the MT group for a short while in the third wing and dps was pretty much the same. On nameds it depends on which named and what I am doing.In response to Xersues. You take Insinuate over Tap if you are going to tank because Insinuate is your best agro normal agro ability (if you don't include death march, death touch, and rescue). If you can't get the master of Tap you leave it at Ad3. You get more agro from Insinuate. As to the next paragraph from your response, I don't feel like I'm playing catch up. Nuke with whatever is up to pull if possible, else body pull. Insinuate, Chastisement, Hateful Slam, Shadow Coil, Painful Aura, Anguish, Contagion, Siphon Strike, Siphon Vitae, Doom Rays. Taunts when up, lesser abilities when all that stuff is down. Death March if you know someone is about to do something big and you won't lose the mob when they do it.To Xersues in your final point, a lot of the gear I want is t1-3 or the first 4 named in soh/soh trash. That in my opinion is not hard to obtain. <blockquote></blockquote>

Darkc

07-28-2008, 10:04 AM

While I agree that many issues SKs face are "player issues", honestly this notion that you rock so hard that you can do all this stuff while other SKs fail horrible just baffles me. Also, for parsing 4K+ in VP while OT'ing and using the Fabled Epic lol. Post some parses please. Not that 4k is anything special anymore, I've seen Dirges parse 5k - 6k... but still what is your DPS breakdown? I know it's possible and I've posted close to 4k many times, but it takes some gear switching... using potions, stones, maybe a Bertox Miracle, and getting lucky enough to get a healer that doesnt stop healing you after 2 fights of using your Bloodthirsty Choker. Also, you make it seem like you just stroll in and colllect some of the nice gear you have np. Most SKs can't get INTO RAIDS to get stuff like the Dragonscale Bracelet.Slippery instead of stroking your "[Removed for Content] of OMG I'm so Fabulous", how you test stuff that matters like this obvious spell casting bug (hey jump on your wizard and cast a 2.0 - 3.0 then do the same on your SK) and maybe sharing how you're putting up some of these "great" numbers. I didn't think debuffs, making sure to coordinate your Autoattacks, keeping the long cast spells to minimum (trying to get in a group that provides double atk, DPS, Haste buffs) was rocket science but obviously you're on to something.

Kaarim

07-28-2008, 01:06 PM

<cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>The classes problem in agro isn't there, it is a player problem. Knowing what to hit in what order is all that matters beyond upgrading your abilities, which everyone has to do.<blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>I think he's right, I was thinking the samething...I wasn't sure if anyone else felt the sameway. The class isn't so forsaken it's just a really really difficult class to understand and learn to play. Tactics are involed to play this class to it's max I learned a long time ago it's not just button pushing even after debuffs, it's a certain order, a rhythm. Itemization is low for crusaders ya but there are items that we can fill on all our equipment slots that's not raid essential and perform well and still tank instances and raids. My gear setup is sort of like Slipperys I try to wear as much double attack and melee crit items as I possibly can without dropping str/int/sta below 600, I too have tanked parts of VP and haven't encounter any serious issues.The class does have some issues ya, DPS can be a bit better with some of our abilities. The mitigation and avoidance system is broken once that is fixed half our problems will be gone. Darkc's response to Slippery:"While I agree that many issues SKs face are "player issues", honestly this notion that you rock so hard that you can do all this stuff while other SKs fail horrible just baffles me.".."Slippery instead of stroking your "[Removed for Content] of OMG I'm so Fabulous", how you test stuff that matters like this obvious spell casting bug (hey jump on your wizard and cast a 2.0 - 3.0 then do the same on your SK) and maybe sharing how you're putting up some of these "great" numbers. I didn't think debuffs, making sure to coordinate your Autoattacks, keeping the long cast spells to minimum (trying to get in a group that provides double atk, DPS, Haste buffs) was rocket science but obviously you're on to something. "Much respect to Darkc and I'm happy that another person can ID that many issue's may be the player base. I don't think Slippery was trying to show off or anything. I kind of understand how he feels if. I do feel frustrated once in awhile when I read these forums seeing the same complaints over and over when really it's not that huge of a deal. I think he just wanted to show that yes shadowknights can tank, and can dps but you just need to understand and study the class. It's a tactical class I admit. With every new expansion I have to retool and tweak my shadowknights stats and gear since something is always changing in combat mechanics. How an SK was intended to be built at Launch is not what it is intended now in RoK, and in the next expansion it's gonna change again. Even the formation and setup of our gear involves some kind of tactics a balance of dps and survival. I don't want this to flame at anyone I just wanted to point out I agree with BOTH of you. We think the sameway and now I'm sure there are more that think this way that it's the "player base" and I think we should form a thread to see who agrees and disagrees if shadowknights lack of perfomance is the community or are we just that seriously broken and beatin that it's the entire system sinking the class. I believe a forum like that will also help the developers see BOTH sides of players the ones who feel shadowknights are fine but need a polish, and those that feel we are truly broken and need a revamp like coercers and rangers. I think it will also make a great discussion and will also help ppl who want to either make a shadowknight or help new knights see or not see the potential of the class. The player defines the class not the dev's, utilize what ya got. *I don't post much but I do check in everyday to read forums I'm still learning the mechanics not sure how to setup a new forum if anyone is interested and willing to have a discussion thread I ask if you can please set it up thanks! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> *I got respect for all Dark Knights so I'm not callin out or flaming anyone. This is NOT an easy class to play it took me and I'm sure Slippy, Darkc and anyother SK's that feel this way to realize what we can do if we just sit down take the time to study and learn the class, optimizing ourselves.

