Proposed Brawler archetype adjustments. Constructive input needed. [Archive]

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Wyndrith

06-13-2008, 07:02 AM

Here are the proposed class adjustments for both the Monk and Bruiser subclasses. These ideas are focused upon improving and balancing the Brawler archetype's overall functionality, and allowing compensation for certain weak points, namely the end-game tanking aspects. Achievement Ability lines will also be addressed to encourage the use of Fist-class weapons (to an extent), which have been long ignored by the developers. Please read them thoroughly and if you have any criticisms, helpful suggestions, or constructive input, please don't hesitate to mention your thoughts. Also refrain from using profane language so your replies can be clearly read. ----------------- Part I: Combat Arts: ----------------------For MonksProposal #1 - Introduction of a new stance line.Ability name(Level)-Stance: Chi Focus(10), Stance: Chi Vigor(30), Stance: Chi Enlightenment(50), Stance: Chi Embodiment(70)Target: SelfCasting: 0.50 SecondsRecast: InstantDuration: Until CancelledIncreases the Monk's melee accuracy, base avoidance, and magic damage mitigation at the cost of severely reducing physical damage mitigation.Stance: Chi Focus line starting attributes (at level 10). * - Indicates that values presented for that attribute are subject to change from higher tiers of the combat art, and from Apprentice I-IV, Adept I & III, and Master I.Effects:<ul><li>*Increases the melee accuracy of caster by 10%</li><li>Doubles the effect that Agility has on the caster's base avoidance</li><ul><li>Base avoidance cap becomes 75%</li><ul><li>Ignores level difference and Epic or Heroic strength penalties</li></ul></ul></ul><ul><li>*Increases magic damage mitigation of caster by 120</li><li>Decreases the caster's overall physical damage mitigation to a cap of 15%</li></ul>As a point of reference-Stance: Chi Embodiment(70) Master IEffects:<ul><li>Increases melee accuracy of caster by 25%</li><li>Doubles the effect that Agility has on the caster's base avoidance</li><ul><li>Base avoidance cap becomes 75%</li><ul><li>Ignores level difference and Epic or Heroic strength penalties</li></ul></ul></ul><ul><li>Increases magic damage mitigation of caster by 1200</li><li>Decreases the caster's overall physical damage mitigation to a cap of 15%</li></ul> ------------------------------------Proposal #2 - Introduction of an augmentative combat art. Ability name(Level)-Channeled Strikes(40)Target: SelfCasting: 0.50 SecondsRecast: 4 MinutesDuration: 1 Minute 30 SecondsIncreases the Monk's potency against Epic targets with certain Combat Art lines. This ability also increases the power cost of the associated Combat Arts.Effects:<ul><li>Reduces the Knockdown duration for Crane Sweep and the Pouncing Leopard and Thrust Kick combat art lines by 25%. The power cost for these abilities is increased by 25%</li><ul><li>If target is Epic</li></ul></ul><ul><li>Removes the Epic target component from Eagle Spin, instead reducing the duration of its effects by 25%. The power cost for Eagle Spin is increased by 25%</li><ul><li>If target is Epic</li></ul></ul><ul><li>Reduces the daze duration of the Winter's Talon combat art line by 25% and increases the power cost by 25%</li><ul><li>If target is Epic</li></ul></ul>***Obtained by completing a T5 heroic quest (line)? ------------------------------------Proposal #3 - Enhanced utility of existing combat arts.Ability name(Level)-Mend(20), Compress(34), Heal(48) *I have left out the Focus(3) and Patch(10) abilities.Current attribute >> Proposed change Target: Friend >> Target: SelfCasting: 1 Second Recast: 3 Minutes Range: Up to 5.0 Meters >> Effect Radius: 30 MetersHeals the Monk's group and cures noxious impairments. This ability also temporarily increases the max health of group members in range.Mend line starting attributes (at level 20). *- Indicates that values presented for that attribute are subject tochange from higher tiers of the combat art, and from Apprentice I-IV, Adept I & III, and Master I.Effects:<ul><li>*Heals caster's group for x% of max health</li><li>*Dispels x levels of any noxious hostile effects of group (AE)</li><li>Applies Veil of Puissance to group members (AE). Lasts 25 seconds.</li><ul><li>Increases max health of group members (AE) by 10%.</li><li>Will not overwrite or stack with existing effect of others</li></ul><li>Applies Cosmic Cleanse to group members (AE). Lasts 15 seconds.</li><ul><li>Heals group members (AE) for 5% of max health every 5 seconds</li><li>Will not overwrite or stack with existing effect of others</li></ul></ul>Ability name(Level)-Will of the Void(13), Will of the Serpent (27), Will of the Wind(41), Will of the Sky (55) , Will of the Heavens(69), Will of the Wise(79)Current attribute >> Proposed change Power: *30Target: Friend >> Target: SelfCasting: 1 Second Recast: 2 Minutes Range: Up to 5.0 Meters >> Effect Radius: 30 MetersDispels hostile mental effects of group members (AE) and temporarily increases their mitigation to such effects. This ability can be used while stifled or stunned.Will of the Void line starting attributes (at level 13). *- Indicates that values presented for that attribute are subject to change from higher tiers of the combat art, and from Apprentice I-IV, Adept I & III, and Master I.Effects:<ul><li>*Dispels x levels of any elemental, mental, disease, and poison hostile effects of group(AE)</li><li>Applies Veil of Detoxification to group members (AE). Lasts 15 seconds.