Troubador Class Issues

[Banditman]

Well, I was hoping someone else would jump in here and get the ball rolling, but I guess I will since no one else seems to be amenable.  The class issues post here is severely outdated, and it's time we gave it an update.  The last post was well over a year ago and suffice it to say things have certainly changed in the interim.  Developers are now paying a bit more attention to class forums, and particularly to things pertaining to class issues.  So, here's a few things I'd like to see looked at.  As more ideas come in I'll edit the post to keep it a bit more updated than the current sticky topic.1.  Countersong needs some sort of, for lack of a better word, "feedback".  I think we all agree that we can on occasion see a very obvious case of Countersong working, but it would be awfully nice if we could get something in our logs that says "Countersong did this".  Right now it's a little too hocus pocus for me, and I think for many Troubadors.2.  Upgrade Selo's!  Please, for the love of all that is EQ, can we just get an upgrade Selo's so we can once again be what everyone on the entire planet expects - the fastest thing on the face of Norrath?  Bar none.  We shouldn't have to resort to hotkeying our Jboots.  Really, we shouldn't.3.  Soloing problems are the bane of most Troubadors.  Can Troubadors solo?  Yes, they can.  However, it is no understatement to say that they are among the top of the most risky and difficult classes to solo with.  Can we get a little love?  I completely understand that this is a difficult slope to navigate.  Troubadors are VERY good in a group and any increase in buff power would make them quite the powerhouse in a group setting.  Some ideas . . .a)  Let Troubadors (and Dirges) use Poisons.  It's still a little baffling why Bards are the only Scouts that cannot.  Even if Bards were only allowed ONE poison, it would be of great help.b)  When solo, double the effectiveness of every non-AA buff Troubadors have.  This must absolutely drop when a Troubador joins a group, I agree.  Perhaps give us non concentration buff that does the job and automatically cancels when we join or form a group.4.  Bards suffer greatly from their need to address not only +Spell damage, but +CA damage as well.  The number of items available with BOTH on them is quite low.  It would be very nice indeed if Bards were able to apply either +CA or +Spell to all of their abilities.  Instead of marking a difference, just apply all +damage to both kinds of abilities when the wearer is a Bard.5.  We're Bards, and We'd like Instruments please.  Charm slot would be a great place for them thank you very much.  Let the crafters create them.  Make them use the rare harvests of the appropriate material for the item, and make them affect a very specific song.  For instance, a Drum that enhances Selo's or a Guitar that enhances Allegretto.  This way we'd have to choose a couple things to enhance, and probably carry around a few different instruments to swap out situationally.6.  Every Scout in the game save Bards have Offensive and Defensive stances.  It sure would be nice to have those same options.  A little +DPS would be great on an Offensive stance for Troubadors, and some Block and Parry on Defensive.  Removing the concentration on our self buff was a start, but it didn't really go far enough.7.  This is a big one, and we really need some out of the box ideas to fix it.  Right now, there is not a whole heck of a lot of difference between a very well played Troubador and a poorly played Troubador.  The delta between them is just so small that most people can't tell if a Troubador is any good or not.  I have no idea how to fix it, but it most certainly is a big problem.8.  Please take a look at the duration of our Charm.  Even with full AA in it, the usefulness of the spell is not what it needs to be in order to maintain a spot on any hotbar.9.  Please take a look at our power drains.  Not long ago, the Enchanter power drains were converted to Direct Damage.  We'd truly appreciate the same consideration for our power drain spells.

[Wluil]

You make some good points, here are my thoughts and a few comments. While I agree when compared to our rogue and predator cousins we seem to be lacking, I don't know if the solution comes in making us more "scout" like, as opposed to making us more... bardly.<div></div><div>I don't the +CA/+Spell as a problem. In fact, it's what makes us so great. We aren't pigeon holed into being pure casters or pure melee, we can sway either way with the changes in the game. New GU nerfed melee players? No sweat, crank up our Spell Crit gear and we're on our way. Same in reverse. Personally I think it gives us a wider range of gear choices we can swap out situationally. I carry around about a crate full of gear for just about any situation. </div><div></div><div>I do love the idea of making instrument item charms that give certain song types a boost. This was mildly introduced with the fabled and (neigh impossible to get) Morrow's Song and Twelve-Tone Earstone. Lesser potent versions of these effects on more accessible items would be a great way to show off our uniqueness.</div><div></div><div>Another thing I know I'd like to see, is some kind of feedback placed on our end line demoralizers ability. Then again I'm not sure how many mobs are actually using attacks classified as Combat Arts these days, so it's whole effectiveness might be moot. All the same, it "feels" broken and that alone should be enough to throw some thought at it. </div><div></div><div>A raid level feature I'd like to see (perhaps on our big uber-weapon from TSO) is to make all our buffs true AE's across the entire raid. I'd even accept the range being crunked if it's too game breaking. For example, our group would pick up our buffs to the normal range they'll currently extend, but anyone not in our group but in our raid who is within 1/3 - 1/4 of that distance would receive our group buffs. </div><div></div><div>Troubador soloing is an art *shrug* I'm not sure any amount of changes can fix that. Although I think our charm would be ever more useful to us if it acted like a weak version of a coercers charm, the same as our mezz acts like a weak version of an Illy mez. As it currently stands, it's a 14 second countdown to a death sentence. It has it's limited uses, but on the field soloing is not really one of them. Plus this would keep our unique Troubador qualities.</div><div></div><div>*brings out the dead horse* </div><div></div><div>/beats</div><div>Aye, runspeed... for the love of all that is Bristlebane. If it breaks PVP just give it to us PvE'ers. Our pride is on the line here!</div><div></div><div>*puts dead horse away*</div><div></div><div>Either our INT end line ability needs review, or heroic opportunities themselves need review. This seems like something that could be really great, but missed the mark somewhere. Also, making our STA end line, Lend Shielding, more like a cleric's shield ally would be nice. In it's current state, it requires phenomenal timing to really get good group/raid use out of it. </div><div></div><div>Can we get a top tier heath/mana regen combo song? Oh, and on slightly related note. Can we not be 80's rockers anymore <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> What happened to Bria's this and So-and-So's that? I mean, come on, Fortifying Song? Power Ballad?! Who are we, Flock of Seagulls? It really feels like the spell/combat art crew never swapped out the internal place holder names for the real ones.</div><div></div><div>If we could have stances, what about stances that play off our hybrid qualities. A melee stance that reduces our spell effectiveness, but grants us DPS boosts, limited poison useage(?), and increased armor effectiveness. Or a spell-slinger stance that does somewhat of the opposite, while cranking up our spell crit. I think there's a lot that could be explored aside from the typical offensive/defensive.</div><div></div><div>I know the devs are busy with TSO right now, so a full revamp is unlikely. But I do like the idea of a fresh class discussion thread. Perhaps this one could be sticked, and someone take on responsibility to maintain it? Keeping all the consolidated info on the top post and editing it as ideas come along, and are implemented.</div>

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>From playing my troub through the last few set of live updates, I really dont have alot to complain about.  Raiding is always needed.  Ive not once been turned down for a group for a different class, and soloing while difficult is not impossible, just requires a bit more skill than easymode button that other classes have.</p><p>That being said there are a few things that I would not object to seeing.  One of them also being countersong.  The ability is great, when it works, but when you try your hardest to time that big ole AoE with your counter, then the named some some [Removed for Content] weak single target CA or something and wipes counter off that frustrates me.  To add to it no way to tell what even happened that triggered your counter off.</p><p>The dps issue that a troub needs, ehh personally when I think about it I just dont see this being an issue when you factor in everything a troub brings to the party.  Do we need stances? Ehh I guess it couldn't hurt anything, but I can see the raiding troubs who already pop out over 4kdps just doing even more, and that might be a bit overpowering.</p><p>The only damage type issue I have is the fact that we get 0 out of encounter AoE's, and this for the life of me I never understood.</p><p>Selos - ehh its fluff.  would be nice, not game breaker.</p><p>Instruments to enhance our songs would be nice.  </p>

[Faelgalad]

