What's the new thinking with Monk?

[Halato]

I've been trying to absorb some Monk information but I read a lot of conflicting ideas.  I can't tell what's out-dated and what's true for the game in its current state.I've read you can't really go bare-fisted anymore since the master-craft stuff is just better... and I've read that monks should just use the strength tree to level (but that's all bare fisted).I've heard we shouldn't use a staff, but we have an entire AA line seemingly dedicated to it?No one really talks about dual wielding batons, or quarterstaves or whatever... how does that play out?Thanks in advance for any thoughts.I would normally just goof around and experiment, but I'm still new enough to the game that I can't afford to respec often.

[Rashnic]

I am trying to figure this out as well. There is alot of conflicting info out there since the "big patch" I think that patch happened in 2006? So i try to look for info from 07 and up...but then again I don't really know if that is correct or not.Right now I am using the strength tree(4/4/8/3) bare-handed. I am lvl 41 atm and I average about 100 a hit with high's being around 240ish. I don't know if that is good or not.

[Ocello]

STR line and going barehanded go hand in hand; it's only viable if you take teh STR line. And tbh I found that it is not a bad way to play up to about lvl 70. At 70 you can equip a lot of fabled dual-wield weapons that kill the STR line, or if you aren't a raider you can get the Bo of Flowing Blood from Unrest, which is a very nice 2-handed staff. We don't have weapon requirements anymore for our AA trees, but I found that using a bo staff is not only super cool from a looks standpoint, but they can be very viable weapons as well. You can get a upgrade for the BoFB from the Kylong Plains quests that end with you killing a named mob in Karnor's Castle, this quest will net you the Sampan Fighting Baton which is very nice. Then at 80 you can get the Venomous Chitin Bo from the Anaphylaxis quest in Jarsath Waste (from killing the scorpion guy in Maidens' Chamber). It's really all about your playstyle tbh...if you like barehand, go barehand. If you like the staves, use those. Or if you like having two weapons, go that route. I've seen nothing that compares comparable weapons (clearly fabled dual-wield weapons will own the BoFB or SFB), I only speak from my own experience.

[Halato]

Thanks for the advice, Kamaala.It's just very confusing trying to find info about EQ2 right now... the FAQs on most of these boards are out of date and many have busted/dead links in them. The other part that makes things confusing are things like this:From the monk FAQ stickied on this board:Are bare fists an option?No, not really. Not for monks anyway. There are fist weapons that give the bare fisted look though.So I get curious, check out the thread date... 2005. Then I get curious and check out the the link date.... Updated: 1/4/2006.I'd say at this point they should just remove the sticky or it would be even greater if a veteran player would re-write it.

[Beausun76]

<cite>Halato wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for the advice, Kamaala.It's just very confusing trying to find info about EQ2 right now... the FAQs on most of these boards are out of date and many have busted/dead links in them. The other part that makes things confusing are things like this:From the monk FAQ stickied on this board:Are bare fists an option?No, not really. Not for monks anyway. There are fist weapons that give the bare fisted look though.So I get curious, check out the thread date... 2005. Then I get curious and check out the the link date.... Updated: 1/4/2006.I'd say at this point they should just remove the sticky or it would be even greater if a veteran player would re-write it.The </blockquote>The STR AA line is perfectly fine lower levels. I am doing 4/4/7 and with TD gear bare fisted with as many Adepts skills as I could find. I can auto attack most stuff with all my haste Buffs up if I want to.It's prefectly viable and from what I hear it's feasible to stay with baregists until 70ish. For once I like not having to make sure my weapons are out of date. my fists are perfect atm.

[Dige]

<p>Leveling str and barefisted is not a good idea, at least for the first 30 levels. Your dw does way more dmg with the wraps, not to mention if it procs gleam. LEveling str is definitely not the way to go. If you can get fistwraps with procs on them, you will out dps the str barefisted method by a huge amount. I leveled 2 monks testing this. Str is not a good idea, spend a little time crafting some fistwraps, pristine with gleam or w/e.</p>

[Beausun76]

You dont happen to have a parser or Screen shot showing the dmg at which levels? I would be very interested in seeing numbers so I could compare them to mine.I'll fight some even level mobs today and come back with the combat log and maybe a few of you can tell me if I am not doing enough dmg.I found and heard from multiple sources that Str 4-4-8 was the way to go for the good portion of a Monk's soloing caree and it doesnt seem all that bad so far...<span style="color: #999999;"><span style="color: #333333;"><span style="color: #ff9900;"></span></span></span><span style="color: #0000ff;"><span style="color: #b3b54a;">Here is what I found posted on Wiki that include 2 variants of the Str Solo builds:Solo BuildsStr/Int (bare-handed)For best effect, Str 4/4/8 needs to be done before anything else in this build.    Strength Line: 4/4/8/8 (unblockable crushing debuff, 96% Double attack with bare-fists, save money on weapons, +5% riposte)     Intelligence Line: 4/4/8/7/2 (+18.1% crits, +2.205% more avoidance, last ability comes in real handy when soloing Heroics)  Str/Wis/Int (bare-handed)For best effect, Str 4/4/8 needs to be done before anything else in this build. Crane Flock looks scarier than it probably is. It's range is fairly limited (similar to striking cobra).    Strength Line: 4/4/8/1 (unblockable crushing debuff CA, 96% Double attack with bare-fists, save money on weapons, +1.5% riposte)     Wisdom Line: 4/4/8 (AOE knockdown CA, toggleable AOE Dmg Proc with very limited range)     Intelligence Line: 4/4/8 (+18.1% crits to auto-attack and CAs)General Observations Strength Line (Tiger Sifu)The monk Strength line is hard to ignore for the early monk career. Using the Strength line, you can go without weapons for most of your life. Other lines are useful depending on your play style. If you use weapons, most of the Strength line is not going to be useful to you, so it's skippable.    Pressure Point - Nice unblockable melee attack that debuffs versus crushing. Only works bare-fisted (no weapon equipped), which is also crushing damage.     Relentless Punches - Makes bare-fisted (no weapon equipped) attack double-attack. Eight (<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> points is this gives 96% Double Attack and a DPS increase. It is generally said that the damage on bare fists with 8 points in this is roughly equivalent to a Legendary weapon of the same level, without stat bonuses of course. If someone can provide stats here, that would be nice.     Claw Reversal - With 8 points, this gives a 5% chance to riposte (or parry if it's not in a 90 degree arc in front of you) melee attacks. The wording of this ability seems to indicate that you get a 5% chance to riposte versus a +5 riposte (which would only increase Avoidance by 0.75%). Needs testing and clarification. </span></span>