</li><ul><li>Increases the effective elemental, mental, disease, and poison mitigation of group members (AE) by 100% (In effect, doubling it.)</li><li>Will not overwrite or stack with existing effect of others</li></ul></ul> ------------------------------------ Catch your breath yet? Onto the Bruiser section, yay!For BruisersProposal #1 - Introduction of a new stance line.Ability name(Level)-Stance: Karmic Focus(10), Stance: Karmic Vigor(30), Stance: Karmic Enlightenment(50), Stance: Karmic Embodiment(70)Target: SelfCasting: 0.50 SecondsRecast: InstantDuration: Until CancelledIncreases the Bruiser's Damage Per Second, slashing and crushing skill, and base avoidance at the cost of severely reducing physical damage mitigation.Stance: Karmic Focus line starting attributes (at level 10). *- Indicates that values presented for that attribute are subject to change from higher tiers of the combat art, and from Apprentice I-IV, Adept I & III, and Master I.Effects:<ul><li>*Increases the Damage Per Second of caster by 10</li><li>*Increases the slashing and crushing skill of caster by 2.0</li><li>Doubles the effect that Agility has on the caster's base avoidance</li><ul><li>Base avoidance cap becomes 75%</li><ul><li>Ignores level difference and Epic or Heroic strength penalties</li></ul></ul></ul><ul><li>Decreases the caster's overall physical damage mitigation to a cap of 15%</li></ul>As a point of reference-Stance: Karmic Embodiment(70) Master IEffects:<ul><li>*Increases the Damage Per Second of caster by 25</li><li>*Increases the slashing and crushing skill of caster by 20.0</li><li>Doubles the effect that Agility has on the caster's base avoidance</li><ul><li>Base avoidance cap becomes 75%</li><ul><li>Ignores level difference and Epic or Heroic strength penalties</li></ul></ul></ul><ul><li>Decreases the caster's overall physical damage mitigation to a cap of 15%</li></ul> ------------------------------------Proposal #2 - Introduction of an augmentative combat art. Ability name(Level)-Divine Assault(40)Target: SelfCasting: 0.50 SecondsRecast: 5 MinutesDuration: 2 Minutes 30 SecondsIncreases the Bruiser's potency against Epic targets with certain Combat Art lines. This ability also increases the power cost and reuse time of the associated Combat Arts.Effects:<ul><li>Retains the Knockdown component of Crane Sweep and the Stamp, Haymaker, and Shoulder Charge combat art lines. The power cost and reuse time for these abilities is increased by 50%</li><ul><li>If target is Epic</li></ul></ul><ul><li>Removes the Epic target component from Eagle Spin. The power cost and reuse time for Eagle Spin is increased by 50%</li><ul><li>If target is Epic</li></ul></ul><ul><li>Retains the daze duration of the Sucker Punch combat art line. The power cost and reuse time for Sucker Punch is increased by 50%</li><ul><li>If target is Epic</li></ul></ul>***Obtained by completing a T5 heroic quest (line)? ------------------------------------Proposal #3 - Enhanced utility of existing combat arts.Ability name(Level)-Ignore Wounds(10), Ignore Pain(20), Ignore Hurt(34), Ignore Agony(48) *I have left out Ignore Bruises(3)Current attribute >> Proposed change Target: Friend >> Target: SelfCasting: 1 Second Recast: 3 Minutes Range: Up to 5.0 Meters >> Effect Radius: 30 MetersHeals the Bruiser's group. This ability also temporarily wards the Bruiser's group against some physical damage.Ignore Wounds line starting attributes (at level 10). *- Indicates that values presented for that attribute are subject to change from higher tiers of the combat art, and from Apprentice I-IV, Adept I & III, and Master I.Effects:<ul><li>*Heals caster's group for x% of max health</li><li>Applies Aegis of Vitality to group members (AE). Lasts 25 seconds.</li><ul><li>Wards group members against 35% of all physical damage.</li><li>Will not overwrite or stack with existing effect of others</li></ul></ul>Ability name(Level)-Indomitable Will(15), Burning Will (27), Cerebral Will(41), Resolute Will (55) , Tenacious Will(69), Tenacity(79)Current attribute >> Proposed change Power: *30Target: Friend >> Target: SelfCasting: 1 Second Recast: 2 Minutes Range: Up to 5.0 Meters >> Effect Radius: 30 MetersDispels hostile mental and trauma effects of group members (AE) and temporarily wards group members to such effects. This ability can be used while stifled or stunned.Indomitable Will line starting attributes (at level 15). *- Indicates that values presented for that attribute are subject to change from higher tiers of the combat art, and from Apprentice I-IV, Adept I & III, and Master I.Effects:<ul><li>*Dispels x levels of any physical, magic, mental, and divine hostile effects of group(AE)</li><li>Applies Harmonic Ward to group members (AE). Lasts 15 seconds.</li><ul><li>Wards group members (AE) against any physical, magic, mental, and divine hostile effects.</li><li>Will not overwrite or stack with existing effect of others</li></ul></ul>

