Current Bruiser Issues

[Quicksilver74]

<p>Current Bruiser Issues:</p><p>   Due to multiple suggestions from developers that all classes keep an up to date "Issues" thread on their respective forums, I figured I'd make a new thread that can hopefully get stickied and the old thread can get removed, as it is mostly out of date.  I've been exclusively playing bruiser as my main since launch, so I take the direction of the bruiser class very seriously.  As a result, here are the issues that are at the forefront of my mind and our discussions on these boards.  A sticky would be great. </p><p>Bruiser Issues:</p><p><strong>Hate - </strong>Lack of Passive Hate</p><p>  When we go defensive, our hit rate plummets, and therefore our aggro falls far too low.  We need some form of passive hate based on avoidance.  An example would be "Whenever the bruiser Deflects, he gains 1,500 hate" or something similar perhaps attached to our stances or added to manhandle. </p><p><strong>Altruism</strong> - Self usage?   Please? </p><p>   Being an avoidance tank, we run the greatest risk of random death, due to spike damage.   While altruism is a nice ability, we never get to use it on ourselves.   Giving us the option of putting it on anyone, including ourself, would make the ability better, as well as increase our survivability greatly.   All plate tanks have some form of self save vs death, except brawlers, and this would be the perfect fix for that.    </p><p><strong>Strikethrough</strong> - Killing us. </p><p>   Raid mobs are striking through way too much and destroying us when we are supposed to be an avoidance tank.  mobs have a 25% chance outright, to strikethrough, and when you toss in the fact that we really only have uncontested avoidance versus these raid mobs to begin with, we end up with very little avoidance at all.  We need a way to still be an avoidance tank while mobs are cheating and using strikethrough.   </p><p><strong>Drag and Divide and Conquer</strong> - Useless in TSO</p><p>  Since TSO, almost every single raid mob in the game is now completely immune to Drag.  Also the lock portion of Divide and Conquer.  Even most trash mobs.  This is unacceptable.  It is understandable for <em>SOME</em> named mobs to be immune to this type of effect, but every single raid named and MOST raid zone trash?  That is ridiculous.  I realize that devs don't want us to trivialze mobs that aggro drop, but there are only a handful of mobs that actually do that, and yet, nearly every TSO mob has this immunity.   Fix drag and the lock portion of D&C, or replace them with something that we can actually use.  These need to work on raid trash as well as MOST NAMED mobs. </p><p><strong> Lightning Fists</strong> -  Weak CA needs retooling.</p><p>   Our Lightning Fists line of CAs is one of those abilities that simply hasn't been improved enough from tier to tier.  At low levels it is a cute little boost, but at high levels it's damage is insignificant.   Many have suggested changing this ability to allow it to properly scale up with new levels and content.  Suggestions include turning it into an AoE proc, making it somehow allow us to flurry on one or more attacks, or seriously increasing it's damage. </p><p> <strong>Offensive Stance</strong> - Needs to Proc AoE</p><p>   The Engulf Proc should affect multiple mobs instead of just one.   This will aid bruisers in being an AoE tank. </p><p> <strong>Staggering Blow - </strong>Suggest changing this to an AoE attack.</p><p>   If Bruisers are supposed to be the AoE tanking half of the brawlers, then we need more AoE tools.   Staggering Blow is single target, and lets face it, we have PLENTY of single target snap aggro available to us already.  We need something that can grab multiple encounters.   Making this attack damage and increase hate positions as a blue AoE would make it much better, and help bruisers fit better into the role of an AoE tank. </p><p><strong>Crane Twirl and Mantis Bolt</strong> - Underpowered in today's game</p><p>   These DPS abilities from the Brawler lines of Stamina and Wisdom, were nice when they first launched.   The problem is, they have not scaled up over the years to match the increase in players' DPS.  Both of these abilities need an upgrade to damage and possibly an upgrade to proc percentage.   Additionally, Mantis Bolt has always been broken by parsing for far less damage than Crane Twirl, on both AoE and Single Target fights.  This is because every point spent in Mantis Bolt does NOT increase it's damage, and it certainly should.  Both of these procs should be over 1,200 damage at lvl 80 in today's game. </p><p><strong>Lack of Utility</strong> - No raids need a bruiser</p><p>   24 classes, 24 raids slots, yet there are typically 3 illusionists, 2 dirges and 2 troubadours in a raid.  Bruisers do not bring anything to a raid that makes them desirable as a class.  There are many suggestions, a popular choice would be a group Double Combat Art  buff.</p><p><strong>No Group Buff</strong> - We offer nothing to a group (Not counting our weak raid buff)</p><p>    Compared to other fighter classes, bruisers do not give anything at all to their group.   Brawlers as a whole are weak in this area, but monks at least have a group feign death.  Bruisers do nothing that affects their group, thereby limiting the usefulness of the bruiser. </p><p>Again, there are many suggestions for group buffs.  Knockout, Chi, Stone Deaf, and Close Mind are all great examples of current abilities that could be modified to apply to a group to increase the usefulness of the bruiser.  Additionally, many bruisers cry out for our old group DPS buff to come back to us.  We were once known for buffing our group's DPS, now we no longer have that ability and we'd love to have it back. </p><p><strong>Temporary Mitigation Buffs</strong> - Spirit line should be until cancelled, and Stun Mit buff is useless</p><p>   We are a fighter class, but in terms of tanking we are one of the weakest.  We are often killed as soon as we try to grab agro on a raid, and groups and raids generally prefer a guardian or other plate tank.  If the bruiser Spirit line was changed to be "Until Cancelled" that would be a nice upgrade, allowing us to compete more with other plate tanks.  Additionally, our Stun Mitigation buff (Rock Skin) is almost never used simply because it is just plain not worth it.  Remove the stun component, but leave it temporary... or perhaps change it to help our survivability more by making it avoidance based.  An Uncontested% deflection bonus for 30 seconds would be far more useful than more mitigation that stuns us.  Additionally it has been suggested that Rock Skin should be removed altogether and replaced with some extra form of AoE aggro.   Another Blue AoE would be an excellent substitution for Rock Skin. </p><p><strong>Bruiser AA Intercede Line</strong> - Underpowered</p><p>   Every other AA point that modifies an ability, also modifies it's upgrades.  There should really only be one option for intercede/intercept/intervene, and upgrading it would upgrade all 3.  This line need to be changed also to augment our avoidance buff, granting something more usefull, perhaps a permanent damage absorption effect.  Additionally the last ability is underpowered.  It would be nice to see Soak Hit increased in effectiveness, or completely changed to be a more significant utility bonus.  An excellent example of a good change would be to change Soak Hit, into an activatable Stoneskin buff, much like close mind, but make it for melee.  This will help our survivability, and also fits in line with the name, allowing it to "Soak up" the hit, or hits. </p><p><strong>ITEMIZATION</strong> -  Lack of Mitigation on tanking gear</p><p>  Mobs today are hitting harder than ever, and plate tanks are getting huge mitigation boosts on some of their armor this expansion.   Bruisers however, are seriously lacking mitigation now.  With an increased dependancy on critical mitigation, we can be forced out of wearing certain high mitigation items from the RoK expansion, (Defribulating Shozoku, Wristplates of the Dark Lord, etc.) and there are not any similar high mit items available to bring us remotely close to plate tanks now.  Avoidance tanking is only good until you get hit for 23K non-crit. </p><p><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><strong>Brawler STR Line</strong> - unfair that line is only for leveling.</span></p><p><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">   Any bruiser (or monk), who has done their epic weapon quest, has only 4 available lines if they wish to use their epic weapon.   The strength line is used primarily for brawlers to level up, and not have to upgrade weapons often, or at all.   Every bruiser, upon getting past 70, has weapons available to them that greatly outperform the bonus of the strength line.  As a result, the majority of high level bruiser avoid the STR line like the plague, as it is not a viable option.  </span></p><p><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">    It should be changed to scale down if weapons are equipped.  5%DPS and 2-3 double attack per point for the 3^rd ability is fine.   </span></p><p><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"> </span></p><p><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><strong>Raid Buff</strong> - Seriously underpowered</span></p><p><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">   Taunt/Detaunt effectiveness and CA damage are insignificant to a raid, when compared to what other classes can bring.  Bruisers need a raid buff that is as or more useful than the monk raid haste and spell haste.  Additionally, the taunt effectiveness would only be useful if it added hate positions to taunts and detaunts rather than just a percentage.  </span></p><p><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">   The popular suggestion would be to change our raid buff to DPS mod and Re-Use Mod.  This would match up with the monk raidbuff. </span></p><p><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><strong>Divide and Conquer </strong>- High resistability plus interrupted while moving.</span></p><p><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">   Divide and Conquer seems to have a very high resist rate, even at master 1.  It is frustrating when a bruiser needs to throw up some snap aggro, and it takes 3-4 castings of this spell because it gets resisted over and over.   The resitability tends to defeat the purpose.  This spell often ceases to really be a snap aggro ability because of the long delay in trying to get it to land.  Additionally, this combat art acts like a spell, in thet we must stand still to cast it.   This is our only combat art that requires us to stand still, and that is also frustrating.  Changing this ability to be able to cast on the move would be excellent.  </span></p><p>These are the top issues from my observations and from what I have gathered from other threads on this forum. </p><p> Anyone wishing to reply, please add more issues that I may have overlooked. </p>

[Aull]

<p>Excellent thread Crabbok. Just gonna copy some of your comments and give my opinion if you do care.</p><p><b>Brawler STR Line</b> - unfair that line is only for leveling.</p><p>   Any bruiser (or monk), who has done their epic weapon quest, has only 4 available lines if they wish to use their epic weapon.   The strength line is used primarily for brawlers to level up, and not have to upgrade weapons often, or at all.   Every bruiser, upon getting past 70, has weapons available to them that greatly outperform the bonus of the strength line.  As a result, the majority of high level bruiser avoid the STR line like the plague, as it is not a viable option.  </p><p>    It should be changed to scale down if weapons are equipped.  5%DPS and 2-3 double attack per point for the 3^rd ability is fine.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I am in total agreement here with you for both brawlers on this. This line is currently what a model T would be like in comparison to todays Ford vehicles. Upgrades are a must and just as you have posted isn't a viable option to bruisers who have great weapons they have quested hard for but have to reset aa's just so points are not being wasted. Chi is the only good thing about the line if weapons are being used. but with a huge recast timer it isn't a constant dps increaser.</span></p><p><b>Raid Buff</b> - Seriously underpowered</p><p>   Taunt/Detaunt effectiveness and CA damage are insignificant to a raid, when compared to what other classes can bring.  Bruisers need a raid buff that is as or more useful than the monk raid haste and spell haste.  Additionally, the taunt effectiveness would only be useful if it added hate positions to taunts and detaunts rather than just a percentage.  </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">The taunt/detaunt is modest. I am glad we have this and nothing at all, but like you said we will need something more beneficial for this to become better for our raid buff. My problem with this is that this expansion didn't even raise the percentage from 20% to 25% on the master combat art. I mean come on 20% is what we had in EOF and 5% more would be better if it all stays the same. Oh the +112 to combat arts is ok but just not strong enough. Maybe adding with the +112 would be a 30 dps mod would be a step in the right direction to assist in raid buff direction.</span></p><p><b>Lack of Utility</b> - No raids need a bruiser</p><p>   24 classes, 24 raids slots, yet there are typically 3 illusionists, 2 dirges and 2 troubadours in a raid.  Bruisers do not bring anything to a raid that makes them desirable as a class.  There are many suggestions, a popular choice would be a group accuracy buff. </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Absolutely. A bruiser will most generally be turned down or will be a last resort to fill any spot. I have been asked to leave a raid so a berserker could fill the spot better!!! [Removed for Content]!!!</span></p><p><b>No Group Buff</b> - We offer nothing to a group (Not counting our weak raid buff)</p><p>    Compared to other fighter classes, bruisers do not give anything at all to their group.   Brawlers as a whole are weak in this area, but monks at least have a group feign death.  Bruisers do nothing that affects their group, thereby limiting the usefulness of the bruiser.  </p><p>Again, there are many suggestions for group buffs.  Knockout, Chi, Stone Deaf, and Close Mind are all great examples of current abilities that could be modified to apply to a group to increase the usefulness of the bruiser.  Additionally, many bruisers cry out for our old group DPS buff to come back to us.  We were once known for buffing our group's DPS, now we no longer have that ability and we'd love to have it back.  </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I think this one is the biggest problem that a bruiser has as a class cause we just to not have one. Want utility? We need a group buff then. Anything would be nice either it be a group dps mod increaser, accuracy buff, lessens power consumption by 20% buff, or even a 5% to reuse timers. Way to many ideas to list for this one.</span></p><p><b>Temporary Mitigation Buffs</b> - Spirit line should be until cancelled, and Stun Mit buff is useless</p><p>   We are a fighter class, but in terms of tanking we are the weakest.  We are often killed as soon as we try to grab agro on a raid, and groups and raids generally prefer a guardian or other plate tank.  If the bruiser Spirit line was changed to be "Until Cancelled" that would be a nice upgrade, allowing us to compete more with other plate tanks.  Additionally, our Stun Mitigation buff is almost never used simply because it is just plain not worth it.  Remove the stun component, but leave it temporary... or perhaps change it to help our survivability more by making it avoidance based.  An Uncontested% deflection bonus for 30 seconds would be far more useful than more mitigation that stuns us.  </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Huge truth here cause we are definately weakest in tanking. Spirit line being until canceled would be a great move and I have been thinking the same thing about that. So this is a great call. I have been experimenting with the rock skin here lately trying to make this work. I just can't see using it for the simple fact of being both stunned/stifled and not being able to at least move once the mobs has gone after the healer. I cannot find use for the ability as it currently stands and removing the stun and allowing taunts but not combat arts would be an ok move I think.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Another thing that I find interesting is why do we need the fear anymore? Anyway great thread done Crabbok and thanks for taking the time to post it. See you all soon.</span></p>

[Quicksilver74]

Any chance a mod can sticky this in place of the old "Compiled Bruiser Issues" thread?  I'd like to improve the chance that a dev will read this and our concerns will get to the right people. 

