Any positive Warlocks around?

[Epictetus]

I used to play a warlock about 2 years ago and enjoyed it a lot. There where some insane aggro issues and wizards out DPS'd us but it was still a fun class to play. Just came back to check the game out again and noticed that these forums have turned even more negative than what i remember (and they where quite glum even back then). So now im wondering - are there any happy warlocks around? Anyone who is still playing their warlock and having fun? How gimped is our class really? I dont care about being the best class as long as im still welcome for raids. I dont care about pvp in this game either (just to broken to bother with). So - are people still having fun with this class and is it still good enough to be useful on raids - are the issues serious enough to make it well known that warlocks are useless?

[Burnout]

still there, still warlock, still fun - and wer're far away from beeing [Removed for Content]

[Windowlicker]

<cite>Burnout wrote:</cite><blockquote>still there, still warlock, still fun - and wer're far away from beeing [Removed for Content]</blockquote>Wrong.Just as a little update for the original poster:- There are almost no multi-mob encounters left in the game.  The only real place that has any to speak of is the new Runnyeye instance.  Even then, there aren't nearly as many as the original Runnyeye.- Expect to be beaten in all other RoK instances by pretty well every scout in the game, including some bards.  - Expect gigantic resist rates in all raid zones, enough that your beaten regularly by non-T1 scouts.So no, we are not far from being [Removed for Content].  We're actually quite [Removed for Content] at the moment.

[Epictetus]

<cite>Burnout wrote:</cite><blockquote>still there, still warlock, still fun - and wer're far away from beeing [Removed for Content]</blockquote>Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Tried it out again for the first time in about 2 years and i have to say i wasnt doing worse now than back then. Lots of new stuff to learn, redid some AA's etc. And of course i forgot all my spell orders completely (dont even know what half of the spells do anymore). But yeah, still really enjoying playing the warlock for sure. Just wanted to make sure the class is still a welcome addition to raid teams for when/if i get to that kind of level. Thats all i really care about - if people will be happy to bring me along as if i learn to play my class well then i dont care about who is topping parses etc.

[Epictetus]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Burnout wrote:</cite><blockquote>still there, still warlock, still fun - and wer're far away from beeing [Removed for Content]</blockquote>Wrong.Just as a little update for the original poster:- There are almost no multi-mob encounters left in the game.  The only real place that has any to speak of is the new Runnyeye instance.  Even then, there aren't nearly as many as the original Runnyeye.- Expect to be beaten in all other RoK instances by pretty well every scout in the game, including some bards.  - Expect gigantic resist rates in all raid zones, enough that your beaten regularly by non-T1 scouts.So no, we are not far from being [Removed for Content].  We're actually quite [Removed for Content] at the moment.</blockquote>So would you say it is bad enough for raid teams pretty much always chosing other classes over warlock or will they still want you in their group if they know you are a decent player?

[Dishlaw2003]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Burnout wrote:</cite><blockquote>still there, still warlock, still fun - and wer're far away from beeing [Removed for Content]</blockquote>Wrong.Just as a little update for the original poster:- There are almost no multi-mob encounters left in the game.  The only real place that has any to speak of is the new Runnyeye instance.  Even then, there aren't nearly as many as the original Runnyeye.- Expect to be beaten in all other RoK instances by pretty well every scout in the game, including some bards.  - Expect gigantic resist rates in all raid zones, enough that your beaten regularly by non-T1 scouts.So no, we are not far from being [Removed for Content].  We're actually quite [Removed for Content] at the moment.</blockquote><p>Ok so Zahne seems a little bitter here, and if he is having this many problems parsing he probably should go back to warlock school.</p><p> I agree that there are scant raid encounters with groups of mobs and that the resist rates are out of whack.  That said, I am still top 3 on the parses in my raid force, even against primarily solo mobs.  The two people that can outparse me are the wizard and assassin (both of whom have their mythics, I do not).  Prior to the mythicals the three of us always battled it out at the top.  So Zahne's portrait that the sky is falling and we warlocks are crap...well it is just plain wrong.  </p><p> In fact, I would argue that overall, warlocks are >>>>>>> than any prior expansion.  We may not have the group zones like LoA where we could create the amazing 15k parses on the linked encounters; however, due to the huge boost in spell crits and spell haste we can parse like champs on solo mobs now. </p><p> Oh, and the only time I have ever been beaten by a bard on a parse is if I lag out or go afk.  Zahne is a bit enveloped in hyperbole in that criticism.</p>

[Araxes]