Wyndrith

06-13-2008, 07:03 AM

----------------- Part II: Brawler Achievements ----------------------For Monks and BruisersProposal #1 - Bare-handed components adjustments to existing Achievements Abilities.** - Indicates proposed adjustment or addition.* - Indicates attribute values are subject to change with ability rank.Ability name(Stat Line)-Pressure Point(STR Line)Current attributeAn unarmed melee attack that cannot be blocked, parried, deflected, or riposted and lowers their crushing resistance.Target: EnemyPower: 19Casting: 0.50 secondsRecast: 30 secondsDuration: 30 secondsRange: Up to 5.0 metersHit Bonus: 25% easierEffects:<ul><li>*Decreases Mitigation of target versus crushing damage by 122</li><li>*Inflicts 80-133 melee damage on target</li><li> If Primary slot is empty </li><li> If Secondary slot is empty</li></ul>**<ul><li>*Decreases Mitigation of target versus slashing and crushing damage by 78</li><li>*Inflicts 50-93 melee damage on target</li><li>If Primary slot is Fist class weapon.</li><li>If Secondary slot is Fist class weapon. (Please note this does not imply only crush damage weapons)</li></ul>Ability name(Stat Line)-Relentless Punches(STR Line)Current attributeWhile the Tiger Sifu is fighting unarmed, they gain an increase to their base auto-attack damage, and increased rank also increases their chance of striking twice with auto-attack.Effects:<ul><li>*Caster will Double Attack on 12% of melee attacks</li><li>Increases Damage Per Second of caster by 20</li><li>If Primary slot is empty</li><li>If Secondary slot is empty</li></ul>**<ul><li>*Caster will Double Attack on 4% of melee attacks</li><li>Increases Damage Per Second of caster by 10</li><li>If Primary slot is Fist class weapon.</li><li>If Secondary slot is Fist class weapon. (Please note this does not imply only crush damage weapons)</li></ul>Ability name(Stat Line)-Claw Reversal(STR Line)Current attributeWhile fighting unarmed, the Tiger Sifu has an outright chance to riposte melee attacks.Effects:<ul><li>*Caster will Riposte 1.5% of incoming frontal attacks. Attacks from other quadrants have the same chance of being Parried</li><li>If Primary slot is empty</li><li>If Secondary slot is empty</li></ul>**<ul><li>*Caster will Riposte 0.8% of incoming frontal attacks. Attacks from other quadrants have the same chance of being Parried</li><li>If Primary slot is Fist class weapon.</li><li>If Secondary slot is Fist class weapon. (Please note this does not imply only crush damage weapons)</li></ul>

Wyndrith

06-13-2008, 07:04 AM

----------------- Part III: The Brawler's Physique----------------------Proposal #1 - Adjusted Stamina: Health ratio. Adjusted Strength: Health ratio.** - Indicates proposed change.Attribute(Effect)-Stamina(Increases your maximum health)Effect: <ul><li>Stamina is the primary attribute for health.</li></ul> ** <ul><li>Increase the effectiveness of Stamina on health by 50%</li><ul><li>If Monk or Bruiser</li></ul></ul> Attribute(Effect)- Strength(Determines how much weight you can carry and increases your melee damage and maximum power) <ul><li>Although unofficially mentioned, and with few obscure sources, Strength indeed seems to be a secondary attribute for health (As a Brawler, anyway). The impact is noticably less on health than Stamina, but it is there.</li></ul> ** <ul><li>Increase the effectiveness of Strength on health by 50%</li><ul><li>If Monk or Bruiser</li></ul></ul> And those are my thoughts on what should be implemented in LU46. Though as extensive and drastic as some of these may seem, imo they're a step towards the Brawler fighter class reformation.

