Priest buffs urgent review needed

[Sorano]

<p>There is currently a major imbalance in the spread of buffs across the priest classes. All healers can now heal and dps ‘relatively adequately', but there is a major discrepancy in terms of what buffs classes bring to the raid table. The buff discrepancy is reducing druids, and wardens especially, to second class healers who are not required for end game raiding. I have provided a breakdown on how the buffs are spread across the priest classes, so the discrepancy can be clearly seen. Please note I have only included buffs that are actually useful on raids, as that is where priest balance is most skewed and needs to be addressed.</p><p><b>Defilers</b></p><p>HP buffs</p><p>Debuffs</p><p>Group stun break cure</p><p><b>Mystic</b></p><p>HP Buffs</p><p>Debuffs</p><p>Melee DPS buffs</p><p><b>Templars</b></p><p>HP buffs</p><p>Stoneskin</p><p>Shield Ally</p><p>Sanctuary </p><p>Blessings</p><p>Divine Recovery</p><p>Steadfast</p><p>Holy Shield</p><p>+Melee skills group buff</p><p><b>Inquisitors</b></p><p>HP Buffs</p><p>Melee DPS buffs</p><p>Shield Ally </p><p>Stun break cure</p><p>Divine Recovery</p><p>Steadfast</p><p>Holy Shield</p><p><b>Furies</b></p><p>Minor mage DPS buffs</p><p>Agitate</p><p>Tortoiseshell</p><p><b>Warden</b></p><p>Tortoiseshell</p><p>Instinct* but only with the VP 6 set bonus</p><p>Both clerics and shamans bring HP buffs to the raid table and they are incredibly important for survivability. Defilers and Mystics bring all important debuffs that you cannot do without on a raid. Templars are the best defensive buffers in game, and Inquisitors are a nice mixture of defensive and offensive buffs. Both druid classes have group AE avoid that stuns them. Furies have minor mage DPS buffs, which increase power and INT, but the majority of raiding mages will be at the INT cap so the usefulness of these buffs are questionable. Power pools are also not that important anymore given all the power proc gear in RoK, which makes bigger power pools irrelevant. Agitate is a single target buff that can be placed on one player. Wardens have Instinct, a single target +melee skills buff, which in its normal state is not all that useful due to diminishing returns and orange epic mobs. It does become more useful with the VP 6 set bonus that adds +accuracy and double attack, but it also can only be placed on a single player at any given time.</p><p>It is debatable on whether the single buff that both druids bring to the table is enough to warrant a spot on a raid over one of the other healer classes, who contribute more offensive and defensive buffs to the group. Furys however, have the added bonus of providing significant DPS, when not healing so that tips the scales a bit in their favour. Wardens do not have the same DPS ability.</p><p>When is SOE going to readdress this buff imbalance, so that all healers become equally valuable on a raid?</p>

[Strade]

<p>Warden not needed in raid ... are you aware how well a warden can heal?</p>

[Oh]

<cite>Strade@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Warden not needed in raid ... are you aware how well a warden can heal?</p></blockquote>I believe the OP is refering more to end game guilds who min/max alot. I can see the points (not saying i agree with them) that they are trying to make. I know lots of times folks would rather have a fury over a warden just cause they can nuke dps at the same/similar time as healing. Also furys get thrown in mage groups cause of the group buffs and single target int buffs, but as the OP points out, with the soft cap and hard cap situations that can be moot to end game raiders. My personal solution to this problem is remove the freaking stat caps!! wow all of a sudden you solved alot of problems with one simple stroke. Of course there are other caps that should be addressed also but they are more problematic. >.<

[Illine]

<p>wardens also have </p><p>a wis/power buff</p><p>a proc heal buff</p><p>a root immunity buff</p><p>sandstorm</p><p>tree</p><p>faery</p><p>wardens have no mana issues compared to some other healers. I never have to feed a warden, but mystics, templars and inquisitors can have problems on longer fights. with a coercer in the group, they can be used as mana battery with chanel.</p><p>They have faster heals compared to clerics and shamans.</p><p>You can't compare a class just by some buffs. You have to take the whole class. what they bring others don't. Ok, they are not as necessary as a templar or shaman in MT group. they are not that usefull either on a mage dps group. better have a fury or inquisitor.</p><p>But they bring a good resist buff wich stacks with all the other buffs so that the MT group can focus more on efficient equipement than just a good resist equipment. They have huge healing abilities with fast heals. they have infusion that procs on every benefic spells and they have o lot of benefic spells.</p><p>sure you don't need 6 wardens, maybe just one, just like you don't need 6 templars or 6 shamans.</p><p>maybe you'll have templar, defiler and warden on MT group</p><p>inquisitor/templar and shaman on OT group</p><p>Fury/inquisitor or 1 dps group</p><p>a 7th healer on the last dps group.</p><p>but a warden has a place in a raid setting just as any other class. for it's just that as any other class, there are only 24 places in a raid and many classes are not needed more than once. doesn't make them useless. Furys are good too, but why taking 2 furies over 1 fury and one dps? You don't need 10 healer, 7 are enough. Furies can do some great damage but other classes and best for the job or will have more utility.</p>

[Sorano]

<p>If you noticed I did not include any heal buffs from ANY of the other priest classes because healing is not my concern here. All priests can heal. Wisdom and power are irrelevant buffs, even more so than a Fury's INT and power buffs. Wisdom increases a priest's power pool and it will also increase resistances. See above for why a larger power pool means nothing. Resistances also means nothing against orange con mobs as it is all purely RNG based, plus you have the whole diminishing returns curve in play. Sandstorm buffs defence, which is also irrelvant in a raiding situation, since raid MTs are capped on defence. Name one raid mob where root immunity is useful. </p><p>Infusion is a druid buff, and you will find that most Furies will be Infusion specced.</p><p>Compared to the other priest classes, wardens bring nothing to the raid table that a Fury already does, plus Furies have the added advantage of DPS. Even worse though, you can easily do without both druid classes, as clerics and shamans bring far more useful offensive and defensive buffs, whilest also being able to heal and dps.</p>

[Illine]

<p>every priest can heal, yes, but not in the same way.</p><p>My point was, you can't compare classes just by taking some their abilities and leaving others. a class is a whole.</p><p>like comparing mages by thier buffs and not by their damage spells because ... every mage can dps.</p><p>or comparing the brigand dps to the assassin's without taking the brigand's debuff into account.</p><p> In our guild, we have usually 2 wardens in raid and no fury right now, because he doesn't raid much anymore. We do just fine and no one complains. We have only one templar too, and it's ok. the mana is important anyhow, when you're in very long fights, having a priest with no pb issues is very usefull.</p><p>If a warden dies, he can easily increase his mana, while other classes will have a hard time.  templar, mystic, inqui ... as a coercer, I never mana feed a warden, but on some fights I perma feed the mystic and the clerics</p><p>so yeah, if you want to compare warden usefullness to other priest, compare everything, not just buffs. then try to see the utility of each and how then can fill their role in a raid.</p><p>And I assure you, resist helps. On Druushk, if my fire resist is not high enough, I get OS by his AE.</p>

[AngusMcLachlan]

<p>If you are going to address the buffs issue, please address the healing issues as well between classes and their ability of all the priests to take damage, wear comparable equipment, and make sure that we all have equally useful utility and that all priests can dps just as well as each other.</p><p> Now that that is done make sure you eliminate all the confusion and just name us "Priest"... or "Healer".</p>

[Sorano]

