Looking for a comment from SOE

[HealerMathi]

Not much has been done for summoners that's done them any justice beyond cosmetics especially as of late (ie: Shrink pet, conjuror pet footsteps) and even that is lacking but as dire of an issue.My concern is how obsolete summoners are. I don't claim to know much about how SOE handles its classes or if theres even anyone taking notice to our issues (let alone if SOE even realizes our strife). I'm sure many of my fellow summoners are more than willing to take note on how tanks are needing a fix as well.I'm posting today on the official forums to get some form of comment from anyone from SOE about certain issues pertaining to our class. Namely our DPS or lack there-of compared to the other mages furthermore all DPS classes. We're skimming water  in DPS with enchanters in my eyes yet have no utility to offer.To save myself some time I'll gladly point out a constructive thread thats been made pertaining to Conjuror fixes / suggestions. I'm mostly posting this to get some type of acknowledgement from SOE.Has this been noticed?Is anything being thought out?Is anything being worked on?

[HealerMathi]

I'd also like to mention, I myself, am hoping something will atleast be announced before the next expansion. God knows ROK went down the drain for many summoners and I'd hate to see the next one be the same

[Laiina]

<cite>HealerMathias wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd also like to mention, I myself, am hoping something will atleast be announced before the next expansion. God knows ROK went down the drain for many summoners and I'd hate to see the next one be the same</blockquote><p>That is not true.</p><p>Why, I am finding that Conjurors are #25 on the list of most desired classe to run RE2 with.... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Scrappe]

<cite>HealerMathias wrote:</cite><blockquote>My concern is how obsolete summoners are. I don't claim to know much about how SOE handles its classes or if theres even anyone taking notice to our issues (let alone if SOE even realizes our strife). I'm sure many of my fellow summoners are more than willing to take note on how tanks are needing a fix as well.</blockquote><p>I think it's safe to say they are aware of our concerns. They may not share them, but I have no doubt they read the boards regularly. They rarely comment on the boards for fear of... well many things. I dont try to talk to devs anymore. I just talk to my brethren and I hope that the devs (not the mods, the devs) snoop on our discussions.</p><p>I've come to the conclusion of late that there are no true pet classes in EQ2 (for a variety of reasons related to nonupgraded pets, lack of pet enhancement, and lack of SOE attention to pet mechanics issues). Most of my comments will be in the necro forums as that is my summoner class.</p><p>When properly presented concerns that few can argue with are on the boards for as long as ours have been, you have to think that we're going to get some love in the next xpac, but it's hard to say. I cancelled my two primary accounts back in may after concluding that I simply could not stand being ignored any longer (I'm on an ancient 3rd account right now that is free due to the June to July free play period), but it was always my intent to see what their plan was for the next xpac.</p><ul><li>Will they ditch this horrible eq1 teired/keyed raiding style?</li><li>Will they address the plethora of pet problems?</li><li>Will they give us group instances that can be enjoyed earlier in the last teir?</li></ul><p>All of my concerns have been posted over and again (by myself and others) till the community is arthritically impaired. I don't need to keep reposting them.</p><ul><li>If SOE ignores these concerns</li><li>If SOE hasn't ignored them, but disagrees with these concerns</li><li>If SOE is ignorant of these concerns due to a lack of forum reading</li></ul><p>I will never come back to the game. It's not that I'll wait for some future game change, I just won't come back regardless because my faith will have been shattered. It's not that Im threatening SOE, it's just that I'm not having fun. I'm aggravated, which precludes fun. I'm bored because they removed elements that I've enjoyed. They've changed the game dynamic enough to where I'm paying for a different game. </p><p>I understand I wont like every xpac, but Kunark... ugh. I suffered it for as long as I could and finally quit (after 3.5 years I might add). They've got one chance in November to get me back. I doubt I'm alone. I doubt I'm even in a minority. This isn't just a summoner thing. I know so many, so very many, aggravated people. I remember when I came to this realization about Eve-Online. They aggravated for so long that I finally had to stop threatening and went ahead and cancelled all my accounts. I tried to come back later when they drastically improved the game, but I fizzled out. It's just not the same trying to come back after being abused for so long. </p><p>It's not that there's some better game I'm threatening to move onto (although that should be relevant to SOE), it's just that I dont want to suffer this one any longer. I'm not swayed by new wonder games like Warhammer and AoC that try to steal SOE subscribers by touting everything they have that SOE doesn't.  If I just dont play a game for a time, so be it. But some day, when a better game comes out, I'll try that one, but it won't be an SOE game. As far as I'm concerned, EQ2 is the cream of the crop of SOE games. If they can't maintenence this one properly anymore (there was a time when EQ2 was maintenanced in stellar fashion), I don't want to cause myself the pain of trying to find pleasure in SWG, Planetside, VG or whatever. I'm sure you know what I mean.</p>