Aull

06-13-2008, 09:20 AM

Thank you for your input here and time to do all of this. Very nicely done. If any of this was actually implimented I would betray to a monk.For bruiser: divine assault<ul><li>Retains the Knockdown component of Crane Sweep and the Stamp, Haymaker, and Shoulder Charge combat art lines. The power cost and reuse time for these abilities is increased by 50% <ul><li>If target is Epic</li></ul></li><li>Removes the Epic target component from Eagle Spin. The power cost and reuse time for Eagle Spin is increased by 50% <ul><li>If target is Epic</li></ul></li><li>Retains the daze duration of the Sucker Punch combat art line. The power cost and reuse time for Sucker Punch is increased by 50%</li><li>If target is Epic</li></ul>For monk: channeld strikes<ul><li>Reduces the Knockdown duration for Crane Sweep and the Pouncing Leopard and Thrust Kick combat art lines by 25%. The power cost for these abilities is increased by 25% <ul><li>If target is Epic</li></ul></li></ul><ul><li>Removes the Epic target component from Eagle Spin, instead reducing the duration of its effects by 25%. The power cost for Eagle Spin is increased by 25% <ul><li>If target is Epic</li></ul></li></ul><ul><li>Reduces the daze duration of the Winter's Talon combat art line by 25% and increases the power cost by 25% <ul><li>If target is Epic</li></ul></li></ul>Ok just my opinion here but why do the bruisers get both an increase power cost and reuse timer at 50% where the monk only gets a 25% increase to power cost. I feel this again would totally be in favor of a monk and is leaving out what bruisers need and that is a way in modify our auto attack. I don't think bruisers need any more increased power and reuse timers on any of their combat arts. If a bruiser isn't melee buffed with haste in most raid fights will burn twice the power of a monk as it is currently.Monk chi focus:<ul><li>Increases melee accuracy of caster by 25% </li><li>Doubles the effect that Agility has on the caster's base avoidance <ul><li>Base avoidance cap becomes 75% <ul><li>Ignores level difference and Epic or Heroic strength penalties</li></ul></li></ul></li></ul><ul><li>Increases magic damage mitigation of caster by 1200 </li><li>Decreases the caster's overall physical damage mitigation to a cap of 15%</li></ul>Bruiser Karmic focus: <ul><li>*Increases the Damage Per Second of caster by 25</li><li>*Increases the slashing and crushing skill of caster by 20.0</li><li>Doubles the effect that Agility has on the caster's base avoidance <ul><li>Base avoidance cap becomes 75% <ul><li>Ignores level difference and Epic or Heroic strength penalties</li></ul></li></ul></li></ul><ul><li>Decreases the caster's overall physical damage mitigation to a cap of 15% </li></ul>Not bad Ideas here.All the rest seem very interesting. Please understand that I am not trying to flame you. You did made a huge effort by taking the time to think of this and I do appreciate it very much! As it currently stands my bruiser is going on vaction and I do not plan to give any more attention to him atm. Bruisers are a fun class but I personally feel monks are the better class. Just being able to tank, give others haste melee/spell casting, possibly save the group, heal others occasionally, and can dps is why I am seeing monks as awesome.Thanks for your efforts.

evilgamer

06-13-2008, 10:42 AM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok just my opinion here but why do the bruisers get both an increase power cost and reuse timer at 50% where the monk only gets a 25% increase to power cost. I feel this again would totally be in favor of a monk and is leaving out what bruisers need and that is a way in modify our auto attack. I don't think bruisers need any more increased power and reuse timers on any of their combat arts. All the rest seem very interesting. Please understand that I am not trying to flame you. You did made a huge effort by taking the time to think of this and I do appreciate it very much! As it currently stands my bruiser is going on vaction and I do not plan to give any more attention to him atm. Bruisers are a fun class but I personally feel monks are the better class. Just being able to tank, give others haste melee/spell casting, possibly save the group, heal others occasionally, and can dps is why I am seeing monks as awesome.Thanks for your efforts.</blockquote>/agree.Monks already are better then us. We dont need to any more disadvantages.I still want my raid buff to go back to +dps instead of the current craptastic +CA/taunt.