From a low-end raiding perspective (RoK Tier 1, and the first four nameds in SOH) and speaking strictly of single-mob encounters :If you have support from a Troubador and Illusionist you can parse about even with Rangers, Brigands and Swashies on single-mob encounters in a raid setting, but behind Assassins.  With Time Compression the only people beating you would be Assassins.  (But you're lucky to get TC over a bard or druid.)If you do not have the support of those two classes, you will parse behind Predators (Assassins, Rangers) and Rogues (Brigands, Swashbucklers), as well as quite possibly behind Conjurors, and the odd Bruiser.  I don't think it's parse numbers themselves which tend to make many sorcerers feel somewhat useless -- it's that there are other classes who can do equal or better DPS -- in spite of the fact that sorcerers sacrifice all of that for our damage capabilities.  I won't even go into Assassins.  They are in their own little stratosphere of DPS.I don't think any sorcerer in his right mind actually wants more utility - but we would like to be well above other classes, for having chosen our path.That being said.I have certainly never been out-parsed by a bard, or any class I didn't mention above, for that matter.  On my very worst nights with no support and crap-tastic joust pulls, I am still at least double what a dirge can manage.I am sure there are warlocks and wizards in hardcore guilds that have taken down Byzola and whatnot, who parse exceedingly well, consistently.  Take away their equally geared and hardcore support, and they'd parse about relative to everyone else, I think.  Comparing raiders whose average raid output is 100k to raiders whose average raid output is 40k is like apples and oranges.  All things being equal, though, I see the same complaints from many hardcore raiders sorcerers as I do from the non-hardcore raiders.Group content ... meh.  Stuff dies way too fast to be of any real measure.  Even in the new RE, the twosies can be taken down just as quickly by an Assassin, and the large linked groups down near the bottom are SO pathetically weak that your SK sneezes and they all die.  That's not exactly what I think of as 'challenging' multi-mob content. 

[nighthunter]

Well by no means am I the end all be all of Warlock knowledge, but I do have a lvl 69 lock and I do very well for myself. I was in a group today in OoB with a mentored 80 Illusionist (down to 71), a 69 wizard, a 68 wizard, 69 Templar and a 71 Sk. Even with the Wizards using manaburn on named I topped the parse easily 50% of the time. Now mind you I normally dont care about parsing at all, if I live and the mob does I have done my job. I will say I did get extreme joy fighting for top spot and actually getting it. Personally, I think to many people look at where they are in a parse instead of how much fun they are having playing the class. If you think your class is gimped no matter what upgrades you get you will be gimped...

[Epictetus]

<cite>nighthunter wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well by no means am I the end all be all of Warlock knowledge, but I do have a lvl 69 lock and I do very well for myself. I was in a group today in OoB with a mentored 80 Illusionist (down to 71), a 69 wizard, a 68 wizard, 69 Templar and a 71 Sk. Even with the Wizards using manaburn on named I topped the parse easily 50% of the time. Now mind you I normally dont care about parsing at all, if I live and the mob does I have done my job. I will say I did get extreme joy fighting for top spot and actually getting it. Personally, I think to many people look at where they are in a parse instead of how much fun they are having playing the class. If you think your class is gimped no matter what upgrades you get you will be gimped...</blockquote>This is what im hoping for. I mean, i always enjoyed playing the Warlock so much i dont care if im top of parses or anything like that. Only thing i was concerned about was not getting into groups or later on raids due to people not wanting to give up valuable slots to useless warlocks. As this doesnt seem to be the case im now happily leveling my old character again and am enjoying it quite a bit <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Windowlicker]

<cite>Tylia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Ok so Zahne seems a little bitter here, and if he is having this many problems parsing he probably should go back to warlock school.<p> I agree that there are scant raid encounters with groups of mobs and that the resist rates are out of whack.  That said, I am still top 3 on the parses in my raid force, even against primarily solo mobs.  The two people that can outparse me are the wizard and assassin (both of whom have their mythics, I do not).  Prior to the mythicals the three of us always battled it out at the top.  So Zahne's portrait that the sky is falling and we warlocks are crap...well it is just plain wrong.  </p><p> In fact, I would argue that overall, warlocks are >>>>>>> than any prior expansion.  </p></blockquote>Well, it's pretty easy to see your new.  *really* new.  Apparently your so new, that you never had the opportunity to play a warlock in previous expansions.You "agree that there are scant raid encounters with groups of mobs and that the resist rates are out of whack", yet you think the class is completely fine?Way to contradict yourself.And the fact you think we're doing better then any other expansion, really REALLY shows you have no idea what your talking about.  Also, it's pretty common knowledge that a good Assassin has no problems beating everyone else in every instance due to current game mechanics.  So try again.And feel free to compare your parses to mine someday.