[Dige]

The only reason people say that is because if you factor in cutting corners such as buying weapons, sure its doable, but if you get the MC pristine weaps with proc on them, which doesnt take long to do, you will out damage the str line by a huge amount.

[Mirrian]

The questions so far seem to be centered around the brawler tree, what about the monk tree? What lines are good there, I was thinking the combos line looked pretty good.

[Svann]

Why fist wraps?  Arent slow weapons better than fast weapons?

[Editedmind]

<cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why fist wraps? Arent slow weapons better than fast weapons?</blockquote>Nope. It's just harder to miss the interval with a slow weapon, so you don't lose as much DPS when you mindlessly mash combat arts, and you gain a much higher benefit from hasting slow weapons than you do with quick weapons.

[Svann]

<cite>Editedmind wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why fist wraps? Arent slow weapons better than fast weapons?</blockquote>Nope. It's just harder to miss the interval with a slow weapon, so you don't lose as much DPS when you mindlessly mash combat arts, and you gain a much higher benefit from hasting slow weapons than you do with quick weapons.</blockquote>I dont think I understand the point you just made.  You say you gain much higher benefit from hasting slow weapons than fast weapons.  So that would make what I said true, wouldnt it?  Why would you choose fist wraps then?  Id think if you werent going barefisted then you would want the slowest weapons for less conflict between ca and auto, and less ripostes against you.

[githyanki]

<p>Ok to try to answer some of these questions let me cover some old ground first.   The str aa line is good CHEAP way to lvl up if you dont want to buy weapons at every tier and up to about your mid low 60's is not a bad way to go.   About 2 years ago when i was bringing up my monk i used it till i got the tradable junk fabled weapons from kos raid zones.    Now they might be kind of hard to find on the broker or even going thru on pickup raids and being lucky in labs and what not.    But with procs from mastercrafted and cheap adorns plus stats on your duel wields using fists only benefits you by being cheap.   Damage will be pretty close from str line or mastercrafted duel wields ...and if you get a good string of crits and double attacks you will see yourself ashamed of the str line.</p><p>As far as damage goes bare fisting is ok till you get legendary weapons of your tier.   Using a 2 handed weapon does not compare to decent legendary duel wielding of your tier and pales next to fabled weapons of your tier.    to give you a rough idea using my fabled epic and the baton from pr i avg a bout 1900ish in offensive.   Using the 130 something DR weapon from temple off the guy after dark fight i hit about 1500ish at max and usually around 1300 on the training wall in jungle.   With legendary weapons before i hit 80 ....think they where the 4 second delay ones you see on broker all the time...i would hit about 1500 maybe 1600 in offensive.    Someone else probably has parses to show if you like.   </p><p>Now using a high delay weapon is all about having a very high top end hit available on your weapons.   With offensive and your hp lowering every few seconds buff running dropping a 4 second or 2.5 duel wielding to 2.5 and 1.5 is not only easy but expected at higher lvls.   To pick a weapon look for the highest possible higher limit on the damage range listed and pick weapon delays that are the same so you wont miss swings with the primary or off hand as you time your ca's in between hits.    That should get you in the neighborhood of knowing what is what from the old faq's i think.    </p><p>Any questions throw em up and i'll try to give you an answer.    </p>

[Halato]

What are your thoughts on Dieties?

[githyanki]

Well my guild is still trying to get me to grab tribunal for the one tank damage to heal miracle he has but i still have bristlebane.   I am in a mild raiding guild and we are still stuck on the overking.   To give you an idea of where i'm coming from.   Maybe later on in vp i'll switch over but most of the time if i have a scripted off tank job tsunami self wards root and stun stance will get me thru.   Superior riposti is nice for death touches and what not but all depends on your play style.   If you choose to not tank....my personal hate for other monks....then choose something fluffy.   I am still with bristlebane even though i never use the cloak anymore it matches my chest tatoo( i'm a barbarian).    I tank in rok instances just fine without using miracles so all up to your personal taste.   

[Beausun76]

Since we aree on the subject of Dieties, is there anything wrong with Mithaniel Marr if I want to MT and OT? He seems to offer a lot of Def bonuses like extra parry and def.

[Halato]

Ok, Strength is cheaper but probably not as good as another leveling build if you can afford MC weapons then... what's a better build to level with if I can get the MC weapons crafted for me?