Tanino

06-13-2008, 11:27 AM

I appreciate the effort but considering that SOE does not listen to the brawler community now, don't you think the changes are a little too complex? That's why I wish there was a simple way to fix the brawler problems without really changing the whole class inside and out.I am only familiar with the bruiser but off the top of my head the only thing that just needs to be totally thrown out and redone is the bruiser intercede line as it's just plain garbage the way it's setup. The stance portion even though not a bad idea, I can't see brawlers having 4 stances when we already have 3 which is one more than most classes.All of the changes I am thinking of would make the bruiser a better tank, which it clearly should be compared to an assasin or another scout class. I watched an assasin tank COA about a month ago and it was the most discouraging thing I had seen in a long time as it showed just bad the brawler community is getting shafted. As we are technically a tank class I would point to items that make our tanking abilites better or increase our damage in the event that we are tanking. I don't expect to out tank a guard and I don't expect to out damage an assasin, but right now a Guard with a buckler can out tank us easily and still match our dps given about equal gear as long as they are tanking.So right off the top of my head these are some changes I would suggest making.1. Defensive Stance - Increases the casters effectiveness of worn armor vs all physical damage by 30%Our mitigation is so low to begin with that even increasing it by 5% will make little difference, but atleast makes the stance a little more attractive considering the offensive penalties you take.2. Riposte Damage - Currently if I understand it correctly 25% of all parries are ripostes, well that is nice for other tanks but not of any use to us considering most our avoidance is deflection based. Depending on which one is easier to code, I would say make 25% of all deflections riposte or 100% of all parries riposte for brawler. This again will only benefit a person that is tanking and overall does not increase their defensive ability but encourages them to tank.3. Brawler Strength Line: Keep it essentially the same just modify the line to allow use of weapons. Relentless Punches is the only thing that needs to be changed and I think anyone that has read the board knows the solution it's just a matter of deciding on the DA percentage.4. Crane Growth - Change to increase max health per AA point to 1% instead of .5% for a total possible of 8% (.75% is another option)5. Rock Skin - This is another difficult one to fix but my recommendation would be root or slow caster instead of stun and reduce attack speed by 25%. Compare to Guardian Wall of Armor which is even better and has a quicker refresh time. Don't think the bruiser one should beat it, but the difference shouldn't be as huge as it is to the point where it's never even used.6. Shake Off - Make a level 80 version of this ability with the master 1 having a change to use bruiser's avoidance go to 61% and increase the casters agility 84.The other change would be completely doing the intercede line but I truely don't even have a suggestion for that except to remove Intervene and Intercept as options.I did mention a good number of changes but to me those all make the bruiser a better tank which in turn would make them a viable tank in certain raid situations, for adds, split mobs, etc. It will require work on the bruisers part to get the most out of the class and I like the big difference between the defensive and offensive stances as it makes the bruiser make a very big decision between dps and survivability. Just try doing an intercede in lower Seb in offensive.... one intercede took off 80% of my life, while in defensive it was maybe only 25%. But I like situations where I have to be on my toes.Hopefully that confused everyone just a little more. Too bad SOE will not make these changes. But if any changes are to be made I think we need to focus on abilites that point to fighter class, otherwise we are just spinning our wheels. Thanks!

Rayche

06-13-2008, 01:58 PM

I would welcome any improvements honestly.I think the biggest thing would be to make the tanking ability curve properly and give Brawlers a MEANINGFUL avoidance ability above and beyond their other fighter and scout counterparts.Plate and Chain classes shouldn't be able to reach beyond 75% of a Brawlers avoidance.10 second-ish Auto-Riposte abilities for Brawlers should be part of their rescue ability. We don't have time for the rest of our group/raid to realize that we've pulled the mob off a healer.

Tanino

06-15-2008, 07:49 PM

Anyone have any fixes that don't involve nerfing another class?

Aonach

06-16-2008, 06:21 AM

I think we have to take the DPS boost. I raid with a VP tagged end game guild and never have they said to me "I wish you were a better tank, so you can tank <insert VP named mob here>".What I constantly get is "your DPS needs to be 500 - 1000 more than it is". Problem is people expect brawlers to dps somewhere around the scout classes like we did in T7. We don't. I am further down the raid wide parse list than I was in T7 and it's frankly depressing. Brawlers get stuck in the "fat kid" group with little or no buffs which just makes the problem worse.This game doesn't require us to be raid tanks in RoK, what it does require us is to be able to DPS properly and we can't do that. Hell there is a mystic in our guild that can out DPS me sometimes. Now that is just plain wrong and very, very depressing.And for anyone who is about to post "learn your class" here is a pre-emptive sigh.

Novusod

06-16-2008, 02:18 PM

I am asked as a Bruiser to tank sometimes such as in the rotation of Master P in Shard of Hate. The bruiser is the only tank that can't tank and I am tired of being one shotted by epics. The bruiser should be able to tank like any other fighter. There is also the secondary problem that other fighters were given extra utility except the Bruiser which still has zero utility. This leaves the bruiser to fill a pure dps role but the thing is as soon as our dps starts to get up in to scout territory the scouts cry nerf. As it stands the bruiser is basically a broken class when it comes to raiding. Bruiser can't tank, has no utility, and is not allowed to dps so what is the bruiser's role in a raid?Any proposed changes should really focus on improved tanking and giving us a utility role. Tanking is pretty simple bruisers just need to have more mitigation and more avoidance. It does not matter how we get it it just need to happen some way or another. In terms of utility there have been dozens of suggestions made. Popular suggestions have been: group (AE) self heal, group (AE) KO combo, raid wide closed mind and stone deaf.