<p>I do not intend this to turn into a discussion about healing, as every single priest can do that job and it is therefore not a criteria for which you take that priest class on a raid. Toss any priest class into a group and they will be able to keep them alive more than adequately. I am even going to ignore game mechanics which prioritize wards>reactives>hots in that order and call it balanced. </p><p>What people seem to fail to understand is that once you realize that all priests can heal, you then look at what else they bring to the table. What do they bring to the people in their groups that make having them on the raid worthwhile? Due to their buffs alone, defilers and templars have a MT spot pretty much sewn up. Inquisitor have excellent melee DPS buffs, as well as cleric defensive utility, so they slot into a melee dps group or an OT group role just fine. Mystics also have some nice melee dps buffs, solid defensive buffs, and all important debuffs, meaning they can slot into OT/MT or melee dps groups. Furies pretty much by default slot into a mage dps group. </p><p>If you run 6 healers, 2 MT, 2 OT, 1 for each of the DPS groups, what group do you put a warden in, without sacrificing the buffs another healer class brings? </p><p>Pretty much the only group you would put a warden in is the MT group, which means you will then be sacrificing either your templar or defiler, or you will be sacrificing a hate transfer. Wardens are great for breaking encounters, when you run a 3 healer MT group because you need the extra healing security over hate transfer. Once people get geared up that need for healing reduces until it is unnecessary, and hate management becomes more important. That is the problem wardens have always faced, in that gear renders the class obsolete for high end raiding. Wardens and furies to a certain extent, are sorely in need of some useful raid buff utility. I am not asking for healers to all be cookie cutter clones, but just some parity in terms of raid buffs.</p>

[liveja]

<cite>Elyssa@Najena wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>What do they bring to the people in their groups that make having them on the raid worthwhile?</p></blockquote><p>In the case of my guild leader -- a Warden -- she brings a sunny disposition & a friendly, can-do attitude. The guilds we raid with consider those attributes more important anything her class can or can't do.</p><p>The points you're making may (or may not) be relevant to min/maxing "hard core" raid guilds that strive for ultra efficiency. I've a feeling those guilds are the distinct minority. The rest of us, in the more-or-less "casual raid" community, take the people that sign up & show up on time, ready to raid, & so considerations of what one class "brings to the table" can't be really allowed to get in the way of bringing a guildie or closely-allied friend.</p>

[Sorano]

<p>I play a warden and am guild leader of my guild as well, but I also want to feel useful to a raid for other than my sunny disposition. People play their toons so they can benefit their guilds, and do not like to feel like they are being carried by the rest of their guild mates. We all pay the same monthly fee, and I have every right to ask for my concerns to be addressed, regardless of whether I belong to a minority, majority or anything in between.</p>

[dancemice]

<p><b>Elyssa: </b>Will you give up 50% of your dps for better buffs, and a further 25% of your dps for a minute better healing ability?</p><p>Druids Dps and heal. Shamans buff and protect (ala wards), Templars heal and buff. </p><p>Think of it as a big triangle. </p><p>-B-</p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>Tbiggs@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b>Elyssa: </b>Will you give up 50% of your dps for better buffs, and a further 25% of your dps for a minute better healing ability?</p><p>Druids Dps and heal. Shamans buff and protect (ala wards), Templars heal and buff. </p><p>Think of it as a big triangle. </p><p>-B-</p></blockquote><p>If this is so, it's a big triangle with one side missing in most raids.   My guild fields a decent raid force, but they still only take 1 Warden on every raid.   My sunny disposition and can do attitude parses way behind a ward or a reactive, in spite of my true desire to further our raid agenda.  I have one marginally decent buff to offer one single target, and the rest of what I offer is not needed.</p><p>I'd give up 50 percent of my dps - because as a heal-spec'd Warden, that isn't much to give up.   DPS is a FURY 'thing' ..which is exactly Elyssa's point.   My healing is incredible, but it doesnt' get counted in the mechanics of how wards, reactive and regens are counted.  Wards work first, then Reactives, then maybe ... my heals might be able to sandwich themselves in.   It's great for solo healing Runnyeye 2, but really doesn't offer much in a raid.  No one who is min/maxing is going to put me solo healing a mage group.  All I'm bringing them IS heals.  A Fury brings them great buffs, decent dps as well as all the healing they need. </p><p>No one is asking anyone to give anything up here.. I know Elyssa isn't.   We are just asking for somethign that would make you choose a Warden for a raid besides heals that don't get counted.</p>

[Sirenta]

<p>Well, actually, one has to differ two topics here...</p><p>The first: druids are neglectable on raids due to their buffs.This one is quite ridiculous, the pure healing ability and mechanic of druidscombined with fast casttimes is what they pack. I do not even know one single raidforcewhich does not enlist several druids, just because other healers can not handle massive AEand Addwaves as good as them.</p><p>( Did you ever try to heal on AE-Encounters as single-group shaman or cleric? Pain in the [Removed for Content].)</p><p> The second: wardens are inferior to furies when it comes to raidability.</p><p>Even though i would like to say that you got other fields to shine, this one definitely is an issue.</p><p>The so-called end-game evolves around raids and nothing else( This stated just think of an one char player and which possibilities he has to pass time when he is 80/80/400/140 (e.g. Templar,Jeweler,Tinkerer,AA) )</p><p>I know of enough that just login to raid and maybe to restock, since all instances are farmed to oblivion.</p><p>Therefore yup wardens need a little love just as bad as other classes need them in non-raid fields.</p>

[liveja]

<cite>Elyssa@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I play a warden and am guild leader of my guild as well, but I also want to feel useful to a raid for other than my sunny disposition.</p></blockquote><p>My guildie's sunny disposition is not the only reason she gets invited to come along; my apologies if that's what I seemed to imply, as it wasn't my intention. My only intention was to say/imply that there are some factors that are radically more important than what your character class can or can't do. Quite frankly, given the choice between a Warden with a sunny disposition & "crappy" buffs, or any other healer with "superior" buffs but played by a jerk or someone who never says a word to anyone, I'll take the Warden every single time. I play this game to socialize, not just to push hot-key buttons.</p><p>I know you want, very much, to dismiss healing, on the grounds that all priests can do it. But the fact is that my guildy is one of the better healers on the server, & tons of people know it, which is why she's constantly getting invited to groups & raids. Whether her buffs are equivalent to those of another class is irrelevant to the people inviting her, because they're inviting her for what she does best: healing.</p><p>In no way has she ever felt that she's being "carried" by anyone. My guildy is a proud Warden, loves her class, plays it exceptionally well, & has great fun doing so. I'm sure she'd love to have better buffs; I'm equally sure she'd shrug & say they're not necessary for her to feel important, useful, or wanted.</p>

[Illine]

<p>agree with you, every healer heals, but not the same way.</p><p>Ward are great but shamans heals are so slow to cast, their debuffs slow to cast too, so usually the MT shaman doesn't have much time to debuff coz he must perma ward.</p><p>Templars are also great healers but long casting heals too. plus reactiv don't always work well on a caster group. they are fine, not the problem, but when you need fast heal for the incoming AE, they sometimes have problems.</p><p>druids can stack 2 groups heals that directly fill the Hp of their group, and they can cast it quite fast compared to other healers.</p><p>When the MT has spike damage, it's always good to have HoT permagoing on him to fill his life while the other healers are recasting their ward/reactiv ...</p><p>for me, then warden can dps too, because between their fast heals, they can cast some hostile spells or wolf pack. Fury dps better but are not as good healers. They are good, but they just gave up some some heal abilities to dps.</p><p>you may not need more than 1 warden, but as I already said, you max need 7 healers .. there are 6 different healers ... so if you have already the 6 healers, you'll need one more, which will depend on the raid setting, on the class available and the players. a warden is really good healer on a mage group, he won't bring the int buff, but usually mages are almost int capped. but the warden will give them more resists for AoEs. and can react fast and has no mana issues.</p><p>never said they were ubber, they may need some love, but they are far from useless.</p><p>what's the point of having great debuffs if you don't have time casting them? as I said, the MT shaman doesn't debuff, it's the other shaman who does it.</p>