<p>A big part of the Solo Problem is Damage, our spells and combat arts have a ratio of 1,5.Those unfamiliar with this concept, divide the maximum damage by the minimum damage.Wizards for example having an ratio of 4,5.Our Problem starts with sinking sands.Our Damage to mob hitpoints is okay in "classic" everquest. But with Sinking Sands, itbecomes frustrating and from Kylong Plains really nasty.Changing our ratio from 1,5 to 2.0 from Level 50 upwards would solve quite a lot.Anf it's monkey easy to implement, just multiply our current minimal damage x2. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Way easier to implement then a solo-checking buff for double effect. </p><p>For all other things, I agree with Opener. I give training and tutorship to young bards in our not so small guild. </p><p>You allways see the T6 Batton hit the fun. </p>

[Ballads]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, I was hoping someone else would jump in here and get the ball rolling, but I guess I will since no one else seems to be amenable.  The class issues post here is severely outdated, and it's time we gave it an update.  The last post was well over a year ago and suffice it to say things have certainly changed in the interim.  Developers are now paying a bit more attention to class forums, and particularly to things pertaining to class issues.  So, here's a few things I'd like to see looked at.  As more ideas come in I'll edit the post to keep it a bit more updated than the current sticky topic.1.  Countersong needs some sort of, for lack of a better word, "feedback".  I think we all agree that we can on occasion see a very obvious case of Countersong working, but it would be awfully nice if we could get something in our logs that says "Countersong did this".  Right now it's a little too hocus pocus for me, and I think for many Troubadors.2.  Upgrade Selo's!  Please, for the love of all that is EQ, can we just get an upgrade Selo's so we can once again be what everyone on the entire planet expects - the fastest thing on the face of Norrath?  Bar none.  We shouldn't have to resort to hotkeying our Jboots.  Really, we shouldn't.3.  Soloing problems are the bane of most Troubadors.  Can Troubadors solo?  Yes, they can.  However, it is no understatement to say that they are among the top of the most risky and difficult classes to solo with.  Can we get a little love?  I completely understand that this is a difficult slope to navigate.  Troubadors are VERY good in a group and any increase in buff power would make them quite the powerhouse in a group setting.  Some ideas . . .a)  Let Troubadors (and Dirges) use Poisons.  It's still a little baffling why Bards are the only Scouts that cannot.  Even if Bards were only allowed ONE poison, it would be of great help.b)  When solo, double the effectiveness of every non-AA buff Troubadors have.  This must absolutely drop when a Troubador joins a group, I agree.  Perhaps give us non concentration buff that does the job and automatically cancels when we join or form a group.4.  Bards suffer greatly from their need to address not only +Spell damage, but +CA damage as well.  The number of items available with BOTH on them is quite low.  It would be very nice indeed if Bards were able to apply either +CA or +Spell to all of their abilities.  Instead of marking a difference, just apply all +damage to both kinds of abilities when the wearer is a Bard.5.  We're Bards, and We'd like Instruments please.  Charm slot would be a great place for them thank you very much.  Let the crafters create them.  Make them use the rare harvests of the appropriate material for the item, and make them affect a very specific song.  For instance, a Drum that enhances Selo's or a Guitar that enhances Allegretto.  This way we'd have to choose a couple things to enhance, and probably carry around a few different instruments to swap out situationally.6.  Every Scout in the game save Bards have Offensive and Defensive stances.  It sure would be nice to have those same options.  A little +DPS would be great on an Offensive stance for Troubadors, and some Block and Parry on Defensive.  Removing the concentration on our self buff was a start, but it didn't really go far enough.7.  This is a big one, and we really need some out of the box ideas to fix it.  Right now, there is not a whole heck of a lot of difference between a very well played Troubador and a poorly played Troubador.  The delta between them is just so small that most people can't tell if a Troubador is any good or not.  I have no idea how to fix it, but it most certainly is a big problem.</blockquote>Why I'll agree its time to make a new post on current troub issues, thats about where i stop agreeing with you. 1 Counter Song works perfect imo. It just takes little skill and mob knoledge to use best. If any improvement to CS I'd like to see i smake it castable on the move. This would allow you to cast it closer to the expected ability you plan to counter with out worrying abou tbeing intertupted. 2 For the love of god quit crying about selo's speed. Selo's is fast enough considering mounts have only been getting 2% increases. If any upgrade to it, make it effect other movement rates more. A base incombat run speed or stealth run speed upgrade be nice. Gimmie abilitys that make me better in combat not that make me get to point b faster. 3 Yes troubs take some skill to solo. You can't root nuke mobs to death like good soloing classes. Well maybe some classes were no tmeant to solo as well as others. I know some classes were meant to bring more to groups so i can accept being not a good soloer as some. A. are you even serious ? poisons? Bards do great dps as it is, give us poisons and we would be t1 dps. B. Meh want us to solo better give us 1 of 2 things, a root or an unbreakable snare. 4 This isssue is an old one. It has been adressed in high end gear and there are plenty of items that give both. I just think they need to open up more mage items to bards and crusaders. 5 Instruments are again fluff bullcrap imo. Sure I'd like to see some bard specific items, Sure make them Instruments if you want. 6 Stances are gained by bards through their other buffs. No other class offers such a mix offensive and defensive buffs. We create our own customed stances. 7 [Removed for Content], how can't you tell the difference? Maybe you can't tell but i sure can. Good troubs will JC often and at the right times, good troubs will parse above 4k and spike into 6k, good troubs dont die to AE's,  and good troubs understand the difference between fluff and useful ability's. I'll sit down and write out the real issues our class has later, but your huge misinterpretation of the problems had to be fixed now.

[Banditman]

Surprisingly, there are other issues besides those experienced by Mythical equipped Troubadors.  If you are a Troubador capable of 4k DPS, your issues are different than those experienced by most of the people playing the class.I am not interested in seeing a topic dominated by that top 5%.  I'm not saying those issues don't have a place, I'm simply saying that there are other issues.These are not my "personal" pet peeves, because frankly many of them don't bother me.  Selo's doesn't bother me much, I have 5% racial and my jboots hotkeyed.  I can outrun most anyone.  I solo'ed all the way to 80, including through RoK when most folks were struggling heavily.These are issues gleaned from reading through these forums and seeing the things that folks have said bother them.  I wrote it from "my" point of view as a Troubador, not from "my" point of view as a player.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>I'd like to see some CC ability return (especially at lower levels.) </p><p>At higher levels with AA points sunk in, both charm and Mez can be useful (charm less so.) However, at lower levels, before you get AAs in, they are pretty worthless. Maybe extend the length of charm to about double, and make mez recycle a little faster and lengthen it about 50%.</p>

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>As I think more about it personally I think something needs to be done about our power drain abilities in PVE.</p><p>I am sure they are plenty useful in PVP, however in a PVE environment they provide nothing of value.  I know they changed some of the illusionist/coercer power drain abilities into higher damaging abilities, but troubs stayed the same.  The "power into damage" portion of our vexing versus debuff is a Joke in PVE.</p>

[Liffy]

<p>Nice thread! I can see sense in much of what you ask for. For me the biggest issue is our speed. For me Bards should have the fastest speed <b>in and out</b> <b>of combat, bar none!</b> My 43 troubbie was making her way to DFC the other day and out of the 6 people in the group only two had slower personal runspeed than myself, and me with it fully specced in AA, and with +5% racial. This isnt just a get from A to B thing, in combat speed greatly enhances your ability to kite.</p><p>I'd like to see limited access to poisions. I dont think we should have the same access as rogues, access to maybe 1, possibly a second from t6-7. If that were to happend I'd like to see the bard poision in the AA line altered to an enhancement to the damage from our self buff when attacked, crank up the chance to proc and the damage. </p><p>I'd like to see an additional ranged CA for our bows! </p><p>Conc slots, would dearly love an aditional conc slot. I have to give serious consideration to what songs to have up at any given time and oftern find myself shuffling them about. </p><p>Love the idea about instruments. Charm slot seems to work for that one!</p>

[inshiningarmor]

<p>Bandit ...   Is there any class that you do like?   You are in Troub forum posting all the problems .... Mystic Forum posting all of the problems ... Illusionist forum posting all of the problems ....   </p><p>   Every class has it's good points and its bad points.   Bards and Chanters are amoung the MOST desired classes in the game bar none.    Every group wants them every raid wants 3 or 4 of each.   I am estatic having one of each as I can get a group in any zone ... I am invited to any raid ( even the uber guilds ) and I do not bother EVER sending across a LFG on chat channels.</p><p>   Bards are THE best class as is.</p>

[Antipalad]

Fix useless powertap abilities for PvE, that is all.