Aonach

06-16-2008, 02:43 PM

Tanking the sisters is easy. In fact tanking anything up to Levi is pretty straight forward and certainly doable for a bruiser. The question is why though? Why would any raid ever want a bruiser to tank when they have a guardian and a zerker available to do it?We need to focus on what we are in raids. Off tanks for trash and DPS. So give us more DPS, I don't want to tank VP named, I never wanted to tank end game named raid mobs as a brawler. I do however want and expect to be able to outparse healers ^.^ by a substantial margin on raids and currently that gap is narrowing by each GU we get. We have no place in raids currently other than FD/rez bots for wipes in VP and frankly it is pathetic.

Aull

06-16-2008, 03:46 PM

I just feel that there isn't much distinction between some of the classes anymore. With there being a good and evil....paladin/shadowknight....monk/bruiser as examples shouldn't one be better at defense and the other better at offense as a distinguishing factor? What I am saying is that if the tanking/utility/survivability/dps is the same between a paladin/shadowknight or monk/bruiser then why have two classes and not just make them one? Being evil I would think that a bruiser or sk should be more offensively inclined since most evil character tend to inflict some sort of havoc or destruction in others lives where the good side was always tough and resilient.Sorry for getting off topic. Just my feelings for the classes as of late.

Tanino

06-16-2008, 04:04 PM

I think one of the things that keeps on popping up, is that we are either an off tank or dps because we can't tank... yet we are a tank class.Yes we can do all of the instances without a problem.... well never tried Maidens personally but Chelsith, COA, Vaults, and Chardok are not all that difficult. As soon as it changes to something in the epic territory that is a named...we get hammered. I know I am not speced with raid gear, but it sure ain't fun to get killed for doing an intercede with full health. Maybe throw in a twist to the whole thing and keep our physical mitigation the same but drastically up all our non-melee resists to where it is superior to that of other tanks? Instead of the common situation of saying.... ok tank for this is Guard, Guard, Guard, Guard, Guard.... well you get the idea. Maybe add the additional resists within our defensive stance?I am just trying to think of different possibilites.

Aonach

06-16-2008, 04:29 PM

I think we need to stop talking about bruisers in groups. There is nothing wrong with bruisers in groups. We own the place as DPS and tanks. Bruisers problems are all raid specific. We suck in raids. No question about it. We have no place.

Aull

06-16-2008, 04:50 PM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think we need to stop talking about bruisers in groups. There is nothing wrong with bruisers in groups. We own the place as DPS and tanks. Bruisers problems are all raid specific. We suck in raids. No question about it. We have no place.</blockquote>Agreed. With the attention aa's, hard hits, rescue, and drag bruiserS have no trouble getting aggro and holding it single target. We do a great job tanking instances and everyday norrath mobs. I am in very much agreement with the all bruiser problems are all raid specific and we have no place. The 20% effectiveness to taunt and detaunts on bruising cry isn't a bad thing at all just not that noticable to surrounding members in the group/raid.

Novusod

06-16-2008, 05:39 PM

Agreed we should stop talking about heroic content. Even Maidens is no problem tanking on a bruiser. The difference between the hardest heroic mob and the weaked epic mob is huge. I have been one shotted even by a Dominus. Bruisers are not DPS. Anytime we start to show up on the parses the community as whole starts calling for Bruiser nerfs. We are not allowed to dps because that is a done deal and a dead argument. Bruiser don't have to be the best tank but they should be able to get the job done and not just go splat. If we can get core ability fixed then we can talk about how we can earn our place on a raid with utility and decent dps.

Aonach

06-16-2008, 06:06 PM

I totally disagree with that. In T7 we could tank some, we were asked to tank on occasion. In T8 we / I am just about never asked to tank. I don't know any top guild bruisers who are asked to be tanks in raid content, except for sisters and P'Tasa.I am however constantly whined at for my DPS. Like I mentioned earlier, I have slipped down the ZW dps list from 5-7 to around 12 and lower. I can't possibly throw any more into DPSing but unless I'm in a leet group it just doesn't happen. We need a way to be able to self buff and be able to put out some raid wide DPS becasue we are never going to be asked to tank and we are never going to get a decent group because all the scouts are going to get that.If they made our raid wide buff DPS again instead of the silly +CA buff and if they gave us some sort of group buff that would enable us to not be placed in the crappy "fat kid" group all the time then it would go a long way to making us raid viable. As it currently stands I could be there or not be there and the only thing the raid would miss is the occasional FD/rez and even FD/rez can be done by anyone with a tinkered item now.If I wasn't a bruiser I wouldn't give a bruiser a raid spot, not in the shape we are in.

