Make the game dangerous again

[Cracklep]

That says it all right there.  I'm not talking about instances, that's on a case by case basis. I'm talking about failed disarmed chests that explode and that can seriously injure or kill you, not just give you a little scratch.  Why bother even having a disarm skill?  What happened to the fizzling spells?Failed tradeskill counter spells that cause real damage.   The forge used to be a real killer.  Make it so again.  Now, if I fail, I might lose 5 points of health, if any at all.     Along this line is the jump down from the top of Freeport TS to the bottom floor.   Nary a scratch, and without any kind of safefall.    Safefall in general is too pillowy soft.  Just about every class gets it or glide or float or some kind of fall nerf.  You should be afraid to jump.  Your safefall should be how many HPs you have.  (This is the usual safefall method for tanks.  heh)  Speaking of fear...   Make the zones really dangerous again.  Remember when Nek Forest was dreaded by all making their way to the dock?  Agro everywhere.  Even the paths weren't safe.   Bring back the tons of killing involved in betraying.   Having to group up to kill some nameds is a lot more fun that just having to switch out a few clipboards (for Freeport --> Qeynos).   Betraying should take more than just one afternoon to complete.  I know,  they made all these changes because ppl were whining about having a real challenge in the game.  Now it's just grinding.  Long, slow, tedious grinding.  Where is the adventure?  Where is the challenge?/hidesoapbox

[interstellarmatter]

<p>Everytime that they make something hard, people come here and complain.  You can see examples are current threads right here..for example, not being able to 3 group a 6 group instance.</p><p>*shrug* I was playing at the beginning and I had never wanted them to change anything.  But I'm in the minority apparently.</p>

[Clova]

<cite>Cracklepop wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>That says it all right there.  I'm not talking about instances, that's on a case by case basis. I'm talking about failed disarmed chests that explode and that can seriously injure or kill you, not just give you a little scratch.  Why bother even having a disarm skill?  What happened to the fizzling spells?Failed tradeskill counter spells that cause real damage.   The forge used to be a real killer.  Make it so again.  Now, if I fail, I might lose 5 points of health, if any at all.     Along this line is the jump down from the top of Freeport TS to the bottom floor.   Nary a scratch, and without any kind of safefall.    Safefall in general is too pillowy soft.  Just about every class gets it or glide or float or some kind of fall nerf.  You should be afraid to jump.  Your safefall should be how many HPs you have.  (This is the usual safefall method for tanks.  heh)  Speaking of fear...   Make the zones really dangerous again.  Remember when Nek Forest was dreaded by all making their way to the dock?  Agro everywhere.  Even the paths weren't safe.   Bring back the tons of killing involved in betraying.   Having to group up to kill some nameds is a lot more fun that just having to switch out a few clipboards (for Freeport --> Qeynos).   Betraying should take more than just one afternoon to complete.  I know,  they made all these changes because ppl were whining about having a real challenge in the game.  Now it's just grinding.  Long, slow, tedious grinding.  Where is the adventure?  Where is the challenge?/hidesoapbox</p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">I agree with the tradeskilling,</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;"> floating with arasi / faes should be left alone (i like jumping form the top to bottom of Gorowyn and not take any damage hehe)</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">Im glad they changed Nek. For me, back in 05 before i quit, hardly anything was soloable(i was a fury, just lik mynewly restarted toon is now) I think they did take the "lets make soloing easy" bat too much however. When i can run a level3 arasi or however you spell it thorugh Nek forest and only die 3 times...something is wrong <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;"> and, while i have personally never done betraying, it just makes sense in my mind that it SHOULD take a while.</span></p></blockquote>due to my idiotness, i forgt to write that OUTSIDE the quote box....so its now red..

[Cracklep]

Yes, I'll agree that fae and arasai should be allowed to float or glide.   They have wings.But why does my Dark Elf Brigand get safefall AND float?   I assume the safefall is for the scout class, but why do dark elves float?

[Oh]

<cite>Cracklepop wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, I'll agree that fae and arasai should be allowed to float or glide.   They have wings.But why does my Dark Elf Brigand get safefall AND float?   I assume the safefall is for the scout class, but why do dark elves float?</blockquote>Not all races get a safefall/float/glide/freefall ability. Example my woodelf, and my half elf don't. It would be neat in a way if all races got something but they don't cest la vive.

[StormCinder]

<p>Will. Never. Happen.</p><p>The trend is to make the game more "open and inviting" to new players.  New players are confused and frustrated enough at the current "complexity" and "difficulty."</p><p>SC</p><p>EDIT: Feel free to substitute whatever phrase you like for "open and inviting."</p>

[Mariss]

<ul><li><span class="postbody">Remember when Nek Forest was dreaded by all making their way to the dock?</span></li></ul><span class="postbody">Amen to that!I left for a couple years and came back and was shocked how easy it was to run through Nek.Personally, if a lot of that content stayed the same, there'd still be a higher demand for mid-level items/crafting.  It'd keep the game fun and the in-game economy strong.  I also miss the access quests just to reach other islands/continents in the world. (which alone would cut down drastically on the bot/plat farming on some servers)I would like to see guards for cities and various public zones increased in power when expansions up the level limit too.  I miss when it was an uncommon occurance to see an evil aligned toon hangin around casually in Antonica (let alone Qeynos).Biggest reason you don't see much need for groups at low-mid levels anymore is because it's no longer needed to fast burn through levels.  Many new players to EQ2 come in expecting to interact with other players but never stick around simply because they are ignored until they reach a level where grouping is somewhat needed (these days usually around KoS and even then just for Sanctum).When I returned after a couple years last November, I was shocked to see my new main toon into lvl 70 within a month of casual play time.  And that was draggin my feet.</span>

[Ravaan]

<p>omg you can't do that because then the solo/casual gamers would cry ... everytime you add a heroic mob to an overland zone a casual gamer commits suicide. </p><p>THINK OF THEM!</p><p>Sorry to say this but the casual gamer has nearly killed this genre. instead of playing Oblivion or any of the other thousands of RPGs out there they decided to play MMORPGs and dumb the genre into a MSPORPG (Massive Single Player online Role Playing game).</p><p> pretty soon we will get to "progress quest" where you press a button and you level. because god forbid we don't want monsters to be able to fight casual gamers ... then they might actually have to pay attention or esle they might die. And that will hurt thier confidence and they might quit the game because they are depressed.</p>

[Clova]

<p>oh yes, because those of us that do many groups NEVER want to solo because we want time to ourselves... because there is no middle gorund between soloers and groupers.</p><p> /end sarcasm</p>

[Calris]

<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Everytime that they make something hard, people come here and complain. </p></blockquote>There's a difference between making things hard and making them needlessly frustrating. Lethal chest traps don't make them "hard". It makes them frustrating.If you want hard, you got dungeons. There should be options for those who don't want to have playing the game be akin to banging their head against the wall.

[Calris]

<cite>Mariss@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><ul><li><span class="postbody">Remember when Nek Forest was dreaded by all making their way to the dock?</span></li></ul><span class="postbody">Amen to that!I left for a couple years and came back and was shocked how easy it was to run through Nek.Personally, if a lot of that content stayed the same, there'd still be a higher demand for mid-level items/crafting. </span></blockquote>No, there wouldn't because the game would be a ghost town.

[Soulforged_Unre]

<cite>Cracklepop wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, I'll agree that fae and arasai should be allowed to float or glide.   They have wings.But why does my Dark Elf Brigand get safefall AND float?   I assume the safefall is for the scout class, but why do dark elves float?</blockquote>All scouts get safe fall, no matter what race.As for dark elves and float, you should try reading a fantasy story with Drow (Dark elves) in it sometimes, float/hover is a general innate ability to Dark elves, not just in EQ2.

[Dasein]

Bringing back fizzles would be disastrous. Remember that fizzles applied to any spell or spell effect, including potions. Try a raid that requires everyone to be cured of an effect, like Venril, with fizzles and see how long fizzles last. It's not the casuals that would be hurt by them, since solo and group content generally doesn't require that sort of split-second timing. Having chests prove fatal was more of an annoyance than anything, although it did cost people loot a few times, which is really frustrating. Beyond tha,t however, it didn't make the game challenging at all. The change to falling damage is actually quite a nice improvement, and adding things like glide abilities makes moving around fun. Sometimes games can actually be fun, and not kill you. For too long, EQ2 was known as EverCan't for all the limitations the devs put on everything. Loosening things up a bit was a big improvement.

[orchard54]

So SOE made the lower half levels easier, I think this was a smart move due to new players incoming, and older players playing their high level characters, substantially decreasing the chance to group. Sure, changes to older players seem to make the game too "dumbed" down, but not every new character can afford all adept 3's/mastercrafted armor. Besides, the lower levels go by so quick, whats the point in making it harder? and cause new players to have to struggle through the lower levels where groups and help are at an all time low.

[YeldarbSpiritbla]

<p>To tell you the truth, I can see both ends of the argument.</p><p>Usually, in ANY mmo, older content is made easier so that new players can "catch up" to older players faster, and enjoy newer content with their friends that may have been in the game for a longer amount of time. Also, who wants to go through "all that" over again on their alt, when, most of the time, you just want to get your alt up in levels to enjoy newer content longer?</p><p>However, who wants to group with "newb154" that's 70-80th level and just plain does not know what they are doing because they have been "babied" for X levels? Seems to me your just transferring their frustration to older players because they have to put up with dying multiple times in a group that has "newb154" in it.</p><p>Some changes are for the better, and some for the worse, but all in all, I have my friends that I play with, and trust. I usually don't have to worry about "newb154" because I very rarely put up with pug's, and will usually kick someone from a group that just doesn't get it. So, in that vein, it really doesn't effect me very much.</p><p>This argument just seems funny to me because we all started as newbs at one time in the game, and hundreds of thousands of players were just fine, and leveled and survived "in the good old days". Shoot, I didn't even have adept III's or masters, or even MC gear until 50th. Why can't thousands, or even hundreds of "newbs" make it through even level 10 without being handed masters and awesome gear at every turn? Not to mention the "updated" zones with easier mobs and quick leveling. I thought my first plat in the 40's was the most exciting thing when now players complain if they can't have a full set of MC and masters by level 10. Heck, on my alts, I don't even bother with app II's or higher till at least 40's because there is just no need.</p>

[denmom]

<cite>Cracklepop wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, I'll agree that fae and arasai should be allowed to float or glide.   They have wings.But why does my Dark Elf Brigand get safefall AND float?   I assume the safefall is for the scout class, but why do dark elves float?</blockquote>You can still work your Dark Elf brigand's safe fall.Just don't cast Hover.  It's an "until canceled" buff.I forgot to cast Hover on my DE Warden the other day, took a jump off the sokokar as it came in for a landing to Dreg's Landing and was very surprised when I took a good chunk of damage.Oops.Same thing for High Elves and Erudites.  Only way to work a Fae/Arasai's safe fall is to get them a cheap pony and do a lot of leaping off of things.  Can't float with one, tho can with a carpet.

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Soulforged_Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cracklepop wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, I'll agree that fae and arasai should be allowed to float or glide.   They have wings.But why does my Dark Elf Brigand get safefall AND float?   I assume the safefall is for the scout class, but why do dark elves float?</blockquote>All scouts get safe fall, no matter what race.As for dark elves and float, you should try reading a fantasy story with Drow (Dark elves) in it sometimes, float/hover is a general innate ability to Dark elves, not just in EQ2.</blockquote>No, it's not.There has been no fiction or fantasy book that ever gave Drow (or elves in general) featherfall as an innate ability.In D&D, no Elf has a racial or innate ability which allows flight, glide, feather-falling or levitation of any type.The particular ability you are referring to is confined only to Drow of nobility, and is granted through use of a device (a house symbol) which they wear in a pouch around their necks. Should this device break (which is what happens to Drizz't) or simply be left at home, the dark elf cannot levitate.High Elves have no such power or item, outside of the spells available to all caster-types no matter what race they are.You'll find no reference to it in the core rulesets (any version) and not in any obscure works either, like Mongoose's The Quintessential Elf, for example.Lord of the Rings: (et al)In no passage of Lord of the Rings (or any other Tolkein book, for that matter) is there a description of an Elf embued with the powers of flight, or the innate ability to control their descent through air.EverQuest and Norrath:In all the history and lore of Norrath not a single elf ever had the innate power to reduce their falling-speed. Certain classes have safe-fall, but this is not limited by race. In fact, it is documented that no race ever flew without the aid of a) wings or b) a magic spell or magic item. Until the racial changes, which fly [pun intended] in the face of established Lore.Finally, there are a handful of ficitious characters who can fly without the aid of wings, magic or devices, and they are either super-heroes or Peter Pan (who is not an elf, merely "a boy" and probably sprinkled with fairy dust). AFAIK, the only elves in fiction that can fly are the Elves of Blue Mountain, in the ElfQuest comicbooks, and then not all of that particular tribe have the power, and no other elves in that continuity are so bestowed.So I think you'll find that in fiction, just as in the alphabet, when it comes to the power of natural flight, elephants come before elves. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" />

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Only way to work a Fae/Arasai's safe fall is to get them a cheap pony and do a lot of leaping off of things.  Can't float with one, tho can with a carpet.</blockquote>Not with the status bought carpet. That acts like a regular mount.

[Todra_B]

<p>I do like the floatie races. I have a arasai assassin that is a lot of fun. My Main Dwarf Fury is a cannonball. He died a few times in his first trips in Greater Faydark.</p><p>Mr Wolfie... Remember in ElfQuest Rayek of the Sunfolk learned to levitate and fly after much learning and effort, he was clumsy compared to the Blue Mountain Elves until he used their power after Blue Mountain fell. (I know, ElfQuest nerd!)</p><p>I agree there is not much risk in the overland zones. For my Fury the only outdoor places that made me wary were The Feerot and the Skyfire mountains.</p>

[Calris]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soulforged_Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cracklepop wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, I'll agree that fae and arasai should be allowed to float or glide.   They have wings.But why does my Dark Elf Brigand get safefall AND float?   I assume the safefall is for the scout class, but why do dark elves float?</blockquote>All scouts get safe fall, no matter what race.As for dark elves and float, you should try reading a fantasy story with Drow (Dark elves) in it sometimes, float/hover is a general innate ability to Dark elves, not just in EQ2.</blockquote>No, it's not.There has been no fiction or fantasy book that ever gave Drow </blockquote>...dark elves =/= Drow.

[Qandor]

<p>It will not happen no matter how much we may wish the game to have an element of fear to it. Frankly, EQ2 never had that so nothing has been really lost. With the trend now apparent in modern MMO's it will be nothing but down hill from here. Seems modern gamers for the most part want to win, win, win and never lose. I still feel that if you can never lose, you can never truly win either. </p><p>You see it all the time now. LFM for a quick run though "name whatever instance you like". There is no danger there. No sense of adventure. Just an arcade setting of stand them up, mow them down and grab the loot. Very close to the appeal that Duck Hunt brought to gaming. Just do not see how people find this entertaining.</p>

[Calris]

<cite>Qandor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It will not happen no matter how much we may wish the game to have an element of fear to it. Frankly, EQ2 never had that so nothing has been really lost. With the trend now apparent in modern MMO's it will be nothing but down hill from here. Seems modern gamers for the most part want to win, win, win and never lose. I still feel that if you can never lose, you can never truly win either.</p></blockquote>Oh, put a sock in it.The issue is that people want a game where the average gamer can play without pulling his hair out in frustration. There's hard content in there, yes, but the entire game shouldn't be reserved for only the elite.Just irks me to see the elitists whining with snide, patronizing remarks because the game is becoming more accessible to the average players.

[Yimway]

I find myself agreeing with the principle of the OP's post, but not the particular items he feels would add difficulty.I rolled a new alt this weekend for gits and shiggles.  I leveled 1 - 27 on a sarnak inquisitor so far, and I've not died to an encounter yet.  I believe my only 2 deaths were from falling while looking over cliffs to find which direction the path down was.  I'm plowing thru all the quests and content without using even a half of my abilities.  I teamed up with a wizard last night and an inquis+wiz duo was taking out even to yellow con heroic giants with not the slightest element of danger.  This seems horribly broken to me.If solo content has been nerfed this much, I see how people get to 80 and complain about the instances being too tough now.  If things continue as they have the first 27 levels, I'll get to max level and barely understand how to properly play my toon.Even con heroics should be a significant challenge for a properly ballanced duo, they should have left the 2 of us as a grease spot.Nothing I've done so far on this character has been remotely challenging, or really even tested me in the slightest on my ability to play the class.  Until I tried ^^^'s last night, I have had little reason to even cast a heal as a healer class.So, I agree, the game has been over nerfed, to the point that getting to max level is so trivial, you do so without having to learn how to excell at your classes role.  I feel this is very detrimental to the game, and especially detrimental to the loyal community as we're dealing with new recruits who simply have no clue how the game mechanics actually work.

[Gilasil]

<p>I would like to see a little more danger, but adding danger needs to be thought out.  Just putting heroics all over the place does not in my mind count as "thought out."  They can add danger and still keep the game soloable.</p><p>EQ1 had a good way to go about it in Commonlands (I think it was West) and Karana (East I think) where there were roaming giants and griffons (griffins in Commons) 20 or so levels higher then everything else.  Same n North Ro as I recall (giants anyway).   They kept you on your toes.  Don't make them so common that you can't move about, but make them common enough that you have to keep an eye out.  Don't let them get too close to the newbie areas -- people need some time to get used to playing the game.</p><p>Perhaps make the roaming mobs level 80^^^ or so so even the elite have to watch out.  Don't put loot on them.  They're there to add spice, not to be farmed.</p><p>Crossing the continent (or what used to be a continent before bozo designers chopped it up) should be EXCITING!  Nowadays it's just a bore and not even much of that with griffons everywhere.  At least you have to work a bit to use the griffons in TS and NEK.</p><p>Safe fall is a bit much.  I didn't realize everyone didn't have it.  Perhaps to keep things equal make falling damage based on percentage of your total hitpoints (taking buffs into account, not taking damage into account).  So tanks and squishies all fear falling equally.</p><p>I agree that fae shojuld continue to be allowed to float.  It's a racial ability and they have wings after all.  Other races get other racial abilities.  This would make floating a bit more disireable compared to other abilities so something should be done about that -- we don't want a world full of nothing but fae.  My Iksar can breathe underwater which I find utterly cool, but I guess it's no big deal since there's so many spells and items which accomplish the same thing.  Something similar could be done for falling too I guess -- have some featherfall spells and items.</p><p>And in case there's not enough controversy (lol) here's a thought.  Perhaps they should make it so you can't swim as easily in plate armor as well as you can in cloth with chain in between.  It would definately add realism and danger (at least to tank classes).</p><p>I see no reason to add access quests.  They were just a chore.  The idea is to spice up the game, not add mindless chores.</p>

[Razlath]

<cite>Jablambo@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Besides, the lower levels go by so quick, whats the point in making it harder? and cause new players to have to struggle through the lower levels where groups and help are at an all time low.</blockquote><p>Actually the point of making it harder would be that the levels might not go by so quick.  If the developers just want to pole vault everyone to 20, 30, 40, whatever the current pole vault level is, why not just start them at that level?  There are 80 levels in this game, every single one of them should be important, action packed, and adventure worthy.  If they were I think you would see a lot more people playing the game at early levels.</p><p>I don't believe everyone who played EQ1 hated it with a passion and only played it because it was "the only choice" as many like to state.  There were always people grouping at all levels of that game, there was never a shortage of new players learning the ropes and joining groups.  Sure the later levels took longer than the early levels, but I never felt like any of my levels were pointless in EQ1.  In EQ2 it seems like everything has been geared to make every level unimportant except for 70 through 80.  Kind of makes you wonder why you don't just start at 70.  ;}</p><p>EQ2 is a great game, but it needs challenge brought back into it again.  Levels 70 to 80 are beautifully done as far as solo mob difficulty and rewards.  The heroic side could use a bit of a tweak in the terms of rewards, but I think difficulty is really good there as well.  Whatever formula you used to design those mobs / rewards should be back pasted across the entire game (after heroic rewards are adjusted).  Then the game would be challenging and rewarding for all of its levels instead of just the last 10.  I would bet you would see more people sticking around too.</p>

[Zehl_Ice-Fire]

I forgot about fizzles!!! I used to fizzle eating and drinking. /hangs head low. I spilled.

[Razlath]

<cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And in case there's not enough controversy (lol) here's a thought.  Perhaps they should make it so you can't swim as easily in plate armor as well as you can in cloth with chain in between.  It would definately add realism and danger (at least to tank classes).</p></blockquote><p>LOL it would be awesome if the plate weareres just sank to the bottom and walked along.  Of course without water breathing that might be a pain, but as you pointed out earlier, WB is very easy to get.  ;}</p><p>Or you could just make it a constant downward pull based on the armor type (even cloth should have a pull, robes soaked with water are NOT conducive to swimming).  Would be interesting, and as just a downward pull you could counteract it by swimming up more often, you would just move a little slower than those that could swim straight.</p>

[azekah]

PvP

[Spyderbite]

<cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote>PvP</blockquote>Ditto.. turn on the PvP ruleset on all the PvE servers and I guarantee there will be 1000 new threads within an hour begging for the easy button back. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Kage8]

This is never ganna happen. To the people that want everything to be harder, deal with it or leave the game.Sony is not in this to make 1 or 2 people that want a tough challenge happy. They are in this TO MAKE MONEY!You people that want everything so hard are in the minority. And your out numbered by alot.And im really sorry you are so bored you gatta make posts like these. I really am. But WoW has done this to MMO's and its here to stay, get used to it.Also im not for or against this idea. I been playing EQ since about 1997ish, its been a while lol. So i know a real challenge. But at the same time im having alot of fun in EQ2 atm. I dont mind difficulty but i also wanna relax and have fun in the games i play and if its too hard then you dont even feel like playing. Does forcing noobs to run through NF with heroic stuff killing them every 2 seconds, wasting there time, [Removed for Content] them off and having them leave the game really mean anything to you? Does that effect your game play?Well weather you think it does or not dosent mean anything cause the game aint ganna get any harder.

[Razlath]

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote>PvP</blockquote>Ditto.. turn on the PvP ruleset on all the PvE servers and I guarantee there will be 1000 new threads within an hour begging for the easy button back. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Oh please, PvP isn't all that difficult.  It is all about getting peeps together to gank peeps who don't have friends with them.  For the most part you win PvP at the character create screen.  I played PvP for a bit, and found the game was absolutely no more difficult, only more annoying and distracting.  I won some PvP I lost some PvP, I got jumped while fighting mobs, I forgot to pay attention and got jumped while walking around.  I grouped, I soloed.  I chased Qs all over TD, and got chased all over BB by Qs (techincally I think they were Ks, but everyone still called them Qs).  I stopped at the end of BB when I realized PvP was bringing absolutely nothing to the game that I cared about.  It was not a silver bullet for game difficulty in any way shape or form.</p><p>I think it is great that EQ2 has PvP servers for those who want what it brings.  But lets not pretend that the game is any more difficult under that ruleset.  Lets also not pretend that the ruleset is some golden halo solution to the games easy factor.</p>

[Razlath]

<cite>Kage848 wrote:</cite><blockquote>You people that want everything so hard are in the minority. And your out numbered by alot.</blockquote><p>I think you are very wrong here.  Judging by the comments I have seen in chat, and the sheer number of make the game harder posts I have seen recently I think the split is a lot more even than you might be willing to admit.</p><p>The cool thing EQ2 has been trying over and over to find a formula that allows for both.  Look at the expansions and you can see the pattern.  They are trying to build a game that allows for all play styles equally.  They haven't gotten there yet, but every expansion brings them closer.  As soon as they realize a way to effectively express that solo doesn't equal easy and time doesn't equal challenge they will be even closer.</p><p>Solo players and casual players can have just as much fun playing a game and enjoy just as much challenge as group players and hardcore players.  Some people solo hardcore and some people group casually.  It is the blurring of the lines in the sand that has made SoEs job so difficult.</p>

[Nef]

The other thing to bear in mind is, any game is easy (easier) when you are on your Xth alt (even 2nd or 3rd char makes a huge difference compared to someone who has never stepped into the game before.)They could have all zones full of roaming heroics, or epics, and tons of group quests, but, if you have done that zone twice or more, you will know where they are, how to avoid them, the minimum needed for each group quest etc, then suddenly it all becomes a lot easier.Not saying that EQ2 is super scary run away and hide hard, but neither is it the other end of the scale either.

[LordPazuzu]

<p>Make the game dangerous<i> again</i>?</p><p>I've played this game since launch and I hate to break it to you; it was never dangerous.  There was no real penalty for failure, even then.  Soulshards and exp debt were a half-[Removed for Content] death penalty.   Unless a game is going to implement a real death penalty with some real sting to it, they just shouldn't bother with a death penalty at all.  EQ1 and the current EQ2 have the right of it- there is one way or the other.  In the middle just lies half-[Removed for Content] tedium.</p><p>Zones like the old Nektulos Forest were never what I'd call dangerous places.  Placing aggro every 3 steps does not equate to danger, it just gets tedious after awhile and you feel like your absolutely trudging your way through the zone at one quarter impulse speed.</p><p>Alot of the old EQ1 zones were dangerous to trek across alone.  One false move and you were toast and couldn't get your corpse and depending on your level, could have possibly lost several days worth of xp.  In Nek forest, there was no false move.  You were gonna get aggro regardless and even if you did you'd either easily win the fight or die and respawn with all your stuff intact, some half-[Removed for Content] debt, and a temporary debuff. The debuff even went away on its own even you just camped for a few days and didn't log in. /yawn</p><p>My friend, EQ2 was never,<i> ever</i> a dangerous place to adventure.</p>

[azekah]

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Oh please, PvP isn't all that difficult.  It is all about getting peeps together to gank peeps who don't have friends with them.  For the most part you win PvP at the character create screen.  I played PvP for a bit, and found the game was absolutely no more difficult, only more annoying and distracting.  I won some PvP I lost some PvP, I got jumped while fighting mobs, I forgot to pay attention and got jumped while walking around.  I grouped, I soloed.  I chased Qs all over TD, and got chased all over BB by Qs (techincally I think they were Ks, but everyone still called them Qs).  I stopped at the end of BB when I realized PvP was bringing absolutely nothing to the game that I cared about.  It was not a silver bullet for game difficulty in any way shape or form.</p><p>I think it is great that EQ2 has PvP servers for those who want what it brings.  But lets not pretend that the game is any more difficult under that ruleset.  Lets also not pretend that the ruleset is some golden halo solution to the games easy factor.</p></blockquote>lolzWere talking about danger right? Well being in PvP makes the game more dangerous. It makes everything harder because you have to be aware of your surroundings. You can't just walk around blindly like in a PvE server. Instead of decided when and where to engage mobs, in PvP you can be engaged at any time. Not to mention your fighting actual brains, rather than scripts. If thats not more "dangerous" idk what is.

[sliderhouserules]

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kage848 wrote:</cite><blockquote>You people that want everything so hard are in the minority. And your out numbered by alot.</blockquote><p>I think you are very wrong here.  Judging by the comments I have seen in chat, and the sheer number of make the game harder posts I have seen recently I think the split is a lot more even than you might be willing to admit.</p><p>The cool thing EQ2 has been trying over and over to find a formula that allows for both.  Look at the expansions and you can see the pattern.  They are trying to build a game that allows for all play styles equally.  They haven't gotten there yet, but every expansion brings them closer.  As soon as they realize a way to effectively express that solo doesn't equal easy and time doesn't equal challenge they will be even closer.</p><p>Solo players and casual players can have just as much fun playing a game and enjoy just as much challenge as group players and hardcore players.  Some people solo hardcore and some people group casually.  It is the blurring of the lines in the sand that has made SoEs job so difficult.</p></blockquote>Good post. I agree they are getting things closer and closer, but I think one of the pieces missing is small group content (ergo the large thread here in this forum about that trio on Test). The RoK solo quest grind is a bit much. It would have been cooler if quite a few of those quest lines ended in something that required a few friends' help. And something I said in the quest feedback thread/poll is that I think there aren't enough quests that lead you into the dungeons. Bosses, and especially mini-bosses (killable by small groups, see?), in the dungeons have huge potential for story lines, yet all they are currently is loot-pinatas, nothing more.

[Razlath]

<cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Oh please, PvP isn't all that difficult.  It is all about getting peeps together to gank peeps who don't have friends with them.  For the most part you win PvP at the character create screen.  I played PvP for a bit, and found the game was absolutely no more difficult, only more annoying and distracting.  I won some PvP I lost some PvP, I got jumped while fighting mobs, I forgot to pay attention and got jumped while walking around.  I grouped, I soloed.  I chased Qs all over TD, and got chased all over BB by Qs (techincally I think they were Ks, but everyone still called them Qs).  I stopped at the end of BB when I realized PvP was bringing absolutely nothing to the game that I cared about.  It was not a silver bullet for game difficulty in any way shape or form.</p><p>I think it is great that EQ2 has PvP servers for those who want what it brings.  But lets not pretend that the game is any more difficult under that ruleset.  Lets also not pretend that the ruleset is some golden halo solution to the games easy factor.</p></blockquote>lolzWere talking about danger right? Well being in PvP makes the game more dangerous. It makes everything harder because you have to be aware of your surroundings. You can't just walk around blindly like in a PvE server. Instead of decided when and where to engage mobs, in PvP you can be engaged at any time. Not to mention your fighting actual brains, rather than scripts. If thats not more "dangerous" idk what is.</blockquote><p>It isn't danger it is variety.  If you think people don't have scripts you are crazy.  The vast majority do.  The ones who don't seem to just have a few more scripts.  If you want to know what those scripts are read the boards.  Every class board will tell you the "best" way to play your class.  The "best" way to spec it.  Knowing that you now know what 90% of the people playing htat class will do.  Every now and then one surprises you, but for the most part people are just as preprogrammed as the mobs.</p><p>And no I don't consider waiting for people to randomly jump me while I am fighting other mobs to be more dangerous.  I also don't consider poking a mob I can't possibly win dangerous either.  Danger is all about there not being a foregone conclusion from the start of combat no matter what you do.  I can play at the top of my game and the group of even con PvPers are still going to kill me solo.  I can play at the top of my game and the orange con heroic will eat me every time.  I can play at the bottom of my game on PvP and as long as I have properly level locked, grouped, and / or outleveled whatever zone I am hunting in I will win.  I can play at the bottom of my game and still beat the snot out of the green con solo mob.</p><p>The difficulty and challenge between PvE and PvP doesn't change just the target does.  It is the primary reason I left the PvP servers.  I didn't find this elusive difficulty and challenge I thought I would.  For the most part what I found was a bunch of level locked lemming mobs who all followed pretty much the same script.  Every now and then I found someone truly impressive who didn't use the "approved" strat of their class.  Those battles were fun, but for the most part playing on the PvP server was liking playing with the Roekilik event constantly up on a normal server.</p><p>Just to be cleaer, I don't have anything against PvP.  I enjoyed my time on Venekor while I was there, and don't regret a second of it.  But my experience there was no more dangerous, interesting or challenging than my stay on any other server.</p>

[Razlath]

<cite>sliderhouserules wrote:</cite><blockquote>Good post. I agree they are getting things closer and closer, but I think one of the pieces missing is small group content (ergo the large thread here in this forum about that trio on Test). The RoK solo quest grind is a bit much. <b>It would have been cooler if quite a few of those quest lines ended in something that required a few friends' help.</b> And something I said in the quest feedback thread/poll is that I think there aren't enough quests that lead you into the dungeons. Bosses, and especially mini-bosses (killable by small groups, see?), in the dungeons have huge potential for story lines, yet all they are currently is loot-pinatas, nothing more.</blockquote><p>Well at the risk of disagreeing with someone who complimented me, I do have a minor disagreement with the bolded point.</p><p>This should never ever happen again.  RoK did a very good job of dividing out the quest lines between solo and heroic.  Mixing the two causes problems on both ends of the spectrum.  The soloer doesn't want to get all the way to the end of a quest only to find out that they can't complete it, and the heroic progression people won't open up the quest cuz who wants to 6 man solo quests?</p><p>Instead what we should have had was some nice double up areas with a few quests specifcially for those areas not tied to other quests.  If possible a whole progression along those lines would have been nice.  Then you could have pounded out solo quests while you wait for buddies to log in, hit up the small heroic quests when a couple of the buddies made it, and hit the heroic instances / dungeons when a full group was available.  Of course ideally all 3 of these progressions would have had enough content to pull them all from 70 to 80.</p><p>I do agree with the quests leading you into dungeons bit whole heatedly.  I don't think every instance should have a story reason to go through it.  A quest progressing you to and through each instance would be awesome.  Even more so if it were repeatable.  I play these games for equal part character advancement and story.  When I can get both at the same time I am very excited, and I don't think they are mutually exclusive at all.</p>

[sliderhouserules]

I think our disagreement comes down to preference. And it would be mitigated to large degree by having a suitable reward at the end of the soloable portion of any quest line.I like your ideas of separated lines too, I just happen to like quests (or quest lines) that you can solo part of but then need to get help to finish. I'm not talking about rounding up a full group to tackle -- just a small group, get some backup, etc. Death to S'neuchi is a good example. The Thuuga line was a lot of fun. Grinding out solo quest lines ad naseum with no progression or escalation in difficulty is just oh-so-boring for me.