[Pogopuschel]

<cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Bandit ...   Is there any class that you do like?   You are in Troub forum posting all the problems .... Mystic Forum posting all of the problems ... Illusionist forum posting all of the problems ....   </p><p>   Every class has it's good points and its bad points.   Bards and Chanters are amoung the MOST desired classes in the game bar none.    Every group wants them every raid wants 3 or 4 of each.   I am estatic having one of each as I can get a group in any zone ... I am invited to any raid ( even the uber guilds ) and I do not bother EVER sending across a LFG on chat channels.</p><p>   Bards are THE best class as is.</p></blockquote><p>Oh no, someone wants do discuss issues he sees with the classes he plays on a message board. What has the world come to?And just because you don't consider a class perfect doesn't mean you don't like it.</p><p>If people wouldn't talk about class changes, bards would still be as shortbus as they were 18 months ago.</p>

[inshiningarmor]

<cite>Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Bandit ...   Is there any class that you do like?   You are in Troub forum posting all the problems .... Mystic Forum posting all of the problems ... Illusionist forum posting all of the problems ....   </p><p>   Every class has it's good points and its bad points.   Bards and Chanters are amoung the MOST desired classes in the game bar none.    Every group wants them every raid wants 3 or 4 of each.   I am estatic having one of each as I can get a group in any zone ... I am invited to any raid ( even the uber guilds ) and I do not bother EVER sending across a LFG on chat channels.</p><p>   Bards are THE best class as is.</p></blockquote><p>Oh no, someone wants do discuss issues he sees with the classes he plays on a message board. What has the world come to?And just because you don't consider a class perfect doesn't mean you don't like it.</p><p>If people wouldn't talk about class changes, bards would still be as shortbus as they were 18 months ago.</p></blockquote>umm 18 months or 3 years ago bards and chanters were still THE MOST needed class on raids. 

[Pogopuschel]

<cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Bandit ...   Is there any class that you do like?   You are in Troub forum posting all the problems .... Mystic Forum posting all of the problems ... Illusionist forum posting all of the problems ....   </p><p>   Every class has it's good points and its bad points.   Bards and Chanters are amoung the MOST desired classes in the game bar none.    Every group wants them every raid wants 3 or 4 of each.   I am estatic having one of each as I can get a group in any zone ... I am invited to any raid ( even the uber guilds ) and I do not bother EVER sending across a LFG on chat channels.</p><p>   Bards are THE best class as is.</p></blockquote><p>Oh no, someone wants do discuss issues he sees with the classes he plays on a message board. What has the world come to?And just because you don't consider a class perfect doesn't mean you don't like it.</p><p>If people wouldn't talk about class changes, bards would still be as shortbus as they were 18 months ago.</p></blockquote>umm 18 months or 3 years ago bards and chanters were still THE MOST needed class on raids. </blockquote><p>And why was that? Because they were rare.And why were they rare? Because they were no fun to play in a raid, because they were subpar overall weighing buffs + personal dps against half of the other classes, because (and this goes especially for a Troub) you had to [Removed for Content] yourself (potm) to give the most to the group.</p><p>AA changes, 20 extra AA points per tree and increased dps (remember, base autoattack damage was artificially lowered compared to e.g. rogues), more active utility were much needed to give variety to the class and not bore players to death after a week or two of raiding.</p>

[Mew]

I remember when I first started my troubador about 4 years ago how disappointed I was after about level 25.  All I needed to do was put up the buff songs and stick him on autofollow.  Then I could go have coffee, read a book, whatever and no one noticed any difference.   There have been some good improvements since those days so I dusted off my troubador and put him back in action a couple of months ago.  There are still some much needed improvements (although run speed is not high on my priority list since I don't PvP).  Sure, power drain is now useless against most mobs so I would like to see that changed.  I would like to see an improvement to our CC abilities.  I think the original adjustment to our charm duration was over done and it needs to be corrected.  I want to see instruments that are charm slot, range slot or shield slot items that do +dmg,+spell dmg, +% to other spells and CA's that are bard only items.  Another option is a lowering of casting and reuse times.  This is all standard stuff for mages in RoK.  But we are scouts.  We should not have to equip mage gear.

[Banditman]

Yes, I play a lot of classes.  If I had my wish, I'd have one of every class at Level 80.  However, I get my characters to their level the old fashioned way - I play them up.  No two boxed, power leveled, mentored protection miracles for me.  I play each and every one of my characters to the level cap the way it was intended.As such, I do learn an awful lot about the strengths and weaknesses of each class, and I can make comparisons which have a bit more perspective than many others.I love *all* of my characters.  I would certainly not have played them to their current levels if I didn't.  That doesn't mean that they don't have shortcomings.  It doesn't mean they don't have issues which I think, and others here think, need to be addressed.Yes, I took the initiative in a number of forums to put together those lists of issues where no one seemed to be stepping forward.  I want to see things made better for all of my characters.  Guilty as charged.  Cuff me.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> Bards and Chanters are amoung the MOST desired classes in the game bar none.   > Every group wants them every raid wants 3 or 4 of each. </p><p>I strongly disagree about the groups. Chanters are desired, troubadours are not.</p><p>Troubadours are only wanted when a group reaches a certain size. Most groups don't go around with 5 toons looking for one more. If a group has one man, he will be looking for a healer or tank. If a group is two or three men, they will be looking for a healer/tank/DPS. If they are four, they might take a bard if he responds to a send, but won't be looking for one.</p><p>That's why you almost never see: "RE group looking for a bard" on any chat. You see "looking for a tank", "looking for a healer", or "looking for DPS" a lot. You even see "looking for a chanter" at higher levels. You almost never see "looking for a bard" until it's raid time.</p><p>Every toon I played was more desired than my troubadour when grouping. I got random tells all the time on my mystic, paladin, and illusionist asking me to please join their group. Only happened once with Jeger.</p><p>Raiding is a different story.</p>

[Banditman]

That is not the experience I have had on my Troubador.  When I throw "L80 Troub LFG" in to the 70-79 channel (this is the most popular "lfg" channel on my server) I'm usually grouped up within 5 or 10 minutes.  Often I am the third player in the group, right after the healer and tank.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> That is not the experience I have had on my Troubador.  When I throw "L80 Troub LFG" in to the 70-79 channel </p><p>I didn't necessartily say grouping was HARD on the troub. Just that it was easier on almost any other toon.  A few questions: </p><p>Is the story different before you hit 80 and start running instances that require larger groups?How fast would a healer be grouped? Would it take 5-10 mins also? How about a brigand?How often do you see "group looking for bard?"How often do you get tells BEFORE you are looking for group, asking to join?How often are there two troubs in the group?</p><p>My responses are:</p><p>Yes, grouping after 80 is much easier for a troubadour.Healers and tanks find groups easier than bards even at 80. Healers often go anon to avoid tells.I sometimes see groups looking for bard at 80, but never before.I get tells all the time on healers and tanks. Very rarely on my troub.Two troubs in a group kinda sucks - seen it once and it was bad. Two DPS, Tanks, and healers are much better.</p><p>All-in-all, I group easier on my Mystic, Paladin, Brigand, and Illusionist than my troub. I'm not trying to say troubs are terrible - they just aren't the most wanted in groups. As I said, raids are a different issue.</p>

[Banditman]

That is true of 12 classes.If you aren't a healer or a tank, you're not "needed" for any group.  That's Everquest.Leveling is painful for all classes, let me assure you of that.  I have a L71 Guardian - GUARDIAN! - that has spent at least four hours the last week looking (unsuccessfully!) for a group.How often do you see "group looking for brigand" or any other class for that matter.  Yes, healers and tanks are the necessary evil.  If you want to be part of that crowd just roll up one of them.  Just be prepared to spend a lot of time solo'ing as you level up.This is not a Troubador issue.  This is just the way the game works.

[Mew]

I have to agree.  I have a 75 inquisitor (a plate healer for those of you who don't know - yeah, we are a rare bunch, too) and no one seems to want him for a group or raids.  My 60 troub can find DoF pickup groups about 50% of the time but they break up quick for lack of a tank or healer.  I keep my 80 necro around for guild raids.  What it comes down to is that if you are lower than 77 on my server (Unrest) you will be LFG for a long time.  That is because EQ2 is a mature game.  It has nothing to do with class.

[Kiara]

Stickied for you guys to make it easier to access.