Aull

06-16-2008, 07:24 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Agreed we should stop talking about heroic content. Even Maidens is no problem tanking on a bruiser. The difference between the hardest heroic mob and the weaked epic mob is huge. I have been one shotted even by a Dominus. Bruisers are not DPS. Anytime we start to show up on the parses the community as whole starts calling for Bruiser nerfs. We are not allowed to dps because that is a done deal and a dead argument. Bruiser don't have to be the best tank but they should be able to get the job done and not just go splat. If we can get core ability fixed then we can talk about how we can earn our place on a raid with utility and decent dps. </blockquote>I also agree with the statement in red here. However I am seeing guardians, zerkers, and monks doing some flat out nice zone wides and noone is really mad or upset. I have seen on occasion and not every fight that the zerker is number one or two on the parse in front of all the true dps classes. I just feel that most bruisers that do get to raid are being put into the bad buff groups more often than most other classes.I am not sure but I would like to see my bruiser be able to self buff his auto attack (and others) so that he isn't so dependant on others just to get some decent raid dps going. Just having the dps mod to raid was nice, but bruisers should also have a self buff dps mod.I find it disturbing that monks can hasten their auto attack to 106-112 points (correct me if I am wrong on that) self buffed, but a bruiser cannot even self buff their dps to say 80 points?

Aonach

06-17-2008, 03:56 AM

Yep, we suck when we don't have buffs. If we have to self buff on raids our DPS sinks down to around the same as the healers on the raid. To the raid leader it looks like we are either slacking, don't know our class or - this one is true - our class sucks for raid content.

Aull

06-17-2008, 09:21 AM

I know we are needing some raid tanking concerns tweaked so that we do not get one shotted by raid epics so we could be viable (not the best) for our raid. Dps wise we could see the proc from the manhandle line changed to a direct damage only instead of an approx 560 taunt/133-218 damage. Maybe in the damage area of 500 at the adept III to 600 at the 70-80 master lvl. Manhandle does seem to proc and would be a more reliable source than our offensive stance proc engulf. Engulf to me just isn't contributing enough auto attack dps enhancement to call it worth while. Correct me if I am wrong but monks combat arts do not hit as hard as bruisers? Monks combat arts do refresh quicker than bruisers combat arts? When monks have no combat arts to use they still can rely on a strong auto attack till combat arts refresh? When bruisers have no combat arts to use they rely on ?????? That to me is where the bruisers are loosing out is auto attack enhancement.Now if manhandle was changed from the taunt/small direct damage to a straight up decent direct damage without taunt, then offensive stance could drop the engulf proc and go to a straight up +50 dps mod at master lvl. +50 to dps mod would be consistant for a bruiser similar to a monks haste. Also add +35 dps mod at master lvl to our bruising cry for our raid members and that would help aim bruisers in the right direction. This way a bruiser could be modifing his/her dps mods to around 85 points but it would be no where near the high haste lvls that a monk gets.Just my thoughts on enhancing bruiser dps.Thanks

Tanino

06-17-2008, 12:57 PM

Could add a damage proc to shiftiness. Currently it's just a detaunt and it would be nice if there was a damage aspect to it. Make it kind of like our epic... if you are are playing a dps role then you dps higher, if you are a tank role then you generate more aggro.

Aull

06-17-2008, 01:08 PM

That would be a great addition to shiftiness.

Aonach

06-17-2008, 03:26 PM

Shiftiness is another pointless CA we have. If you need shiftiness on a raid then your MT really sucks.

Tanino

06-17-2008, 07:48 PM

Just have too say woot! on another useless GU that does not address a single brawler issue. Hmm wait maybe they nerfed something else for us.... we can only hope!So Aonach how would you like the bruiser to generate more dps? Just make it where regardless of buff, stance, or anything that we just make more dps? Just curious on how you would do it you had the choice. I went the route of suggesting modifications to existing items we already have to make things more pronounced whether we are doing a dps or a tank role, but that may not be the simplest way of fixing something..... like they will fix something anyway. Cough Cough.

Aull

06-17-2008, 10:38 PM

If there are ever changes to the bruiser class I hope that we do get a modification to our auto attack either by what I have suggested previously or even making our offensive stance just have a better proc rating like 3.0 times per min instead of 2.0 times per min. I think that the +dps mod to our bruising cry line would be beneficial as well. Maybe an ability that would make us better to group with. The one thing I do not want bruisers to become are buff bots. Tanking issues need to be addressed for those of us who get to make raids. I am not saying that bruisers need to tank better than any plate but like what Novusod said "bruisers don't have to be the best tank but they should be able to get the job done and not just go splat! That was very well stated by the way Novusod.I know this has been said before but if tanking issues cannot be resolved raid wise without making brawlers overpowered then I feel we should be moved out of fighter dps standards and have scout dps standards. Just not sure where bruisers will end up.