[Araxes]

Epictetus :When talking about warlocks, you HAVE to make a distinction -- running an instance is nowhere near the same as going on a raid.  No one, at least no one who can play their warlock halfway effectively, is going to say that we do bad on an instance run.  Especially a case scenario like OOB which happens to be a great zone for us, numbers-wise.  However, there IS a very large discrepancy among raid parses, and warlocks and wizards alike are simply NOT able to compete with Assassins, and, without support from a Troubador and Illusionist (or a Coercer with Time Compression on you) -- we can barely compete with the other scouts: Brigands, Swashbucklers, Rangers, and even the lesser mage classes like Conjurors, Necromancers, and even Illusionists themselves!This isn't just me blowing air -- this has been argued and debated by everyone from the casual to hardcore, in-game and out of game, between guilds, during raids, and on other forums, and the numbers over the past 3 months flat out prove that scouts, bar-none, are way ahead of the game.  So much so that some raiders debate the NEED to even BRING a sorcerer class, at all.  After all -- why bring one class that requires two in order to be as effective as a scout who requires, well, just to bring himself?Get it?It's not that we feel we're [Removed for Content] in any given heroic instance -- but at the high end raid scene, our numbers, frankly, just don't hold up.  We have power regen and aggro issues which cannot compete with a stacked poison auto-attack.  Gear can only do so much -- when everyone is geared in uber T8 raid loots then, the numbers just grow all relative to one another.  The issue you experience in a casual raid guild where everyone is geared in mixed Legendary / Fabled is the same issue you experience in a hardcore guild where everyone is decked out in the best Fabled./shrugI ranted about this in my blog two weeks ago.  It's all done, for me, really.No one who posts in this forum wants to give up their warlock - not those of us who have been posting here for 4 years, least.  I love my warlock and if you look back at my posts in this forum over the years you can easily see I generally hold the torch for this class.  But hey, reality check: what do we bring, right <b>NOW, </b>that another class can <i>NOT </i>bring?  Certainly not pure DPS.There is your issue.And I'm sorry -- I'm really not intending to de-rail your thread.  I think it's great to try and pick out the positive side of things, too.  But the sad fact of the state of things right now is that ... well, a great deal of us really and truly do feel -- and wizards are in the same boat -- that we just can't offer anything to a raid that another class can't offer more of and do better.Can we parse specatacularly in an instance?  heck yes!  Can we crush the parse on an AOE fight?  YES!  But do we do any of these things better than scouts, particularly Assassins?  Truly?  No, not really.  And without the above-mentioned support?  Not a chance.

[Dishlaw2003]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tylia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Ok so Zahne seems a little bitter here, and if he is having this many problems parsing he probably should go back to warlock school. <p> I agree that there are scant raid encounters with groups of mobs and that the resist rates are out of whack.  That said, I am still top 3 on the parses in my raid force, even against primarily solo mobs.  The two people that can outparse me are the wizard and assassin (both of whom have their mythics, I do not).  Prior to the mythicals the three of us always battled it out at the top.  So Zahne's portrait that the sky is falling and we warlocks are crap...well it is just plain wrong.  </p><p> In fact, I would argue that overall, warlocks are >>>>>>> than any prior expansion.  </p></blockquote>Well, it's pretty easy to see your new.  *really* new.  Apparently your so new, that you never had the opportunity to play a warlock in previous expansions.You "agree that there are scant raid encounters with groups of mobs and that the resist rates are out of whack", yet you think the class is completely fine?Way to contradict yourself.And the fact you think we're doing better then any other expansion, really REALLY shows you have no idea what your talking about.  Also, it's pretty common knowledge that a good Assassin has no problems beating everyone else in every instance due to current game mechanics.  So try again.And feel free to compare your parses to mine someday. </blockquote><p>LOL wow Zahne you really are a whiney little boy aren't you.</p><p> Well lets see, about the "new thing."  Not really, been raiding on my dirge since T5.  Started raiding on my warlock at the end of KOS, so got to do all those zones, EOF and now ROK with my warlock.  </p><p> Do you dispute the fact that we are capable of doing significant more dps as a whole this expansion compared to others?  Cuz I think it is common knowledge that we can rock close to or over 100% spell crit now and spell haste now.  I have seen a considerable jump in overall parses.  Yeah you are right we don't get the great group zones to overinflate our parses like LoA, but what we made up for was an ability to parse on single target mobs...omg solo mobs and we can compete at the top of the parses.</p><p> Though, as you said in your initial post you clearly need some work in your ability to play this class, getting beaten by bards and whatnot.  Good luck with that, hopefully some day you can actually realize that warlocks can perform.  Until then enjoy sucking at a class that I believe is actually pretty good.</p><p> BTW are you the whiney warlock in Imperirum that was complaining about grouping with a wizard because you don't play well with others?  Saw a post about that on Flames.</p>

[Windowlicker]

<cite>Tylia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p> Do you dispute the fact that we are capable of doing significant more dps as a whole this expansion compared to others?  </p></blockquote>Well, if you take your carebear goggles off for two seconds you'll understand that we are vastly underperforming against other classes.Maybe *you* are content having sub-par damage but most of us aren't.  Just because we are doing more "personal" dps then in previous expansions is no indication we are doing as much as we SHOULD be doing vs other classes.Frankly, if you think otherwise you just don't know the class.  And your really not worth responding to.