DMIstar

07-28-2008, 01:59 PM

<cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>Quoting the following, but the response applies to more than just the following. I am obviously the largest proponet for very little happening with the SK class. You can see the things that I think need fixed/tweaked in the second reply of this thread. In my opinion most of the failings for the SK class come in the form of itemization, and if itemization gets fixed like I mentioned in my initial post most of the problems go away.<cite>Istar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>People Initially Progressed through these tiers with guards and Berserkers for a reason. and its not so much as crunching min and Max situations. They have the gear and ability To scale while progressing. a guard/zerker fully geared with T1-T3 Stuff going into VP, is ready to take on content in there. Its tough yes.. Its supposed to be.. But Gear inside VP is supposed to Make VP easier .. Thats the point of gear progression. An SK in DemonGuard and whatever Jewlry mix they think is good from T1-T3 is still not fully ready for working on VP .</blockquote>This is a completely ignorant comment and far from the truth. I MT'd the majority of the 3rd wing of VP as an SK with zero problems. I didn't MT Silverwing but I picked it up twice with zero problems when the MT got chosen for the lever and later charmed. Each time I held it for 30+ seconds without dieing. Also did Shade/Phara in almost completely legendary gear (not even the best instanced gear at that because I'm still missing some, and only Fabled epic because it was literally my first time raiding on the SK) and holding agro against 85k raid dps with zero problems. I even off tanked Shade and did the switches on Phara with only a Warden and an Inquisitor for heals (yes, thats right, I didn't have a shaman) and only a dirge for hate. The ability to FD made it supper easy, and the other tank was a zerker so you can't even say it was recapture. This isn't in some amazing top guild either, this was in a guild who it was only their 3rd time clearing VP. SK's are fully capable tanks if you know what you are doing.Would a Guardian have been able to do it better? How do you define better? I had zero problems with any of it. You can argue they could have done it "easier" but that is completely relative. Easier when there isn't a problem doing it in the first place means nothing.My gear that night where I did all the third wing tanking?Crimson Helm of Horror (my one piece of raid gear from prior when it was my alt in another guild)Cloak of the Grungetalon ChampionMighty HauberkMantle of the Jarsath TribeDreadscale GreavesArmguards of the Elite Yha-lei shock troopersGauntlets of SanctificationCharred SabatonsSeditionEnduring Wall (that I got earlier in that same day)Stretched Sinew BowGrunblig's Blackened Allow BeltDanak Essence Vial NecklaceSignet of the AnkexfenSarnak Earring of StationBroken Toe ShinyPristine Imbued Tynnonium Band of StrengthGrunblig's CoilDragonscale BraceletWhy did I bother typing all that out? To prove the point. I did it in that. In a guild that only cleared vp twice so obviously didn't have completely awesome gear. When I wasn't MT'ing I didn't have a shaman. We didn't have problems.The classes problem in agro isn't there, it is a player problem. Knowing what to hit in what order is all that matters beyond upgrading your abilities, which everyone has to do.DPS? I'm doing 4k+ on VP Trash (I do now have some better gear from the past 3 weeks since the initial tanking) with a dirge, coercer (that was boxed and doing nothing), Inquisitor, and Mystic (plus whatever person happened to be afk and got moved to my scrub group). This was while OT'ing for the night. I got moved up to the MT group for a short while in the third wing and dps was pretty much the same. On nameds it depends on which named and what I am doing.</blockquote>See the problem here is, we are not actually doing anything to compare our situations. We are takeing to some artificial Level of what one person can do vs another person can do with a guard.. This is not going to fix anything and it never will. The game is built up of numbers, and thats how these changes will be made by. Comeing here saying omg i can tank this and I can tank that.. is well and fine, but you don't know why, then its pointless debate. I see brawlers are tanking the same things, Hell Scouts have mobs they tank as well. But this is not going to solve any issue we are comeing against.. I am not going to run up and start blindly posting about I cant tank something without knowing anything. Again, with out any changes, its going to be the same as last expansion, Guilds will use guards/zerkers to clear the zone ,maybe even pallies depending apon what it is, first. Reasoning being.. Guards/Zerkers have a line of progression and the stats with equilvelant numbers above SK's. Seriously What is the point? .. Do you think SK's have not tanked this stuff yet ? The point i see is, SK's use up more resources then not, in order to do the same thing as another class, and for what gain ? Right now, As its well seen by the sheer amount of people useing what they are.. its not worth it. If there was ever a screw up where SK's became more valuable then a guard, it will be noticed and taken advantage of, sure enough. Like how it went with EQ. People do notice these things.. Its not because SK's [Removed for Content] off every guild leader in the game lol.