[DragonMaster2385]

Changes to Nek:I liked it.  It wasn't fair for the good people to be able to get around TS easily and evil characters to die over and over again because of the bad level design.  This caused an imballance of good and evil classes.Removal of the Spirit Shard:Hated it.  Death means nothing now.  They should have removed the spirit shard for players lower than 30.  By the time you are 30, you pretty much get the hang of things and can take a little more beating.Tradeskill - removal of subcombines:I liked it.  Tradeskilling was way too complicated for some of the professions.Changes to falling damage:Hated it.  Now it isn't a % of health, so lower players can die easier than higher ones.  I agree that you shouldn't be able to jump off of everything without fear.  It changed at EoF launch, so I think the land layout of those zones inspired the changes. 

[Razlath]

<cite>sliderhouserules wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think our disagreement comes down to preference. And it would be mitigated to large degree by having a suitable reward at the end of the soloable portion of any quest line.I like your ideas of separated lines too, I just happen to like quests (or quest lines) that you can solo part of but then need to get help to finish. I'm not talking about rounding up a full group to tackle -- just a small group, get some backup, etc. Death to S'neuchi is a good example. The Thuuga line was a lot of fun. Grinding out solo quest lines ad naseum with no progression or escalation in difficulty is just oh-so-boring for me.</blockquote><p>Yeah, trust me I understand and deep down actually agree.  It is just so hard to organize groups for that kind of stuff.  You start getting peeps together and all they want to do is hit instances or what have you.  Or you are turning people away because hitting the same mob with 6 people would make it boringly easy.  Or you try to get people caught up to that point and you are pounding on solo mobs with 3 or 4 peeps (boring!).  Seems easier to just keep lines seperate so that an entire line is completable by the same group from beginning to end (even if that group is a group of one).</p><p>I remember doing the quests in BBM that have you investigating the Krukiels.  Starts off easy enough, solo quests, no problem.  Then it progresses to running around areas filled with half heroics, ok, no prob as long as you can invis.  Then you have to wack some of those half heroics.  At that point I couldn't follow the quest any longer because I couldn't find anyone who wanted to group up due to not being on the same step (and not wanting to do solo content to get to the same step), or just not wanting to group for anything but a dungeon.  Eventually I just outleveled the quest (in the dungeons.  ;}&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and came back later.  Seems to be the norm from my experience.</p>

[Yimway]

<cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Changes to falling damage:Hated it.  Now it isn't a % of health, so lower players can die easier than higher ones.  I agree that you shouldn't be able to jump off of everything without fear.  It changed at EoF launch, so I think the land layout of those zones inspired the changes.  </blockquote>Not sure where you are getting this, but it is still %of health that is only mitigated by safefall skill or racial bonuses.I know as my human defiler and human guard fall the same distance and get hit for same %'s and the guard has nearly double the hp.  More HP does not allow me to fall farther.

[azekah]

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>  I enjoyed my time on Venekor...</p></blockquote>Oh I get it now...

[Razlath]

<cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>  I enjoyed my time on Venekor...</p></blockquote>Oh I get it now...</blockquote>Did I choose a bad PvP server?

[DragonMaster2385]

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Changes to falling damage:Hated it.  Now it isn't a % of health, so lower players can die easier than higher ones.  I agree that you shouldn't be able to jump off of everything without fear.  It changed at EoF launch, so I think the land layout of those zones inspired the changes.  </blockquote>Not sure where you are getting this, but it is still %of health that is only mitigated by safefall skill or racial bonuses.I know as my human defiler and human guard fall the same distance and get hit for same %'s and the guard has nearly double the hp.  More HP does not allow me to fall farther.</blockquote>I remember that's how it was when they announced the change, so maybe the changed it since then.  However, when dropping to the OK raid zone in Chardok, mages always have a harder time surving the fall than other classes, so I'm not so sure.

[Zmobie]

<cite>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Qandor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It will not happen no matter how much we may wish the game to have an element of fear to it. Frankly, EQ2 never had that so nothing has been really lost. With the trend now apparent in modern MMO's it will be nothing but down hill from here. Seems modern gamers for the most part want to win, win, win and never lose. I still feel that if you can never lose, you can never truly win either.</p></blockquote>Oh, put a sock in it.The issue is that people want a game where the average gamer can play without pulling his hair out in frustration. There's hard content in there, yes, but the entire game shouldn't be reserved for only the elite.Just irks me to see the elitists whining with snide, patronizing remarks because the game is becoming more accessible to the average players.</blockquote>The problem is, that when you make the whole game "more accessable to the average players", it makes it was to easy for those of us who LIKE  a challenge.Back in the day, this was seemingly handled by having 2 zones of the same tier, one a bit more "accessable" than the other. For instance, Nektulos Forest vs. Thundering Steppes. While both had a good amount of heroic content, much of TS was open and easily navigatable, especially if you were wise enough not to kill any Centaurs. Nek was an exciting and dangerous place, full of aggro mobs (and fish that would chase you to the door), hard to navigate... and generally a lot more fun (and frustrating) to me than TS ever was.Now... I've been playing my quest alt a lot, going through all the T1-T4 zones, and now starting on the T5 ones. Not a single one of them can in any way qualify as challenging.  Rarely do you ever see a heroic mob. Rarely does anything see through invis. As long as the mobs don't con yellow+, you can run right through all of them, train to your hearts content, and never get dropped. Sure, it's more accessable to "the average player". But it's also boring to those of us who enjoy some challenge. And really... it breeds the average player to stay exactly that: average. Never learning how to best play their class. Never figuring out how to avoid aggro. Never learning to fear dying. In short, it allows them to get to the level cap, and basically be useless to a large degree.If you cater to the lowest common denominator, pretty soon, all you have is the low end of the bell-curve.--Tusk

[azekah]

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Did I choose a bad PvP server?</blockquote>The rat who roams this forum will disagree, but most don't consider Venekor as much of a PvP server. I've never played there so I can't attest, but it has a pretty bad reputation from the PvP community. (Just browse the PvP forums <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/47941865eb7bbc2a777305b46cc059a2.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />) Mainly because their population is so low...Nagafen has become the main PvP server where most ppl go who want to "really PvP".I've never used a script before, I'm sure some do, but PvP is not really so cookie cutter as you suppose. Perhaps maybe if you fight all 1vs1's it would be, but grp vs grp PvP is much more dynamic. And if you want to stay alive for long, you better find a secluded place, or stay grped as much as you can.The only time I've really been able to solo for more than 10 mins without running into freeps is when I got to stay in TD2 for a while, or if I can't sleep and play at like 4 am.I played on a blue server for over 2 years and since I've really gave PvP a chance, I can't see how I stayed there so long. To me, it's much more exciting to take on real opponents and to measure my skill/experience/and amount of time I've put into my character against the other person. I don't have any high level mains on Nag either so I can't just send them tons of plats so they can buy all they need. I put in the effort so that I can compete. Neways, makes the whole game make more sense, to me at least.

[Zmobie]

<cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Oh please, PvP isn't all that difficult.  It is all about getting peeps together to gank peeps who don't have friends with them.  For the most part you win PvP at the character create screen.  I played PvP for a bit, and found the game was absolutely no more difficult, only more annoying and distracting.  I won some PvP I lost some PvP, I got jumped while fighting mobs, I forgot to pay attention and got jumped while walking around.  I grouped, I soloed.  I chased Qs all over TD, and got chased all over BB by Qs (techincally I think they were Ks, but everyone still called them Qs).  I stopped at the end of BB when I realized PvP was bringing absolutely nothing to the game that I cared about.  It was not a silver bullet for game difficulty in any way shape or form.</p><p>I think it is great that EQ2 has PvP servers for those who want what it brings.  But lets not pretend that the game is any more difficult under that ruleset.  Lets also not pretend that the ruleset is some golden halo solution to the games easy factor.</p></blockquote>lolzWere talking about danger right? Well being in PvP makes the game more dangerous. It makes everything harder because you have to be aware of your surroundings. You can't just walk around blindly like in a PvE server. Instead of decided when and where to engage mobs, in PvP you can be engaged at any time. Not to mention your fighting actual brains, rather than scripts. If thats not more "dangerous" idk what is.</blockquote>I play on a PVP server. It's just like PVE.  Nothing is "harder", you just have to deal with morons you can't /ignore.If I am solo, any 2+ group that engages me wins, with nothing I can do to stop it. It's happened enough, that I don't even care anymore. I just rev, re-buff, and head back to what I was doing.  No brains to deal with, just a string of red numbers over my head, all my spells greyed out because I am perma-stunned, then the revive screen. --Tusk

[Razlath]

<cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Did I choose a bad PvP server?</blockquote>The rat who roams this forum will disagree, but most don't consider Venekor as much of a PvP server. I've never played there so I can't attest, but it has a pretty bad reputation from the PvP community. (Just browse the PvP forums <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/47941865eb7bbc2a777305b46cc059a2.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />)Nagafen has become the main PvP server where most ppl go who want to "really PvP".I've never used a script before, I'm sure some do, but PvP is not really so cookie cutter as you suppose. Perhaps maybe if you fight all 1vs1's it would be, but grp vs grp PvP is much more dynamic. And if you want to stay alive for long, you better find a secluded place, or stay grped as much as you can.The only time I've really been able to solo for more than 10 mins without running into freeps is when I got to stay in TD2 for a while, or if I can't sleep and play at like 4 am.</blockquote><p>Interesting.  And by scripts I didn't mean real macro scripts.  I meant that each player plays a certain way, and for the most part that way is exactly how those on the forums / chat channels tell them to.  After a bit class X begins to look the same no matter who is piloting it because they all play so similarly which basically makes them a mob with a slightly improved script.</p><p>I might stop back by a PvP server some day, but for now I just don't have the time to truly play on two servers, and Nektulos is my home.  ;}  But all that aside, I still don't consider PvP an adequate answer for challenge.  Even if I was a die hard PvPer I wouldn't consider that.  PvE is an important part of an MMO and should offer challenge and excitement as well.  PvP should offer a different kind of challenge, but both playstyles should be fun and exciting.</p><p>I truly believe the dev team is trying to get there.  There is a pattern to the seemingly random dev direction in each expansion, or at least appears to be.  Whether they are just trying to see what will work for EQ3, or truly trying to find the ellusive balance that all games desire we may never know.  ;}</p>

[azekah]

Now were getting into fundamental ideas :0The fact is, there are a lot of ppl who play and enjoy this game, including me. Could it be better? I'm sure some of you have great ideas to make it better. The problem is, I might completely disagree with you, and if they made a change that suited you, it might make me so frustrated I would quit.Multiplayer games are in a lose-lose situation. If you make a change, you risk alienating your core players. If you don't make changes, you risk not being able to draw in new players.Finding the right balance is extremely difficult, but considering I'm enjoying myself here now, I would say they've done and ok job at it. Some of you might disagree, but that could be simply because you are looking for something else in this game that I am not.Oh wellz, play if you like, quitz if you don't. Or wait for updates and try it out again later <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />

[Zordrak]

I have to agree about treasure chest.  There should be some danger to them, more so at higher levels then lower ones.  I can see the lower chest being a slap o the wrist because almost no one will disarm it (my scout has tried to disarm every chest I came across and, now at 35 skill, still has not disarmed a single one).  I'm not sure they should be one shot kill leather, but should take a large amount of life and/or mana at higher levels, otherwise yes, the disarm skill becomes pretty useless in that regard.The alternative to that is to make lower level chest easier to disarm, and make all of them more deadly.  Though I'd still recommend in that instance at least go a bit easier on the first ten levels as people get used to the game.

[Giral]

<p><span style="color: #0000cc;">Personaly i agree with you about making the Game more difficult/dangerous</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000cc;">But </span></p><p><span style="color: #0000cc;">No they shouldn't make the entire game more difficult . </span></p><p><span style="color: #0000cc;">Eq2 is for all playstyles, and there should be various degrees of difficulty , the reason eq2 has (IMO) lost alot of the long time players was by making the entire game Less dangerous.  (so doing the opposite will just lose them the casual players they have now)</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000cc;">now long time players are coming back and finding the game is even easier then when they left (wether thats percieved or not its in the eye of the beholder) </span></p><p><span style="color: #0000cc;">Rok is a good starting ground, the devs Seem to have finaly realized that there needs to be constant content ahead of the Majority of the playerbase at Endgame.  and i mean this as there are Group instances that plenty of lvl 80 players havent completed all of it yet, and Raiding the Majority has not completed it yet. </span></p><p><span style="color: #0000cc;">the devs also seem to have finaly realized not to listen to the Whines and Cries of " I pay the same amount as XX player" , or " Your in the Minority"  </span></p><p><span style="color: #0000cc;">Content should be designed for people who only have 1 hour 3 days a week, or 3 hours 5 days a week, or 6 hours 7 days a week, and should also be designed for Ultra easy/easy/medium/hard/hardcore/extreme players. s</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000cc;">No reason Eq2 shouldn't cater to ALL playstyles,and also they shouldn't give in to Any of them, if raiders Whine ....To Bad, if Casuals whine to Bad....the devs know they created content for ALL of them so if they dont like what someone else has or how easy/hard it was to aquire to [I cannot control my vocabulary] bad just go and /Rage quit. </span></p><p><span style="color: #0000cc;">Rok's a good start with its Group and Raid develpment, you have easy/medium/difficult zones, and you have easy/medium/hard Names in them .  if there was just More of it all then Rok would be near perfect for the group and raid game.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000cc;">Solo and small group game in ROK needs some more content, some very Very long solo quests(heritage quest in length and quality) that start out easy and get harder and harder the farther you go on the quest line with some quality rewards along the way and a Very nice item at the end, and some instances for 2-4 groupers easy/medium/hard.  and definitly need a couple heritage quests added to rok for the Groupers(could give a small group version with slightly less stats/proc/effects)   <-- add in this and i Personaly think eq2 would be a very well rounded game for solo/small group/group/raiding for casual/medium/hardcore players in ROK , and hopefully future expansions.    </span></p><p><span style="color: #0000cc;">P.S.   a couple of large X-2 raid zones,and more Ae encounters in ALL group zones.... would be on the money </span></p>

[Laiina]

<cite>StormCinder wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Will. Never. Happen.</p><p>The trend is to make the game more "open and inviting" to new players.  New players are confused and frustrated enough at the current "complexity" and "difficulty."</p><p>SC</p></blockquote><p>I see this in all games, and I am starting to wonder if it is really a good idea. Games fostered on the idea of "get the credit you deserve" type advertising (why does anyone "deserve" anything that they have not worked for?) just keep getting fluffier and fluffier in content.</p><p>As someone noted, Nek used to actually be dangerous, now it is a joke - I take my level 10's there just for the disco xp - and I should not be able to do that.</p><p>Not that every zone should be full of KOS mobs, but I think that gradually EQ2 and most other games (with the partial exception of EQ1) have just gotten easier and easier. Perhaps that is why I see level 80's that don't even know how to use sprint.</p><p>Maybe if one game was actually HARD (not just grinding), then perhaps it could build it's repuation on that instead of hand holding.</p><p>But I don't expect that to happen soon - shooting for the lowest common denominator seems to be the trend over the past 20 years or so.</p>

[Odys]

I agree on some points, i could duo runnyeye fully in a duo while I was 37 (monk, warden)  and we only failed on the last bos (big 43 eye) , and we killed it as a 41 duo the fight was tight (we both used or long reuse abilities). We rushed varsoon around 30 in a trio (many monsters were yellows).We were litterly running anwhee looking for named without even being afraid of a triple pull. And i could extend the list to almost an instance.It has some positive aspect, the servers being empty you can actuallydo runny with a teammate. If runny was harder and doable only with at least 5-6 people how people would go there?The solution would be to allow people to choose a difficuty settingin instances but it's not an easy task for the devellopers.I also agree that solo zones are too easy at least for the classes i play. Here again adjusting the difficulty is not easy, while advneturing alone a necro and a bard do nit face the same difficulty at all. Last about traps : I would hate to die because the rogue failedits disarm, one spicy thing would be to have low range on traps and to let the rogue alone pick the lock and risk his life. But would that be fair ? Rogues would die more than others.About gliding : After getting bored with cliff and trees i rerolled as a fae and i love my gliding ability. I think that the possibility to get safe fall or almos safe fall with many race/class/items combinaison is nice.

[Devout Disciple]

<cite>Cracklepop wrote:</cite><blockquote>That says it all right there.  I'm not talking about instances, that's on a case by case basis. I'm talking about failed disarmed chests that explode and that can seriously injure or kill you, not just give you a little scratch.  Why bother even having a disarm skill?  What happened to the fizzling spells?Failed tradeskill counter spells that cause real damage.   The forge used to be a real killer.  Make it so again.  Now, if I fail, I might lose 5 points of health, if any at all.     Along this line is the jump down from the top of Freeport TS to the bottom floor.   Nary a scratch, and without any kind of safefall.    Safefall in general is too pillowy soft.  Just about every class gets it or glide or float or some kind of fall nerf.  You should be afraid to jump.  Your safefall should be how many HPs you have.  (This is the usual safefall method for tanks.  heh)  Speaking of fear...   Make the zones really dangerous again.  Remember when Nek Forest was dreaded by all making their way to the dock?  Agro everywhere.  Even the paths weren't safe.   Bring back the tons of killing involved in betraying.   Having to group up to kill some nameds is a lot more fun that just having to switch out a few clipboards (for Freeport --> Qeynos).   Betraying should take more than just one afternoon to complete.  I know,  they made all these changes because ppl were whining about having a real challenge in the game.  Now it's just grinding.  Long, slow, tedious grinding.  Where is the adventure?  Where is the challenge?/hidesoapbox</blockquote><p>I keep reading this and all I can come up with is this sounds more like a horror MMO mixed in with a min-maxer than a game with the letters Role Playing Game at the end.  Would that be a good change for the game?  It's the fear part that keeps throwing me off.  Scared in a fantasy based role playing game?</p><p>By the way I'll take the old days back in a heart beat even though the annoying shards and anti-group debt sharing was in there.  </p><p>Had avoidance around the ballpark of 25% higher on my crusader with handcrafted gear on, (have 77 mastercrafted on currently so don't try to get me on that) could cast a pull spell on the fly, (we have ranged now but still) and could cast my wards alot quicker too.  I wasn't wacked to death because I wasn't facing forward to the mob either.  My horse wasn't nerfed when in combat either.  </p><p>If anything the old days were easier. Pfft.</p><p>Also Nek is a bad example. For when I started a Necro along with my bro in the EoF timeline I died plenty of times in there still.  I don't know where you frequented in the zone but I was in the thick of it with bears/skellies and not around the zone lines or roads.</p>

[Giral]

<cite>Devout Disciple wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cracklepop wrote:</cite><blockquote>That says it all right there.  I'm not talking about instances, that's on a case by case basis. I'm talking about failed disarmed chests that explode and that can seriously injure or kill you, not just give you a little scratch.  Why bother even having a disarm skill?  What happened to the fizzling spells?Failed tradeskill counter spells that cause real damage.   The forge used to be a real killer.  Make it so again.  Now, if I fail, I might lose 5 points of health, if any at all.     Along this line is the jump down from the top of Freeport TS to the bottom floor.   Nary a scratch, and without any kind of safefall.    Safefall in general is too pillowy soft.  Just about every class gets it or glide or float or some kind of fall nerf.  You should be afraid to jump.  Your safefall should be how many HPs you have.  (This is the usual safefall method for tanks.  heh)  Speaking of fear...   Make the zones really dangerous again.  Remember when Nek Forest was dreaded by all making their way to the dock?  Agro everywhere.  Even the paths weren't safe.   Bring back the tons of killing involved in betraying.   Having to group up to kill some nameds is a lot more fun that just having to switch out a few clipboards (for Freeport --> Qeynos).   Betraying should take more than just one afternoon to complete.  I know,  they made all these changes because ppl were whining about having a real challenge in the game.  Now it's just grinding.  Long, slow, tedious grinding.  Where is the adventure?  Where is the challenge?/hidesoapbox</blockquote><p>I keep reading this and all I can come up with is this sounds more like a horror MMO mixed in with a min-maxer than a game with the letters Role Playing Game at the end.  Would that be a good change for the game?  It's the fear part that keeps throwing me off.  Scared in a fantasy based role playing game?</p><p>By the way I'll take the old days back in a heart beat even though the annoying shards and anti-group debt sharing was in there.  </p><p>Had avoidance around the ballpark of 25% higher on my crusader with handcrafted gear on, (have 77 mastercrafted on currently so don't try to get me on that) could cast a pull spell on the fly, (we have ranged now but still) and could cast my wards alot quicker too.  I wasn't wacked to death because I wasn't facing forward to the mob either.  My horse wasn't nerfed when in combat either.  </p><p>If anything the old days were easier. Pfft.</p><p>Also Nek is a bad example. For when I started a Necro along with my bro in the EoF timeline I died plenty of times in there still.  I don't know where you frequented in the zone but I was in the thick of it with bears/skellies and not around the zone lines or roads.</p></blockquote><p>personaly i feel that the Cities,the housing,the bars,etc, and what people chose to do in and around those places is all for Roleplay, Yes Roleplaying is also done in dungeons but isnt the Outside realm suppose to be Thick with Danger at near every turn ?   Isn't the Roleplay aspect of Adventuring that your out and about in a dangerous realm filled with monsters and dragons and demons ? arent YOU as an adventurerer ever suppose to feel Fear  and dread?    </p><p>to me once you step out of the Safety of a City or Outpost is when you have chosen to leave the safety net and venture into the Real world ,  If your Roleplaying that your Gumshoe the Gnome Scout and you happen into a deep dank cave on your adventure, and you sudenly have a mosnter with 10 eyes and claws larger then your body pop out a hole in the ceiling on you you wouldnt be the least bit frieghtened ? and say after you overcame your initial fear and were able to vanguish said monster, and it dropped a Mysterious chest , couldnt it also be roleplayed that the creature was inteligent and had armed the chest with a boobie trap ? </p><p>now i dont agree with the BLAM your dead boobie traps, but there are other Ailments they could impliment, a chest could posion your group for 15 minutes that slightly decreased your posion resists and it Just so happens that 90 % of the mobs in that zone use poison ,  or it could place a Disease Dot on you that ticks away for 5 minutes ,its not a Large dot but enough to drop your health down by 2 % every few seconds and in a very close battle could spell death </p><p>there is also the Fun side of it where they could put Silly traps on the chest, like your group all has Baloon bodies until you take 100 steps(or a fae onehundred wing flutters <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  ) . or one that turns your whole group into Large Ants . or one that makes each person in the group speak a diffrent language ( and would help if you Learned all the languages and give a reason for all the various languges in the game lol )      There are alot of ways they can do things for both ends, so sometimes its Bad and sometimes its Good but its all part of the Adventure </p><p>etc,, etc,,, i do understand that you dont want the whole game to be doom and gloom and horror MMO , and i agree that Roleplaying should have its place's , I just dont agree that once you set out on a Dangerous Quest/Journey that it should be all Rainbows and Pixxie Dust.... the meat and potatoes of the game is Still Combat and why we have indepth mechanics and a Ton of skills to use in combat against Fearsome Foes , and Malignent hordes from the very depth of the 9 hells </p><p>i dont know but to me personaly to stroll around in creepy forests and not be afraid and to go down into horrid caves with just a torch to light the way should certainly have danger written all over it and should ADD to the roleplay aspect of making the realm seem More alive and dangerous ,  if you have to roleplay Even that aspect and the creatures are just weak banta fodder that is only there for you to hit the WIN button and collect your loot with No fear/danger then truely it would be a dismaly boring game </p><p>Tradeskilling ? lol ill leave that for others to discuss : ) not my cup of Barbarian Brandy /wink  </p><p>P.S. there should be some zones in the game that Everyone is afraid to go into : ) have it scale to your level and have Corpses in that zone, have Extreme loss of exp,extreme Debt,Armor damage ,cant use Repair kits , even have level loss in there . i know id go /MWahahahahahahaaaaa .... pleanty of Easy zones in the game ,,but there isnt ONE single group zone that is in any way Dangerous and IMO the game is much shallower for it, if i want to go risk it all i should have places to do it, they have easy zones so people can farm away in ..its only fair : ) </p>

[Kage8]

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kage848 wrote:</cite><blockquote>You people that want everything so hard are in the minority. And your out numbered by alot.</blockquote><p>I think you are very wrong here.  Judging by the comments I have seen in chat, and the sheer number of make the game harder posts I have seen recently I think the split is a lot more even than you might be willing to admit.</p><p>The cool thing EQ2 has been trying over and over to find a formula that allows for both.  Look at the expansions and you can see the pattern.  They are trying to build a game that allows for all play styles equally.  They haven't gotten there yet, but every expansion brings them closer.  As soon as they realize a way to effectively express that solo doesn't equal easy and time doesn't equal challenge they will be even closer.</p><p>Solo players and casual players can have just as much fun playing a game and enjoy just as much challenge as group players and hardcore players.  Some people solo hardcore and some people group casually.  It is the blurring of the lines in the sand that has made SoEs job so difficult.</p></blockquote><p>The smallest % of people post on the forums. And people arent ganna talk in chat about how they like easy content because they will get laughed at and flamed.</p><p>WoW is the biggest MMO ever and its like that, partially, because its easy to get into. New people to the game dont wanna deal with the BS of dieing over and over when they first join a game. Its just not fun.</p>

[Poetelia]

<cite>Blacktusk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you cater to the lowest common denominator, pretty soon, all you have is the low end of the bell-curve.</blockquote><p>Maybe. But players often forget a simple fact: its the lowest common denominator the one that pays the bills. SOE devs cant have that forgetful luxury.</p><p>EQ1 times are over, where 90% of the subscriptions paid for the fun of the 10% elite.</p><p>Im not against an elite game, a self-supported elite game. But if you have to share to maintain the game, it is expected that you compromise, if not with the so-called lowest denominator, at least with the average player on top of the mentioned Gauss curve.</p>

[Spender]

<p>Everquest II is way to easy and gets boring fast because of it.  You do not ever need to group or acknowledge anyone in the game as you can do most everything on your own.  This kills the community and a lot of the need to reach out and create relationships.  It is surprising given the success of the original Everquest, that this game, which shares its name, has failed to acknowledge many of the successful systems from the original.</p><p>Classes should have strengths and weaknesses and should have to rely on others.  Classes do not need to be "balanced or fair".  Classes should perform as advertised during the creation process.  You pick a warrior, that is great, you can take melee damage well, but don't go onto the forums and complain that you cannot deal a lot of damage or heal yourself and that you want to have these abilities in future updates.  If you pick a cleric, you can heal and cure, but don't expect that you will be able to be the top damage dealer on the server.</p><p>Leveling should be slowed down so that players have a lot of time to enjoy the skills and abilities of the level.  Create a long term story arc and plan of advancement that stretches at least a decade.  Do not make each 'tier' a repeat of the prior.  Linear and scaled leveling are boring and show a lack of creativity on the part of the developer. </p><p>Allow for greater use of tactics in fights so that creative and skilled players are rewarded for their efforts.  Everquest had a lot of this built into their system, such as the ability to split mobs, train to zoneline to grab a named, dragging corpses for rezzes, factions that mattered, ect...  Everquest II's combat system that 'locks' you into the encounter is extremely restrictive and does not allow for creative thinking.</p><p>Make mistakes and poor planning sting.  As it stands now, there are almost no penalties in this game.  I do not see a lot of excitement in the chat channels, because there is very little risk present in the game.  So when you complete something, it just feels routine and is nothing to feel excited about.</p><p>Allow for scarcity.  Everquest II rares are uncommon at best.  Instead of having rares drop 2%-3% of the time, how about introducing several more layers to the economy that have resources or drops that are extremely rare or require a lot of planning to create or obtain.</p><p>Just my thoughts, but I have always believed that what made the original Everquest great, was not that it was an easy game, but it was a game that people LOVED to play, even while complaining about how hard and unforgiving it was.  It is human nature to complain, however, the sense of success you feel from advancing in a difficult environment far outweigh any of the setbacks that you may encounter along the way.  </p>

[Poetelia]

<cite>Spender wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Just my thoughts, but I have always believed that what made the original Everquest great, was not that it was an easy game, but it was a game that people LOVED to play, even while complaining about how hard and unforgiving it was.  It is human nature to complain, however, the sense of success you feel from advancing in a difficult environment far outweigh any of the setbacks that you may encounter along the way.  </p></blockquote><p>Everquest had its own time Spencer. And it was a big success in part because it was original with many new game concepts, but also because it lacked any REAL competitors for a long time. Even so, a lot of people, myself included, left the game after 4-5 years of playing because it was just an ordeal to do anything slightly meaningful every time you logged in. The corpse-runs, the imbalances, the long camps (who hasnt camped Ancient Cyclops for days?), the hell-levels, the downtime between pulls medding and the raid fests are things of the past.</p><p>I myself put up to all these things for a long time. But I wouldnt dream to come back to them. Its part of my gaming life and I had some great times, but, sorry, its over.</p><p>But I agree we all are different people with different tastes. And what can be boring for me can be very exciting for you, and the other way around. Thats why there should be different games. In fact EQ1 is still there. And open.</p><p>And a game company should have the average guy in its thoughts when it designs a succesful game. After all its a game, not a job.</p>

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Todra_B wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I do like the floatie races. I have a arasai assassin that is a lot of fun. My Main Dwarf Fury is a cannonball. He died a few times in his first trips in Greater Faydark.</p><p>Mr Wolfie... Remember in ElfQuest Rayek of the Sunfolk learned to levitate and fly after much learning and effort, he was clumsy compared to the Blue Mountain Elves until he used their power after Blue Mountain fell. (I know, ElfQuest nerd!)</p><p>I agree there is not much risk in the overland zones. For my Fury the only outdoor places that made me wary were The Feerot and the Skyfire mountains.</p></blockquote>Me too. I have a fae warden, a fae dirge and an arasai wizard. They're great fun.I have to disagree about the risk though, in that: there's never been much risk (for the careful/knowledgable player). Very early on, my gf ran a level 4 character from Qeynos to Freeport - I can't remember why she did this... but she had nodifficulty and no deaths, but then collectively we do have good kills vs.deaths ratios on our server (a stat often ignored by the people who say this game is too easy).

[Ranja]

<cite>Cracklepop wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, I'll agree that fae and arasai should be allowed to float or glide.   They have wings.But why does my Dark Elf Brigand get safefall AND float?   I assume the safefall is for the scout class, but why do dark elves float?</blockquote>Because Aerlick plays a DE and he gave them the best racial traits in the game hands down

[Yimway]

<cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cracklepop wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, I'll agree that fae and arasai should be allowed to float or glide.   They have wings.But why does my Dark Elf Brigand get safefall AND float?   I assume the safefall is for the scout class, but why do dark elves float?</blockquote>Because Aerlick plays a DE and he gave them the best racial traits in the game hands down</blockquote>I have to admit, there is something rotten in denmark on this one....Look at what DE's get (the most common assasin choice).Then look at what wood elves get (the most common ranger choice).Someone got way over powered, someone else got shafted.Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Aerlick play a DE Assasin?

[azekah]

Off topic much?

