Suggestion: Work Orders [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

View Full Version : Suggestion: Work Orders

Kigneer

06-26-2008, 03:02 PM

Disclaimer: I maybe new to EQII, but I'm not new to MMOs, and especially the crafting world.Since this game employs a 24/7 Broker, and our stores are basically our homes itself, is it possible for the devs to code a work order system for crafters, too (with pickups at their homes -- at least make these store displays/in home craft stations have a purpose)?Say Johann Dragonslayer wants a special component made. His choice is to try to buy it ready made off the broker at a price he could never afford (even with all the gold in his bank); or, IF he could try to find a crafter to make it for him at 3am (the time he has to play). With a work order system, he could shop pricing; order his component; set a delivery date [regular or rush], and everyone would be happy. For on-the-spot making of goods, he can come over to our "shop" (which doesn't move all over the game!) and get his equipment made there.This is especially true for newbies needing adept III spells, who have tons of mats to make them, but can't find a scholar to make them into spells (or any crafter for other goods, too), at a time they're playing.The broker system in this game throws many ready made gear into the system, with few buyers as it's not special (would love to have the ability to not only have Made by: but to have Made for: line in a product line too -- this would be sweet for making bulk orders for guilds).I played another MMO, that even bot ridden, it had live breathing people to buy stuff on a commission basis. This made coming online to play as a crafter a treat, as I would be actually playing a crafter, not a fighter who, between raiding, dabbles in making something to sell so impersonally. Storefronts are suppose to be made so crafters can meet/greet/show/and hope to make a regular customer out of a player, afterall!

06-26-2008, 03:09 PM

The reason for the broker is so that "johnny" doesn't have to send a work order to someone to have something crafted. What I find is if folks are activly trying to seek out a "crafter" odds are that item is already on the broker but they just don't want to pay the "high"(tm) price for the item. Although usualy when folks see the price of the mats they realise it wasn't that high of a price to begin with. The subtle issue of not being able to find a crafter when they are play, shrug I haven't had that problem, then again I'm in a guild where we have the appropriate crafters to make the spells. As to gear yea that can be hit or miss, but again I defer to the broker it's there for a reason.Also I'm not trying to poo poo your idea, just commenting that the broker is there for a reason. For sales during those times you might not be on.Ohh and if this is a thread about how one can "never" afford anything on the broker that is complete bull. Check the newbie forum and read the newbie threads on how to make plat (yes I said plat not gold and I mean handfulls of plat not just one or two). The short answer is just sell your lowlevel treasured or better items and it will be comming your way fast.Also I could mention that the really low levels (below 30) go so fast that you really don't need to invest into AD3's or MC gear. Heck my warlock was wearing TD gear till he hit 42 when I redecked out his gear to be MC, and he will be in that level 42 MC gear till he hits KP and starts getting nice gear rewards again. Also he is running 99% ap4 spells (basically ad1's just made by a crafter is all) and he's doing just fine. Although he will have ad3's for his level 71+ spells but that's a different issue.

Spyderbite

06-26-2008, 03:23 PM

Most of the stuff I craft is for other players. I don't see a need for this system. I sell my junk and spare stuff on the vendor. My repeat customers send me a mail with their order and the rare/fuel costs/tip and I mail back the item. New customers hit me up while I'm working in the tradeskill instances. Just like the old days.. face to face, meet and greet.Lets not take yet more of the interactivity out of this MMO. We should be encouraging more face to face interaction.