Tiberuis

07-28-2008, 05:08 PM

<cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>Would a Guardian have been able to do it better? How do you define better? I had zero problems with any of it. You can argue they could have done it "easier" but that is completely relative. Easier when there isn't a problem doing it in the first place means nothing.</blockquote>I'm glad to hear you have had an opportunity to successfully MT some ROK raid content. But I respectfully disagree with your broad based statement that "easier means nothing." What we are talking about here is class balance. And regardless of how many SK's gleefully post that they are uber 4K ZW + DPS'ers, and MT ROK raid content without any trouble, is totally irrelevant. What IS relevant is that almost every Raid Leader, on every server, will tell you that you are NUTS if you are an SK and you want to MT ROK content. Why? Because the other plate tank classes will do it better than you. They will have better aggro/hate management, higher mitigation, higher avoidance, and/or much higher DPS as MT than you. Why? Because the core plate tank competencies of mitigation, avoidance, aggro management and DPS are not currently balanced. All of the other plate tank classes will have better base tanking abilities than an SK. A Guardian will tank, AND DPS, the pants off an SK in ROK MT raid content. No contest. That is an indisputable fact of the current game design.If that imbalance does not bother you, that is fantastic. Enjoy the game. Tank your zones, and blast your DPS. SK's For The Win, I say. Good for you.But for the rest of us SK' that want our class brought up to balance, don't give up. Keep posting your issues and suggestions. The Devs are listening. The cavalry is coming. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(edit for spelling)

MirageKnight

07-28-2008, 08:17 PM

While some people will argue "spell consolidation" will make game too easy; which I don't think smashing more hotkeys should determine the how well one knows about the class. Tired of seeing similar equiped wizard do 5000dps in same raid, same group, same combat, while another can only produce 2000dps, as for raid leader would make big headache if same class performance is way too much different with same equipment that will result raid difficulty.As for SK, I clearly see there is no need to splitPainful Swing LinePariah's Strike (71)Cleave Flesh LineAnguish (71)Kick LineLucan's Boot (74)into 3 different arts, as for example. While people can argue on my selection of 3 into 1, this is just to illustrate SK has arts that just waste of clicks (which lead to waste of mana and lower dmg than auto attacks). Mana Sieve is another example which I think be better to put together with some other spell.

Seolta

07-29-2008, 11:56 AM

Raid Tanking<ul><li>Change Harmtouch to "Hatetouch" - decrease dmg amount, change to faster recast and add a hate component equal to the dmg amount.</li><li>Improve Defensive stance - add +block, replace wis with agi.</li><li>Add a chance to absorb an attack to self ward line</li><li>Add some form of reflect in the STA AA line</li></ul>Raid Utility<ul><li>Use some of our most unpopular AA's to give us increased raid utility in the form of buffs and debuffs (decay/agi/wis)</li></ul>Raid DPS<ul><li>Add DPS bonuses to str line AA's</li><li>Add +Double Attack and +Melee Crit to existing and furure gear</li><li>Add more Lifetap and DoT focus effects to gear</li><li>Improve Offensive stance - add +Double Attack, and a Flurry or Enraged type component</li></ul>More to follow...this was just off the top of my head and wanted to get a post up asap.

Candoor

07-30-2008, 03:51 AM

To me it seems simpler on the itemisation issues to remove the issue rather than backtracking 1000's of pieces of armour and adding 5 stats to all.Powerpool:Change from INT to AGIDefensive Stance:Change WIS to AGI (hopefully should help with the avoidance gaps - if still a big gap add + parry % or so too).Offensive Stance:Change INT to STR and / or +double attack or melee/spell crit / what you will....AA:Bring us in line with Guardian / Zerker - we need a real boost on auto attack dmg via either double attack / melee crits or soItemisation:When the above is done (similar to Pallie ofcourse on stances) SK and Pallie wont care about INT and WIS so the only issue then I see is no +spell dmg / critsDPS:2h needs serious upgrade dmg wise to be remotely comparable to dual wield. Also need a much greater selection of 2h drops from non VP zones....auto attack accuracy is pretty scary for my sk...Spell Casting Time:It can take 20 seconds before I get in debuffs / dots / pet etc.. by which time the end of the fight is done and thats without timing for auto attack swings or even starting on the direct damage stuff....My monk alt on the other hand can spam his CA's like there is no tomorrow - a much lower casting time on SK spells could help significantly for aggro control / dps and the stupid amount of interrupts which also singificantly hurt dps and aggro control....Alrighty - back to lurking I go.

Nero

07-30-2008, 08:47 AM

The general concept of RoK is DPS.The concept of Tank of RoK is Avoidance.Whether devs intended or not.So, it is not surprising that Shadowknights which have lowest DPS and lowest Avoidance in fighters have been unwanted and unneeded.

Pitt Hammerfi

08-02-2008, 06:56 AM

Our casting is taking longer than what the spell reportson a 1.82 casting time on tap arteries, its taking more like 3 seconds.It's not just Tap Arteries either, try Crimson circle, and any other spell To me it looks like casting reduction effects are not working. It shows the reduction in the spell description, but its not changing at all.Can anyone else test this ?

HentaiB

08-02-2008, 02:50 PM

Timing seems correct to me? Did a stop watch came in under 2 seconds every time

Pitt Hammerfi

08-03-2008, 11:17 AM

<cite>Dekeon@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Timing seems correct to me? Did a stop watch came in under 2 seconds every time</blockquote>Heh ok you caught me out, i timed it using mississippi, definatley feels longer than 1.82 seconds though.I would time it but i dont have a stopwatch

Darkc

08-03-2008, 01:06 PM

No Stopwatch, but if you're going that route please try it on another caster's spell like Necro. The tests I've been doing show them actualy casting slower spells faster than our "1.82" spells. I'll buy a stopwatch later to try to verify.

DMIstar

08-03-2008, 11:34 PM

Stop Watch:Crimson Circle : Supposed to 1.82 .. actual 2.16~doomrays : Supposed to .91 ... Actual 1.21~tap Atremis : supposed 1.82 .. actually 2.16unholy arms : 2.73 actual ... 3.06 pain wrath : 1.82 actual 2.20contagion : 1.36 actual 1.71 Grave blessing 1.82 actual 2.07* this is with STR endline ability of so called improveing Spell cast timers..