[Dragonreal]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elyssa@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I play a warden and am guild leader of my guild as well, but I also want to feel useful to a raid for other than my sunny disposition.</p></blockquote><p>My guildie's sunny disposition is not the only reason she gets invited to come along; my apologies if that's what I seemed to imply, as it wasn't my intention. My only intention was to say/imply that there are some factors that are radically more important than what your character class can or can't do. Quite frankly, given the choice between a Warden with a sunny disposition & "crappy" buffs, or any other healer with "superior" buffs but played by a jerk or someone who never says a word to anyone, I'll take the Warden every single time. I play this game to socialize, not just to push hot-key buttons.</p><p>I know you want, very much, to dismiss healing, on the grounds that all priests can do it. But the fact is that my guildy is one of the better healers on the server, & tons of people know it, which is why she's constantly getting invited to groups & raids. Whether her buffs are equivalent to those of another class is irrelevant to the people inviting her, because they're inviting her for what she does best: healing.</p><p>In no way has she ever felt that she's being "carried" by anyone. My guildy is a proud Warden, loves her class, plays it exceptionally well, & has great fun doing so. I'm sure she'd love to have better buffs; I'm equally sure she'd shrug & say they're not necessary for her to feel important, useful, or wanted.</p></blockquote>This is great and all.. but what's the warden who isn't already in an established guild, and who has "proven" themselves long long ago, supposed to do? I quit the game awhile back (like a year ago); before I quit, I was well-known to be one of the better wardens out there and I had an established place in a top raid guild. But I got a boyfriend and decided he meant more than the raiding, so I quit. Now I have time to come back but hardly anyone knows me anymore. A couple of the veteran wardens remember me.. and even a couple newer wardens remember the posts I made way back when "crusading" for the melee spec's viability, but a buncha wardens remembering me as great doesn't help me get a raid guild now, when all the guilds on  my server (even on other servers I looked into since I've transferred servers before and am not afraid to do so again) don't want or need another warden, and in some cases have been trying to get their current warden to betray to fury for exactly the reasons Elyssa brought up.So it's all well and good for you to say "but OUR warden is awesome and totally happy with her class and her position in OUR guild, therefore you don't need any changes" but YOUR warden isn't the only one out there. There's plenty of us who don't have a guild or don't have a satisfactory guild; one of my previously mentioned warden friends is having similar guild issues as I am.. she can't find a good guild on her to server to go to and the one she's in often benches her because they have multiple wardens which makes me really sad to hear because I know she's just as good of a warden as I ever was and good players like us should have good guilds to be a part of.I fully support the OP in this.. it's been an issue for a long long time now and only seems to keep getting amplified the further along the game progresses.

[liveja]

<cite>Dragonrealms wrote:</cite><blockquote>but a buncha wardens remembering me as great doesn't help me get a raid guild now, when all the guilds on  my server (even on other servers I looked into since I've transferred servers before and am not afraid to do so again) don't want or need another warden</blockquote><p>My guild, as I said, guilds players -- not classes. A good player, with a good attitude, is always welcome amongst us -- regardless of that person's class.</p><p>It's not a matter of whether or not we "need" another Warden, either. Since we've only got 9 distinct players, we "need" any skilled, friendly players we can get. We just happen to place a higher premium on the friendly part, which is why we're still so small.</p><p>It wouldn't bother me at all if my guildy's Warden got buffed. I'd be quite pleased, in fact, & so I'm not arguing against improving the class, so much as I am that the situation is not as dire as it's being made out to be. I've found, in over 10 years of MMORPGing, that the situation in game is almost NEVER as bad as it's portrayed on forums.</p>

[Illine]

<cite>Dragonrealms wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elyssa@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I play a warden and am guild leader of my guild as well, but I also want to feel useful to a raid for other than my sunny disposition.</p></blockquote><p>My guildie's sunny disposition is not the only reason she gets invited to come along; my apologies if that's what I seemed to imply, as it wasn't my intention. My only intention was to say/imply that there are some factors that are radically more important than what your character class can or can't do. Quite frankly, given the choice between a Warden with a sunny disposition & "crappy" buffs, or any other healer with "superior" buffs but played by a jerk or someone who never says a word to anyone, I'll take the Warden every single time. I play this game to socialize, not just to push hot-key buttons.</p><p>I know you want, very much, to dismiss healing, on the grounds that all priests can do it. But the fact is that my guildy is one of the better healers on the server, & tons of people know it, which is why she's constantly getting invited to groups & raids. Whether her buffs are equivalent to those of another class is irrelevant to the people inviting her, because they're inviting her for what she does best: healing.</p><p>In no way has she ever felt that she's being "carried" by anyone. My guildy is a proud Warden, loves her class, plays it exceptionally well, & has great fun doing so. I'm sure she'd love to have better buffs; I'm equally sure she'd shrug & say they're not necessary for her to feel important, useful, or wanted.</p></blockquote>This is great and all.. but what's the warden who isn't already in an established guild, and who has "proven" themselves long long ago, supposed to do? I quit the game awhile back (like a year ago); before I quit, I was well-known to be one of the better wardens out there and I had an established place in a top raid guild. But I got a boyfriend and decided he meant more than the raiding, so I quit. Now I have time to come back but hardly anyone knows me anymore. A couple of the veteran wardens remember me.. and even a couple newer wardens remember the posts I made way back when "crusading" for the melee spec's viability, but a buncha wardens remembering me as great doesn't help me get a raid guild now, when all the guilds on  my server (even on other servers I looked into since I've transferred servers before and am not afraid to do so again) don't want or need another warden, and in some cases have been trying to get their current warden to betray to fury for exactly the reasons Elyssa brought up.So it's all well and good for you to say "but OUR warden is awesome and totally happy with her class and her position in OUR guild, therefore you don't need any changes" but YOUR warden isn't the only one out there. There's plenty of us who don't have a guild or don't have a satisfactory guild; one of my previously mentioned warden friends is having similar guild issues as I am.. she can't find a good guild on her to server to go to and the one she's in often benches her because they have multiple wardens which makes me really sad to hear because I know she's just as good of a warden as I ever was and good players like us should have good guilds to be a part of.I fully support the OP in this.. it's been an issue for a long long time now and only seems to keep getting amplified the further along the game progresses.</blockquote><p>there is another problem when you come back ... it's the population ofyou class in the server you are in. Usually you find a lot more warden/fury than mystic/defilers of even templar/inquisitor.</p><p>for a while on my server you could find a lot of shamans but now they are disappearing. you never find many clerics, especially templars coz they're hard to level and you can easily get bored on easy fights. Druids are great soloers and fun to play, easy to level and you can handle them more easily than a low casting healer. I don't mean you'll master them, but it's easier to react than a defiler.</p><p>so the only way to raid is to show you're better than the other wardens and that you can keep your group alive as easily as any other healer.</p><p>a crappy player with an ubber class will never be as good as an ubber player with a crappy class. So if you're good, you'll find your place.</p><p>for exemple, in our guild we raid with a so called useless bruiser and right now, no monks, why? because she's good and knows what she's doing. </p><p>anyway, 24 slots, 24 classes, never expect to have 4 wardens in a raid, that's the problem ...</p><p>edit :</p><p> And I do have a warden so I know a little what I'm talking about .... and as livejazz said, I don't say you shouldn't have some love, I just say that you over-react. I don't mind wardens having some boost, but I desaggree when I hear wardens are useless. </p>