[Giral]

<cite>Poetelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Blacktusk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you cater to the lowest common denominator, pretty soon, all you have is the low end of the bell-curve.</blockquote><p>Maybe. But players often forget a simple fact: its the lowest common denominator the one that pays the bills. SOE devs cant have that forgetful luxury.</p><p>EQ1 times are over, where 90% of the subscriptions paid for the fun of the 10% elite.</p><p>Im not against an elite game, a self-supported elite game. But if you have to share to maintain the game, it is expected that you compromise, if not with the so-called lowest denominator, at least with the average player on top of the mentioned Gauss curve.</p></blockquote><p>It is strange that Eq2 had a playerbase befor DOF and revamp, and after revamp,and constant dumb down's to the game, and then KOS, eq2 lost so many people they had to consolidate servers (game got Lots and lots easier and saw lots and lots leavin in drones so much so they had to consolidate servers /wierd huh, guess the golden Egg of Dumb easy play wasnt the ticket,and others have said Wow in some ways is Harder then Eq2) </p><p>Eof was a good expansion and had some harder zones with some strat's needed for some names and Unrest for along zone with a few harder encounters and CMM as the hardest in eof </p><p>ROK comes out and it is Alot harder then KOS, and Harder then EOF and well what do you know ? ROK has the most sales of any eq2 expansion /PONDER ..... why is that ? why is it that an Expansion that is alot harder then Previous expansions ever have been is the best selling one ? My Guess is Players actualy Like things Harder ,more Challanging.looking for a game thats a Step up from WOW ,   if not i think ROK would have sold the Least amount of copies of all expansions. </p><p>if the numbers dont speak for themselves. what does the Casual/Average gamer want to do ? do they realy want to leave WOW an Easy game and come to Eq2 another easy game ?   IF so then why were so many WOW people looking forward to Vanguard ? if so Why were so many from WOW looking forawrd to AOC? and why are others looking forward to WARHammer ???  in my own opinion you cant stay on Newb Island forever, and People got there feet wet in WOW , now they want a game with challange, more skill,more indepth combat </p><p>also and i thing that is always over looked when talking about MMO's, is console games(Yuck i know) , but how many people play console games ? hundreds of thousands, and amazingly the best selling games are ones that arent easy, or ones that take skill to play, even Mario Brothers games dont stay easy thru the entire game, you going to need memory,timing,knowlegde of abilities,etc,,  and then you come to play an Online Game like eq2 and its just a snooze feast and you can play it wyle your semi afk 90% of the time ?  sorry but the Gaming generation dont want spoonfed they want a well designed game that leaves them with a sense of anticipation loggin in and a sense of not wanting to leave and cant wait to get back and try again.  who realy wants to play an average game ? </p><p>the biggest issue with Eq2 i myself feel was that it didnt progressively get harder as you leveled, when you were level 70 it was no diffrent then being level 35 or 49 or 53,or 65,etc,, it was all the same game,same difficulty,same AI.    Eq2 should have been getting harder as you level, no way level 80 should play as level 30 does(and thankfuly in ROK it doesn't, you actualy need some semblance of skill/knowledge with your class at endgame ) </p><p>people say " But like OMG if the game gets harder as you get stronger, then why even play ?" (and yes i have seen this arguement lol)  the reason you keep playing and YOU keep getting stronger is becuase your striving to get even Stronger and better, and you need even more challanging enemies engage, whats the point of being level 200 if its the same as fighting at level 28 ?  </p><p>and i personaly disagree with the average player pays for the elite players to have fun, if there is 10 % elite players and there paying for 10% of the game and there is only 1% hardcore content  then there paying for there own content and some of the avergae players content arent they  ? </p><p>we ALL pay to play Eq2, and the Minority/Hardcore arguement is SO 2006. please play a diffrent card KK thnks.. Eq2 was and is Sold as a MMO for ALL play styles, and in ROk they have come close to it , some more interesting solo content/questlines,small group content,more AE content for Sk's,warlokcs,Zerkers/etc,,, and some X-2 raid zones and heritage quests and rok would be near perfect for ALL playestyles  and dont we all Deserve Equal treatment and content in eq2 since we ALL pay to play ? </p>

[Keff]

<cite>Cracklepop wrote:</cite><blockquote>That says it all right there.  I'm not talking about instances, that's on a case by case basis. I'm talking about failed disarmed chests that explode and that can seriously injure or kill you, not just give you a little scratch.  Why bother even having a disarm skill?  What happened to the fizzling spells?Failed tradeskill counter spells that cause real damage.   The forge used to be a real killer.  Make it so again.  Now, if I fail, I might lose 5 points of health, if any at all.     Along this line is the jump down from the top of Freeport TS to the bottom floor.   Nary a scratch, and without any kind of safefall.    Safefall in general is too pillowy soft.  Just about every class gets it or glide or float or some kind of fall nerf.  You should be afraid to jump.  Your safefall should be how many HPs you have.  (This is the usual safefall method for tanks.  heh)  Speaking of fear...   Make the zones really dangerous again.  Remember when Nek Forest was dreaded by all making their way to the dock?  Agro everywhere.  Even the paths weren't safe.   Bring back the tons of killing involved in betraying.   Having to group up to kill some nameds is a lot more fun that just having to switch out a few clipboards (for Freeport --> Qeynos).   Betraying should take more than just one afternoon to complete.  I know,  they made all these changes because ppl were whining about having a real challenge in the game.  Now it's just grinding.  Long, slow, tedious grinding.  Where is the adventure?  Where is the challenge?/hidesoapbox</blockquote>You want danger? Come to Nagafen and make a non scout. Players will always be the most challenge in the game. You can honestly get killed in Antonica on your level 80 Character while walking to the Griffon tower.

[Kittiilitter]

When you make something harder the rewards must be greater also,Sony isnt too good at that as it is.As for PvP,it is very limited even moreso than PvE. There are only so many things a player can do while NPC abilities are endless.The poster above me obviously hasnt done much PvP in EQ or other games OR he hasn't played against good players.

[Rainmare]

The game needs to have a sense of accomplishment back into it. be it corpse runs, spirit shards, whatever. Death needs to have a sting to it, so dying actually means something to a player. of course, there are the people who say 'that's just adding a timesink, and time=skill' unfortunatly, that's flat out false.people who play this game more, know more. they are more skilled, and in many cases they can do things with thier characters that someone that has less playtime couldn't dream of pulling off. It was the same in EQ1. the paladin that played 40 hours a week was nearly godlike compared to the paladin that played 10. and not gear difference, skill difference. the 40 hour paladin knows all sort of tricks, nuances to his character. what he can do when up against the wall, what his abilities can do in extreme cases. even combinations of skills that other paladins would never think to use.people that talk about this game needs to be more accessible, well, sure. but not at the cost of any challenge. give me my heroics back in overland zones. make them wander. give me an occasional epic in there as well. limit the places a toon to low for a zone can find safety in.put back in the access quests. make sure the people going into EL have a clue as to how to play their class. make them have to group up once in a while to get something done so they know about group dynamics.these lvl 80 'newbs' need to stop coming in. before people pull out the 'we were all newbs at one point' card, this is beyond that. when we leveled up, the zones had tough mobs and encounters in them. it was crawling with beasties, and death had a little bite to it. not much, but something. you were a newb, but you certainly learned how to play your class. you learned things like body pulling, when to use your deaggroes, how to use the pacify type spells. the access quests meant you at least 1 time per tier had to group with folks and work as a team to do something, thus you learned how your class functions in a group setting before you got to max level.seems to me there are three classes of gamer. there's the hardcores...the types that play this game religiously, and learn everything there is to know, and usually devote their time once at cap to raiding for the biggest baddest gear. Then there's the casual...they play this game like a hobby. you play a lot, but you don't delve into things like weapon a is better then weapon b because the spreads and the delay gives it a 3 degree higher parse. then there the 'weekender' or 'enthusiast'. the people that play maybe twice a week, maybe 6 hours total.the game should be aimed toward the real 'casual'. the people who enjoy the game, and play it as much as their time allows...in more of a hobby vein then a 'few hours to relax after work'. the ones that want to group up, and do dungeon crawls and do epic questlines, and maybe raid when the mood strikes. it needs to stop catering to the 'enthusiast' so much, by making everything soloable, and leveling ten levels only take maybe 3 hours, and making grouping just basically a waste of time until you hit the level cap...and taking away all the penalty of death.the very fact that you can die, rebuff, and go back into combat and not even have to worry about your 'rez effects' unless your in a raid should say something's wrong.I'm sorry if it's harsh, and I'm sorry if it sounds like it's penalizing peopel with limited time to play. but if you can't get some people together to spend 30-45 min on an access quest, then yes, you don't deserve to be in the area it gives access to. you have then two options. find some peopel to group with, or level in the zones you have access to until the quest can be soloed by yourself.everything doesn't have to be made easier or dumbed down. people need to learn to have patience, be willing to do what you need to do to get things done. if that means you have to spend extra time in TS before you can go to Zek, so be it. that's the style and time limits you have chosen. The game should not be made easier to accomadate you, anymore then I should be able to walking to VP just becuase I want to see what's in there.

[Devout Disciple]

<cite>Poetelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Maybe. But players often forget a simple fact: its the lowest common denominator the one that pays the bills. SOE devs cant have that forgetful luxury.</p><p>EQ1 times are over, where 90% of the subscriptions paid for the fun of the 10% elite.</p><p>Im not against an elite game, a self-supported elite game. But if you have to share to maintain the game, it is expected that you compromise, if not with the so-called lowest denominator, at least with the average player on top of the mentioned Gauss curve.</p></blockquote>I call it the "2% factor" myself cause they want to feel high above the clouds.  In a game that kind of attitude is disgusting.  <p>The elite don't want any other types of players in the game.  Not even to pay the bills for the game.  They're the "You get one shot and don't do as they expect you never get a group again" people.  That's what mostly happens anyway.  Few people group again and again after wiping enough with strangers.  Or they recruit somebody else to take your position and so they can pursue raiding faster.  If you don't wipe with them that is.  2 guilds in Befallen so far with the same results.</p><p>People are going to get fed up with this and leave if they keep releasing Unrest after RE2 after "X Heroic Extreme" dungeon they'll never get to see again when they reach the appointed level.</p><p>However it's easier to make content for a smaller group of people than work on content for a larger group so I expect more of the same.</p><p>For the one who said pre-DoF was harder not sure where that's coming from.  Was easier pre-DoF if you're a tank.  Must be a dps to say this.  That's why the population was higher back then FYI.  Before the exploiters found the avoidance issue.</p><p>Lastly RoK sold because of alot of solo quests in it and you could quest to the new cap for a change instead of grinding.</p>Edit: additional wording

[BriarHaven]

<p>I started the game about some time back because it was not EQ1 style game play.  If it solely focuses on raiding and grouping, like EQ1, I will leave.     This is true even at the end game. </p><p>MMOGS need to be diverse, for diverse peoples.   Also, I think having a life is important.    <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Keff]

<cite>Kittiilitter wrote:</cite><blockquote>As for PvP,it is very limited even moreso than PvE. There are only so many things a player can do while NPC abilities are endless.The poster above me obviously hasnt done much PvP in EQ or other games OR he hasn't played against good players.</blockquote><p>Wow, let your ignorance shine! With so many classes, so many AA trees,god powers and so many variable group make-ups in pvp you never know what to expect.</p><p>Yes I must not have PVPed much since I have 6th over all PVP kills game wide for a paladin.</p>

[greenmantle]

<p>Sadly MMO's are going  like the school system NPLB ( no player left behind )  it doesnt matter how incompetent or dumb  you are you should be able to get a lvl 80 char with nice gear and im not talking raid vs group etc. I mainly group and usually we have one or two pick up spots. </p><p>After tearing through an instance with three good people to have a ranger or wizzie that is outparsed but the dirge or a chanter than cant lock down a mob makes you realise that some people coast to 80 with out really learning anything. </p>

[Giral]

<p>the hardcore want it there way...and the casuals want it there way . whats the differance ? the differance is if they make Content for hardcore people the Casuals whine and cry that there is content that they cant complete.</p><p>flip side : Hardcores will cry and whine about Fabled items from solo/group stuff = Wrong most raiders have those items and used them until they got upgrades from raiding <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>name me one Group instance in the game that is Extremely hard for an Elite group ?</p><p>name me one group instance that isn't doable buy a well oiled casual group of friends?</p><p>I have a life ... Good for you so does everypne else BUT somepeople have more time and can do alot more with the time they play eq2 then others do,  example Player X says " i had LFG up for 4 hours and never got a group /CRY" and player Y says "in 4 hours we did 2 raids and a group instance i chatted away with friends .guildies,level chat,and crafted for a 1/2 hour befor i logged "  sometimes just having a life isnt a real excuse for lack luster game design and no backbbone to your combat  , so should content realy only be created for YOU that only has 2 hours to play here and there ? IMO most of the playerbase plays between 3 to 5 hours 5 days aweek , and some play alot more, so why is there not content created for the people who have more time,can do morewith there time,and need more challanging content for there playstyles ? </p><p>Meh . the name callin Hardcore/casual and i have a life and minority/majority crap arguements can go on forever,,,,,,,,how about they just create content for ALL of us and dont listen to Anyone cry about what Player X has or What player Y can do </p><p>OMG in ROK there are casual people who arent able to just Blast thru the group content and OMG they actualy have group content they have never seen ahead of them ( any people who turned off exp to enjoy the content and have an endless suply of it care to elaborate how nice it is to never run out of content ?) Gratz for them,,,,wish there were 3 or 4 group zones i hadnt seen all of yet. but meh i play 3 to 4 days a week, i raid 3 of those days /sigh and i still have been able to blast thru them all numerous times in my limited play time (yeah i know raid gear and blah blah blah whatever, how about they design some Group zones for Raid geared/FUlly mastered players??? whats wrong with 1 every level cap ? o right someone else wont be able to do ONE group zone in the game so /Rage quit ) </p><p>who's being greedy ? who wants the whole game to be to there playstyle ? IMO the casual people do, the hardcore just want some content for them, as evidence by numerous posts, but will they get it ? Nah... you wont see 1 Outside zone, one group dungeon, or one solo area that is near impossible for even the best geared player/groups in the game. it all has to be aimed at joe pleasure who says he dont have the time(actualy he plays more then i do 4 to 6 hours a day) who has a life( actualy he plays eq2 7days a week) and STILL cannot do the content in ROK and so it must be the Game is just to Hard /lol (Hint its not eq2 that is to hard,or the time you have to play it, its in learning to play instead of cryin on the boards everytime you dont win your first time in a zone,tryin a mob,doing a quest,getting a name/item(Yeah camps lol you whined them away as well we all know,not that campin was fun, but if YOU were on for 4 hours YOU wouldnt sit there anc camp 4 hours, but Others Would , they would sit and talk ,and kil random mobs, and have a fun time just campin out</p><p>  </p>

[Kage8]

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>the hardcore want it there way...and the casuals want it there way . whats the differance ? the differance is if they make Content for hardcore people the Casuals whine and cry that there is content that they cant complete.</p><p>flip side : Hardcores will cry and whine about Fabled items from solo/group stuff = Wrong most raiders have those items and used them until they got upgrades from raiding <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> </p><p>name me one Group instance in the game that is Extremely hard for an Elite group ?</p><p>name me one group instance that isn't doable buy a well oiled casual group of friends?</p><p>I have a life ... Good for you so does everypne else BUT somepeople have more time and can do alot more with the time they play eq2 then others do,  example Player X says " i had LFG up for 4 hours and never got a group /CRY" and player Y says "in 4 hours we did 2 raids and a group instance i chatted away with friends .guildies,level chat,and crafted for a 1/2 hour befor i logged "  sometimes just having a life isnt a real excuse for lack luster game design and no backbbone to your combat  , so should content realy only be created for YOU that only has 2 hours to play here and there ? IMO most of the playerbase plays between 3 to 5 hours 5 days aweek , and some play alot more, so why is there not content created for the people who have more time,can do morewith there time,and need more challanging content for there playstyles ? </p><p>Meh . the name callin Hardcore/casual and i have a life and minority/majority crap arguements can go on forever,,,,,,,,how about they just create content for ALL of us and dont listen to Anyone cry about what Player X has or What player Y can do </p><p>OMG in ROK there are casual people who arent able to just Blast thru the group content and OMG they actualy have group content they have never seen ahead of them ( any people who turned off exp to enjoy the content and have an endless suply of it care to elaborate how nice it is to never run out of content ?) Gratz for them,,,,wish there were 3 or 4 group zones i hadnt seen all of yet. but meh i play 3 to 4 days a week, i raid 3 of those days /sigh and i still have been able to blast thru them all numerous times in my limited play time (yeah i know raid gear and blah blah blah whatever, how about they design some Group zones for Raid geared/FUlly mastered players??? whats wrong with 1 every level cap ? o right someone else wont be able to do ONE group zone in the game so /Rage quit ) </p><p>who's being greedy ? who wants the whole game to be to there playstyle ? IMO the casual people do, the hardcore just want some content for them, as evidence by numerous posts, but will they get it ? Nah... you wont see 1 Outside zone, one group dungeon, or one solo area that is near impossible for even the best geared player/groups in the game. it all has to be aimed at joe pleasure who says he dont have the time(actualy he plays more then i do 4 to 6 hours a day) who has a life( actualy he plays eq2 7days a week) and STILL cannot do the content in ROK and so it must be the Game is just to Hard /lol (Hint its not eq2 that is to hard,or the time you have to play it, its in learning to play instead of cryin on the boards everytime you dont win your first time in a zone,tryin a mob,doing a quest,getting a name/item(Yeah camps lol you whined them away as well we all know,not that campin was fun, but if YOU were on for 4 hours YOU wouldnt sit there anc camp 4 hours, but Others Would , they would sit and talk ,and kil random mobs, and have a fun time just campin out</p><p>  </p></blockquote><p>Um hardcore people do have zones. There called raids. If you make a really hardcore zone thats for one grp and make it for elites ( Raiders ) then you need to make the drops better to compensate for the difficulty. But you cant make the loot better than raid gear cause no matter how hard a 1 grp zone is its not a 24 man grp. So if the loot is not as good as raid loot then why would the raider, elite, care about it? And before you say oh make the loot better than some raid loot, ok ill play along with that stupid idea too, then thats dumb too cause then the elite will just raid the zone anyways. Just have the guild make 4 grps of 6 people, hell its like raiding 4 times in one night lol. Why not just have SoE find out who raids and who dosent, then they can just ban all the people that dont raid at least 4 times a week. Awesome!</p><p>Leave the grp stuff to the reg guy. The elite can raid. Whats the problem with that?</p>

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>The game needs to have a sense of accomplishment back into it. be it corpse runs, spirit shards, whatever. Death needs to have a sting to it, so dying actually means something to a player. of course, there are the people who say 'that's just adding a timesink, and time=skill' unfortunatly, that's flat out false.</blockquote>When was the last time you checked your kills vs. deaths ratio?You're not even in the top 100 on your own server. Now that would be an accomplishment...Set your own goals, without enforcing inconvenience on other players, or is <i>that</i> too hard for you?Personally, I set my own goals and I'm on the top 100 on my server in my chosen field.

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Changes to Nek:I liked it.  It wasn't fair for the good people to be able to get around TS easily and evil characters to die over and over again because of the bad level design.  This caused an imballance of good and evil classes.<span style="color: #ff3300;">Didn't like it. I felt Nek was fine. Although I took advantage of it with my lowbies and farmed the solo names for loot and AA XP.</span>Removal of the Spirit Shard:Hated it.  Death means nothing now.  They should have removed the spirit shard for players lower than 30.  By the time you are 30, you pretty much get the hang of things and can take a little more beating.<span style="color: #ff3300;">LOL. Your guild are getting their collective bottoms handed to them. Nearly every 40th NPC is killing you guys.This game is too hard for you already!</span>Tradeskill - removal of subcombines:I liked it.  Tradeskilling was way too complicated for some of the professions.<span style="color: #ff3300;">Disliked it. Thought it made crafting too easy.</span>Changes to falling damage:Hated it.  Now it isn't a % of health, so lower players can die easier than higher ones.  I agree that you shouldn't be able to jump off of everything without fear.  It changed at EoF launch, so I think the land layout of those zones inspired the changes.  <span style="color: #ff3300;">Agree. Only classes with innate skills (such as safefall) and races with wings (fae and arasai) should not suffer falling damage.But what can you do when a dev has his pet class/race?</span></blockquote>

[Llach]

<cite>Devout Disciple wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Poetelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Maybe. But players often forget a simple fact: its the lowest common denominator the one that pays the bills. SOE devs cant have that forgetful luxury.</p><p>EQ1 times are over, where 90% of the subscriptions paid for the fun of the 10% elite.</p><p>Im not against an elite game, a self-supported elite game. But if you have to share to maintain the game, it is expected that you compromise, if not with the so-called lowest denominator, at least with the average player on top of the mentioned Gauss curve.</p></blockquote>I call it the "2% factor" myself cause they want to feel high above the clouds.  In a game that kind of attitude is disgusting.  <p>The elite don't want any other types of players in the game.  Not even to pay the bills for the game.  They're the "You get one shot and don't do as they expect you never get a group again" people.  That's what mostly happens anyway.  Few people group again and again after wiping enough with strangers.  Or they recruit somebody else to take your position and so they can pursue raiding faster.  If you don't wipe with them that is. <b><span style="color: #cc0033;"> 2 guilds in Befallen so far with the same results</span></b>.</p><p>People are going to get fed up with this and leave if they keep releasing Unrest after RE2 after "X Heroic Extreme" dungeon they'll never get to see again when they reach the appointed level.</p><p>However it's easier to make content for a smaller group of people than work on content for a larger group so I expect more of the same.</p><p>For the one who said pre-DoF was harder not sure where that's coming from.  Was easier pre-DoF if you're a tank.  Must be a dps to say this.  That's why the population was higher back then FYI.  Before the exploiters found the avoidance issue.</p><p>Lastly RoK sold because of alot of solo quests in it and you could quest to the new cap for a change instead of grinding.</p>Edit: additional wording</blockquote><p>Personally I find labellists like you rather sad.  Do you do it in rl with anyone that prefers to have a more challenging past time or has a better job?</p><p>So what you are saying is that anyone that bought the game in 2004 and has played it since then is an elite??  Are you completely stupid or just pretending?</p><p>Ah after reading the highlighted bit you are just a bitter player that booted twice for being crap;  that explains the post.  No point reading beyond that line.</p>

[Llach]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>The game needs to have a sense of accomplishment back into it. be it corpse runs, spirit shards, whatever. Death needs to have a sting to it, so dying actually means something to a player. of course, there are the people who say 'that's just adding a timesink, and time=skill' unfortunatly, that's flat out false.</blockquote>When was the last time you checked your kills vs. deaths ratio?You're not even in the top 100 on your own server. Now that would be an accomplishment...Set your own goals, without enforcing inconvenience on other players, or is <i>that</i> too hard for you?Personally, I set my own goals and I'm on the top 100 on my server in my chosen field.</blockquote>He probably does what I do, use death as convenient zone travel. Saves time running anywhere.

[liveja]

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>ROK comes out and it is Alot harder then KOS, and Harder then EOF</p></blockquote><p>Um .... are you referring to specific aspects of ROK -- like maybe the raid zones -- or are you asserting that ROK, in general & overall, is "Alot harder" than either KOS or EOF?</p><p>If the former, then I'd potentially agree; the raid zones I've done in ROK so far (not many, & not even the high level stuff!) have been pretty tough. I can only imagine what VP & such are like, when Thuuga, Pawbuster, & the Brother/Sister duo in Kor-Sha are as tough as they are. But even then, it's a matter of learning the encounter, & once you've got it down, it becomes progressively easier to do.</p><p>If you're saying the latter, however -- that ROK, overall, is much harder than KOS & EOF -- than I <b>strongly</b> disagree.</p>

[Devout Disciple]

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>(yeah i know raid gear and blah blah blah whatever, how about they design some Group zones for Raid geared/FUlly mastered players??? whats wrong with 1 every level cap ? o right someone else wont be able to do ONE group zone in the game so /Rage quit ) </p></blockquote><p>That's 1/2.  Take one of these posts and call me in the morning: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=266277� " target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...;#2924283 </a> Old post aye but looks like they're going a totally different direction from what's stated.  With releasing extreme dungeons like Unrest and RE2.  Now all that needs to be confirmed is if you're dps.</p><p><cite>Aollish@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Personally I find labellists like you rather sad.  Do you do it in rl with anyone that prefers to have a more challenging past time or has a better job?</p><p>So what you are saying is that anyone that bought the game in 2004 and has played it since then is an elite??  Are you completely stupid or just pretending?</p><p>Ah after reading the highlighted bit you are just a bitter player that booted twice for being crap;  that explains the post.  No point reading beyond that line.</p></blockquote><p>A dps barking to a tank.  If the game was half as hard for dps as it is for tanks I think the dps would drop dead on the floor from too much exhaustion.  Try having the game as interactive for dps as is for tanks before barking at a tank about anything.  Just state your gear and spells and you'll be 2/2.</p><p>Maybe that's where this so called "easy problem" for the dps lies.  Maybe they need to get put more on their toes instead.  If the dps disagree then I know what this is about.  It's just another thread for smacking at tanks.  Either that or to rub it in our faces since they (the dps) weren't wanted before DoF and you never know when your time can come again for that.</p><p>Btw I left the game before on 1/2 of those guilds.  They must've booted me for inactivity. (Their letter said they were leaving for a raiding guild *smacks forhead*)  Certainly wasn't going to sit around while they run raids and Unrest.  The other guild I'm still in but they're pulling the same garbage.  Not going to let them ruin me this time though.  If the crusader prejudice is going to exist it's going to exist.  You dps can be as classist and discriminating as you want to be.</p><p>You put yourself in your own catergory FYI by calling me crap.  I ran all heroic content in KoS just fine before Unrest.  Well only got to see it once so couldn't really run it anyway.  So I do just fine whether you think so or not.  I know I won't see RE2 or any raid so that's that.</p><p>Only responded here to refute your "a crap tank" accusation.  I won't respond to a dps again.  Yes I'm being classist this time because that's the type of response your post wanted out of it.  How does it feel?  I said <b>the game was easier for a tank pre-DoF</b> if you didn't bother to read it.</p><p>Edit: additional content & wording corrections & grammar</p>

[Llach]

<cite>Devout Disciple wrote:</cite><blockquote>Btw I left the game before on 1/2 of those guilds.  They must've booted me for inactivity.  Certainly wasn't going to sit around while they run raids and Unrest.  The other guild I'm still in but they're pulling the same garbage.  Not going to let them ruin me this time though.  If the crusader prejudice is going to exist it's going to exist.  You dps can be as classist and discriminating as you want to be. <p>You put yourself in your own catergory FYI by calling me crap.  I ran all heroic content in KoS just fine before Unrest.  Well only got to see it once so couldn't really run it anyway.  So I do just fine whether you think so or not.  I know I won't see RE2 or any raid so that's that.</p><p>Only responded here to refute your "a crap tank" accusation.  I won't respond to a dps again.  Yes I'm being classist this time because that's the type of response your post wanted out of it.  How does it feel?</p><p>Edit: additional content & wording corrections</p></blockquote><p>That would be true if I didn't also have a Monk, played Zerker (twice to cap) and a few other dps classes and a healer.</p><p>Not sure why you won't see RE2?  You must have a poor rep, as I have seen plenty of Paladins and an sk run it, (AND NO NOT ALL OF THOSE ARE FABLED RAIDERS).</p><p>Look to your own shortcomings as a player (and a person) before you blame a game and all the players of that game!</p>

[liveja]

<cite>Devout Disciple wrote:</cite><blockquote>If the crusader prejudice is going to exist it's going to exist.</blockquote>My current favorite tank is a Pally.

[TheKreep]

<p>I miss the days of the challenging MMO. It used to matter what skills you brought to a group and how well you played now it seems things simply go boom in about 10secs. And what is with death penalty, why even still have it in there it is impossible to actualy die enough to make it hurt.</p><p>Group.. why group... ? </p><p>Because I thought that was the point of a MMORPG. I agree there should be things you can do to advance your character or productively waste time while you look, but making the whole game solo from start to finish hurts the community and challenge.</p><p>I think it would be better for the casual gamer to make finding and getting to groups faster. That is the biggest time killer. Better group matching/query tools combined with travel systems via gameworld and class spells would be the best way to combat that problem.</p><p>EVERY game I've tried has become less of a challenge and the ones that had some are axing it. </p><p>In the good ole days a bad player would be ousted from the group or killed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> because they were more of a detriment to exp gain then a benefit. Trial by fire!!!  </p>

[Zwildstar]

<p>EQ2 is a shadow of its former self... </p><p>...but currently I am looking for what EQ2 is now... a MMORPG on easy-mode.  I personally like being able to log in, actually gain a level or at least see my xp bar move after as little as 15 minutes of playtime and not have to worry about a making the wrong turn and dieing every other step like it was in the beginning of EQ2.</p><p>If you like challenges, EQ2 still has certain areas that still require skill to navigate like Thundering Steppes.  It is remarkable what happened to Nek Forest though... it went from being the toughest zone in game to a cake walk. LOL </p><p>I really hate the "crafting system" currently, the biggest draw to EQ2 for me was the indepth system they had at launch... but sadly I was pretty much alone on that concept. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[StormCinder]

<cite>Devout Disciple wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>(yeah i know raid gear and blah blah blah whatever, how about they design some Group zones for Raid geared/FUlly mastered players??? whats wrong with 1 every level cap ? o right someone else wont be able to do ONE group zone in the game so /Rage quit ) </p></blockquote><p>That's 1/2.  Take one of these posts and call me in the morning: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=266277� " target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...;#2924283 </a> Old post aye but looks like they're going a totally different direction from what's stated.  With releasing extreme dungeons like Unrest and RE2.  Now all that needs to be confirmed is if you're dps.</p><p><cite>Aollish@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Personally I find labellists like you rather sad.  Do you do it in rl with anyone that prefers to have a more challenging past time or has a better job?</p><p>So what you are saying is that anyone that bought the game in 2004 and has played it since then is an elite??  Are you completely stupid or just pretending?</p><p>Ah after reading the highlighted bit you are just a bitter player that booted twice for being crap;  that explains the post.  No point reading beyond that line.</p></blockquote><p>A dps barking to a tank.  If the game was half as hard for dps as it is for tanks I think the dps would drop dead on the floor from too much exhaustion.  Try having the game as interactive for dps as is for tanks before barking at a tank about anything.  Just state your gear and spells and you'll be 2/2.</p><p>Maybe that's where this so called "easy problem" for the dps lies.  Maybe they need to get put more on their toes instead.  If the dps disagree then I know what this is about.  It's just another thread for smacking at tanks.  Either that or to rub it in our faces since they (the dps) weren't wanted before DoF and you never know when your time can come again for that.</p><p>Btw I left the game before on 1/2 of those guilds.  They must've booted me for inactivity. (Their letter said they were leaving for a raiding guild *smacks forhead*)  Certainly wasn't going to sit around while they run raids and Unrest.  The other guild I'm still in but they're pulling the same garbage.  Not going to let them ruin me this time though.  If the crusader prejudice is going to exist it's going to exist.  You dps can be as classist and discriminating as you want to be.</p><p>You put yourself in your own catergory FYI by calling me crap.  I ran all heroic content in KoS just fine before Unrest.  Well only got to see it once so couldn't really run it anyway.  So I do just fine whether you think so or not.  I know I won't see RE2 or any raid so that's that.</p><p>Only responded here to refute your "a crap tank" accusation.  I won't respond to a dps again.  Yes I'm being classist this time because that's the type of response your post wanted out of it.  How does it feel?  I said <b>the game was easier for a tank pre-DoF</b> if you didn't bother to read it.</p><p>Edit: additional content & wording corrections & grammar</p></blockquote>I can't tell if you two are joking or not?  If you are, then this is the funniest thread this week.  If not, then this is the most pathetic thread this week (and there was some REAL competition.)SC

[TheKreep]

<cite>Zwildstar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>EQ2 is a shadow of its former self... </p><p>...but currently I am looking for what EQ2 is now... a MMORPG on easy-mode.  I personally like being able to log in, actually gain a level or at least see my xp bar move after as little as 15 minutes of playtime and not have to worry about a making the wrong turn and dieing every other step like it was in the beginning of EQ2.</p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">If you like challenges, EQ2 still has certain areas that still require skill to navigate like Thundering Steppes</span>.  It is remarkable what happened to Nek Forest though... it went from being the toughest zone in game to a cake walk. LOL </p><p>I really hate the "crafting system" currently, the biggest draw to EQ2 for me was the indepth system they had at launch... but sadly I was pretty much alone on that concept. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>NO that is exactly what I'm talking about. Getting to your group shouldn't be a walk off the plank in EXP death. Navigating is not a favorite pasttime... the group and the objective is. No one wants to have their two hours of play time taken up by two hours of travel that  led to 25% debt.  But that doesn't mean the game needs to be easy and solo'able, that means there needs to be mechanics in place to make getting to your objective less hazardess and time consuming.