Pitt Hammerfi

08-05-2008, 12:00 AM

hmm nevermind i timed it, and its right

DMIstar

08-05-2008, 12:56 AM

Well i just did it, clearing out STR End line ability, to see if it was the ability that was messing things up.. I still get off Times regardless... Unholy arms is clearly clocking at 3.15sec ... Our 1.82sec Spells are still clocking beyond 2secs.. so ... yeah... this is something i think they will never fix.

Soul_Dreamer

08-07-2008, 10:43 AM

While bored at work I was thinking about the issues SK's have and how to fix them, I don't know the class well because I'm a Guardian but our OT is a SK and I play his char every now and then and raid with him 5/6 times a week.SK Main Issues, as I see them.1. Lower avoid than all other plate tanks.2. Lower survivability than all other plate tanks.3. Lower agro genertion than all other plate tanks.Possible fixes...??1. Like the cleric tree, add a "Steadfast" like ability to a USEFUL ability on the Crusader tree. Make it stood still only just like stead fast so in PvP SK's still can't cast on the run.2. Make str decide the damage of the SK and Palladin spells. This will do away with the whole Str/Agi/Sta gear against Str/Int/Sta gear. Means SK's can now only work on 3 stats the same as warriors and Bruisers and makes itemisation more standardised across the plate fighters. This should help alot with DPS while in defensive stance so SK's can hold agro properly. Maybe add + Double attack on the offensive stance in place of Int? only 3-5% or so, 1 high end fabled item can have 60 ish int on it and high low end fabled/groupable legendary can have 3-4% double attack, so 3-5% Double attack in place of 100int isn't to much to ask for really IMO.3. Crusader ONLY plate, some nice items have come in with RE2 and I hope it carries on in a similar fasion, ESPECIALLY in the end game of the new expansion.A long long time ago in a game far away Crusaders used Vanguard plate which had higher Mit and Warriors use plate which had slighly lower Mit but warriors had temporary buffs to increase their mitigation for short periods. When this mechanic was done away with and all plate classes could use any plate Warriors gained an advantage with their temporary mit buffs while Crusaders gained nothing, either an ability needs to be added to Crusaders to make up for this or it needs to be fixed through itemisation such as crusader only items with + Block/+Riposte in slots where the stat isn't available to warriors.4. Add + Riposte to the SK and Pally Defensive stances. Lack of parry on defensive stance is ALOT inferior to Warriors, maybe a small uncontested bonus to the Crusader def stances to help with surviveability, only 3-5%.5. Lifetaps need to scale with Mob level to keep them viable in end game, when a Guardian can ToS 3 x 18k (unmitigated) hits or add 3k Mit for 40 seconds to reduce hits by 15-20% and all a shadowknight can do is pray and maybe get off a 2/3 3k lifetaps there is something wrong <img src="http://eq2flames.com/images/smilies/smiley-happy.gif" border="0" alt="" />Solo - Lifetap = Damage done to mob.Heroic - Lifetap = Damage x3 done to mob.Epic - Lifetap = Damage x5 done to mob.6. Deathmarch Tweak the ability to make it help the SK with survivability as well as DPS and Hate.eq. For every 5 HP any member of the group deals to target the Shadowknight receives 1 HP, will stay up for as long as "on the march" is up.ADD a T8 Version of Deathmarch, it's lost it's potency and doesn't do what it used to.7. Increase the Syphon hate ability to 5%-10% of each group members hate.Palladins have Amends, arguably one of the most powerful tanking abilities in game, combined with the extra defensive utilities they get it puts them way ahead of SKs when competing for the role of OT/ST, something needs to be done to even up that a little.8. Reaver....... Honestly? It does next to nothing in it's current state. Needs to have something added to it so it's not just a HP drain with a heal on spells. -5% incomming damage AND the heal wouldn't be to overpowered would it since Palladins get +5% protection value on shields on their aa lines.Palladin (with aa which adds about 2% block??, call it 22% for ease of test) = 100 attacks, each of 5000, 22 blocked so 110,000 damage blocked, 390,000 gets through (78 x5k hits). SK (with aa to add - 5% damage and a 20% block shield) = 100 attacks each of 5000, 20 blocked, so 100,000 damage blocked, 400,000 - 5% = 380,000 gets through (80 x4.75k hits)

skycruise

08-08-2008, 12:00 PM

Suggestion:Any life taps that you do when at 100%, go into a separate pool of life, where at each tick, 1/2 of this pool gets added to your hit points.If you are already at 100% then this would just go back into the pool of life. So if you get a huge hit that knocks you down to 60% hp, and say you have 2000 points of hp in the pool of life, you would get +1000 at the next tick, and then +500 at the one after that.Heals from other players would not get added to this, only life taps. And it would make the epic/mythical proc more useful.