[SleepingSleeping]

<p>Here are some ideas I would like to propose for PVE raiders! Of course criticism is welcome... keep in mind this isn't really targeting the higher top geared troubs, but rather the average "middle class" troub lol =) A revamp to our CA's may be in order. Often the case that the majority of Troubs find their autoattack deals damage MUCH greater than our CA damage. I would like to propose higher damage values or perhaps an added beneficial effect to each CA. ~Our power draining CA (Draining Incursion: T8 performs rather under par. Under par in not only damage, but also the actual power drain is more like a soft tickling effect against your target. The damage and power drain values should be raised to a more effective amount. ~Our AA ability "Bump" could use a shorter reuse to better match our follow-up CA "Nightstrike." A more appealing effect to the final Bard INT line (Heroic Storytelling) could be an increased chance to trigger more <b>rare</b> Heroic Opportunities. As of now, the current effectiveness buff is considered rather stale and unappealing compared to other lines. Bards are given the idea that we specialize in Heroic opportunities judging by the very first AA point required in our AA list, yet we are not provided with the tools or decent initiative to utilize such abilities to their fullest. Also, allow a small change to the requirement of an AA ability "Skald's Defense" to "Roundshield or Symbol." The zone, Shard of Hate, provides a wonderful item useable by Troubs called the "Hand of the Maestro." This is probably one of the first implemented symbols useable by Troubs and the Bard STA AA line should be adjusted to match such changes. Another spell attack, "Tap Essence" T8 also performs poorly when it actually comes to the power tap function that is implemented with the spell. A simple adjustment to increase the power returned would be of huge benefit for long endurance fights for groups/raid forces without Illy mythicals. Perhaps allow the power returned to affect the entire group of the Troubadour to better support, in affect this is somewhat similar to various Chanter abilities. A longer duration on our Charm ability would be a wonderful boost to our soloing capability without being too overpowering in any other situation. As of now, Dirges are capable of utilizing both their heal and rez's during raids... while our charm and mez have absolutely no bearing in any raid scenario. At least boost the duration of spells such as charm to make up for our inability to utilizing the same spells in raid scenarios. One of our current Troub buffs, "Song of Magic" T8 provides minimal casting effectiveness to the group. The resist rate scales drastically with higher tier mobs. Perhaps implement a direct effect that outright provides a reduced percentage chance to land debuffs against our opponent. The benefit of this speaks for itself! I would enjoy a new self buff that grants a small percentage to double spell attack, affecting only the Troubadours successful spell attacks (Similar to the spell double attack found on a Wizards mythical weapon). This buff can be optional to have up or down to better accommodate the Troubadors play style. We can even name the buff "Echo" to be cute =) There's a few other ideas buzzing around my head but most of which pretty much seems it would be too overpowering as of now =P</p>

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>Requiem of Reflection (in pve) is worthless.  Mobs don't cast spells enough to 1) trigger the buff, or 2) trigger the reflect on the offchance that the buff actually procced.</p><p>First a spell has to be cast on a group member, if so a 10% chance for the buff to be cast to reflect the next spell.  That buff only lasts 30 seconds.  so the mob has to cast another spell on that player in that time for anything of value to actually happen.  in PVE, this just does not happen.  Mobs dont cast that many spells, their AoE timers are all over 45 seconds, and on the off chance that they have 2 aoe's on seperate timers, the small fraction of a chance of the buff even proccing on the first spell is trivial at best.</p>

[Galim]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well, I was hoping someone else would jump in here and get the ball rolling, but I guess I will since no one else seems to be amenable.  The class issues post here is severely outdated, and it's time we gave it an update.  The last post was well over a year ago and suffice it to say things have certainly changed in the interim.  Developers are now paying a bit more attention to class forums, and particularly to things pertaining to class issues.  So, here's a few things I'd like to see looked at.  As more ideas come in I'll edit the post to keep it a bit more updated than the current sticky topic.1.  Countersong needs some sort of, for lack of a better word, "feedback".  I think we all agree that we can on occasion see a very obvious case of Countersong working, but it would be awfully nice if we could get something in our logs that says "Countersong did this".  Right now it's a little too hocus pocus for me, and I think for many Troubadors.</p><p><i><span style="color: #0000ff;">Agreed.  i dont think Countersong is borked (a little quicker refresh would be nice) but more indication that it has worked in the logs please.</span></i></p><p>2.  Upgrade Selo's!  Please, for the love of all that is EQ, can we just get an upgrade Selo's so we can once again be what everyone on the entire planet expects - the fastest thing on the face of Norrath?  Bar none.  We shouldn't have to resort to hotkeying our Jboots.  Really, we shouldn't.</p><p><i><span style="color: #0000ff;">I have no problem with run speed.</span></i></p><p>3.  Soloing problems are the bane of most Troubadors.  Can Troubadors solo?  Yes, they can.  However, it is no understatement to say that they are among the top of the most risky and difficult classes to solo with.  Can we get a little love?  I completely understand that this is a difficult slope to navigate.  Troubadors are VERY good in a group and any increase in buff power would make them quite the powerhouse in a group setting.  Some ideas . . .</p><p><i><span style="color: #0000ff;">I have no probelm soloing SOLO content.  </span></i></p><p>a)  Let Troubadors (and Dirges) use Poisons.  It's still a little baffling why Bards are the only Scouts that cannot.  Even if Bards were only allowed ONE poison, it would be of great help.</p><p><i><span style="color: #0000ff;">Im not bothered.  Its all about balance.  We have a ton of useful things in our arsenal that the other scouts dont have.  OF course we could get Poisons, then watch the assassins ask for Power regen, and the rangers ask for group spell proc.  etc.</span></i>b)  When solo, double the effectiveness of every non-AA buff Troubadors have.  This must absolutely drop when a Troubador joins a group, I agree.  Perhaps give us non concentration buff that does the job and automatically cancels when we join or form a group.</p><p><i><span style="color: #0000ff;">Why?  The solo mobs arent hard to kill, why do we need to be more powered than we are at the moment?</span></i>4.  Bards suffer greatly from their need to address not only +Spell damage, but +CA damage as well.  The number of items available with BOTH on them is quite low.  It would be very nice indeed if Bards were able to apply either +CA or +Spell to all of their abilities.  Instead of marking a difference, just apply all +damage to both kinds of abilities when the wearer is a Bard.</p><p><i><span style="color: #0000ff;">Again, Im happy with the gear and the hybrid class type that we are.  Although I seem to need to lean more towards melee lately to get a higher parse.</span></i>5.  We're Bards, and We'd like Instruments please.  Charm slot would be a great place for them thank you very much.  Let the crafters create them.  Make them use the rare harvests of the appropriate material for the item, and make them affect a very specific song.  For instance, a Drum that enhances Selo's or a Guitar that enhances Allegretto.  This way we'd have to choose a couple things to enhance, and probably carry around a few different instruments to swap out situationally.</p><p><i><span style="color: #0000ff;">I never really got the fascination for instruments, is this a legacy from EQ1? (I didnt play EQ1 im afraid).  The only people I think should be given instruments are the roleplayers...Make them only available on RP servers please devs.  Or we will end up like 'The Prancing Pony' in LOTRO.  I can see it now, 30 bards in Fish's Ale House in QH playing 'Hit Me Baby One More Time' on their lutes.</span></i>6.  Every Scout in the game save Bards have Offensive and Defensive stances.  It sure would be nice to have those same options.  A little +DPS would be great on an Offensive stance for Troubadors, and some Block and Parry on Defensive.  Removing the concentration on our self buff was a start, but it didn't really go far enough.</p><p><i><span style="color: #0000ff;">Yep, then we can parse like the Assassins, and everyone will want to roll a troub.  If you want to top the parse, you should have rolled a different class.  Todays parse topper is Assassin, tomorrows will be something else, so stay abreast of things!</span></i>7.  This is a big one, and we really need some out of the box ideas to fix it.  Right now, there is not a whole heck of a lot of difference between a very well played Troubador and a poorly played Troubador.  The delta between them is just so small that most people can't tell if a Troubador is any good or not.  I have no idea how to fix it, but it most certainly is a big problem.</p><p><i><span style="color: #0000ff;">I beg to differ, I have come across some crappy parsing troubs, troubs that dont know which buffs to use and troubs which refuse to Cap outside of their group on raids.  This isnt so bad if they took advice...I used to be crap at certain aspects btw (some would argue that I still am<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), so thx to all the guys that pointed me in the right direction <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  If people are moaning about how [Removed for Content] the troub class is, they probably have a poorly played troub.</span></i>8.  Please take a look at the duration of our Charm.  Even with full AA in it, the usefulness of the spell is not what it needs to be in order to maintain a spot on any hotbar.</p><p><i><span style="color: #0000ff;">Agree with this.  Charm is not much use.  I use it for pulling in tricky areas, and for bringing under control a mob briefly to regain some control over a fight, usually caused by a bad pull.  I think this was one which was over powered to start with, and the devs decided rather than just scrap it, they would make it practically unusable.</span></i>9.  Please take a look at our power drains.  Not long ago, the Enchanter power drains were converted to Direct Damage.  We'd truly appreciate the same consideration for our power drain spells.</p><p><i><span style="color: #0000ff;">Agreed again.  Not much use in pve.  Would be nice instead if it drained health whenever the mob autoattacked.  I would love that <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></i></p></blockquote>