[HealerMathi]

Fair enough, and I can understand why SOE would refuse to make any official comments considering the amount of time the customers waste hounding them with trivialties so I'll just lay out everything I feel is an issue and encourage everyone else to do the same.Some of the issues are quoted from another post just so no one calls me on it <p> Dumbfire pets - plain and simply need to be either a dot or an AE immune dumbfire. Even then they're still a problem but it'd be a fix for now. I can honestly say I dont cast dumbfires for heroic content and I only cast dumbfires on mobs that do not AE in raid content. (communion being the only exception)</p><p> Burst damage, lack thereof. Summoners in general have real issues in this area. Much of our damage is the kind that takes time to ramp up and get going. The best we can hope for is Blazing Manifestation on a Scout pet. A faster re-use on Elemental Unity might help. Even the increased HP in RE2 isn't quite enough to make the difference, but at least it's a start. As it stands now every DPS class besides summoners has some form of "Burst DPS" leg to stand on and its a bit of an issue in heroic content.</p><p> Scout pet. He's a Swashbucker! He's a Ranger! He's a . . . Monk? Can we just make him not stink? With the AE's prevalent in content today, he's a liability. He can't really stand up to the AE's, and even when he does, the damage he is capable of just doesn't add up. I realize this is a very tough development issue. If the pet is made too tough, he becomes a tank. AE Immunity is too much. I don't know what the answer is, but we've got a pet that we can't use for much. </p><p>Ontop of this I can't stress enough how completely irrelevant this pet is. I have never used it concretely for anything, it's DPS just doesn't compare. I can understand how the scout pet being able to do more damage over a short amount of time is in a sense "more" DPS. However on a longer duration fight the scout pet isn't even anything near comparable for DPS.</p><p> Should we have pet toys? Maybe this is the answer to the Scout pet problem, I don't know. For a long time I didn't like the idea, but it seems that it might correct a lot of our current issues. Our pets don't get a lot of +Spell, +Crit, +DA, etc. They just don't get gear, and we don't have buffs for them specifically. Just giving a pet the ability to use items, whether they are summoned, temporary items or vendor trash would be useful. Help us, please. Fire Seed</p><p> As it stands right now, the Fire Seed line is largely useless, except to provide a tiny overall boost in damage. Reasons:</p><p> * The damage on the initial tick on this spell is incredibly small. * The tick frequency is slow. * The proc rate of the spell is high enough that, given enough melee haste from players, it can easily overwrite itself without ever ticking a second time. * If two players have Seed up, they will continuously overwrite each other. * With so few AoE encounters out there (especially in Rise of Kunark zones) the chances of the "Blooming Flames" effect actually going off are tiny. Even then, the Blooming Flames spell does less damage than even a tiny AoE attack. * Fire Seed can only proc on "a successful attack" which means it cannot be triggered by spells at all. * The spell cannot be cast on people outside the group when in a raid, only within the group.</p><p> Several ways the spell can be improved:</p><p> * Change the spell to a straight up Direct Damage proc, and increase the trigger chance to 30%. Make all the damage that it would otherwise do be front loaded. * Change the proc method to "any successful attack" to allow spells to trigger it. --I'm aware that the two above changes would change the Fire Seed line into a Conjuror's version of Tandem. Not necessarily a bad thing! For a unique twist, Blooming Flames could trigger if the recipient of the buff is a Mage. * Allow the spell to be cast on any raid member, not just group members only.</p>