Giral

08-11-2008, 01:30 AM

what i would do to fix sk's Agro : Snap Agro : give us a Large AE instant Huge damage ability "Death Reaper" does 8 k damage on target and 5 k damage on all other targets in encounter on 5 minute timer . for single targets combining this with DT we would do a 16 K nuke = to some other Tank classes Single target Damage . and on AE encounters we would have another AE agro tool and be able to put up some occasional High parses .... i read on flames that paladins have a Buff called " Blessing of the Paladins and that SK's have no equivelent to this Large Buff " .. so us getting a Large AE damage spell on a 5 minute timer would be our answer . Sustained Agro : Increase Syphon hate to 8 % of group Survivability : Put the 2nd charge back on Bloodletter and cannot be debuffed in Raids,(in groups one charge could be debuffed but one should be permanent) it originaly had 2 in beta people Cried overpowered and since Sk's have been the Plate tank with survivability issue's in ROK. nice that the set gear has an extra charge but what happens when we outgrow that set gear ? we are back to 1 charge on bloodletter.change wisdom to aviod on def stance add a Def stat and lessen the amount of dps loss by 30% Offensive stance add an Increase to any 2 handed weopon DPS : Make deathmarch last for 15 seconds, proc on any kill in a raid, and never not proc increase spell cast timers , or make us less interruptable when casting

MirageKnight

08-19-2008, 02:09 AM

Since lv80 is still cap in comming expansion, more SK would (well, if SK can get spot in raid other than pay plat to get that raid spot) finish his/her mythical SK epic, and would get very disappointed as it won't support any SK role.Revise SK epic is really needed before that, and better check out what SK community who have gotten his/her mythical SK epic and gave feedback.10% dmg absorbtion is must at least to be raid tanking SK. (yes, any plate tank can do without, but which tank would ppl rather pick for their tank; tank who has harder time staying alive or tank who has more chance of staying alive by getting less dmg. Choice is abvious, and SK is only fighter class missing this any dmg reduction on mythical epic.)

RanmaBoyType

08-20-2008, 10:39 AM

Sk's are not completely borked IMO, but we def are not on par, in any field with other tanks. Sub par dps, sub par mit, sub par avoidance.1) epic/myth. why again is the sk the only one with 0 type of damage mitigation on it? no seriously, w-t-f is up with that. Ya think it has something else so amazing to counter this, however LOL at that....2) Damage mitigation. we have 0 temp buffs to help mitigation incomming damage. Despoiling mist is a joke considering the lack of encounter mobs in RoK. what "oh crap" spells do we have to help mitigate that big spike damage? 0. why? 3) Lifetaps and overall scaling of our "spells" Sk lifetaps and spells have absolutely horrid scaling in RoK. the amount of health healed per lifetap is a joke when compared to how hard RoK mobs hit. Even with full reaver line its just ridiculous to think that this is some sort of valid bonus to being an SK.4) AA's - the only semi decent bonuses we get are melee crit and spell crit(spells, see item number 3). No bonus to using a shield, No bonus to using a 2 hander. and we cant dual wield. sounds kind of [Removed for Content] to force sword and board, or 2 hander yet offer 0 type of aa compensation for such. ALL other fighters(minus pallies) get SOME sort of bonus to either using a shield of some sort, dual wielding or 2 hander if they choose that aa path. granted it may not be the best at least its a foogin option.5) Aggro management - what is this a joke? yeah a good sk can hold aggro, but not without help (hate transfer of some sort) there is no doubt that sk's have the most difficult time in aggro management for most any encounter. and the siphon hate aa? Another joke i assume for the fraction of hate it transfers.We get hit more than any other fighters. when we get hit we get hit hard. we have little to no way to help mitigate that. Our dps is sub par, especially if we are forced to defensive stance (which btw we also get no aa to "remove the negative effects of the defensive stance" like other fighters get). Aggro management is the most didfficult for SK over any other fighter.Yeah. ive stated in other threads in other topics that SK's can do it. hell i do it on my SK all the time. tanked all instances, including RE2. raid every now and then as well (usually needed on sisters in SoH) but in reality why. ANY of the other 5 fighters can do my job, easier, more efficient and with less risk, while doing more dps as the same time.