[Beausun76]

Here's the problem. These forums arent as active as I would have thought and a lot of the information that is stickied or found on the web is out of date. 90% of the Monk information I have found states that fists rock until the higher levels if u simply go Str 4 4 8. Now. I'm not sure if the folks here aretaking into account whether you are leveling in TD or not, because the loot there is 5x better than anything you will ever find. I brought my Monk there and with all the +str, +agi, +sta equipment and what not, i had no issues leveling or coming close to dying. The only time I used a weapon was when I didnt have the Double attack spec. Once I got that, I dropped what I had, (There werent any good monk weapon rewards on TD 1-20...mostly 2 handed blunts). At lvl 23 I have Str 4-4-8 and I can take down 3 Blue mobs in under 10 Seconds or 2 whites to about half health or more depending on what CA's I hit.There is nothing wrong with the Str line IMHO and it can be very fun to see all your double attacks going off on eah hit. There is nothing wrong with the Str line at the early levels. Why bother trying to upkeep dual weilding weapons when  your fists will double attack over 90% of the time and I believe your CA's are eligible for double attacks as well.Then around 40+ if you see some really good weapons with nice stats, do a respec.I'm on the AB server and MC items are not cheap and neither are the rare resources.To sum it up, at my current lvl my barehands are rocking and my gear from the TD area is solid. Since I am a Scholar I have been able to upgrade most of my CA's to Adept III.

[githyanki]

<p>In my opinion there are only a few good options for a balanced monk setup.   Like it or not we are a tank and can benefit a guild quite a bit by being one.    But when you are not picking up adds or stepping up if the mt goes down in a raid you still have to dps like a semi afk brigand.   So i've banged around alot on different setups and found one that is a nice balance between dps and tanking.  </p><p>The stamina line is a waste imo because the end ablity is nice but to get it you get to wade thru lots of fluff.    Mantis leap is really nice though if you pvp and i've heard lots of monks take that line on red servers.   Our uncontested avoidance is very small and even though you would think that adding to that makes a difference.....overall a different line makes more sense and you get more out of it.   You will notice that monks are the kings of green con tanking....except for a berserker maybe.    But we really have to start working on blues and up because our avoidance gets bypassed and we get big spikes of damage compared to a miti/plate tank.   So stamina line is out for little real benefit except being able to warp to your scout pvp peep.</p><p>I like the int line for several reasons.    The end ability in the line is great for plowing thru solo critters when under 30 percent health...think rok or solo quest crap lvling up.   Eagle spin is very situational but can save your butt if used right in a group and very cool when soloing.    Also turning the mob means that you have a better chance for devastation fist to hit.    IE the mob has fewer defensive things to stop you hitting them.   18.1 percent melee crit should be enough reason for anybody for eagles fury.   Parry is a solid defensive skill that works better then our avoidance and more consistently according to my parses vs white and up mobs.  </p><p>Wisdom line is my other tree i've taken to the bottom.   Crane sweep and crane twirl are both useful as a dps bump and also agro control for multi encounters when tanking.   Monks are great at one mob being locked down but we really dont have the skills as other tanks for controlling large numbers of critters.   So aoe damage is as good as taunting and makes you look like a hero on the parse.  Crane growth is one of the things monks need to help deal with damage spikes caused by our low miti and small uncontested avoidance.   The more health you have the more spikes you can take.  Crane flock is by far our biggest dps ability besides the situational use of devastation fist.   It helps you solo easier when under 30 percent pop tsunami and crane flock and with the int line you will kill anything.    The auto riposti and then double attacking using that combo will wow you the first time you do it.   Also crane flock helps you pick up surprise adds when tanking and locks down multi encounters thru dps....keeps the squishies alive and the healers happy.</p><p>After i hit 80 i picked up the agility line for a few reasons over stamina.   For one i've already trashed the stamina line and its only good once you get far down it...And after picking up int and wis i didn't have enough points to spend on it.    But you will notice as you lvl that you will spend alot of time waiting for ca's to become active again.   If you are just auto attacking and not casting between hits then you are leaving dps on the table.  Baton flurry and ambidexterity are such a huge change when i picked it i felt stupid for not doing it before.    My dps went up almost a third and in raids with a inquis and dirge i can compete with swashies brigs and manaburning wizzies on occasion.    </p><p>Now this is just my opinion but every other setup i've tried lacks somewhere and this is the most balanced i can get between dps and tanking.   Other people will tell you different i'm sure but i encourage you to go out get  a parser and see for yourself.   Try tanking and see if it makes a difference then solo etc etc.   Test it ...try it....and good luck to you all.  </p>

[Editedmind]

<cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Editedmind wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why fist wraps? Arent slow weapons better than fast weapons?</blockquote>Nope. It's just harder to miss the interval with a slow weapon, so you don't lose as much DPS when you mindlessly mash combat arts, and you gain a much higher benefit from hasting slow weapons than you do with quick weapons.</blockquote>I dont think I understand the point you just made. You say you gain much higher benefit from hasting slow weapons than fast weapons. So that would make what I said true, wouldnt it? Why would you choose fist wraps then? Id think if you werent going barefisted then you would want the slowest weapons for less conflict between ca and auto, and less ripostes against you.</blockquote>Nope, see. . . Quick weapons hit more often than slow weapons, every time, that's why you still haste slow weapons. The thing is, most people just like to wack-a-mole as soon as their combat arts light up, which isn't bad, but it doesn't make other approaches any less valid. If you have a couple of procs you want to go off more often, or want to increase you chances to do critical or double attack, taking a quick weapon that hits twice as fast as a slow weapon will increase your chances twice as much.It's like the argument of party balance. . . You get people who don't leave the harbour without a healer, and others who don't mind rolling with pure DPS groups. In the end, it's not that anybody is wrong, both camps have valid points. It's just a matter of opinion.

[Svann]

<cite>Editedmind wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Editedmind wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why fist wraps? Arent slow weapons better than fast weapons?</blockquote>Nope. It's just harder to miss the interval with a slow weapon, so you don't lose as much DPS when you mindlessly mash combat arts, and you gain a much higher benefit from hasting slow weapons than you do with quick weapons.</blockquote>I dont think I understand the point you just made. You say you gain much higher benefit from hasting slow weapons than fast weapons. So that would make what I said true, wouldnt it? Why would you choose fist wraps then? Id think if you werent going barefisted then you would want the slowest weapons for less conflict between ca and auto, and less ripostes against you.</blockquote>Nope, see. . . Quick weapons hit more often than slow weapons, every time, that's why you still haste slow weapons. The thing is, most people just like to wack-a-mole as soon as their combat arts light up, which isn't bad, but it doesn't make other approaches any less valid. If you have a couple of procs you want to go off more often, or want to increase you chances to do critical or double attack, taking a quick weapon that hits twice as fast as a slow weapon will increase your chances twice as much.It's like the argument of party balance. . . You get people who don't leave the harbour without a healer, and others who don't mind rolling with pure DPS groups. In the end, it's not that anybody is wrong, both camps have valid points. It's just a matter of opinion.</blockquote><p>Ok still trying to understand.1.  You say quick weapons hit more often than slow weapons but I dont see how that is an advantage since they also hit for less.  Hitting twice as often for half the damage is a wash.  Unless you are just saying it is not a disadvantage?</p><p>2.  You say that quick weapons give you more chance to proc, but I think that I read that all procs (except rogue poison) are normalized so that they go off the same number of times per minute for slow or fast weapons.  Am I right?</p><p>3. You say that quick weapons give more chance to crit or double attack but I think that as with point #1 is a wash since they also hit for less.  In fact, I think you may get less crit damage for fast weapons since crit damage is dependent not just on the damage average but also I read that it is dependant on the damage range (max minus min).  A larger damage range gives better overall crit damage.  With 2 weapons,  the one that is 100-200 will crit for higher average dps than the one that is 125-175 even though they both have same average damage and even if they are both the same delay.</p><p> I can go with the "everyone has their own likes and dislikes" if we are saying that they are equal, but I dont see a reason why fast weapons could be said to be better as I think was implied earlier in the thread.  In the game in general it is widely accepted that slow weapons are superior due to the wider damage range giving better crit dps.  But here in the monk forum there seems to be some difference of opinion.  I guess Im wondering if there is some monk specific mechanic that accounts for that difference.  Is there a monk proc or crit that is not normalized to be the same frequency for fast or slow weapons?</p>

[x0rtrun]

<cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Editedmind wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Editedmind wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why fist wraps? Arent slow weapons better than fast weapons?</blockquote>Nope. It's just harder to miss the interval with a slow weapon, so you don't lose as much DPS when you mindlessly mash combat arts, and you gain a much higher benefit from hasting slow weapons than you do with quick weapons.</blockquote>I dont think I understand the point you just made. You say you gain much higher benefit from hasting slow weapons than fast weapons. So that would make what I said true, wouldnt it? Why would you choose fist wraps then? Id think if you werent going barefisted then you would want the slowest weapons for less conflict between ca and auto, and less ripostes against you.</blockquote>Nope, see. . . Quick weapons hit more often than slow weapons, every time, that's why you still haste slow weapons. The thing is, most people just like to wack-a-mole as soon as their combat arts light up, which isn't bad, but it doesn't make other approaches any less valid. If you have a couple of procs you want to go off more often, or want to increase you chances to do critical or double attack, taking a quick weapon that hits twice as fast as a slow weapon will increase your chances twice as much.It's like the argument of party balance. . . You get people who don't leave the harbour without a healer, and others who don't mind rolling with pure DPS groups. In the end, it's not that anybody is wrong, both camps have valid points. It's just a matter of opinion.</blockquote><p>Ok still trying to understand.1. You say quick weapons hit more often than slow weapons but I dont see how that is an advantage since they also hit for less. Hitting twice as often for half the damage is a wash. Unless you are just saying it is not a disadvantage?</p><p>2. You say that quick weapons give you more chance to proc, but I think that I read that all procs (except rogue poison) are normalized so that they go off the same number of times per minute for slow or fast weapons. Am I right?</p><p>3. You say that quick weapons give more chance to crit or double attack but I think that as with point #1 is a wash since they also hit for less. In fact, I think you may get less crit damage for fast weapons since crit damage is dependent not just on the damage average but also I read that it is dependant on the damage range (max minus min). A larger damage range gives better overall crit damage. With 2 weapons, the one that is 100-200 will crit for higher average dps than the one that is 125-175 even though they both have same average damage and even if they are both the same delay.</p><p> I can go with the "everyone has their own likes and dislikes" if we are saying that they are equal, but I dont see a reason why fast weapons could be said to be better as I think was implied earlier in the thread. In the game in general it is widely accepted that slow weapons are superior due to the wider damage range giving better crit dps. But here in the monk forum there seems to be some difference of opinion. I guess Im wondering if there is some monk specific mechanic that accounts for that difference. Is there a monk proc or crit that is not normalized to be the same frequency for fast or slow weapons?</p></blockquote>Editedmind is incorrect with regards to procs and crits. Sorry.1. Slow weapons and fast weapons can be compared by their damage rating. A fast weapon that hits for 10-20 with a 2 second delay has the same damage rating as a weapon that hits for 25-35 but has a 4 second delay. (10+20)/2=15 DR and (25+35)/4=15 DR. Damage Rating isn't perfect, but it's a loose guide on the effectiveness of a weapons auto-attack damage.2. Proc rate is normalized. If a weapon says it will proc 1.3 times per minute, that's how often it will proc regardless of what your actual delay is.3. The wider damage spread usually found on slower weapons will benefit more from crits, because a crit is going to be at least the max damage of your weapon.A longer delay is generally going to work out better for a couple reasons. In addition to those mentioned above, A longer delay will interfere less with CA casting. In other words, you'll have more chances to cast CAs between your auto-attack swings. It's also a good idea to find weapons with equal delays so they both swing at the same time. It'll make timing CAs between auto attack swings that much easier.