[SleepingSleeping]

I agree Requiem of Reflection is in need reworking. (For PVE) ~Increase the proc rate of the current buff. ~Increase the duration of the triggered proc duration to a minute to be of actual use in your average encounter. ~Remove the requirement of class/racial casted spells to Requiem of Reflection for the <b>absorb</b> function. ~Can maintain the requirement of class/racial casted spells to Requiem of Reflection for the <b>reflect </b>function to avoid any overpowering situations. ~Better documentation that the spell has absorbed or reflected during an encounter for parser use.The buff is intended to provide group protection against various magical attacks. However, it does little to nothing in anything PvE related. From enemy AEs being spaced too widely apart to the actual triggered effect doing absolutely nothing to prevent the magical damage.

[Pogopuschel]

<p>You cannot change the proc chance or duration of RoR without making it completely overpowered for the current high end content. The sheer plethora of DoTs and detrimentals is insane, and often I see 3-5 procs in my maintained window.</p>

[Mew]

<span style="font-size: xx-small;color: #3366ff;">"5.  We're Bards, and We'd like Instruments please.  Charm slot would be a great place for them thank you very much.  Let the crafters create them.  Make them use the rare harvests of the appropriate material for the item, and make them affect a very specific song.  For instance, a Drum that enhances Selo's or a Guitar that enhances Allegretto.  This way we'd have to choose a couple things to enhance, and probably carry around a few different instruments to swap out situationally. </span><p><i><span style="font-size: xx-small;color: #3366ff;">I never really got the fascination for instruments, is this a legacy from EQ1? (I didnt play EQ1 im afraid).  The only people I think should be given instruments are the roleplayers...Make them only available on RP servers please devs.  Or we will end up like 'The Prancing Pony' in LOTRO.  I can see it now, 30 bards in Fish's Ale House in QH playing 'Hit Me Baby One More Time' on their lutes."</span></i></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Yes, those of us who played bards in EQ1 do miss our instruments.  To be honest, any piece of gear could do the buff job.  Its an appearance thing. Its cosmetic.  The crappy illusion fun spells we have just don't cut it.  We need some decent fluff!  And, BTW, Fish's Ale House is just not the place for a concert like that.  I think the docks in Enchanted Lands would be a better venue. There is also a pretty nice ampetheater and bar located in the market section of Sebilis that would be a good concert hall. </span></p>

[SleepingSleeping]

Proc chance could be overpowering, but I don't see how increasing the duration of the triggered proc will have any overpowering effects since it dissipates after the following magical hit no matter what. Increasing the duration will not change anything towards higher tier zones which already spam all sorts of hostile spells... but increasing the duration WILL benefit the lower tier zones in which mobs have AEs that trigger in intervals greater than 30 seconds. Percussion of stone is effective in all tier zones... I don't see why RoR shouldn't be.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> If you aren't a healer or a tank, you're not "needed" for any group.  That's Everquest.</p><p>I think that was exactly the point I was trying to make, and that we agree. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[RanmaBoyType]

<cite>Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You cannot change the proc chance or duration of RoR without making it completely overpowered for the current high end content. The sheer plethora of DoTs and detrimentals is insane, and often I see 3-5 procs in my maintained window.</p></blockquote><p>Which high end content would this be overpowering in?  Im only asking because right now our force has not passed Druushk/nexona in VP yet, so up to there I have not seen a single real positive use for this spell to take a conc slot.  Are the fights after druushk/nexona that AoE/Spell heavy? </p><p>Besides that the second point im trying to make is what fraction of troubs are actually in said content?  Why is this ability then only useful to them, and not the rest of the troub community?  The spell is aquired at what level 52?  Why then is its only real use at level 80 when fighting avatars?</p>

[Banditman]

I too would like to know exactly which content yields ANY significant procs of RoR . . . because I simply can't imagine where it might be.

[Pogopuschel]

<p>Trakanon, Byzola (SoH), Maestro (SoH) to name a few, and some avatars.</p><p>What a lot of these encounters have in common is that they either have multiple smaller AEs, or some sort of aura that DoTs on you or that is a detrimental, basically triggering RoR all the time.I'm not saying that RoR isn't useless for most Troubs, in T7 I absolutely hated that thing (until Avatar of Mischief where this and the arcane ward were a godsend).  I just meant to say that just upping the proc percentage will make Troubs on these encounters so cool that you'd want one in every group. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Blargydeath]

I would be pretty happy with the class with one or two particular fixes (not talking broad problems like spell resists and such).As has been suggested, make RoR chance to proc on any incoming hostile spell.  Won't proc from ticking detrimentals, and there aren't enough spells being cast usually to have any lag mechanics problems.  A flat percentage to absorb a magical AE wouldn't be too overpowering simply because it would never be reliable anyway.One other thing that would really make my life a ton easier, would be to grey out JCap and JCap macros on people that have the immunity on them.  This would take a ton of stress out of playing this class instead of getting the immunity messages.  Our damage is pretty decent (from the perspective of a non-twinked leveling newb, to a low RoK raider, up to VP and beyond), and while we may not have as much versatility as a dirge as far as song selection, it's still nothing to complain about.Other things are minor to make them more useful/give variety but nothing urgent or compelling like the two above: boost the utility of our charm somehow, boost the usefulness of Song of Magic a smidge, moving Bump timer to 20 seconds, making Draining Incursion worthwhile, etc.Really, I think RoR being made useful and JCap/macros greying out (PLEASE GOD THIS ONE) would be nice.

[kxizm]