[Giral]

<cite>Devout Disciple wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>(yeah i know raid gear and blah blah blah whatever, how about they design some Group zones for Raid geared/FUlly mastered players??? whats wrong with 1 every level cap ? o right someone else wont be able to do ONE group zone in the game so /Rage quit ) </p></blockquote><p>That's 1/2.  Take one of these posts and call me in the morning: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=266277� " target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...;#2924283 </a> Old post aye but looks like they're going a totally different direction from what's stated.  With releasing extreme dungeons like Unrest and RE2.  Now all that needs to be confirmed is if you're dps.</p><p><cite>Aollish@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Personally I find labellists like you rather sad.  Do you do it in rl with anyone that prefers to have a more challenging past time or has a better job?</p><p>So what you are saying is that anyone that bought the game in 2004 and has played it since then is an elite??  Are you completely stupid or just pretending?</p><p>Ah after reading the highlighted bit you are just a bitter player that booted twice for being crap;  that explains the post.  No point reading beyond that line.</p></blockquote><p>A dps barking to a tank.  If the game was half as hard for dps as it is for tanks I think the dps would drop dead on the floor from too much exhaustion.  Try having the game as interactive for dps as is for tanks before barking at a tank about anything.  Just state your gear and spells and you'll be 2/2.</p><p>Maybe that's where this so called "easy problem" for the dps lies.  Maybe they need to get put more on their toes instead.  If the dps disagree then I know what this is about.  It's just another thread for smacking at tanks.  Either that or to rub it in our faces since they (the dps) weren't wanted before DoF and you never know when your time can come again for that.</p><p>Btw I left the game before on 1/2 of those guilds.  They must've booted me for inactivity. (Their letter said they were leaving for a raiding guild *smacks forhead*)  Certainly wasn't going to sit around while they run raids and Unrest.  The other guild I'm still in but they're pulling the same garbage.  Not going to let them ruin me this time though.  If the crusader prejudice is going to exist it's going to exist.  You dps can be as classist and discriminating as you want to be.</p><p>You put yourself in your own catergory FYI by calling me crap.  I ran all heroic content in KoS just fine before Unrest.  Well only got to see it once so couldn't really run it anyway.  So I do just fine whether you think so or not.  I know I won't see RE2 or any raid so that's that.</p><p>Only responded here to refute your "a crap tank" accusation.  I won't respond to a dps again.  Yes I'm being classist this time because that's the type of response your post wanted out of it.  How does it feel?  I said <b>the game was easier for a tank pre-DoF</b> if you didn't bother to read it.</p><p>Edit: additional content & wording corrections & grammar</p></blockquote><p>Main Toon since release is a Shadowknight have never stopped playing him, have raided in t-5,t-6.t-7.t-8. have MT'd and Ot'd Plenty of raids. (Nope never been a Guild leader or Officer in any of the raid guilds i was in, and Nope i dont play the political card,infact with my personalaity in guilds im suprised i don't get booted the first week/chuckle...so Easymode i dont know anything about it ; ) </p>

[Giral]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>ROK comes out and it is Alot harder then KOS, and Harder then EOF</p></blockquote><p>Um .... are you referring to specific aspects of ROK -- like maybe the raid zones -- or are you asserting that ROK, in general & overall, is "Alot harder" than either KOS or EOF?</p><p>If the former, then I'd potentially agree; the raid zones I've done in ROK so far (not many, & not even the high level stuff!) have been pretty tough. I can only imagine what VP & such are like, when Thuuga, Pawbuster, & the Brother/Sister duo in Kor-Sha are as tough as they are. But even then, it's a matter of learning the encounter, & once you've got it down, it becomes progressively easier to do.</p><p>If you're saying the latter, however -- that ROK, overall, is much harder than KOS & EOF -- than I <b>strongly</b> disagree.</p></blockquote><p>yes im saying that ROK is alot harder then KOS, do you see anyone Soloing the Group zones in ROK ? did you see people Soloing thru SOS,PoA,DEN,even HOF people were soloing,  Grouping ? you could pull entire rooms of mobs in KOS and im talking about having 8 or more Herioc mobs on you at a time with 1 healer , can you do that in ROK ? can you pull 8 herioc mobs with 1 healer ? </p><p>Solo game in KOS or EOF , even con solo mob in Kos/Eof compared to an even con Solo mob in rok ? No contest i could pull Entire Islands of mobs in TT on my SK and Ae the hell out of them,  in ROK ? in KP i can pull possibly 4 to 6 Solo mobs and beat them, but they hit harder, stun more, some stay out of range so harder to gather up 20+ mobs at a time, etc,, </p><p>is ROK  harder ? IMO yes it is , solo mobs are alot tougher , most people when soloing if they get 2 adds they either need to RUn or Die, Group Zones n ROk ? most you need a decent group to complete, Name encounters have more Meat to them More HP and do More damage and have More Scripts , </p><p>you say you Strongly disagree, please add how you think the SOLO and GRoup game isn't any harder then KOS or EOF , cuase i'd realy like to know, becuase i see ALOT of posts from people saying the opposite, and that they actualy ENjoy needing a 5 to 6 person group to do group zones, and that Nobody can SOLO the group zones in ROK(Has anybody yet Soloed Cheslith? or CHardok? or Maidens ? or Voes ? id like to know : ) </p><p>Its just My opinion , and yes i know some people can 3 or 4 group some of the current group zones, but i havent heard of 1 DOU group doing Maidens.voes,chels,etc,,,  so ROK > EOf and Eof>KOS IMO (and yes some people were soloing MMC(bottom and Top,i know becuase i could : ) , people wer soloing Kaladim, ACAD, OOB and COV(not sure if people soloed ALL of the names in these zones, but maybe others could answer if they have been completely soloed) and DOU grouping and 3 grouping all but possibly MMCastle(and yes i have soloed SOME of the trash in MMCastle at level 70 BUT the place repops to fast (for me as an SK , maybe other sk's or other classes could solo to names and solo some names in there? ) </p><p>I can't even solo in KC in ROK, possibly i could take out some of the trash, but highley doubt i could solo a name in there.  ill give it a go tho and train and clear to some of the names and see how it goes : ) </p>

[Buttersworth]

<cite>Aollish@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>The game needs to have a sense of accomplishment back into it. be it corpse runs, spirit shards, whatever. Death needs to have a sting to it, so dying actually means something to a player. of course, there are the people who say 'that's just adding a timesink, and time=skill' unfortunatly, that's flat out false.</blockquote>When was the last time you checked your kills vs. deaths ratio?You're not even in the top 100 on your own server. Now that would be an accomplishment...Set your own goals, without enforcing inconvenience on other players, or is <i>that</i> too hard for you?Personally, I set my own goals and I'm on the top 100 on my server in my chosen field.</blockquote>He probably does what I do, use death as convenient zone travel. Saves time running anywhere.</blockquote><p>Yeah, seriously.  But didn't I read somewhere recently someone was crying about the death penalty?  How it was so harsh?  I kid you not.  It was probably a troll but he got very sympathetic responses from people.</p><p>But on to the kvd ratio...all that is is playing a different way.  And good for you Mr. Wolfie, it's good to have goals and achieve them.  But if everyone focused only on kvd nobody would ever die because it is just that easy to avoid death in this game if that is your goal.  </p><p>This game has changed a lot.  Not all for the better.  They say WoW is even harder than this now.  And that's saying something.</p><p>Jammu </p>

[liveja]

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>yes im saying that ROK is alot harder then KOS, do you see anyone Soloing the Group zones in ROK ?</p></blockquote><p>I don't think that's an especially good indication of difficulty, particularly when you do them in a group they're almost all cakewalks. IMO, Halls of Fate, as a group dungeon, is more "difficult" & "challenging" than CoA, & I'd argue that CoV is as well.</p><p>The outdoor solo mobs are quite easy to kill, & the solo quests are quite easy to do.</p>

[Rainmare]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>The game needs to have a sense of accomplishment back into it. be it corpse runs, spirit shards, whatever. Death needs to have a sting to it, so dying actually means something to a player. of course, there are the people who say 'that's just adding a timesink, and time=skill' unfortunatly, that's flat out false.</blockquote>When was the last time you checked your kills vs. deaths ratio?You're not even in the top 100 on your own server. Now that would be an accomplishment...Set your own goals, without enforcing inconvenience on other players, or is <i>that</i> too hard for you?Personally, I set my own goals and I'm on the top 100 on my server in my chosen field.</blockquote>Kill vs Death ratio? what does that have to do with anything. people that raid, have bad ratios, because we die 7-10 times a night on single raid encounters.inconvience on other players? okay, how about they stop making me have to have the 'inconvience' of teaching people how to play thier classes in groups becuase they leveled to 80 solo in 2 weeks? Or how about the inconvience of being unable to do heroic quests at the levels they are intended for because grouping has become a waste of time?I play to enjoy myself, but I also play right now only because I have friends that still play. I'd probably be playing vanguard because that game actually supposedly has a challenge in it. death means something.you're complaining about kvd ratios? I coudl give myself a perfect kvd ratio if I really wanted. it's not hard. you kill green and blue mobs for a few months. I don't PvP. PvP is a waste of time for me, because the game mechanics  cripple certain classes. you simply cannot design a game entirely for PvE, then throw a PvP system on top of it,  and have it be even remotely in the ballpark of fair.right now, scouts are the kings of PvP. and once enough complaints come in, some other group or class will be the 'top' of PvP. so to me, PvP is just as simple as rolling the 'flavor of the month' and dominating your opponents until the flavor changes.you shouldn't think of death as simply a 'poor man's evac' or even as just an 'oh darn.' thing. It should teach you to respect the game world. it should teach you that there are simply some things you can't do at the level you try them at, or that the same strategy doesn't work all the time, and it's not just 'oh, lets switch out the conjy for a brig and we're good'. When you die, you should lean back in your chair, hell, maybe even curse a bit, and revaluate what happened.you shouldn't WANT to try and throw a level 53 wizard in just treasured gear and adept1 spells against a level 59 heroic mob, because you know you'll die, and you know it'll hurt when you do. a level 10 shouldn't even want to go to a level 20+ zone because death is going to be the order of the day.Death has to<i> hurt. </i>Or no one will care about dying. and if they don't care about dying, then there's no reason to learn to play a character, because who cares if it goes bad? it's only 3 gold and 1 mob worth of debt. your repaired and out of debt in 2 minutes. and the 'revive sickness' is a joke. it doesn't even weaken you enough to acknowledge it.it's the same in the real world. people that are good at boxing learned that being hit hurts, and that's a bad thing. people that pratice martial arts, do this thing called sparring. that's where you face off against someone else, and you learn to either do what your training has taught you, or you get knocked on your rear. because being knocked on your rear hurts, you learn to do what you were trained for.how fun would a boxing match be if the punches didn't phase you? what value would learning a martial art be if being knocked down didn't hurt you? people would stop doing it. when there's no challenge, there's nothing to keep you trying to be better.in video games, those punches come in the form of a death penalty. that's when the game knocks you on your digital rear. as it stands right now, it doesn't mean anything. it doesn't hinder you, it doesn't even slow you down. which is why, once the 'new game shine' wears off, people simply leave. there's no reason to stay. there's noway to improve, there's nothing to challenge you.that's why there are tanks that literally don't know what body pulling is. that's why there are mages and scouts if you tell them to use thier deaggroes if they pull aggro from you, ask you what those are. that's why thier are priests that don't know they have debuff spells.there's simply no incentive to learn to use them. because if you die, who cares? it's only 2 minutes to be back at full fighting strength again. and that needs to change. the game world needs to be dangerous to our pixelated alter egos. I'm not asking for Eq1's level loss, or exp loss. what I want is for death to hurt again. I'd be happy if the 'rez sickness' actually crippled you for the 5 minutes that's it up. I'd be more happy if they returned things like spirit shards or Crs.hell, make so I have to kill 20 mobs to get out of the debt of a single death. something to make you not want to die, and to care about doing things that very well might get you killed. if death meant you were in bad shape for 5 minutes, you'd probably learn about things like body pulling and deaggroes and pacify because you would actually CARE if you died or not.

[Finora]

<p><cite>I can't bear to sift through this whole long thread so I'll just give the OP  my thoughts. </cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite>Cracklepop wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That says it all right there.  I'm not talking about instances, that's on a case by case basis. I'm talking about failed disarmed chests that explode and that can seriously injure or kill you, not just give you a little scratch.  Why bother even having a disarm skill?  What happened to the fizzling spells?</p><p><b><span style="color: #cc6699;">I don't know what chests you are talking about, adept chests never were much of a danger, just would occassionally toss that stun that was dangerous if you weren't in a safe place. The little ones were never a real danger at all. Master chests were the real danger. They still are if you don't wait until you have a good bit of health.  I know someone that was killed by one just the other day because someone in his group was impatient. I was taken down to 10% health from full last week because someone forgot we had a scout. /shrug</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #cc6699;">Fizzles? blah, good riddance to those, thanks. I still get interrupted. That can still kill me, kill a group, wipe a raid. /sarcasm on Oh yeah fizzles, boy I really miss FIZZLING when I was harvesting, boy! that was a good mechanic /sarcasm off</span></b></p><p><b></b>Failed tradeskill counter spells that cause real damage.   The forge used to be a real killer.  Make it so again.  Now, if I fail, I might lose 5 points of health, if any at all.     Along this line is the jump down from the top of Freeport TS to the bottom floor.   Nary a scratch, and without any kind of safefall.    </p><p><b><span style="color: #cc6699;">It's was honestly kind of stupid to have the forge kill people, though it was amusing in the days it was the top killer of players. Health loss (up to death) means nothing to a tradeskiller, POWER loss which I assure you still exists for failed counters, is a pain. Tradeskill folks have any number of ways to face a quick death, I don't see a reason to bring back the killer forge.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #cc6699;">I don't know what sort you are jumping down with, or maybe my character just jumped wrong or something (forgot I wasn't on my arasai) but my SK plummetted to her death in a FP tradeskill instance a couple of weeks ago.</span></b></p><b></b><p>Safefall in general is too pillowy soft.  Just about every class gets it or glide or float or some kind of fall nerf.  You should be afraid to jump.  Your safefall should be how many HPs you have.  (This is the usual safefall method for tanks.  heh)  Speaking of fear...   Make the zones really dangerous again.  Remember when Nek Forest was dreaded by all making their way to the dock?  Agro everywhere.  Even the paths weren't safe.   </p><p><b><span style="color: #cc6699;">Eh, if you watched what was going on Nek wasn't all that bad back in the day. I didn't have any trouble running my baby fury through way back when. Of course, I also didn't have any trouble running that same fury (who was level locked ) at 29 through Kunark to do the tradeskill quests & get all her ports either.  It was considerably more difficult to manuver than Thundering Steppes, so I suppose the evening out of good vs evil was part of the plan there. Everfrost/Lavastorm, yeah those were really dangerous. They are somewhat less so these days.</span></b>Bring back the tons of killing involved in betraying.   Having to group up to kill some nameds is a lot more fun that just having to switch out a few clipboards (for Freeport --> Qeynos).   Betraying should take more than just one afternoon to complete.  I know,  they made all these changes because ppl were whining about having a real challenge in the game.  Now it's just grinding.  Long, slow, tedious grinding.  Where is the adventure?  Where is the challenge?/hidesoapbox</p></blockquote><p>I don't know about betrayal personally, I never bothered as I never wanted a race class combo that it was required for. I do remember people having major issues trying to find people willing to take the time to group up to kill the named so they could actually finish their betrayals. I'm betting that had a bit to do with the decision to make it faction grinding instead (which honestly makes just as much sense, a series of things you have to do to prove yourself to the city rather than kill x many things, these 3 bosses and hurrah we trust you come on in).</p><p>I don't know about you, but the only time I've felt real thrills of fear were when I was out harvesting in zones that were red to whichever character I was on at the time. And yes, I bought the game when it was released and I've not quit at any point since then. </p><p>Some things are somewhat easier now (travel can be for sure). Does that make it boring? Does that make it a grind? I don't think so. That's a choice thing. I've never felt like I was grinding (other than when I got to those last few faction quests in Jarsath Wastes). There's still challenges out there & danger out there if you bother looking for it rather than sitting on your hands whining about the good old days. The good old days are gone. Long past. And many people think for the better. Change is inevitable in any MMO. </p><p>(okay so I lied. I did go back and read a few of the later posts)</p><p>I find there is plenty of demand for lower end crafted items. I make money off of them at least. Surely I'm not the only one.  </p><p>For those telling people who solo play to go play Oblivion...yeah that's a real comparison. PC game where you are all alone in the world with zero interaction vs a game where you get to interact with other players daily, buying/selling, grouping or soloing as you desire, joining guilds to level those up for in game items as a team even if you do the writs solo... yeah the solo player could get all that from Oblivion...wait ...what? No they can't.  No comparison at all.</p><p>People should stop fooling themselves about the 'good old days' as well. EQ2 wasn't hard then, somewhat more tedious with the ragefire like annoying wait for some mobs, travel was slower but things certainly were not hard. I remember 3-4 manning the overland epic x2s in crappy gear. Back when mystic wards didn't work right, long before there were achievement points. I remember having zero trouble soloing even as a mystic (other than the fact it took a long time). I remember having no trouble running around duoing heriocs with my husband's tank, even named. We got a few fabled things off named we killed together in Feerrott and places like that. Nothing much different than people can do today. I ran around harvesting and doing my thing. </p><p>That brings me to tradeskills. Hurrah for the removal of the subcombines. They were good in theory but failed miserably in practice. It was a mistake that some classes depended so heavily on other classes to level at all. Goodness help you if you were a sage and couldn't find a woodworker to make your quills. All the while other classes had a nice cornered market on making money (alchemists) and others could level up without ever talking to another person (provisioner). The subcombines themselves were tedium incarnate. The only purpose the really served was to make the combines take longer. I do NOT miss spending 4 hours not counting harvesting time to make a stack of good food and good drink. This gets repeated a lot on these forums and maybe one day people will get it, timesink does not equal challenge. Really truly it doesn't. Just because something takes a long time doesn't make it hard in the least. Tradeskilling at it's core hasn't changed. It's still pressing buttons. The same buttons with a few little tweaks (making it harder to tradeskill at lower levels and gets easier as you gain skill & level up). </p><p>I do think the death debt penalty could be bigger. I don't think it would matter much though. I know it wouldn't matter the slightest to me. I'd not change anything I currently do. I don't really think it'll change much of what anyone does, except maybe the folks who are ultra concerned about leveling to 80 as quickly as possible. They might find easier mobs/groups/instances to level up on. Bringing back shard retrieval? hahah. I doubt that would ever happen simply because of the nightmare it probably was for CS dealing with all the "My shard got stuck in the top of this tree in Nek forest and I can't get it, plz halp." Good riddance too. I had quite enough corpse runs in Eq1 thanks =) They really were just added timesinks in Eq2, they didn't add any real challenge and I've already gone over the 'timesink does not equal challenge'. </p><p>Someone mentioned DOF revamp with dumbing down (what?) and people leaving in droves. People left in droves because DOF was a major combat revamp and really changed some classes and people didn't like the classes they'd played for that long getting ripped apart and put back together as something they barely recognized. The people I know that left then left for nothing to do with 'making the game easier'. Changes that supposedly made the game 'easier' for the most part came much later. ROK being a harder expansion? Are you kidding? Raid zones yeah. Some of the group content, could be. Everything else? Are you joking? Really? Please tell me you are just talking about the raid stuff and some of the instance encounters, because those are the only hard things in ROK.</p><p>I highly agree with the person saying for some real challenge roll on a PVP server =) Then you have to worry about other players as well as the mobs you so look down your nose at. That should add some spice to the game if you find it lacking.</p>

[Talz]

KvD ratio?People that don't die don't try. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Finora]

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>you shouldn't think of death as simply a 'poor man's evac' or even as just an 'oh darn.' thing. It should teach you to respect the game world. it should teach you that there are simply some things you can't do at the level you try them at, or that the same strategy doesn't work all the time, and it's not just 'oh, lets switch out the conjy for a brig and we're good'. When you die, you should lean back in your chair, hell, maybe even curse a bit, and revaluate what happened.</p><p><span style="color: #cc6666;"><b>Lazy people will continue to be lazy people no matter what the game does unless they do a delete your char upon death or deleveling or some other annoyingly severe penalty for death. Any half decent player does get annoyed when they die, just because they died and then evalutes what happened and what they can do to keep from dying again in the same way. </b></span>you shouldn't WANT to try and throw a level 53 wizard in just treasured gear and adept1 spells against a level 59 heroic mob, because you know you'll die, and you know it'll hurt when you do. a level 10 shouldn't even want to go to a level 20+ zone because death is going to be the order of the day.</p><p><b><span style="color: #cc6666;">Why not? Sure there'd be a chance of death, but what's wrong with tempting the fates every once in  a while? You never know for sure unless you try, might be an overcon. Might just want to test how your spells hit against something of that level. Might just want to see how hard it would hit you. Some people are just curious & crazy like that. What's wrong with a level 10 player running around a zone that is certain death for them if they get hit? I did that when I was a newbie (way back when the game came out). I harvested for my tradeskilling myself with all my characters. It was quite fun to be lvl 10-11 in places like Feerrott. Everfrost at 28-29 was also quite a blast.</span></b>Death has to<i> hurt. </i>Or no one will care about dying. and if they don't care about dying, then there's no reason to learn to play a character, because who cares if it goes bad? it's only 3 gold and 1 mob worth of debt. your repaired and out of debt in 2 minutes. and the 'revive sickness' is a joke. it doesn't even weaken you enough to acknowledge it.</p><p><b><span style="color: #cc6666;">Death hurting doesn't really have that much of an effect on how well people learn to play their characters. Take eq1 for example. How many people made it to the level cap back in the day and still weren't good players? A lot. Death was a royal pain in Eq1. </span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #cc6666;">For players that actually really care, a death penalty doesn't matter at all. The death, the failure itself is enough to annoy them and make them rethink how they approached the situation.</span></b>it's the same in the real world. people that are good at boxing learned that being hit hurts, and that's a bad thing. people that pratice martial arts, do this thing called sparring. that's where you face off against someone else, and you learn to either do what your training has taught you, or you get knocked on your rear. because being knocked on your rear hurts, you learn to do what you were trained for.how fun would a boxing match be if the punches didn't phase you? what value would learning a martial art be if being knocked down didn't hurt you? people would stop doing it. when there's no challenge, there's nothing to keep you trying to be better.in video games, those punches come in the form of a death penalty. that's when the game knocks you on your digital rear. as it stands right now, it doesn't mean anything. it doesn't hinder you, it doesn't even slow you down. which is why, once the 'new game shine' wears off, people simply leave. there's no reason to stay. there's noway to improve, there's nothing to challenge you.that's why there are tanks that literally don't know what body pulling is. that's why there are mages and scouts if you tell them to use thier deaggroes if they pull aggro from you, ask you what those are. that's why thier are priests that don't know they have debuff spells.</p><p><span style="color: #cc6666;"><b>Actually thats because there are people who are just #)(&#* lazy. Too lazy to take five minutes to look at what spells/abilities they actually have as a class and too lazy to bother pushing the buttons when the time comes to use them. There is no in game cure for laziness. The only thing a severe death penalty might do for the most lazy of them is make them quit the game.</b></span></p><b></b><p>there's simply no incentive to learn to use them. because if you die, who cares? it's only 2 minutes to be back at full fighting strength again. and that needs to change. the game world needs to be dangerous to our pixelated alter egos. I'm not asking for Eq1's level loss, or exp loss. what I want is for death to hurt again. I'd be happy if the 'rez sickness' actually crippled you for the 5 minutes that's it up. I'd be more happy if they returned things like spirit shards or Crs.hell, make so I have to kill 20 mobs to get out of the debt of a single death. something to make you not want to die, and to care about doing things that very well might get you killed. if death meant you were in bad shape for 5 minutes, you'd probably learn about things like body pulling and deaggroes and pacify because you would actually CARE if you died or not.</p><p><b><span style="color: #cc6666;">I wouldn't at all be opposed to making you get a large amount of debt for deaths or more severe rez sickness. It wouldn't much effect how I play the game at all. I still don't think that would have the profound effect you seem to think it would on the skill of players. That has a lot more to do with the player's personality and how they are approaching the game than it does any ingame mechanics.</span></b></p></blockquote>

[StormCinder]

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>The game needs to have a sense of accomplishment back into it. be it corpse runs, spirit shards, whatever. Death needs to have a sting to it, so dying actually means something to a player. of course, there are the people who say 'that's just adding a timesink, and time=skill' unfortunatly, that's flat out false.</blockquote>When was the last time you checked your kills vs. deaths ratio?You're not even in the top 100 on your own server. Now that would be an accomplishment...Set your own goals, without enforcing inconvenience on other players, or is <i>that</i> too hard for you?Personally, I set my own goals and I'm on the top 100 on my server in my chosen field.</blockquote>Kill vs Death ratio? what does that have to do with anything. people that raid, have bad ratios, because we die 7-10 times a night on single raid encounters.inconvience on other players? okay, how about they stop making me have to have the 'inconvience' of teaching people how to play thier classes in groups becuase they leveled to 80 solo in 2 weeks? Or how about the inconvience of being unable to do heroic quests at the levels they are intended for because grouping has become a waste of time?I play to enjoy myself, but I also play right now only because I have friends that still play. I'd probably be playing vanguard because that game actually supposedly has a challenge in it. death means something.you're complaining about kvd ratios? I coudl give myself a perfect kvd ratio if I really wanted. it's not hard. you kill green and blue mobs for a few months. I don't PvP. PvP is a waste of time for me, because the game mechanics  cripple certain classes. you simply cannot design a game entirely for PvE, then throw a PvP system on top of it,  and have it be even remotely in the ballpark of fair.right now, scouts are the kings of PvP. and once enough complaints come in, some other group or class will be the 'top' of PvP. so to me, PvP is just as simple as rolling the 'flavor of the month' and dominating your opponents until the flavor changes.you shouldn't think of death as simply a 'poor man's evac' or even as just an 'oh darn.' thing. It should teach you to respect the game world. it should teach you that there are simply some things you can't do at the level you try them at, or that the same strategy doesn't work all the time, and it's not just 'oh, lets switch out the conjy for a brig and we're good'. When you die, you should lean back in your chair, hell, maybe even curse a bit, and revaluate what happened.you shouldn't WANT to try and throw a level 53 wizard in just treasured gear and adept1 spells against a level 59 heroic mob, because you know you'll die, and you know it'll hurt when you do. a level 10 shouldn't even want to go to a level 20+ zone because death is going to be the order of the day.Death has to<i> hurt. </i>Or no one will care about dying. and if they don't care about dying, then there's no reason to learn to play a character, because who cares if it goes bad? it's only 3 gold and 1 mob worth of debt. your repaired and out of debt in 2 minutes. and the 'revive sickness' is a joke. it doesn't even weaken you enough to acknowledge it.it's the same in the real world. people that are good at boxing learned that being hit hurts, and that's a bad thing. people that pratice martial arts, do this thing called sparring. that's where you face off against someone else, and you learn to either do what your training has taught you, or you get knocked on your rear. because being knocked on your rear hurts, you learn to do what you were trained for.how fun would a boxing match be if the punches didn't phase you? what value would learning a martial art be if being knocked down didn't hurt you? people would stop doing it. when there's no challenge, there's nothing to keep you trying to be better.in video games, those punches come in the form of a death penalty. that's when the game knocks you on your digital rear. as it stands right now, it doesn't mean anything. it doesn't hinder you, it doesn't even slow you down. which is why, once the 'new game shine' wears off, people simply leave. there's no reason to stay. there's noway to improve, there's nothing to challenge you.that's why there are tanks that literally don't know what body pulling is. that's why there are mages and scouts if you tell them to use thier deaggroes if they pull aggro from you, ask you what those are. that's why thier are priests that don't know they have debuff spells.there's simply no incentive to learn to use them. because if you die, who cares? it's only 2 minutes to be back at full fighting strength again. and that needs to change. the game world needs to be dangerous to our pixelated alter egos. I'm not asking for Eq1's level loss, or exp loss. what I want is for death to hurt again. I'd be happy if the 'rez sickness' actually crippled you for the 5 minutes that's it up. I'd be more happy if they returned things like spirit shards or Crs.hell, make so I have to kill 20 mobs to get out of the debt of a single death. something to make you not want to die, and to care about doing things that very well might get you killed. if death meant you were in bad shape for 5 minutes, you'd probably learn about things like body pulling and deaggroes and pacify because you would actually CARE if you died or not.</blockquote><p>I'm pretty sure you completely missed the point of that response.</p><p>SC</p>

[Devout Disciple]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>My current favorite tank is a Pally.</blockquote><p>If you play a pally sure you'll like a pally.  I speak against ones who don't play a crusader and choose to come here or on the chat channel in game, and beat up on crusaders. (I turned SK during KoS though)  In my opinion the pro-crusaders are outnumbered though and a prejudice exists on the Befallen chat channels.  Even a raid leader in the crusader thread on page 1 of this forum agrees there is no reason to take one on a raid.</p><p><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Main Toon since release is a Shadowknight have never stopped playing him, have raided in t-5,t-6.t-7.t-8. have MT'd and Ot'd Plenty of raids. (Nope never been a Guild leader or Officer in any of the raid guilds i was in, and Nope i dont play the political card,infact with my personalaity in guilds im suprised i don't get booted the first week/chuckle...so Easymode i dont know anything about it ; ) </p></blockquote><p>Then you at least understand a tank on the lower end DPS spectrum.  I still say make it harder for a certain class type though minus tanks.  If the dps want it so much harder then I say lay it on em and not tanks.  Just like the poster with dps in leather and a plate that is used for DPS on some Befallen groups.</p><p>You let slip in omission though when you talked about "no easy mode" though.  So do we agree DPS should have to be on their toes for once?  That DPS should have to be a certain level along what tanks have to be to enter a dungeon?  If not I guess we can agree to disagree.</p><p>Edit:  Did get to officer in a Mistmoore guild though and got to raid most in pre-DoF and very little in DoF.  That was torn about by betrayers seeking more raiding in another raiding guild.  The guild I'm in at the moment I'm possibly being...errr helping them aquire updates for quests that are helping them on their good stuff.</p><p>Edit: additional content</p>

[TheKreep]

<p>I said in an earlier post how it doesn't seem to take much skill anymore to drop a mob, they just boom. </p><p>I remember in the early game what CA I used..... if I debuffed.. when I tore a mob.. etc.. mattered... now blah</p><p>All I see is people posting the parser which means if I spend time debuffing I plummet down their precious list of usefulness.</p>

[Giral]

<cite>Devout Disciple wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>My current favorite tank is a Pally.</blockquote><p>If you play a pally sure you'll like a pally.  I speak against ones who don't play a crusader and choose to come here or on the chat channel in game, and beat up on crusaders. (I turned SK during KoS though)  In my opinion the pro-crusaders are outnumbered though and a prejudice exists on the Befallen chat channels.  Even a raid leader in the crusader thread on page 1 of this forum agrees there is no reason to take one on a raid.</p><p><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Main Toon since release is a Shadowknight have never stopped playing him, have raided in t-5,t-6.t-7.t-8. have MT'd and Ot'd Plenty of raids. (Nope never been a Guild leader or Officer in any of the raid guilds i was in, and Nope i dont play the political card,infact with my personalaity in guilds im suprised i don't get booted the first week/chuckle...so Easymode i dont know anything about it ; ) </p></blockquote><p>Then you at least understand a tank on the lower end DPS spectrum.  I still say make it harder for a certain class type though minus tanks.  If the dps want it so much harder then I say lay it on em and not tanks.  Just like the poster with dps in leather and a plate that is used for DPS on some Befallen groups.<span style="color: #ff0000;">  Grouping or Raiding? all around in rok yes Sk's dps is not where it should be but this is comon knowledge(atleast it is to the community if you've just returned then im sure you find out quick enough in rok ) and the Dps do have it harder depending on your group, if you have no agro transfers,if your healer dont heal mages or scouts that get agro : ) etc... Skilled DPS know how to put up big numbers and still control there agro . others that dont care if they get agro and are betting they can survive or blame the healer and tank = Suck. Good healers will let em die repeatedly and wont risk the group : ) </span></p><p>You let slip in omission though when you talked about "no easy mode" though.  So do we agree DPS should have to be on their toes for once?  That DPS should have to be a certain level along what tanks have to be to enter a dungeon?  If not I guess we can agree to disagree.<span style="color: #ff0000;">  yes using an sk is a challanging task , but i like the agro game(or atleast i did befor rok lol) , use to go run instances in what we called a Moy Macho group back in KOS and EOF, group was Defiler,Guard,SK,Paladin,Zerker,Monk  : ) the testosterone was so thick you could taste it, and we would tear thru zones like a pack of wild animals ripping agro of each other at everyturn(the Healer was Top notch /deep bow and luckily loved our crazy azzes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  secondly back in KOS and EOF(in regular groups)  i use to tell group members to turn off ANY agro transfers ,and then i would Tuant group members to TRY and rip agro, seldom was the occasion when i had someone in the group that could Rip it,and hold it and keep it on them,very seldom.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">          In rok in a pick up group if you have no agro transfer and you have a raid gear dps Fogetabout it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ......but even in ROk the DPS i group with know how to play , they learn there breaking point and work out in the group when and how to dps to still do great damage and still have minimal agro issue's, Pick-up groups for me arent realy an issue as im raid geared/mostly masterd and only if i get a raid dps in group will i have issue's(or some skilled non raiders but again they know how to control there dps/agro,or else they wouldnt be a cut above the normal pick ups that could not take agro even if they were tryin) but then again a raid geared dps  should know how to curb there dps to the group/situation and that is there responsibility,  Good Dps know how to work agro(and not make the tank look like a noob) an Bad dps think its all about /SPAM the Parse and if we all die repeatedly its everyone else fualt .   </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"> all i can say is until SK's get tweaks they need in rok is to group with friends, and make friends with people you group with that know how to play,and understand how to control there agro(well you should always do this lol,add good people to the friends list.then you dont need pick ups or atleast not as many lol&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />    Dps ripping/crusader hating Nubs  should just go to your ignore list , i dont know how geared you are,or your spell quality, but in rok you want to gear for as much dps/adpt3 and master asap and it will help some(if you can survive the hits lol, cuase itemization for Sk's in rok is the dirtiest toilet in norath(well besides the healer fiasco in rok for itemization lol)   </span></p><p>Edit:  Did get to officer in a Mistmoore guild though and got to raid most in pre-DoF and very little in DoF.  That was torn about by betrayers seeking more raiding in another raiding guild.  The guild I'm in at the moment I'm possibly being...errr helping them aquire updates for quests that are helping them on their good stuff. <span style="color: #ff0000;">threw in the officer/political thing to prevent the "You raid on an SK you must be a so and so /or have friends in high places etc,,_ i have been a leader/officer/etc, in some casual/alt guilds, and in another game, but never in a raiding guild, when i raid i dont need to worry about if bobby and nancy are upset over item they both wanted out of the guild bank , or if the dkp was recorded corectly,or if so and so thought an item was better for there class even tho they are already in negative dkp lol , im there to Raid , and only Raid.  the drama i leave to more interested people : ) </span></p><p>Edit: additional content</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">P.s. back in Pre-dof days Dps controlled agro better becuase  if they got agro they were usualy 1 shotted if a mage and 2 or 3 shotted if a rogue, healers wouldnt even heal em, and if you lost dps in a fight it could mean a wipe, and if you wiped it ment a shard run with the whole group having lesser stats to get back to where you died and it took longer to get back there becuase foghts took longer, so eveyone tried to play better, used there skills more, and Did not want to pull agro off the tank(and im talking about Zones that were above your level not zones that were blue/green) ....since there is no death penelty ,and no shards that might fall thru the world , add to that mages and scouts can take a few more hits now adays , and you have no fear, and no reason to control agro.... Except for respect for the group and tank, and if the dps dont respect the tank or group find another dps that has <a href="mailto:L@P" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">L2P</a> </span></p></blockquote>

[Vlahkmaak]

Looking for danger?  Looking for exctement?  Looking for someplace where death leaps out at you from every shadow when you least expect it or are least prepared for it?  Roll a toon on Veneko - PVP server, and for the love of everything roll a Q.

