A Trip down Memory Lane..... ahhhh I use to love my Templar

[Draag]

Pretty much retired him now.  The combat revamp made me quit EQ2 3 years ago... now I am back and still hate my templar.. but here are some pics of me back in the day, when Templars were kickass<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/Draagun/EQ2_000105.jpg" alt="" border="0" /><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/Draagun/EQ2_000101.jpg" alt="" border="0" /><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/Draagun/EQ2_000106.jpg" alt="" border="0" /><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/Draagun/EQ2_000068.jpg" alt="" border="0" />

[Ironcleaver]

Been playing a Templar for a long time myself. I have been thinking about the current state of the templar class and came to a few conclusions.1) we have little flavor, and no out of combat utility.2) slowest heals (parallel with defilers).3) we have the largest spot heals, but only by a pinch.4) our reactives are not scaling as much as our other heals, giving them kind of a diminishing returns. Reactives are also being triggered even if a ward is blocking a hit, again; noticed this happening the other night. My reactives would drop and even my repent would still be up. Didn't happen all the time, so it could be a bug.5) our reactives cap out at around +18% with +heals (regens and wards are 50%).6) most our armor sets modify spells that mean less to us (bloodlines), +2% to stoneskin is nice, but there has been no upgrade to that line since level 59 (so forget about getting a master of it).7) we have fewer heal lines or cure lines then shaman and druids.8 ) zero AAs to boost any of our healing (real healing not lotto healing) and other classes get new heals in their AA lines, or can even boost their current ones.9) we use plate, but the itemization is mainly leather or chain. Sure mitigation isn't the end all be all of our class, but it is part of our class. With the addition of mass-AOE-Double attacks in RE2, this is even more of an issue. The issue is compounded on raids, if a piece of leather drops, guess who gets first dibs... (just a note here, Im not sure if it is still true or not, but being a plate class we have plate avoidance, so really using leahter is a double negative for us?)10) we seem to have the largest power issues of all the healers, our spells are very costly. We can counter by using manawell items, but manawell items with good healer states are rare.11) our emergency reactives are painfully out of date 2x 350/450 reactives are nice, but when heroics are hitting for over 4 to 8k a hit, they mean little.12) manacure, dose it work? fact or fiction, no one knows...13) Our mit buff is a flat number, with diminishing returns, it's meaning less and less.Don't get me wrong, I like the class, or really, what the class could be, but we do need some love badly. A combination of the above is why most servers are flooded with druids and defilers. I noticed that most templars play a templar for what this type of healer stands for, perhaps even with a pinch or RP, and not so much for their "power". Those that want raw power go for other healer types, it seems at least.

[Ironcleaver]

Just to add some good points to balance the above a bit:1) Steadfast, Shield Ally and Divine Recovery.2) +2% boost to our stoneskin (costs 6 AA).3) Smite line boosted our DPS quite a bit for Soloing.4) our death blocker seems to always work (shaman and druid blockers seems to "miss" here and there).5) our flat HP buffs. Very good but only because there is no caps on HPs.

[dancemice]

<p>I hardly think that screenshots of the splitpaw god zone is a comparison to templar power.</p><p>i Think the op poster was refering how he used to be able to start combat, hit the reactives and walk away...</p><p>No loss <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>-B-</p>

[Isim]

<p>I came back 3 years after the downfall of the templar to see if anything has changed, and I read on the forums nothing has really changed for the class. The same issues remain with little done to bring the templar on par with the other healing classes.  My congradulations to those that stuck with it. </p>

[Enoa]

<p>There are alot of underpowered classes in eq2 but templar is not one of them.   In fact templars were voted one of hte overpowered classes on eq2flames so... </p><p>I found the 50's to be dull because of lack of groupage... in fact stop playing my templar a bit and leveled up an alt... however once you get into the "active" tier the fun begins.  </p><p>Only thing that sucks is how low the +heals on reactive cap out.  </p>

[dancemice]