[Windowlicker]

<cite>Araxes@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>No one who posts in this forum wants to give up their warlock - not those of us who have been posting here for 4 years, least.  I love my warlock and if you look back at my posts in this forum over the years you can easily see I generally hold the torch for this class.  But hey, reality check: what do we bring, right <b>NOW, </b>that another class can <i>NOT </i>bring?  Certainly not pure DPS.There is your issue.</blockquote>This is absolutely 100% correct, even if there are a few warlocks in this thread that have absolutely no idea what they're talking about ... and apparently haven't seen enough of the high-game to know where we stand.

[Dishlaw2003]

<p>Oh Zahne you're so funny.  What I find the most entertaining is your presumption that my guild barely clears PR or some crap like that.  I saw a post on EQ2flames from you on July 5, 2008 indicating:</p><p> Lev down - Imperium 07/05/2008</p><p>Which means, you have actually less experience than myself in the "high end raiding scene."  My guild has been working in VP for a few months now (we dropped Levi for the first time on 3/25 you can look at the LDL forums for the date).  Don't get me wrong, I don't claim to have endless knowledge of the highend raiding scene because in fact, my guild is still working on Nexona.  But, your assertion that <i>you</i> have vastly superior knowledge in the highend game is woefully untrue.</p><p> Here is another tasty treat from Zahne.  For someone who complains about being so underpowered, why is he outparsing his wizard???  From July 4, 2008, on flames:</p><p> Depends who kicks out more damage between the Wizard and Warlock. In our case, I far out damage the wizards in the guild .. so I get it.And for just so old town pwning of Zahne, check out this thread: <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/combat-discussion/26213-sorcerors-now-tier-2-dps.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/combat-dis...tier-2-dps.html</a></p><p>The part in that thread that I find the most entertaining is the fact that he relies on the same argument everytime:  if you think things are ok, then you must be a noob...</p><p> Ok, so for the constructive portion of this thread:</p><p>1.  Yes resist rates are messed up in ROK.  Ever since the two updates when they increased melee hit rates and screwed with wisdom and spell resists, the melees have started encroaching on the sorcerers.  However, this is not a warlock specific problem, and it isn't so severe that you can't parse well against those melees.  In fact, I can't recall a zonewide where I lost to a non-assassin scout.</p><p>Should the resist rates be rolled back?  Yes.  Does this affect only warlocks?  Nope, it hoses all of the squishies. </p><p>2.  Are there less group mobs.  Yep, for the third time I agree with you Zahne there are less.  Does this mean we can't parse, nope.  You can still get good numbers on the solo mobs.  I mean, with your comments about beating your guild wizard Zahne, I would think you would have to concede this point...</p><p>Are zones like LOA and New Tunaria fun?  Yeah, hitting 15-20k rocks on a parse.  But can a warlock do his job without those types of encounters...yep.</p><p>3.  Be lucky that you aren't a summoners.  They really got kicked in the pants this expansion.</p><p>4.  I hope you were using hyperbole when you said you were getting beaten by bards on the parse...nothing else i can say about that, just shake my head.</p><p>5.  Warlocks are fun to play.  Warlocks can parse with the big boys.  Don't be so whiney.</p>

[Editedmind]

Warlock still seems to be a fun niche class to play, though more popular than they used to be I think. I see plenty of ways you can build a decent warlock and there's no reason to get bent out of shape about anything. It just sucks a little in 70+ RoK zones due to lack of grouped encounters, obviously, but that doesn't mean the warlock is now useless.You'll still find plenty of multi target encounters from the lower tiers all the way up through T7.

[Windowlicker]