The only group that wouldnt take a troub has to have another utility class already or /fail.People dont say "Group lf your troub pst kthx" ??!When have you seen "Group fl assassin" or "Group lf monk" I certainly dont see "Group lf any dps except troub".... ever. There are a few times where encounters are made easier by having one class of dps over another (ench on the sisters in maidens) but certainly not absolutely needed.A group is (generally) built this way.   -Tank (must)   -Healer (must)   -4 spots for DPS/utilityThats exactly |1| spot for tank.Thats exactly |1| spot for healer (/maybe/ 2)Thats exactly |4| spots left for a troub. given, if a utility class already occupies one of those spots, a troubs desirability in that group goes down significantly, but i doubt that happens with the frequency some here seem to indicate.thats more spots for a troub than for a healer or a tank. One tank joins the group and "sorry, no more tanks" same for healers. One dps joins, and chances are its not a troub, leaving 3 spots left before your troub is out.No way can you say that the reason bards and chanters are more wanted on a raid is because they are more rare because no one rolls them. .....That just makes no sense. Bards/chanters are desirable because of the utility they bring to the group/raid.<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>1.  Countersong needs some sort of, for lack of a better word, "feedback".  I think we all agree that we can on occasion see a very obvious case of Countersong working, but it would be awfully nice if we could get something in our logs that says "Countersong did this".  Right now it's a little too hocus pocus for me, and I think for many Troubadors.<span style="color: #0000ff;">I agree, it would help if Countersong had a little more log info, but i doubt this is going to be something keeping troubs from being in groups, going on raids, or being rolled.</span>2.  Upgrade Selo's!  Please, for the love of all that is EQ, can we just get an upgrade Selo's so we can once again be what everyone on the entire planet expects - the fastest thing on the face of Norrath?  Bar none.  We shouldn't have to resort to hotkeying our Jboots.  Really, we shouldn't.<span style="color: #0000ff;">Fluff. Getting from point A to point B 5% faster does nothing for your class. Nothing.</span>3.  Soloing problems are the bane of most Troubadors.  Can Troubadors solo?  Yes, they can.  However, it is no understatement to say that they are among the top of the most risky and difficult classes to solo with.  Can we get a little love?  I completely understand that this is a difficult slope to navigate.  Troubadors are VERY good in a group and any increase in buff power would make them quite the powerhouse in a group setting.  Some ideas . . .<span style="color: #0000ff;">Finding it difficult to solo? Lots of classes arent the easiest to solo with. In fact, theres only /one/ class thats the easiest to solo with (which class that may be is up for discussion, but not important here). Its simply a fact that some classes (troubs included) just arent going to solo as easy as other classes. suck it up or re-roll.</span>a)  Let Troubadors (and Dirges) use Poisons.  It's still a little baffling why Bards are the only Scouts that cannot.  Even if Bards were only allowed ONE poison, it would be of great help.<span style="color: #0000ff;">Its actually not a mystery why BARDS cannot use poisons. Theyre....bards! Musicians using poisons?</span>b)  When solo, <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;"><i><u><b>double </b></u></i></span>the effectiveness of every non-AA buff Troubadors have.  This must absolutely drop when a Troubador joins a group, I agree.  Perhaps give us non concentration buff that does the job and automatically cancels when we join or form a group.<span style="color: #0000ff;">I was hoping I misread that. I really was.DOUBLE???!? the buffs. Im sorry, I looked again and saw "SOE, I am having difficulty soloing with a character which I refuse to re-roll to /easymode class. Please give me an AE buff that will affect mobs as I run past them at 140% run speed due to the increase to Selo's I deserve because someone ran faster than me yesterday. This AE buff should kill any mob immediately when they come within range. This range should be larger for heroic mobs, as I want to take extra precautions to keep them from reaching me. Thanks in advance."/fixed</span>4.  Bards suffer greatly from their need to address not only +Spell damage, but +CA damage as well.  The number of items available with BOTH on them is quite low.  It would be very nice indeed if Bards were able to apply either +CA or +Spell to all of their abilities.  Instead of marking a difference, just apply all +damage to both kinds of abilities when the wearer is a Bard.<span style="color: #0000ff;">Find yourself a nice set of +CA gear. Then find +spell gear. Make sure you have some +CA +spell gear. Then based on your play style, wear whatever combination of that suits you. There is currently no need to consolidate +spell and +CA damage on gear.</span>5.  We're Bards, and We'd like Instruments please.  Charm slot would be a great place for them thank you very much.  Let the crafters create them.  Make them use the rare harvests of the appropriate material for the item, and make them affect a very specific song.  For instance, a Drum that enhances Selo's or a Guitar that enhances Allegretto.  This way we'd have to choose a couple things to enhance, and probably carry around a few different instruments to swap out situationally.<span style="color: #0000ff;">Fluff. There are a number of good charms for bards right now. Not an issue.</span>6.  Every Scout in the game save Bards have Offensive and Defensive stances.  It sure would be nice to have those same options.  A little +DPS would be great on an Offensive stance for Troubadors, and some Block and Parry on Defensive.  Removing the concentration on our self buff was a start, but it didn't really go far enough.<span style="color: #0000ff;">As said by Ballads, bards can buff to give themselves custom stances that are fine tuned to your play style and the situation at hand. No other class can fine tune their 'stances' like bards can.</span>7.  This is a big one, and we really need some out of the box ideas to fix it.  Right now, there is not a whole heck of a lot of difference between a very well played Troubador and a poorly played Troubador.  The delta between them is just so small that most people can't tell if a Troubador is any good or not.  I have no idea how to fix it, but it most certainly is a big problem.<span style="color: #0000ff;">Just because you cant tell the difference between a poor troub and a really poor troub doesnt mean that others cant tell the difference between a good troub and a bad one, even if they dont parse 4k <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></blockquote> Maybe there are real problems with troubs, but I'm not sure I've seen them here.     -Troubs can solo effectively. No, they dont roll through mobs like a steamroller, but they are soloable.     -Troubs <strike>can group effectively </strike>are really wanted by groups.     -Troubs <strike>can raid effectively </strike>have huge raid desirability.

[Banditman]

No, I personally don't find it at all hard to solo my Troubador.  If you actually kept up on this forum instead of just popping in and reading one or two threads you'd find that I'm like the poster child for Troubador's solo'ing.  I solo'ed mine all the way to 80, and for the most part never kited.  Yes, I occasionally was forced to kite yellow up arrows.  For the most part, I grabbed two good weapons and just beat the ever loving crap out of anything I came across.However, this isn't a thread about me.  It's a thread about what the overall class finds difficult or frustrating or problematic.  Many Troubadors find it difficult to solo, and unfortunately, in the process of leveling up, soloing is pretty much what you have to do.  It wasn't a problem for me, but it was/is for many.Many Troubadors find the lack of truly unique and outstanding run speed an annoyance.  It doesn't bother me a bit, I have about 60% run speed myself.  For a lot of others, this is a  hot button issue and it's not up to me or you to tell them they are wrong.Etc.Troubadors are one of the least played classes in the game, despite all of the "good" they bring to groups and raids.  That should tell you something.I don't think anyone is trying to argue that Troubadors aren't super desireable in groups or raids.

[Ballads]

2  issues I'd like to see fixed with our AA abilitys. The poison proc from Agi line cant be turned off, Tho the last thing we need is another buff to cast I hate not being able to turn a dot off on a mob with a harsh on damage reactive. Not only that but as a mezzzing class an always on dot can make our mezz near useless in soloing situations.  Sonic interference cant be cast "on the run" All of our other debuffs can why not this one ? With the recent fix to our buffs this has become the 1 utility spell i have to stand still to cast.

[Scar]

I think the most interesting way to add to the bard classes is to look at one of the most under-utilized components of EQ2, the Heroic Opportunities.If bards had a greater ability to control the HO system with cool options to use when soloing or in groups, it could address some of the issues raised in this thread. Some of the effects that exist in the HO system are dramatic indeed, complete group heals and powerful buffs. The effort involved in completing the complex HOs is almost never invested in my experience, since most players have discovered that they are most effective if they do what they need to do in combat without regard for HO advancement. Instead of a HO waiting for a group member to use the appropriate advancing spell or CA, the bard might be able to step in and advance it for them (perhaps for a lesser effect than a proper HO if that's needed for balance).A greater ability to use HO's would fit thematically I think, we're about music and orchestrating collaborative efforts. Special solo HOs might give greater defensive or offensive effects, mimicing stances to a degree while making us work for it. Special group HOs might help heal or cure, put up magic absorbing wards, provide stun or mez protection for a few seconds, etc.Basically this could give us more tactical options in a fight. It lends itself to scaling its effectiveness from solo to group play, so bards could be improved at soloing without neccessarily screwing up group/raid balance. And heck, it might be fun.

[Felis]

"<span class="postbody"> Sonic interference cant be cast "on the run" All of our other debuffs can why not this one ? With the recent fix to our buffs this has become the 1 utility spell i have to stand still to cast.</span> "Here lies the crux of one of my beefs with the spell lists. Earlier this year it was told that bards were getting a few more spells that weren't interruptable by moving. We're still missing a few that I use in every combat: The XXX (Mighty) Bellow series and the XXXXX (Steal) Essence series.Just making those two lines uninerruptable by moving (like the rest of the Trouby range) would make my playing easier.

