Prove me wrong.

[G'ville]

     Since there seems to be some question to whether Wiz raid DPS is lacking.  I ask SOE to get the average mean of level 80 raiding wizards <b><u>without Time Compression?</u></b>  If the devs can prove that wizzys' DPS is well above the other caster classes I will be happy to let the issue drop.

[thajo]

Won't prove anything.  If you are familiar with experiments you should realize there is way too many factors that was cause variance.  Different raidwide dps, different debuff classes present, there are FAR more enhancements that boost our dps besides TC and also whether you believe it or not, unless you have the same person, geared the same, playing different scenarios you are going to be varied results based on player skill.  You also have player skill of other people who are being contended with.  This idea sounds like a mess and it wont prove anything.  Maybe next time we do some DPS zones ill ask to not have TC lol, /shrug.  I mean TC is a singular buff...based on my gear I could do well without TC I think.  But that also doesn't mean you should use my numbers verse a wizard with different gear as well.  Just soo much variables present.Example, I think you are trying to suggest - how well do wizards do without time compression.  Most agree and feel we are bent on having TC to perform.  Well you can't compare lack of TC to a group with a fury verses a mystic.  The mystic providing cast speed temp buff would off-set some dps lost from TC that the fury isn't providing.  If a wizard has one of the casting speed increase procs, that will off-set *true* results without time compression.  A raid wizzy could have time compression but not a monk.  So sure they get TC but they are lacking 14.4% cast speed from another source.  I think they should look at specific raids and examples to see direct and first-hand performance opposed to averaging a bunch of numbers with such a extreme lack of correlation due to all the dynamics other classes can bring and how other guilds setup raids.Theres another reason scouts are blowing mages away atm anyhow, which has nothing to do with buff setup.

[Kule]

<cite>G'ville wrote:</cite><blockquote>     Since there seems to be some question to whether Wiz raid DPS is lacking.  I ask SOE to get the average mean of level 80 raiding wizards <b><u>without Time Compression?</u></b>  If the devs can prove that wizzys' DPS is well above the other caster classes I will be happy to let the issue drop.</blockquote>SOE doesn't even acknowledge us, let alone take requests such as this... Furthermore, I think you will find that your fellow wizards are going to get tired of your completely irrational whine. I'm not sure if you truely mean it when you say "If the devs can prove that wizzys' DPS is well above the other caster classes I will be happy..", but.. it just makes you sound like an [Removed for Content], even to those who might agree with you on wizard issues. It gets old dude, make a case instead of trying to present clever rhetoric. You completely failed at debating any issue, and your issue itself is opaque. Wizards needing TC to DPS well, or not being the highest parsing mages?

[G'ville]

<cite>Cadd@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>G'ville wrote:</cite><blockquote>     Since there seems to be some question to whether Wiz raid DPS is lacking.  I ask SOE to get the average mean of level 80 raiding wizards <b><u>without Time Compression?</u></b>  If the devs can prove that wizzys' DPS is well above the other caster classes I will be happy to let the issue drop.</blockquote>SOE doesn't even acknowledge us, let alone take requests such as this... Furthermore, I think you will find that your fellow wizards are going to get tired of your completely irrational whine. I'm not sure if you truely mean it when you say "If the devs can prove that wizzys' DPS is well above the other caster classes I will be happy..", but.. it just makes you sound like an [I cannot control my vocabulary], even to those who might agree with you on wizard issues. It gets old dude, make a case instead of trying to present clever rhetoric. You completely failed at debating any issue, and your issue itself is opaque. Wizards needing TC to DPS well, or not being the highest parsing mages?</blockquote><p>Which point have I failed at debating, most assertions I have made, others have put forth supporting facts to back up my points.</p><p>I do have a problem with wizzys failing to be consistently better than other casters, I have seen Coercers and Illusionist beat wizzys on raids.</p><p>I also find it unreasonable that wizzy DPS (to be near the top of the parse) necesitates TC.  If they are truly DPS, their place on the parse should not be completely dependent on a chanter chosing to grace them with that almighty buff.</p>

[Kule]

<cite>G'ville wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cadd@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>G'ville wrote:</cite><blockquote>     Since there seems to be some question to whether Wiz raid DPS is lacking.  I ask SOE to get the average mean of level 80 raiding wizards <b><u>without Time Compression?</u></b>  If the devs can prove that wizzys' DPS is well above the other caster classes I will be happy to let the issue drop.</blockquote>SOE doesn't even acknowledge us, let alone take requests such as this... Furthermore, I think you will find that your fellow wizards are going to get tired of your completely irrational whine. I'm not sure if you truely mean it when you say "If the devs can prove that wizzys' DPS is well above the other caster classes I will be happy..", but.. it just makes you sound like an [I cannot control my vocabulary], even to those who might agree with you on wizard issues. It gets old dude, make a case instead of trying to present clever rhetoric. You completely failed at debating any issue, and your issue itself is opaque. Wizards needing TC to DPS well, or not being the highest parsing mages?</blockquote><p>Which point have I failed at debating, most assertions I have made, others have put forth supporting facts to back up my points.</p><p>I do have a problem with wizzys failing to be consistently better than other casters, I have seen Coercers and Illusionist beat wizzys on raids.</p><p>I also find it unreasonable that wizzy DPS (to be near the top of the parse) necesitates TC.  If they are truly DPS, their place on the parse should not be completely dependent on a chanter chosing to grace them with that almighty buff.</p></blockquote>You failed to debate anything at all! You state that others have brought forth supporting facts, and that is sound debate. I don't think anybody can overlook your issue with Wizard DPS, as you decided to make yourself a brand new post just to say that you will not be happy unless Wizards are the highest parsing caster. It truly amazing me that you would choose to post pure whine and further drown out the little substance in this forum, when you feel so strongly about the Wizard class.You seem sincere, and I commend you for trying to do something for your friend (or wife). I just simply cannot give you any respect when you crap on the wizard forum like this. Yes, this is a crap post. It's flame bait, and you know it.I'll tell you what though, let's work together man. Send me a PM with some parses and any relevant information. Look for my upcoming post.