[Junaru]

<cite>x0rtrunks wrote:</cite><blockquote> A longer delay is generally going to work out better for a couple reasons. In addition to those mentioned above, A longer delay will interfere less with CA casting. In other words, you'll have more chances to cast CAs between your auto-attack swings. It's also a good idea to find weapons with equal delays so they both swing at the same time. It'll make timing CAs between auto attack swings that much easier.</blockquote> I will agree a longer delay weapon will work out better for crits as stated but the point about it helping on CA's I don't. First off I'm a firm believe is using 2.5s delay weapons since it matches the epic and you might as well get uses to the delay but thats besides the point. With a 2.5s delay weapon the right AA's you can make it so you can spam you CA's and get two CA's per auto attack and never miss one.

[XunSarak]

<p>I am a lvl 80 Monk and have been at lvl 80 since about two weeks after RoK. My guild does not raid so the only weapons and armor that I have available is through the broker. I have the best dw weapons that I can get, both are over 90 dmg, around 4sec delay and have +14 crush and pierce adornments.</p><p>I tried a small test the other day to see if the Srt line was worth it or not. With the STR line filled, agi for the reuse timers and int for crits, I averaged 750 DPS using a set of CAs at 3 second intervals and no weapons. With the two legendary weapons I parsed a little less, around 735 DPS. I played around with a lot of combinations of weapons and brawler AAs and did not find much difference in average DPS over the long hall. Oh, everything is unbuffed, solo against lvl 76^ Heroic mobs.</p><p>Guess I am saying that until you can get Fabled weapons with dmg over 90 and a good proc and timer 2.5 sesc or less, the STr tree is as good as any other. The legendary weapons just don't quite cut it.</p>

[Editedmind]

<cite>x0rtrunks wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Editedmind wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Editedmind wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why fist wraps? Arent slow weapons better than fast weapons?</blockquote>Nope. It's just harder to miss the interval with a slow weapon, so you don't lose as much DPS when you mindlessly mash combat arts, and you gain a much higher benefit from hasting slow weapons than you do with quick weapons.</blockquote>I dont think I understand the point you just made. You say you gain much higher benefit from hasting slow weapons than fast weapons. So that would make what I said true, wouldnt it? Why would you choose fist wraps then? Id think if you werent going barefisted then you would want the slowest weapons for less conflict between ca and auto, and less ripostes against you.</blockquote>Nope, see. . . Quick weapons hit more often than slow weapons, every time, that's why you still haste slow weapons. The thing is, most people just like to wack-a-mole as soon as their combat arts light up, which isn't bad, but it doesn't make other approaches any less valid. If you have a couple of procs you want to go off more often, or want to increase you chances to do critical or double attack, taking a quick weapon that hits twice as fast as a slow weapon will increase your chances twice as much.It's like the argument of party balance. . . You get people who don't leave the harbour without a healer, and others who don't mind rolling with pure DPS groups. In the end, it's not that anybody is wrong, both camps have valid points. It's just a matter of opinion.</blockquote><p>Ok still trying to understand.1. You say quick weapons hit more often than slow weapons but I dont see how that is an advantage since they also hit for less. Hitting twice as often for half the damage is a wash. Unless you are just saying it is not a disadvantage?</p><p>2. You say that quick weapons give you more chance to proc, but I think that I read that all procs (except rogue poison) are normalized so that they go off the same number of times per minute for slow or fast weapons. Am I right?</p><p>3. You say that quick weapons give more chance to crit or double attack but I think that as with point #1 is a wash since they also hit for less. In fact, I think you may get less crit damage for fast weapons since crit damage is dependent not just on the damage average but also I read that it is dependant on the damage range (max minus min). A larger damage range gives better overall crit damage. With 2 weapons, the one that is 100-200 will crit for higher average dps than the one that is 125-175 even though they both have same average damage and even if they are both the same delay.</p><p> I can go with the "everyone has their own likes and dislikes" if we are saying that they are equal, but I dont see a reason why fast weapons could be said to be better as I think was implied earlier in the thread. In the game in general it is widely accepted that slow weapons are superior due to the wider damage range giving better crit dps. But here in the monk forum there seems to be some difference of opinion. I guess Im wondering if there is some monk specific mechanic that accounts for that difference. Is there a monk proc or crit that is not normalized to be the same frequency for fast or slow weapons?</p></blockquote>Editedmind is incorrect with regards to procs and crits. Sorry.1. Slow weapons and fast weapons can be compared by their damage rating. A fast weapon that hits for 10-20 with a 2 second delay has the same damage rating as a weapon that hits for 25-35 but has a 4 second delay. (10+20)/2=15 DR and (25+35)/4=15 DR. Damage Rating isn't perfect, but it's a loose guide on the effectiveness of a weapons auto-attack damage.2. Proc rate is normalized. If a weapon says it will proc 1.3 times per minute, that's how often it will proc regardless of what your actual delay is.3. The wider damage spread usually found on slower weapons will benefit more from crits, because a crit is going to be at least the max damage of your weapon.A longer delay is generally going to work out better for a couple reasons. In addition to those mentioned above, A longer delay will interfere less with CA casting. In other words, you'll have more chances to cast CAs between your auto-attack swings. It's also a good idea to find weapons with equal delays so they both swing at the same time. It'll make timing CAs between auto attack swings that much easier.</blockquote>Per hit, % chance, etc. etc.  Now let's say you have a weapon that attacks every 1 second, and a weapon for every 5 seconds. During a 12 second fight, one weapon goes off 12 +/- times, and the other goes off twice. Both have a (let's say. . . ) 50% chance to crit or DA, whatever, so which is better?  In some cases the slower weapon will outperform the quicker, or the other way around. A higher frequency will tend to provide a better average, and it really comes down to how much faith you place in RNG.My advice is still to play around with it yourself, don't limit yourself to one thing because of what someone else tells you. If you find something works better for you, even if everyone says it sucks, just do it.

[githyanki]

<p>Well the whole idea when duel wielding is to get two weapons that have the same delay on them.   That way you can get swings in on both weapons as you time your ca's in between.    If you are running 4 second delay weapons just roll with it as brawler weapon choices are kinda limited compared to other classes.   When i think of the sheer number of scout weapons out there it really irratates me since we get stuffed by the itemization of decent weapon drops.  </p><p> Some people who dont have access to raid drops are gonna get stuck with a 4 second delay combo which isn't all that bad just not the best dps/stat weapons your gonna find.   And if you find that the longer delay works for ya then roll with it.   However our fabled epic is 2.5 and there is a pretty good 2.5 out of protector's realm that you can get now in most pick up raids from the snake encounter.    That combo will keep you happy till you break into vp with your mythical and and then there are many choices for brawlers for your off hand.   </p><p>Personally i dont like the 1.6 and 2. delay weapons since i suck with timing them.    If you stay in defensive its a bit easier but who does that all the time.    The .4 second avg cast time and then recovery means very little room for oopses in between your hits.    So basically you will lose swings and dps will not be optimal.   However if your a hero and can time it like a fiend and never miss then you can probably make yourself respectible.    I'm not that good so i'll stick with my 2.5ers.</p>

[sensie]

<p>I have tested both unarmed and DW.  I did this on a lvl 55 epic in SQ.</p><p>My tests where done with auto attack only, attacking the mob for one minute and then FDing.</p><p>So the mob I tested on was the exact same.</p><p>I was lvl 80 fully AA maxed, using 2 dw fabled weapons (teir 7 and teir <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> with a 2.5 delay</p><p>Both had procs on them along with adournments I added.</p><p>In running the tes about 6 to 7 times, the results were pretty much the same.</p><p>You lose about a third of your dps when going unarmed.  This is with 96DA and the dps mod you also get.</p><p>I have also run simalar tests with legandary weapons and the results where pretty much the same.</p><p>Since our auto attacks make 50 to 60 percent of our dps, the str line does not seem viable.</p><p>Invest some money and buy weapons.</p><p>I have been playing for almost since launch and have found to make life easier as a monk</p><p>always ALWAYS look to upgrade it makes soooo much better.  I think we might be more gear reliant then</p><p>any other class, as it tends to show a lot more when we fall behind in upgrades, more so that most classes. </p>

[Beausun76]

<cite>sensie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have tested both unarmed and DW.  I did this on a lvl 55 epic in SQ.</p><p>My tests where done with auto attack only, attacking the mob for one minute and then FDing.</p><p>So the mob I tested on was the exact same.</p><p>I was lvl 80 fully AA maxed, using 2 dw fabled weapons (teir 7 and teir <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> with a 2.5 delay</p><p>Both had procs on them along with adournments I added.</p><p>In running the tes about 6 to 7 times, the results were pretty much the same.</p><p>You lose about a third of your dps when going unarmed.  This is with 96DA and the dps mod you also get.</p><p>I have also run simalar tests with legandary weapons and the results where pretty much the same.</p><p>Since our auto attacks make 50 to 60 percent of our dps, the str line does not seem viable.</p><p>Invest some money and buy weapons.</p><p>I have been playing for almost since launch and have found to make life easier as a monk</p><p>always ALWAYS look to upgrade it makes soooo much better.  I think we might be more gear reliant then</p><p>any other class, as it tends to show a lot more when we fall behind in upgrades, more so that most classes. </p></blockquote>Your assuming that new players now the game well enough to trick out their Monks, which can be hard to do if this is your first toon. Str is not a bad way to go at all up to a certain point without having to put in all the time and effort of fabled weapons, adornments, MC crafted items. Not to mention most new players dont now the economy well enough to make the money needed to get halfway to what you described for gear.AA wise at the beginning of a Monks career, I still stand by that Str is fine until you have the resources to get what you need. respeccing the first few times is free and even after that it's pretty cheap.My opinion is to have fun with fists until it becomes unviable in the later levels.

[Jaslath]

<cite>sensie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have tested both unarmed and DW.  I did this on a lvl 55 epic in SQ.</p><p>My tests where done with auto attack only, attacking the mob for one minute and then FDing.</p><p>So the mob I tested on was the exact same.</p><p>I was lvl 80 fully AA maxed, using 2 dw fabled weapons (teir 7 and teir <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> with a 2.5 delay</p><p>Both had procs on them along with adournments I added.</p><p>In running the tes about 6 to 7 times, the results were pretty much the same.</p><p>You lose about a third of your dps when going unarmed.  This is with 96DA and the dps mod you also get.</p><p>I have also run simalar tests with legandary weapons and the results where pretty much the same.</p><p>Since our auto attacks make 50 to 60 percent of our dps, the str line does not seem viable.</p><p>Invest some money and buy weapons.</p><p>I have been playing for almost since launch and have found to make life easier as a monk</p><p>always ALWAYS look to upgrade it makes soooo much better.  I think we might be more gear reliant then</p><p>any other class, as it tends to show a lot more when we fall behind in upgrades, more so that most classes. </p></blockquote>While it's nice you went to the trouble to test, the test you did isn't relevant.  Even before Kunark the rule of thumb was that the Str line became obsolete once you got end game fabled weapons.  The question now is at what point during a character's life  does using the Str line and unarmed really hurt you?  If someone is going to test can they do it with and without using MC weapons.  Contrary to popular belief not everyone is going to be able to afford them at every level. 