Kigneer

06-26-2008, 04:05 PM

<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote>The reason for the broker is so that "johnny" doesn't have to send a work order to someone to have something crafted. What I find is if folks are activly trying to seek out a "crafter" odds are that item is already on the broker but they just don't want to pay the "high"(tm) price for the item. Although usualy when folks see the price of the mats they realise it wasn't that high of a price to begin with.</blockquote>Actually, the price for mats in this game doesn't reflect the time it is to mine/harvest them. Took over 20 minutes to get a harvest out of the other game, and that was at most 4 items per plant (no bonus 5 or 10) and just 1 item of metal or wood. It justified selling the highest mats for 500 to 800 gps. In this game, all you have to do is run around and get the raws yourself -- within 2hrs you'll have over 200 of every tier item you need -- and anyone can level harvesting/mining/woodcutting.Since there's so much mats floating around, and anyone can get them, it means everyone has the mats to make the end product. I have so many rares that can be used in level 2/3 tier equipment, yet no crafter to make them, for example.It would make sense to have a work order ability, even for these level 80 crafters -- more business. Besides, goods sitting on the shelf not selling isn't helping anyone.Oh, and before I forget -- the "Made for:" tag just couldn't work for nobody. High level customization = high level perks. It requires someone to be online to make the goods, but that will actually help this game, since hardly anyone IS online playing!

06-26-2008, 04:18 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote>The reason for the broker is so that "johnny" doesn't have to send a work order to someone to have something crafted. What I find is if folks are activly trying to seek out a "crafter" odds are that item is already on the broker but they just don't want to pay the "high"(tm) price for the item. Although usualy when folks see the price of the mats they realise it wasn't that high of a price to begin with.</blockquote>Actually, the price for mats in this game doesn't reflect the time it is to mine/harvest them. Took over 20 minutes to get a harvest out of the other game, and that was at most 4 items per plant (no bonus 5 or 10) and just 1 item of metal or wood. It justified selling the highest mats for 500 to 800 gps. In this game, all you have to do is run around and get the raws yourself -- within 2hrs you'll have over 200 of every tier item you need -- and anyone can level harvesting/mining/woodcutting.Since there's so much mats floating around, and anyone can get them, it means everyone has the mats to make the end product. I have so many rares that can be used in level 2/3 tier equipment, yet no crafter to make them, for example.It would make sense to have a work order ability, even for these level 80 crafters -- more business. Besides, goods sitting on the shelf not selling isn't helping anyone.Oh, and before I forget -- the "Made for:" tag just couldn't work for nobody. High level customization = high level perks. It requires someone to be online to make the goods, but that will actually help this game, since hardly anyone IS online playing!</blockquote>First off while YES anyone can level their harvesting skills I find alot of folks just don't. Pure and simple it isn't required or needed to make massive amounts of plat in this game. You could just sell those raws and rares and use that coin to just buy what you need off the broker, you will find that the price difference from the rare to the final product is fairly marginal. Atleast I have on several occasions, there are exceptions but then again there always are.And again as to not being able to find anyone online that can make you those items, I just find it really odd. Considering that I don't seem to have a problem finding crafters for the "basics", go beyond that yea it might take a bit longer. Also you do realize there is this cool look for work flag that folks can set to indicate they are currently crafting and activly looking to make folks stuff?As to "goods sitting on the shelf not selling" Well most crafters are more then smart enough to only make a few of the "slow" moving items, and they make more of what sells good. Broker space really isn't an issue unless you personally decide you want to have 1 of everything you can possibly make on the broker, which while I can see folks wanting to do that just is a very poor model to follow imo.

Eveningsong

06-26-2008, 04:42 PM

I think it would be nice if there was a system where someone could put out a request for an item to be made, and indicate what they were willing to pay, then a crafter could look and see if there were any orders that they'd want to fill. The sort of system that the OP is describing isn't really feasible. First off, while any crafter could have a setup to take orders, there would be no guarantee that they would a) accept the order or b) fulfill the order in the desired time. A player could end up tying up valuable materials waiting on someone who may or may not ever login again, and in the meantime wouldn't be able to try to order from anyone else. The same thing could happen now, of course. I'm sure there's been cases when someone has emailed a crafter asking for a custom order and they never responded, but I believe the mail may eventually be returned in that case (not entirey sure about that). But the existing commission system is a safe way to get a combine done, with minimal risk for either the crafter or customer. The problem is finding someone available to do the work on commission of course, but that would still be an issue no matter what system you had (there's no guarantee that you'd find someone setup shop to make T3 plate armour specifically, for instance). A good way to get in contact with a crafter is to visit the Good_Crafting or Evil_Crafting (depending on your faction) channels, or the Good/Evil_Trading channels and advertise for someone. And as someone else mentioned, do periodic /who all lfw to see who is actively looking to do crafting commissions. Or look on the broker for the crafter name of someone who has made the item(s) you are looking for. Often people will craft on commission for much less than they put on the broker since their personal funds/materials are not being tied up waiting for something to sell, especially if you provide fuel and materials.