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>KvD ratio?People that don't die don't try. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>We were duoing in Sebilis last night. Only died twice.Don't talk to me about not taking risks.We take more risk than any group of 24 players.(We get less rewards too, btw)KvD is a good indication of game difficulty on an individiual basis, imo.Unless it's <b>you</b> that doesn't care about death - if you do care, then look at your stats and see whether you suck or not. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[liveja]

<cite>Devout Disciple wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>My current favorite tank is a Pally.</blockquote><p>If you play a pally sure you'll like a pally.</p></blockquote><p>I don't play a Pally. I play a Swashy.</p><p>However, the tank I've spent most of my time grouped with lately is a Pally. He's an <b>excellent</b> tank.</p><p>I've also raided with Pallies as MT & OT, & have seen them do just fine in both roles.</p>

[liveja]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>KvD ratio?People that don't die don't try. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>We were duoing in Sebilis last night. Only died twice.</p><p><b><span style="color: #009900;">Sebilis, IMO, is not exactly a dangerous zone to duo in, especially if you're level 80. </span></b></p><p>We take more risk than any group of 24 players.(We get less rewards too, btw)</p><p><b><span style="color: #009900;">Really? Just the other night, I spent 2 hours raiding with an allied guild, trying to help them get past the Brother/Sister duo in Kor-Sha. I don't know how many times we wiped, but I personally died 14 times. We never succeeded that evening. For my efforts, I got a repair bill of nearly a plat, no XP, & maybe 25 silvers total in loot. I'm willing to bet that if I'd spent that 2 hours with a guildie healer in Seb, we'd have gotten far more loot & XP, with fewer deaths. </span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #009900;">Your statement, IOW, is overly broad.</span></b>KvD is a good indication of game difficulty on an individiual basis, imo.</p><p><b><span style="color: #009900;">A good KvD ratio could mean that the person is very skilled, or it could mean the player never fights anything but wimpy green mobs. A bad KvD ratio could mean a raider whose guild is trying to learn new content & has been having a rough time lately, or it could mean a player that just flat-out sucks & doesn't know how to play.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #009900;">IOW, without knowing specific context, KvD is largely, or even wholly, meaningless.</span></b></p></blockquote><p>I do, however, completely agree with you that making the game more dangerous is something that can be done on an individual basis, rather than having the devs do it.</p><p>& just so you know: as a Swashy, the 2-second "casting time" on clickies, that forces me out of stealth, does not mean stealth is "broken"; it means people using stealth & invis have to be a lot more careful in doing things, rather than relying on the "I WIN" button that stealth/invis used to be. Do I wish I could still pick up clickies without breaking stealth? Sure I do. Does it radically hamper my game? Not in the least. People need to adapt & drive on.</p>

[LordPazuzu]

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Kill vs Death ratio? what does that have to do with anything. people that raid, have bad ratios, because we die 7-10 times a night on single raid encounters.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">A very valid point.</span>inconvience on other players? okay, how about they stop making me have to have the 'inconvience' of teaching people how to play thier classes in groups becuase they leveled to 80 solo in 2 weeks? Or how about the inconvience of being unable to do heroic quests at the levels they are intended for because grouping has become a waste of time?</p><p> <span style="color: #ff0000;">Yeh gods, I hear yah.  Also, if you're bringing someone new into the game, like a wife, girlfriend, etc-  Do them and the rest of the world a favor and teach them to play in a group setting and show them how the various systems in the game work- like AAs and the Broker window.  It blows my mind meeting level 80's who don't know how to play.... at all.</span></p><p>I play to enjoy myself, but I also play right now only because I have friends that still play. I'd probably be playing vanguard because that game actually supposedly has a challenge in it. death means something.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">No you wouldn't.  They nerfed that game to death in beta and finshed it off post launch.  EZ-mode all the way, just like every other game.</span>you're complaining about kvd ratios? I coudl give myself a perfect kvd ratio if I really wanted. it's not hard. you kill green and blue mobs for a few months. I don't PvP. PvP is a waste of time for me, because the game mechanics  cripple certain classes. you simply cannot design a game entirely for PvE, then throw a PvP system on top of it,  and have it be even remotely in the ballpark of fair.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Yeah, Kill vs. Death ratio is a hollow statistic. It is absolutely no indicator of player skill.</span>right now, scouts are the kings of PvP. and once enough complaints come in, some other group or class will be the 'top' of PvP. so to me, PvP is just as simple as rolling the 'flavor of the month' and dominating your opponents until the flavor changes.you shouldn't think of death as simply a 'poor man's evac' or even as just an 'oh darn.' thing. It should teach you to respect the game world. it should teach you that there are simply some things you can't do at the level you try them at, or that the same strategy doesn't work all the time, and it's not just 'oh, lets switch out the conjy for a brig and we're good'. When you die, you should lean back in your chair, hell, maybe even curse a bit, and revaluate what happened.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Yeah, I used to get back to the top of Sol Eye after turning in relic armor by hurling myself into the lava lake at the bottom.  Why? Because my call was down it was worth the repair cost to get back up top immediately.  There are no consequences for such action.</span>you shouldn't WANT to try and throw a level 53 wizard in just treasured gear and adept1 spells against a level 59 heroic mob, because you know you'll die, and you know it'll hurt when you do. a level 10 shouldn't even want to go to a level 20+ zone because death is going to be the order of the day.Death has to<i> hurt. </i>Or no one will care about dying. and if they don't care about dying, then there's no reason to learn to play a character, because who cares if it goes bad? it's only 3 gold and 1 mob worth of debt. your repaired and out of debt in 2 minutes. and the 'revive sickness' is a joke. it doesn't even weaken you enough to acknowledge it.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">/rant on</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Trying to get an instance done sometimes is painful.  Even at endgame people go hurling themselves through places without a care in the world.  I'm sitting there screaming things like , "Don't run past the tank!" or my personal favorite- "Pulling does not require a committee.  Please step back from the hallway of roaming social aggro and let me do my job."  I'm also partial to- "If I get stunned/mezzed/feared/rooted on the pull, please don't run up to engage- unless you don't mind wiping to all the adds your going to bring."  No one cares.  You just repop back at the entrance to the instance, rebuff, and keep going.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">/rant off</span>it's the same in the real world. people that are good at boxing learned that being hit hurts, and that's a bad thing. people that pratice martial arts, do this thing called sparring. that's where you face off against someone else, and you learn to either do what your training has taught you, or you get knocked on your rear. because being knocked on your rear hurts, you learn to do what you were trained for.how fun would a boxing match be if the punches didn't phase you? what value would learning a martial art be if being knocked down didn't hurt you? people would stop doing it. when there's no challenge, there's nothing to keep you trying to be better.in video games, those punches come in the form of a death penalty. that's when the game knocks you on your digital rear. as it stands right now, it doesn't mean anything. it doesn't hinder you, it doesn't even slow you down. which is why, once the 'new game shine' wears off, people simply leave. there's no reason to stay. there's noway to improve, there's nothing to challenge you.that's why there are tanks that literally don't know what body pulling is. that's why there are mages and scouts if you tell them to use thier deaggroes if they pull aggro from you, ask you what those are. that's why thier are priests that don't know they have debuff spells.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I ended up putting an 80 wizard on permanent ignore to avoid getting her in a pug again.  After explaining to her 4 times that you don't open up with your heaviest nuke on pull against the final named I finally gave up and abandoned finishing the instance. She never onced used a deaggro the whole zone and was constantly ganking aggro, even with all of my taunts, aggro procs, and the swashy feeding me hate.</span></p><p>there's simply no incentive to learn to use them. because if you die, who cares? it's only 2 minutes to be back at full fighting strength again. and that needs to change. the game world needs to be dangerous to our pixelated alter egos. <b>I'm not asking for Eq1's level loss, or exp loss</b>. what I want is for death to hurt again. I'd be happy if the 'rez sickness' actually crippled you for the 5 minutes that's it up. I'd be more happy if they returned things like spirit shards or Crs.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I am, but I'm like one of 5 people in the world that realizes or agrees with the value of such a penalty.</span>hell, make so I have to kill 20 mobs to get out of the debt of a single death. something to make you not want to die, and to care about doing things that very well might get you killed. if death meant you were in bad shape for 5 minutes, you'd probably learn about things like body pulling and deaggroes and pacify because you would actually CARE if you died or not.</p></blockquote>

[Brook]

<cite>Sulan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Kill vs Death ratio? what does that have to do with anything. people that raid, have bad ratios, because we die 7-10 times a night on single raid encounters.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">A very valid point.</span>inconvience on other players? okay, how about they stop making me have to have the 'inconvience' of teaching people how to play thier classes in groups becuase they leveled to 80 solo in 2 weeks? Or how about the inconvience of being unable to do heroic quests at the levels they are intended for because grouping has become a waste of time?</p><p> <span style="color: #ff0000;">Yeh gods, I hear yah.  Also, if you're bringing someone new into the game, like a wife, girlfriend, etc-  Do them and the rest of the world a favor and teach them to play in a group setting and show them how the various systems in the game work- like AAs and the Broker window.  It blows my mind meeting level 80's who don't know how to play.... at all.</span></p><p>I play to enjoy myself, but I also play right now only because I have friends that still play. I'd probably be playing vanguard because that game actually supposedly has a challenge in it. death means something.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">No you wouldn't.  They nerfed that game to death in beta and finshed it off post launch.  EZ-mode all the way, just like every other game.</span>you're complaining about kvd ratios? I coudl give myself a perfect kvd ratio if I really wanted. it's not hard. you kill green and blue mobs for a few months. I don't PvP. PvP is a waste of time for me, because the game mechanics  cripple certain classes. you simply cannot design a game entirely for PvE, then throw a PvP system on top of it,  and have it be even remotely in the ballpark of fair.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Yeah, Kill vs. Death ratio is a hollow statistic. It is absolutely no indicator of player skill.</span>right now, scouts are the kings of PvP. and once enough complaints come in, some other group or class will be the 'top' of PvP. so to me, PvP is just as simple as rolling the 'flavor of the month' and dominating your opponents until the flavor changes.you shouldn't think of death as simply a 'poor man's evac' or even as just an 'oh darn.' thing. It should teach you to respect the game world. it should teach you that there are simply some things you can't do at the level you try them at, or that the same strategy doesn't work all the time, and it's not just 'oh, lets switch out the conjy for a brig and we're good'. When you die, you should lean back in your chair, hell, maybe even curse a bit, and revaluate what happened.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Yeah, I used to get back to the top of Sol Eye after turning in relic armor by hurling myself into the lava lake at the bottom.  Why? Because my call was down it was worth the repair cost to get back up top immediately.  There are no consequences for such action.</span>you shouldn't WANT to try and throw a level 53 wizard in just treasured gear and adept1 spells against a level 59 heroic mob, because you know you'll die, and you know it'll hurt when you do. a level 10 shouldn't even want to go to a level 20+ zone because death is going to be the order of the day.Death has to<i> hurt. </i>Or no one will care about dying. and if they don't care about dying, then there's no reason to learn to play a character, because who cares if it goes bad? it's only 3 gold and 1 mob worth of debt. your repaired and out of debt in 2 minutes. and the 'revive sickness' is a joke. it doesn't even weaken you enough to acknowledge it.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">/rant on</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Trying to get an instance done sometimes is painful.  Even at endgame people go hurling themselves through places without a care in the world.  I'm sitting there screaming things like , "Don't run past the tank!" or my personal favorite- "Pulling does not require a committee.  Please step back from the hallway of roaming social aggro and let me do my job."  I'm also partial to- "If I get stunned/mezzed/feared/rooted on the pull, please don't run up to engage- unless you don't mind wiping to all the adds your going to bring."  No one cares.  You just repop back at the entrance to the instance, rebuff, and keep going.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">/rant off</span>it's the same in the real world. people that are good at boxing learned that being hit hurts, and that's a bad thing. people that pratice martial arts, do this thing called sparring. that's where you face off against someone else, and you learn to either do what your training has taught you, or you get knocked on your rear. because being knocked on your rear hurts, you learn to do what you were trained for.how fun would a boxing match be if the punches didn't phase you? what value would learning a martial art be if being knocked down didn't hurt you? people would stop doing it. when there's no challenge, there's nothing to keep you trying to be better.in video games, those punches come in the form of a death penalty. that's when the game knocks you on your digital rear. as it stands right now, it doesn't mean anything. it doesn't hinder you, it doesn't even slow you down. which is why, once the 'new game shine' wears off, people simply leave. there's no reason to stay. there's noway to improve, there's nothing to challenge you.that's why there are tanks that literally don't know what body pulling is. that's why there are mages and scouts if you tell them to use thier deaggroes if they pull aggro from you, ask you what those are. that's why thier are priests that don't know they have debuff spells.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I ended up putting an 80 wizard on permanent ignore to avoid getting her in a pug again.  After explaining to her 4 times that you don't open up with your heaviest nuke on pull against the final named I finally gave up and abandoned finishing the instance. She never onced used a deaggro the whole zone and was constantly ganking aggro, even with all of my taunts, aggro procs, and the swashy feeding me hate.</span></p><p>there's simply no incentive to learn to use them. because if you die, who cares? it's only 2 minutes to be back at full fighting strength again. and that needs to change. the game world needs to be dangerous to our pixelated alter egos. <b>I'm not asking for Eq1's level loss, or exp loss</b>. what I want is for death to hurt again. I'd be happy if the 'rez sickness' actually crippled you for the 5 minutes that's it up. I'd be more happy if they returned things like spirit shards or Crs.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I am, but I'm like one of 5 people in the world that realizes or agrees with the value of such a penalty.</span>hell, make so I have to kill 20 mobs to get out of the debt of a single death. something to make you not want to die, and to care about doing things that very well might get you killed. if death meant you were in bad shape for 5 minutes, you'd probably learn about things like body pulling and deaggroes and pacify because you would actually CARE if you died or not.</p></blockquote></blockquote><p>There are way more than 5 of us but alas we are still outnumbered.</p><p>SOE has to cater to the highest % of the playerbase to keep making money, it would be foolish for them not to. I agree with all of the above comments but what can we do?</p><p>I have tried to figure out something that would allow some of the older players that enjoyed things like shards, and challenge, and fear of loss, and about the only thing I can come up with is another server that uses the old ruleset, we cant very well ask for them to change what the majority wants at this point.</p><p>I cant complain that the game is not fun, they have done a wonderful job at making a great game, my biggest gripe is that when I used to look at someone riding a nice mount, or someone with a glowing weapon I respected what that person had done to get it, yea its just pixels and not real property, but it was a measure of someone who invested a lot of effort into those pixels, and it gave me goals to strive for.</p><p>Now, when I see the Mythical spam pop up I can only think, gee wonder how much that cost them? (meaning no disrespect to anyone) If thats your game and makes you happy, good for you.</p><p>I turned to pvp to try and find a bit of challenge and got my teeth kicked in numerous times, but it was still fun and I am learning. First thing I learned was that it is very unbalanced and I think SOE doesn't really care as they arnt fixing any of it, and they probably wont because the games bread and butter is PVE.</p>

[Airien]

<cite>Ravaan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry to say this but the casual gamer has nearly killed this genre. instead of playing Oblivion or any of the other thousands of RPGs out there they decided to play MMORPGs and dumb the genre into a MSPORPG (Massive Single Player online Role Playing game).</blockquote>I couldn't agree more with the general context of this comment. The [Removed for Content] of America has now leaked over to MMORPG's and companies are more or less forced to "dumb down" games in order to appeal to a larger player base because some of the other MMORPG companies began catering to the vocal majority within their respective forum communities.

[Airien]

<cite>Brook wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I cant complain that the game is not fun, they have done a wonderful job at making a great game, my biggest gripe is that when I used to look at someone riding a nice mount, or someone with a glowing weapon I respected what that person had done to get it, yea its just pixels and not real property, but it was a measure of someone who invested a lot of effort into those pixels, and it gave me goals to strive for.</p><p>Now, when I see the Mythical spam pop up I can only think, gee wonder how much that cost them? (meaning no disrespect to anyone) If thats your game and makes you happy, good for you.</p></blockquote>Took the words right out of my mouth. I'm not against games adding other forms of content that targets the casual player. What does bother me though is when players are handed things on par with the other players who spend the time and effort to acquire those items at great lengths. I've always been more of a casual player in my approach to gaming. However, I still feel that some players should be rewarded better considering the content and tasks that they accomplished.

[Calris]

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote>PvP</blockquote>Ditto.. turn on the PvP ruleset on all the PvE servers and I guarantee there will be 1000 new threads within an hour begging for the easy button back. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>No there wouldn't. Because there wouldn't be that many players left... That would be a good way to see if you can break the record on most accounts closed within an hour. It'd make Vanguard's population drop look like a good day.

[Calris]

<cite>Blacktusk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Qandor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It will not happen no matter how much we may wish the game to have an element of fear to it. Frankly, EQ2 never had that so nothing has been really lost. With the trend now apparent in modern MMO's it will be nothing but down hill from here. Seems modern gamers for the most part want to win, win, win and never lose. I still feel that if you can never lose, you can never truly win either.</p></blockquote>Oh, put a sock in it.The issue is that people want a game where the average gamer can play without pulling his hair out in frustration. There's hard content in there, yes, but the entire game shouldn't be reserved for only the elite.Just irks me to see the elitists whining with snide, patronizing remarks because the game is becoming more accessible to the average players.</blockquote>The problem is, that when you make the whole game "more accessable to the average players", it makes it was to easy for those of us who LIKE  a challenge.</blockquote>It's not like there isn't still content to challenge them. I'm sorry, but it's just selfish to advocate making the entire game as hard as possible just so a small ( Yeah, small ) subset of the player base can have their "challenge" every step of the way. Not everyone enjoys that. In fact, most people don't.

[therodge]

<cite>Airien wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brook wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>I cant complain that the game is not fun, they have done a wonderful job at making a great game, my biggest gripe is that when I used to look at someone riding a nice mount, or someone with a glowing weapon I respected what that person had done to get it, yea its just pixels and not real property, but it was a measure of someone who invested a lot of effort into those pixels, and it gave me goals to strive for.</p><p>Now, when I see the Mythical spam pop up I can only think, gee wonder how much that cost them? (meaning no disrespect to anyone) If thats your game and makes you happy, good for you.</p></blockquote>Took the words right out of my mouth. I'm not against games adding other forms of content that targets the casual player. What does bother me though is when players are handed things on par with the other players who spend the time and effort to acquire those items at great lengths. I've always been more of a casual player in my approach to gaming. However, I still feel that some players should be rewarded better considering the content and tasks that they accomplished. </blockquote>fact is what content and tasks did those who bought their mythicals (note they buy the updates from the guild that has the raidforce to do it) then those who didnt, i mean other then farming the 800-1000p to do so. fact is i see people get lucky and get a spot in a vp acess guild grab their mythical and run. now ask yourself did they deserve that? or even on the lighter side get acess to a vp guild and get your mythical, well guess what, they did the same thing someone who bought it did, they got a raid spot one way or another they got a raid spot. and fact is im not casual in the least and play a ton and guerentee as far as sheer time and effort  i have put more into my charichter then most raiders. but im not geared in raiding gear i dont have every single master,why? because i play at times were people arnt awake, my times are choppy and raid guilds cant do that. but i sure as hell can play my toon and play it well, and can play it better then some of the people who you think worked for their mythicals. so what do you concider "working for your mythical"  "earning your mythical"  if you mean sitting their and working a strat for every single mob to get your mythical. well guess what, their has been so much guild hopping that the majority of people having mythicals got them after their guild was finished with vp. they worked LESS HARD then those who bought it. and probobly are basking in the last 1000p guild splits from the idiots who bought it.

[liveja]

<cite>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm sorry, but it's just selfish to advocate making the entire game as hard as possible just so a small ( Yeah, small ) subset of the player base can have their "challenge" every step of the way.</blockquote><p>I agree, & I wouldn't want the *entire game* made that way. But can't we all agree there's some sort of middle ground? I think that's possible, at least.</p><p>If, for example, CoA & Vaults had their difficulty level ramped up a notch, that would make for an excellent start. But really, at this point, I'm sorta expecting that it's the next expansion I'm waiting for. & that's OK, because I've still got enough to keep me entertained until it comes out, & then, maybe the T8 grouping can really get moving.</p>

[Giral]

<cite>therodge wrote:</cite><blockquote>fact is what content and tasks did those who bought their mythicals (note they buy the updates from the guild that has the raidforce to do it) then those who didnt, i mean other then farming the 800-1000p to do so. fact is i see people get lucky and get a spot in a vp acess guild grab their mythical and run. now ask yourself did they deserve that? or even on the lighter side get acess to a vp guild and get your mythical, well guess what, they did the same thing someone who bought it did, they got a raid spot one way or another they got a raid spot. and fact is im not casual in the least and play a ton and guerentee as far as sheer time and effort  i have put more into my charichter then most raiders. but im not geared in raiding gear i dont have every single master,why? because i play at times were people arnt awake, my times are choppy and raid guilds cant do that. but i sure as hell can play my toon and play it well, and can play it better then some of the people who you think worked for their mythicals. so what do you concider "working for your mythical"  "earning your mythical"  if you mean sitting their and working a strat for every single mob to get your mythical. well guess what, their has been so much guild hopping that the majority of people having mythicals got them after their guild was finished with vp. they worked LESS HARD then those who bought it. and probobly are basking in the last 1000p guild splits from the idiots who bought it.</blockquote><p>people guild hoping or purchasing there Mythicals is a question of morals and ethics , since there are no rules against it people can assert that they aren't doing anything wrong . i know of one person that had limited raid time,they left a casual guild they were in for a hardcore guild(believe they were between projects at the time or on vacation <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />  got there mythical and then left the hardcore guild, how many people would do all that to aquire a mythical the cheep sleezy easy way ? not many and IMO it showed me the persons true character, others have Purchased there mythical ,meh if you ask them how they got it what can they say ? i paid for it . </p><p>in a game where people only know you for your ingame charcter's persona  to me your moral's and ethic's make you who you are in the game, will you use cheats,hacks,warps to beat encounters/names ? well if you used a hardcore guild who did the work to get there mythicals and you stepped in under false pretences that you were going to raid full time with them and then you get your mythical and leave it shows that your a selfish,self centered,person who will use others to further there own wants for a digital piece of pixels. </p><p>but people personalities realy dont have to do with the actual game rules/mechanic ....and the Vast majority of the poeple who have there mythicals earned them. </p>

[Airien]

<cite>therodge wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Airien wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brook wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>I cant complain that the game is not fun, they have done a wonderful job at making a great game, my biggest gripe is that when I used to look at someone riding a nice mount, or someone with a glowing weapon I respected what that person had done to get it, yea its just pixels and not real property, but it was a measure of someone who invested a lot of effort into those pixels, and it gave me goals to strive for.</p><p>Now, when I see the Mythical spam pop up I can only think, gee wonder how much that cost them? (meaning no disrespect to anyone) If thats your game and makes you happy, good for you.</p></blockquote>Took the words right out of my mouth. I'm not against games adding other forms of content that targets the casual player. What does bother me though is when players are handed things on par with the other players who spend the time and effort to acquire those items at great lengths. I've always been more of a casual player in my approach to gaming. However, I still feel that some players should be rewarded better considering the content and tasks that they accomplished. </blockquote>fact is what content and tasks did those who bought their mythicals (note they buy the updates from the guild that has the raidforce to do it) then those who didnt, i mean other then farming the 800-1000p to do so. fact is i see people get lucky and get a spot in a vp acess guild grab their mythical and run. now ask yourself did they deserve that? or even on the lighter side get acess to a vp guild and get your mythical, well guess what, they did the same thing someone who bought it did, they got a raid spot one way or another they got a raid spot. and fact is im not casual in the least and play a ton and guerentee as far as sheer time and effort  i have put more into my charichter then most raiders. but im not geared in raiding gear i dont have every single master,why? because i play at times were people arnt awake, my times are choppy and raid guilds cant do that. but i sure as hell can play my toon and play it well, and can play it better then some of the people who you think worked for their mythicals. so what do you concider "working for your mythical"  "earning your mythical"  if you mean sitting their and working a strat for every single mob to get your mythical. well guess what, their has been so much guild hopping that the majority of people having mythicals got them after their guild was finished with vp. they worked LESS HARD then those who bought it. and probobly are basking in the last 1000p guild splits from the idiots who bought it.</blockquote>Sorry if my post came across as targeting this game only. I was stating my opinion on the newer genre of MMORPG's in general who dumb games down to appease the "casual" crowd.  I've only been  playing EQ2 for about a month now so I really don't have much room to speak on end game content and how things are obtained in this game. What bothers me is the direction many MMORPG's are taking in which the "hardcore" crowd isn't rewarded any more than the casual player. Personally, I could care less if I spend 40+ hours a week raiding to get a certain piece of loot while someone can get a similar piece of loot thats on par with mine from simply crafting. I play to have FUN, not work a full time job. However, I still feel that those that do put in more time and effort should be rewarded accordingly rather than games being dumbed down so that the casual players who don't have the time to play as much as others, for whatever reasons, are handed things on par with some of the better loot because its the "fair" thing to do.

[liveja]

<cite>therodge wrote:</cite><blockquote>so what do you concider "working for your mythical"</blockquote><p>When I get my mythical, I'll know what it means to me, & what I did to "earn" it. I'm pretty sure you can answer the same question for yourself.</p><p>As for what anyone else did: I couldn't care less. I'm not them, they're not me, & so long as they didn't break any rules, it's none of my business.</p><p>I'd suggest it isn't any of yours, either, so why worry about it?</p>

[Spyderbite]

<cite>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>No there wouldn't. Because there wouldn't be that many players left... That would be a good way to see if you can break the record on most accounts closed within an hour. It'd make Vanguard's population drop look like a good day.</blockquote>*chuckles*Of course it would drive players off. But, you missed my point. People want it "Challenging" but not <b>too</b> "Challenging"."We want to break a sweat.. but there should be no chance of unexpected death or surprises" Was the quote I got while interviewing a player a couple years back. Another quote was "I want to feel like I accomplished something and receive the rewards I deserve... I only have 2 hours a week to play though".So where's the middle ground. My point was that by tossing people in to the most extreme environment that's currently available, they may appreciate what they've got right now a little bit more.Everything being complained about in this thread.. whether it be from a "its too easy" or "its too hard" angle.. is 10x more difficult on the PvP servers. The Journeyman tradeskill quests on the PvP servers take some finesse to finish for cripe's sake.Everytime somebody sais to me "I'm bored.. this is too easy" and I suggest "Well, come roll a character on Venekor.. I'll show you around". I get the same reply.. "*Gasp* No! I might die!"My point is.. there is no happy medium. No matter how easy or challenging they make the game you'll have people on one side demanding it get dumbed down and those on the other demanding it is made hard core. But, when people, who are already sitting on the easy side start asking for it to be made easier.. that's where I have to bang my head against the monitor and wonder.. "Just how close are we to the 'Click Here To Win EQ2' button on the launch pad".

[liveja]

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Of course it would drive players off. But, you missed my point. People want it "Challenging" but not <b>too</b> "Challenging".</blockquote><p>I want a challenging game. I don't want to spend my free time banging my head on the brick wall of gankers & griefers.</p><p>I spent 3 years on a PvP server, & quite frankly it was a total waste of time. I'll never do it again.</p>

[Spyderbite]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I want a challenging game. I don't want to spend my free time banging my head on the brick wall of gankers & griefers.<p>I spent 3 years on a PvP server, & quite frankly it was a total waste of time. I'll never do it again.</p></blockquote>I was intuitive I suppose, and managed to avoid most of the griefers and and gankers by avoiding the spots they hunted. But, meh, another subject completely.That was exactly my point though, Flaye.You have one guy who wants a 200% mount issued to every level one player upon character creation and another who wants Perma-Death. And, in between you have a spectrum of 100,000 different ideas about what is "challenging"I'm not suggesting PvP as an alternative. I was using it as an extreme example. This conversation, while interesting is moot. There will never be a middle ground. Ever. Unless you want to go in and work 12 hours for the guy who claims he only has 15 mins a week to play. XD

[Oh]

<p>This whole thread reminds me of the other topics on Lavastorm and Everfrost and how they should be nerfed. I think they are fine as zones, if anything I think the game could use a sprinkling of a few more like them. </p><p>As to me personally I think this game is just fine as it is, yea there are bugs but for difficulty level it's just fine. I like being able to reach an END to the game, unlike eq1 you never could reach the end. Some folks don't like that, some folks do. Cest la vive you can't please everyone all of the time.</p><p>Also I am completly burned out on PvP, I am sick to death of it. Although if folks want to pvp for more "challenge" more power to them. I wish them luck.</p>

[joeygopher]

<p>1) if you make things harder, you will get even less people willing to play in pick-up groups.  some folks still log straight away if their group has a single wipe.  nobody wants to tank groups any more because some people (particularly DPS classes) are so unforgiving.  there's a lot of snobbery in the game already, and you will just be left with the "leet kiddies".</p><p>2) if you make things harder, you force people to use min/max selection when building their group.  say goodbye to every tank other than warriors.  SoE have demonstrated their inability to balance the 24 classes properly.  the harder the content gets, the more this becomes apparent.</p><p>3) someone suggested upping the difficulty of VoES and CoA a few post back - these are meant to be "mid-tier" zones.  somewhere to go before you hit 80 that doesn't require you to grind out solo quests.  of course they are easy at 80 - in the same way Nest of the Great Egg was easy at 70.  Make these zones harder and people have nowhere to go until they reach the level cap.</p><p>4) if you increase the penalties for dying, people will not want to do anything that might risk their death.  no PUGs, no taking a "sub-prime" class, no taking toons that aren't already in raid gear.  a whole bunch of players are going to find themselves excluded from content by their peers.</p><p>what we actually need in this game is to encourage a culture where people are happy to take risks, are happy to group with people they don't know, are happy to take sub-optimal group set-ups.  a culture where people will step outside of the "this is how it must be done".  all of these things help to build an in-game community.  currently things have got so stagnant that they're starting to smell.  no wonder so many bailed for conan.</p>

[Spender]

<cite>joeygopher wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1) if you make things harder, you will get even less people willing to play in pick-up groups.  some folks still log straight away if their group has a single wipe.  nobody wants to tank groups any more because some people (particularly DPS classes) are so unforgiving.  there's a lot of snobbery in the game already, and you will just be left with the "leet kiddies".</p><p>2) if you make things harder, you force people to use min/max selection when building their group.  say goodbye to every tank other than warriors.  SoE have demonstrated their inability to balance the 24 classes properly.  the harder the content gets, the more this becomes apparent.</p><p>3) someone suggested upping the difficulty of VoES and CoA a few post back - these are meant to be "mid-tier" zones.  somewhere to go before you hit 80 that doesn't require you to grind out solo quests.  of course they are easy at 80 - in the same way Nest of the Great Egg was easy at 70.  Make these zones harder and people have nowhere to go until they reach the level cap.</p><p>4) if you increase the penalties for dying, people will not want to do anything that might risk their death.  no PUGs, no taking a "sub-prime" class, no taking toons that aren't already in raid gear.  a whole bunch of players are going to find themselves excluded from content by their peers.</p><p>what we actually need in this game is to encourage a culture where people are happy to take risks, are happy to group with people they don't know, are happy to take sub-optimal group set-ups.  a culture where people will step outside of the "this is how it must be done".  all of these things help to build an in-game community.  currently things have got so stagnant that they're starting to smell.  no wonder so many bailed for conan.</p></blockquote>Increased risk will create more of a desire to group not less of one.  As it stands now, no one really wants to group in EQ2 because they are doing just fine on their own.