<cite>Tylia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Oh Zahne you're so funny.  What I find the most entertaining is your presumption that my guild barely clears PR or some crap like that.  I saw a post on EQ2flames from you on July 5, 2008 indicating:</p><p> Lev down - Imperium 07/05/2008</p><p>Which means, you have actually less experience than myself in the "high end raiding scene."  My guild has been working in VP for a few months now (we dropped Levi for the first time on 3/25 you can look at the LDL forums for the date).  Don't get me wrong, I don't claim to have endless knowledge of the highend raiding scene because in fact, my guild is still working on Nexona.  But, your assertion that <i>you</i> have vastly superior knowledge in the highend game is woefully untrue.</p><p> Here is another tasty treat from Zahne.  For someone who complains about being so underpowered, why is he outparsing his wizard???  From July 4, 2008, on flames:</p><p> Depends who kicks out more damage between the Wizard and Warlock. In our case, I far out damage the wizards in the guild .. so I get it.And for just so old town pwning of Zahne, check out this thread: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/combat-discussion/26213-sorcerors-now-tier-2-dps.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/combat-dis...tier-2-dps.html</a></p><p>The part in that thread that I find the most entertaining is the fact that he relies on the same argument everytime:  if you think things are ok, then you must be a noob...</p><p> Ok, so for the constructive portion of this thread:</p><p>1.  Yes resist rates are messed up in ROK.  Ever since the two updates when they increased melee hit rates and screwed with wisdom and spell resists, the melees have started encroaching on the sorcerers.  However, this is not a warlock specific problem, and it isn't so severe that you can't parse well against those melees.  In fact, I can't recall a zonewide where I lost to a non-assassin scout.</p><p>Should the resist rates be rolled back?  Yes.  Does this affect only warlocks?  Nope, it hoses all of the squishies. </p><p>2.  Are there less group mobs.  Yep, for the third time I agree with you Zahne there are less.  Does this mean we can't parse, nope.  You can still get good numbers on the solo mobs.  I mean, with your comments about beating your guild wizard Zahne, I would think you would have to concede this point...</p><p>Are zones like LOA and New Tunaria fun?  Yeah, hitting 15-20k rocks on a parse.  But can a warlock do his job without those types of encounters...yep.</p><p>3.  Be lucky that you aren't a summoners.  They really got kicked in the pants this expansion.</p><p>4.  I hope you were using hyperbole when you said you were getting beaten by bards on the parse...nothing else i can say about that, just shake my head.</p><p>5.  Warlocks are fun to play.  Warlocks can parse with the big boys.  Don't be so whiney.</p></blockquote>Here's a few points for you:- Because I choose not to dedicate myself to raiding over the 4 times a week I currently do, certainly doesn't make you a better player, or more experienced with this class.  If you think so, I'm sorry but your wrong.  Also, the fact that I'm in the last zone in the game but not as "Far" in as you .. really wont' change anything.  I've been here since release, and have played my warlock since 2006.  I've been a guild leader, and a raid leader through the past two expansions as well.- I do more damage on average then our Wizards do, but that's because I'm well geared and know my class.  I raid more then they do, and I pay attention more then they do.  That's no indication we're currently working as intended either.  When I raid, I'm using a nearly perfect casting order in a stacked group.  I know every last spell, and exactly what it's going to do. - Summoners are about as fine as we are at the moment.  In fact our Necro seems to have no problems topping all our mages without any special buffs of any kind.- When *I* discuss balance, I'm not just talking about raiding.  I enjoy Solo play, Group play and Raiding.  So you'll forgive me if I'm unhappy if any one of those three are not working as intended.  Our Group instance DPS for example is horrible compared to what it should be. What makes this game enjoyable for me *is* competing on the parse.  And I enjoy being able to do well on a class that isn't known for single target damage.I really find it amusing though you spent so much time cyber-stalking me across the internet.  I'm sure you've found it's no secret that I've gone from extremely happy with this class, to somewhat tired of it.  I really love my warlock, and I'm not prepared to just let it slip away. It's terrific that you enjoy your class and don't find there to be any problems with it.  I for one, grow tired of watching patch after patch roll by without seeing anything notable for us.We won't see any "positive" fixes for this class without constructive feedback.