Kigneer

06-26-2008, 04:45 PM

<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off while YES anyone can level their harvesting skills I find alot of folks just don't. Pure and simple it isn't required or needed to make massive amounts of plat in this game. You could just sell those raws and rares and use that coin to just buy what you need off the broker, you will find that the price difference from the rare to the final product is fairly marginal.</blockquote>In 6 days game time (and less than a day of it harvesting), I amassed 105 rares (using about 10 to experiment with) -- out of 1,700,000+ accounts, that translates to about 130,000 range in harvesting ranking worldwide. I could trade rares for services, but with a blank faceless broker that isn't possible. So I'll amass hundreds of rares, only to store away.The system is broken when I have more rares than can use them.True, I can make tier 2 and 3 MC goods, but the rares are too valuable for a tier that is so quickly out grown (why do you established players only think about "end game" stuff? Even asking about best weapons and armor per tier, comes off with an answer about level 76+ equipment). It's a waste to me, but for a crafter needing rares and not thinking so, how do I communicate to them? Not spamming chat; there's no place here for ads; so that leaves holding on to a warehouse of mats.A work order system has it's merits. Have to see beyond your own bottom line, and what's best for the game overall. Participation helps. A game on automatic doesn't keep people in it playing for long.

Kigneer

06-26-2008, 05:04 PM

<cite>Eveningsong wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it would be nice if there was a system where someone could put out a request for an item to be made, and indicate what they were willing to pay, then a crafter could look and see if there were any orders that they'd want to fill. The sort of system that the OP is describing isn't really feasible. First off, while any crafter could have a setup to take orders, there would be no guarantee that they would a) accept the order or b) fulfill the order in the desired time. A player could end up tying up valuable materials waiting on someone who may or may not ever login again, and in the meantime wouldn't be able to try to order from anyone else.</blockquote>Which is why escrow exists (a third party bank, built into the UI). Someone doesn't logon again in 7 days, forfeits their gold/plat held in escrow, to the crafter. Make it work like the house upkeep fee.If you do look at it, the folks that do need to be buying stuff this way are lower tiered folks with more mats than gold; high tiered folks who need custom work (adorns and what not). The rerolls usually have the gold to buy anything outright anyway.The point is participation. In a dead world, that has maybe one crafter willing to do anything on at the time you're on (if they're not grouping or raiding while they're online), means whoever is in need can't get their work done. Last night I had someone buy a lot of my provisions. I would've liked to have known what else they would've needed -- made to order (not guessing). Couldn't tell, since they were offline when I was online. If I had a work order form, I would've known what they wanted and stopped to have whip up a batch. They would've got what they needed, I would've gotten paid (and if not in gold, XP with their mats). Win-win for anyone. The mechanism is in place to do this already (copy and paste code even). Borrow some from banking; some from housing and some from the mail system and you have the UI. But this niche needs to be filled, or folks will just go without -- and in gaming that is a killer for participating.