<cite>Isim wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I came back 3 years after the downfall of the templar to see if anything has changed, and I read on the forums nothing has really changed for the class. The same issues remain with little done to bring the templar on par with the other healing classes.  My congradulations to those that stuck with it. </p></blockquote><p>Actually The Templar is very good at healing. We just do it differntly. Shamens ward, Furies Dot heal, and Templars have reactives. </p><p>What, were you considering par? My templar has cracked 5k heals on several occasions, and can outheal almost every other class on raid parses. Including mystics,defilers, wardens and furies. Add to this my Ward (Which you get at 80) and i can effectivly block and heal damage rather efficiently. I'm Not however a supreme dps class - Go bug the druids for that.</p><p>Hands down, I wouldn't trade my templar for any other healing class, but thats just me.</p><p>-B-</p>

[rollandheat]

Templar is useful because of his buffs, not heals, not dps. If you outparse shaman on raid, there is something wrong with shaman <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> Only in mass AOE you might get bonus with AOE lotto heals but this is rare occasion. The templar class is overall good with just minor glitches (cure AA, emergency reactives, reactives cap, glory).

[dancemice]

<p>I Wonder how many people who have only experimented with  a templar, or don't even play a templar are telling people how good templars are.</p><p>Yes. I'm a [Removed for Content] good player. So your telling me there must be something wrong with other players, and that my experience with my class have nothing to do with it.</p><p>Riiiight. </p><p>-B-</p>

[Kendricke]

<cite>Isim wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I came back 3 years after the downfall of the templar to see if anything has changed, and I read on the forums nothing has really changed for the class. The same issues remain with little done to bring the templar on par with the other healing classes.  My congradulations to those that stuck with it. </p></blockquote><p>What are you talking about?  Even shamans gripe to me about our Repent spell (a ward that also heals), and our Shield Ally (between that and Benediction, the right shield and the right adornments, etc, I'm outright blocking 35%+ of the incoming damage to my fighter before I ever need to even consider healing).  If you're coming back after three years and firing up the ole' level 50 Templar you left behind, you're coming back to a game with horrendous gear, ZERO achievement points (out of 140), and a mentality that is literally 3 expansions out of date.  </p><p>If you want to find out how to be a better Templar, go right ahead and ask.  If you want to try to convince me that Templars are less powerful than other healers, you better come to the table with a bit more than "nothing has really changed for the class".  Which discussion threads did you base that opinion on?  </p>

[rollandheat]

<cite>Tbiggs@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I Wonder how many people who have only experimented with  a templar, or don't even play a templar are telling people how good templars are.</p><p>Yes. I'm a [I cannot control my vocabulary] good player. So your telling me there must be something wrong with other players, and that my experience with my class have nothing to do with it.</p><p>Riiiight. </p><p>-B-</p></blockquote>I am comparing 2 equal skilled players with equal equip, one templar, one saman in MT grp. It wont be fair to compare skilled or equipped templar to sucking shaman, wont it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />. I dont count stoneskin and shield ally which will shift balance to favor templar.I dont think I am very good templar, but I think I am pretty good too <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />

[dancemice]

<p>Gee. In a lot of the raids i goto, People usually have better equipment then me, And i still out heal them. Wonder why.</p><p>Edit - This thread is pointless however, Nothing i say will make a person who hates a class suddenly like it. Results, Not words are what count. The days (Especially with rok) where you could start an encounter. Hit your reactives and walk away are long gone, with 2-3 revamps now in place (Gu 13, And the mitigation revamp and stat revamp)</p><p>I'll say it one last time. The templar is equal to any other healing class out there. We All however play differently. The templar is a great healer and has excelllent survivability - However the price the templar pays for this is in thier dps. It takes forever and then lunch to kill things. (Even if you have dps spec +dps gear like i do) We Excell at healing plate wearing classes and do well with chain wearng classe, With longer recast times however we don't do so well with cloth wearing classes however.</p><p>A well played templar with always land inthe top 3 on any raid parse. (Healing) And i've been as high as 9 on dps on raid parse (out of 18 people) (10 out of 24)</p><p>-B-</p>