[Dishlaw2003]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tylia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Oh Zahne you're so funny.  What I find the most entertaining is your presumption that my guild barely clears PR or some crap like that.  I saw a post on EQ2flames from you on July 5, 2008 indicating:</p><p> Lev down - Imperium 07/05/2008</p><p>Which means, you have actually less experience than myself in the "high end raiding scene."  My guild has been working in VP for a few months now (we dropped Levi for the first time on 3/25 you can look at the LDL forums for the date).  Don't get me wrong, I don't claim to have endless knowledge of the highend raiding scene because in fact, my guild is still working on Nexona.  But, your assertion that <i>you</i> have vastly superior knowledge in the highend game is woefully untrue.</p><p> Here is another tasty treat from Zahne.  For someone who complains about being so underpowered, why is he outparsing his wizard???  From July 4, 2008, on flames:</p><p> Depends who kicks out more damage between the Wizard and Warlock. In our case, I far out damage the wizards in the guild .. so I get it.And for just so old town pwning of Zahne, check out this thread: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/combat-discussion/26213-sorcerors-now-tier-2-dps.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/combat-dis...tier-2-dps.html</a></p><p>The part in that thread that I find the most entertaining is the fact that he relies on the same argument everytime:  if you think things are ok, then you must be a noob...</p><p> Ok, so for the constructive portion of this thread:</p><p>1.  Yes resist rates are messed up in ROK.  Ever since the two updates when they increased melee hit rates and screwed with wisdom and spell resists, the melees have started encroaching on the sorcerers.  However, this is not a warlock specific problem, and it isn't so severe that you can't parse well against those melees.  In fact, I can't recall a zonewide where I lost to a non-assassin scout.</p><p>Should the resist rates be rolled back?  Yes.  Does this affect only warlocks?  Nope, it hoses all of the squishies. </p><p>2.  Are there less group mobs.  Yep, for the third time I agree with you Zahne there are less.  Does this mean we can't parse, nope.  You can still get good numbers on the solo mobs.  I mean, with your comments about beating your guild wizard Zahne, I would think you would have to concede this point...</p><p>Are zones like LOA and New Tunaria fun?  Yeah, hitting 15-20k rocks on a parse.  But can a warlock do his job without those types of encounters...yep.</p><p>3.  Be lucky that you aren't a summoners.  They really got kicked in the pants this expansion.</p><p>4.  I hope you were using hyperbole when you said you were getting beaten by bards on the parse...nothing else i can say about that, just shake my head.</p><p>5.  Warlocks are fun to play.  Warlocks can parse with the big boys.  Don't be so whiney.</p></blockquote>Here's a few points for you:- Because I choose not to dedicate myself to raiding over the 4 times a week I currently do, certainly doesn't make you a better player, or more experienced with this class.  If you think so, I'm sorry but your wrong.  Also, the fact that I'm in the last zone in the game but not as "Far" in as you .. really wont' change anything.  I've been here since release, and have played my warlock since 2006.  I've been a guild leader, and a raid leader through the past two expansions as well.- I do more damage on average then our Wizards do, but that's because I'm well geared and know my class.  I raid more then they do, and I pay attention more then they do.  That's no indication we're currently working as intended either.  When I raid, I'm using a nearly perfect casting order in a stacked group.  I know every last spell, and exactly what it's going to do. - Summoners are about as fine as we are at the moment.  In fact our Necro seems to have no problems topping all our mages without any special buffs of any kind.- When *I* discuss balance, I'm not just talking about raiding.  I enjoy Solo play, Group play and Raiding.  So you'll forgive me if I'm unhappy if any one of those three are not working as intended.  Our Group instance DPS for example is horrible compared to what it should be. What makes this game enjoyable for me *is* competing on the parse.  And I enjoy being able to do well on a class that isn't known for single target damage.I really find it amusing though you spent so much time cyber-stalking me across the internet.  I'm sure you've found it's no secret that I've gone from extremely happy with this class, to somewhat tired of it.  I really love my warlock, and I'm not prepared to just let it slip away. It's terrific that you enjoy your class and don't find there to be any problems with it.  I for one, grow tired of watching patch after patch roll by without seeing anything notable for us.We won't see any "positive" fixes for this class without constructive feedback.</blockquote><p>Zahne</p><p> Here is the problem with your posting and your arguments throughout this entire thread.  You presume way too much (and incorrectly) and you are the biggest "omg the sky is falling" person I have ever seen on the forums.  IN response to your above:</p><p>1.  My guild raids three times a week.  We are not a hardcore, raid 5x a week type of guild.  We are casual and we have fun.  I never tried to assert my over dominance or over experience over you until after you made claims in your prior posts that (a) I must be a new warlock and (b) that I have not experienced end game reading.  Maybe you should re-read your prior posts to refresh your memory as to the claims I was disputing.  </p><p>2.  Ok fair enough.  But early you were saying you were getting beaten by bards and all types of scouts and whatnot and claiming that we were incredibly gimped.  As I have stated repeatedly, yes we have issues.  Yes resists rates are bunked.  Yes many of the issues you raised in your other thread are valid things that our class can improve on.  HOWEVER, we are not the red-headed stepchild that you made us out to be in this post.  You made us sound to that poor inquiring lad that we were unworthy of a raid spot and that we were a horribly ineffective class.  Which is simply untrue.</p><p> 3.  I have actually seen exactly the opposite results with our summoners.  If you review eq2flames on this issue, I think you will see that most people find that summoners are even more bunked than us as well.  As an antecdote the summoners in our guild were topping the parses last expansion.  This expansion, they are behind all of the sorcs, preds, rogues and some of the illys.  I don't believe that their skill at playing this game suddenly dropped off from EoF to RoK, I think they got shafted where others got boosts. e.g. they have no additional beneficial AAs that they could pick up like Sorcs did, their spell crit and other mods only affects personal dps and not the dps of their pet and all the crazy damage shields that kill their dumbfires (which you admit is a huge problem for warlocks, they are even more reliant on their dumbfires).</p><p>4.  I guess, I will concede to you the group/solo issues.  I guess I generally look at how a class plays by its role in a raid and not in other facets of the game.  Probably because my preference for play time is raiding.</p><p> 5.  I would hardly call going to one of your posts on eq2flames, selecting your name and looking at the first 10 posts that came up by you as cyber-stalking.  But if you want to twist it to make it look like that feel free.</p><p> Finally, I agree with you Zahne in that there are things that can be improved on in this class.  You brought up a very constructive post in this forum and I think the majority of your ideas there are helpful:  Resist rates, more group encounters, a meaningful utility buff (like propogation or a group reuse reduce buff) all great ideas.</p><p>My whole point here, is that I believe you were misconstruing and overemphasizing the limitations in our class.  I think you will concede that if the class is played by a talented player you can accomplish a ton with this class.  Yeah we have stuff holding us back, which class doesn't (well apart from assasin's who are this expansion's golden child).  </p><p>I don't like seeing people come in to the warlock forums and respond by saying, or implying that our class is a horrible excuse for a class that no one will want to group/raid with.  That is too much doom and gloom right there, and not true as to the class.</p>