[Beausun76]

<cite>Jaslath wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>sensie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have tested both unarmed and DW.  I did this on a lvl 55 epic in SQ.</p><p>My tests where done with auto attack only, attacking the mob for one minute and then FDing.</p><p>So the mob I tested on was the exact same.</p><p>I was lvl 80 fully AA maxed, using 2 dw fabled weapons (teir 7 and teir <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> with a 2.5 delay</p><p>Both had procs on them along with adournments I added.</p><p>In running the tes about 6 to 7 times, the results were pretty much the same.</p><p>You lose about a third of your dps when going unarmed.  This is with 96DA and the dps mod you also get.</p><p>I have also run simalar tests with legandary weapons and the results where pretty much the same.</p><p>Since our auto attacks make 50 to 60 percent of our dps, the str line does not seem viable.</p><p>Invest some money and buy weapons.</p><p>I have been playing for almost since launch and have found to make life easier as a monk</p><p>always ALWAYS look to upgrade it makes soooo much better.  I think we might be more gear reliant then</p><p>any other class, as it tends to show a lot more when we fall behind in upgrades, more so that most classes. </p></blockquote>While it's nice you went to the trouble to test, the test you did isn't relevant.  Even before Kunark the rule of thumb was that the Str line became obsolete once you got end game fabled weapons.  The question now is at what point during a character's life  does using the Str line and unarmed really hurt you?  If someone is going to test can they do it with and without using MC weapons.  Contrary to popular belief not everyone is going to be able to afford them at every level.  </blockquote>Agreed. Nothing wrong with going Str since you'll save the money needed to get the "good" stuff later on and then respec. Str is very viable in a Monks early career.

[githyanki]

<p>OK so someone asked for a test here goes.  All fights are against the training wall in kunzar jungle which is a lvl 76 no arrow mob with but loads of hp's.   My average is about 54 to 57 percent melee damage so ya'll can figure out what the real dps would be if i used ca's in between.</p><p>Did 3 fights with fabled epic with smoldering vampiric pith on it and doomcoils deactivated baton with 14 crush aug on it.   18 dps mod 40 melee crit 7 double attack 865 strength.  no outside buffs or potions.    avg was 1113.45 ext dps just melee no combat abilities whatsoever besides str proc ring.  epic is 95.8 rated and doomcoiles is 99 damage rated.   Both weapons are 2.5 delay.</p><p>Next i did a legandary and crappy fabled combo.    Deklium battering cudgel is common as dirt on the broker. It is 87 damage rated.  Twisted club from shard of hate is 85.5 rated.   848 str 18 dps mod 36 melee crit and 9 double attack.  avg was 819.9 ext dps.   Both weapons are 4. delay.</p><p>My mastercrafted try was pristine imbued battle mace x 2.   My strength was 793 dps mod of 18 melee crit of 36 and double attack at 7 percent.   These weapons are a 67.9 rated weapon and are a 4 second delay.   Avg of ext dps was 626.89.   I'll do a strength aa line test probably tomorrow after the raid.    If in doubt about my gear i'm mostly instance and some t1 t2 drops depending on if i'm off tanking or just dps for that fight.   I"m on the butcherblock server with the same name as my name for the forums.   I'll update tomorrow or someone else can who has similar gear or what not to give a basic lvl 80 monk test.  </p>

[githyanki]

<p>Well went and did my strength aa line test tonight anyways.    Was curious to see if it was gonna be in the range i thought and was pretty close.   809 str 38 dps mod 36 melee crit and 103 double attack.   Had the strength ring on again adept 3 offensive and adept 3 self haste to life buff running.   My avg was 781.38 dps with no ca's used besides proc str ring.   </p><p>I wanted to get two of the piercing pitchaka mastercrafted but didn't want to waste the money on something i was gonna use only a handful of times.    They had a bigger damage range and 2.5 delay but oh well.    If i had some decent adorns on the mc stuff i think it would have added bout 80ish dps to my tests.   So there ya go same results as about year and a half two years ago.    Get nice mc stuff with good proc adorns and you can compete or get close to our aa line and still have needed stats and hp's.   Or get legendary/crummy fabled stuff and beat your aa line and have nice stats and hp's with saves and what not.  Or epic and nice t1 /t2 fabled and beat it by quite a bit.    Mythical and vp gear i'm sure is as big a jump as my good weapons are over each lower tier.  </p><p>In case you wanted to know the mc stuff i bought for just over a pp on my server and the deklium i picked up for 54 gp.  </p>

[githyanki]

<p>Ok did 3 more fights with ca's thrown in between to get a better feel for what you can really do with the strength line and this is the results.  The order is epic combo, legendary crappy fabled mc and then strength line.   Went all out and did the best i could with the same buffs and same stats as previously listed.  </p><p>epic 2032.65</p><p>legendary/crappy fabled 1517.18</p><p>mastercrafted 1372.18</p><p>strength line 1450.9</p><p>Now if you start to add group buffs like inquis dirge illus coercer then the numbers can get pretty big but i felt a simple self test would be more accurate.</p>

[Turb]

<p>To me, the point of being STR while levelling was to get Chi.    The dps of unarmed vs armed is very close.   The benefit from Chi when hunting nameds is huge.   It adds significant dps that you don't factor in by purely looking at autoattack damage.</p><p>Fighting against nameds with Chi, Tsunami and Eagle Shriek is great, at least before T8.    It's even better as a bruiser when you add the KO Combo effect to Chi.</p><p>I would still level up again on STR and INT.    In T8, AGI and WIS have more appeal for raid utility and AE aggro, while Eagle Shriek drops in value because T8 heroics hit so hard that under 30% health you're much more likely to be one shotted than previous tiers. </p><p>There's also some other nice uses of Chi when levelling up, like reducing the reuse timer of Call of Qeynos significantly... pop Chi then call home.    Or if it's up when you need to do a group FD, you can pop Chi then group FD.</p>