[Laiina]

<cite>HealerMathias wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fair enough, and I can understand why SOE would refuse to make any official comments considering the amount of time the customers waste hounding them with trivialties so I'll just lay out everything I feel is an issue and encourage everyone else to do the same.<p><b>Dumbfire pets</b> - plain and simply need to be either a dot or an AE immune dumbfire. Even then they're still a problem but it'd be a fix for now. I can honestly say I dont cast dumbfires for heroic content and I only cast dumbfires on mobs that do not AE in raid content. (communion being the only exception)</p></blockquote><p>While all of the issues you mentioned are valid, that particular one is one of the most annoying. In far too many zones and instances, they are unusable. What gives them a triple whammy is the long cast/reuse timers, and the fact that summoners simply do not have much in the way of "nuke" spells to make up for it. And the dps of Dumbfire pets seldom comes close to what is "advertised" in the spell examine - time after time you get spam about how mobXX has killed your dumb pet. I don't see many for the killing the DOT of other casters. Any AOE wipes them out.</p><p>When EQ1 first came out, summoners were looked upon as one of the better dps/utility classes. But since then we have by surpassed in many ways by other classes. Even a Fury can out dps me if specced for dps - and they have better heals and buffs than I do (!).</p><p>If we can't get better hostile spells, at least give us some better utilities and/or buffs - sometimes I think that if not for COH I would drop even lower on the "last picked" chart.</p>

[Malachyte]

<cite>HealerMathias wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Fire Seed</p>Several ways the spell can be improved:<p> * Change the spell to a straight up Direct Damage proc, and increase the trigger chance to 30%. Make all the damage that it would otherwise do be front loaded. * Change the proc method to "any successful attack" to allow spells to trigger it. --I'm aware that the two above changes would change the Fire Seed line into a Conjuror's version of Tandem. Not necessarily a bad thing! For a unique twist, Blooming Flames could trigger if the recipient of the buff is a Mage. * Allow the spell to be cast on any raid member, not just group members only.</p></blockquote>Actually, if i remember right, back before LU13 went it that's exactly how it was (and the proc percentage was like 20-25% even then).  It was like 250 or so DD (T5) with no dot component and still put an impairment on the mob that lasted for 16s where when the mob died and had the Fire Seed impairment still on it that it would trigger the Blooming flames effect on the rest of the encounter.  With the way some procs are now like Tandem and Aria, i don't see why it just isn't changed back to it's old form where it could actually be useful.Even if it's for melee only, or if it was for any dmg done to the mob, anything is better than what it is currently.  And why isn't it already raid wide?

[HealerMathi]

I wanna point out that maybe some of these ideas are a bit flashy or a bit much to ask but I certainly feel they're justified considering on how summoner DPS piddles in comparison to others'My original thoughts on fireseed were to convert it back to DD and have it at 30% proc without AA and then have the VP pants have the focus effect to make it trigger on spells as well OR To have Fireseed a DD that proc'd on "any succesful attack" and continue having the pants increase the proc rate as well. If a 40% proc rate (with AAs included) after all that is too much the AA line could be converted to either increase the damage by 1-2% per point on either the death trigger or on initial effect.

[HealerMathi]

I just wanna see something happen....Beastlords arent gunna happenSummoners are the only class I can bring myself to play anymore...its a curse and with my DPS and utility being completely moot on a raid scene and my lack of burst DPS / DPS I will usually get picked over others.This doesn't only apply to Conjurors but Necromancers as well

[Scrappe]

<p>BEASTLORDS!!</p><p>/stoke_fire</p><p>(makes a stirring motion while wearing a maniacal grin)</p>

[Thmy]

<p>High level guilds take one to Zero Conj to  the VP raids.</p><p>We have dropped a lot in the needed class list.  being a Conj tinkerer helps a bit.</p><p>We peak early  in an expantion but the other classes just keep getting better and better with items and adornment.</p><p>Master spells  for pets and pet buffs do so very little.</p>