[Windowlicker]

<p>I really have better things to do then play "Fight in the warlock forums".  </p><p>- As I stated orginally, there are "instances" in RoK where it is quite possible for a Bard to out parse us.  Maybe you haven't seen this, but I have.  By all means, feel free to check my parses sometime, I'm no slacker.  Maybe the bards you've been grouping with aren't doing the damage that my friends are.</p><p>- If you would like to understand the hostility behind my posts to you, why not re-read your original post.  Ask yourself if there's anything in there that may have set me off.  How could you have approached this differently?  </p><p>- Making us "Sound like" and saying that we "Are" something are completely different.  You can't string me up because I made us "sound" like something, when I never said we were.</p><p>- I will concede that any class played by a skilled player can accomplish great things.  That's no indication proper balance is present.</p><p>And if the class was horrible, do you think I'd be making the effort to bring our issues to light?  Probably not.  I'd be playing my Guard.  </p><p>So how about we start focusing on fixes for our weak points.  Saying that "We're Fine" is innacurate.</p>

[inshiningarmor]

<p> Locks are fun to play, but I made mins for DPS.   I have an 80 Assassin, Swashie, Dirge, Defiler, Gaurdian, Templar, Warden, and Warlock.    2 Classes were intended for DPS and only 1 delivers in that.   My assassin can double the DPS in groups that my Lock can do.   Even though I can put up top 5 numbers with my Warlock in raids, w( Rangers and Assassins ) we do not use sorcerers because they lack any utility.   Why bring along an aggro magnet when you can bring a class that can push a little more DPS without pulling aggro, or a class that is slightly below in DPS and adds a TON more utility?</p><p>    Not to sink your boat, but you will have a VERY VERY tough time finding a raiding guild that will take a Warlock unless you are TOP notch DPS.   Group settings I will not group with a Lock with my Gaurd because it is not worth fighting for aggro to those who do not go INT line.</p>

[Deadeyes]

It is sad that people can't just play and have fun without crying over a DPS meter.

[Windowlicker]

<cite>Deadeyes wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is sad that people can't just play and have fun without crying over a DPS meter. </blockquote>Your not even 70 yet, and your still in an expansion where we're fine.  Level a bit and perhaps you'll see why there are some unhappy people.At 65, frankly you can't comment.

[mrsma]

<p>At lv 72 + the game for people that do not raid is in my opinion a total waste of time and as such have rolled 3 new toons to start off again. Mass gank fest in KP followed by another gank fest followed by another gank.</p><p>If you do play regular and can commit to 3 evenings a week 4hours at a time then sure top tier content "i know" is awesome. But for the casual play who is not in a raiding guild - Roll a new toon :o) .</p><p>You will remember how much fun this game is !! </p>

[Deadeyes]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deadeyes wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is sad that people can't just play and have fun without crying over a DPS meter. </blockquote>Your not even 70 yet, and your still in an expansion where we're fine. Level a bit and perhaps you'll see why there are some unhappy people.At 65, frankly you can't comment.</blockquote>It was simply an observation. You dont have to be a 80 lock to notice it.

[revren]

Hey Hey        Deadeyes, to some people, myself included part of the fun is seeing how much we can get out of our char.  We look at our armor choices, and our spell roations, and part of that is seeing how we stack up with the other DPS class's of the game.  There is nothing wrong with never looking at a parse ever, and in turn nothing wrong with Min/Max you char. to its optimal performace. The Comment about being in Tier 8 is becouse in ROK for the most part there are very few Multiple Mob Encouters , the bread and butter for our class. Welcome Home Rev

[Windowlicker]

<cite>Deadeyes wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deadeyes wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is sad that people can't just play and have fun without crying over a DPS meter. </blockquote>Your not even 70 yet, and your still in an expansion where we're fine. Level a bit and perhaps you'll see why there are some unhappy people.At 65, frankly you can't comment.</blockquote>It was simply an observation. You dont have to be a 80 lock to notice it. </blockquote>Well, to me it's pretty sad that some people can play a game like this without caring what your stats look like.  It's equally sad when people don't bother upgrading spells, or figuring out what their toon is capable of on a parser.Guess it depends what side of the coin your on eh?