MirageKnight

08-21-2008, 02:55 PM

Problem is spells/combat arts won't scale with weapon SK using.Even SK is using shaving razer or mytical epic weapon, dmg base and dmg amount stays same.This is creating big gap of auto attack dmg (which made double attack much more efficient method of increasing dps) and ca/spell dmg amount imo.Some thouts on T8's SK's Spells/Combat Arts.58-Death March - when enemy slayed, group gains increased int, combat attack damage and immunity to control spells for a short duration60-Devious Evasion - Additional avoidance check on target, increased parry on casterneed T8 version or many SK will suffer to get m1 for essencial SK role m163-Mortal Embrace - feigns death to target71 - Anguish - damage and decreases wistoo weak as not even catching auto attack dmg.WIS debuff means less important to any class as ineffective way of decreasing resist.Unless fixing WIS as for status means more than status only for power pool for some class, WIS as for status should be made into pure resist reduction by amount than raising resist which can is easier to raise by gear than status with current itemization.Or make WIS as % magical dmg reducer so debuffing WIS is effective way as reducing pure resist amount.71 - Doom Rays - AE damage and dispell71 - Pariah's Strike - damage and damage over timeway too weak than auto attack72 - Drain Might - decrease target STR, increase caster STR72 - Insinuate -hate gain with hate gain/damage over timeneed more base hate increase and efficent,or make hate over time part much higher as giving much better sustain hate amount than other class as draw back of hate over time72 - Mana Siege - Decreases power of target, increases power of castercast time too long for non dmg utlity for tanking, should be merged into something else72 - Stance: Fiendish Circle - increases wis, defense and mit, decreases meleeDefensive stance should raise great amount of SK's focus as well as physical dmg reduction while castingsince WIS as stats offers nothing to many tank as they rather use "resist gear" than raise "WIS" for resist,better make WIS part changed into 20% all magical dmg reduction than rasing WIS for resist.*(or fix WIS as % magical dmg reduction as for status)73 - Lucan's Leadership - increases group STA and spell damagesince SK base dmg for spell currently are set too low, it's too easy to cap to 50% limit.better make this spell into dmg raise for base dmg than some buff which count into 50% limit, and add spell critial as well.73 - Stance: Lucan's Sword -increases int and melee, decreases defenseOffensive stance offers fix +amount base dmg raise (than adding % to low base dmg of SK spells/CA, which would be very low boost) which won't get counted into 50% limitationdouble attack, critial spell/melee 73 - Donation of Armament - transfer own mitigation to otherremove restriction of using own mitigationSK's role is still tanking, giving up own mitigation making no role tank74 - Death Touch - damage 15min recastif SK is using harm touch line as method of damage, that SK probably need more help on other area for his/her dps.I believe most SK's main use of this line is snap aggro like rescue. Since this isn't life saving utility, 15min recast is too long compared to paladin's.Make it 5min recast and add effect like hate position +1 or +2.While wiz can nuke 20,000 dmg one shot and scout can do 6,000 dmg per second, 4000-8000 dmg every 15min is not going to be used as dmg source but snap hate utility. Keep this spell as par to other class dps is rather hard task and not main role of SK.Should adjust as snap aggro utility as shorter reuse time as well as matching effect (like tap effect beside can be done by AA).74 - Lucan's Boot - damage and knockdowntoo weak than auto attack74 - Tap Arteries - aoe damage and healcast time is too long as 2sec. when SK uses this that means SK is getting hit by multiple mob.Trying to cast 2sec and getting hit by multiple mob is already bad chance of finishing cast.Unless SK's base focus is always double high than current like suggested defensive stance, should make shorter cast time.75 - Crimson Circle - aoe damage and damage over timecast time too long for very weak AoE DoT. should make it to less than 1sec to cast76 - Chastisement - hate gain and decreases mithate amount is low for how much T8 dpsers can do76 - Relentless Hunger - Group BUFF, 8% chance for damage and healproc dmg amount and heal amount isn't even par to content at T8 alreadyshould scale to encounter incomming dmg76 - Shadow Coil - damage over time77 - Innoruuk's Caress - BUFF, hate gain, damage shieldhate amount is set way too low as for utility for SK holding hateshould raise MUCH more hate amount to be hate utility77 - Siphon Strike - damage and healtap amount need to scale to contents mob's dmg.77 - Unholy Arms - BUFF life tap Proc78 - Contagion - single DoT, spread to 2 new targets upon target's death while DoT is still on78 - Grave Sacrament - summons temporary pettypical waste of cast time spell currently2.0sec is too long to waste for summoning instant dead petpet should not eat any dmg by riposte or aoe dmg, and should have same hit rate from any direction pet is meleeing from78 - Pain Wrath - damage and snare79 - Hateful Slam - shield require, damage, hate gain, knockdown79 - Life Pact - reactive tap wardtap amount need to be more par to % of incomming dmg79 - Malice - damagedmg amount is getting very hard to compete with auto attack dmg80 - Bloodletter - prevents Death by sacrificing health from your allies to restore you to full health. (Still being tweaked)80 - Painful Aura - aoe damage and damage over time80 - Siphon Vitae -damage and healtap amount need to be more par to % of incomming dmg80 - Devouring Mist - decreases AC of group encounter and adding mitigaton to SK while debuffed mobs are still alivesince diminishing curve of mitigation, siphoning mitigation isn't good design.better make it %dmg reduction/increase type debuff/buff

Pitt Hammerfi

08-24-2008, 10:42 PM

OK this is my take on all spells, i have all masters and raid lots. 58-Death March - Fine, However the increase in everyone elses DPS has made this a bit weaker in terms of generating aggro.60-Devious Evasion - Fine63-Mortal Embrace - Fine71 - Anguish - Waste of time, wis debuff is useless71 - Doom Rays - Very rarely strips debuffs off mobs, decent AE71 - Pariah's Strike - Total waste of time even casting this72 - Drain Might - Resists quite often, having to recast it multiple times on orange mobs wastes alot of time72 - Insinuate - A bit weak72 - Mana Siege - lol worthless, we have items that genrate more mana72 - Stance: Fiendish Circle - Should add 7% riposte instead of wisdom73 - Lucan's Leadership - Bring back raid wide stamina, or str/stam.73 - Stance: Lucan's Sword - Fine73 - Donation of Armament - Fine74 - Death Touch - lol 74 - Lucan's Boot - Pretty weak, but good cast time74 - Tap Arteries - Fine, but cast time is a bit long75 - Crimson Circle - Cast time way too long, Dmg is mediocre76 - Chastisement - Fine76 - Relentless Hunger - Fine76 - Shadow Coil - Weak77 - Innoruuk's Caress - Useless spell upgrade amounts on it please77 - Siphon Strike - Weak77 - Unholy Arms - Fine78 - Contagion - Bit weak but OK78 - Grave Sacrament - Make pet do slightly more damage78 - Pain Wrath - Slow cast, average dmg meh it used to be a good spell, nowadays not so good.79 - Hateful Slam - Fine, taunt is a bit weak79 - Life Pact - Fine79 - Malice - Useless, too weak80 - Bloodletter - best spell ever80 - Painful Aura - Fine spell, use it all the time.80 - Siphon Vitae - Fine spell80 - Devouring Mist - Fine spell, but resists alot, i would make it a set amount and a smaller amount for each mob after, that way the mit return would be usefull on single mobs.