[branvil]

<p>The problem is Elyssa your mostly argueing with people who don't play wardens.  It's not about how well we heal it's the fact that we have nothing to offer other then healing.  I would be more then happy to give up my dps for buffs/utility.  I picked a healer to play not a DPS class. </p><p> It's been said time and time again...  once content is learned there is zero purpose for a warden in a raid.. UNLESS you don't have the ability to pick and choose classes and then you can use what you can get as a raid leader.   Not to mention some top guilds don't even feel the need to bring a warden when learning new content.  When we would learn new ecounters I would be on the parse, after we learned them I would have little to do but DPS.. well,  any DPS class when played properly can pump out much more damage then I can so what's the point me taking up the spot.  </p><p>People talk about wardens having power..  hell, there is so many power items in game these days it really means very little.  </p><p>The point of this thread is the fact that we have nothing to contribute to end game raiding other then healing which is not a make or break factor for high end guilds.  A Fury can easily do what is needed when it comes to "group health regen" and brings much better dps and more useful buffs.  Nobody is argueing that a Warden can't heal, what we are saying is. .if your in a decent raid guild that doesn't need to take anybody they can find to fill spots then your really have nothing to offer to secure your spot in the raid.  And I understand that the high end raiding people are in the minority but none the less they are a percentage and deserve to have their concerns looked at.  Whatever changes to buffs or utility that could possibly come about from a construtive thread would do nothing but benefit ALL wardens and the people in their groups.  Threads like these have their place just like threads titled.."OMGZ how do I get my runspeed uber"  So unless you've raided with a Warden and have taken the time to really analyze what you contribute to the overall big picture once the MT Shammy and Temp have learned an encounter then you really don't know what the OP is talking about. </p>

[Banditman]

I am a raid leader in VP flagged guild.  Let me ASSURE you that I want a Warden in my raid.  I have plenty of healers, sometimes 9 online to choose from, but the Warden *never* ends up sitting.

[Dragonreal]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am a raid leader in VP flagged guild.  Let me ASSURE you that I want a Warden in my raid.  I have plenty of healers, sometimes 9 online to choose from, but the Warden *never* ends up sitting.</blockquote>But how many would end up sitting after the first or possibly second..? Every raid guild I've been in has never had more than 2 active wardens at a time.. in fact I was usually the ONLY active warden because I raided with a 95%+ attendance and they wanted a fury in that second warden's spot because they knew they could count on me to be there at nearly every raid. Now I'm in the position where I'm that second or third warden who's trying to find a place to go to; I've looked at every raid guild on my server and I've looked at the first few pages of recruitment threads on eq2flames, but have seen very very few if any guilds that are looking for a warden and none were on my server, yet there's almost always been either an inquis, mystic, or fury being asked for along with bards and chanters.I know warden is wanted (not needed, necessarily, especially depending on the guild's other healers) but usually 1 is wanted.. beyond that one, though.. not so much unless you're getting out of the really "serious" raid guilds and into the more casual family-type guilds. Not that I have a problem with casual guilds, but not everyone wants to be in one.. some people just want a raid guild and want to feel like they're truly contributing to that raid guild beyond the first few weeks of learning a new encounter.

[Ep]

why would a warden be anywhere else besides mt group? i guess your running low on healers or that warden has so much senority and is as old as dirt. Cuz you just "maybe" want 1 warden in raid and that'd be MT spot if you wanted 1 at all. You can either have 1 warden or 1 extra hate/dps in mt group you decide. i Choose to have my warden in raid b/c he's always on and he does warden things, which is he does nothing. He can't outheal the defiler or templar obviously b/c of the way regens work, so he just sits there and does nothing, which is where wardens shine, b/c when he does have to do something he does it well, but the stuff a warden has to do goes unnoticed.what buffs would you add to a wardens buffs anyway? more buffs doesn't = better class to choose. again, if you wan to increase raid slot availability for wardens, it depends on encounter, skill of guild. I kill avatars w/ my guild and our 1 lone warden in mt group, i have no idea why anyone would want 2 wardens in raid. a warden doesn't deserve a spot other than mt group anyway, just like a defiler doesn't deserve any spot other than mt.

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am a raid leader in VP flagged guild.  Let me ASSURE you that I want a Warden in my raid.  I have plenty of healers, sometimes 9 online to choose from, but the Warden *never* ends up sitting.</blockquote>You want 'a' warden.  For the MT group.   Do you put a Warden in any other group other than that?  Unless you are missing Furies?

[Gorhauth]

<cite>Arielle Nightshade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am a raid leader in VP flagged guild.  Let me ASSURE you that I want a Warden in my raid.  I have plenty of healers, sometimes 9 online to choose from, but the Warden *never* ends up sitting.</blockquote>You want 'a' warden.  For the MT group.   Do you put a Warden in any other group other than that?  Unless you are missing Furies?</blockquote>Same could be said for defilers.What really needs to be done is once a zone is broken, the warden still has a spot in the raid.  That is a bigger issue than trying to get a reason for more than one in the raid.

[Sorano]

<p>Let me try to put this in terms of what people can understand. When RoK first came out, VOES:Maidens was a really tough zone as you were leveling. I remember going in there at 73 and getting absolutely spanked by the AEs. At that stage, I would never have considered doing the zone as a solo healer and we always went in there with a very solid defensive setup,  with 2 healers, a plate tank and an enchanter. As we reached the level cap and got better gear, we found that we could do it without an enchanter, and nowdays it is absolute cake to solo heal even with a brigand tanking. If I do Maidens now, I stack the group for dps not healing. That is simple progression in evidence, better gear means your priorities shift from defence to offense. It's the same mobs but they do less damage to you, so you focus on other things like killing them faster.</p><p>Raiding works exactly the same way. When you first start a zone, you start off defensively, with 3 healers in the MT group and a guardian tanking. As time goes by and your raid force gets geared up, you will find the zones so easy that they become trivial to heal, and you don't need a 3 healer MT group setup. Your focus starts shifting from defence to offense, so that means hate management instead of healing. When this starts occuring you push the warden out of the raid, since they no longer have a spot in the MT group, and don't actually fit anywhere else.Yes you can certainly continue with a 3 healer setup, but it's not neccessary. That is the problem that wardens face. Where do we go once gear puts an encounter on farm status? </p><p>Lets go back to my original Maidens example. I am sure there are groups out there that still take 2 healers with them when they go in, but I am sure we can all agree that it's not neccessary. If you can do an encounter with just one healer, the only reason you are taking the second healer is because of their sunny dispostion, or because you had room anyway.</p><p>Wardens don't want a spot just because there is room on a raid. We want to be there because we actually contribute something.</p><p>And one more thing I want to address is the dps myth. Wardens are not furies. We do not have the same dps ability as a fury. The current priest dps hierarchy looks like this: Fury>Inq>>Mystic>Templar>Warden>Defiler. The only reason defilers are at the bottom is because they have to spend all their time warding and debuffing. Wardens are certainly not giving up buffs for uber dps, so lets lay that myth to rest.</p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>Elyssa@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Wardens don't want a spot just because there is room on a raid. We want to be there because we actually contribute something.</p><p>And one more thing I want to address is the dps myth. Wardens are not furies. We do not have the same dps ability as a fury. The current priest dps hierarchy looks like this: Fury>Inq>>Mystic>Templar>Warden>Defiler. The only reason defilers are at the bottom is because they have to spend all their time warding and debuffing. Wardens are certainly not giving up buffs for uber dps, so lets lay that myth to rest.</p></blockquote><p>QFE.   </p><p>Fury can buff AND dps AND heal.  We'd just like to have some similar raid ability that will keep us in the mix and, as Elyssa says allow us to actually contribute.   Also reiterating:  no one wants anyone to lose anything.  We'd just like to have a bit of parity/usefulness so we dont' get left out.</p>