06-26-2008, 05:16 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off while YES anyone can level their harvesting skills I find alot of folks just don't. Pure and simple it isn't required or needed to make massive amounts of plat in this game. You could just sell those raws and rares and use that coin to just buy what you need off the broker, you will find that the price difference from the rare to the final product is fairly marginal.</blockquote>In 6 days game time (and less than a day of it harvesting), I amassed 105 rares (using about 10 to experiment with) -- out of 1,700,000+ accounts, that translates to about 130,000 range in harvesting ranking worldwide. I could trade rares for services, but with a blank faceless broker that isn't possible. So I'll amass hundreds of rares, only to store away.The system is broken when I have more rares than can use them.This is only the case for very lowlevel farming, as in T1 and T2, once you start going out from there it becomes much harder to get rares. There is another thread on harvesting that gives some indication of how the tables are defined to determin your odds of getting a raw, a material, or a rare. So the system isn't broken you just need to level more.True, I can make tier 2 and 3 MC goods, but the rares are too valuable for a tier that is so quickly out grown (why do you established players only think about "end game" stuff? Even asking about best weapons and armor per tier, comes off with an answer about level 76+ equipment). It's a waste to me, but for a crafter needing rares and not thinking so, how do I communicate to them? Not spamming chat; there's no place here for ads; so that leaves holding on to a warehouse of mats.My statement with folks are only in T2 and T3 for short periods of time is based on it only takes a day or so to hit level 20.. Ok to ME that isn't very long, I am not trying to insinuate that everyone RUSHS to the level cap, but just general questing get's you those early levels fast. THEY ARE MENT to be fast, they are the early learning of the game. ARound your 30's to 40's it takes a bit more work, and so on as you go up the levels.A work order system has it's merits. Have to see beyond your own bottom line, and what's best for the game overall. Participation helps. A game on automatic doesn't keep people in it playing for long.I never said It didn't have any merit, I just said there is already a system in place that solves this problem. Ok lets look at this another way, what you are proposeing would require a "crafter" to want to nibble at a cheapy workorder request. Cheapy meaning they aren't even willing to put up a good tip, so the incentive for a crafter to do that is fairly low. Now if the person puts up a good tip then the incentive goes higher for the crafter to make it, but then again at that point why not just buy it off the broker since it would be effectivly the same. NOW with all of those cheapy tips or no tip orders sitting around all that does is create cluter and more drag on a system that doesn't need more drag. I'm an truely sorry if you are still whineing about plat, I've told you how to aquire it fairly easily, heck I think the lower levels it's actually alot easier to aquire plat then as you get higher level, until you get to the 70's when things actually sell good again. Yes it requires effort then again everything does. Raising my tradeskill levels took alot of time and effort that I don't want to make stuff for other folks for free. There are exceptions to that point I have made/gave away a bunch of free stuff to "new" players and to guildies, but that is MY decision if i want to do that. Also here's a hint, IF YOU THINK that the prices of stuff on the broker are "sooooooo overpriced' why don't you level a crafter and start making and selling those items. I can bet you that you will have a new perspective on the whole thing once you do that.</blockquote>So while this thread does have some points I hate to tell you, this is not a unique thread. Search this forum and you will find the same sort of idea has been posted many times, and like what I am saying is the reasons it keeps falling flat on it's face.

SilkenKidden

06-26-2008, 06:28 PM

<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ohh and if this is a thread about how one can "never" afford anything on the broker that is complete bull. </blockquote>Sheesh, Ohiv. Already you are beating up on the guy. Give him a chance to say something offensive first. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Kigneer