[Calris]

Making it so you have to group to have a reasonable chance of getting anywhere will just create less desire to play for a lot of people.

[Dasein]

<cite>Spender wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>joeygopher wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1) if you make things harder, you will get even less people willing to play in pick-up groups.  some folks still log straight away if their group has a single wipe.  nobody wants to tank groups any more because some people (particularly DPS classes) are so unforgiving.  there's a lot of snobbery in the game already, and you will just be left with the "leet kiddies".</p><p>2) if you make things harder, you force people to use min/max selection when building their group.  say goodbye to every tank other than warriors.  SoE have demonstrated their inability to balance the 24 classes properly.  the harder the content gets, the more this becomes apparent.</p><p>3) someone suggested upping the difficulty of VoES and CoA a few post back - these are meant to be "mid-tier" zones.  somewhere to go before you hit 80 that doesn't require you to grind out solo quests.  of course they are easy at 80 - in the same way Nest of the Great Egg was easy at 70.  Make these zones harder and people have nowhere to go until they reach the level cap.</p><p>4) if you increase the penalties for dying, people will not want to do anything that might risk their death.  no PUGs, no taking a "sub-prime" class, no taking toons that aren't already in raid gear.  a whole bunch of players are going to find themselves excluded from content by their peers.</p><p>what we actually need in this game is to encourage a culture where people are happy to take risks, are happy to group with people they don't know, are happy to take sub-optimal group set-ups.  a culture where people will step outside of the "this is how it must be done".  all of these things help to build an in-game community.  currently things have got so stagnant that they're starting to smell.  no wonder so many bailed for conan.</p></blockquote>Increased risk will create more of a desire to group not less of one.  As it stands now, no one really wants to group in EQ2 because they are doing just fine on their own.</blockquote>I don't see why it would, unless you make soloing inherently more risky than grouping.

[joeygopher]

for some classes, and certainly for some players, soloing is already inherantly more dangerous than grouping.

[liveja]

<cite>joeygopher wrote:</cite><blockquote>for some classes, and certainly for some players, soloing is already inherantly more dangerous than grouping.</blockquote>Which classes would those be? Why is it more dangerous for them, than for others?

[Gromph]

<cite>joeygopher wrote:</cite><blockquote>for some classes, and certainly for some players, soloing is already inherantly more dangerous than grouping.</blockquote><p>I would say that it depends on the mobs you decide to combat.</p><p>My solo play is clearly more dangerous than the times I have been in a group. (So nowdays I only solo).</p><p>Furthermore, it depends on how you equip yourself. No upgrades and only quest items or MC/AD3 makes a difference.</p><p>So the level of risk is up to the player to decide.</p>

[Devout Disciple]

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><p>Edit: additional content</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">P.s. back in Pre-dof days Dps controlled agro better becuase  if they got agro they were usualy 1 shotted if a mage and 2 or 3 shotted if a rogue, healers wouldnt even heal em, and if you lost dps in a fight it could mean a wipe, and if you wiped it ment a shard run with the whole group having lesser stats to get back to where you died and it took longer to get back there becuase foghts took longer, so eveyone tried to play better, used there skills more, and Did not want to pull agro off the tank(and im talking about Zones that were above your level not zones that were blue/green) ....since there is no death penelty ,and no shards that might fall thru the world , add to that mages and scouts can take a few more hits now adays , and you have no fear, and no reason to control agro.... Except for respect for the group and tank, and if the dps dont respect the tank or group find another dps that has <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:L@P" target="_blank">L2P</a> </span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Yes DPS have it too easy nowadays.  I say make them have to switch flanks of attack or suffer a temporary diminishing returns if they're not actively getting hit.  With it resetting if they attacked another flank.  Let's see if they like having to move around or being in a certain position for a change.</p><p>I'm betting we'd see a stop to "make the game dangerous again" if that happened.  "Awww man my hands hurt!" hah!</p><p>Edit:  Well I should say they need to be more "interactive."</p><p><cite>Finora@Everfrost wrote:</cite> </p><blockquote><p>People should stop fooling themselves about the 'good old days' as well. EQ2 wasn't hard then, somewhat more tedious with the ragefire like annoying wait for some mobs, travel was slower but things certainly were not hard. I remember 3-4 manning the overland epic x2s in crappy gear. Back when mystic wards didn't work right, long before there were achievement points. I remember having zero trouble soloing even as a mystic (other than the fact it took a long time). I remember having no trouble running around duoing heriocs with my husband's tank, even named. We got a few fabled things off named we killed together in Feerrott and places like that. Nothing much different than people can do today. I ran around harvesting and doing my thing. </p><p>I highly agree with the person saying for some real challenge roll on a PVP server =) Then you have to worry about other players as well as the mobs you so look down your nose at. That should add some spice to the game if you find it lacking.</p></blockquote><p>See even someone else agrees the game was easier back then.  Definitely was for tanks as I said before.</p><p>As to not trying out pvp they don't want to because it would be <b>too</b> challenging or inconvience them through the time sink of losing money and items if they haven't banked.  Which <b>would </b>have a chance at satisfying their min-max craving. (Though I ever doubt that's possible)  No they would rather make the PVE servers misrable for all the non raid-geared folks.</p><p>Edit: Additional Content</p>

[Spyderbite]

<cite>Devout Disciple wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>No they would rather make the PVE servers misrable for all the non raid-geared folks.</p><p>Edit: Additional Content</p></blockquote>Actually, the raid gear is spec'd out for PvE advantages not PvP. Most people on a PvP server, who raid, carry two sets of equipment.. one for PvE and one for PvP. You actually have to put more thought in to your equipment and spell/CA upgrades than just "I've got the best".There's also more challenge in fighting. Can't just do the same combo that you know will drop a mob every time. Cause in PvP, that mob (another player(s) ) may just move or run or cast a cure.The point was.. on a PvP server you'll never experience the "I'm bored cause I've beaten everything" syndrome. You'll get smacked down frequently and its always a challenge to come back one day and defeat that person once you've adapted to their ever changing strategy.You can't do that on a PvE server.. because the mobs' strategy never changes.Edit:This last part isn't true.. if the Guides started assuming the roles of AI Mobs.. then you would have some challenge. However, that then becomes PvP.

[Poetelia]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When I get my mythical, I'll know what it means to me, & what I did to "earn" it. I'm pretty sure you can answer the same question for yourself.</p><p>As for what anyone else did: I couldn't care less. I'm not them, they're not me, & so long as they didn't break any rules, it's none of my business.</p><p>I'd suggest it isn't any of yours, either, so why worry about it?</p></blockquote><p>QFE. Ive been defending this same point for ages. Problem is for a lot of people this game is not really PvE, its a competition and the environment is a way to keep score. They not only need to get that piece of equipment... they need that piece of equipment to be rare, to be a symbol of status and the less peeps that have it, the better they feel.</p><p>And when they perceive, with more or less reasons, that the goal, the symbol of status is not hard enough to achieve and they cant brag all that much, they complain. They are not competing against the environment, they compete against us all. Thats why its so difficult to change the parameters of success in this game in particular and MMORPG's in general. A change of status quo could hurt a lot of feelings. Not mine for sure.</p><p>If I had my mythical and suddenly a guy next to me were visited by a GM and given a mythical just for being there, I can assure I wouldnt be the least bit annoyed. I would be if I were that guy, because the GM would rob me of my fun.</p>

[Razlath]

<p>You know I see a lot of people speaking for "a lot of others" or "the majority" or "everyone I know".  But never have we been given a choice.  And as soon as you produce forum post percentages, or chat channel experiences you get "well not everyone posts on the forums"  or "people won't speak up in chat channels cuz they are afraid of being flamed".</p><p>Personally I think the people willing to spend their time posting here, and willing to stand up for what they want in chat channels should be the driving force of a game.  Obviously what they want should not be produced carte blanche, but their opinions should be worth more than the person who can't be bothered to make suggestions to make the game better (in their opinions).</p><p>All that aside, back to my point of we have never been given a choice.  You could argue that Vanguard was a choice, but sadly it was being nerfed into easy mode during beta and only got easier post release.  So my suggestion would be to give the playerbase a choice.  Lets see how many really want a challenge and how many don't.  Make a server where all the mobs scale their hp / ability 1.5 or 2 (whatever it takes to make a 1 up [Removed for Content] near kill you solo and a triple up be a threat to a group).  Bring back death shards with each shard giving penalties equal to the current rez sickness (this would replace the current rez sickness), and group xp debt (within xp range only) combined with a real amount of debt, say 5% per death.  Put back in access quests for dungeons (not overland zones).  Add in some of the other suggestions in this thread that do not limit availability but do increase actual challenge.  And last but not least send the devs to a school that teaches the difference between time-sink fake difficulty and mob based actual difficulty.  A mob should be hard because it is there and kicks your butt not because you might be asleep when it finally pops (in all fairness they have been getting this somewhat right recently).</p><p>Turn that puppy on and don't allow any transfers.  Clean shiny new server.  See how many people go there, and after a while how many stay (cuz we all know it would be flooded at first for discos).  If it fails to keep a useable population then the people who say that "not enough want difficulty" are right.  If it succeeds then the ones who say "there is a market for difficulty" are right.  That is the only way you will get a true test, changing the game when there are no alternatives and saying "see people obviously like X cuz they are still playing" is not a valid test.  Yes some will say it is too difficult, but others will say it is not difficult enough.  Rewards should stay the same, if they scaled up you would just have an easy server again.  If you keep the mobs scaled on a percent increase over "normal" servers then you won't have to re-develop anything.</p><p>Give the players the choice, and the chance to prove that a game with some bite does in fact make for a great game.  Advertise the heck out of it, with 30 days free gameplay to that server specifically so that people can see what it is like similar to what you are doing with living legacy.  Let them see it isn't just the same ole same ole that they left because of there.  I personally think people would be very surprised at the play that server would get.  And in response to the expected no more servers cuz they are too low already argument (which is valid) open up free transfers to the compatible rulesset servers on the rest of the live servers if that server is not already at a designated population (very high or something).  I don't think server mergers are the answer, but letting the population shift itself around might be.</p><p>And PvP is NOT the answer.  I have been over that already, PvP was no more difficult than any other server.  It was no more difficult than playing while the roekilik event was up.  Randomly you get jumped by a yellow con "mob".  You either spank mob or you don't.  You move on.  Mob was only difficult if it was paper to your rock, or scissors to your paper, or rock to your scissors (or a scout and surprised you).  And of course the mob can bring friends, so now you need to make sure you do the same.  Nothing quite like full grouping solo quest lines...  PvP was ok, and the griefing was less than I have seen elsewhere (actually I only got griefed once, but I sort of asked for it), but it is a far cry from the challenge people are seeking or that it is being espoused as.  </p><p>Personally if alternate existing servers are the answer go play on test.  ;}  Very little decent gear on the broker, no one to buy your stuff so you can buy the decent gear that is on the broker.  No one to group with at your level (or any level for that matter) to get that gear on your own.  Just a world of very angry mobs and you.  But that is due solely to population levels and would be eliminated if enough people went there so still isn't a solution.</p>

[Brook]

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You know I see a lot of people speaking for "a lot of others" or "the majority" or "everyone I know".  But never have we been given a choice.  And as soon as you produce forum post percentages, or chat channel experiences you get "well not everyone posts on the forums"  or "people won't speak up in chat channels cuz they are afraid of being flamed".</p><p>Personally I think the people willing to spend their time posting here, and willing to stand up for what they want in chat channels should be the driving force of a game.  Obviously what they want should not be produced carte blanche, but their opinions should be worth more than the person who can't be bothered to make suggestions to make the game better (in their opinions).</p><p>All that aside, back to my point of we have never been given a choice.  You could argue that Vanguard was a choice, but sadly it was being nerfed into easy mode during beta and only got easier post release.  So my suggestion would be to give the playerbase a choice.  Lets see how many really want a challenge and how many don't.  Make a server where all the mobs scale their hp / ability 1.5 or 2 (whatever it takes to make a 1 up [I cannot control my vocabulary] near kill you solo and a triple up be a threat to a group).  Bring back death shards with each shard giving penalties equal to the current rez sickness (this would replace the current rez sickness), and group xp debt (within xp range only) combined with a real amount of debt, say 5% per death.  Put back in access quests for dungeons (not overland zones).  Add in some of the other suggestions in this thread that do not limit availability but do increase actual challenge.  And last but not least send the devs to a school that teaches the difference between time-sink fake difficulty and mob based actual difficulty.  A mob should be hard because it is there and kicks your butt not because you might be asleep when it finally pops (in all fairness they have been getting this somewhat right recently).</p><p>Turn that puppy on and don't allow any transfers.  Clean shiny new server.  See how many people go there, and after a while how many stay (cuz we all know it would be flooded at first for discos).  If it fails to keep a useable population then the people who say that "not enough want difficulty" are right.  If it succeeds then the ones who say "there is a market for difficulty" are right.  That is the only way you will get a true test, changing the game when there are no alternatives and saying "see people obviously like X cuz they are still playing" is not a valid test.  Yes some will say it is too difficult, but others will say it is not difficult enough.  Rewards should stay the same, if they scaled up you would just have an easy server again.  If you keep the mobs scaled on a percent increase over "normal" servers then you won't have to re-develop anything.</p><p>Give the players the choice, and the chance to prove that a game with some bite does in fact make for a great game.  Advertise the heck out of it, with 30 days free gameplay to that server specifically so that people can see what it is like similar to what you are doing with living legacy.  Let them see it isn't just the same ole same ole that they left because of there.  I personally think people would be very surprised at the play that server would get.  And in response to the expected no more servers cuz they are too low already argument (which is valid) open up free transfers to the compatible rulesset servers on the rest of the live servers if that server is not already at a designated population (very high or something).  I don't think server mergers are the answer, but letting the population shift itself around might be.</p><p>And PvP is NOT the answer.  I have been over that already, PvP was no more difficult than any other server.  It was no more difficult than playing while the roekilik event was up.  Randomly you get jumped by a yellow con "mob".  You either spank mob or you don't.  You move on.  Mob was only difficult if it was paper to your rock, or scissors to your paper, or rock to your scissors (or a scout and surprised you).  And of course the mob can bring friends, so now you need to make sure you do the same.  Nothing quite like full grouping solo quest lines...  PvP was ok, and the griefing was less than I have seen elsewhere (actually I only got griefed once, but I sort of asked for it), but it is a far cry from the challenge people are seeking or that it is being espoused as.  </p><p>Personally if alternate existing servers are the answer go play on test.  ;}  Very little decent gear on the broker, no one to buy your stuff so you can buy the decent gear that is on the broker.  No one to group with at your level (or any level for that matter) to get that gear on your own.  Just a world of very angry mobs and you.  But that is due solely to population levels and would be eliminated if enough people went there so still isn't a solution.</p></blockquote><p>I don't see what SOE has to loose in implementing such a server. They have the testcopy server that has a population of 2, (me included) when I sign on. I say wipe it, the equipment is already there, install the old ruleset on it and let us have fun, hell just leave some of the quirks there like the roaming torent in Stormhold that would wander the main hall, or the fish that would chase you across the zone. Believe it or not some of the buggs were actually fun.</p><p>The update that SOE removed the shards was a sad day for me, I didn't understand why it was done because SOE had finally fixed group debt to be more fair, and let us gather shards from dungeons at the door, then bam, they are gone.</p><p>They can use the test server for what it was intended so it doesn't disrupt the community there (they are some pretty nice folks). SOE has a server there already that shouldn't take more than a day or two to get up and running. </p><p>And if it isn't too much to ask, could we leave that other game out? There is no reason to have LON stuff on The Ancients Server</p>

[Dasein]

<cite>Brook wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I don't see what SOE has to loose in implementing such a server. </blockquote>Implementing any alternate mechanics server means every patch, update and expansion has to be designed and tested against that server, in addition to the regular servers and PvP servers. This means longer development times, fewer fixes and overall more bugs because finite resources have to be split over more tasks.

[Oh]

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You know I see a lot of people speaking for "a lot of others" or "the majority" or "everyone I know".  But never have we been given a choice.  And as soon as you produce forum post percentages, or chat channel experiences you get "well not everyone posts on the forums"  or "people won't speak up in chat channels cuz they are afraid of being flamed".</p><p>Personally I think the people willing to spend their time posting here, and willing to stand up for what they want in chat channels should be the driving force of a game.  Obviously what they want should not be produced carte blanche, but their opinions should be worth more than the person who can't be bothered to make suggestions to make the game better (in their opinions).</p><p>All that aside, back to my point of we have never been given a choice.  You could argue that Vanguard was a choice, but sadly it was being nerfed into easy mode during beta and only got easier post release.  So my suggestion would be to give the playerbase a choice.  Lets see how many really want a challenge and how many don't.  Make a server where all the mobs scale their hp / ability 1.5 or 2 (whatever it takes to make a 1 up [I cannot control my vocabulary] near kill you solo and a triple up be a threat to a group).  Bring back death shards with each shard giving penalties equal to the current rez sickness (this would replace the current rez sickness), and group xp debt (within xp range only) combined with a real amount of debt, say 5% per death.  Put back in access quests for dungeons (not overland zones).  Add in some of the other suggestions in this thread that do not limit availability but do increase actual challenge.  And last but not least send the devs to a school that teaches the difference between time-sink fake difficulty and mob based actual difficulty.  A mob should be hard because it is there and kicks your butt not because you might be asleep when it finally pops (in all fairness they have been getting this somewhat right recently).</p><p>Turn that puppy on and don't allow any transfers.  Clean shiny new server.  See how many people go there, and after a while how many stay (cuz we all know it would be flooded at first for discos).  If it fails to keep a useable population then the people who say that "not enough want difficulty" are right.  If it succeeds then the ones who say "there is a market for difficulty" are right.  That is the only way you will get a true test, changing the game when there are no alternatives and saying "see people obviously like X cuz they are still playing" is not a valid test.  Yes some will say it is too difficult, but others will say it is not difficult enough.  Rewards should stay the same, if they scaled up you would just have an easy server again.  If you keep the mobs scaled on a percent increase over "normal" servers then you won't have to re-develop anything.</p><p>Give the players the choice, and the chance to prove that a game with some bite does in fact make for a great game.  Advertise the heck out of it, with 30 days free gameplay to that server specifically so that people can see what it is like similar to what you are doing with living legacy.  Let them see it isn't just the same ole same ole that they left because of there.  I personally think people would be very surprised at the play that server would get.  And in response to the expected no more servers cuz they are too low already argument (which is valid) open up free transfers to the compatible rulesset servers on the rest of the live servers if that server is not already at a designated population (very high or something).  I don't think server mergers are the answer, but letting the population shift itself around might be.</p><p>And PvP is NOT the answer.  I have been over that already, PvP was no more difficult than any other server.  It was no more difficult than playing while the roekilik event was up.  Randomly you get jumped by a yellow con "mob".  You either spank mob or you don't.  You move on.  Mob was only difficult if it was paper to your rock, or scissors to your paper, or rock to your scissors (or a scout and surprised you).  And of course the mob can bring friends, so now you need to make sure you do the same.  Nothing quite like full grouping solo quest lines...  PvP was ok, and the griefing was less than I have seen elsewhere (actually I only got griefed once, but I sort of asked for it), but it is a far cry from the challenge people are seeking or that it is being espoused as.  </p><p>Personally if alternate existing servers are the answer go play on test.  ;}  Very little decent gear on the broker, no one to buy your stuff so you can buy the decent gear that is on the broker.  No one to group with at your level (or any level for that matter) to get that gear on your own.  Just a world of very angry mobs and you.  But that is due solely to population levels and would be eliminated if enough people went there so still isn't a solution.</p></blockquote><p>I see your points but I completly disagree. If you think "pvp" is "easy" mode, please post that stuff on the pvp forms or better yet go play some pvp in this game. It does have some inheirant challange to it. NOW is this the challenge that folks want, that is a great question and I think your right that is not the kind of "hard" folks want that are posting in this thread.</p><p>Folks want it to be hard but not too hard, cause they want some chance to win on a reguarl basis if they aren't asleep at the keyboard. More Hitpoints doesn't make a mob more challenging it just makes the fight longer, upping the dps of a mob doesn't make a mob more challening it just means you need to mitigate that damage somehow. Making the mob more resilliant to spells doesn't make it more challenging, just means you are segragating a selection of the populous from being able to actually damage it. CHANGING the AI of each and every mob does add in "some" challenge until folks learn that new script and then it becomes the same old same old. Fortunatly or NOT putting soo much ai into so many mobs would basically mean no new expansions for us for a very long time. That would kill SoE and mostlikely kill this game.</p><p>As it is now there is a fairly large number of folks crying that Lavastorm and everfrost are too "hard", I just don't see how SoE could even be bothered to make a "hard" server when what is in the game is being called to be nerfed. It's not worth their precious development time, it's not worth the money for the servers, it's not worth the effort period IMO.</p><p>Also the point you make about folks posting in these forums, frankly IMO all we should be doing is giving suggestions at best NEVER take us for face value I know most of us have really really badly points of view and if those changes were made per our suggestion it would really be bad for a different segment of the population. A simple example there is/was a thread on the next expansion better be aimed for level 80 full group content, well off the top there is nothing there for raiders, what about the small group populous they deserve some content also. Granted the solo person got alot of content already but a small bone to them wouldn't hurt when your poping out a bunch of new content. This is just one example I am sure there are alot of others.</p><p>edit: man sorry keep missing points.</p><p>If folks want a "challenge" with the existing system why not try and level without MC gear and without making AD3 spells. OMG do it the "hard" way for once. Heck my warlock alt is just running on AP4's and I'm not having any issues with him. THe TD gear was soo freaking good I kept it till level 42 when I got new MC gear and heck I'm not replacing that MC gear till I get quest rewards in KP+. This character leveled alot on just quest rewards cause at the time I couldn't afford better. SO there are simple ways to make things more challenging if you so choose to do that.</p>

[Razlath]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brook wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I don't see what SOE has to loose in implementing such a server. </blockquote>Implementing any alternate mechanics server means every patch, update and expansion has to be designed and tested against that server, in addition to the regular servers and PvP servers. This means longer development times, fewer fixes and overall more bugs because finite resources have to be split over more tasks.</blockquote><p>Dasein is exactly correct.  My thoughts were that maybe many of these features are still hanging around in the code just not "enabled"  Like shars and whatnot.  If they could be enabled easily enough maybe it could be done.  Yet another reason why I said no different gear.  So the game would work fundamentally almost identical to a normal live server with the exception of mob HP / ability damage values (should be database based so no extra test / development), some of the "feature" flags enabled (such as xp shards, and group xp debt), and an increase in amount of debt per death (should also be database based).</p><p>But no matter how low footprint you make it there will still be a footprint.  But until someone decides to build it, we will never know if people would actually play it or not.  Just for sheer future MMO Research and Development I think SoE might have something to gain by trying.  But I also freely admit that likelyhood of that happening is most likely exactly equal to me winning the lottery.  ;}</p>

[Razlath]

<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I see your points but I completly disagree. If you think "pvp" is "easy" mode, please post that stuff on the pvp forms or better yet go play some pvp in this game. It does have some inheirant challange to it. NOW is this the challenge that folks want, that is a great question and I think your right. </p></blockquote><p>Have played PvP in this game, my statements stand based on my experience.  Maybe it is hard for you, but it sure as heck wasn't for me.  It was mildly entertaining and no more so (either hard or entertaining) than a normal server.</p><blockquote><p>Folks want it to be hard but not too hard, cause they want some chance to win on a reguarl basis if they aren't asleep at the keyboard. More Hitpoints doesn't make a mob more challenging it just makes the fight longer, upping the dps of a mob doesn't make a mob more challening it just means you need to mitigate that damage somehow. Making the mob more resilliant to spells doesn't make it more challenging, just means you are segragating a selection of the populous from being able to actually damage it. CHANGING the AI of each and every mob does add in "some" challenge until folks learn that new script and then it becomes the same old same old. Fortunatly or NOT putting soo much ai into so many mobs would basically mean no new expansions for us for a very long time. That would kill SoE and mostlikely kill this game. </p></blockquote><p>Actually all of those things do in fact make a mob more difficult, and when combined make it quite a bit more difficult.  All of the things you list as "all you have to" are called playing the game.  So the mob does more damage, mitigate it or out dps it or die.  So the mob mitigates more, do more damage or mitigate what it does better or die.  By your arguments a heroic mob is no more difficult to solo than a solo mob which is simply not true (most are just scaled up versions of normal mobs).  The mob with 50k hp that does 500dps is a lot more dangerous and thus challenging than the mob that has 25k hp and does 250dps.  The trick is in finding the right scale up that makes it so that a 1 up mob actually challenges a solo player and a triple up actually challenges a group at even cons.  Once you find that scale multiplier you are set for a quick upgrade in difficulty across the board without touching a shred of custom code if mob stats are stored in a database with server specific entries (or server specific databases).</p><p>You don't need scripts to increase the difficulty of the mobs (though it might help).  If you had all the money in the world, custom scripts might be ok, but you can accomplish a lot just by making the mobs harder to kill.  Getting them back to their proper designations (through mob buffs) would help a lot with that.  RoK is tougher than previous becuase the mobs are harder to kill before they kill you.  Therefore mobs in RoK are more challenging.  Their scripts can make them more annoying on occasions, and definitely make them a little more tricky, but even without their caster scripts they would be more challenging than previous mobs.</p><blockquote>As it is now there is a fairly large number of folks crying that Lavastorm and everfrost are too "hard", I just don't see how SoE could even be bothered to make a "hard" server when what is in the game is being called to be nerfed. It's not worth their precious development time, it's not worth the money for the servers, it's not worth the effort period IMO.</blockquote><p>Every game will always be called to be nerfed.  I would be willing to bet there are threads asking for stuff to be nerfed in WoW cuz it is too hard.  The guy who can't find a perfect group in 5 minutes will cry that there are no groups, and the guy that can't find a healer in 2 seconds for their last slot will cry no healers in game.  Those cries have little basis on reality, or on the experience of anyone else, and yet they make them as much as they want and sometimes the devs listen.  When someone walks solo into lavastorm and gets their butt handed to them because they can't solo heroics they will call nerf.  You can't stop that and if that is the only reason not to make a hard server then I vote for Spyder's "I win button" at game launch and call it a day because if you make things easier every time someone calls nerf there won't be a game left.  Frankly Pre-70 is dangerously close to that anyway.</p><p>There is a fairly large number of players asking for more challenging content as well.  We will never know how things would stack up until someone builds the same game on two different settings and see where things lie.  Sadly this means this debate will probably never be answered, but that doesn't make it any less valid or interesting.</p><p>Now, maintenance most likely makes such an idea un-feasible and I freely admit that.  It probably isn't worth SoE's time to make something like this, but that doesn't automatically not make it worth my time to suggest it / talk about it.  If I only asked for what I was sure to get I would never get anything.  And don't kid yourself, the nerf everything crowd has no problem asking for what they won't likely get until they do.</p><p>It also isn't necessarily the resource drain that people think it might be, but a lot of that depends on how things are coded, and how much stuff is stored in server specific database entries / server specific databases.  Obviously I can't speak to specifics of that so I won't even try.  All I can say is it is possible, and it is possible with a fairly low footprint, but it may not be possible / pluasible for EQ2.</p>

[Razlath]

<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Also the point you make about folks posting in these forums, frankly IMO all we should be doing is giving suggestions at best NEVER take us for face value I know most of us have really really badly points of view and if those changes were made per our suggestion it would really be bad for a different segment of the population. A simple example there is/was a thread on the next expansion better be aimed for level 80 full group content, well off the top there is nothing there for raiders, what about the small group populous they deserve some content also. Granted the solo person got alot of content already but a small bone to them wouldn't hurt when your poping out a bunch of new content. This is just one example I am sure there are alot of others.</p></blockquote><p>Which is why I say they should be taken as a greater weight, but still should not be implemented carte blanche.  To your specific example, there are just as many arguing the other way in those threads.  I am saying when you have a clear majority in the forums / chat channles one way or the other, it is in fact something that should be seriously considered.  I don't agree with all the changes the majority enspouse, many of which have been implemented.  However, I have also seen things implemented that were nearly completely shot down when posted on these forums.  The logic given?  People really wanted it, they just wouldn't say so.  Personally if you want something step up and speak up.  If you don't have the gumption to do so then you must not have really wanted it.</p><blockquote><p>edit: man sorry keep missing points. </p></blockquote><p>No worries, my posts tend to be long winded.  ;}  You raise valid and interesting counter-points / concerns, and you raise them intelligently, no need for apologies to me.</p><blockquote>If folks want a "challenge" with the existing system why not try and level without MC gear and without making AD3 spells. OMG do it the "hard" way for once. Heck my warlock alt is just running on AP4's and I'm not having any issues with him. THe TD gear was soo freaking good I kept it till level 42 when I got new MC gear and heck I'm not replacing that MC gear till I get quest rewards in KP+. This character leveled alot on just quest rewards cause at the time I couldn't afford better. SO there are simple ways to make things more challenging if you so choose to do that.</blockquote>Now see this I will have to 100% disagree with you on.  To say that in order to make a game actual be a challenge I have to only play half the game is a horrible plan.  If that is the solution that SoE truly takes they will see quite a few people who want challenge walk.  I play the game to have fun which is the same as being challenged.  I also play to advance my character to the highest point I can.  To ask me to "[Removed for Content]" my character back is directly counter to one of the main reasons I play the game.  That being said, I don't level in MC gear, and I don't twink my alts.  Every coin on every one of my characters is earned by that character.  And I never buy MC gear until 52.  On my brigand I never upgraded a single spell (except tier 3 I think when my wife wanted the first time combine xp on her jewler for my spells) unless it dropped (yes this means app1 for most of my spells).  I have however used MC poisons (purchased from broker) since they were available.  I was entirely in quest gear unless I harvested the rare myself or got the drop in a group, and then I paid my armorer 2 rares to make one piece of armor because that is the equivalent of the price it would have cost me to buy it from the broker but without the wait.  I actually could have gotten it cheaper if I had been willing to look for a blacksmith LFW.  The game is still ridiculously easy, and I can't wait to get to Kunark where the mobs will actually be a challenge again (and hopefully wipe the floor with me once or twice).

[Oh]

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Have played PvP in this game, my statements stand based on my experience.  Maybe it is hard for you, but it sure as heck wasn't for me.  It was mildly entertaining and no more so (either hard or entertaining) than a normal server.</p></blockquote><p>THen you weren't at level cap, playing an overpowered class, or maybe you were fighting idiots. Inheirantly folks will do things differently when faced with failure a few times over. Atleast those with a brain that chooses to use it. Now getting steamrolled by a group isn't what I call challenging but that is also in this game too.</p><p><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Actually all of those things do in fact make a mob more difficult, and when combined make it quite a bit more difficult.  All of the things you list as "all you have to" are called playing the game.  So the mob does more damage, mitigate it or out dps it or die.  So the mob mitigates more, do more damage or mitigate what it does better or die.  <b>By your arguments a heroic mob is no more difficult to solo than a solo mob</b> which is simply not true (most are just scaled up versions of normal mobs).  The mob with 50k hp that does 500dps is a lot more dangerous and thus challenging than the mob that has 25k hp and does 250dps.  The trick is in finding the right scale up that makes it so that a 1 up mob actually challenges a solo player and a triple up actually challenges a group at even cons.  Once you find that scale multiplier you are set for a quick upgrade in difficulty across the board without touching a shred of custom code if mob stats are stored in a database with server specific entries (or server specific databases).</p><p>You don't need scripts to increase the difficulty of the mobs (though it might help).  If you had all the money in the world, custom scripts might be ok, but you can accomplish a lot just by making the mobs harder to kill.  Getting them back to their proper designations (through mob buffs) would help a lot with that.  RoK is tougher than previous becuase the mobs are harder to kill before they kill you.  Therefore mobs in RoK are more challenging.  Their scripts can make them more annoying on occasions, and definitely make them a little more tricky, but even without their caster scripts they would be more challenging than previous mobs.</p></blockquote><p>Actually that is my arguement, a Heroic mob is just as "difficult" as a solo mob. This doesn't mean it's soloable I am just saying that the amount of thought going into fighting a heroic mob is the EXACT same as fighting a solo mob. This is why I am going into the logic of the mobs. WHAT you are wanting is just to tweak the mobs into being more sturdy not really harder, just able to withstand a bit more and give out a bit more damage. In the end it will still be "soloable" so really I don't see it as being "harder". Again I think we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't call that harder, you do. cest la vive.</p><p><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Every game will always be called to be nerfed.  I would be willing to bet there are threads asking for stuff to be nerfed in WoW cuz it is too hard.  The guy who can't find a perfect group in 5 minutes will cry that there are no groups, and the guy that can't find a healer in 2 seconds for their last slot will cry no healers in game.  Those cries have little basis on reality, or on the experience of anyone else, and yet they make them as much as they want and sometimes the devs listen.  When someone walks solo into lavastorm and gets their butt handed to them because they can't solo heroics they will call nerf.  You can't stop that and if that is the only reason not to make a hard server then I vote for Spyder's "I win button" at game launch and call it a day because if you make things easier every time someone calls nerf there won't be a game left.  Frankly Pre-70 is dangerously close to that anyway.</p><p>There is a fairly large number of players asking for more challenging content as well.  We will never know how things would stack up until someone builds the same game on two different settings and see where things lie.  Sadly this means this debate will probably never be answered, but that doesn't make it any less valid or interesting.</p><p>Now, maintenance most likely makes such an idea un-feasible and I freely admit that.  It probably isn't worth SoE's time to make something like this, but that doesn't automatically not make it worth my time to suggest it / talk about it.  If I only asked for what I was sure to get I would never get anything.  And don't kid yourself, the nerf everything crowd has no problem asking for what they won't likely get until they do.</p><p>It also isn't necessarily the resource drain that people think it might be, but a lot of that depends on how things are coded, and how much stuff is stored in server specific database entries / server specific databases.  Obviously I can't speak to specifics of that so I won't even try.  All I can say is it is possible, and it is possible with a fairly low footprint, but it may not be possible / pluasible for EQ2.</p></blockquote><p>Please do Keep voiceing your suggestions and thoughts. My post isn't trying to stop that, just giving a different point of view is all. You are 100% correct without vocalising our thoughts and opions then nothing will change. I just don't think that all of the suggestions given are actually worth the effort. That is me.</p><p>As to the point you think SoE/gaming community could learn from making a server that is harder. I actually disagree, there are situations like that now in other games heck even in eq2 and they are all taking the path of making it "easier". The why is usually based so that they can get more folks into their games atleast that is the current theory that i've heard that seems some what pausable.</p>

[Razlath]

Just a note on difficulty, to me difficulty is determined by the chance that the mob will kill you before you kill it, and the possibility of you avoiding this due to correct timing of abilities (ie skill).  This definition of difficulty can be altered based on mob's innate HP / ability damage / mitigation, etc.  I also think all difficulty must be evaluated at the even con level.  Above or below gets dicey one way or the other as far as judging difficulty.  It must also be evaluated for the intended audiance.  IE solo mobs should be looked at from the solo perspective and group mobs from the group perspective.  <p><cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Please do Keep voiceing your suggestions and thoughts. My post isn't trying to stop that, just giving a different point of view is all. You are 100% correct without vocalising our thoughts and opions then nothing will change. I just don't think that all of the suggestions given are actually worth the effort. That is me.</p></blockquote><p>And me!  Trust me I don't think much of what is suggested here is great as it stands, and much of what is left wouldn't even be good once polished (and yes I include some of the hairbrained things I have come up with in that as well).  It is good to chat about some of this stuff with someone who doesn't feel the need to call names or blelabor the same point trying to convince the other of the dieficly inspired thought process.</p><blockquote>As to the point you think SoE/gaming community could learn from making a server that is harder. I actually disagree, there are situations like that now in other games heck even in eq2 and they are all taking the path of making it "easier". The why is usually based so that they can get more folks into their games atleast that is the current theory that i've heard that seems some what pausable.</blockquote><p>Ahh but are the doing it because they look at WoW and go.  "That game is easier therefore we must make our game easier to compete."  If so, then why hasn't it worked?  Games have released with mechanics just as easy as WoW, and more have evolved to be just as easy.  Maybe it is something else that makes WoW successful and has nothing to do with game difficulty?  Maybe it is truly the difficulty and there is no explanation why no one else has been able to match them.  Maybe it is marketing, or a progressive end game, or blizzard's slow release cycle on new content to ensure it is nearly bug free?</p><p>The same applys to RoK.  Did it sell well because it was harder (based on chances of mob killing you before you killed it) or because of the solo quest lines?  Did it do poorly because the instances are all at end game or because people don't like lizard-men?  SoE has their work cut out for them deciding what makes a great game.  I hope they are still interested enough to try some things out to see.  </p><p>Of course maybe an even easier method would be an in-game poll that pops up when you log in.  It would obviously have to have a "decline this poll" button to avoid skewed results.  I am sure there are even better ideas of what they can do out there.  But for the future of this genre I hope they do something.</p>

[Yimway]

The simple best thing that could be done for difficulty scaling is to improve the mob UI.Have the mob use the level appropriate skills at adept1 or better level.  Have it use things more intelligently, ie stuns, cast orders, and general tactics.  I've never had a level 80 mob use any of its class specific abilities on me.  Change the majority of the mobs from guardian to a more interesting class type.  Seems 90% of the content just autoattacks and casts confound on me.  Things could certainly be much, much more challenging than this.Force me to time my stuns appropriately, etc.Lastly, I'ld like the combat system to be able to take in account terrain in a more significant manner.  Mobs hitting me at range should need line of sight to do so, so ducking behind a wall would force a ranged mob to move closer.  I very much liked this mechanic in LOTRO, though it was probably the only thing I liked there.

[Giral]

<p>Ohiv said : </p><p>As to the point you think SoE/gaming community could learn from making a server that is harder. I actually disagree, there are situations like that now in other games heck even in eq2 and they are all taking the path of making it "easier". The why is usually based so that they can get more folks into their games atleast that is the current theory that i've heard that seems some what pausable.</p><p>dont think many people have an issue with making the low level game easier to get into,but the issue arizes when the game never gets any more challanging/difficult becuase of it.  if level 65 plays the same as level 35 then ? </p><p>whats the point of experiance/levels/aa's ? of better more powerful skills? of getting many new skills ? of leveling up? of going to new zones?       "just the guaranteed loot" </p><p> in console gaming(Normaly) things progressivly get harder everytime you pass a zone/gain a level/etc... but in eq2 it doesnt scale up, every 10 levels the game should take on a new level of difficulty, by level 80 mobs should be using various tactics/technics/skill sets against you.  and you should have been learning how to counter these in the last 79 levels of the game , each 10 level period was slowly intoducing more of a challange over the course of leveling in that range . </p><p>lets say at level 10 , mobs do basic CA/Nuke </p><p>level 20 mobs use  CA/Nuke/Special </p><p>level 30 mobs use a few CA/Nukes/Specials</p><p>leel 40 mobs use alot of Ca.Nukes/racial ability/rare mobs use special attacks</p><p>level 50 mobs use all there Ca/nukes/class abilty/some racial abilities/some mobs use special attacks</p><p>level 60 All Ca/Nukes/class ability/racial/special attacks from most mobs/use Skills from the first branch of AA trees for there class </p><p>levl 70 All the above + AA's from any of the SUbclass AA branch but only in the first 3 of each branch (anything from 4th to endline not avialable) </p><p>lvl 80 all the above can use any ability from the subclass AA line+endline abilities </p><p>level 90 everything + can use skills from 1 full branch in clas sspecific AA line, some mobs will be able to use Specials of ther own and 1 special from there  opposite class type : Ex = Guard could use a Zerker ability , Zerker could use a guard one(the mobs not you <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) </p><p>One thing that is Constently expressed by Casual and Harcore alike is that people dont want tedious/needless timesinks, i have seen Many casual people all for more Engaging / Creative / Challanging content ... people dont just want to see "Mob X has Way more HP or way more Power then normal "  they want Unrest type zones, Fun/Creative/Some challanging aspects(not for all, but as an example of the first day it went live) and engaging,slow slow moving mobs, storyline in it,the Doppleganger part is realy creative in you never know what person in group it will be or what type of Class you'll be facing (and in some casses having a real time on a class you thought would die easy : ) </p><p>Tier the game Make it realy easy to get into, make leveling mean something with the mobs/content/skills you learn and skills mobs learn as you level ,   have a tutorial for people who wish every 10 levels explaining there NEW skill/ability they aquire (TOGGLEABLE of course /wink ). slowly increase the mobs from level 31 to 39 in there use of the abilities so people get use to it over the course of 10 levels </p><p>better level design,better Leveling experiance/learning as you go/ and more engaging encounters the higher you go , forever the game would get harder as you level, more challanging, always something ahead, and you would learn your skills, see why you need them(most people who get to 80 in a month or so without tryin never even use  1/2 of there skills and dont even know what they do =bad design) </p><p>lol will never happen in eq2, but possibly a future mmo will take leveling as the important part/the skills/abilities you get/use and put them to use so you learn how to use them and when, and you would have  alot more knowledgable people playing there characters thru a game long learning experiance . and there would always be more stuff to learn in the next 10 levels and always more challanges ahead </p><p>(am i rambling ? ) </p><p>also there just needs to always be content that is near impossible for 90 % of the playerbase to beat, even group zones that most raiders cant beat every name in, always always needs to be something just out of reach for every playstyle at level cap (becuase it will be beatin once the level increases , and if itemization is done correctly its still worth  it to do the old content. and its still challanging ) </p>

[Oh]

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ahh but are the doing it because they look at WoW and go.  "That game is easier therefore we must make our game easier to compete."  If so, then why hasn't it worked?  Games have released with mechanics just as easy as WoW, and more have evolved to be just as easy.  Maybe it is something else that makes WoW successful and has nothing to do with game difficulty?  Maybe it is truly the difficulty and there is no explanation why no one else has been able to match them.  Maybe it is marketing, or a progressive end game, or blizzard's slow release cycle on new content to ensure it is nearly bug free?</p><p>The same applys to RoK.  Did it sell well because it was harder (based on chances of mob killing you before you killed it) or because of the solo quest lines?  Did it do poorly because the instances are all at end game or because people don't like lizard-men?  SoE has their work cut out for them deciding what makes a great game.  I hope they are still interested enough to try some things out to see.  </p><p>Of course maybe an even easier method would be an in-game poll that pops up when you log in.  It would obviously have to have a "decline this poll" button to avoid skewed results.  I am sure there are even better ideas of what they can do out there.  But for the future of this genre I hope they do something.</p></blockquote><p>I see alot of folks want to blame "wow" for the reason games are getting easier. I really don't think that is the real reason, basically games in general have been getting easier before the next generation of MMO's hit the street running, wow just happened to follow that trend from the get go. ALOT of folks just don't have the time to play a "hard" mmo (example everquest 1), they don't have the time to sink into long grouping sessions, they don't have the time to devote to alot of game play even if it's solo. YET these same folks want to reach an end goal of "wining", this is usually defined at reaching level max or in the sense of a console game finishing it. I would say it is these customers which IMO is probably the majority of players that are bending the games to this paradim of "easier" persay. I know when I was playing EQ1 I sure as heck had a hard time keeping up with everything simply because it required soo much time just to do anything. One death and there set you back another hour which at times you just didn't have. That was one of the many reasons I left EQ1. Now that being said I think that EQ1 still has alot of folks that enjoy that type of a game, it is still difficult (well I assume it is I haven't played it in a while). Unfortunatly what are it's competitors? As far as I can tell the other competitors aren't really there and without good competition there is no strive to make things better. Good or bad WoW is competition for EQ2 soo either eq2 can rise to that challenge or they can't. SOOO in a sense you could say that there is a running "test" so to speak about hard games vs easy games. Just simply compairing more/less apples to apples I could compair eq1 to eq2 and see which has a bigger population and then you have a somewhat compairson. Granted this is still very slanted but ehh it's atleast somewhat close.</p><p>Also IMO SoE could do alot more to "gather" information from it's players and try and get more "successes" then they have now. The same could be said for alot of other mmo's. A simple yet very effective tool is when folks cancel their subscription, having a simple form for folks to say why they are leaving. You know WoW has that, and it seems they listen to what is said. EQ2 use to have it but it was removed, and as far as listening to it I really can't say since I haven't personally been playing eq2 long enough to say.</p><p>OMG I'm still typing, sorry but I do have another point that I think is being subtly skirted around. The point being boredom, everything given enough time becomes very boring to do. For example there is one person in the TS forums that is increadibly bored with the TS's. I can completly understand that point of view, I have 4 level 80 ts'ers and a level 65 armorer. The same paradim is also happening with folks and leveling alts. Granted my alts aren't anywhere near what some folks have but I can completly see the point of view. Once you reach Max level and if you don't have time to group then the game becomes exceptionally boring, heck even if you do have time to group it can become boring, heck even if you have time to raid again with all of the lockouts it can become boring. A game if it is "too" easy folks will become very bored with quickly, if it is too "hard" then folks will just quit and it will never really get a good chance to survive. Trying to hit the middle ground with all of the competiting playstyles is a very difficult thing to achieve. Did EQ2 succeed? /shrug I think in alot of things they are fine with and would even say much better then WoW (yes I played wow since it was released), I also think that there are things that EQ2 can improve upon also.</p><p>edit:</p><p>Giralus, I think your spot on. Things like AA's were introduced but the balance of mobs while leveling was never changed to take into account that folks have aa's. Heck once you slap on some MC gear you are so overpowered compaired to the mobs it really is trivial to level. Not saying that is bad just saying it is. I also agree that it would be nice (tm) if the mobs actually used some of their abilities. For example I have seen enchanter mobs actually mez me I think that is a great thing, wish they did more of that espicaly when they are in a group. Just imaging if you had a 3 pack of mobs a warrior, healer, and an enchanter and they actually all worked together. The enchanter trying to group mez your group, the healer keeping everyone alive and the tank actually having a taunt that would pull the pc's focus to them. That would make an increadibly challenging fight then again that would be a TON of scripting which I just don't see SoE having the time to do. Heck I'm not sure the tools are there for any game company to go to that level of detail. I also like your idea where every tier they start using more and more abilities instead of the 2 or 3 that they use now.</p>

[Razlath]

<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> Just simply compairing more/less apples to apples I could compair eq1 to eq2 and see which has a bigger population and then you have a somewhat compairson. Granted this is still very slanted but ehh it's atleast somewhat close.</p></blockquote><p>Sadly I don't think it is close at all.  EQ1's graphics are absolutely horrible compared to what is on the market now.  It could be the exact game everyone wants to play from a mechanics perspective and many of those wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole because of the graphics.  I however won't touch it because EQ2 has taught me how great it is not to grind.  Questing is the way to go for me, and I just can't bring myself to sit through the downtime of a EQ1-style game killing the same mob over and over again with no result other than xp bar movement.</p><blockquote><p>Also IMO SoE could do alot more to "gather" information from it's players and try and get more "successes" then they have now. The same could be said for alot of other mmo's. A simple yet very effective tool is when folks cancel their subscription, having a simple form for folks to say why they are leaving. You know WoW has that, and it seems they listen to what is said. EQ2 use to have it but it was removed, and as far as listening to it I really can't say since I haven't personally been playing eq2 long enough to say.</p></blockquote><p>Actually I think they would do better to ask those exit questions of the people still playing as well as the ones leaving.  The ones leaving already left, and frankly may not even be the kind of customers that EQ2 was designed to cater to (a smart company doesn't go after every customer as all you end up with is a watered down product no one wants, but instead goes after their "target customers&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  I think we have seen quite a few core design concepts fall by the wayside in response to what those polls contained.  </p><p>Rather than asking the guy on his way out the door who is already [Removed for Content] off what he didn't like (to which the answer is usually an unspecific "everything" or a very specific "last thing that [Removed for Content] them off&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> try asking the people still here what they like the best and what they like the least.  Give us some choices about what is included in the next expansion.  Make them in-game polls where you can't see the number of people answering any specific way, and use that as a very loose "guide" as to what the community wants.  Then the game will be closer to what the true majority want within the confines of the initial development guildlines.  Community interaction is a huge key that I think EQ2 could really step up to the plate and do very well on.  They don't have to make every suggested change to do it, they just have to make it clear that they are listening, they do care, they want to make this game the best it can be, and they are willing to give the community tools to make that happen.</p><blockquote><p>Giralus, I think your spot on.</p></blockquote>I actually loved just about everything Giralus wrote as well.  It would probably go a long way towards a compromise between ease of pickup and continuing challenge.

[Oh]

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Actually I think they would do better to ask those exit questions of the people still playing as well as the ones leaving.  The ones leaving already left, and frankly may not even be the kind of customers that EQ2 was designed to cater to (a smart company doesn't go after every customer as all you end up with is a watered down product no one wants, but instead goes after their "target customers"<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />.  I think we have seen quite a few core design concepts fall by the wayside in response to what those polls contained.  </p><p>Rather than asking the guy on his way out the door who is already [Removed for Content] off what he didn't like (to which the answer is usually an unspecific "everything" or a very specific "last thing that [Removed for Content] them off"<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> try asking the people still here what they like the best and what they like the least.  Give us some choices about what is included in the next expansion.  Make them in-game polls where you can't see the number of people answering any specific way, and use that as a very loose "guide" as to what the community wants.  Then the game will be closer to what the true majority want within the confines of the initial development guildlines.  Community interaction is a huge key that I think EQ2 could really step up to the plate and do very well on.  They don't have to make every suggested change to do it, they just have to make it clear that they are listening, they do care, they want to make this game the best it can be, and they are willing to give the community tools to make that happen.</p></blockquote><p>IMO doing both is a good idea. Granted the customer leaving might be in general mad at everything, but the ones that give the last stickler point is good data. Odds are if one person has an issue with that stickler point more will follow suit and the numbers of folks leaving cause of a partiqular point can be measured. Then you can re-evaulte that in your game and decide to or not to fix it. Do this enough times and you get down to the folks that the game just isn't designed for. Game polls I think would be good, kind of like what eq1 had for a while. Not sure how helpful they were, but the implementation was a bit painful.</p><p>Ohh and good points on the graphics with eq1, and also the lack of quests. Those are two really big points in compairson, I was just trying to give something that was moderatly similar genara and same company and then the oppisit types of difficulty. Without it being the same company it really does come back to apples and oranges.</p>

[Razlath]

<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>IMO doing both is a good idea. Granted the customer leaving might be in general mad at everything, but the ones that give the last stickler point is good data. Odds are if one person has an issue with that stickler point more will follow suit and the numbers of folks leaving cause of a partiqular point can be measured. Then you can re-evaulte that in your game and decide to or not to fix it. Do this enough times and you get down to the folks that the game just isn't designed for. Game polls I think would be good, kind of like what eq1 had for a while. Not sure how helpful they were, but the implementation was a bit painful.</p></blockquote><p>True true.  And if you did the in-game one enough you would have less "generally mad" people leaving (hopefully) and thus could get even more useful information out of them.  I am always a fan of talk to your existing customers and take care of them first and foremost.  If you give them a chance to give feedback before cancelling many less people will cancel.</p><p>I know we had a big problem where I work with people quitting from my department in droves (we turned the entire department of about 20 people twice in about 6 months).  They kept doing exit interviews, but people kept quitting.  Finally we told our manager that maybe they should consider talking to the people still here instead of just the ones walking out the door.  The company was actually walking a similar path to what EQ2 has done.  Group one they talked to said the environment wasn't fun anymore and they wanted more chances to "play around" during breaks.  So company changes environment to have a more active "break time" and includes a dart board and more social events (during work hours and after).  Next group quits because they don't want to be goofing off at work and then be expected to work extra to make up the time.  The change made to accomodate group 1 (which had already quit) then caused even more to quit.  If they had just stuck to their original environment they would only have lost the first group (which they had lost anyway).  There was actually a lot more groups and a lot more reasons, but simplified for illustration purposes.</p><p>Listening to those on the way out the door is reactionary at best.  If you don't combine it with pro-active engagement you are only chasing a moving target you can never catch.</p>

[Odalia]

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Grouping or Raiding? all around in rok yes Sk's dps is not where it should be but this is comon knowledge(atleast it is to the community if you've just returned then im sure you find out quick enough in rok ) and the Dps do have it harder depending on your group, if you have no agro transfers,if your healer dont heal mages or scouts that get agro : ) etc... <b>Skilled DPS know how to put up big numbers and still control there agro</b> . others that dont care if they get agro and are betting they can survive or blame the healer and tank = Suck. <b>Good healers will let em die repeatedly and wont risk the group</b> : ) </span></p></blockquote>Thank you a million times over; being yelled at for letting someone who can't control thier agro die is the reason I won't do PUG's I stick with guild groups. I will heal my tank first IF I can I will heal the others. </blockquote>

[hansomepete]

I can agree with you. I personally would like to see shards come back. Just gave you more then the whoops i died, oh well lets try it again. Probably a huge PIA on a raid but hey you died. I remember in the whailing caves a guy fell off the edge and we all had to run down and save him. Must have left tons of shards down there that night. I miss the Nek runs to the docks, invisibilty was my god send for awhile. I really miss the progression the most. At level 20 when you finally made your class it was a rite of passage. They should have done something at 50 and then again at 80. I would really like to see new spells, not just the same one rehashed with more damage.

[Gromph]

<p>I while ago I decided to make some tests to see if it is true what some people claim, that the game has gone too easy. While I can't recall all the numbers accurately I can at least give some of the result:</p><p>1) Against a white con solo mob I win when I attack and have around 25% power+health left. I have an advantage when I attack since I can root. According to SOE it should be more like 50% win, but that is maybe for a less experienced player.</p><p>2) Against a solo mob 2 lvls above me I always die (even if I attack).</p><p>3) Against a solo mob 1 lvl above me I sometimes die when I attack.</p><p>4) Against two solo mobs 1-2 lvls below me I tend to win if I attack, but is likely to die when ambushed.</p><p>5) Against three solo mobs 1-2 lvls below me I die if I attack. (I tried a certain encounter several times since I thought I should win, but had to give up).</p><p>The tests whas conducted in Antonica with a Fury.</p><p>Of course, no attempt was made here to deliberately simplify the game. Consequently, all spells was app 1 and armor/weapeons was only from quests.</p><p>I don't find this to be too easy nor too hard, but rather optimal. Since solo mobs tend to move around you have all possibilities to be ambushed and die even if picking easy encounters (Unless you look around 360 degrees while fighting a move around accordingly. Something you of course should do, but not always do).</p><p>Furthermore, I find it easy to adjust risk level of the play by going for encounters of somewhat higher or lower level. I.e., easy path or die often can easily be achieved.</p><p>In conclusion, I find no support at all for the claim that the game has become too easy. There are just no facts supporting it. I believe the reason for raising such a claim either comes from players deliberately simplifying the game and who are unable comprehand the consequences of their actions, or people who have a need to exaggerate and brag about their gaming ability (and fail to realise that they have the possibility to adjust the risk level). </p>

[Razlath]

<cite>Gromph wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I while ago I decided to make some tests to see if it is true what some people claim, that the game has gone too easy. While I can't recall all the numbers accurately I can at least give some of the result:</p><p>1) Against a white con solo mob I win when I attack and have around 25% power+health left. I have an advantage when I attack since I can root. According to SOE it should be more like 50% win, but that is maybe for a less experienced player.</p><p>2) Against a solo mob 2 lvls above me I always die (even if I attack).</p><p>3) Against a solo mob 1 lvl above me I sometimes die when I attack.</p><p>4) Against two solo mobs 1-2 lvls below me I tend to win if I attack, but is likely to die when ambushed.</p><p>5) Against three solo mobs 1-2 lvls below me I die if I attack. (I tried a certain encounter several times since I thought I should win, but had to give up).</p><p>The tests whas conducted in Antonica with a Fury.</p><p>Of course, no attempt was made here to deliberately simplify the game. Consequently, all spells was app 1 and armor/weapeons was only from quests.</p><p>I don't find this to be too easy nor too hard, but rather optimal. Since solo mobs tend to move around you have all possibilities to be ambushed and die even if picking easy encounters (Unless you look around 360 degrees while fighting a move around accordingly. Something you of course should do, but not always do).</p><p>Furthermore, I find it easy to adjust risk level of the play by going for encounters of somewhat higher or lower level. I.e., easy path or die often can easily be achieved.</p></blockquote><p>What class, what level?  You note a while ago, how long ago?  What gear were you wearing?  What skills did you use?  Was the mob a 1 up or a no up? </p><p>There is a ton of information left out of this post that would actually make it useable to determine anything.</p><p>For example, if these are numbers from lvl 80 then they don't really apply as the Kunark mobs are a LOT closer to where they should be.</p><p>I will say this, my brigand (62) can currently handle any yellow con 1 up with absolutely no trouble whatsoever no matter who jumps who.  I can handle another adding as long as it adds no sooner than halfway through the fight.  If we fall down to white and blues I can do two one ups at once without trouble and a third can add as long as it does so at least halfway through the fight.  Greens I can take 3 1 ups at once without trouble.  And this is on a class that is very single target based.  While I am wailing on my target the rest pretty much get to have their way with me.  That is way too easy.</p><blockquote>In conclusion, I find no support at all for the claim that the game has become too easy. There are just no facts supporting it. I believe the reason for raising such a claim either comes from players deliberately simplifying the game and who are unable comprehand the consequences of their actions, or people who have a need to exaggerate and brag about their gaming ability (and fail to realise that they have the possibility to adjust the risk level). </blockquote><p>And I find no support in your claim that it has not.  You fail to list any information in your post that would actually determine anything about your experience.  And self changing the difficulty of a game is BS.  There is a con system for a reason.  It should hold true, and it should be accurate.  White Con mobs are the point you determine difficulty at.  If those are easily defeated then the game is easy.  If they are difficult then the game is difficult.</p>

[Giral]

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gromph wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I while ago I decided to make some tests to see if it is true what some people claim, that the game has gone too easy. While I can't recall all the numbers accurately I can at least give some of the result:</p><p>1) Against a white con solo mob I win when I attack and have around 25% power+health left. I have an advantage when I attack since I can root. According to SOE it should be more like 50% win, but that is maybe for a less experienced player.</p><p>2) Against a solo mob 2 lvls above me I always die (even if I attack).</p><p>3) Against a solo mob 1 lvl above me I sometimes die when I attack.</p><p>4) Against two solo mobs 1-2 lvls below me I tend to win if I attack, but is likely to die when ambushed.</p><p>5) Against three solo mobs 1-2 lvls below me I die if I attack. (I tried a certain encounter several times since I thought I should win, but had to give up).</p><p>The tests whas conducted in Antonica with a Fury.</p><p>Of course, no attempt was made here to deliberately simplify the game. Consequently, all spells was app 1 and armor/weapeons was only from quests.</p><p>I don't find this to be too easy nor too hard, but rather optimal. Since solo mobs tend to move around you have all possibilities to be ambushed and die even if picking easy encounters (Unless you look around 360 degrees while fighting a move around accordingly. Something you of course should do, but not always do).</p><p>Furthermore, I find it easy to adjust risk level of the play by going for encounters of somewhat higher or lower level. I.e., easy path or die often can easily be achieved.</p></blockquote><p>What class, what level?  You note a while ago, how long ago?  What gear were you wearing?  What skills did you use?  Was the mob a 1 up or a no up? </p><p>There is a ton of information left out of this post that would actually make it useable to determine anything.</p><p>For example, if these are numbers from lvl 80 then they don't really apply as the Kunark mobs are a LOT closer to where they should be.</p><p>I will say this, my brigand (62) can currently handle any yellow con 1 up with absolutely no trouble whatsoever no matter who jumps who.  I can handle another adding as long as it adds no sooner than halfway through the fight.  If we fall down to white and blues I can do two one ups at once without trouble and a third can add as long as it does so at least halfway through the fight.  Greens I can take 3 1 ups at once without trouble.  And this is on a class that is very single target based.  While I am wailing on my target the rest pretty much get to have their way with me.  That is way too easy.</p><blockquote>In conclusion, I find no support at all for the claim that the game has become too easy. There are just no facts supporting it. I believe the reason for raising such a claim either comes from players deliberately simplifying the game and who are unable comprehand the consequences of their actions, or people who have a need to exaggerate and brag about their gaming ability (and fail to realise that they have the possibility to adjust the risk level). </blockquote><p>And I find no support in your claim that it has not.  You fail to list any information in your post that would actually determine anything about your experience.  And self changing the difficulty of a game is BS.  There is a con system for a reason.  It should hold true, and it should be accurate.  White Con mobs are the point you determine difficulty at.  If those are easily defeated then the game is easy.  If they are difficult then the game is difficult.</p></blockquote><p>i wil also add "What types of mobns were you fighting? Healer?Fighter?Mage?Scout?"  some classes solo some mob types Easier then others,    </p><p> on my lvl 52 guardian in Level 42 MC gear, and mostly adpt 1, with some app 4 , a Healer Mob can be a real pain for me to solo becuase i am doing low damage, and the mob is healing back up faster then i can damage it, my power bar is going down fast , but the mobs power bar is barley moving,   Yet on my SK healer mobs arent as hard becuase i have alot of Dots ticking, Interupts hitting mob,and doing more damage all around then with my guard </p><p>to add, i was soloing with my Guard (lvl 52 Gear /spell quality stated above) was in LF doing the solo quests*been doing them since level 50) and have been Soloing all the mobs needed for the quest Solo quest line you get when entering thru from GF ,  </p><p>at level 52 i was soloing the lvl 56 and lvl 57 Faiery type mobs, the Essenses and the Dryad mobs, all diffrent types, some are healers, some are fighters, etc,, if i got an add i would die 9 out of 10 times but did occasionaly win,....</p><p>again this is on a 52 guard, regarded at that level as one of the Worst solo classes in the game, and im in some gear that is lvl 42, and the rest is treasured drop loot, and i havent played this character in MONTHS, just leveleed him over the weekend for the double exp( was solo for all of it from level 48 to 52 except 1 group in MoM) 4 levels in a couple days of playing solo with one of the worst solo classes in the game playing ? and NO i didnt play 10 hours a day <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> , was about 3 to 4 hours a day and i chatted and babbled with friends, checked broker, got adpt upgrades when needed etc,, </p><p>so if i can log into a class i havent played in months,thats in outdated gear/treasured droped gear.adpt 1's  known to be a Crap solo class, and be soloing mobs 4 to 5 levels higher then me and get 4 level's in a few days, i'd say solo'ing is pretty easy, exp is easy,leveling is easy, </p><p>now if you compare that to release ? if i died(and of coruse i did) i would lose a Shard, when i lost a Shard, i had Decreased stats from that shard until i got the shard back, if i lost 2 Shards i had even more decreased stats, 3 shards? Same deal ,,,,,,,,,,,,so now i would have to try soloing mobs with less stats then befor that i already died on, to try and get back to my shard, Also i got Alot of debt when i died and it took Alot longer to get ride of the debt, add to that you also got LEss exp per Mob, plus armor damage </p><p>so what was more risky? </p><p>(cant comment on gaurdians soloablity back at release as i played an SK : ) and always have Soloed things with the sk i shouldnt be able to even back then i could solo Blue/Green heriocs, i could solo Blightwhip in RV(think he was blue) , could solo RED SOLO Mobs(even tho you got Nothing for doing so it was just for the thrill of trying(and took Alot of tries and deaths lol ) and Succeding <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </p><p>was riskier, had alot more to lose back then,lot more debt to be had, but it was also more  thilling and rewarding when you did finaly pull of the near impossible.........(for me atleast, i still get a similar thrill when soloing in Eq2, but its just not the same when you have nothing to lose) </p>

[Todra_B]

<p>Until they specify I think it is safe to assume that the Fury example is level 10 to 18 with app1 spells and poor armor. A Fury even at that level with lvl 12 MC armor and app4 or ad1 spells even con, no ^, should not be a problem. Non heroic groups one or two levels below can be an issue before the Fury get the big group nuke. In Loping Plains my Fury took on one of those flying bloodsucker things 4 levels higher and won (just barely). I did have a few ad3's and if a big nuke was a M2 choice I took it. I think it was just before I had enough aa's for Stormcaller.</p><p>I don't think the game evolved so that someone with only app1 spells could solo for long. I would be an interesting experiment to see how well someone could do if they never upgraded their spells/ca's. </p><p>My Fury came up the hard way with little money. Luckily I'm in a helpful guild and have met some generous players. Now at 80 he generates enough cash so I can twink my alts to the extreme.</p>

[liveja]

<p>My nephew started a Wizzie the other day, for the progression contest. He made it to 20th level in TD in some ridiculously short period of time, & is now 28th level soloing in BBM. I asked him how he's doing with rooting mobs. He told me he doesn't bother, because they're generally down to around 10% life when they get to him.</p><p>My older brother -- who, when it comes to MMOs, is the dictionary definition of <b>n00b</b> -- has been having great fun soloing a Bruiser over the last couple weeks. TD hasn't been much of a challenge, even for him.</p><p>I personally have a hard time believing <b>anyone</b> could have trouble soloing in the new, heavily-gimped-down Antonica, with <b>any</b> class <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>As for gear, I think the <b>bare minimum</b> for gear & spells/CAs should look more like this:</p><p>10-50ish: App4 & regular crafted -- App 1 & "quested" gear at this level range is self-gimpage.</p><p>50-70: Adept 1 & MC mixed with legendary dungeon gear</p><p>70-79: Full MC mixed with ROK legendary quest gear, Adept 3 mixed with a couple unimportant Adept 1s</p><p>80: Full ROK legendary, Adept 3/Master 1 with maybe a couple very unimportant Adept 1s.</p><p>As I said, IMO those are <b>reasonable </b>"bare minimums" for <b>casual non-raiding players</b> in those level ranges. If a toon is geared below those levels, something is simply wrong. </p>

[Thunderthyze]

<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Everytime that they make something hard, people come here and complain.  You can see examples are current threads right here..for example, not being able to 3 group a 6 group instance.</p><p>*shrug* <b><u>I was playing at the beginning and I had never wanted them to change anything.  But I'm in the minority apparently.</u></b></p></blockquote>We both are

[Devildog93]

I think they messed up when they changed things about a year ago. I think a lot of customers hit the exit when they couldn't small group(2-4 players) heroic instances several levels lower than them. I think a lot of people liked the fact that at one time you could do this, and in multiple configurations. The hardcore raiding types would have none of it however. I also think the master drop rates post 50 really turned a lot of people off, and i include myself in this. Yea, i'm back now, but i would say that is mostly due to the lack of games that cater to me and my guild out there right now and the gameplay/features we dislike in other games. I like a lot of things about eq2, but the higher level range is not one of them. I think the game takes a real nose-dive for us around 50 as far as interest level. PvP is the driving force behind most of my guild, and i know we're in the minority, but that is just my two cents on the issue.-Faize

[Razlath]

<cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Everytime that they make something hard, people come here and complain.  You can see examples are current threads right here..for example, not being able to 3 group a 6 group instance.</p><p>*shrug* <b><u>I was playing at the beginning and I had never wanted them to change anything.  But I'm in the minority apparently.</u></b></p></blockquote>We both are</blockquote>I am not so sure we are.