[Isim]

<p>If you want to find out how to be a better Templar, go right ahead and ask.  If you want to try to convince me that Templars are less powerful than other healers, you better come to the table with a bit more than "nothing has really changed for the class".  Which discussion threads did you base that opinion on?  </p><p>I was there when LU 13(if i remember right) went live and the templar was brought in line with the other healers. All healers are on par with each other.... thats when they made us the lotto class with our support spells. If you get lucky you are great and if you arent well then you better be a great player. 3 years and I look at the 2 sticky posts on how to improve or fix the class and they still have the same main issues, mainly mitigation/DPS/interupts. </p><p>Ken you were right about the new templars, they dont miss what they never had. I know you have been the most die hard of the templars, always looking on the good sign of any change (good or bad). So I have a question for you how many levels above a mob does a templar have to be able to one shot them? </p>

[dancemice]

<p>if it's undead, about 40.</p><p>If it's not undead about 40.</p><p>Hope that helps.</p><p>-B-</p>

[Kendricke]

<cite>Isim wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>Ken you were right about the new templars, they dont miss what they never had. I know you have been the most die hard of the templars, always looking on the good sign of any change (good or bad). So I have a question for you how many levels above a mob does a templar have to be able to one shot them? </p></blockquote><p>What are you trying to prove here?  You started the post by using Harclave to show when the Templar was "powerful".  The Harclave run made EVERYONE powerful back then.  </p><p>Then you claim that Update 13 made all healers "on par with each other".  We're about to see Update 47.  Have you read through the notes of all the Updates which took place between Update 14 and 46.  You realize that there were some minor combat updates that took place along the way?  You realize that the only healer class who really outparses us on any consistent level is Fury, and they can't come CLOSE to our defensive buffs and healing capabilities (seriously, I can drop over 2000 points of health on up to three group members, outright block ~40% of the incoming damage on one group member, completely block most control effects for my entire group for up to 40 seconds, and on top of that I have one of the most powerful single target heals in the game:  repent).  </p><p>You're entitled to your opinion, of course.  However, I'm equally entitled to ask what you're basing that opinion on.  You talk about new templars never missing what they never had.  You have no idea what you've missed in the past three years.  You're talking about "when Templars were powerful".  Templars are powerful NOW.  In fact, I'd argue we've never been more powerful, and yes - I was there at the beginning.  I was there in beta when we had regenerations and wards, too.  So when I tell you with a straight face that Templars are more powerful now than they were then, I might - just might have something to back my opinion that equates to more than 2-3 years of fuzzy memory and a couple of screenshots from an overpowered buff that affected every class.</p><p>What were you parsing back in 2005?  What were you parsing in Kingdom of Sky?  Even with the changes made with Rise of Kunark to Tier 8 monsters that made them more powerful, I'm STILL parsing over 1,200 while soloing and hitting well over 1,600 in groups...and that's with nearly all group/quest/faction DPS gear.  I know furies who aren't hitting those numbers.  </p><p>Asking how many levels we need to be above something to one shot it is ridiculous.  That's not a sign of strength or balance.  That's a sign of ego.</p>

[Isim]

<p>What are you trying to prove here?  You started the post by using Harclave to show when the Templar was "powerful".  The Harclave run made EVERYONE powerful back then.</p><p>ken you are confusing me with the op. You answer my question with this statement "Asking how many levels we need to be above something to one shot it is ridiculous.  That's not a sign of strength or balance.  That's a sign of ego." I expected more from a person who prides himself with just the facts and stats, I person that has played since beta, oh well I am glad someone else did answer the question for me.</p><p> anyway didnt mean to get you so up tight about it, see you after another 30 GU's</p>

[mafoe]