[Novusod]

Nice job Crabbok, we have debated this Issues for at least six months now and you have a good synopsis of what is needed through reasonable solutions supported by the community.<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><b>Lack of Utility</b> - No raids need a bruiser<p>   24 classes, 24 raids slots, yet there are typically 3 illusionists, 2 dirges and 2 troubadours in a raid.  Bruisers do not bring anything to a raid that makes them desirable as a class.  There are many suggestions, a popular choice would be a group accuracy buff. </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Absolutely. A bruiser will most generally be turned down or will be a last resort to fill any spot. I have been asked to leave a raid so a berserker could fill the spot better!!! [Removed for Content]!!!</span></p></blockquote>What do you mean [Removed for Content]? A Berserker is just an all around superior class to the bruiser. They have better DPS than us, they can tank epics better than us, and they have better utility to boot. I would question the sanity of any raid leader that didn't sit a bruiser in favor of a zerker.

[Aull]

Now that you put it that way Novusod I couldn't agree with you more cause it is the flat out trueth.

[XustinuS]

+1M.... i totally agree to all those written... no way to get near scout dps even warrior dps with that awsome buckler line and really hard to tank high lvl mobs with avoidance tanking especially talking about T8

[Quicksilver74]

Updated to add issues with Divide and Conquer. 

[Ilucide]

Thanks for getting a new thread together!

[Gungo]

Even a 10% accuracy buff would be hot, if it effected all melee/spells/taunts. This would also help with the divide and conquer resist issue. make our mit buff permanant and stun mitigation buff at most root and i will be happy with the class.

[Aull]

<p>Thanks Ilucide for dropping in! We will do are best to offer suggestions and not get this thread de-railed. Thanks again.</p>

[Thoral]

<p>I started my EQ2 career with a bruiser because I loved the concept, but I have to admit that my character doesn't feel very bruiser-ish anymore.  I have since rolled a guardian and leveled him to 80, and if a raid already has an MT, I still wanna bring my guardian because he is way more useful to the raid.</p><p>And most importantly, your sig is the best ever, Crabbok.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p>lol thanks Thoral, and thanks to Ilucide for dropping in.   It means alot to us having a post from a red name in here.  </p><p>  Now if I could just manage to get this thread sticked in place of the old one....</p>

[heelena]

first of all thanks crabbok to put so much energy into bruising...monks are needed in raids not because thier dps, cause there buffs. as a bruiser u have a realy hard time to get dps as high as possible. whitout a proper group a bruiser is like a fart in a firewall. we need something that helps us, befor we can think about helping a raid.. our problem is that we need to land ca's on the target and they need to hit hard. no self haste, no self dps anymore, so the bruiser is based on gear, group an playerskills...  and there is the problem. in every raid u can put instead of a bruiser a scout and he will do better dps in the same spot. i dont know what would be the best option that brings us back into "raidneeded" but i think a well debuff on the mob would be fine.

[Miapa]

Here is a list of issues of which I think are important to a Bruiser and solutions to each issue.<ol><li>Are we a DPS, Tank or Utility class?  Unfortunately, we seem to be half and half between DPS and Tanking classes with nearly zero utility.  I have a few ideas for this.  Each solution below should be separate from each other as I don't think they can be implemented with each other.</li><ol><li> Maybe one solution is to allow the Bruiser to choose their direction (either DPS or Tank) by selecting an AA set that allowsus to focus on either DPS or Tanking.  If the person focuses on DPS then it should severely cripple their ability to Tank; if they focus their AAs on Tanking then it should severely cripple his or her ability to do DPS.</li><li>Or maybe we are just Tanks.  We need the ability to Tank raid content on par with other fighters (plate-wearers, for example).  We rely heavily on our avoidance yet most plate fighters can easily match our avoidance; we are not even in the same ballpark when it comes to comparing our mitigation with a plate-tank.  We are supposed to be tanks yet cannot tank any raid encounters unless we have the very best equipment (and even with this equipment, we can only tank low-tier raid zones).</li><li>Or maybe we are just DPSers.  We seriously lack in this department when compared to scouts, mages and even other fighters (and even Monks).  What I propose to increase our DPS is for a combo system with our combat arts.  If we perform a certain sequence of combat arts in a limited amount of time it should trigger a debuff or some massive damage hit on the mob.  It is true that we do have one Combat Art like this, but it is very simple and we have only one.  I know Scouts/Mages will complain if we reach them in DPS, but I think it would be fair if it was slightly difficult to perform (ie, frontal attack then back attack then side attack, for example).  Bruisers are martial artists and this kind of system is right up our alley.</li><li>Or maybe we just stay the same with added utility.  So many utility ideas have already been put forth (raid/group-wide knockout combo, raid/group-wide Chi, etc), so I won't say anything extra on this point.</li></ol><li>Pulling.  As with EQ1, I think one of the jobs a Brawler should have is pulling (group or raid) mobs.  I would like to see Bruisers/Brawlers to be able to pick and pull single targets out of a cluster of mobs without agroing and training the rest of the mob's friends.  Pet casters seem to be the main pullers in the game, sacrificing their pets to grab mobs.  It would be really cool to see Brawlers to be able to single-pull an epicx4 mob out of a large cluster of other mobs =)</li><li>Movement speed.  Our achievement starter in the brawler line gives us a 5% run-speed boost.  The starters seem to have something to do with the main idea of each archetype (ie, Rogues can steal coin, casters can increase their nuke/heal crit chance, etc) yet Brawlers can run faster?  I wouldn't mind this too much if it fit in with out archetype more.  Perhaps we could gain other innate in-combat run speed buffs, either permanent or short-duration.</li></ol>I know some people probably won't like some of my ideas, but I am just trying to put some forth.

[Aull]

<p>Interesting post Miapa and I can agree with most of your post. I do not think for a minute that a bruiser is a utility class at all. Bruisers do not have anything that can benifit a group at this time that other fighters do not already have. I do believe that bruisers were meant to be tanks first and foremost. However in reality bruisers are last of all the tanks in tanking survivability. Now since we are last in survivability a person would think that bruisers would be better dps than other fighters. Well that too is not correct either since I do see zerkers pulling off numbers that stifle me. I have seen zerkers (while in offensive stance) beating monks and bruisers by an average margin of 300-800 dps.</p><p>Now I need to get back on track here sorry. As a bruiser community what is your opinions on what direction do we need to progress to have some eye appeal to groups/raids?</p><p>As for tanking I think it would be nice if we actually had some better tools for that but I don't think that will allow us a better chance at eye appeal since most plate tanks have the rep of doing that better anyway.</p><p>A group buff would get us some attention since we do not have one at all. I  am like Miapa on this one " I won't say anything extra on this point." Many suggestions already made.</p><p>Dps for a bruiser could use a boost since we are last in tanking and have no utility, but only if we do not get utility or better tanking features in the future.</p><p>Please as a community post your opinions.</p><p>Thanks again Crabbok.</p>

[heelena]

<span class="postbody">...Please as a community post your opinions...with the release of rok the community has shrunk to a small group of high end raiding bruisers. i think worldwide there are not more than 20 bruiser which are in a raidguild/raidforce that clears vp and higher. in the worldwide bruiser channel they are asking about respawn timers of blue shinies and that says all.nice post miapa, i totaly agree on that.</span>

[Traigus]

There are actually a large number of both Bruisers and Monks on Crushbone at level 80... and we are always spamming the chat channels LFG.I've been looking for a Chardok group since Epics came out for the update there, and have yet to get one. I have been playing my bruiser a lot recently and average maybe 1 group every other night during prime time (East coast)... and get groups better later in the night (when people get less picky).  I'm uasually the last one added, am never the tank, and usually exist to FD buff the healer with my AA... if I have any responsibilities at all.I agree we are last to be picked in Gym class for groups.  With the prevalence of players with several 80 characters now, I have been asked what my other 80s are and then asked to bring one of them to the group instead (2 times this week even). I am a decently liked player, and am on pretty good terms with a lot of people on my server, but with Kunark mobs hitting like trucks, most groups really want to maximize group makup to get to deep sebilis, chardok etc. alive and kicking whith only 1 healer. People tend to want me along (as a player) but would prefer another one of my other characters, who have better defined roles.  There are 11ty million level 80 necros on my sever, but people would rather have my  necro be a second necro in the group than my bruiser at all.  I even leveled a SK to 80 and he gets invites all over the place (Crushbone is having a plate tank shortage at the moment and has  tons of active 80 monks / bruisers figtting over almsot no group spots).I don't raid, so I can't say much about that. I'd prefer our tanking be fixed. I didn't roll a bruiser to be DPS. I certainly didn't roll one to be a 7th wheel.I Tanked pretty well pre-Kunark... and tanked al lgroup content up to EoF (except Mistmore Castle) though I admit the math makes yellows a bit rough on us... and always have. Kunark trainwreck mobs really put a dent in my tanking. I feel nervous about tanking over whites. Yellows hit too often and hit too hard, even with my avoidance.  I do fine w/ 2 healers, but with 2 healers a wizard can tank ;p  Of Course, everywhere worthwhile is yellow at 80...I never use my stun mit boost. It just gets groups killed. I have never been in a group where DPS players could keep from hitting all their buttons.  Keeping aggro is hard enough without stunning myself... especially in groups where all the scouts have their epics, and even mysticals, and I have legendary.The hp->mit buff doesn't do enough to be worthwhile really. I don't notice the difference, though it does affect parses. Myabe a noticeable boost in this one woudl help.I only have 116 AA points, mostly due to difficulty getting groups.  This character is very old (Soloed Cauldron Hollow before the combat pass for ghoulbane) and am pretty much specced out for tanking.  I'm non raid geared with mostly legenday from quests and the common Kunark Intances (CoA, CoK, Maidens, VoES) and some of the new factional mastercrafted. I ahve a lot of + Deflection and defensive stat gear (vs + CA damage and crits etc.)I can solo like a maniac... and am forced to most of the time <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'm not sure what to do. A lot of our woes are the base math in EQ2's combat system. Any tank bonuses would have to have massive dps penalties or we would be unkillable solo.  But those same negatives would make us unable to keep aggro (unlike most plate tanks who have soem buff/spell that can get them aggro from BEING hit, our aggro buff gives us plus aggro from HITTING).  So  we not only get our + aggro to only 1 mob at a time (unless we use our few AOEs and hope fror a + hate proc)... while my, SK for example, uses a Lifetap ward that get extra aggro (plus damage to the mob and heals) that lets him get hit more when mobs are yellow.... while I miss more and proc less. Sure the ward doesn't hoild up to the beatings, but the SK gets damage and heal aggro from getting hit! (Crazy EPic scouts still pull off him though.. becasue they are nuts.. and lets not forget manaburning wizards...)A lot of our problems are fundimental to the combat process, and our skills as designed, compared to how combat in EQ2 has evolved over time.

[evilgamer]

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Current Bruiser Issues:</p><p>   Due to multiple suggestions from developers that all classes keep an up to date "Issues" thread on their respective forums, I figured I'd make a new thread that can hopefully get stickied and the old thread can get removed, as it is mostly out of date.  I've been exclusively playing bruiser as my main since launch, so I take the direction of the bruiser class very seriously.  As a result, here are the issues that are at the forefront of my mind and our discussions on these boards.  A sticky would be great.  </p><p>Bruiser Issues:</p><p><b>Brawler STR Line</b> - unfair that line is only for leveling.</p><p>   Any bruiser (or monk), who has done their epic weapon quest, has only 4 available lines if they wish to use their epic weapon.   The strength line is used primarily for brawlers to level up, and not have to upgrade weapons often, or at all.   Every bruiser, upon getting past 70, has weapons available to them that greatly outperform the bonus of the strength line.  As a result, the majority of high level bruiser avoid the STR line like the plague, as it is not a viable option.  </p><p>    It should be changed to scale down if weapons are equipped.  5%DPS and 2-3 double attack per point for the 3^rd ability is fine.   </p><p><b>Raid Buff</b> - Seriously underpowered</p><p>   Taunt/Detaunt effectiveness and CA damage are insignificant to a raid, when compared to what other classes can bring.  Bruisers need a raid buff that is as or more useful than the monk raid haste and spell haste.  Additionally, the taunt effectiveness would only be useful if it added hate positions to taunts and detaunts rather than just a percentage.  </p><p><b>Lack of Utility</b> - No raids need a bruiser</p><p>   24 classes, 24 raids slots, yet there are typically 3 illusionists, 2 dirges and 2 troubadours in a raid.  Bruisers do not bring anything to a raid that makes them desirable as a class.  There are many suggestions, a popular choice would be a group accuracy buff. </p><p><b>No Group Buff</b> - We offer nothing to a group (Not counting our weak raid buff)</p><p>    Compared to other fighter classes, bruisers do not give anything at all to their group.   Brawlers as a whole are weak in this area, but monks at least have a group feign death.  Bruisers do nothing that affects their group, thereby limiting the usefulness of the bruiser.  </p><p>Again, there are many suggestions for group buffs.  Knockout, Chi, Stone Deaf, and Close Mind are all great examples of current abilities that could be modified to apply to a group to increase the usefulness of the bruiser.  Additionally, many bruisers cry out for our old group DPS buff to come back to us.  We were once known for buffing our group's DPS, now we no longer have that ability and we'd love to have it back.  </p><p><b>Temporary Mitigation Buffs</b> - Spirit line should be until cancelled, and Stun Mit buff is useless</p><p>   We are a fighter class, but in terms of tanking we are the weakest.  We are often killed as soon as we try to grab agro on a raid, and groups and raids generally prefer a guardian or other plate tank.  If the bruiser Spirit line was changed to be "Until Cancelled" that would be a nice upgrade, allowing us to compete more with other plate tanks.  Additionally, our Stun Mitigation buff is almost never used simply because it is just plain not worth it.  Remove the stun component, but leave it temporary... or perhaps change it to help our survivability more by making it avoidance based.  An Uncontested% deflection bonus for 30 seconds would be far more useful than more mitigation that stuns us.  </p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">Agreed change bruising spirit to "until canceled" and the AA line to boost its mitigation slightly, maybe 1-2% per AA spent.</span> </p><p><b>Divide and Conquer </b>- High resistability plus interrupted while moving.</p><p>   Divide and Conquer seems to have a very high resist rate, even at master 1.  It is frustrating when a bruiser needs to throw up some snap aggro, and it takes 3-4 castings of this spell because it gets resisted over and over.   The resitability tends to defeat the purpose.  This spell often ceases to really be a snap aggro ability because of the long delay in trying to get it to land.  Additionally, this combat art acts like a spell, in thet we must stand still to cast it.   This is our only combat art that requires us to stand still, and that is also frustrating.  Changing this ability to be able to cast on the move would be excellent.  </p><p>These are the top issues from my observations and from what I have gathered from other threads on this forum.  </p><p> Anyone wishing to reply, please add more issues that I may have overlooked.  </p></blockquote>These are all excellent well thought out ideas.  I endorse all of them.

[evilgamer]

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">Another thing that I find interesting is why do we need the fear anymore?</span></blockquote><p>Lol, Aull always hating on fear.</p><p> I still use it all the time when soloing. </p><p>If I get an add and dont want to FD, I mezz it , then when mezz wears off I fear it.</p><p>Its a useful ability and hardly overpowering.</p><p> I dont know why you want it taken away.</p>

[JJMAC]

<p>Resistablity % and Reuse % for the raid wide buff</p><p>A full Mit / Avoidance / Aggro adjustment for all brawlers</p><p>And crusaders -- while you're at it!</p><p>Everything "Fighter" should be able to not get spanked in two shots by a epic x4 - they should also be able to hold aggro if they are a "fighter"</p><p>Just bring these in line near the guardian, just near him -- and we'll be tons more useful in a raid.</p>

[Kiara]

Stickied this for you guys to make it easier for everyone to keep up to date.

[minoshi]

<p>I like alot of the ideas here.</p><p>First I'd like to mention one thing I've been thinking hard about is perhaps increasing Brawlers HP modification.  Fact is RoK mobs do hit very hard and its a gamble weather or not we're going to avoid it.  I played FFXI for a bit and the monks had a substancial boost in HP.  They could tank, but barely - they were somewhat similar here but didnt have the avoidance.  I think if we could add an HP boost that *might* put us on par with tanking, but still leave room for other tanks to be sought after for certain encounters.</p><p> Also, it seems somewhat unfair monks everburning flame line is an until cancelled HASTE buff.  Where as ours is a low mit buff that lasts 3mins?.  It seems out of line.</p><p> A group buff would be nice, perhaps an accuracy buff(or dps and use the accuracy for raidwide buff and completely remove the taunt effectiveness).  Reguardless if we get a nice raid buff, we'll still be put in that orphan group with an assortment of conjurers and sk's. </p><p> Does our engulf proc still seem to not be working correctly? Something doesnt seem right with that still.</p><p> Just some thoughts~</p>

[luder118]

<p>I have been playing the bruiser class since 3 weeks before RoK, betrayed from monk and was level caped for a while at 70/100.  I now raid with my guild on my bruiser, and alot of what is being said is very true.  I would love to see the taunt/detaunt part of the raid buff be changed to recast reduction, I think that would match the monks casting speed one in use very nicely.  As far as the +CA damage that should have stayed DPS mod and would also like that changed back, would be much more usefull since caping DPS is very hard even in the best of groups.  Those changes alone I think would atleast put on back on par with monks for the most part and would not be overpowered at all.  Also these adjustments would be very fitting for our class roleplaying wise being that most of our damage is from our CAs the recast would help alot no matter how little, and the DPS... well we all know we are suposed to just hit hard and meen. /evilgrin</p><p>edit to say nice work ont he sticky Crabbok! you da man</p><p>p.s. LOL every time I see your sig.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Thank you Kiara for getting this stickied for the community.</p><p>I do agree that bruisers mit buff should be until canceled. Doing this would be a great move as well for bruisers since the buff is a nice boost but isn't over powering. </p><p>Engulf proc of the offensive stance just isn't working as it should or "not as I think it should". This is just my opinion but engulf doesn't proc at near the rate at 2.0 ppm as a mastercrafted weapon gleaming strike does that is rated at 1.8 ppm. You bruisers test that out on your own and prove me wrong (I have been known to be wrong many times). In most fights when I do use a mastercrafted weapon just to test the proc rate of engulf I see gleaming strike procing three or four times but no engulf proc. That is what is disturbing. I know I do not have the evidence to post here to show my findings but my bruiser did 13 straight fights and not a single engulf proc!</p><p>The last time that I played my bruiser about five days ago I did see engulf proc a few times but again it wasn't consistant. I think where some of the problem lies is that engulf seems to not proc off the combat arts either or was is it only intended to proc off auto attack? I am not saying that engulf should proc on every hit but as it currently stands there is absolutely no benefit from this ability. All I would like to see is if the ability is there it would be nice to actually see a dps increase while using the stance.</p><p>For what it is worth I looked at the bruiser description in the Everquest II role-playing game guide and here is a small statement from what I read. "The bruiser relies on quick and effective offense over defense, relying on high health total and damage reduction to take the edge of the opponents' attacks". </p><p>Keep the ideas posting!</p><p>Thanks</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p>I do think Engulf procs a bit low sometimes.   I wouldn't rank it as a major concern at the moment, because sometimes I see it proc at an appropriate level, and sometimes I see it proc just slightly below normal.  </p><p>  With the VP Set bonus, engulf shows up as a 2.9 per minute proc, and typicaly it will proc more than the 2.4 from our Epic.  Sometimes it's about the same but often it's more, so I'd say that it's pretty close to the mark, slightly lower than it should be though. </p>

[Pnaxx]

<p>Ok, here is an issue I didnt see mentioned.</p><p>Tanking in Balanced Stance or Defensive Stance is bad on agro control. The Monks can switch up just fine whereas we lose vital agro control as our hits stop landing as much. Whats up with that? I am fine with not doing much damage in defensive, but to suck as a tank while in it makes no sense to me.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p>Tanking in defensive and loosing hits is more of a universal problem, rather than just a bruiser problem.  Hit rates are at an all time low in this expansion.  </p><p>  I don't see what makes you think monks can "Switch it up just fine".   It applies to everyone.   If you are tanking in Defensive you need to have someone buffing your crush skill like a dirge or warden, or both.  I would like for all fighter stances to loose the Negatives, and only gain positives.  </p>

[TruhlsRu]

<span class="postbody">     Having played a bruiser since launch I feel that we have all felt the nerf bat more then some. People have groaned and moaned about our our class being too powerful and we get nerfed. SOE prefers to look at us as the "red headed step child no one wants" then too look at us as a viable class.      For those beating the " We need to be better tanks drum" I say this to you we are decent or slightly above decent instance and group tanks. Our avoidance helps us out emmencely and with the right gear and AA spec we can tank any instance out there. I have tanked all the instances except RE2 because I havent tried and can tank them really well. Even with our AA specs and gear we lack the great taunts the other classes have. We really have 2 taunts and if the right AA we can have 5 being the ability to change our hate spot by one, Divide and conquor and drag. Now I know rescue is useful but the reuse timer on it is too long so it doesnt make for a viable solution. Almost all of our aggro comes from our DPS output supplemented with taunts. Since classes like brigands, swashies, assassins, wizards and warlocks can do sooo much DPS its hard for me sometimes to hold aggro from them.. especially wizards and warlocks. If we are going to be tanks then offer us something more to help with aggro or allow us to be in defensive stance and still be able to do high DPS so we can hold aggro a bit easier. I know our epic helps us as does the mythical but its a proc base, not a constant effect. I can think of one item off hand but cant remember the name of it that allowed us to gain hate with every hit we did, it wasnt percent based and I think that should be incorperated into our epic/Mythical instead of a proc chance. Our avoidance should also be considered since we will never achieve chain or plate mitigation EVER and we arent supposed too.     For those beating the " We need better DPS drum" I say yes we should be able to do more dps but over the long haul. We have probably some of the best burst DPS in the game but with a cost....long reuse timers on just about all of our combat arts. If I remember right is about 35-45secs per combat art on reuse even with our batton flurry which most times  tends to get debuffed off a mob in a lot of cases. Our AoEs which can be powerful are on such long refresh timers that they can be a bit of a hindrance to us if not careful. It is a shame to see plate tanks out dpsing us by such a wide margin, even in a 6 man group. I have a full set of tank gear and a nice set of DPS gear and the difference is noticable but not by much imo. In offensive stance with DS gear I can self buff haste to 32, DPS is 25, double attack is 8% Crits at 44% and Damage modifer is 460 IE + whatever to combat art damage. But to see a plate tank running around in defensive stance and out dpsing me is a shame really. We are leather wearers and bruisers/monks should be the top of the tank DPS tree period. We should swing faster and hit harder then any other tank class for the simple fact we wear leather and have low mitagation. The STR line is useless to us, has been since the claymore line came out really. I heard a rumor once the Devs tried to implement weapons onto the strength line in test but the test community complained so loudly they nerfed it the same day and took  it out. It would be a start to us by fixing that line to allow us to use our epics/mythicals and such with that line, otherwise replace the line entirely.     For those beating the " Bruisers need to be a better utility class drum " I say AMEN. We have nothing to offer a raid and very little to offer a group outside of our Burst DPS and Altruism if you have gone down that line. D and C  is use less to bruisers in offensive stance and DPS gear because we just cant take the beating when half a group of mobs suddenly switch to us and beat us down.. lets forget about using it on raid mobs, 3 hits..maybe 5 tops and we go Splat. Drag is a useful utility and I use it often, even on rids.. good for peeling mobs away from the other squishies of the raid force. Monks Peel is better but since the Peel nerf its more on par with D and C. As it has been stated in other posts our only raid wide buff is useless. It offers nothing to anyone but a paltry 98 combat damage modifier at Adept III. We need more utility by far. Anything to make us more viable to a raid force would be nice. Whether it be a crit chance/ DPS modifier... which by the way is what rumble was before they nerfed and changed it. though it was self only. A few debuffs added to our arts would be nice as well but not heat damage procs, most high in raid mobs have high tolerance to it. The brawler tree in a whole should be tweaked some, Str line being reworked all together. The bruiser tree is ok, but if they give us some nice utilities then by all means fix it... honestly anyone here actually use the interceed part of the tree?    In the end I would have to say those of us who have played bruisers for years and hung on despite SoE's lack of support for us are to be commended. Those who betrayed to Monks.. well people are entitled to change. Lets se if SoE will listen to us and I say be damned what the other classess have to say about us, otherwise we will be the best soloers in the game, be decent to above average group tanks and the fat kid with pimples sitting on teh bench crying when we dont get picked for raids other then to be a "filler" spot until some class deamed more important comes along and we get bumped.I posted this in another thread and thught it would fit here, If I am wrong please remove it.-chuckles - I apologize in advance for typos and grammatical errors</span>