[Jesters]

<p>hey guys, can't really think of anything that really doesnt work with bards however there are a few things i would LIKE to see changed</p><p>1) Potm -> yes its a beautiful spell isn't it? Well i would like to see it changed in a way that it counts as our dps i can live with it not being counted as out because i know how much my guild loves me in groups and raids but i would be nice to /moon all those high dps'rs when you out parse them haha</p><p>2) Bladedance -> in its current state nobody likes usinging it other than for very difficult encounters with very damaging aoes! change either the recast or the duration, and no im not saying make it last forever just long enough to recast it at least once a fight in say kor-sha (including trash!)</p><p>3)<cite>Wluil wrote:</cite> </p><blockquote><p>If we could have stances, what about stances that play off our hybrid qualities. A melee stance that reduces our spell effectiveness, but grants us DPS boosts, limited poison useage(?), and increased armor effectiveness. Or a spell-slinger stance that does somewhat of the opposite, while cranking up our spell crit. I think there's a lot that could be explored aside from the typical offensive/defensive.</p></blockquote><p>i actually really like that idea, i would be VERY VERY happy to trade our current self buff for something like that, dunno what anyone else thinks of it but i could really see that working,  </p><p>Melee - increases armor effectiveness by X%,   dps increased by X,  on successful melee attack caster casts <proc name here> on target of attack -deals X - X in mental dmg, all spells over 10 meters are reduced to 5, +spell dmg reduced by 500, +spell crit reduced by 25%</p><p>Spell - reduces armor effectiveness by X%, dps reduced by X, on successful spell attack caster casts <proc name> on target of attack -deals  X - X in mental dmg, cast speed increased by 10% or so, +spell dmg increased by 200, + spell crit increased by 15%</p><p>would be fun to at least try it =)     one thing i would NOT like to see is poisons for bards, just because im afraid of what would happen to the poison proc in the agi line (that and i dont really want to spend money on em haha)</p>

[Jeepned2]

<div>1.  Countersong needs some sort of, for lack of a better word, "feedback".  I think we all agree that we can on occasion see a very obvious case of Countersong working, but it would be awfully nice if we could get something in our logs that says "Countersong did this".  Right now it's a little too hocus pocus for me, and I think for many Troubadors.</div><div><span style="color: #33cccc;">Agree with this one. I almost never use it except on pulls. The recast time is so long I just don't look for it after the first cast.</span>2.  Upgrade Selo's!  Please, for the love of all that is EQ, can we just get an upgrade Selo's so we can once again be what everyone on the entire planet expects - the fastest thing on the face of Norrath?  Bar none.  We shouldn't have to resort to hotkeying our Jboots.  Really, we shouldn't.</div><div><span style="color: #33cccc;">Least of my worries. I still get to where I'm going fairly fast.</span>3.  Soloing problems are the bane of most Troubadors.  Can Troubadors solo?  Yes, they can.  However, it is no understatement to say that they are among the top of the most risky and difficult classes to solo with.  Can we get a little love?  I completely understand that this is a difficult slope to navigate.  Troubadors are VERY good in a group and any increase in buff power would make them quite the powerhouse in a group setting.  Some ideas . . .a)  Let Troubadors (and Dirges) use Poisons.  It's still a little baffling why Bards are the only Scouts that cannot.  Even if Bards were only allowed ONE poison, it would be of great help.b)  When solo, double the effectiveness of every non-AA buff Troubadors have.  This must absolutely drop when a Troubador joins a group, I agree.  Perhaps give us non concentration buff that does the job and automatically cancels when we join or form a group.</div><div><span style="color: #33cccc;">We where never intented to be great soloers. Although I admit it doesn't make sense to me that we are the only scouts that don't get to use poisoins, there are a lot of things in this game that doesn't make sense to me. But at this point I don't think letting us use poisons is going to happen. It would raise our DPS too much and the finger pointing wars would start. As much as I would like to have this, don't see it as a critical to have.</span>4.  Bards suffer greatly from their need to address not only +Spell damage, but +CA damage as well.  The number of items available with BOTH on them is quite low.  It would be very nice indeed if Bards were able to apply either +CA or +Spell to all of their abilities.  Instead of marking a difference, just apply all +damage to both kinds of abilities when the wearer is a Bard.</div><div><span style="color: #33cccc;">I don't have a problem with the split. I makes you decide which way you want to manage your Troub.</span>5.  We're Bards, and We'd like Instruments please.  Charm slot would be a great place for them thank you very much.  Let the crafters create them.  Make them use the rare harvests of the appropriate material for the item, and make them affect a very specific song.  For instance, a Drum that enhances Selo's or a Guitar that enhances Allegretto.  This way we'd have to choose a couple things to enhance, and probably carry around a few different instruments to swap out situationally.</div><div><span style="color: #33cccc;">Bard specific instruments would be kind of cool. They could replace the chicken foot and a the forked tongue. Plus it would make some crafters happy by giving them something else to craft.</span>6.  Every Scout in the game save Bards have Offensive and Defensive stances.  It sure would be nice to have those same options.  A little +DPS would be great on an Offensive stance for Troubadors, and some Block and Parry on Defensive.  Removing the concentration on our self buff was a start, but it didn't really go far enough.</div><div><span style="color: #33cccc;">Same arguement as with the poisons. Do we really need an offensive and Defensive stance with all of out options of different buffs? Again, nice to have but not real high on my "need" list.</span>7.  This is a big one, and we really need some out of the box ideas to fix it.  Right now, there is not a whole heck of a lot of difference between a very well played Troubador and a poorly played Troubador.  The delta between them is just so small that most people can't tell if a Troubador is any good or not.  I have no idea how to fix it, but it most certainly is a big problem.</div><div><span style="color: #33cccc;">Not a big problem with me. I'm a little selfish I guess. I worry about me and only me. I don't ever see myself in competition with other Troubs. And for the most part don't even know how well or poorly other troubs on my server are doing.</span>8.  Please take a look at the duration of our Charm.  Even with full AA in it, the usefulness of the spell is not what it needs to be in order to maintain a spot on any hotbar.</div><div><span style="color: #33cccc;">Up until recently my main was my Coercer. And for years I was complaining about the coercer's continual decline in CC abilities. I can tell you now, this is a dead issue. Aeralik does not like CC and I don't think he will be changing his mind any time soon.</span>9.  Please take a look at our power drains.  Not long ago, the Enchanter power drains were converted to Direct Damage.  We'd truly appreciate the same consideration for our power drain spells.</div><div><span style="color: #33cccc;">This is one that I think we might have a good chance of getting changed. Aeralik did change the enchanters power drains to damage abilities. This is probably number one on my wish list. I simply hate having abilities that are totally useless, and any power drain is totally useless to non-pvp players.</span></div><div></div><div></div><div><span style="color: #33cccc;">As fpr Bladedance. Never use anymore. Ever. First, to spec for Bladedance I have to take a pretty big hit on my DPS to get it. Not worth it. With all the hearlers running around now with group aoe avoid and some other scouts, I would rather just JC them on let them take care of the AoE avoid problem and me keep my DPS.</span></div><div></div><div><span style="color: #33cccc;">As for PotM changed to count for our DPS? LOL, not a chance. It would shoot our DPS through the roof (especially those who have Mythicals that make it a raid wide PotM). Every DPS class in game would have a heart attack and would complain like you have never seen before. Nice idea, but don't count on it.</span></div><div></div><div><span style="color: #33cccc;">Overall I think our class is in fairly good shape. At least we aren't Crusaders : ) . There are a few tweaks that would be nice to have, and yes I would like my DPS to be a little bit more like the Dirges (Right now I'm 400-1200 below our guild dirges, depending on the mob.) And yes, I do find it hard at times to find a group since many out there don't realize just what all a Troub brings to a group vs a Dirge. But overall, I think that our class is extremely fun to play and only needs a few tweats to greatly increase that fun.</span></div>

[Dajaan]

am i the only one wondering why our epic got a 3.5s delay?i'd love to have it changed to 4.0s

[peepshow]

<cite>Dajaan wrote:</cite><blockquote>am i the only one wondering why our epic got a 3.5s delay?i'd love to have it changed to 4.0s</blockquote>Never !!!I like it jus the way it is right now..Imagine if they change this, together with IB in VP and MS in SoH ??We would be fighting all scout's on the planet just to get a decent offhander..

[Tri]

needed tweaks  :being able to cast all spells while moving, especially eli which is spammed every 5 secsmust shorten cast times on charm and countersong, wouldn't hurt on mez toorecast time of stealth attack should go from 20 secs to 30 secs with an increasein damage and debuff. Only if a skill a la bump is kept with the new AAs.If there is not a quick way to be stealthed anymore either get rid of the CA orhave it on a much longer reuse but with significant damage and or debuff.defence buff should add either a lot more defence or something extra likea miti boost, a % damage reduction or extra avoid in order to not only bring it in linewith the dirge buff but also for it to not be a useless buff.And get rid of that joke AA wich grants an extra 3 defenceon the lvl 70 master for the low cost of 8 AAsthe group hate reducer buff procs a 150 dehate when a non fighter is damaged,this should be either a much higher number or a % chance of a hate postion decrease,the second option could have a negative impact on pvp.add an encounter or an AE mezz in order for troubs to have acess to that group nichespot hold by enchanters. As it is now groups would only want a troub over a dirge justto help convince an enchanter to come along.the spell stoneskin, requiem of reflection should have a direct chance of absorbing a spell attack,instead of having to proc on a spell in order to absorb the next one.Reduce the breaking chance of the sole snare troubs have, or give them an unbreakable oneraise damage on bow Ca, it does less damage than a regular attack with a mastercrafted bowbeing able to use poisons would bring a small increase in dps when grouping / raidingas well as increased survivability when soloing thanks to the snares and stuns.