[Mathaleus]

<p>I always find it interesting how people complain that conj aren't DPS.  In my guild raids and in p/u raids, I am always the top caster for parsing on DPS.  With scouts topping me, but never our wizards or locks.</p><p>What I'd like to see though, is something from EQ1...let us summon items that can be used by pets.  Say, earthen weapons that procs a ward and small DD.  Airy weapons that procs a stun and DD, and fiery weapons that proc an encounter based DD on successful spell.  And maybe a icy weapon that procs DD as well.  Have them add DA or Crit chances and such.  Then allow us to put them on any pet as well (conj, necro, shammy, illy)</p>

[Laiina]

<cite>Mathaleus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I always find it interesting how people complain that conj aren't DPS.  In my guild raids and in p/u raids, I am always the top caster for parsing on DPS.  With scouts topping me, but never our wizards or locks.</p></blockquote>I honestly don't see how unless your wizards and warlocks are really slacking and/or underequipped.

[HealerMathi]

Yeah dude sorry for the bad news...but your wizard and scouts must suck. The assassin and wizard should be keeping you in atleast 3rd...rogues should contest you if not beat you.....

[hellfire]

<cite>Mathaleus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I always find it interesting how people complain that conj aren't DPS.  In my guild raids and in p/u raids, I am always the top caster for parsing on DPS.  With scouts topping me, but never our wizards or locks.</p></blockquote>Sorry man but this is completly untrue in preety much all aspects  of sorcerers Compared to summoners in regards  of dps.If you  are doing more dps then a sorcerer then there is something wrong with the sorcer ers grp set up,gear spells, or  just them selfs.

[Mathaleus]

As i said, it's guild raids and p/u raids...which means usually no troub and far from uber raiding guild group setups.  And also, I said the top caster DPS...the scouts beat me.  But at any rate...not everyone can be the top parser, someone has to be 2nd, 3rd, etc.  But I've yet to see anything that screams to me that conj is not atop DPS class.

[Vortexelemental]

<cite>Mathaleus wrote:</cite><blockquote>As i said, it's guild raids and p/u raids...which means usually no troub and far from uber raiding guild group setups.  And also, I said the top caster DPS...the scouts beat me.  But at any rate...not everyone can be the top parser, someone has to be 2nd, 3rd, etc.  But I've yet to see anything that screams to me that conj is not atop DPS class.</blockquote>Any manner of reasons could be affecting that you know, i was in a pawbuster pickup, and doing 3rd-6th consistently with no troub/illy (i have master mage pet btw), but i bet none of the people there even had adept III's, and i know how to play my class, its when everyone is equal, is when we are behind a bit, and even then, its not just the dps, its a lot of things in t8 that are wrong.

[Marie-Ange Jourdelune]

<cite>Laiina wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mathaleus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I always find it interesting how people complain that conj aren't DPS. In my guild raids and in p/u raids, I am always the top caster for parsing on DPS. With scouts topping me, but never our wizards or locks.</p></blockquote>I honestly don't see how unless your wizards and warlocks are really slacking and/or underequipped.</blockquote>Has a Wizard that was capable of competing with Assassin for the top parse before Gu43, the best conjuror can outparse us.  (in the tier raiding entry, I didn't go to VP yet and I am mostly T1 or T2 fabled, but not that much slot (5 items))The two group buff of wizards are really effective to boost up the conjuror DPS.  Frigid gift or Surge of Ro.  Why?  Those two buff are better if you get fast casting spells.  Wizard spells are slow to cast, so take less optimal DPS with those group buff.  A conjuror that get 6-7 nice procs items, can outdps a wizard, just by spamming their faster spells, in conjunction with the trouby procs, the trouby PoTM and the Velium Gift of Wizards.Actually, the only means I get to don't be outparse by conjy, was using my group debuff less...  and I don't feel quite good with it.  So, if you get a sucky conjy in your raid formation, it's because he don't maximise is DPS output throught chaining spells in keeping in mind hor to maximise is fast casting with all the groups buffs. (and didnt farm the right peace of gear versus equivalent gear mages)It's easier to necro to do something with Lifeburn.  But,  even that, On 5 conjys I had raid on RoK,  2 were outstanding players...  1 of them is now a swashy and TOP the parse when the assassin take a night off.  The other one is a guardian. Shame... it's hard to find a good conjy.My main objective here, is not to anger anybody, but to say that I had seen outstanding conjy that had surprise me a lot.  But they are rare.  And more we progress in RoK raid, more the scouts get all he glory while the mage are related to the bottom.  And with the chanters boost, I know how you feel.  While I had always strive to own the predator of that game, that I had good amount of success with it in the past, since Gu43 all mage suck hard.  It's so harder to shine, but when you shine, you get the recognition that with harder toon, you can beat a OP classes.Like my satisfaction to OWN our top Assassin parser on Re2 run ZW. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Marie-Ange