06-26-2008, 06:31 PM

<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off while YES anyone can level their harvesting skills I find alot of folks just don't. Pure and simple it isn't required or needed to make massive amounts of plat in this game. You could just sell those raws and rares and use that coin to just buy what you need off the broker, you will find that the price difference from the rare to the final product is fairly marginal.</blockquote>In 6 days game time (and less than a day of it harvesting), I amassed 105 rares (using about 10 to experiment with) -- out of 1,700,000+ accounts, that translates to about 130,000 range in harvesting ranking worldwide. I could trade rares for services, but with a blank faceless broker that isn't possible. So I'll amass hundreds of rares, only to store away.The system is broken when I have more rares than can use them.This is only the case for very lowlevel farming, as in T1 and T2, once you start going out from there it becomes much harder to get rares. There is another thread on harvesting that gives some indication of how the tables are defined to determin your odds of getting a raw, a material, or a rare. So the system isn't broken you just need to level more.True, I can make tier 2 and 3 MC goods, but the rares are too valuable for a tier that is so quickly out grown (why do you established players only think about "end game" stuff? Even asking about best weapons and armor per tier, comes off with an answer about level 76+ equipment). It's a waste to me, but for a crafter needing rares and not thinking so, how do I communicate to them? Not spamming chat; there's no place here for ads; so that leaves holding on to a warehouse of mats.My statement with folks are only in T2 and T3 for short periods of time is based on it only takes a day or so to hit level 20.. Ok to ME that isn't very long, I am not trying to insinuate that everyone RUSHS to the level cap, but just general questing get's you those early levels fast. THEY ARE MENT to be fast, they are the early learning of the game. ARound your 30's to 40's it takes a bit more work, and so on as you go up the levels.A work order system has it's merits. Have to see beyond your own bottom line, and what's best for the game overall. Participation helps. A game on automatic doesn't keep people in it playing for long.I never said It didn't have any merit, I just said there is already a system in place that solves this problem. Ok lets look at this another way, what you are proposeing would require a "crafter" to want to nibble at a cheapy workorder request. Cheapy meaning they aren't even willing to put up a good tip, so the incentive for a crafter to do that is fairly low. Now if the person puts up a good tip then the incentive goes higher for the crafter to make it, but then again at that point why not just buy it off the broker since it would be effectivly the same. NOW with all of those cheapy tips or no tip orders sitting around all that does is create cluter and more drag on a system that doesn't need more drag. I'm an truely sorry if you are still whineing about plat, I've told you how to aquire it fairly easily, heck I think the lower levels it's actually alot easier to aquire plat then as you get higher level, until you get to the 70's when things actually sell good again. Yes it requires effort then again everything does. Raising my tradeskill levels took alot of time and effort that I don't want to make stuff for other folks for free. There are exceptions to that point I have made/gave away a bunch of free stuff to "new" players and to guildies, but that is MY decision if i want to do that. Also here's a hint, IF YOU THINK that the prices of stuff on the broker are "sooooooo overpriced' why don't you level a crafter and start making and selling those items. I can bet you that you will have a new perspective on the whole thing once you do that.</blockquote>So while this thread does have some points I hate to tell you, this is not a unique thread. Search this forum and you will find the same sort of idea has been posted many times, and like what I am saying is the reasons it keeps falling flat on it's face.</blockquote>Why do folks here quote within quotes? Not only is it bad posting form (as it's not originator's text), it's even overlooked -- especially in odd colors that clash with the background.To answer your question about rares: in 2hrs of running around gathering tier 3 rares, my average is about 4 an hour (the other night it was 6 per hour -- finding out the best times to get them too is the best trick of them all). Fixing to go after tier 4 goods tonight, and will see how the rares stack up there next.I'm used to harvesting, as I played a Planter in the other MMOs, so can go through a level getting everything under the sun for 8hrs straight. So it won't be an issue if I will get rares, but how many (if you see me out there, say "Hi!"...lol). It still plays out -- I'll have more rares, than I can do with them.But either way, the rares will pop up, and I'll see if I have 1,000 in stock by tier 5. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

06-26-2008, 06:50 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why do folks here quote within quotes? Not only is it bad posting form (as it's not originator's text), it's even overlooked -- especially in odd colors that clash with the background.This is mostly because of the tools to do this, when I was on other bbs I could use a simple code blahblah to easily seporate out the different text's. Now instead of doing alot of copy and pasting (which I guess I could do) it's just easier to do it inline. It's not really bad posting form.. it just is what it is, as you noted alot of others do this too.To answer your question about rares: in 2hrs of running around gathering tier 3 rares, my average is about 4 an hour (the other night it was 6 per hour -- finding out the best times to get them too is the best trick of them all). Fixing to go after tier 4 goods tonight, and will see how the rares stack up there next.I'm used to harvesting, as I played a Planter in the other MMOs, so can go through a level getting everything under the sun for 8hrs straight. So it won't be an issue if I will get rares, but how many (if you see me out there, say "Hi!"...lol). It still plays out -- I'll have more rares, than I can do with them.But either way, the rares will pop up, and I'll see if I have 1,000 in stock by tier 5. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>I wish you good luck on your goal, to be honest you are one of the FEW that actually spend that much time harvesting. Frankly I see alot of folks complain cause they spent 10 minuites and they expect to have bags full of raws and rares. >.< Harvesting takes time, just like leveling your adventure level, tradeskill, factions, etc. We are in an age where folks want instant or near instant sort of gratification hense why things are percieved alot easier in these generation games. On one hand I am very thankful for that considering I just hated the timesinks in some games, and well there are other things in life then just spending all day and night for weeks on end just to gain one level. >.<