[Pnaxx]

<cite>TruhlsRuhk wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="postbody">     Having played a bruiser since launch I feel that we have all felt the nerf bat more then some. People have groaned and moaned about our our class being too powerful and we get nerfed. SOE prefers to look at us as the "red headed step child no one wants" then too look at us as a viable class.      For those beating the " We need to be better tanks drum" I say this to you we are decent or slightly above decent instance and group tanks. Our avoidance helps us out emmencely and with the right gear and AA spec we can tank any instance out there. I have tanked all the instances except RE2 because I havent tried and can tank them really well. Even with our AA specs and gear we lack the great taunts the other classes have. We really have 2 taunts and if the right AA we can have 5 being the ability to change our hate spot by one, Divide and conquor and drag. Now I know rescue is useful but the reuse timer on it is too long so it doesnt make for a viable solution. Almost all of our aggro comes from our DPS output supplemented with taunts. Since classes like brigands, swashies, assassins, wizards and warlocks can do sooo much DPS its hard for me sometimes to hold aggro from them.. especially wizards and warlocks. If we are going to be tanks then offer us something more to help with aggro or allow us to be in defensive stance and still be able to do high DPS so we can hold aggro a bit easier. I know our epic helps us as does the mythical but its a proc base, not a constant effect. I can think of one item off hand but cant remember the name of it that allowed us to gain hate with every hit we did, it wasnt percent based and I think that should be incorperated into our epic/Mythical instead of a proc chance. Our avoidance should also be considered since we will never achieve chain or plate mitigation EVER and we arent supposed too.     For those beating the " We need better DPS drum" I say yes we should be able to do more dps but over the long haul. We have probably some of the best burst DPS in the game but with a cost....long reuse timers on just about all of our combat arts. If I remember right is about 35-45secs per combat art on reuse even with our batton flurry which most times  tends to get debuffed off a mob in a lot of cases. Our AoEs which can be powerful are on such long refresh timers that they can be a bit of a hindrance to us if not careful. It is a shame to see plate tanks out dpsing us by such a wide margin, even in a 6 man group. I have a full set of tank gear and a nice set of DPS gear and the difference is noticable but not by much imo. In offensive stance with DS gear I can self buff haste to 32, DPS is 25, double attack is 8% Crits at 44% and Damage modifer is 460 IE + whatever to combat art damage. But to see a plate tank running around in defensive stance and out dpsing me is a shame really. We are leather wearers and bruisers/monks should be the top of the tank DPS tree period. We should swing faster and hit harder then any other tank class for the simple fact we wear leather and have low mitagation. The STR line is useless to us, has been since the claymore line came out really. I heard a rumor once the Devs tried to implement weapons onto the strength line in test but the test community complained so loudly they nerfed it the same day and took  it out. It would be a start to us by fixing that line to allow us to use our epics/mythicals and such with that line, otherwise replace the line entirely.     For those beating the " Bruisers need to be a better utility class drum " I say AMEN. We have nothing to offer a raid and very little to offer a group outside of our Burst DPS and Altruism if you have gone down that line. D and C  is use less to bruisers in offensive stance and DPS gear because we just cant take the beating when half a group of mobs suddenly switch to us and beat us down.. lets forget about using it on raid mobs, 3 hits..maybe 5 tops and we go Splat. Drag is a useful utility and I use it often, even on rids.. good for peeling mobs away from the other squishies of the raid force. Monks Peel is better but since the Peel nerf its more on par with D and C. As it has been stated in other posts our only raid wide buff is useless. It offers nothing to anyone but a paltry 98 combat damage modifier at Adept III. We need more utility by far. Anything to make us more viable to a raid force would be nice. Whether it be a crit chance/ DPS modifier... which by the way is what rumble was before they nerfed and changed it. though it was self only. A few debuffs added to our arts would be nice as well but not heat damage procs, most high in raid mobs have high tolerance to it. The brawler tree in a whole should be tweaked some, Str line being reworked all together. The bruiser tree is ok, but if they give us some nice utilities then by all means fix it... honestly anyone here actually use the interceed part of the tree?    In the end I would have to say those of us who have played bruisers for years and hung on despite SoE's lack of support for us are to be commended. Those who betrayed to Monks.. well people are entitled to change. Lets se if SoE will listen to us and I say be damned what the other classess have to say about us, otherwise we will be the best soloers in the game, be decent to above average group tanks and the fat kid with pimples sitting on teh bench crying when we dont get picked for raids other then to be a "filler" spot until some class deamed more important comes along and we get bumped.<b><u>I posted this in another thread </u></b>and thught it would fit here, If I am wrong please remove it.-chuckles - I apologize in advance for typos and grammatical errors</span></blockquote>LOL...I thought I had seen this before.

[Pnaxx]

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Tanking in defensive and loosing hits is more of a universal problem, rather than just a bruiser problem.  Hit rates are at an all time low in this expansion.  </p><p>  I don't see what makes you think monks can "Switch it up just fine".   It applies to everyone.   If you are tanking in Defensive you need to have someone buffing your crush skill like a dirge or warden, or both.  I would like for all fighter stances to loose the Negatives, and only gain positives.  </p></blockquote><p>When I talk to my Monks forends, they say they get an actual hate proc in def mode. They say they lose no agro at all as compared with the other stances.</p><p>/Shrug</p>

[evilgamer]

<p>The biggest issue with our class in our lack of raid usefulness.</p><p>Because of the way avoidence works against epic tagged mobs, we are not allowed to do our primary role, which is to tank.</p><p>Because of this we need something something to offer to raids that another class can not give.</p><p>Giving us scout like dps is not likely to happen.  </p><p> Giving us a huge de-buff would over power us in solo and group play, I mean if we could dispatch mobs we would destroy things solo.</p><p>What we need is a very powerful and useful raid buff, something that in groups and solo play that is not overpowering, but spread over 24 other toons makes a significant difference to the raid.</p><p>I like the idea of changing our raid buff to a + dps and + reuse timer buff.  I think it would compliment the monk buff and give raids a reason to include a bruiser.</p><p>As far as heroic and solo content we are fine, the only thing is that I would like to see a slight increase to our tanking ability.  I have no raid gear, just instance legednary and mastercrafted stuff and I have tanked all the RoK instances in the game except RE 2.  Which is fine, but I would like to be able to tank RE 2.</p><p>I think our mitigation buff "bruising spirit" needs to be "until canceled" and the achievements we get for it would increase its effectiveness, say 5% more mitigation per point spent.</p><p>That would defineatly help our tanking a bit.</p><p>Oh yeah, nerf guardians, ha ha.</p><p>Also "heavy scarring" mitigation buff that stuns us is next to useless, its the only spell i never bothered to upgrade to at least AD3.  Removing the stun part of it would be immensly useful to this buff, because as of right now I never ever cast it.  You cant hold aggro when stunned, you have use CA to hold aggro, not being able to cast CA makes this buff next to useless.</p>

[vikingostby]

<p>I like all the ideas posted.</p><p>The only thing I would like to propose is that we do get a Short Debuff of some sort, and or a favorable group buff.</p><p>I would like to see the option to throw more than one bruiser in a raid. </p><p>With a powerful short term debuff - Delevel the Mob for X seconds, Incapacitate the mobs Double/triple/quad attacks for x seconds, mob cannot auto attack for x seconds. Something of that nature, where more than one bruiser would be welcome, if not wanted.</p><p>or</p><p>Powerful self temp buffs, and or single target buffs that are Tank oriented. Temp buff that increases self mit by xxxx everytime hit for x amount of seconds.</p><p>A bodyguard type spell that increase bumps tank's mit and avoid by x% for x seconds. Maybe with a damage absorb.</p><p> I dunno, stuff like that would make multiple bruisers on a raid not seem silly.</p><p>I love the KO or Chi for the Group. That would also make me happy below the waistline.</p><p>Prolly a bit late to throw my 2c in, but those were my thoughts.</p><p>Oh yeah, what I really want, is a ability where I jump on the Mob's back and choke him. Until I am hit, the mob's dmg decreases by 5% per second or tick or whatever. Hate increases exponentially until I am on top. I just wanna choke a mob out.</p>

[Roldor]

<p>I agree with all the issues mentioned but would like to see a number of issues I have noticed added to the list as well.</p><p><b>Issue 1</b></p><p>Bruisers have no raid enhancing ability. I support the idea of a strong debuff and a strong raid buff to make a Bruiser desirable to a raid force.</p><p><b>Issue 2</b></p><p>Bruisers have very limited raid tanking ability i.e. the ability to quickly pickup and hold a mob without going splat in the first 2 seconds, (Monks peel and Tsunami spring to mind). I support the proposal for enhancement to Divide and Conquer but bruisers also require an anti-splat ability like Tsunami, Dragoons Reflexes or Tower of Stone (see issue 4 for some ideas).</p><p><b>Issue 3</b></p><p>Bruisers have limited (feign Death) raid utility. It would be good to see Bruisers intercede line fixed to allow better utility perhaps by way of a minor damage absorption ability that can be put on the MT, possibly part of your avoidance buff.</p><p><b>Issue 4</b></p><p>Sonic Punch/Fists is one of the most useless CAs we have. I'm really not sure how we are meant to effectively use this CA?</p><p>For Exmaple...</p><p>DPS application - Sonic Punch must be made from range so to use it you must jousting out to cast it, port in then port back and finally jousting back in to melee range. With all the jousting and porting though you are missing out on a bunch of auto attacks and thus loosing DPS. DPS application = not feasible.</p><p>Range pulling - we are generally forced to body pull everything now days so not a big call but assuming the opportunity presents itself we could use Sonic Punch to pull with. However I fail to see the point of a CA that hits the mob for some damage allows us to fire a quick CA off and then ports us out again and all the while we are toe to toe with the mob taking damage for our efforts. And, not only do we take damage for our efforts but most likely our CA order will be disrupted and the mob will probably be in the wrong position when it reaches the group. I'd much rather do the same DPS with two ranged auto attacks and have no chance of taking damage from the mob; I can then turn the mob correctly and begin CA order. Range pulling = undesirable.</p><p>Perhaps I've missed something (please inform me if I have) but I fail to see ANY useful application for this CA other than as fluff.</p><p>This CA needs to be re-evaluated. If we look at the equivalent CA for our Monk counterparts they have Tsunami an awesome awesome tanking ability. I think Sonic Punch/Fists should either be scrapped entirely for something with more of a tank application like Tsunami or the CA needs serious tuning.</p><p><i>Option 1 - Scrap Sonic Punch for a tanking ability</i></p><p>Body of Stone</p><p>Casting: 0.5 secondsRecast time: 3 minutesCost: 200 powerDuration: 20 seconds</p><p>For the duration each time the bruiser deflects, parries or ripostes there is a chance to proc stone skin on the bruiser.</p><p>Effects- Caster has a 50% chance to proc Stone Skin on a successful deflect, parry or riposte.</p><p>I really think this option is keeping within the theme of the brawler i.e. their weapon is their body.</p><p><i>Option 2 - Tune Sonic Punch</i></p><p>- Remove the range requirement so as the CA can be added to the ordinary CA rotation.- Increase the range on this ability to 50m to allow us a long range CA like our Monk counterparts have with 'Peel'.- Either remove the whole teleporting mumbojumbo or make it a one way teleport i.e. just teleport to the target and not back again.</p><p><b>Issue 5</b></p><p>Yes, please dear god fix the ridiculous stun mit buff already!!!</p><p>- Roldy</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p>For issue 1, we do already have the best crush pierce slash debuff in the game.  With the recent change to masters rage, that gives us 2 awesome debuffs.  If you all want another one it could be hard to figure out what exactly it would be.  Some have suggested a mitigation de-buff, but there is already a mit debuff in the STR line available to us.  I'd like some creative ideas.  I doubt were getting any new CA's, but maybe some ideas for a debuuf gained through AA in the next expansion?  </p><p>             How about a debuff that prevents the mob from riposting?  Sounds unique, and would certainly come in handy.  </p><p>Your Issue 2,</p><p>   Well we DO have something like that on our mythical, so I doubt we'll see the same type effect on a new ability.  I did propose changing our stun-mit buff to a partial version though, like perhaps 50% riposte and a root instead of stun.  Make it last a bit longer than Tsunami, but it's half as effective.... so it's a tradeoff. </p><p>Your Issue 3, </p><p>   Intercede line is awful... and I will absolutely add this to this list.  Many folks have ranted about this lines lack of any purpose.  </p><p>Your Issue 4, </p><p>   I dunno about changing sonic fists completely, but I'll agree with you on having the min range removed.  It'd be nice having the extra CA to use at close range. </p><p> Your Issue 5,</p><p>   Yes, the Stun mit debuff is suggested to have a change already, as our spirit line suggested to be changed to "Until Cancelled".  </p>

[Roldor]