<cite>Ironcleaver wrote:</cite><blockquote>Been playing a Templar for a long time myself. I have been thinking about the current state of the templar class and came to a few conclusions.1) we have little flavor, and no out of combat utility.2) slowest heals (parallel with defilers).3) we have the largest spot heals, but only by a pinch.4) our reactives are not scaling as much as our other heals, giving them kind of a diminishing returns. Reactives are also being triggered even if a ward is blocking a hit, again; noticed this happening the other night. My reactives would drop and even my repent would still be up. Didn't happen all the time, so it could be a bug.5) our reactives cap out at around +18% with +heals (regens and wards are 50%).6) most our armor sets modify spells that mean less to us (bloodlines), +2% to stoneskin is nice, but there has been no upgrade to that line since level 59 (so forget about getting a master of it).7) we have fewer heal lines or cure lines then shaman and druids.8 ) zero AAs to boost any of our healing (real healing not lotto healing) and other classes get new heals in their AA lines, or can even boost their current ones.9) we use plate, but the itemization is mainly leather or chain. Sure mitigation isn't the end all be all of our class, but it is part of our class. With the addition of mass-AOE-Double attacks in RE2, this is even more of an issue. The issue is compounded on raids, if a piece of leather drops, guess who gets first dibs... (just a note here, Im not sure if it is still true or not, but being a plate class we have plate avoidance, so really using leahter is a double negative for us?)10) we seem to have the largest power issues of all the healers, our spells are very costly. We can counter by using manawell items, but manawell items with good healer states are rare.11) our emergency reactives are painfully out of date 2x 350/450 reactives are nice, but when heroics are hitting for over 4 to 8k a hit, they mean little.12) manacure, dose it work? fact or fiction, no one knows...13) Our mit buff is a flat number, with diminishing returns, it's meaning less and less.Don't get me wrong, I like the class, or really, what the class could be, but we do need some love badly. A combination of the above is why most servers are flooded with druids and defilers. I noticed that most templars play a templar for what this type of healer stands for, perhaps even with a pinch or RP, and not so much for their "power". Those that want raw power go for other healer types, it seems at least.</blockquote>1) We have a lot of flavour. The templar is a great healer class, best to be used when the fight is hard. Utility: Odyssee. Soothe. (Most underrated ability ever)2) Slow, so what? Fast doesnt mean good.3) 4) Reactives are really badly scaling, aye. I hope the epic weapon changes will fix that. We still heal well without the changes.5) That's unfair indeed, but we'd be overpowered with 50% cap on reactives.6) I've gotten the master from broker. Or you could farm it.7) Fewer heal lines? What does that even mean? Proof?<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If you think lotto heals are not real heals, pls try using them. In melee AOE fights (Thuuga/PB trash), they're our no1 heals.9) There are enough decent plate items we can use. And it doesn't hurt much to get a chain or leather item after all other healers have it.10) Use the proper items, then you won't have power problems. Mana Well, the shiny girdle, the Book of Immortals... You lose a few heal crit%, but so what?11) Emergency heals are awful. NEED FIX ASAP.12) I am willing to bet quite a handful of AA abilities are underpowered or working weird, not only templar ones.13) EVERY healers MIT buff is a flat number. What's your point?Long list of items, with only 2 relevant concerns. WTG:

[Ironcleaver]