Kigneer

06-26-2008, 06:52 PM

<cite>Silken@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ohh and if this is a thread about how one can "never" afford anything on the broker that is complete bull. Check the newbie forum and read the newbie threads on how to make plat (yes I said plat not gold and I mean handfulls of plat not just one or two). The short answer is just sell your lowlevel treasured or better items and it will be comming your way fast.</blockquote>Sheesh, Ohiv. Already you are beating up on the guy. Give him a chance to say something offensive first. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Naw, I got the tiger by the tail. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I knew established players would be upset by the idea here (how else will they make money?), but in other MMOs, lowered tiered items are handled as ordered, as the top level crafters are so busy with high end stuff (and the coin the lower tiered items sold for was nothing to keep up with). As a planter I would only plant top tier plants for money (and let the lower level planters rise in their ranks to sell their plants), but would take side bulk orders from lower level tailors who needed thousands of texts to level up their trade. Didn't need to, but it helps to network, and in return I get some nice outfits [or seeds in open PvP areas], too -- and I must say the player retention is higher in that game in the process, too.The broker takes the face-to-face nature of selling goods out of the equation. You don't get to meet long-term buyers and establish a relationship with. It's very inpersonal in supposely a social game. Can't run ads; can't spam the chat; so the selling part of crafting in EQII is but a UI screen -- b-o-r-i-n-g.This will fill the gap between the broker and doing everything the old fashioned way -- having to be online to sell anything.Remember delivering 10,000 texts for a customer who was so thrilled that she even gave me a bonus. I can't get that satisfaction from a broker, and sure not going to run around with a "need work" title for 1gp orders -- especially if folks are mainly (AFK) or non-existent ingame!

06-26-2008, 07:11 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Naw, I got the tiger by the tail. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />I knew established players would be upset by the idea here (how else will they make money?), but in other MMOs, lowered tiered items are handled as ordered, as the top level crafters are so busy with high end stuff (and the coin the lower tiered items sold for was nothing to keep up with). </blockquote>hate to burst your buble, but you ain't cutting into anything I do. I am against this for other reasons, my tradeskils folks do that for ME first and formost and I happen to share my skills with my guilds and friends. SOO i'm not even effecting your markets. YOu are somewhat correct that most folks that are level 80 tradeskillers will just work in the latest tier because that's where the demand is (assuming the market isn't saturated, yes there are a pletora of tradeskillers that might be considered an issue /shrug).THe thought to get more one on one is nice, but you know what folks get that now as is with the broker. I've had folks work up deals with me to make mass quanties of stuff for them at a discount. Yes it happens, folks just need to get to know you. Being connected in a good guild helps alot you will get alot of guildie type requests. The main issue thou is that there are alot of tradeskillers out there thou, so it's not like your a unique snowflake, you are just one of many many many ts'ers. Very possibly you have 100's or more competition and you don't even realise it.

Kigneer

06-26-2008, 07:19 PM

<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wish you good luck on your goal, to be honest you are one of the FEW that actually spend that much time harvesting. Frankly I see alot of folks complain cause they spent 10 minuites and they expect to have bags full of raws and rares. >.< Harvesting takes time, just like leveling your adventure level, tradeskill, factions, etc. We are in an age where folks want instant or near instant sort of gratification hense why things are percieved alot easier in these generation games. On one hand I am very thankful for that considering I just hated the timesinks in some games, and well there are other things in life then just spending all day and night for weeks on end just to gain one level. >.<</blockquote>It's nothing to harvest in this game. Heck, there isn't even a weight limit in carrying the goods (the other MMO I played had severe space and weight limits). So with 3 Redwood strong boxes, I can be harvesting easy for 8hrs straight -- even have one button to do the job! No extra tools that wear; no class limits (just level); and even harvest bonuses. The issue I'm having is FINDING NON NPCs around the world, to hit up for more than grouping. Let alone a way to apply my craft without looking as a cheap spammer (heck, I don't even have a title to advertize my trade). Like crafting to be professional, from storefront to establishing a clientel -- plus networking with other tradesmen, so to get a price break on goods (why isn't there a defacto trade guild to do this automatically? That's a guild I would join on day one!). Crafting in this game is second fiddle, despite so many MMO players wanting a good crafting system. Something that makes a player proud of doing and getting as much satisfaction as slaying a dragon. There are folks who want to play crafters in MMOs as their main, and would even enjoy the change from all the fighting and killing.

Lodrelhai

06-27-2008, 03:33 AM

<cite></cite>I have to admit, I'm really getting lost trying to figure out what, exactly, you intend to accomplish. Certainly I'm seeing contradictions between what you want and what you are willing to do to get it. I'll spell out what I'm hearing so far.First you say you want a way to commission items from the materials you've harvested without having to pay the overpriced broker rates. We point out that there are already ways to do this - do a /who all lfw in-game to see if anyone's available when you're on, or mail a person selling the things you want on the broker asking if they'd be willing to make them for you at a discount if you supply all the materials (obviously don't send the materials themselves until you have agreement). You can even, if you're impatient, sell the raw rares that you have on the broker and use the coin from that to buy the items you want. Note that two of these three options involve direct contact with another human being. But these are not acceptable.I also find it interesting that, in seeking a way to get discount commissions for yourself, you have stated clearly that you are not willing to offer discount commissions to others, per this quote:<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>sure not going to run around with a "need work"title for 1gp orders -- especially if folks are mainly (AFK) ornon-existent ingame!</blockquote>Considering that for someone to contact you for a commission while you have the /lfw tag up they have to be in-game, obviously the second half of that is not a concern. And as you repeatedly stress that you are talking about T2-3 items rather than end-game commissions, a 1g offer for an item that costs, at most, 1-2s to make, seems a rather extreme profit to me. But not good enough for you yourself to be available for commissions.Let's look at your proposal itself:<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>With a work order system, he could shop pricing; order his component; set a delivery date [regular or rush], and everyone would be happy.</blockquote>If I'm reading this correctly, you want to give crafters willing to take orders the ability to set up a price list of what they're willing to make and how much they're going to charge for it. Then anyone who's willing to pay their price can place an order for the item.There are two problems I see with this, the first being the insanely large database. My WW typically sells on the broker the items made for 1st time pristine bonus and items that sell regularly and well - ammo and totems particularly. However, for this store, I would have to set pricing for every single thing I am willing to make - in other words, every single item in my recipe book, as there is no recipe I have which I would refuse to make if someone offered me a decent price. As a woodworker I make 10 hand weapons, each having both a handcrafted and mastercrafted version, each version having two different possible imbues, plus two wooden shields (with one imbue each), 2-4 bows depending on tier (with one imbue each), 3 different types of arrows, 4 different types of throwing ammo, 2-4 different totems, and a variety of adornments PER TIER. Add to this a number of special recipes, like holiday crafted items and RoK faction-bought recipes. And woodworkers do NOT have the most, or even close to the most, recipes per tier. Once I set those prices, I need to monitor those prices, to see if someone else is undercutting me and if so, is the new pricing floor worth matching or not. Now imagine this database being maintained on every server, for every crafter, for every item they can make. That is an insane level of game resources that must be used so that the relatively small number of players unwilling to use the currently-enabled systems of getting commissioned work can shop for pricing.The second problem is that many crafters, myself included, will alter our pricing depending on what the other person is supplying. The best way to get a good rate from me is to supply the rare and imbue, but I will craft items when the person doesn't have either - for a higher fee of course. Often high enough that they might be better off buying the rare themselves and contacting me for my bottom rate. And of course, the rate I charge if I supply the rare is going to depend on the going cost of the rare, so someone who contacts me for a mahogany bo staff where I supply the mahogany might pay more this week than they will next week, depending on the going rate. I will also discount large orders, or if the person is offering cross-crafting, or offering a non-cash payment (depending what the payment is).Mechanics that you propose for this system are also in question:<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite> <blockquote><cite></cite>Someone doesn't logon again in 7 days, forfeits their gold/plat held in escrow, to the crafter. Make it work like the house upkeep fee.</blockquote> I would say a crafter who has completed an item should get their coin immediately upon completion of the order, not when the other person picks up the item or after a time limit is set. They did their part of the bargain and placed the item in the escrow, and that is where their responsibility ends. In this, the commissions should work like work-order/rush-order writs, or the current commission system - accepting the order works the same as accepting a quest, and as soon as the item is made the item gets sent to the buyer and the payment goes to the crafter.However, what does need to be dealt with is what happens to the payment/materials for an order that is placed but never completed, because there is no system currently in game for items which are sent to someone else/placed in escrow to be returned to the sender. Coin or status placed in escrow for housing is never returned - those making payments are specifically warned of this when making the payment. Likewise, items mailed are not returned if never picked up - once gone, they are gone for good.Of course, trades and commissions will return everything if both people do not agree to the terms, but both of these systems are based on both people involved being online at the same time and taking some action which will cancel the order - either pressing cancel or walking away or zoning/camping. We do not know if getting the same system to work when someone is offline and not taking action will require additional coding, or how much it will require, but I suspect it will need a fair bit to install time limits which auto-refuse the commission and return the goods. However, as that is only a guess rather than a known factor, it's an argument I'm willing to leave open, unless of course some dev steps in and definitively says one way or the other.<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The issue I'm having is FINDING NON NPCs around the world, to hit up for more than grouping. Let alone a way to apply my craft without looking as a cheap spammer (heck, I don't even have a title to advertize my trade). Like crafting to be professional, from storefront to establishing a clientel -- plus networking with other tradesmen, so to get a price break on goods (why isn't there a defacto trade guild to do this automatically? That's a guild I would join on day one!). </blockquote>Here again you stress that you seem to want player interaction and the ability to establish crafter/buyer relationships. If commissions can be placed when someone is offline, no player interaction is required - less interaction than the ideas already given, which involve you contacting the people who sell the items you want and asking about special orders or bulk discounts. Establishing long-term relationships with buyers is something that already happens, as more than one reply has stated. Many people have preferred crafters from whom they order items - usually within their own guild, but also with buyers who contact the crafter while online/via mail asking for special orders, who then come back for more orders - and more, and more, because the crafter gives them something they want, be it discount rates or fast service or cheerful interactions. This, by the way, is also why there isn't a defacto trade guild where crafters give other crafters breaks on goods - because most player-established guilds do this already on their own. Those buyers who opt not to establish a long-term relationship with a particular crafter but instead buy the cheapest rate on the broker will not establish long-term relationships with the system you propose either - they will simply shop for who's offering the best price currently and order from them.In other words, the established crafters aren't protesting the idea because it will cut into their profits for low-tier items, but because the mechanics to produce the results you request are already in-game, shown by the fact that these results already happen in-game.To summarize, I see nothing in your proposal that will improve on currently-available methods for players to obtain crafted items significantly enough to justify the resources required to enact and support it. If the open question of how to place time-limits on commissions and return unused supplies turns out to be less difficult than feared, then Eveningsong's proposal may be a more viable option:<cite>Eveningsong wrote:</cite> <blockquote><cite></cite>I think it would be nice if there was a system where someone could put out a request for an item to be made, and indicate what they were willing to pay, then a crafter could look and see if there were any orders that they'd want to fill.</blockquote> Since the database for this would only involve current orders for desired items, I believe it would create no more of a burden on the database than the broker does, and probably a far smaller one. But the time limit and return of offered supplies would have to be enacted first, to prevent, as Ohiv stated, a flood of orders that no one wants becaue the price is so low (I and some other guildmates have been asked to fill orders for less than the cost of fuel, much less the rare the person also was not supplying, so this is a real possibility).

Kigneer

06-27-2008, 01:21 PM

It's really simple to see, and doesn't take being a rocket scientist to figure it out: a bridge between a broker and having a REAL storefront (not your home being a standin for the broker, and just as impersonal).When I played other MMOs and MUDs, you do bulk orders in that fashion, too (and at least I could advertize I could do bulk orders). In this game it's just a faceless broker, and if I login and can get 3gp from sales I'll be shocked. In the other MMOs, if I wasn't making 15 mil a day I was slacking off.