<i>>For issue 1, we do already have the best crush pierce slash debuff in the >game. With the recent change to masters rage, that gives us 2 awesome >debuffs.</i>I think you might have missed my point a little here. We may have a nice attack debuff but it is no gold shining star on a raid i.e. the raid leader does not call for it like dispatch or COB etc. What I've got my mind on is something of the dispatch ilk that raid leaders actually call for and want posted in big bold letters in raid chat. Obviously I wouldn't expect anything as powerful as dispatch but something really worthwhile that allows the raid as a whole to crank out more dps.The master rage ability only works on certain mobs and is available to all fighters so that is nothing unique to the Bruiser class that makes us anymore desirable on a raid.If for class balancing reasons we can only reasonably have one debuff then fix up our attack debuff so as it is something worthy of spamming in big bold letters in a raid.<i>>Well we DO have something like that on our mythical, </i>No no no no no!!! You do not prop up a weak class via way of a mythical weapon or other leet item, fix the class; NO STICKY TAPE FIXES THANK YOU VERY MUCH! (sorry comments like that really make my blood boil)<i>>I did propose changing our stun-mit buff to a partial version though, like >perhaps 50% riposte and a root instead of stun.</i>I don't care whether they change the stun-mit or add a new CA but we need something of the anti-splat ilk and something to hold a mob with i.e. tune up Divide and Conquer. I'd be very greatful if you could highlight these two serious deficiencies the Bruiser class has in its raid ability.<i>>Intercede line is awful... and I will absolutely add this to this list.</i>I wouldn't say it's awful (compare to garbage like Sonich PUnch or Stun-Mit) but it certainly isn't terribly worthwhile and could do with some highlighting; thank you Crabbok.<i>>I dunno about changing sonic fists completely, but I'll agree with you on >having the min range removed.</i>As it is currently I challenge you to describe a 'worthwhile' use for this CA. If you can't come up with anything reasonable then I urge you to add it to your list of issues.- Roldy

[Quicksilver74]

<p>A current worthwile use for sonic fists?  There aren't many with it's range requirements but ok I'll bite.  You hit Sonic fists, Drag, and pull a mob, either off a raid members, or just get the mob away from people.  Additionally it's usefull for when you don't have long to joust an AoE, and wanna get in, get your debuff off, and then backout.  I'd love to have the added function of seeing the minimum range removed though, so that it could be an extra CA in our lineup for 99.99% or all other situations.  </p><p>  As for the debuff, at the moment I can't think of any debuff that we could be given, that would increase the raid's DPS, unless it was like dispatch or the new Master's Rage.  Do you have any suggestions or do you just want "Something awesome".  I'd like to hear ideas for a cool new debuff, but to be honest, I'm reluctant to add something like that to the list because wanting a new CA doesn't fall in line with "Current Bruiser Issues", it's more like a Wishlist for new AAs.  I could actually get a list together and start a new thread as a wishlist for these type of requests.  </p><p>  I can also understand the request for anti-splat mechanics.  I wasn't saying that our mythical weapons is the only solution, but my point is that there IS currently a bruiser only 100% dodge item out there, and though it's not easy to reach, that tends to mean that they will be much less likely to give us another buff of equal strength.  </p><p>   Hopefully we can get an activatable stoneskin or something similar... I think stoneskin is the way to go as far as anti-splat.  </p>

[Roldor]

<p>>You hit Sonic fists, Drag, and pull a mob, either off a raid members, >or just get the mob away from people.mmm possibly... That's more highlighting the usefulness of Drag though.</p><p>>Additionally it's usefull for when you don't have long to joust an >AoE, and wanna get in, get your debuff off, and then backout.Perhaps I can give you a point scored there... I could see this tactic useful on say Silverwing where you might joust at say 15 to be out with plenty of time to spare. You could then Sonic Punch in to add a final bit of smack down then be ported back safely to your joust position before the AOE goes off. Thing is though typically you want to joust a little further than the max range for Sonic Punch. Like I said earlier remove the minimum range and increase the maximum range so we have a nice long range ability like our Monk counterparts (Peel).</p><p>>Do you have any suggestions or do you just want "Something awesome". >I'd like to hear ideas for a cool new debuffNo I hate the "Something awesome" type posts as much as you seem to. I think we should be looking at asking for some candy on our Gut Punch ability. It is positional and has one of the longer recasts. Here are some quick ideas (obviously numbers are just more or less arbitrary):</p><p>- Change duration to 10 seconds- Remove daze effect and replace with an effect from the list below</p><p>1. Decreases mitigation of target vs crushing, piercing and slashing by 18002. Decreases defence, parry and deflection of target by 603. When target is hit by a successful melee attack (group only) there is a 50% chance to proc Bruising Blow on target (Inflicts 110-220 crushing damage on target)4. All melee attacks made against the target have +10% melee crit chance (group only)5. Target is de-leveled three levels</p><p>>wanting a new CA doesn't fall in line with "Current Bruiser Issues", >it's more like a Wishlist for new AAsHow about wanting to be able to effectively fulfil our role of tank, at least as successfully as our Monk counterparts? Would you say that falls in-line with "Current Bruiser Issues"? If so then I ask okay how do we fix the tanking issue? We fix that by tuning or adding to what we have thus suggestions for modifying or replacing a CA do not seem out of the question to me.</p><p>>Hopefully we can get an activatable stoneskin or something similar... >I think stoneskin is the way to go as far as anti-splat.Could we get this added to the list of issues... stone skin anti-splat ability. Either added as part of the intercede line tuning, tuning of the retribution of stone AA line or part of the request for mit-stun tuning?</p><p>Thanks very much for the healthy banter on this Crabbok. I'm pretty passionate about my Bruiser and so sick to death of feeling like the red headed step child next to our Monk counterparts.</p><p>- Roldy</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p>I like the 10% crit chance when Gut Punch lands on the mob, thats pretty creative.  I'm not going to add that yet, would like to get some more folks input on it first.  </p><p>The Stoneskin thing I will add, and yes the intercede line sounds to me like the best place for it.  </p><p>  Also heres another issue thats been bugging me.  Our CA's in general have a very wide range, with a very low LOW end.  IE 300-1300 damage or so.  As a result we CAN have high burst DPS, but this also results in our dps being very low at times due to unpredictable nature of just how much damage a CA might deal. </p><p>   Currently, fighter combat Arts do not deal max damage+1 or higher like scout CAs or spell crits do, instead, fighter CA's do normal damage and add 30% of what it woudl have been if not a crit.  This allows for CA's to crit for much less than max damage, and with our wide range we can get some very low crits.  </p><p>   For example, Front kick can do a normal hit for 1100, then crit for 400, then a normal hit for 1200.... and to me thats broken.  </p><p>  The low end damage on our CA's also severely limits how much +CA damage mod we can take advantage of.  I have about 350 CA mod, and get very little benefit to adding more, as it really only shows on the highest damaging CAs like Gut Punch.  I'd like to see our minimum damage raised, or the mechanic changed for fighter CAs. </p>

[evilgamer]

<p>Please lets not make this a dps circle jerk.</p><p>We already do the best dps of the fighter classes and I parse pretty well for a tank class.</p><p>I still get people questioning wether I can actually tank certain zones because I am a "brewser".</p><p>I personally want to see our surviablity upped before our dps is, after all, we are a tank class.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

Well my issue is more with Fighter crits really, so not truly a bruiser issue.  Fixing that would raise all fighter dps. 

[evilgamer]

<p>The stifling component of devastation fist needs to be removed.</p><p>As it stands now, you lose dps when you devastation fist epic flagged mobs due to the stifle component, and that is just wrong.</p><p>Devestation fist just does not hit hard enough on epics to justify being stifled for 10 seconds.</p><p>Sure you can hit crane flock and then dev fist or you can try  to time dev fist for when the mob is about 1%, but that is extremely hard do and crane flock is not always up.</p><p>Another issue is that you pull serious aggro when you devestation fist heroic mobs, and because of the stifling component you can not drop aggro with control hate or by feigning death.</p><p>So if any developer is reading this, if you really want to help brawlers, please get rid of the stifling component of devastation fist.</p>

[evilgamer]

<p>Also what about changing our raid buff from  + Combat art damage  and increasing the effectiveness of taunts/detaunts to: </p><p>+ 14.4% off of reuse timers and + 24% Double attack</p><p>This would compliment the monk raid wide buff of </p><p>14.4% cast speed and + 24% attack haste</p><p>The current taunt/detaunt modifier and +CA damage is almost worthless.</p><p>Taunts/detaunts have very little effect on aggro, aggro is held with +hate gain and hate transfer, and its very easy for melee classes to cap their +combat art damage.</p><p>Very few classes buff double attack and reuse by a signficant amount and none on a raid wide. </p><p>My orginal idea was to change the raid wide to + reuse/dps, but so many classes buff dps, I think + double attack would be better and more unique, giving bruisers a better chance at a raid slot.</p><p>+ reuse would really help out our dps to as so many of our Combat arts have really long recast.</p>

[Aull]

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Also what about changing our raid buff from  + Combat art damage  and increasing the effectiveness of taunts/detaunts to: </p><p>+ 14.4% off of reuse timers and + 24% Double attack</p><p>This would compliment the monk raid wide buff of </p><p>14.4% cast speed and + 24% attack haste</p><p>The current taunt/detaunt modifier and +CA damage is almost worthless.</p><p>Taunts/detaunts have very little effect on aggro, aggro is held with +hate gain and hate transfer, and its very easy for melee classes to cap their +combat art damage.</p><p>Very few classes buff double attack and reuse by a signficant amount and none on a raid wide. </p><p>My orginal idea was to change the raid wide to + reuse/dps, but so many classes buff dps, I think + double attack would be better and more unique, giving bruisers a better chance at a raid slot.</p><p>+ reuse would really help out our dps to as so many of our Combat arts have really long recast.</p></blockquote><p>Well this idea of the +reuse and dps or double attack would be a very nice upgrade for the bruiser and would most definately give bruisers some grouping and eye appeal. I wouldn't care if it was dps or double attack I just want something that gives other classes a reason to want to have a bruiser as part of a group or raid. </p><p>I just so hope that something like this is actually being looked into for this class.</p>

[Mogzilla]

<p>One of the problems I see with the bruiser class is that there is no "oh crap" defensive ability like other fighters get.</p><p>Monks get tsuami, guardians get tower of stone, crusaders get divine aura, zerkers get adrenaline.</p><p>Bruisers without their mythical get nothing and go splat.</p><p>We really need a "oh crap" defensive ability like the other fighters have for bruisers who cant get their mythicals due to lack of time to raid or lack of raiding  guilds that want a bruiser.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

Very true.  I think our self heal or stone deaf were meant to be our Oh Crap abilities, but they are simply not enough.  We do need basicly a temporary invinicbility.  Lets wait and see what the expansion holds!

[familyguyfan95]

<p>I also like that gut punch ability and while i dont think it merits a raid call so to speak, it does however give us  a group call and could be quite usefull.  </p><p>The oh crap ability(lol) yes can be a factor, cause i seem to use stone deaf as more of a anti aoe ability to keep me still punching while others have left.  I do agree that they are not enough to keep us up with direct hits.  </p><p>Maybe the retribution of stone can be our oh crap ability with a few tweaks to make it a short buff for ourselves.</p>

[Omgidomms]

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Also what about changing our raid buff from  + Combat art damage  and increasing the effectiveness of taunts/detaunts to: </p><p>+ 14.4% off of reuse timers and + 24% Double attack</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0000;">I really like this idea <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></b></p><p>This would compliment the monk raid wide buff of </p><p>14.4% cast speed and + 24% attack haste</p><p>The current taunt/detaunt modifier and +CA damage is almost worthless.</p><p>Taunts/detaunts have very little effect on aggro, aggro is held with +hate gain and hate transfer, and its very easy for melee classes to cap their +combat art damage.</p><p>Very few classes buff double attack and reuse by a signficant amount and none on a raid wide. </p><p>My orginal idea was to change the raid wide to + reuse/dps, but so many classes buff dps, I think + double attack would be better and more unique, giving bruisers a better chance at a raid slot.</p><p>+ reuse would really help out our dps to as so many of our Combat arts have really long recast.</p></blockquote>

[Xanrn]

Yeah because +14.4 Reuse and +24% Double Attack is really equal to +14.4 Casting Speed and +24 Haste...Not...Illussonary Arm is 25% Double Attack and Illussionists can only cast it on one person. Items in VP have 40 Haste versus 7 Double Attack.14.4 Reuse Speed beats the hell out of 14.4 Casting Speed.14.4 Reuse and +24% double attack is so overpowered even Assassins with their mythical could say so.

[Aull]

<cite>Xanrn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah because +14.4 Reuse and +24% Double Attack is really equal to +14.4 Casting Speed and +24 Haste...Not...Illussonary Arm is 25% Double Attack and Illussionists can only cast it on one person. Items in VP have 40 Haste versus 7 Double Attack.14.4 Reuse Speed beats the hell out of 14.4 Casting Speed.14.4 Reuse and +24% double attack is so overpowered even Assassins with their mythical could say so.</blockquote>Yep lets please not infringe upon a monks ability to be better at almost everything and just let the bruiser class continue to suck.