Aonach

06-18-2008, 04:29 AM

I've already made a suggestion as to what can be done. I suggested that SoE "re-fix" our raid wide buff to be DPS again instead of +CA. I also suggested that SoE give us something that will buff our groups to make the raid leader consider putting us in a group where we will also receive buffs. Currently we get flung in the "fat kid" group with the pallies and the spare necro.When I get a group that buffs me, my DPS is up there with zerkers and beating guardians. I can't really expect SoE to give me much more than that and to be honest I really don't want more than that but in order to get there I need to be in a good group.I really don't think SoE are going to give us a method of self buffing our DPS further because in the group/instance game we already rock so we need to be able bring something to both raid and groups in raids that will make the raid leader think twice about where he puts us. However i would add that zerks seem to be able to self buff to a way better standard than us and they also rock in the group side of the game.I think the DPS suggestion in the initial post is a step in the right direction. I will happily take a constant version of a zerkers Juggernaut, no problem as long as I can switch it off <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />

Aull

06-18-2008, 09:24 AM

Well I agree with your statement Anonach "When I get a group that buffs me, my DPS is up there with zerkers and beating guardians. I can't really expect SoE to give me much more than that and to be honest I really don't want more than that but in order to get there I need to be in a good group." Zerkers can throw down a dps stompin like no other plate tank or fighter for the most part and so can a good monk. What is so cool about those class to me is they do not require but what two melee buffing classes and they are wicked dpsing machines for fighters. Brusiers (sk's and paladins too) need three or four melee buff classes so that they can get those stats up high enough to give good dps.Oh well I feel i am starting to ramble. I am off.

Pnaxx

06-18-2008, 10:37 AM

No plate tank should be any where near us in parses period! That right there shows there is a problem. As leather wearing tanks, we sacrifice for DPS, thats why we picked the class. And we are offensive side of the Brawler coin, so we should be out dpsing all Monks as well....as well as adding more dps to the raid than Monks. Monks are the definsive side of the coin and should be offering more buffs in line with that. To think the Monks add to DOS through their haste is beyond me. That is clearly what we should be adding. makes 0.00 sense. Like Zerkers add offensive buffs, we should too. Zerkers are the offensive side of the Guard/Zerker coin. That needs to be our focus.

Aull

06-18-2008, 01:32 PM

<cite>Pnaxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>No plate tank should be any where near us in parses period! That right there shows there is a problem. As leather wearing tanks, we sacrifice for DPS, thats why we picked the class. And we are offensive side of the Brawler coin, so we should be out dpsing all Monks as well....as well as adding more dps to the raid than Monks. Monks are the definsive side of the coin and should be offering more buffs in line with that. To think the Monks add to DOS through their haste is beyond me. That is clearly what we should be adding. makes 0.00 sense. Like Zerkers add offensive buffs, we should too. Zerkers are the offensive side of the Guard/Zerker coin. That needs to be our focus.</blockquote>I agree Pnaxx. With not having the ability to tank as well as the plates brusiers should be at least dishing out considerably better dps to make up for the dispairity.I have read some info that "bruisers are to use a quick offensive before a defense". I read that from the eq2 official role playing game book. Now I know that isn't the actual eq2 mmo game but still it leads me to believe that bruisers should be more offensively inclined to their counterpart. It also mentions that bruisers inflict massive damage while debuffing the mobs ability to fight back (paraphrasing that). Debuffs are something that I do not see a bruiser really having much of in the game.Anyways I just personally feel that bruisers again are not bruising the way the should according to what I read in lore.

Novusod

06-18-2008, 05:17 PM

Mechanically some of our dps is built into our taunts such as Manhandle. So when I am in a dps role and I am using shiftyness instead of manhandle my dps is actually lower in the dps role than it is when I am trying to stay high on the hate list. Only tank classes have dps/taunt combos. The bruiser is not a dps class by design for we cannot lower our hate and max dps at the same time like the real dps classes can. Fix our tanking and will fix some of our dps problems.As for the "Fat kid" group I see no reason why bruisers have to be forced to rely on others to get our dps. If we are good utility class we could focus on whipping the "Fat kid" group into shape. A group wide KO combo would do that nicely. It would make the bruiser a bit into a mini dirge. Our dps would increase by zero but our contribution dps for the over all parse would be much more desirable.

Aonach

06-18-2008, 05:51 PM

Dont post when you are drunk =)