[Meirril]

<p>When it comes to raids, you want wardens when a zone is new and your learning it. The immense amount of healing a warden brings helps to mitigate suprises and mistakes.</p><p>However, once you have the strats down for a zone you start removing healers in favor of more DPS. Wardens are usually removed first because they don't contribute any significant buffs. It is the easy decision. Furies go next because there are 4 other classes that have more significant buffs and can generally fill the healing role that a fury/warden generally handles. Sure, druids heal groups faster and better than the other 4 healers but druids don't have the raid utility of the other 4 priests.</p><p>Personally I'd like to see a return of the Protection of the <blank> line of buffs that druids had in EQ1. A defense/HP/power regeneration buff. While it wouldn't be nearly as strong as a templar buffing it would make druids slightly more desirable. </p><p>Also with the proliferation of "fae fall/levitation" racial abilities to avoid falling damage I wouldn't see why this couldn't be given to druids as well. A group levitaiton spell for both druids would be rather natural.</p><p>Going along these lines, a group ability to partially avoid knock back might give druids a push towards being more raid-viable in the MT group. Something as simple as a permanent 30% chance to avoid KB would be highly desirable.</p><p>Lastly, expand the tranquility line. Tranquility is now a combined single target heal/cure with a very poor refresh timer. If this was expanded to a group ability that would become ideal even with a 2 min refresh. If the refresh time was dropped to 10 seconds it would become a viable single target heal with a cure component.</p><p>For furies, I'd suggest adding a proc ability that gives power/healing to the group on a successfull hostile spell. If furries are suppose to be a DPS priest, their utility power should reward them for contributing DPS by helping their group.</p>

[Illine]

<p>could be added to nature's walk ... immune to root and a chance to avoid KB.</p><p>druids also have an anti-AE aa that can be nice sometimes, especially in the MT group since it has to be aimed toward the group? Oo</p><p>make the AE root effect be parted form the agi debuff so that you could cast this spell to debuff the mob's agi even if it's epic or the root breaks.</p><p>buff the mystic's wisdom so that he wards better with his mythical <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p><p>become a melee warden to do a little more dps.</p>

[Pelda]

If your raid leader doesn't want a warden in the raid then you need a new raid leader.  As guild leader and raid leader of a guild that recently cleared VP I love having a warden in the raid and there has been plenty of times we have run with 2.  We cleared VP with 1 of each type of healer most of the time and I'll stick a warden in the melee group anytime.  I'll use a Warden in the MT group when our Coercer doesn't show or we need the extra healing in that group.  Their ability to keep people alive from spike damage due to how good they heal is unrivaled.  Most of your other healers cast too slow in comparison.

[Oakum]

<cite>Arielle Nightshade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elyssa@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Wardens don't want a spot just because there is room on a raid. We want to be there because we actually contribute something.</p><p>And one more thing I want to address is the dps myth. Wardens are not furies. We do not have the same dps ability as a fury. The current priest dps hierarchy looks like this: Fury>Inq>>Mystic>Templar>Warden>Defiler. The only reason defilers are at the bottom is because they have to spend all their time warding and debuffing. Wardens are certainly not giving up buffs for uber dps, so lets lay that myth to rest.</p></blockquote><p>QFE.   </p><p>Fury can buff AND dps AND heal.  We'd just like to have some similar raid ability that will keep us in the mix and, as Elyssa says allow us to actually contribute.   Also reiterating:  no one wants anyone to lose anything.  We'd just like to have a bit of parity/usefulness so we dont' get left out.</p></blockquote><p>Wardens have had this issue since LVL 60 really althouogh I didnt raid much put pickups then. Of course then warden and fury dps was almost equal and all priest were balanced to heal equally heal for heal when all were added up in the same situation. (not taking into account mana regen/efficiency effects). </p><p>Now though even melee specced where a warden can do more damage then nuking, the fury way outdps's wardens and still have useful group buffs. </p><p>I am like the other wardens in that I want to feel like I bring something besides healing to a group/raid like furys, cleric and shaman do. Sandstorm has no big effect on any fight I have tryed it on and if wasnt for the extra power I/other priest get, i wouldnt bother casting the group wis buff. </p><p>So when burning through trash mobs and not much healing is required, clerics are providing stoneskin with their wards, putting up dps procs ect. Shaman are debuffing the mob. Furies are doing dps. Wardens are supposed to what? Play soletaire in another window? Its not dp since we were nerfed by omission for the last 3 expansions. We never had but one small debuff which I find is being resisted about 50 percent of the time now with the wis increases on mobs as part of our dot which cant be cast on any named that proc's a stoneshield, DS, ect from hits.</p><p>I know, we spam heal undamaged group or raid memeber so that we are always are close to full power while we watch the other healers power go down from doing the non heal portion of their class knowing they are are providing good group buffs/decent dps/excellant mob debuffs. </p><p>Well, personally I attempt to dps but when I see a fury's parse who is actually attempting to dps and see how much better it is then mine in the same situation, I get discouraged some.   Of course I get discouraged even more when I see all the fabled gear drop with wis/sta/int or even worse with wis/sta/str when it has plus heal or heal crit and spell attack procs. </p><p>So the first question is valid from the OP. What unique group buffs/debuffs/utility/secondary ability does a warden have that make us wanted for something besides heals in a well geared group or raid where less healing is requred? </p><p> Maybe its some sort of hate transfer to allow other to do more dps sooner, nope, that's not it. Hmm, its those great debuffs we have, sorry, forgot, we have no great debuffs. </p><p>I GOT IT!!!! </p><p>I know what it is, its evac right, we can evac our group in the middle of a named raid fight? Okay, answered my own question.  Have to stop complaining now.  /sarcasm off</p>

[Mr. Dawki]

<p>If they changed the druid mit buff to a large avoidance buff I gurantee they would be wanted anywhere. Mit means nothing in RoK its all about avoidance.</p><p>As far as druid heals in general I think the druid class has the hardest time being a solo healer than any other</p>

[Frametree]