[Dorieon]

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xanrn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah because +14.4 Reuse and +24% Double Attack is really equal to +14.4 Casting Speed and +24 Haste...Not...Illussonary Arm is 25% Double Attack and Illussionists can only cast it on one person. Items in VP have 40 Haste versus 7 Double Attack.14.4 Reuse Speed beats the hell out of 14.4 Casting Speed.14.4 Reuse and +24% double attack is so overpowered even Assassins with their mythical could say so.</blockquote>Yep lets please not infringe upon a monks ability to be better at almost everything and just let the bruiser class continue to suck.</blockquote><p>Aull, you are normally a pretty level headed person. If you don't see that having a 'raidwide 24% double attack' is a bit overpowered, I don't know what to say. I for one want you guys to get a better raidwide but, 24% DA is a bit much. I could live with maybe 5 but 24 is just nuts (I mean there are alot of bruisers complaining that don't even have 24 DA total as is).  The reuse speed is an awesome complement to the monk casting speed but lets find something reasonable for the secondary effect. </p>

[Aull]

<p>I was basically joking around cause having the 24% double attack would be somewhat to much. Here is my deal. I personally think that individuality is being lost amongst the brawlers and to an extent most the classes. If a certain class has an ability or spell that totally rocks then so be it. I do however think that a bruiser is blown completely out of the water compaired to a monk. Tanking is relatively equal with a slight advantage to the monk in tsunami, raid dps is relatively equal again all buffs/equip being similar, however when it comes to the raid wide buff and having some group appeal the monk outshines the bruiser hands down. So what really is it that makes a bruiser actually wanted then?</p><p>A few of my monk friends have been blindly offered guild web site addresses so that they can submit an online application because some of these guilds are actively seeking monks for raids or as back up. They were of course on a probation for a few weeks to see how they played out but still was offered a position based on class. I don't wish for bruisers to out tank, out dps, or even offer superior group abilities, but I do want bruisers to have something that separates them from a monk either it be tanking or dps but not both. After all from what little lore I have read about bruisers is that they were once ashen order monks who have forsaken tranquility and have taken an already impressive fighting style and honed it into a more powerful and deadly art.</p><p>Sorry starting to ramble again.</p>

[Mogzilla]

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>  <p><b>Divide and Conquer </b>- High resistability plus interrupted while moving.</p><p>  <span style="color: #ff0000;"> <b><u> Additionally, this combat art acts like a spell, in thet we must stand still to cast it.   This is our only combat art that requires us to stand still, and that is also frustrating.  Changing this ability to be able to cast on the move would be excellent.  </u></b></span></p></blockquote>Yes the fact that D & C can be interrupted like a spell is highly annoying to say the least.  How is this not a bug?  No other combat art I have can be intereupted when moving.

[Mogzilla]

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I was basically joking around cause having the 24% double attack would be somewhat to much. Here is my deal. I personally think that individuality is being lost amongst the brawlers and to an extent most the classes. If a certain class has an ability or spell that totally rocks then so be it. I do however think that a bruiser is blown completely out of the water compaired to a monk. Tanking is relatively equal with a slight advantage to the monk in tsunami, raid dps is relatively equal again all buffs/equip being similar, however when it comes to the raid wide buff and having some group appeal the monk outshines the bruiser hands down. So what really is it that makes a bruiser actually wanted then?</p><p>A few of my monk friends have been blindly offered guild web site addresses so that they can submit an online application because some of these guilds are actively seeking monks for raids or as back up. They were of course on a probation for a few weeks to see how they played out but still was offered a position based on class. I don't wish for bruisers to out tank, out dps, or even offer superior group abilities, but I do want bruisers to have something that separates them from a monk either it be tanking or dps but not both. After all from what little lore I have read about bruisers is that they were once ashen order monks who have forsaken tranquility and have taken an already impressive fighting style and honed it into a more powerful and deadly art.</p><p>Sorry starting to ramble again.</p></blockquote><p>My guild has even asked me to betray monk, as I am good player and they dont want to replace me on raids.  I told them I would if they reimburse me for my masters and help me get my fabled epic lol.</p>

[Aull]

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I was basically joking around cause having the 24% double attack would be somewhat to much. Here is my deal. I personally think that individuality is being lost amongst the brawlers and to an extent most the classes. If a certain class has an ability or spell that totally rocks then so be it. I do however think that a bruiser is blown completely out of the water compaired to a monk. Tanking is relatively equal with a slight advantage to the monk in tsunami, raid dps is relatively equal again all buffs/equip being similar, however when it comes to the raid wide buff and having some group appeal the monk outshines the bruiser hands down. So what really is it that makes a bruiser actually wanted then?</p><p>A few of my monk friends have been blindly offered guild web site addresses so that they can submit an online application because some of these guilds are actively seeking monks for raids or as back up. They were of course on a probation for a few weeks to see how they played out but still was offered a position based on class. I don't wish for bruisers to out tank, out dps, or even offer superior group abilities, but I do want bruisers to have something that separates them from a monk either it be tanking or dps but not both. After all from what little lore I have read about bruisers is that they were once ashen order monks who have forsaken tranquility and have taken an already impressive fighting style and honed it into a more powerful and deadly art.</p><p>Sorry starting to ramble again.</p></blockquote><p>My guild has even asked me to betray monk, as I am good player and they dont want to replace me on raids.  I told them I would if they reimburse me for my masters and help me get my fabled epic lol.</p></blockquote>I have been told to betray as well and it would help my raid situation. However noone willing to help me replace my masters that I have either if I did so I am not gonna betray lol.

[Novusod]

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>My guild has even asked me to betray monk, as I am good player and they dont want to replace me on raids.  I told them I would if they reimburse me for my masters and help me get my fabled epic lol.</blockquote>The guild I am in currently also wants me to go Monk but I keep digging my heels in hoping SoE will give us a better Raid-Wide and each update I am disapointed. It is very hard being a raiding bruiser when monks have so more going for them.

[Quicksilver74]

<p>I want to thank the devs for reading this thread.  It seems many of our concerns are being addressed in the next Expansion.   I will wait until the expansion hits before I edit the first post at the moment though, as everything is subject to change.  </p><p>  For those who don't know, We are getting some very very nice new treats in the expansion.  Some highlights are:</p><p>A deflection based Tsunami-like ability from AA.</p><p>A 2 charge Stoneskin, activatable, and only absorbs hits that would be 50% or more of your life. (From AA)</p><p>A Mitigation Boost through AA</p><p>2 more rescue-like abilities through AA</p><p>Our Raid Buff - is now going to add alot of things.   By Itself, it will now add Strength, Base Taunt ammount, and Base Combat Art Damage (5% base CA damage atm).   Through AA, we can give it 5% accuracy for both melee and spells, and a raidwide de-hate for all non fighters.  </p><p>And my favorite.... Finally a fantastic revamp to the STR line.  Basicly they are removing the unnarmed requirement, and changed it a little.   The debuff is pretty much the same, the double attack is now like 2.7 DA per point, adding up to 21 at rank 8.  And the defensive ability is a deflection bonus that is similar to how shield effectiveness works for plate tanks. </p><p>  There is alot more too, but I'm at work at the moment so coudl only post some highlights from memory.  Good things to come for the bruiser!</p>

[Aull]

<p>Thanks for the info Crabbok.</p>

[Mogzilla]

<p><cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I want to thank the devs for reading this thread.  It seems many of our concerns are being addressed in the next Expansion.   I will wait until the expansion hits before I edit the first post at the moment though, as everything is subject to change.  </p><p>  For those who don't know, We are getting some very very nice new treats in the expansion.  Some highlights are:</p><p>A deflection based Tsunami-like ability from AA.</p><p>A 2 charge Stoneskin, activatable, and only absorbs hits that would be 50% or more of your life. (From AA)</p><p>A Mitigation Boost through AA</p><p>2 more rescue-like abilities through AA</p><p>Our Raid Buff - is now going to add alot of things.   By Itself, it will now add Strength, Base Taunt ammount, and Base Combat Art Damage (5% base CA damage atm).   Through AA, we can give it 5% accuracy for both melee and spells, and a raidwide de-hate for all non fighters.  </p><p>And my favorite.... Finally a fantastic revamp to the STR line.  Basicly they are removing the unnarmed requirement, and changed it a little.   The debuff is pretty much the same, the double attack is now like 2.7 DA per point, adding up to 21 at rank 8.  And the defensive ability is a deflection bonus that is similar to how shield effectiveness works for plate tanks. </p><p>  There is alot more too, but I'm at work at the moment so coudl only post some highlights from memory.  Good things to come for the bruiser!</p></blockquote><p>sounds like they are turning into the pseudo bards of the tank class with an pretty big boost to our RW buff.</p>

[Rayche]

<p>This is a seriously interesting change of events for Bruisers.</p>

[Pnaxx]

<p><cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I want to thank the devs for reading this thread.  It seems many of our concerns are being addressed in the next Expansion.   I will wait until the expansion hits before I edit the first post at the moment though, as everything is subject to change.  </p><p>  For those who don't know, We are getting some very very nice new treats in the expansion.  Some highlights are:</p><p>A deflection based Tsunami-like ability from AA.</p><p>A 2 charge Stoneskin, activatable, and only absorbs hits that would be 50% or more of your life. (From AA)</p><p>A Mitigation Boost through AA</p><p>2 more rescue-like abilities through AA</p><p>Our Raid Buff - is now going to add alot of things.   By Itself, it will now add Strength, Base Taunt ammount, and Base Combat Art Damage (5% base CA damage atm).   Through AA, we can give it 5% accuracy for both melee and spells, and a raidwide de-hate for all non fighters.  </p><p>And my favorite.... Finally a fantastic revamp to the STR line.  Basicly they are removing the unnarmed requirement, and changed it a little.   The debuff is pretty much the same, the double attack is now like 2.7 DA per point, adding up to 21 at rank 8.  And the defensive ability is a deflection bonus that is similar to how shield effectiveness works for plate tanks. </p><p>  There is alot more too, but I'm at work at the moment so coudl only post some highlights from memory.  Good things to come for the bruiser!</p></blockquote><p>HOLY SMOKES! THANK YOU JESUS.</p>

[Arumizyr]

You mean i wont be asked to leave raids or just get dropped for another class now? OMG, OMG, thank you SoE for finally fixxing us after all these years.

[Mogzilla]

<p>Crane twirl from the brawler wisdom line is terrible compared to dragoons cyclone from the warior agi tree and trample from the crusader agi tree.</p><p><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Trample_%28Crusader%29">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Trample_%28Crusader%29</a></p><p> <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Dragoon%27s_Cyclone">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Dragoon%27s_Cyclone</a></p><p>Both have a higher % chance (40% vs 16% at max) to proc and both will do more damage because auto attack can be modfied with haste, double attack and dps mods.</p><p>Crane twirl has a lower precent to proc and will do signficantly less damage then either trample or cyclone due to not being affected by auto attack mods</p><p><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Crane_Twirl">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Crane_Twirl</a></p><p>This is especially compounded with mythicals.</p><p>If a dev reads this please consider changing crane twirl to a chance to hit with your auto attack vs just a flat aoe proc it is now.</p><p>With this new expansion aoe damage will be very vital to a fighters ability to get a group or a raid.</p><p>Brawlers are already behind zerkers, sks, and paladins aoe CA/spells, this just makes it worse </p>

[Aull]

<p>I agree with you Mogzilla. Crane twirl's set proc damage might have been great when aa's first came about, but with this expansion it is not strong enough. I think it should be or should have the chance to actually be rated from an auto attack damage with the chance to crit and not the current set damage it does.</p><p>I see brawlers as high single target damage fighters. If the brawlers become to strong in ae's then they will be the fighter of choice. However I have seen zerkers pull off outstanding single target dps in ROK in both average groups and in raids. Now if encounters would have been more previlent in ROK zerkers would have shined even more so. LOL I have a friend who has a raid brig w/mythical complain about the zerker w/mythical in his guild rivialing and beating the monk and a few scouts on raids. However the monk and scouts may not know how to play their toons well either, but again they are in a high end raiding guild so.</p><p>Sorry got off track on that. I do think that crane twirl should have a better chance to proc as well. Maybe something in the 25-30% range would do and damage again shouldn't be figured from a set standard proc number.</p><p>Thanks again</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p>I agree that crane twirl's damage hasn't scaled up over the years.  The same can be said about Mantis Bolt from the STA line.  Ideally, Mantis bolt should be more single target DPS than Crane Twirl, but this isn't the case.  Crane twirl owns mantis bolt both in single target and aoe.  I"m going to add both of these abilities to the list of issues. </p>

[Mogzilla]

<p>duplicate</p>

[Mogzilla]