Nero

08-28-2008, 08:20 AM

(1)Snap AggroShadowknight and other fighters except for Guardian and Paladin can do nothing to Hate Wipe which some mobs use in RoK raid.Guardian can use Reinforcement.Paladin can use Holy Ground.But other fighters except for Guardian and Paladin can do nothing to Hate Wipe which is unreasonable script.So, I want to suggest.Add snap aggro like Reinforcement or Holy Ground to Death March .Add snap aggro to Innoruuk's Caress.(2)Class BalanceI think at least the following states as a balance.Survivability(in combat with Epic)(Guardian)Mitigation + Avoidance + Stoneskin = (Shadowknight)Lifetap + Reactive Heal("Life Pact" )Aggro Management(Guardian)"Reinforcement" + "Hold the Aggression" + High DPS= (Shadowknight)Boost of taunt + Upgrade of "Death March" to T8(Recast, Efficacy, Duration of "On the March" and so on)DPS(Guardian)Guardian with STA line = (Shadowknight)Boost of DPS of spells and CAs of SK + Improvement of "Death Touch"(Recast, Amount of Damage, and any Special effect like snap aggro)But when SK comes up with Guardian in Aggro Management, is there any way to handle with Hate Wipe?Guardian will be overpowered as long as Hate Wipe exists.

MirageKnight

08-31-2008, 04:03 PM

As for set piece....Most SK set piece effect is nothing related to SK's primary role : TANKNone of set piece SK has ever got help this role.(unless an SK want to wear 6 for Bloodletter trigger +1, I think this is prety much it for decent set piece effect)Set effect should be more relative to class role.Tap amount raise.Trigger amount raise + base amount of tap should be greatly increased to match raid content.Since SK missing any incomming dmg reduction and taps are not contested to incomming dmg SK is getting,should have more equipement than warriors which adds more tanking survibility.

Nero

09-01-2008, 07:15 AM

Suggestions(1)New SpellBlood Oath = Stone Skin + Reflect DamageThe caster deauthorizes the given damage and further reflects the given damage to the mob in 10 seconds.This spell has a merit that scales naturally by the types of the mob(solo, heroic, and epic).Maybe, overpowered. But this curse spell fits SK's image.(2)New Spell 2Grim Reaper FormNecromancer can transform to Lich. I thought up Grim Reaper as the Lich of Necromancer which fits SK.When SK transform to Grim Reaper, SK is losing 1% of max HP per 6 seconds like Reaver.In Grim Reaper Form, the almost all abilities of SK increase. Melee crit, double attack, haste, spell mod, spell crit, vs mental, mitigation, block, parry, aggression, STR, STA, AGI, WIS, INT, even the amount of lifetap and so on.The amount of the increase of the abilities rely on quality of spell. Adept I = 3%. Adept III = 6%. Master I = 10%.Maybe, this is overpowered, too.(3)Divine AuraGet rid of the limit of "under 50% of max HP" of Divine Aura, which is AA of crusader.(4)ItemizationSK need the gear for only SK. Maybe, Paladin also need the gear for only Paladin.Though Guardian need only STR, SK need STR and INT. So, consequently, SK need STR, STA, AGI, INT. Not only STR, STA, AGI.And SK need defensive status. +Parry, +Block, Avoidance, Riposte, Reduction of damage, Ward, Stone Skin, enhancement of lifetap and so on.(5)Bloodletter(a)Bloodletter should not be ripped off by mob's debuff.If Bloodletter can be ripped off, for what does it exist?Bloodletter can be ripped off easily now.Fix it.(b)Bloodletter should have triggers more than 2.It has 1 trigger now.But 1 trigger is so weak.Bloodletter has been nerfed very much.(6)Class BalanceI think at least the following states as a balance.Survivability(in combat with Epic)(Guardian)Mitigation + Avoidance + Stoneskin = (Shadowknight)Lifetap + Reactive Heal("Life Pact" )Off course, with the frequent interrupts of SK's spells in mind.Aggro Management(Guardian)"Reinforcement" + "Hold the Aggression" + High DPS= (Shadowknight)Boost of taunt + Upgrade of "Death March" to T8(Recast, Efficacy, Duration of "On the March" and so on)DPS(Guardian)Guardian with STA line = (Shadowknight)Boost of DPS of spells and CAs of SK + Improvement of "Death Touch"(Recast, Amount of Damage, and any Special effect like snap aggro)Again, with the frequent interrupts of SK's spells in mind.Just a thought.

Nero

03-28-2009, 04:42 PM

I'm sorry for my beating a dead horse.But I felt that I must start in this thread.Here are my suggestions/problems about SK.A. keep alive(1)survivabilitySK has low HP, low mitigation and low avoidance compared to Warrior.Lifetap have compensated this weakness for a long time.But more stronger a mob becomes, less useful lifetap becomes.Lifetap can hardly help when an epic mob inflicts over 10000 damage in one hit easily in raid.For what does 500-700 lifetap help in raid?There must be good ways to improve lifetaps.For example, MirageKnight wrote like the following.<blockquote>As for survivability, the fact that lifetaps can't compensate to scale to incomming damage still hurts as SK's tanking survivability.idea 1) since SK's characteristic of draining/weakening mob to get upperhand for tanking, debuffing mob's resist raise the tap's effectiveness.idea 2) like Nero's said, making all CA/spell to have tap part, when defensive.idea 3) raise damage part of tap, reduce heal part during offensive, increase heal part of tap, reduce damage part during defensive stance.Even with combining above suggested ideas, tap probably not compensate enough to high damage hitter from group mobs to raid mobs but usually in raid mob should be more debuffed than group situations which might get some help by idea 1.</blockquote>(2)Coping process with spike damageDivine Aura and Shadowknight's Furor are great and nice.Hateful Respite is good, too.But only one stoneskin of Hateful Respite seems to be a little bit weak.How about make Hateful Respite have 3 stoneskin?(3)Damage reduction of mythicalOnly SK's mythical has no damage reduction.Touch of Death(Will absorb physical attacks when the amount is greater than 60% of the targets maximum health) is a joke.We need at least 5% damage reduction.B. hold aggro(1)single-target hold aggroCurrent SK seems to have no problem except for epic named.(2)AoE hold aggroCurrent SK seems to be good at it.(3)snap aggro: the ability to increase the hate position instantly for emergency responseSK has only Grave Sacrament, which increases SK's hate position in only 33%, not 100%, which is bugged and don't increase SK's hate position.Guardian has Reinforcement. Berserker has Insolence with their mythical. Paladin has Holy Ground. But Shadowknight has only Grave Sacrament which is a weak snap aggro.Touch of Death of SK's mythical may be nice.But 6 mins of recast is a joke.C. misc(1)TSO AAExcept for some AA, SK's TSO AA are neither good nor nice.Malevolent Tormenting? Why don't increase the amount of hate of Death March?Cavalier's Call? What merit does it have by increasing only stamina?(2)BloodletterSK can't cast Bloodletter in combat.Recast time is very long.More than 2 SKs can't cast Bloodletter at the same time in raid.

Nero

04-04-2009, 08:45 PM

How about adding one AA which improves Hateful Respite(EoF AA), that is to say, increases one trigger of stoneskin per two achievement points, and increases the amount of heal, damage and threat per one achievement point instead of Malevolent Tormenting(Shadows AA)?

Nero

05-07-2009, 05:25 PM

Achievement Abilities which I want to see.Enhance: Hateful RespiteIt increases number of times of stoneskin.Enhance: ReaverIt increases the amount of heal and spell damage.Enhance: Pool of BloodIt increases the amount of unconscious HP.Enhance: Divine AuraIt erases the requirement of "under 50% of HP" and increases the time of Divine Aura.Enhance: Death MarchIt changes Death March to raid wide spell, increases the time of "On The March", and increases the amount of hate of Death March.Enhance: BloodletterIt increases the trigger of Bloodletter.I want to see these AAs in the next expansion.

Shareana

05-09-2009, 12:30 PM

Let's keep the discussion on topic....

Nero

05-14-2009, 09:28 PM

T10 version of Death March in next expansion.Stronger effects, more hate/threat, and longer duration of "on the march".I would like Death March to be enhanced by AA.For example, making Death March a raid wide buff.

Bruener

05-15-2009, 11:03 AM

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>T10 version of Death March in next expansion.Stronger effects, more hate/threat, and longer duration of "on the march".I would like Death March to be enhanced by AA.For example, making Death March a raid wide buff.</blockquote>Death March is definitely due for an upgrade. The benefits of On The March right now just are meh. Casting speed is being capped easily. +DPS mod is being capped easily. Immunitites are all over the place for control effects. And the hate it generates is very small compared to what it used to do.I would like to see Death March upgrade include +crit mods and base damage along with what it currently has. Raid-wide would be nice. I do not think it would be OP'd if Death March was raid-wide as long as On the March only proc'd for the group that had the death blow, with the initial On the March proc for the SK group.

goryf

09-14-2009, 01:24 PM

Alright. I haven't read anyother post here cause I do not want to be tempted to comment on them. This is just my post with what I would like to see for a SK.An SK if a cross breed between a fighter and a necro ( this is what I thought at first anyways). True we share a fraction of how the nec does DD but what we use to have and what they took away from use made that relation more evident. A servicable pet. There are plenty of tanks out there that can get the job doen and with that in mind a decent SK can do the same. A return of the pet though I believe will give us SK's something that we can be proud that it set's us apart.I would say the main reason why I ask for our skinny friend to return to our sides is really just so we can pet pull. Unless I am mistaken ( and I will be the first to admite I do not even come close to knowing everything about all classes or even just other tanks as the SK has alway been #1 in my heart) but is there a tank that has the inate ability to call a pet? Sure there is gear that does it for you but..... not the same. To be an MT with a pet that will bring the mob to you would set the SK apart and make it like no other. The pet doesn't have to be very powerful either. Maybe with a half decent melee dps or just a few life taps of it's own ( evidence that it is a SK pet)(not to much). One thing that would really help keep the "Nerf SK's, they are OP" talk is if the pet had the option to assist a toon or the SK's choice and produces a nice hate xfer. No more complaining the the SK keep stealing agro. That's really all it needs to be to be a nice addition to the SK.I would say make it an AA option to getting the pet would be nice. Has to have X amount of AA spent to be able to get it. Maybe 2-3 AA points to help upgrade the pet, but not to far.Of course there are other things I can thing of, it's just this is on the top of my list and I would like to see what others think.