[Xedex]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Burnout wrote:</cite><blockquote>still there, still warlock, still fun - and wer're far away from beeing [Removed for Content]</blockquote>Wrong.Just as a little update for the original poster:- There are almost no multi-mob encounters left in the game.  The only real place that has any to speak of is the new Runnyeye instance.  Even then, there aren't nearly as many as the original Runnyeye.- Expect to be beaten in all other RoK instances by pretty well every scout in the game, including some bards.  - Expect gigantic resist rates in all raid zones, enough that your beaten regularly by non-T1 scouts.So no, we are not far from being [Removed for Content].  We're actually quite [Removed for Content] at the moment.</blockquote><p>If you are getting beatin out by bards on the parses...then you need to reevaluate yourself. I dont know about you but im in top 5 in my guilds parses consistantly with an average of about 5.5k+ depending on the encounter. Only classes consistantly beating me on my guilds parses is Swashbuckler, Ranger, Assassin and every once in awhile our Necro when he Lifeburn's.</p><p> Resist rates need a slight fixing, its stupid to be dependant on ONE class to fix it. I was getting resisted a ton before we got a brigand, after not so much.</p><p>EDIT: PS i think the warlock class is fine the way it is. SOE just needs to fix the resist rates.</p>

[Scrappe]

<p>For my own part, I think the props nerf gimped us, and we're missing our T5 special (akin to the Wizards group evac), but I dont have DPS problems. I post some pretty good numbers, but I feel you need to be 80 and have at least 130 AAs and some fairly nice equipment to be able to reasonably say that. However, my good numbers post whenever there's more than one mob. Kunark blows for us because locks don't Dev consideration and lack of group encounters lowers our numbers. Perhaps the next xpac will fix that, but it's too bad we're so inflexible that we have to wait for an xpac to possibly fix our problems. </p><p>I love the lore around being a warlock, which is what keeps me from wanting to be a wizard with all the advantages they get. I was a wizard for a while, thinking that the grass was greener, but I just found it to be so boring and stale, so here I remain <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Xedex]

for the record Propagation was never nerfed, it was fixed. Yes it sucks. Hopefully in the future have an AA or a warlock only item(that doesnt suck) that can enhance the ability to work on items as well.

[AikonHalcy]

<p>Positive warlock here  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[ManOnAMission]

<p>Warlocks are still fun after all the nerfs. The achievement lines really add a diversity on how you want to spec him out. My only 80 is a Warlock. You can really control the tide of a encounter battle if ya know how to use more then just your offensive attacks. Of course the REAL FUN is with the encounter nukes anyways on top! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[SageGaspar]

I love warlocks. They just need more encounters to flex their muscles on. It's not a class problem so much as a game design problem and hopefully they know to keep this in mind now.The one change I would really really get behind is AE immunity on the dumbfires. Poor lil' broodlings.

[DwarvesR]

<p>When a group is LFM DPS they never turn me down unless they already have a warlock in group (and sometimes not even then).  That would indicate that for all the complaining we do in our forums about "lesser dps" and our frustration at a lack of AE encounters in RoK that we still do well enough that a group needing dps is happy to have  us along.</p><p>I'd be lying if I didn't say that there were times I've thought about betraying to wizard, but then . . . I solo well enough, and I'm happy enough in groups, and well. . I haven't been able to raid for a long time and always raid on my healers or coercer anyway so I'll never get my mythical, so that's not a consideration (though I'll admit that on paper ours looks mighty crappy compared to the wizard one).</p><p>And so, becuz I don't want to have to get all the AD3's and try to replace the T8 masters I have acquired -- and becuz I can crank out some nice dps on the AE fights in VoES at least -- I'm sticking with my warlock.  Still enjoying her, and thus "still positive."</p><p>And hey -- my warlock was created for the express purpose of being a sales mule, but she was my 1st 80.  Means she must be marginally fun <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[hoosierdaddy]

<cite>Araxes@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>But hey, reality check: what do we bring, right <b>NOW, </b>that another class can <i>NOT </i>bring?</blockquote><p>I just asked myself this very question recently and the answer, after the nerf to Propagations, is nothing.</p><p>That was the straw that broke this camel's back. In order to maintain the class's unique flavor, they should've changed the wording on the effect of Propagations instead of the AA, itself.</p><p>I played my warlock in a top worldwide raid guild since November '04 and finally called it quits after it was obvious that the class would never get any love from developers.</p><p>Saw somebody else write this in another post and it's the truth: "The day sorcerors are balanced with melee classes is the day that a dev actually rolls one."</p><p>As it is, there's nothing left to be positive about. There are many, many classes who can contribute more to a raid than warlocks and can still equal or out-dps us.</p>