<p><cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree that crane twirl's damage hasn't scaled up over the years.  The same can be said about Mantis Bolt from the STA line.  Ideally, Mantis bolt should be more single target DPS than Crane Twirl, but this isn't the case.  Crane twirl owns mantis bolt both in single target and aoe.  I"m going to add both of these abilities to the list of issues. </p></blockquote><p>Add this to:</p><p>All plate tanks get a passive hate gain from  getting hit:</p><p><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Innoruuk%27s_Caress">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Innoruuk%27s_Caress</a></p><p>This works great for them holding aggro on masses of mobs and one mob, as the more the plate tank gets hit the hate they give to the mob</p><p>To give this ability to brawlers would be a mistake as we dont get hit nearly as much due to higher avoidence.</p><p>Obviously this was recognized and the brawler equivelent:</p><p><span style="color: #01336b;"><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Manhandle">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Manhandle</a></span><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Roughhouse"></a></p><p>Procs hate on a single target on a successful melee attack.  Its not nearly as good because it works only against one mob vs many mobs like the plate tank passive getting hit works.  Its unblanced, theirs works againt one or 10 mobs, ours only works against one mob.</p><p>This needs to be changed to procing hate to an encounter to make it similar in ablity to the passive hate gain plate tanks get for holding aggro on multiple mobs when being hit.  The plate tank passive getting hit would also still be better because it would still work on non linked mobs vs procing against an encounter only.</p><p>Also it would be nice if shiftiness aa worked the same way (proc dehate in aoe) instead of a single target.</p><p><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Alternate:_Shiftiness">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Alternate:_Shiftiness</a></p><p>Since this is a self buff it can be taken off or used as needed.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p><cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #01336b;"><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Manhandle">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Manhandle</a></span><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Roughhouse"></a></p><p>Procs hate on a single target on a successful melee attack.</p><p>This needs to be changed to procing damage and hate in aoe to make it similar in ablity to the passive hate gain plate tanks get for holding aggro on multiple mobs.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not sure that is a major issue for a few reasons.  For one, we are intended to be better Single Target tanks as opposed to AoE tanks.  Additionally, we CAN proc it on multiple mobs.  Bruisers have 2 blue AoE's, and a third if you take the wisdom line, (Which you should do, especially if you are wanting to tank multi mob encounters).  Additionally if we get Crane FLock from going all the way down the WIS line, that gives us a forth ability that can be used to proc manhandle on AoE mobs. </p><p>Personally I am happy with our manhandle line the way it is.  Changing it to AoE would no doubt force it's hate and damage to be reduced to make up fo rthe added AoE proc, and that would efefctively give us LESS hate on single target mobs, where we are supposed to shine. </p>

[Mogzilla]

<p><cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #01336b;"><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Manhandle">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Manhandle</a></span><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Roughhouse"></a></p><p>Procs hate on a single target on a successful melee attack.</p><p>This needs to be changed to procing damage and hate in aoe to make it similar in ablity to the passive hate gain plate tanks get for holding aggro on multiple mobs.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not sure that is a major issue for a few reasons.  For one, we are intended to be better Single Target tanks as opposed to AoE tanks. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Well thats great and all but this xpac is all about AoE from my experience and I dont know if you have noticed it or not, but the supposed AoE tanks (Sk, zerk, paladin) are not very far at all behind us on single target aggro.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">All the new rescue abilities from TSO lines and the reduce recast on rescue have addressed their weaknesses far more then they have addressed ours (aoe content)</span></p><p>Additionally, we CAN proc it on multiple mobs.  Bruisers have 2 blue AoE's, and a third if you take the wisdom line, (Which you should do, especially if you are wanting to tank multi mob encounters).  Additionally if we get Crane FLock from going all the way down the WIS line, that gives us a forth ability that can be used to proc manhandle on AoE mobs. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">As far as I know manhandle only works on auto attack</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"> And crane flock is "ok", but its benefits monks much more with their high levels of self haste.  I am not speced for crane flock after the changes to the str line.  20 secs of aoe double attacks every 3 mins < chi, uncontested deflection and 21% DA.</span></p><p>Personally I am happy with our manhandle line the way it is.  Changing it to AoE would no doubt force it's hate and damage to be reduced to make up fo rthe added AoE proc, and that would efefctively give us LESS hate on single target mobs, where we are supposed to shine. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Not necessarily, and my single target aggro is fine, especially on named fights where it counts, all the new rescues, reduced recast on rescue, chi and KO plue 21% more double attack, not to mention drag and D an C.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If you lose aggro on a single target as a bruiser, you fail at being a bruiser imo.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Its AoE that we really struggle.</span></p></blockquote>

[Quicksilver74]

<p>I agree with you that the STR line is better for us than the WIS line, but what I am saying is that as a bruiser you do have the option of getting the WIS line, so if AoE aggro is yoru concern, you DO have the option.  Personally, I have both lines.  Chi + Knockout and then 3 blue AoE's is pretty much awesome AoE aggro.  Sure you can't use Chi every fight but you don't have to.  </p><p>   Additionally there are more AoE tools available to us.  Divide and conquer now gives hate positions and can be cast while moving, which is very nice, and if you put the points into it you can have it lock an entire encounter.  Additionally we can enhance our raid buff to give de-hate to non fighters, which is yet another way of indirectly increasing our ability to hold aggro on both single target and AoE fights. </p><p>   I wouldn't mind seeing manhandle buffed to proc encounter hate or something similar, but I wouldn't want it at the cost of lowering it's damage or it's overall threat ammount per proc.  Typically, when SoE changes something about us, they tend to "balance" it out by removing a benefit from somewhere else.  Adding AoE to manhandle would more than likely result in either less hate, less damage, or less of a proc percentage; neither of which would be good. </p>

[Mogzilla]

<p><cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree with you that the STR line is better for us than the WIS line, but what I am saying is that as a bruiser you do have the option of getting the WIS line, so if AoE aggro is yoru concern, you DO have the option.  Personally, I have both lines.  Chi + Knockout and then 3 blue AoE's is pretty much awesome AoE aggro.  Sure you can't use Chi every fight but you don't have to.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I am spec'ed down the wisdome line to crane twirl and my aoe aggro is poor, I have to tell classes with good aoe's to hold back or I will lose aggro and they will die.  Even with a dirge in the group.  I have my mythical and VP gear, all my aoe's,  encounter taunt, and d & c  is mastered.</span></p><p>      I wouldn't mind seeing manhandle buffed to proc encounter hate or something similar, but I wouldn't want it at the cost of lowering it's damage or it's overall threat ammount per proc.  Typically, when SoE changes something about us, they tend to "balance" it out by removing a benefit from somewhere else.  Adding AoE to manhandle would more than likely result in either less hate, less damage, or less of a proc percentage; neither of which would be good. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Not necessarily, we dont have passive hate gain by getting hit like plate tanks have, which works for them against single target and aoe content.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Giving us passive hate gain when getting hit would be stupid because are supposed to be avoidence tanks.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So they gave us a hate proc to compensate. (manhandle)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The problem is that manhandle only works 1 mob, so this severly disadvantages us vs the plate tanks.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Making manhandle proc hate to the encounter would not be buffing us, but just giving us abilities more in line with what plate tanks already have.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Same goes for monks.</span></p></blockquote>

[Quicksilver74]

<p>Just wanted to throw this out there. </p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?&topic_id=437332">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=437332</a></p><p>From Aeralik</p><p><em>Just to touch on this since it seems to be a common complaint lately but just because there is more aoe content in this expansion does not mean every class is going to be reworked to be an aoe specialist.  Some are better at aoe encounters while others will be better at single target encounters.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>Seems to me that we are meant to struggle with AoE, as it's always been.  Bottom line is we gotta do our best, and yeah, you should absolutely tell the warlock to take it easy on a big AoE pull.   I doubt this would be an issue if there were more single target zones in this expac.   Look at Maiden's....  Mostly single target encounters and it was always really easy for us to manage (aggro I mean). </p><p>  Personally, I do very well on AoE encounters.  I hit chi, knockout, my 3 blue AoE's, and crane flock and go to town, tabbing through targets, if it's multiple encounters I have to hit F8 instead of Tab, and trying like hell to be aware of whats going on, making sure there isn't a straggler beating on a mage or healer.   The problem is when it's a zone of ALL aoe encounters... when I will have to do alot of fights with no AoE, because all temps are down....   It's a challenge, but I think asking for more AoE hate might be overpowered atm. </p><p>On the plus side, there are some items that can SERIOUSLY help our AoE tanking ability.   The Belt from Re2 with Mutagenic burst, plus theres a fabled earring or ring with the same proc.   There is an awesome fabled leather helm from Scion of Ice,  that has an AoE damage proc.   There are also belts that have an activatable Blue AoE Taunt.   One is a trash drop from Tomb of the Mad Crusader, procs about 2,900 hate on everything in range.  </p><p>Hopefully some of these options might help. </p><p>On a sidenote, I'd LOVE to see more AoE procs on weapons.  There was a weapon from Emerald Halls that had an AoE proc, also the IceDusters from T5 had a Frost Gale Proc, 4 target blue AoE.   Was really nice. </p>

[Aull]

<p>I have no problem with the fact that my bruiser isn't the best at ae aggro and damage. Keeping it the way it is will be fine for me since I like individuality. Again if all fighters can do the same thing why have six of them?</p><p> If brawlers are not to be great aoe fighters then brawlers should have the potential to be much better at single target damage then the other aoe fighters. As I see it some zerkers are doing just as good dps wise on single targets compaired to brawlers, yet zerks do very well dps wise against encounter fights as well.</p><p>Anyway I just think that brawlers should be well ahead in single target dps vs the aoe plate fighters.</p><p>Any thoughts?</p>

[Mogzilla]

<p><cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just wanted to throw this out there. </p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?&topic_id=437332">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=437332</a></p><p>From Aeralik</p><p><em>Just to touch on this since it seems to be a common complaint lately but just because there is more aoe content in this expansion does not mean every class is going to be reworked to be an aoe specialist.  Some are better at aoe encounters while others will be better at single target encounters.</em></p><p><em><span style="color: #ff0000;">Except the aggro/dps gap between us and the so called "aoe tanks" is huge, the gap between our single target aggro and theirs is not that large.</span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: #ff0000;">If I am doing 3k threat per second on a single target most zerkers in similar gear are doing about 2.5k threat per second.</span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: #ff0000;">On aoe's its not even close my dps goes down against 3 mobs or more, if was doing 3k threat per second, its now like 2.5 threat per second because the fights are longer and aoe's dps/aggro is not that good.</span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: #ff0000;">Zerkers and SK's almost double their dps on aoe content, I have seen them hitting 10K plus on large grps of mobs, the SK in my guild parses almost exactly the same as the conj on large grps of mobs.</span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: #ff0000;">The gap is far far to large.</span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: #ff0000;">Especially when you consider the reduced recast on rescue and the other new rescue like abilites are single target only.  Addressing their weaknesses not ours.</span></em></p><p><em></em></p><p>  Personally, I do very well on AoE encounters.  I hit chi, knockout, my 3 blue AoE's, and crane flock and go to town, tabbing through targets, if it's multiple encounters I have to hit F8 instead of Tab, and trying like hell to be aware of whats going on, making sure there isn't a straggler beating on a mage or healer.   The problem is when it's a zone of ALL aoe encounters... when I will have to do alot of fights with no AoE, because all temps are down....   It's a challenge, but I think asking for more AoE hate might be overpowered atm. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So when running instances you only pull encounters every 6 minutes when chi is up?  That is not a solution man.  Asking for manhandle to be changed to +threat to an encounter would be fixing a currently broken game mechanic.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Plate tanks passive hate gain comes from getting hit, our from hitting the mob.  Theirs works against 1 mob as well as it does against 20 (better actually), ours only works when hitting one mob.  Manhandle should proc hate in aoe or to the encounter imo.</span> </p><p>On the plus side, there are some items that can SERIOUSLY help our AoE tanking ability.   The Belt from Re2 with Mutagenic burst, plus theres a fabled earring or ring with the same proc.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I have that belt, its not that great imo.   The stats suck and we dont get hit that much for it to proc.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Also fixing inate class problems with gear is never a good solution imo.</span></p><p>There is an awesome fabled leather helm from Scion of Ice,  that has an AoE damage proc.   There are also belts that have an activatable Blue AoE Taunt.   One is a trash drop from Tomb of the Mad Crusader, procs about 2,900 hate on everything in range.  </p><p>Hopefully some of these options might help. </p><p>On a sidenote, I'd LOVE to see more AoE procs on weapons.  There was a weapon from Emerald Halls that had an AoE proc, also the IceDusters from T5 had a Frost Gale Proc, 4 target blue AoE.   Was really nice. </p></blockquote><p>I still think the wis line crane twirl needs revamped to be more in line with the other fighter aoe lines adn that manhandle needs to proc hate to the encounter to counter plate tanks passive hate gain from getting hit.</p>

[Mogzilla]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have no problem with the fact that my bruiser isn't the best at ae aggro and damage. Keeping it the way it is will be fine for me since I like individuality. Again if all fighters can do the same thing why have six of them?</p><p> If brawlers are not to be great aoe fighters then brawlers should have the potential to be much better at single target damage then the other aoe fighters. As I see it some zerkers are doing just as good dps wise on single targets compaired to brawlers, yet zerks do very well dps wise against encounter fights as well.</p><p>Anyway I just think that brawlers should be well ahead in single target dps vs the aoe plate fighters.</p><p>Any thoughts?</p></blockquote><p>Here is my point, all fighters are designed to be tanks, that means take hits an hold aggro.</p><p>Right now it is almost impossible for brawlers to hold aggro consistently (not chi + ko combo every 6 minutes) against any well played aoe class in similar quality gear.</p><p>Even with a bard in the group.</p><p>But zerkers single target aggro is barely behind ours, the zerker in my guild is of similar gear as mine and usualy parses about 300-500 dps less then me on single targets.</p><p>On aoe content he completely owns me, its not even close.  He parses like 2-3k more then me, and keeps up with the guilds conj, only really being beat by the warlock.</p><p>Then when you factor the reduced recast on rescue and all the new single target rescue like abilities, they are clearly head and shoulders the best all around tanks in this expansion (them and SK, and paladins), when like 90% of the content is more then one mob.</p><p>I dont mind them having better aoe/aggro dps then me, but the gap is far to large as i currently is.</p><p>We should be parsing just below them in aoe, just like they parse just below us in single targets.  A 500 dps differnce, not a 2-3k difference.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Good post Mogzilla. I do agree with you all the way. Again my issues are exactly what you have described. The difference between brawlers single target dps vs other plates (zerkers more so) is very very minimal. Ae is totally a different story with like you stated massive increases in dps in favor of the aoe plates.</p><p>Again I don't have faith that there will ever be a way to please fighter players as long as there are six tanks. To many variables to contend with.</p>

[Mogzilla]

<p><span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ffffff;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"></span></span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ffffff;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span><a name="4896933">Brawler TSO aversion achievement line is bugged</a></span></span></span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ffffff;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span>Each acheivment point is supposed to add </span>1.2% to the minimum (uncontested) deflection amount of the brawlers mid and defensive stances.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I spent 1 point in this and the % changes show on the spell descriptions in my defensive stance (went from 16% to 17.2%), however my % chance to deflect and over all avoidence in my persona window did not go up at all.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Can a dev look into this?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">How can your base minimum chance to deflect go up and it not increase your % chance to deflect and overall avoidence in the persona window?</span></p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p>Yes Aversion has been bugged like that since Beta.  I suspect it's just a display graphic, IE the numbers working, just not showing.   I say this because it does "feel" like my avoidance is higher with it.  I know thats not a scientific way of doing things, just my gut. </p><p>   Would love it getting fixxed, and have /feedbacked it, suggest you all /bug and or /feedback it also.</p>

[Dodgem]

<p>Anyone else seen any dps issues with bruisers lately?  With 54% melee crit and 40% haste I had 11 crits on a one minute fight.  If you add in my 57% DA, my dps was only 2400, which was pretty far down on the raid dps.  Prior to the TSO expansion I was in the top 5 in dps.  I am not even close now.  Eleven crits when everyone else is several times higher seems like a problem.</p>

[Aull]

<p>There has been a thread started in the "in testing feedback" on rock skin being changed. I think this useless ability is definately one bruiser ability that is in total need of becoming replaced with a blue aoe to help bruisers be this so called aoe fighter that everyone is stating we are or suppose to be.</p><p>If any of you bruisers that have any suggestions please post your opinions. Not sure that anything will become of it soon but this is an ability that I feel most bruisers should have replaced with something useful.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p>Updated today</p>

[Lethe5683]

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ffffff;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"></span></span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ffffff;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span><a name="4896933">Brawler TSO aversion achievement line is bugged</a></span></span></span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ffffff;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span>Each acheivment point is supposed to add </span>1.2% to the minimum (uncontested) deflection amount of the brawlers mid and defensive stances.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I spent 1 point in this and the % changes show on the spell descriptions in my defensive stance (went from 16% to 17.2%), however my % chance to deflect and over all avoidence in my persona window did not go up at all.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Can a dev look into this?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">How can your base minimum chance to deflect go up and it not increase your % chance to deflect and overall avoidence in the persona window?</span></p></blockquote> I'm pretty sure that's because it doesn't increase your maximum avoidance but just makes an additional 1.2% of your current deflection uncontested.

[Quicksilver74]

<p>Updated.  Added Lightning Fist and Itemization. </p>

[EQVet32]

<p>Anyone have a timeline or a glimmer of a hope for when Myth proc and AA heal bonus will be fixed? It is sad that this is an issue every time and we are never gotten to quickly.</p>

[Arrowheart]

<p><cite>EQVet32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Anyone have a timeline or a glimmer of a hope for when Myth proc and AA heal bonus will be fixed? It is sad that this is an issue every time and we are never gotten to quickly.</p></blockquote><p>Mythical and Bruiser Tree AA Enhance Ignore Wounds Fixed according to latest hotfix notes.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p>Updated to include problems with strikethrough, and add that altruism needs to be able to cast on self. </p>

[truetrue]

<p>I ran many shard runs and I would like to offer the  bruisers my experiences:</p><p>With all TSO Tier 1 armors ( with some tier 2 ), I am still at the lowest rank of dps in every group. I just use CAs properly between the autoattack. Every fighters ( except brawlers ) parsed like 1k more than mine. My dps is always 1k-2k. When I am doing the tank, I cannot hold the aggro longer ( even with divide/conquer and many AAs on tank abiilities ).</p><p>Also, I dont see many bruisers around at 80s, and often the groups chose any other class over bruisers.</p><p>I would like to see that warriors should be best tanks while brawlers should be weak tanks but better dps than warriors.</p><p>Tank: Warrior > crusader > brawler</p><p>DPS: Brawler > crusader > warrior.</p><p>Make sense? Every paladin and shadowknight always outdps me >_></p><p>Remodel the raid buff would be nice. Make this spell, Stun mit buff, something more useful.</p><p>Make bruisers more useful enough to be demand for raids.</p><p>Just a penny from me.</p>

[Couching]

<p>Of course every SK and pal can outparse you in daily heroic groups because they have way better aoe dps than brawlers.</p><p>That's why fighter balance in TSO is totally broken for casual brawlers in heroic content-worst heroic tank in dps, aggro and survivability.</p>

[Dechau]

<p><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Of course every SK and pal can outparse you in daily heroic groups because they have way better aoe dps than brawlers.</p><p>That's why fighter balance in TSO is totally broken for casual brawlers in heroic content-worst heroic tank in dps, aggro and survivability.</p></blockquote><p>Pally's do not out parse me, not in raids, not in heroic instances..</p><p>Sure it happens on single parses, but on the ZW they are always lower..</p><p>Wont even start to complare to an OP SK..</p><p>Lets just hope its our turn to shine soon also <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Illine]

<p><cite>Dechau wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Of course every SK and pal can outparse you in daily heroic groups because they have way better aoe dps than brawlers.</p><p>That's why fighter balance in TSO is totally broken for casual brawlers in heroic content-worst heroic tank in dps, aggro and survivability.</p></blockquote><p>Pally's do not out parse me, not in raids, not in heroic instances..</p><p>Sure it happens on single parses, but on the ZW they are always lower..</p><p>Wont even start to complare to an OP SK..</p><p>Lets just hope its our turn to shine soon also <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>a paladin will easily outparse a bruiser in AE dps. If consecrate is up they do nice damage and they hold aggro better.</p><p>And for le dps, it depends on the buffs. The gear of both paladin and bruiser but on single target we are better.</p>

[Aule]

If you're comparing "if consecrate is up" then you oughta compare "if knockout combination is up" too. I will agree bruiser dps is widely inconsistent due to the burst nature of our dps. Mine is mostly instance geared, with a couple ward of elements pieces and 2 set from alt raid drops. I can vary between 3k-11k based on what was up at the time of pull. Get a good chi + knockout + lycanthrope bracelet + crane flock on a 4 mob encounter and it's loads of fun. My coercer, for comparison, is drastically consistent. Pulling 9-10k in instances on any single target that lives longer than about 10s. I would add that a number of our combat arts and aa's are STILL modified by base spell damage and spell crit rate. This should have been corrected the same time proc's got nerfed, blade chime got switched to melee crit, and predators got taken care of.

[Dechau]

<p><cite>Illine@Storms wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dechau wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Of course every SK and pal can outparse you in daily heroic groups because they have way better aoe dps than brawlers.</p><p>That's why fighter balance in TSO is totally broken for casual brawlers in heroic content-worst heroic tank in dps, aggro and survivability.</p></blockquote><p>Pally's do not out parse me, not in raids, not in heroic instances..</p><p>Sure it happens on single parses, but on the ZW they are always lower..</p><p>Wont even start to complare to an OP SK..</p><p>Lets just hope its our turn to shine soon also <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>a paladin will easily outparse a bruiser in AE dps. If consecrate is up they do nice damage and they hold aggro better.</p><p>And for le dps, it depends on the buffs. The gear of both paladin and bruiser but on single target we are better.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe you are right Pally's can do alot of damage IF they consecrate is up..</p><p>But, IF my CHI is up, and IF my Knockout is up, and IF my crane flock is up, and IF the Shammy choses to cast RoR on me, and IF the Trouby Jcap me I will still out parse him..</p><p>I'm not talking about if's and when things are up and ready, cause no MT will hold pull for your next Consecrate EVER..</p><p>ZW Bruisrs are above Pally as of now, and we should be. Period <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[etch666]

<p>By far the biggest issues for me on the list are hit rate while tanking and strikethrough. If these could be fixed in an update and not via aa's in new expansion I would be a happy bruiser.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Theoretically as long as a bruiser is strongly group buffed and combine that with the bruisers chi + knockout then yes no other fighter will possibly be near the bruisers damage potential on single target. Bruisers have a wonderful high ceiling for dps growth and that ceiling is greatest of all the fighters. So even without chi + knockout a buffed bruiser should still lay a smack down that rivials the rogues.</p><p>Paladins, sk's, and zerkers should have higher zonewides than a bruiser. Yes bruisers can "burst" a particular ae fight decently high on the parse, but not on a consistant basis.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Paladins, sk's, and zerkers should have higher zonewides than a bruiser.  </p></blockquote><p>Thats the way it IS, but not the way it SHOULD BE.  Bruisers have always been the top parsing fighter until recently.  Even our name implies we are DPS machines.  That was really the original attraticeness when creating a bruiser back in 2004, the quest to become a bruiser, the descriptions of the class, the name itself.  Bruiser was a beat-down, smackaround, fist in yoru face kinda class that was very fun and also was usefull to raids.  </p><p>  I'd like my old bruiser back please. </p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>Crabbok@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Paladins, sk's, and zerkers should have higher zonewides than a bruiser.  </p></blockquote><p>Thats the way it IS, but not the way it SHOULD BE.  Bruisers have always been the top parsing fighter until recently.  Even our name implies we are DPS machines.  That was really the original attraticeness when creating a bruiser back in 2004, the quest to become a bruiser, the descriptions of the class, the name itself.  Bruiser was a beat-down, smackaround, fist in yoru face kinda class that was very fun and also was usefull to raids.  </p><p>  I'd like my old bruiser back please. </p></blockquote><p>I totally agree. For years I viewed bruisers as the assassins of the fighter arch type do to the fact that bruisers never had a defensive ability that outshined any offensive abilities... pre tso. All bruisers had was their higher dps as their calling card.</p><p>Now this is not the case anymore. I didn't mean to imply that zerkers, sk's, and pallys should be higher but rather as you stated it Crabbok.</p><p>Oh yes bruisers are evil and they should do exactly as their name states.....they should bruise.</p>

[Wengchun]

<p>I'm just going to voice my opinions on Bruiser's in general -vs- other fighter/tanks and the complete lack of balance as if this thread was just started. It goes without saying that this has only continued to get worse over time and I can only imagine how those players such as Crabbok who have played the class since launch feel as nerf after nerf or worse the "meh" upgrade has come in the expansions. Every time I see an SK pounding on 8 mobs and holding agro and smoking out parses to boot....... or an assasin that autoattacks for 5k while grabbing a drink, my love for this class dies a little bit. I'm not hating on the other classes in the game by any means, I'm saying where's the balance at? We as a whole are the "utility" of the tanking/dps world. I'd just like to see it come down to brawler's being able to spec to be effective and desirable one way or the other, the constant middle the road's gotta go. When as an "MA", buffed and with stats such as 80+% avoidance,60+% crit mit, 19-20+k health, 50-60%mit....... trash mobs in TSO can still blow through all that and one shot your beloved toon and leave you thinking"wow,this floor is pretty cold" while you get to watch a guard with 12-13k, and t2 gear smile and ask "WHO WANTS SOME" I kinda scratch my head ........ and I wont get started on DPS because thats a long list of gripes that have been voiced numerous times to no avail. I'm not saying for developers to make our class the best at anything, just tweak us so that skill with the class can make a difference. I'll leave on this note......... Rock Skin.......</p>