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>80: Full ROK legendary, Adept 3/Master 1 with maybe a couple very unimportant Adept 1s.</p></blockquote>Nope, nowhere near that.I haven't even upgraded my 55-70 masters with adept 3s because I don't consider them to be worthwhile upgrades. And, I haven't seen much Monk equipment that's a decent upgrade over Mastercrafted (that isn't a wrist or ring).So that's the definition of casual, non-raiding (and mostly non-grouping too, since nearly ALL I do is duo - although two is a group :)BTW, in respect of my sig, Flaye.It's not at all about whether you have any problems with it affecting your swashie, or whether *anyone* has any problems on their scout/mage [insert class using an invis/stealth ability or item]. It's that BEFORE the change was made, the developers TOLD us that it would NOT break stealth (and/or invis) and I took the time to test all the ways of getting into stealth and invis, and: Lo! Stealth and Invis remained working while the 2 second cast timer did its job. With GU39, the change went live and so Stealth and Invis remained useable as normal. Then with no documentation or word from development that there'd been a change, ROK went live (GU40) and the cast timer began to break stealth and invis once more.So IT'S A BUG!It was a bug then and, until some patch notes or development says otherwise (or shock, horror! someone actually fixes it), it will remain a bug.

[Spender]

<p>Sadly, GU47 is going to make the game much safer.  This will further encourage solo play and kill what's left of group play.  I don't think the developers are listening or they don't care.</p><p>Not much grouping, not much of an economy, and a remaining playerbase stuffed full of alts.</p><p>We have tried easy for the last couple of years and the subscription numbers have declined.  Why not make the game more challenging and see if that helps to keep players engaged.</p>

[Skua]

<cite>Mariss@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><ul><li><span class="postbody">Remember when Nek Forest was dreaded by all making their way to the dock?</span></li></ul><span class="postbody">Amen to that!I left for a couple years and came back and was shocked how easy it was to run through Nek.</span></blockquote><p>i still have nightmares....owlbears owning me left and right NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!</p><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The simple best thing that could be done for difficulty scaling is to improve the mob UI.Have the mob use the level appropriate skills at adept1 or better level.  Have it use things more intelligently, ie stuns, cast orders, and general tactics.  I've never had a level 80 mob use any of its class specific abilities on me.  Change the majority of the mobs from guardian to a more interesting class type.  Seems 90% of the content just autoattacks and casts confound on me.  Things could certainly be much, much more challenging than this.Force me to time my stuns appropriately, etc.Lastly, I'ld like the combat system to be able to take in account terrain in a more significant manner.  Mobs hitting me at range should need line of sight to do so, so ducking behind a wall would force a ranged mob to move closer.  I very much liked this mechanic in LOTRO, though it was probably the only thing I liked there.</blockquote>THATS IT<p>we have a winner!!!! </p><p>thats why Eq2 combat is so boring and repetitive......</p>

[Zarador]

<cite>Spender wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sadly, GU47 is going to make the game much safer.  This will further encourage solo play and kill what's left of group play.  I don't think the developers are listening or they don't care.</p><p>Not much grouping, not much of an economy, and a remaining playerbase stuffed full of alts.</p><p>We have tried easy for the last couple of years and the subscription numbers have declined.  Why not make the game more challenging and see if that helps to keep players engaged.</p></blockquote>Is it just me that finds the whole grouping argument rediculous? If we just make solo play less rewarding and group play more valuable, then people will learn to enjoy grouping?  lets flip that statement around a little.  I enjoy solo/duo play so much that even before RoK ever came out I accepted the fact that masters for me would be a very very rare treat if and when I could afford them and fabled would be...well, a fable.   So basically, long before all of the solo play adavantages that so many are trashing, I decided that solo/duo play was worth the sacrifice of not being able to do everything and get almost anything in the game.  So why is it that grouping is such an enjoyable valuable important part of the game that we need to punish those that dont wish to group and bribe those that do group just to encourage grouping.It would seem to me that if so many people loved to group, there would be no issue and no reason for SoE to ever have raised the benefits of soloing.  This is not a case of solo killing groups but rather a case of players getting tired of either grouping or getting nothing so they left.

[Serraph]

<cite>SkuaII wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>i still have nightmares....owlbears owning me left and right NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!</p></blockquote><p>I got that quest to kill 20 Owl bears when I first got there (earlier today, in fact).  But I wandered around some, and did some other quests, and I never saw a single Owl monster.</p><p>Lots of annoying wolves and spiders, however.  Oh, and fungus people.</p><p>PS: If it's any consolation to the OP, I didn't care much for the zone, and did in fact die a couple of times.</p>

[Jai1]

<p>I don't need danger in a game....  I have knives in the house and I'm a cutter. </p><p>In the original EQ, I would cut myself a little everytime I didn't gain a skillup in JC past 200 and my body looks like high level Fabled character who thrives on naked missions ='(</p>

[Devout Disciple]

<cite>Spender wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This will further encourage solo play and kill what's left of group play.</p><p>Not much grouping, not much of an economy, and a remaining playerbase stuffed full of alts.</p></blockquote><p>Heh heh heh I wish I had the issue of that mag that access subbers would get still around.  It was the one with the armor quests and talk of Split Paw and/or the Bloodline Adventure Pack in it. (possibly talked of Desert of Flames too)  </p><p>In there they said when the MOBs were changed to solo it actually encouraged grouping.  So one couldn't be more wrong about having soloable MOBs about if the same is holding true.</p><p>Edit: Added below quote I agree with</p><p><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>This is not a case of solo killing groups but rather a case of players getting tired of either grouping or getting nothing so they left. </blockquote><p>I'm going with this theory.</p>

[Faenril]

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>So why is it that grouping is such an enjoyable valuable important part of the game that we need to punish those that dont wish to group and bribe those that do group just to encourage grouping.It would seem to me that if so many people loved to group, there would be no issue and no reason for SoE to ever have raised the benefits of soloing. This is not a case of solo killing groups but rather a case of players getting tired of either grouping or getting nothing so they left. </blockquote>Believe it or not, a MMO, unlike a solo rpg, is about social interaction. That implies getting things done with other players, making friends in the process, and taking together challenges you could not handle on your own.Does it make any sense that several players are hitting the same mobs for the same quest 20 meters away from each other, instead of doing it together ?SOE has put a lot of hard work to dumb down the game and make it more solo friendly, probably in order to attract the casual players from WOW's market.Considering the servers load evolution, this was obviously not a success story, and maybe not the proper way to go...To me, one important aspect of EQ2 is that it offers 24 unique classes, with each a clearly defined role, strengths and weaknesses. Unlike in some other games, no class is able to melee the mob while healing itself and casting fireballs, if you see what I mean <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />The interesting part is how those classes work together to get a proper group alchemy and get content cleared.When I started eq2, it had the reputation of a difficult game, very group oriented, where you could do very little on your own.You know what ? that's precisely what attracted me to the game...Honnestly do you guys feel like you accomplished something after killing those 10 spiders in KP for an uber item ? Now THIS is boredom.

[Zarador]

<cite>Faerie@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>So why is it that grouping is such an enjoyable valuable important part of the game that we need to punish those that dont wish to group and bribe those that do group just to encourage grouping.It would seem to me that if so many people loved to group, there would be no issue and no reason for SoE to ever have raised the benefits of soloing. This is not a case of solo killing groups but rather a case of players getting tired of either grouping or getting nothing so they left. </blockquote>Believe it or not, a MMO, unlike a solo rpg, is about social interaction. That implies getting things done with other players, making friends in the process, and taking together challenges you could not handle on your own.Does it make any sense that several players are hitting the same mobs for the same quest 20 meters away from each other, instead of doing it together ?SOE has put a lot of hard work to dumb down the game and make it more solo friendly, probably in order to attract the casual players from WOW's market.Considering the servers load evolution, this was obviously not a success story, and maybe not the proper way to go...To me, one important aspect of EQ2 is that it offers 24 unique classes, with each a clearly defined role, strengths and weaknesses. Unlike in some other games, no class is able to melee the mob while healing itself and casting fireballs, if you see what I mean <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />The interesting part is how those classes work together to get a proper group alchemy and get content cleared.When I started eq2, it had the reputation of a difficult game, very group oriented, where you could do very little on your own.You know what ? that's precisely what attracted me to the game...Honnestly do you guys feel like you accomplished something after killing those 10 spiders in KP for an uber item ? Now THIS is boredom. </blockquote>Gee, the solo play attracts me and I've been playing since Everquest Live, almost beta.  The massive stands for a massive world that can accomadate a massive amount of players.  Beleive it or not, I can interact with my fellow player and friends without being forced to group with them.  We also have chat channels that allow us to talk with eachother to pass the time. Necro's have no difficulty whatsoever doing massive damage on the mobs while healing themselves, I beleive several classes can tank and heal themselves quite well. Honestly, yes, I feel a sense of accomplishment IN THE GAME when I complete a solo quest and get a reward.  I also get excited about soloing a named (mini-boss), visiting areas that "require groups" as some believe and surviving.  I enjoy going places solo/duo on my Wizard who is now 77 and seeing the difference between the ability to solo as compared to my now level 80 Necromancer.   I enjoy making spells on level 78 Sage/67 Defiler with the rares I obtain on my many other classes. Grouping is but one aspect of the game, not the only reason to play the game.  Most group content, short of some difficult instances is even more trivial than solo content.  Sure, you have to depend on others who may slack off, but that's not game mechanics, that's human nature at work.  I can't start a fight and walk away to answer the door or chat with a friend.  I can't start harvesting or getting a "?" in the middle of killing a named.  Basically, soloing offers a thrill of it's own because there really is no margin for error.  Yes, the results of a wipe are far less, but daunting none the less.One could add the same by the way.  Do you feel like you accomplished anything when your group takes on a mini-boss and finishes it off in seconds with full health and 95% power remaining? Does that somehow make it a greater feat than when I take it down solo?  How about when your grinding out quests in a zone and massively pulling mobs finishing up quests in minutes? See, it plays both ways.  That's why it's a great online game, you can play how you enjoy playing.

[Nole]

<p>I only read the last couple pages of this thread. This is good, because I suspect reading more would enrage me and cause me to say unpleasant things <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I honestly think Kunark's greatest failure is that the solo content is solo and the group content is group and there's a wide gulf between them. There's no 2-3 person content. Walking into KC at the same level as the mobs without a full group, or even with a full pick-up group or whatnot is just asking to die repeatedly. This isn't fun. I can now murder the solo content. I can't solo the group content. There's no in between for me where I can take out more challenging mobs. (Also drop rates are terrible and that's just annoying. There's nothing challenging about killing the same guy 10x more times to get a drop. It's just tedious.)</p><p>In previous expansions this gulf was generally between heroic and epic. Heroics became soloable at some point after they turned blue/green (depending on class and gear) allowing you to challenge yourself by taking on progressively higher heroics. (Or to take sub-optimal groups into dungeons as long as you outlevelled stuff.) One night I had a quest that called for the Vaults of El'Arad. I couldn't get any healers to come for over an hour: At that point, my choices were give up and move on in disgust or try with a really sub-optimal group. Given that I was higher level than the zone, it turned out that a pally was more than enough additional healing to keep me up.</p><p>Moral of the story: If you want a challenge, stop bringing super awesomely geared characters in a perfect group to the content. The group content isn't meant for the top 10% or whatever. Try soloing it when it's lower level. Try something.</p><p>I can tell you soloing most of the Hero of Maj'dul line (I had a bit of help at a couple steps) gave me a lot more satisfaction than taking a group through KC to kill the last guy (even if at my level it took multiple attempts to get a group not to fall apart). I can also tell you that if certain parts of the game were forever closed to people without a group, you'd never get to see some of the older content. That would be a terrible move given that it's already developed, and to me it's new.</p><p>Also Nek forest would be a lot more dangerous if non-aggro mobs didn't share spawns with aggro mobs. Every one of those snakes and bats that doesn't want to eat you can turn into a spider/wolf if killed. In practice, people kill the mobs that attack them and leave the others alone. Might be boring to you, but some of the tradeskill quests require harvesting, without some zone that's safe for a lowbie tradeskiller, that would be a giant pain (like Kunark crafting stuff).</p><p>Now I agree the mobs could be made less boring, I don't think they need to hit as hard as they do or whatnot. As an SK, the inability to fight many mobs at the same time in Kunark angers me. Then again, as an SK, a lot of aspects of Kunark anger me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Faerie@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Believe it or not, a MMO, unlike a solo rpg, is about social interaction. That implies getting things done with other players, making friends in the process, and taking together challenges you could not handle on your own.</blockquote>Really, no. It's not.That may be what it's about <i>for you, </i>but the whole point of an MMO is there are other people who have different goals, needs and desires.My requirements of this game absolutely do not coincide with yours.It makes no odds what my requirements are or how they differ from yours, as there are as many other people who have different objectives again.So please try to understand, an MMO is about playing a game where other people with different viewpoints also happen to be playing.Having said that though, EQ2 was released as a casual, family-oriented MMO. That's why my small circle of friends and I signed up. We expect this game to be directed, on the whole, at small groups with a laid back playstyle. Unfortunately, the EQ2 development team has lost its direction, and many end-game encounters/instances...etc are too tough for small groups, especially those with unusual configurations of classes.For those looking for a bigger challenge, then I suggest you duo/trio exclusively with a group outside of the fighter/healer/dps archetype.Or, you could just go out with pick-up groups (where at level 50+, the tank in your group tells everyone that the Adept that just dropped is his first ever!!)Or, with players that take 25 minutes to get a full group to someplace like CT.Or, with players who die on the way to Runnyeye even!These people exist. It's for them this game is designed.<i><i></i></i><i></i>

[Beldin_]

<cite>Aiya@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I honestly think Kunark's greatest failure is that the solo content is solo and the group content is group and there's a wide gulf between them. There's no 2-3 person content. Walking into KC at the same level as the mobs without a full group, or even with a full pick-up group or whatnot is just asking to die repeatedly. </blockquote><p>Finally somebody with the same opinion.</p><p>The problem in RoK are in Fact threads like this one, or all "We want more challenge" cryers. The problem is that they made all the group-content in RoK TOO challenging for small groups or for low level groups. You can't go to Karnors with 70, even a full level 80 group can wipe there, and for CoA at least the tank should be 78 and better 80 if you want to fight the last guy.</p><p>So no .. making everything even harder would NOT encourage grouping, also packing the overland zones full of heroics would not encourage grouping (everyone ever seen groups grinding heroics overland ?), at least not if these heroics are not killable in a duo/trio. What would help is give us again Instances like "The Nest" that can be done by 2-3 80 Characters, and/or maybe change T7 Mobs that are level 70+ to drop Masters of their level, so that High T7 Zones are also interesting to play again, since with the new spell progression there is else nothing you can get from this zones.</p>

[Rainmare]

Okay you solo types are blowing this out of proportion. those of us wanting 'more challenge' are NOT asking for every other overland mob to be a [Removed for Content] heroic. What we're asking for is zones that are more like the OLD Nek forest. or EL. zones that have heroics in them, hell maybe even a x2 epic that might wader around a little bit. Something to keep you on your toes.and I hate you people that come here 'but I only solo/duo' and then mention your classes are like Wizards and Conjys, you know, the most powerful soloing classes in the [Removed for Content] game. gee, I wonder how much fun you'd have if you were trying to solo with a guard or a templar. were green 'heroics' mobs CAN easily kill you, despite plate armor, and where the fights take 5 minutes becuase you basically waging a battle of attrition. the classes that are almost by design entirely group oriented, but in Kunark have been forced into nothing but solo play to accomplish anything.Kunark is SO solo friendly that people playing alts hate it because it's boring. I ripped through all of the plains and have done almost half the Fens quests in about 2 days. I've been to Karnor's once. and I had more fun in Karnors then there was to be had outside of it.My dachsund puppy can literally walk on the keyboard, and do quests for me. I actually have to pay attention in groups. I have to know when and how to use my spells, or I die, and the group can die.most people who want more challenge don't want overland zones crammed full of train hitting heroics and forced grouping. what they want are the zones to actually require someone to have to pay attention. like for example, the Bonemire. there were little groups of wandering mobs, 3-5 in a pack. double arrow down, but all of them had a stun. you had to be aware if you were fighting near them, becuase they coudl get you killed easy if they aggroed while you were fighting something else. now, in Kunark, I can fight 10 feet from something that can kill me if it adds becuase it's never going to move. that group of iksars isn't going to leave it's tent. that bandit camp isn't going to care that I'm killing thier comrade two feet from them.if thier going to make everything in the overland zones solo, then at least give them serious social aggro. then there you go, look, 2-3 group content. makes the areas like the bandit camps in fens a little rough on a soloer, but probably rather decent for a duo or trio. the ghost ruins in JW, the crater mine in JW, the little goblin area in KJ, the mushroom area in KJ, you'd have the iksar village and Varis in KP, maybe the skele ruins or th drachnid cave to.See it's not about forced grouping or big heroics, but just making the game require a little more thought, have a little more invovlement, so it might take a little more effort. make the game require at least more hand-eye cordination and intelligence then can be mustered by a toddler.Simple little things.

[liveja]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It's that BEFORE the change was made, the developers TOLD us that it would NOT break stealth</p></blockquote><p>So they changed their minds, & frankly I'm glad they did, because Stealth in particular was over-powered. I think it still is, in fact.</p><p>It's not a bug. It's "working as intended." Get over it & adapt, like the rest of us have.</p>

[Nole]

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Okay you solo types are blowing this out of proportion. those of us wanting 'more challenge' are NOT asking for every other overland mob to be a [Removed for Content] heroic. What we're asking for is zones that are more like the OLD Nek forest. or EL. zones that have heroics in them, hell maybe even a x2 epic that might wader around a little bit. Something to keep you on your toes.and I hate you people that come here 'but I only solo/duo' and then mention your classes are like Wizards and Conjys, you know, the most powerful soloing classes in the [Removed for Content] game. gee, I wonder how much fun you'd have if you were trying to solo with a guard or a templar. were green 'heroics' mobs CAN easily kill you, despite plate armor, and where the fights take 5 minutes becuase you basically waging a battle of attrition. the classes that are almost by design entirely group oriented, but in Kunark have been forced into nothing but solo play to accomplish anything.Kunark is SO solo friendly that people playing alts hate it because it's boring. I ripped through all of the plains and have done almost half the Fens quests in about 2 days. I've been to Karnor's once. and I had more fun in Karnors then there was to be had outside of it.My dachsund puppy can literally walk on the keyboard, and do quests for me. I actually have to pay attention in groups. I have to know when and how to use my spells, or I die, and the group can die.most people who want more challenge don't want overland zones crammed full of train hitting heroics and forced grouping. what they want are the zones to actually require someone to have to pay attention. like for example, the Bonemire. there were little groups of wandering mobs, 3-5 in a pack. double arrow down, but all of them had a stun. you had to be aware if you were fighting near them, becuase they coudl get you killed easy if they aggroed while you were fighting something else. now, in Kunark, I can fight 10 feet from something that can kill me if it adds becuase it's never going to move. that group of iksars isn't going to leave it's tent. that bandit camp isn't going to care that I'm killing thier comrade two feet from them.if thier going to make everything in the overland zones solo, then at least give them serious social aggro. then there you go, look, 2-3 group content. makes the areas like the bandit camps in fens a little rough on a soloer, but probably rather decent for a duo or trio. the ghost ruins in JW, the crater mine in JW, the little goblin area in KJ, the mushroom area in KJ, you'd have the iksar village and Varis in KP, maybe the skele ruins or th drachnid cave to.See it's not about forced grouping or big heroics, but just making the game require a little more thought, have a little more invovlement, so it might take a little more effort. make the game require at least more hand-eye cordination and intelligence then can be mustered by a toddler.Simple little things. </blockquote><p>If your templar has trouble soloing green heroics pre-Kunark, I suggest you look over your spec and gear.</p><p>Also Kunark "solo" mobs hit like pre-RoK blue con heroics (Though they lack the hp and defenses of real heroics). Kunark "solo" mobs are a direct result of people complaining that the game isn't challenging enough. All my AoEs have become almost worthless because it's death to pull massive groups of mobs like in KoS, and almost all the multi-mob encounters got taken out because they were "too easy." The Bonemire was a far easier zone as an SK. Just aggro as many things as necessary and AoE. The mobs there didn't hit hard. The mobs in Kunark do.</p><p>Honestly, Kunark was their attempt to make things harder, the only thing you're not seeing is 2-3 man content killing you while you're solo because you weren't paying attention because there really isn't any. If KoS mobs were as aggressive as previous expansions' mobs you'd die repeatedly solo and become incredibly frustrated.</p>

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It's that BEFORE the change was made, the developers TOLD us that it would NOT break stealth</p></blockquote><p>So they changed their minds, & frankly I'm glad they did, because Stealth in particular was over-powered. I think it still is, in fact.</p><p>It's not a bug. It's "working as intended." Get over it & adapt, like the rest of us have.</p></blockquote>Wrong, Flaye.Where were the patch notes to say so?& please; feel free to take this to the appropriate thread:<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=398907�" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...07�</a>In the meantime, you'll just have to put up with my sig in your face <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[liveja]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>Where were the patch notes to say so?</blockquote><p>Where is there anything, anywhere, saying they have to document every change they make to the game?</p><p>As for the appropriateness of this thread: I note the title is about making the game dangerous again. Changing Stealth/Invis back to the way you want would be just one more way to make it LESS dangerous again. I'm talking about leaving an element of danger in the game. There is nothing inappropriate about discussing this issue in this thread.</p>

[Serraph]

<p>From my experience as a total noob (been playing about 2 weeks now), it already seems to me that every zone I visit with my Inquisitor is full of heroic mobs, or densely packed even-level mobs.  For instance, I wanted to start gathering the next tier of resources, so I made a circuit of Thundering Steppes, Butcherblock and Nek Forest.  None of these zones were very friendly (or profitable) towards my gathering efforts.  I basically ended up in Butcherblock, doing green/blue quests.  Doing "white" quests and fighting white mobs isn't really worth the effort for me.</p><p>I guess you could make things harder, and limit me to green-only stuff.</p>

[Cambi]

<cite>Cracklepop wrote:</cite><blockquote>That says it all right there. I'm not talking about instances, that's on a case by case basis. I'm talking about failed disarmed chests that explode and that can seriously injure or kill you, not just give you a little scratch. Why bother even having a disarm skill? What happened to the fizzling spells?Failed tradeskill counter spells that cause real damage. The forge used to be a real killer. Make it so again. Now, if I fail, I might lose 5 points of health, if any at all. Along this line is the jump down from the top of Freeport TS to the bottom floor. Nary a scratch, and without any kind of safefall. Safefall in general is too pillowy soft. Just about every class gets it or glide or float or some kind of fall nerf. You should be afraid to jump. Your safefall should be how many HPs you have. (This is the usual safefall method for tanks. heh) Speaking of fear... Make the zones really dangerous again. Remember when Nek Forest was dreaded by all making their way to the dock? Agro everywhere. Even the paths weren't safe. Bring back the tons of killing involved in betraying. Having to group up to kill some nameds is a lot more fun that just having to switch out a few clipboards (for Freeport --> Qeynos). Betraying should take more than just one afternoon to complete. I know, they made all these changes because ppl were whining about having a real challenge in the game. Now it's just grinding. Long, slow, tedious grinding. Where is the adventure? Where is the challenge?/hidesoapbox</blockquote>Wow. Congrats on batting .000%Every single one of those ideas is horrible. It is the lack of those things that is a major reason my wife and I tried the game out again recently, and resubscribed.

[ZachSpastic]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It's that BEFORE the change was made, the developers TOLD us that it would NOT break stealth</p></blockquote><p>So they changed their minds, & frankly I'm glad they did, because Stealth in particular was over-powered. I think it still is, in fact.</p><p>It's not a bug. It's "working as intended." Get over it & adapt, like the rest of us have.</p></blockquote>Umm, what? I'm missing something here. I think stealth has been bugged and wimpy ever since they removed the contestable nature of it back in LUsomereallylownumber.

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Where is there anything, anywhere, saying they have to document every change they make to the game?</p></blockquote>Why even bother with patch notes at all?Maybe that'll make the game better for you.

[Oakum]

<p>It is natural that the more a person "risk" whether its time or death penalties, ect, the better it feels to succeed at something. Otherwise we would all play tetris or something. </p><p>What makes it more difficult to achieve is that different players are equiped and skilled at different lvls. Me playing a warden for going on four years and knowing the class extremely well and how to play it has it easier then a warden who just hit lvl 80 after being powerleveled by guildies or even an illegeal pay service for a month.  Also, I like many others, don't know that I will have the time available as I did before the kids were born. They are more important. </p><p>With that said I do miss some of the penalties for messing up since the death means nothing now. I solo in KC sometimes, I die quite often, money for repairs is easy to get from farming overland mobs and the 50 percent xp debt means nothing at all at 80/140/400. Even if I still needed xp, so little xp from killing/quest go to debt that its not worth worrying over. </p><p>The part that I miss is the lack of thought required to TS now. Its just button mashing and puts me to sleep if I am the least bit tired. Having Crohn's disease, I am tired a lot, lol. Keeping track of how many of what items I needed to make kept me awake. Now some like carpenters had it way to hard and a lot of the  raiders and not tradeskilling people around right before it was nerfed complained that it was too hard for them to get in to it and that it made items that were too good.  Then it was nerfted when KoS came out and made pretty much worthless for a long time except for certain items like adept 3's. Of course when it was nerfed, crafters left the game in droves too, lol. </p><p>Another way is saying it is that prior to teh big TS nerf with KoS it used to take some thought since I had to know how many of what basic items  were needed to make the subcombines in order to make an adept 3 which was enough thought to keep me awake. </p><p>The interdependancy was a pain before geocrafting I admit but removing the option of doing it a little cheaper that way made tradeskillers not want to interact and help each other. That left the game entirely until the TS Epic and then  became a had to have that I DIDN'T miss from before geocrafting was put in, lol. </p><p>So yes, I miss the game not being harder but on the other hand, I dont have the time I used to so, now that I have adjusted to the tradeskill nerf for over a while and just dont do much TSing, I dont miss it being harder at the same time. Like others said, it was never really, realy hard. It just too some thought is all. </p><p>As for eq1. It was tough, it was fun, it had a very limited amount of spells that could be memorized at the same time and regenning power sitting always annoyed me. I will not go back to it ever more then likely. </p>

[Brul]

I am pretty sure WoW had alot to do with EQ2's level of ease.  WoW was/is crushing EQ2.  The population sucks here.I quit wow after 3 years because it's boring as hell.  AoC provided nothing interesting.I came back to EQ2 and I am actually enjoying myself (I was here for the release and numerous free trials).  I'm kinda glad its easy atm because I don't have alot of time to play games anymore.I ramble way too much.

[DragonMaster2385]

I agree that they should change the traps on chests. If you are level 15 and trigger a trap on a chest, you better be above 40% health or it might kill you. At level 80, it takes away like half of a percent or something, making them pointless. They should change the penalty to be a percentage of max health. The difficulty of the rest of the game isn't too bad, especially in RoK. The solo mobs hit like trucks and as a mage, it can be very dangerous. I would like of like to have spirit shards again (maybe overland zones only), but I know that will never happen. I agree that WoW was influential to the change of difficulty to this game; WoW was/is easy as hell and sold millions, so SOE compared the games and shifted accordingly. Did it help? I doubt it.

[Nole]

<p>The problem with making chests more dangerous is that if you don't have a scout, you have 0 chance to disarm them. There's no skill involved in clicking your disarm button. There's no skill involved if you're not the right class. You just take whatever the trap decides to give you.</p>

[Serraph]

<cite>Brul@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I quit wow after 3 years because it's boring as hell.  </blockquote><p>Anything is going to be boring after 3 years.</p><p>That's likely the real problem here.  There's nothing that can be done to EQ2 (or WoW) that's going to make it as fun and challenging as it was when you first started playing.</p><p>The game seems plenty challenging to me.</p>

[Nightmarus]

I was away from EQ2 for about 2-3 years now. Recently i have abit free time and decided to come back for that promotion thingy. Even managed to persuade an coworker + another RL friend to give it a try too. My coworker was addicted to WoW previousily and was looking for a change so he downloaded that trial and tested it abit. My client install + patching took a few hours longer and my coworker already started playing meanwhile. First i wondered about the comments he made on voice chat. After i logged in and created a new char i got pretty much shocked how the game went downhill. I mean seriously. Yes, maybe they added tons of new content and expansions but if i wanted to play an casual, laid back and easy solo game i would go for an offline RPG game.Btw. my coworker went back to WoW now. His comment was like "Nice graphics, quests seem to be nice aswell but the overall gameplay is like the original" (... *original* ....). You see, neutral people dont see EQ2 as an independent game with own ideas and design anymore, its just *another* WoW copy anymore <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />P.S. I wont resubscribe to EQ2 with these changes now but im checking out Vanguard now, i just hope that SOE doesnt screws up that game after awhile aswell.

[Beldin_]

<cite>Diknak@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree that they should change the traps on chests. If you are level 15 and trigger a trap on a chest, you better be above 40% health or it might kill you. At level 80, it takes away like half of a percent or something, making them pointless. They should change the penalty to be a percentage of max health.</blockquote><p>Give us back the Glory Glory Days when Deadly Trap could kill you with 100% life, and so you had a real "challenge" to not smash you head constantly onto the desk, if a mob dropped a master in Splitpaw, chest killed you, you were revived out of the zone and had no chance to know what actually was in the chest.</p><p>That is very great "challengening" "dangerous" "risk vs. reward" .. whatever .. Gameplay.</p><p>I think also that random mobs should spawn everywhere in the world if you're AFK, and they should be able to loot your stuff after your dead. Would be a real challange that holds you on your toes to never be AFK for longer than you really need to <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>