[hellfire]

<cite>Marie-Ange Jourdelune wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laiina wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mathaleus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I always find it interesting how people complain that conj aren't DPS. In my guild raids and in p/u raids, I am always the top caster for parsing on DPS. With scouts topping me, but never our wizards or locks.</p></blockquote>I honestly don't see how unless your wizards and warlocks are really slacking and/or underequipped.</blockquote>Has a Wizard that was capable of competing with Assassin for the top parse before Gu43, the best conjuror can outparse us.  (in the tier raiding entry, I didn't go to VP yet and I am mostly T1 or T2 fabled, but not that much slot (5 items))The two group buff of wizards are really effective to boost up the conjuror DPS.  Frigid gift or Surge of Ro.  Why?  Those two buff are better if you get fast casting spells.  Wizard spells are slow to cast, so take less optimal DPS with those group buff.  A conjuror that get 6-7 nice procs items, can outdps a wizard, just by spamming their faster spells, in conjunction with the trouby procs, the trouby PoTM and the Velium Gift of Wizards.Actually, the only means I get to don't be outparse by conjy, was using my group debuff less...  and I don't feel quite good with it.  So, if you get a sucky conjy in your raid formation, it's because he don't maximise is DPS output throught chaining spells in keeping in mind hor to maximise is fast casting with all the groups buffs. (and didnt farm the right peace of gear versus equivalent gear mages)It's easier to necro to do something with Lifeburn.  But,  even that, On 5 conjys I had raid on RoK,  2 were outstanding players...  1 of them is now a swashy and TOP the parse when the assassin take a night off.  The other one is a guardian. Shame... it's hard to find a good conjy.My main objective here, is not to anger anybody, but to say that I had seen outstanding conjy that had surprise me a lot.  But they are rare.  And more we progress in RoK raid, more the scouts get all he glory while the mage are related to the bottom.  And with the chanters boost, I know how you feel.  While I had always strive to own the predator of that game, that I had good amount of success with it in the past, since Gu43 all mage suck hard.  It's so harder to shine, but when you shine, you get the recognition that with harder toon, you can beat a OP classes.Like my satisfaction to OWN our top Assassin parser on Re2 run ZW. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Marie-Ange</blockquote>Can someone condense this into english please.I think he said conjs can beat wizards sometimes if they have alot of proc gear and if he uses his debuffl.... not sure on the rest?

[Vortexelemental]

<cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Marie-Ange Jourdelune wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laiina wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mathaleus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I always find it interesting how people complain that conj aren't DPS. In my guild raids and in p/u raids, I am always the top caster for parsing on DPS. With scouts topping me, but never our wizards or locks.</p></blockquote>I honestly don't see how unless your wizards and warlocks are really slacking and/or underequipped.</blockquote>I am a wizard who thinks, they know about conjuror issues. and etcMarie-Ange</blockquote>Can someone condense this into english please.I think he said conjs can beat wizards sometimes if they have alot of proc gear and if he uses his debuffl.... not sure on the rest?</blockquote>Done

[feldon30]

Moved to new thread....