<p><cite>Yeah, this is a good way to describe the problem.  I'm a MT warden in an endgame raiding guild.  As VP gets easier and easier, I bring less and less to the table, because all I bring, really, is healing, and less and less of that is needed.  I haven't yet been given the boot, but I fully recognize that at some point, that's the rational thing for the guild to do.  Hey Warden, can you sit this one?  Sure....  /sigh.</cite></p><p><cite> WB DR, I certainly remember you. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></cite><cite> </cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite>Elyssa@Najena wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Let me try to put this in terms of what people can understand. When RoK first came out, VOES:Maidens was a really tough zone as you were leveling. I remember going in there at 73 and getting absolutely spanked by the AEs. At that stage, I would never have considered doing the zone as a solo healer and we always went in there with a very solid defensive setup,  with 2 healers, a plate tank and an enchanter. As we reached the level cap and got better gear, we found that we could do it without an enchanter, and nowdays it is absolute cake to solo heal even with a brigand tanking. If I do Maidens now, I stack the group for dps not healing. That is simple progression in evidence, better gear means your priorities shift from defence to offense. It's the same mobs but they do less damage to you, so you focus on other things like killing them faster.</p><p>Raiding works exactly the same way. When you first start a zone, you start off defensively, with 3 healers in the MT group and a guardian tanking. As time goes by and your raid force gets geared up, you will find the zones so easy that they become trivial to heal, and you don't need a 3 healer MT group setup. Your focus starts shifting from defence to offense, so that means hate management instead of healing. When this starts occuring you push the warden out of the raid, since they no longer have a spot in the MT group, and don't actually fit anywhere else.Yes you can certainly continue with a 3 healer setup, but it's not neccessary. That is the problem that wardens face. Where do we go once gear puts an encounter on farm status? </p><p>Lets go back to my original Maidens example. I am sure there are groups out there that still take 2 healers with them when they go in, but I am sure we can all agree that it's not neccessary. If you can do an encounter with just one healer, the only reason you are taking the second healer is because of their sunny dispostion, or because you had room anyway.</p><p>Wardens don't want a spot just because there is room on a raid. We want to be there because we actually contribute something.</p><p>And one more thing I want to address is the dps myth. Wardens are not furies. We do not have the same dps ability as a fury. The current priest dps hierarchy looks like this: Fury>Inq>>Mystic>Templar>Warden>Defiler. The only reason defilers are at the bottom is because they have to spend all their time warding and debuffing. Wardens are certainly not giving up buffs for uber dps, so lets lay that myth to rest.</p></blockquote>

[Sunlei]

  well toss all the healers in a box and your raid only gets to pick ONE. who you gonna pick? yup, most everyone picks the same one.

[Melli]

My warden is retired once I got her maxxed out in RoK.  The simple reason was she was no longer needed.  Yes, I know I could have had a spot on my guild's raid force, they're good peeps.  BUT why bring a weak link to the table?Most serious raid forces only have two healers in the MT group once you get past the initial learning/gearing up period.  We run with a temp and defiler just fine, with other healers spotting as necessary.  Putting a warden in there decreases the hate transfers to the tank which means the dps has to be more careful.  Definitely more hate transfer other what little of the warden's heals will actually count for.OT group again doesn't need three healers.  A cleric and shaman are best choices here for the buffs/debuffs as well as the healing and other utility (santuary anyone?) over either flavor of druid.Scout group is better served with an inquisitor.  They bring more to the table for a scout group and should be able to keep them alive through AEs.Mage group is better served with a fury, not just because they actually have a buff mages may want but also because they dps well and will benefit themselves from the illy and troub loving much more than a warden will.  I've seen our fury not only keep her group constantly in the green, but parse 3.5K+ without breaking a sweat (pre VP set gear and mythicals - got those last weekend finally!)  Plus furies have the fast casting heals that the mage group needs to get back into the green after AEsSo where does that leave wardens when it comes to serious raiding?  Yes, a warden can still get a spot on a raid if they're in a good guild that isn't concerned about min/maxing and cares about its people.  Can probably grab an open healer spot if there's no one else to grab it.  But try finding a new spot in a serious raiding guild - I haven't seen a single raiding guild looking for a warden, unless it's a start up doing early content with a raid force that needs to eek out every bit of healing to survive.  There aren't very many of those any more.There is NO reason to bring a warden to a raid except that you care about the player or you are overwhelmed and need that extra healing (which you could also get from any one of the other classes technically).I LOVED my warden.  I love the style of play, the melee spec was right up my alley since I really hate rooting and nuking.  I've always played a healer type in every game I've played.  I won't play my warden unless I have to these days because it's too frustrating knowing that I'm just along for the ride and have no real role in the raid and my raid force would be better served with someone else.Thank goodness I have a coercer to satisfy my need to throw my poor, battered body at dragons 12 hours each week!

[Melli]

<cite>Mr. Dawkins wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If they changed the druid mit buff to a large avoidance buff I gurantee they would be wanted anywhere. Mit means nothing in RoK its all about avoidance.</p><p>As far as druid heals in general I think the druid class has the hardest time being a solo healer than any other</p></blockquote>I'd had to agree on solo healing groups to a certain extent.  I solo healed instances (as well as KC and Chelsith) on my warden long before single healer groups became the norm, but I overheal in those situations rather than try to react to damage.That said, druids don't have the tools to handle large amounts of burst damage on a tank that clerics and shaman have, plus we lack the buffs and debuffs to make our job easier.  For a druid to solo heal some of the harder content requires constant vigilance.  It's almost like being on my enchanter, I'm mashing my buttons so fast.  There have been fights like in RE2 where I kept the tank up but he was sitting in the orange and red for the last 40% of the fight and it was so close a couple of times that I didn't think I could do it.  That's fun once, a nice rush for he and I, but gets a bit old time after time.Do have to say though that no other healer handles the uh-oh moments as well as my druid does.  When a group needs some seriously fast healing, nothing beats a druid. 

[Sorano]

<p>Edited to add Steadfast and Holy Shield to the cleric buffs. If you are fighting Byzola and Trak you are pretty much required to have steadfast specced clerics in raid.</p><p>Holy Shield is also really useful for those encounters that require the MT group to eat AEs.</p>

[inshiningarmor]

<cite>Tbiggs@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b>Elyssa: </b>Will you give up 50% of your dps for better buffs, and a further 25% of your dps for a minute better healing ability?</p><p>Druids Dps and heal. Shamans buff and protect (ala wards), Templars heal and buff. </p><p>Think of it as a big triangle. </p><p>-B-</p></blockquote><p> With the exception of Furies, Templars are the best DPS of the healers, so I do not know why you are putting that out there.   Best a Warden can do is go Melee line and put up melee numbers higher then Defiers.   forget about putting more DPS then Furies, Inquisitors, Templars, Mystics.   It will not happen.    BAD ARGUEMENT.</p><p>Other classes cast too slow and you are all right about that, but the Devs took care of that as well.   Overloaded heal takes care of any boo boos the casters may be getting.    Pure healing ability druids are right up there with any class.   If you take into account the rest ( debuffs, buffs, avoidance, procs, misc other benefits ) druids are so underpowered it is not funny.</p><p> Do not get me wrong, Druids HEAL as good if not better then the other archtypes, but they cannot REMOTELY compare to what the others bring to the table.</p>

[Oakum]

<cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tbiggs@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b>Elyssa: Will you give up 50% of your dps for better buffs, and a further 25% of your dps for a minute better healing ability?</b></p><p>Druids Dps and heal. Shamans buff and protect (ala wards), Templars heal and buff. </p><p>Think of it as a big triangle. </p><p>-B-</p></blockquote><p> With the exception of Furies, Templars are the best DPS of the healers, so I do not know why you are putting that out there.   Best a Warden can do is go Melee line and put up melee numbers higher then Defiers.   forget about putting more DPS then Furies, Inquisitors, Templars, Mystics.   It will not happen.    BAD ARGUEMENT.</p><p>Other classes cast too slow and you are all right about that, but the Devs took care of that as well.   Overloaded heal takes care of any boo boos the casters may be getting.    Pure healing ability druids are right up there with any class.   If you take into account the rest ( debuffs, buffs, avoidance, procs, misc other benefits ) druids are so underpowered it is not funny.</p><p> Do not get me wrong, Druids HEAL as good if not better then the other archtypes, but they cannot REMOTELY compare to what the others bring to the table.</p></blockquote><p>The DPS side of wardens is something I take more seriously then other wardens. DRUIDS traded leather armor in order to to the most DPS. </p><p>Then, when all cleric and shaman were bumped up to help them solo better, which in itself doesnt bother me, they could dps as well or better then druids. The dev's fixed this by increasing the fury's ability to do dps and gave wardens the melee line presumably for the same reason. </p><p>The melee line hasnt worked though, even if wearing brawler gear and is not well supported by legenary/fabled at all. Mastercrafted is the only gear that seemed to have melee wardens in mind when it was made. </p><p>When its all said and done, plate and chain wearing priest can now outdps a leather wearing class that does not have any real raid utility like the other 5 healing classes have including the top dps priest, the leather wearing fury. </p><p>That bothers me. The problem with lack of gear for melee priest degradation and the d lowering by default warden DPS since KoS was released, has been posted over and since then and no dev has addressed it. </p><p>The lack of raid utility compared to the other 5 healer subclasses has been posted about since the end of DoF and the big combat revamp and it has never been addressed either unless they consider making SoW a group wide buff when other classes also get it and SoW is not much use in a raid zone unless someone has to run back in VP due to a wipe possibly. Then a mount is faster anyway, lol.  </p><p>As to the first part, it sounds like Tbiggs wants wardens nerfed in the dps department even more then they have by default to do less then half the damage of a templer in exchange for a little more healing which isnt an issue among any healers except possibly inquisitors wearing non healing gear.  LoL. </p>

[Oakum]

<cite>Earar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>you may not need more than 1 warden, but as I already said, you max need 7 healers .. there are 6 different healers ... so if you have already the 6 healers, you'll need one more, which will depend on the raid setting, on the class available and the players. a warden is really good healer on a mage group, he won't bring the int buff, but usually mages are almost int capped. but the warden will give them more resists for AoEs. and can react fast and has no mana issues.</p></blockquote><p>You left out that at the end game, the warden even if along becomes a cure spammer from lack of anything else useful to provide. </p><p>At end game with a min/max raid force which most avatar killing guilds uses th 6 healers for most raid content. MTgroup-templer,defilier.  OTgroup- inquis or temp, mystic. 2 dps groups- fury or mystic or inquis.  Healers sitting warden, second and or third templer, fury, inquisitor, mystic. </p>

[Syrano]

There are 24 slots in a raid, there are 24 classes in the game.  Why does everyone think this is not by design?  The ultimate goal, regardless of where you think things are in the game, is that the ideal raid is 1 of each class.That's right, one of each class. All raids are balanced with this in mind and frankly, any guild worth a grain of salt (I've been in a few) recognizes this and gears their raids accordingly. Doubling up a class ultimately means you're losing some efficiency because of stacking issues.  Sure you can split them into seperate groups but that only goes so far.Granted, I know plenty of guilds don't raid this way, they raid with what works for them but when it comes to discussing class raid balance it's best to keep the ultimate overall design goal in mind.  1 of each class on a raid. So first things first, I can't stand the "no one wants a second warden" argument.  So what? In an ideal world no one wants a second of ANY class on a raid.  I don't want two guardians, that second one is useless, there are way better off-tank choices, and each tank type class offers somethign the raid needs that a second guardian does not.  Main tanks for raid guilds (guardians) deal with this all the time, if you're not #1, you're benched.  Sucks to be you, but that's the case.  That doesn't mean guardians are useless.  far from it, and any guild worth it's salt keeps at least two guardians well geared up, if not three.So the point's and arguments need to stay focused on why A (single) warden is on the raid.  As has been said, we are by far the most mana-efficient healers in the game.  Long-duration fights are our bread and butter.  I'd like more buffs just as much as anyone else and I would even argue that in the grand scheme of things, Wardens do not bring enough raid wide utility.  If some of our resistance/mitigation buffs were raid wide it would be a start.  Now now, I know the diminishing returns argument but frankly content is balanced against diminishing returns.  You may only mitigate %0.5 more damage but the raid encounter can, and IS balanced to that granularity.  Regardless an HP/Mana regen buff would be nice, raid wide would be awesome.  I understand the argument but I can't stand the inclusion of all the "noise".  Remember, in an ideal world no one wants a second of any class on a raid.  A handful of raids might benefit fromt he doubling up of certain classes but often that's due to a lack of gear on the guilds part (needing to double up for resistances for example) not any particular flaw in the raiding game.  Stick to the basics, what's the primary feature warden's bring to a Raid:  Most mana efficient healing.  What's its drawback: it's HOT based, not instant, as such we struggle with large amounts of high-speed incoming damage.  What auxilliary features to wardens bring raid wide:  Not much.  What auxilliar features do wardens bring to a group in a raid:  Elemental resistances, physical mitigation buff, power buff, wis/agi buff, spores, thorns (last two not so useful on raids).  Compare those with others and figure out where we see.  IMO we suffer a little too much for lakc of useful buffs due to our best healing status, but that it is an argument that is overly exagerated in threads against wardens (usually by wardens).At the core of it, it's like being picked for dodgeball in elementary gym class.  No one wants to be the last one picked in any category.  Some people feel we are the last one picked for healers, but someone has to be.  If not us, then who, and why?  Keeping my raid design argument in mind (one of each class), no one, and everyone, are the last one picked for their class in any raid guild.At a macro level, EQII guilds need only be 24 people strong, assuming those 24 people are one of each class and log in every time the guild wants to raid.  Guilds in EQII just aren't very big, the uber guilds are the crem de la crem and everyone wants to be in one, but there are only a few on each server and way more players than they need to field.  Thus, the issue.  No one cares if they can get into a guild that raids, they only care that they can get into a guild that is raiding top tier content pulling down top tier loot so they can get top tier gear for their personal character.  When they can't achieve this because the top tier guilds are full for their class type, they don't want the simple logical answer (we have two of you in guild already and thanks to our guild rules both are highly active so we don't need more) they immediately assume it's a class balance issue.

[Sorano]

<cite>Syrano wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are 24 slots in a raid, there are 24 classes in the game.  Why does everyone think this is not by design?  The ultimate goal, regardless of where you think things are in the game, is that the ideal raid is 1 of each class.That's right, one of each class. All raids are balanced with this in mind and frankly, any guild worth a grain of salt (I've been in a few) recognizes this and gears their raids accordingly. Doubling up a class ultimately means you're losing some efficiency because of stacking issues.  Sure you can split them into seperate groups but that only goes so far.</blockquote>Alright here is an excercise for you to step up and prove this point. Please show us how you would setup a raidforce compromising of one of each of the 24 classes, with Nexona as the target raid mob. No mythicals on any of the classes, just straight up buffs that they bring to the table. I look forward to seeing your response.

[tikasa]

<p> The people saying 1 of each can be in a raid are still raiding Courts.   </p><p>Change Wardens Mit buff to 10% avoidance.   That would be the equivilent to the Templars sheild ally line.</p><p>Change Spirit of the bat to 200 Agi 50 in combat Power Regen.</p><p>Those 2 alone would give 90% of the raid forces a good reason to include Wardens over Temps or Defilers.</p><p>Furies need to get something as well... Make Vim add Int power and 5% to base spell damage.   This would put them back into the caster group firmly.</p>

[branvil]

24 classes..  24 raid spots...  hmm in a perfect world yes..  In the actual world of EQ2, not even close.   SK's, Bruisers, and Wardens are all three classes that can be substituted by classes that do their job better.