[Slotor]

<cite>kxizm wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only group that wouldnt take a troub has to have another utility class already or /fail.People dont say "Group lf your troub pst kthx" ??!When have you seen "Group fl assassin" or "Group lf monk" I certainly dont see "Group lf any dps except troub".... ever. There are a few times where encounters are made easier by having one class of dps over another (ench on the sisters in maidens) but certainly not absolutely needed.A group is (generally) built this way.   -Tank (must)   -Healer (must)   -4 spots for DPS/utilityThats exactly |1| spot for tank.Thats exactly |1| spot for healer (/maybe/ 2)Thats exactly |4| spots left for a troub. given, if a utility class already occupies one of those spots, a troubs desirability in that group goes down significantly, but i doubt that happens with the frequency some here seem to indicate.thats more spots for a troub than for a healer or a tank. One tank joins the group and "sorry, no more tanks" same for healers. One dps joins, and chances are its not a troub, leaving 3 spots left before your troub is out.No way can you say that the reason bards and chanters are more wanted on a raid is because they are more rare because no one rolls them. .....That just makes no sense. Bards/chanters are desirable because of the utility they bring to the group/raid.<cite></cite><blockquote></blockquote> Maybe there are real problems with troubs, but I'm not sure I've seen them here.     -Troubs can solo effectively. No, they dont roll through mobs like a steamroller, but they are soloable.     -Troubs <strike>can group effectively </strike>are really wanted by groups.     -Troubs <strike>can raid effectively </strike>have huge raid desirability.</blockquote>All highend group zones require a chanter, coercer or illus. And if they don't it's because they have a super tank with super healers and a dirge. From my exp any grp that has a chanter doesn't need/want a troub. We don't do anything for a grp that makes us desirable that a coercer/illus doesn't do better. For example mez, power regen, hate modifier. Now if you take a look at dirges, tanks love them, and I am constantly asked by my tank friends to reroll dirge because a troub just isn't tha helpfull to a grp, even if I do out parse most dps classes. In short, sure Troubs are great for raids, but there is only so much content to raid for those that don't go after avatars, and even then i'm sure there are times where a troub would like to join one of them nizara/re2/veksar groups. The thing that gets me is this is such an old battle for troubs and I don't have any hope of these problems being solved, so i'm stuck either playing my templar in groups or i'm 2box'n my zerk/temp. If I could I would always play my troub though.

[kxizm]

<cite>Slotor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>All highend group zones require a chanter, coercer or illus. And if they don't it's because they have a super tank with super healers and a dirge. From my exp any grp that has a chanter doesn't need/want a troub. We don't do anything for a grp that makes us desirable that a coercer/illus doesn't do better. For example mez, power regen, hate modifier. Now if you take a look at dirges, tanks love them, and I am constantly asked by my tank friends to reroll dirge because a troub just isn't tha helpfull to a grp, even if I do out parse most dps classes. In short, sure Troubs are great for raids, but there is only so much content to raid for those that don't go after avatars, and even then i'm sure there are times where a troub would like to join one of them nizara/re2/veksar groups. The thing that gets me is this is such an old battle for troubs and I don't have any hope of these problems being solved, so i'm stuck either playing my templar in groups or i'm 2box'n my zerk/temp. If I could I would always play my troub though.</blockquote>lol then get a supertank <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />No highend zone 'requires' a chanter. Having one in maidens certainly makes the sisters easier, but theyre not a 'must have.' Chelsith doesnt need a mezzer, neither does voes, coa, or veksar. Even RE2 is very doable without a chanter. Of course groups are going to go smoother with a 'super tank with super healers' but that shouldnt be a reason troubs arent in the group lol.what did you mean by "Troubs are great for raids, but there is only so much content for those that don't go after avatars?"Im in a guild that just cleared VP and we have two troubs in pretty much every raid, and ive seen many posts stating that two troubs is desirable for a raid.imo, find a group of ppl who know the classes they play and do instances with them. Thats way better than running instances with tanks you dont know. lol just the other day i didnt take my own advice here and grabbed a tank from lvl chat and took the group into veksar. The tank never parsed over 300 the whole time we were in there (which wasnt that long tbh lol). So find good tanks and good healers to grp with you. even if you just have a good tank and good healer, you shouldnt have much trouble finding good dps to bring.

[Slotor]

Or give us any option to cc more then one mob every 15seconds? Why are so many people against giving troubs more cc?I know get creative, mez one, charm one, get agro on another and snare/kite it.But why not just give us an ae mez? Don't chanters get instante cast blue ae mez's along with grp mez's, single target mez's, stuns plus some really nice dps?O yea... we run fast~

[Leisu]

My issues...Fix Power Ballad or the AA's for it to actually regen mana at a meaningful rate. As it stands right now, I don't even play the song when I'm in a group with an enchanter because their power regen abilities keep a group full on thier own. End result is bards are as much of a power regen class as troubs are a mezzing/cc class...Change power drain portion of Spells to direct damage. I mean seriously. They already did this with the enchanters, why wouldn't they do the same across the board.As others have mentioned, every other scout has stances, why don't we? It sucks to have to spec your AA's just to get something that resembles an offensive stance.Change Countersong to be a raidwide aoe avoid or something. This ability is stupid as is and only comes in handy on all over 2-3 encounters I can think of and is never necessary for the encounter. I just cast it because I can and what's worse is I can't even tell if it did anything.Give some other ability than Bump or AA abilities that puts us into stealth. Again, having to spec your AA's a certain way to make a non-AA CA feasible to use is weak.Maybe have a temp group DPS buff? Dirges get a DPS mod song AND CoB. Best of both worlds for them. Something comparable would be nice.Give us something to be semi-desireable to instance groups. As it stands, all of our buffs are geared towards casters.....too bad casters don't tank instances. People don't want a troub for an instance group. If given the option, even I'd take a dirge over a troub. Oh wait, we can increase the defense of group by 30ish...big deal. We can do PotM....which is useful in a raid but not so much in instance groups. It just sucks to have to switch to a different class outside of raids to play for the simple fact that we are much less desireable than our counterpart.Thats all for now...

[kxizm]

<cite>Slotor wrote:</cite><blockquote>But why not just give us an ae mez? Don't chanters get instante cast blue ae mez's along with grp mez's, single target mez's, stuns plus some really nice dps?</blockquote>only illys get the AE insta mezz. its on a long reuse timer tho, and the duration is pretty short (6s). Coercers get an insta stun instead of the mezz. you're right on all the other accounts tho - AE mezz, single mezz, and stuns.just fyi.

[Slotor]

<cite>Leisure@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>My issues...Fix Power Ballad or the AA's for it to actually regen mana at a meaningful rate. As it stands right now, I don't even play the song when I'm in a group with an enchanter because their power regen abilities keep a group full on thier own. End result is bards are as much of a power regen class as troubs are a mezzing/cc class...Change power drain portion of Spells to direct damage. I mean seriously. They already did this with the enchanters, why wouldn't they do the same across the board.As others have mentioned, every other scout has stances, why don't we? It sucks to have to spec your AA's just to get something that resembles an offensive stance.Change Countersong to be a raidwide aoe avoid or something. This ability is stupid as is and only comes in handy on all over 2-3 encounters I can think of and is never necessary for the encounter. I just cast it because I can and what's worse is I can't even tell if it did anything.Give some other ability than Bump or AA abilities that puts us into stealth. Again, having to spec your AA's a certain way to make a non-AA CA feasible to use is weak.Maybe have a temp group DPS buff? Dirges get a DPS mod song AND CoB. Best of both worlds for them. Something comparable would be nice.Give us something to be semi-desireable to instance groups. As it stands, all of our buffs are geared towards casters.....too bad casters don't tank instances. People don't want a troub for an instance group. If given the option, even I'd take a dirge over a troub. Oh wait, we can increase the defense of group by 30ish...big deal. We can do PotM....which is useful in a raid but not so much in instance groups. It just sucks to have to switch to a different class outside of raids to play for the simple fact that we are much less desireable than our counterpart.Thats all for now...</blockquote>I second this post and could not have said it better.