Thank you for your replay, there are more then two on the list that are concerns when you don't include "perfect" equipment as a solution. We do fine as healers as the moment, but hardly "overpowered" as other healers are calling us.<span class="postbody">1) We have a few under-rated spells, but those don't really add flavor - at least not the flavor that could be there.2) Slow means everything. We are the "slowest" because we have the "biggest" heals, but this isn't really true anymore. I've seen the MT group get wacked by an AE dropping everyone down to near 25% health, by the time I'm done casting my 5s group heal, their already healed to full. Speed is everything.3) Our spots are identical to defilers4) I too hope these start scaling better5) Perhaps 50% is too much, but would 25 or 30%?6) have to admit it's insanely rare though, and a focus of our relic armor7) We have more then a Inq, but fewer then other healers.8 ) Ohh I use them and love them, but would be nice to get AAs to boost out main heals or get new heals like most other healers.9) This is getting better, but it is still an issue. 4 druids on a raid, its going to be a long wait for that rare piece of leather - very happy this is changing though.10) Seeing how heal crits is the only way to boost our underpowered reactives, every bit is needed. Though I agree, I can slap on 7 manawell items and have zero issues - but why should I have to give up healing for power efficiency?11) agreed, I believe they stopped scaling at level 50 - Im sure this is an issue with all healers though.12) Manacure might be working but its difficult to verify, if even possible.13) if your tank is near or at the cap that 800+ mit buff really means nothing, and why should our main buff mean nothing?I'm not flat out crying here but the above are issues with our class and why druids are a dime a dozen, at least on AB server. And no, I have no interest in playing a druid, but I do have an interest in making the templar class what it could be.</span>

[mafoe]

<p>Wow, you are entirely too negative. Are you playing in a casual guild? Because you seem to think druids have it so good... many HC guilds raid without a warden because wardens give so little, and some even replaced the fury in the mage group with a templar. So druids really have problems in RoK, and templars+mystics have gained raid spots at the cost of druids and inquisitors. If your guild handles it differently, well...</p><p>In a raid, we bring lots of flavour and probably the most diversity to the table than any other healing class. The 2 biggest feats are Shield Ally and Stoneskin, which are absolute lifesavers in ROK. Maxing Shield Ally will give you far better boni than maxing your heal crit. %parry-adornments, Guard of Drelikus, and you can keep loads of damage away from the MT. No flavour? Sanctuary, Divine Arbitration, Divine Recovery, Reverence, lotto heals that can be overpowered in some fights, Shield of Faith, and maybe Steadfast? That's bucketloads of flavour. Sanctuary alone is a spell so useful and unique that without it, many pulls would become really unstable.</p><p> If your MT group drops to 25% from an AOE, then your defiler is slacking. This never happened to me in nearly 7 months of ROK. And having our reactives cap out so early is annoying, but it also gives us the chance to put on other items with Overloaded Heal, Manawell, other power procs, Runic Cover, Shelter, etc. I can fill up most of a group's health with my group heal because Overloaded Heal is so powerful. And if that isn't enough, I cast my group reactive as a second group heal, because it will proc more heals. If you are an MT templar, you should need about 3 power proc'ing items, and that's it - your power stays above 90%. Not 20 items, 3.</p><p> And slow means nothing indeed. First, you can speed that up and shave off higher numbers from your cast times than healers with fast heals can, and having big heals that are difficult/slow to use is a lot better than having fast but small heals. The only spell that's really too slow imo is the big ST heal. The other heals are very fast, and if you can't get your group heal off before another healer can, then you're too slow with the button, it would seem. Yes, druids can cast theirs faster, but it's a HoT. It doesn't fill up all health immediately. Besides I don't know why you're grouped with a druid to begin with.</p><p>And lastly, why are you complaining about our MIT buff being less useful when all other healers have the exact same problem with their MIT buff? WHat's the point? This point carries no weight concerning who is overpowered and who not.</p><p>If you really think druids are so hot, then something's wrong. I, as a tank, would prefer shaman or a templar any day over a druid. And in a raid, in the MT or OT group, druids have long lost their hold. And the day a druid outparses me zonewide in ROK will never come.</p>

[Draag]

Sorry, I abandoned my own thread.  My templar made me hate eq2...  I quit in 2005 after the combat revamp that (i felt) gimped my character.  I was sick to have played him to nearly max level at the time to have the rug pulled out from underneath me.The good news is, I had a 27 Necromancer and since I started back for the free trial, I have leveled him to 65 (66 today probably) and I am actually having fun in the game again.  Guess templar just doesn't match my play style. go go necro power!