[inhumanus1986]

Here is how I envision a fix for this situation.The Fury melee proc buff should now be a Warden buff, made group wide, and given a proc damage (30 to 40%) in the 100 to 200 range.  This would put it on par with a mini CoB like the Dirge.  To keep it from becoming overpowered, the proc rate may have to be lowered or individually triggered.Replace the Fury one with a proc that decreases resistability of spells group wide, proc damage % about the same, turn up the damage a bit to compensate for spell cast times.  This will be like a mini Trouby buff.The Fury temporary mitigation buff should be a Warden ability.  Give the Furies a magic ward like Templars, eating AOE magic damage.This may not be enough, but it re-defines the buffs to allow Wardens to be solidly melee and Furies solidly caster.  Honestly, Furies at the moment get both while Wardens get very little.Even though I dont play much, I have decided to use the remaining character slots to roll all 6 healers, I have just 3 at this time.Good luck with your concerns.Inhumanus Nex80 InquisitorNektulous server

[Syrano]

<cite>Elyssa@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Alright here is an excercise for you to step up and prove this point. Please show us how you would setup a raidforce compromising of one of each of the 24 classes, with Nexona as the target raid mob. No mythicals on any of the classes, just straight up buffs that they bring to the table. I look forward to seeing your response.</blockquote>You missed my point entirely, which is not unexpected given how I delivered it. I am not arguing that you can currently raid all content with 1 of each class (and though the next poster so fastidiously accusses that anyone raiding such a way raids courts, hardly.  Class makeup is irrelevant once you're nearly 10 levels beyond any raid content, you could raid most of KoS with half a raid right now).    I'm arguing that this, ultimately is the "balance" state of EQ2.  One of each.This balance, as it does with all MMO's, fluctuates back and forth.  In my time with EQII I've watched Mystics/Defilers go from useless to uber, swashies and brigs swap a few times in "who is best", Rangers be uber to useless, monks/bruisers uber to not so much, paladins from useless to frickin' awesome, etc.  It goes all over the place.  Always will, this is how MMO's work, pendulum's of balance.  It is never the end of the world or worth quiting over (a game is fun, or it is not).  But I digress.One of each, ultimate balance design.  Given the "one of each" argument, arguing over "no one wants a second..." is a irrelevant argument, there is only ever supposed to be one, so make sure there's a need for the one.  Now, some are arguing here there is no need for the most mana efficient healer in the game on a raid.  That's fine.  I even acknowledged that warden's pay too heavily for that feature in the buff department.  (and before anyone jumps down my gourd, I'm aware that plate healer reactives are more mana effienct, but they alone do not keep a tank alive no more so than spores does and hey, look, they stack, go figure).   Right now, guilds are getting through content.  Some love their wardens, some don't use them. Shocker.  This provides plenty of ammunition for either side of the argument to ignore the other completely.  My only issue was with people saying no one wants a second warden or, worse, I can't get in an uber guild because they are recruiting wardens.That last one is extremely easy to answer.  Wardens, and furies, are easy to level comparatively.  They solo exceptionally well, they are healers so can get groups, it's a great choice for a solo'er or a new player to the game.  Heck I took my swashy and shelved him when I couldn't raid as much (no point to solo'ing a maxed out swash) and started a warden so I could get that "mmo" vibe of progression without raiding as much.  So it does not suprise me there are "more wardens" than raid slots available.  As a general rule though, guilds don't open recruiting for "more" of a type of class, they open recruiting to to fill slots where they don't have presence.  Either due to lack of attendance or lack of the class at all.  A quick view of high end guilds recruiting that aren't recruiting wardens shows at least two active wardens on their rosters (sometimes 4 or 5!).  Any uber guild with 5 of one class on the roster is, IMO, too thick.  2-3 tops.  All active, minimum %75 raid attendance, if you can't achieve that, get out.  Why? Because guilds over 40 people suffer from loot dillution, it takes too long to outfit the guild to move on.  So at best you're only competing for 2-3 slots for your class in any guild.  Usually those slots are "primary, benched and on reserve/alt status).    Doubling up on some classes in a raid makes sense for certain raids where you want to spread certain group buffs around, but stacking issues make it much less important beyond two.  As a side note, mmost uber guilds just aren't recruiting more than a couple of classes in EQII right now, period.  They are full.  They are progressing, and they are not losing much to attrition.  I see more guilds making their way through high end content then I did a year ago, evidence that the playerbase is pushed to end game mainly.  Many have gotten through the first tier or 2 of Kunark by now.  The seperation is not nearly as strong as it was back in DoF days or KoS days.  Faydwer squished everybody to end game.  So the argument that "Wardens are useless because no one is recruiting" just is, well, frankly, not a good balance argument.Stick to the classes basics.  We've given up quite a bit of utility to be good solo'ers and incredibly mana efficient at healing.  This is probably too much away from utility, modify a few of our buffs to have stackable HP or some kind of mana regen, or at the least be raid wide.  You can argue that mit buffs are useless due to diminishing returns but I already shot that down.  Even if content only gets %0.5 harder, you need that %0.5 edge to win.  All diminishing returns does is not seperate the rich from the poor as mcuh.  It allows a new raiding guild that's all legendary geared starting raid now, to start with Kunark rather than have to progress through KoS/Faydwer first.Wow, way too many topics and tangents in post.  Point is, read what I said again.  Target balance, 1 of each for a raid.  So all balance arguments sould be focused on that.  Make sure wardens have a reason to be a raid, make sure that reason is just as valuable as any other classes reason.  Then it just boils down to content, some types of content might need a different mix of resists or buffs than others.

[kxizm]

<span style="font-size: x-small;"><cite>Mr. Dawkins wrote:</cite></span> <blockquote><cite></cite>As far as druid heals in general I think the druid class has the <b>EASIEST </b>time being a solo healer than any other</blockquote> Fixed.<span style="font-size: x-small;"><cite>Elyssa@Najena wrote:</cite></span><blockquote><cite></cite>Alright here is an excercise for you to step up and prove this point. Please show us how you would setup a raidforce compromising of one of each of the 24 classes, with Nexona as the target raid mob. No mythicals on any of the classes, just straight up buffs that they bring to the table. I look forward to seeing your response.</blockquote>OOoo sounds fun. note: i dont agree that there should be one of each class on a raid, im simply doing this for fun <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Group 1:   Guardian   Defiler   Templar   Swashy   Bruiser   CoercerGroup 2:   Zerker   Inquisitor   Assassin   Ranger   Brigand   Dirge   Group 3:  Illy  Troub  Fury  Wizard  Warlock  Shadow KnightGroup 4:   Pally   Monk   Conj   Nec   Mystic   Wardenewwww.... i guess thats not too bad. maybe switch the assasin and one of the summoners in OT grp if you need the hate xfer. i know for a fact this isnt the best setup, so discuss and improve!!!   On topic - wardens heal. GOOD. i dont parse high on trash, or most straight burn names, but the long fights, i usually am neck and neck with the defiler, if not past. Im not saying wardens cant heal on par with other healers. I do think that they need something to make them more wanted by raids. The OP listed the /raid-worthy/ buffs each other healing class brought to a raid. wardens.... dint have very many, and one was only useful if you have the VP set. There have been a number of good suggestions to improve the current buffs to make a warden more raid-desirable   - change the mit buff to avoidance   - add a damage proc to a buff   - improve Spirit of the Batpersonally, i think adding an ele damage proc to Ward of the Untamed would be a good start - i would actually cast that every time it was up if it had a proc like that. These and many more have been suggested, and I have yet to see any Dev feedback at all concerning giving wardens raid utility. I would like to see a developer discuss what, if anything is being done to ensure that classes with little raid-desirability (wardens, bruisers, SKs) will be given some much needed love.