[githyanki]

<p>Well the point i wanted to make was that you don't have to suffer with lower stats using the str line while lvling up if you have the extra cash laying around to buy mc weapons.   I would say untill you have 30 40 ap's str line is not bad.   But after that with int and wis or throw in some of the agility line that besides those who prefer to roleplay str line is obsolete.    </p><p>Another thing to consider if you decide to group at all while lvling you will get more benefit out of dirge and ill/coercer buffs if you dont have max double attack and still can pull similar numbers BEFORE those classes buff you. </p>

[Turb]

<p>I think you can use Chi with weapons equipped, so yes you could have the best of both, but again that's only really useful if you want to play the named-hunting game.</p>

[Blu]

<span style="font-size: 16px;font-family: Arial;" class="Apple-style-span"><div >One piece that has been left out of the argument is that your fists increase every level. When you hit 70, your MC adorned weapons have the same DR they did at 62, but your fists have grown with you every level.<div></div><div>This monk is my main, and I would recommend going Str every time for main characters to save money (currently, you'll need all you can get for t8 gear). If it's an alt, and you have extra money to blow, then by all means MC-adorned-gear yourself to your heart's content and use the would-be Str AAs for another proc (Sta or Wis line).</div><div></div><div>Having recently hit 72, I switched over to using MC adorned weapons. I'm not sure that was actually wise since I spent a lot and gained little other than stats (that I've noticed). I haven't parsed, so it's hard to say. You really couldn't judge by one parse anyway. You could have a lucky parse or an unlucky parse in any one session. I do like the Vampiric adorn for a weapon tho. It's not much but every bit of health helps.</div><div></div><div>As far as AAs, at least Int 4/4/8 is a given, for the 18.1% melee crit chance. I like to go ahead and take the Int tree for the end ability, as it is somewhat useful for hard quest mobs. The extra parry chance from Eagle's Talon doesn't hurt either. I like Str 4/4/8 up to t8 (take it first, if you're going to take it). The Wis line is another one that I favor, mainly for having more tools for fighting against groups. Crane Flock is devastating against groups, but you can't use it that often (every 3 mins). Crane Twirl is ok as a proc (better than the Stamina proc IMO). Crane Sweep is not bad, since it's another group attack and it has a knockdown. Currently I'm specced into Sta 4/4/8 for the extra proc, but I think I might spec out of it and into Agi 4/4/8 for the 12% reduction in casting timers. The Sta proc is on auto-attack only anyway, so it helps but is not all that impressive.</div></div></span>

[Saphirewind]

<cite>Halato wrote:</cite><blockquote>What are your thoughts on Dieties?</blockquote>As messed up as this is gonna sound, it works.  (At least for me.)  I am a lvl 80 Fae monk who follows Tunare.  Now you may be thinking to yourself "Self.  Why would any monk in their right mind choose a deity that gives heal buffs since monks only get one heal?"  Well, you just answered your own question there.  Monks only get one heal.  If I want to run and solo a particularly nasty mob, I just take my bear with me and every hit I land on the mob has a chance to proc a HOT on me and keep Tsunami/Superior Riposte from being panic buttons in the hopes that I can use them to buy a little more time to either burn my heal or run out of aggro range then FD.  Plus there is Tunare's Lifeshield which is a lot like Superior Riposte except the reflection lasts longer (time based not # of skill absorbtions based) and it absorbes 10 melee hits rather than just one, and it works on epics which is an added bonus.  As I said, probably sounds like insanity (just like most of the stuff about my little monkey), but it works for me.

[Stabbath]

Str line with Chi is way better than MC weps (as of level 63, I wont speak for higher) if you want to solo heroics. I've tried both. However, wis line is better for soloing groups.

[Xanrn]

I go with Mithanniel Marr, half for RP reasons and half, because the God Cloak is the best DPS cloak you can get outside of Rallos, the 1st blessing is good and the 10 shot stoneskin miracle works wonders.As for weapons, well if your not planning to raid, then your best "heroic" weapons are both 2.5 dly (Fabled Epic and Fabled weapon from CoA boss), all the Raid Weapons are 2.5 (well except for 2 handers and no that pos from Hate trash doesn't count as a weapon).So you should go with 2.5 dly weapons or even faster, as low as possible. So you have time to train yourself to be able to time attacks with faster weapons.

[Meauvena]

<p>I've read this post with interest due to just creating a baby monk recently.</p><p>One thing I've noticed is that there is only a discussion and tests with Bare Fists vs. DW.</p><p>Are 2-Handers not viable for monks?  It seems for other fighters if they are looking to dps they are always looking for that long delay big spread 2 hander to fill the bill.</p><p>Also, when comparing DR's of DW vs. 2 Handers ... do you add the 2 DW DR's and compare it with the 2 hander DR? or what's the formula?</p><p>And what about the 30% hit everyone talks about to the Offhand weapon?</p><p>Just trying to get a real picture of what to look for as I level...Thanks,</p>

[githyanki]

If you look up further in this post i did a parse test about a month ago using fabled epic mc and fists.   About the same time i ran a test with mallet of the twins which is a 132ish DR 2 hander from the twins encounter in temple.    Against the training wall in jungle bout the best i could do was 1300ish.    I've tried to mess around with it and the best case scenerio is using crane flock vs 4 or more critters with the 2 hander.....and you better switch it out when your done with crane flock or your dps bump will go down.   I mean 7k double hits are cool and all but even sped up to 2.5 seconds your better off using dw at 1.7ish delay and hitting for 2 to 3k double hits twice as fast.  /Shrug test it out and see if the one from vp is better at 133ish DR.