[simpwrx02]

<p>Wizards are the highest parsing caster on average, they may not be top caster every fight, but they are constantly up there in teh caster ranks, almost none of the wizards is going to debate that fact.  Yes gear/spell quality affect this as well to a point, but only when the wizards gear/spell quality is significantly sub par when compared to other casters in a raid.  Yes group setup helps as well, being on a raid with 4 wizards 1 illy and 0 troubs will suck for all.  But any of the mage classes has a chance to be the top caster, but wizards have the best chance at it currently for every fight.</p><p>When i have TC i top the parsae for mages 80% of the time, when the lock has TC i top parses for mages ~60% of the time.  Most of the top end wizards ( I am not top end but in a VP clearing guild) will agree with wizzys topping mage parses.  However the main complaint is the GU 43 update which affects all casters and wizards feel it  hard when a 4-5 sec spell gets ressited, and even more so when it gets resisted 2+ times in a row.   However the chanter is affected as well as 1 resist normally drops prep and a huge chunk of cast haste, summoner may be the least affected by resists, but that is only saying on a scale of 1-10 on GU 43 suckage sorcs are 8, chanters 7.5 and summoners 7, so it hurts all mages especially when a raid has no brig.  Then the reduction to all spell based damage hurts sorc slightly harder since we have the larger % of a spells damage freom the true base amount, this is basically saying that chanters/summoners have a higher % of thier average spell hit from + spell damage and this is unaffected by the GU 43.</p>

[thajo]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> Then the reduction to all spell based damage hurts sorc slightly harder since we have the larger % of a spells damage freom the true base amount, this is basically saying that chanters/summoners have a higher % of thier average spell hit from + spell damage and this is unaffected by the GU 43.</p></blockquote>Could you expand on that?  What update was made to sorcs where we got our base damage adjusted?  I can think of two. 1. Back when Brainstorm was nerfed from 8% base damage to 4%, though we gained the ability to equip our secondary slot.2. Dragons Marrow (mythical) was originally giving 17% base damage instead of 10% as it reads.3. ????  Fill this one in for me =)Also while wizards are the top parsing classes it doesn't mean everyone who sits behind a wizard can hit any buttons and make it happen.  A skilled illusionist will out parse an unskilled wizard.  an unskilled wizard will outparse an unskilled illusionist.  A skilled wizard will beat a skilled illusionist.  I mean its not just a constant factor of truth that a wizard must out parse X class.  You have to actually make it out-parse the class.  I have seen wizards bring up the issue, then explain maybe their spell-casting order and it turns out their spell casting scheme is totally off.  I am more than willing to help people gear advice wise or spec wise or cast order wise....but as above people said you can't keep posting the same rhetoric and ambiguous rants.  Gotta break it down to finer points and see perhaps what you could fine tune.  Maybe its not even your fault and you will be bottle-necked on dps because your raid leader has no clue how to set groups up.  (i have heard of some pretty wild setups that I could never fathom, so I am certain there are guilds out there doing TOTALLY WHACK setups)So instead of saying wizzy dps blows....take wizard(s) in question, present gear, AA spec choices, casting order and common group setups.  I am willing to bet if there are dps complaints I could find a red flag in one or more of those 4 fields.

[simpwrx02]

<p>I think i worded that wrong, I mean with the GU 43 mitigation/wis bump to epic mobs.  Say wizard casts BoM it lands for 10k, wizard has 750 Spell damage, hence the base damage of the spell was 9250, I guess I shoudl have said damage not including +SD, where as say a chanter casts Beam it hits for 2800 and he has 750 SD or his true base damage was 2150 so in this example the wizards gains 8%from SD and the illy gains 35%.  So the GU 43 impacts a larger portion of the wizard damage than other casters as +SD is a fixed amount, well sorcs more specifiaclly.  where as Chanters/summoner get a larger % of thier DPS from SD gains as they can cap it on more spells.</p><p>So the GU43 updates lowerd the damage from all casters via the need for more debuffs to try to achieve pre GU 43 numbers, however the +SD amount per spell remains the same.  So mages that cap + SD on more spells lost slightly less dps from the GU 43.  Not saying it is a huge amount just that it affected sorcs a tiny bit more as we rely less on + SD for our DPS that other mages.</p><p>Hope I cleared that up.</p>

[thajo]

I see what your saying - without a doubt, in the wizzy scheme base damage makes our dps soar way more than spell damage.  I can swap around up to 200 spell damage and hardly notice dps differences.  Base damage and cast speed are pretty much our best friends <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />