Do you really want to know what it takes to get developers to make changes?

[sirmorte]

<p>Do you really, REALLY want to know when developers make changes? Here is your answer:</p><p>When enough people stop playing their Shadowknights so that Shadowknights become relatively rare, the developers will make changes. As of now, every major guild has enough Shadowknights.</p><p> Thus, PLEASE stop playing your Shadowknights.</p><p>Sirmorte</p><p>Level 63 SK, </p><p>Taunting Fate, Permafrost</p>

[Beldin_]

<p>If too many play SKs they think : oh .. so many play them, they must be great.</p><p>I nobody plays them they think : nobody plays them .. why the heck should we care about that class <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Mr. Dawki]

<p>There was already a list of top end guilds that do not have SKs in thier roster.</p><p>I do belive there are still some servers yet to dico the SK mythical</p><p>Unrest has 2 mythicals, both are alts, one is mine, and he only gets used for pwr lvling alts that will get more use out of them.</p>

[Aull]

<p>I have an sk but he isn't high enough to raid yet so I can't comment on the raiding sk's problems. I don't think that boycotting play time on sk's is gonna work nor do i feel that keep on playing them is either. I would like to be able to give better advise but unfortunately I can't. I know we are all very passionate about the classes we play and we should be. The best thing I can say is do not flame, blame, or pass out criticizm so vainly about devs cause it will not help this current situation. Trying to cater to each customers individual needs or thoughts of a class has to be an enormous task. Where to start and where to stop.</p><p>All of you have done your absolute best at giving opinions what needs to be done with the sk class. I hate even hearing that some of who I think are top knowledge sk's have or will be leaving the game. I think every time an expansion comes out some classes become better while other classes stay the same while others just become staginate. I feel that soe knows that problems are within each class. I do wish that we could hear from our developers in a monthly "state of the class" report or quarterly "state of the class" report. Just something would be nice to see. I would really enjoy just hearing the personal pure logic non-bias opinion of a developer about a class or a class compaired to its counterpart. </p>

[Mr. Dawki]

<p>What bugs me is this. SOE is holding this huge "Live the legacy" bash, "come back to us and play our game" Now what is a returning player to think when he comes back only to find, the exact same problems that drove him from the game are still here?</p><p>If a returning customer were to take a look in the inquisitor, shadowknight, fury forums, they would be driven away instantly because the devs are putting forth more effort to come out with promotions and content rather than fixing the broken classes that are the support for the game itself. Its like adding a new sterio system to your car, but the engine is shot. </p><p>I understand that everything will never be perfect, but when some guilds outright refuse to take a class in just because there is nothing that they can find for that class to do, you have a problem. Case in point, my own guild has no SK or inquis in their ranks, if you were to go look at our recruitment list, SK and inquis are both closed. Templar owns an inquis in every way, and any tank beats a SK atm.</p>

[Norrsken]

<cite>Mr. Dawkins wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What bugs me is this. SOE is holding this huge "Live the legacy" bash, "come back to us and play our game" Now what is a returning player to think when he comes back only to find, the exact same problems that drove him from the game are still here?</p><p>If a returning customer were to take a look in the inquisitor, shadowknight, fury forums, they would be driven away instantly because the devs are putting forth more effort to come out with promotions and content rather than fixing the broken classes that are the support for the game itself. Its like adding a new sterio system to your car, but the engine is shot. </p><p>I understand that everything will never be perfect, but when some guilds outright refuse to take a class in just because there is nothing that they can find for that class to do, you have a problem. Case in point, my own guild has no SK or inquis in their ranks, if you were to go look at our recruitment list, SK and inquis are both closed. Templar owns an inquis in every way, and any tank beats a SK atm.</p></blockquote>Im actually perfectly happy with my inquisitor. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Though, on my server and faction, templars cant come.

[Tiberuis]

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have an sk but he isn't high enough to raid yet so I can't comment on the raiding sk's problems. I don't think that boycotting play time on sk's is gonna work nor do i feel that keep on playing them is either. I would like to be able to give better advise but unfortunately I can't. I know we are all very passionate about the classes we play and we should be. The best thing I can say is do not flame, blame, or pass out criticizm so vainly about devs cause it will not help this current situation. Trying to cater to each customers individual needs or thoughts of a class has to be an enormous task. Where to start and where to stop.</p><p>All of you have done your absolute best at giving opinions what needs to be done with the sk class. I hate even hearing that some of who I think are top knowledge sk's have or will be leaving the game. I think every time an expansion comes out some classes become better while other classes stay the same while others just become staginate. I feel that soe knows that problems are within each class. I do wish that we could hear from our developers in a monthly "state of the class" report or quarterly "state of the class" report. Just something would be nice to see. I would really enjoy just hearing the personal pure logic non-bias opinion of a developer about a class or a class compaired to its counterpart. </p></blockquote><p>I love your idea of a "state of the class" quarterly report.  Fantastic!</p><p>I agree that blaming, flaming, and criticizing the Devs is not helpful.  But, clearly, this is only happening due to the Devs completely ignoring the SK class forums, and refusing to comment on the state of the the SK class.  There is no excuse for completely ignoring the concerns of your customers.</p><p>It is dead obvious that the SK is the most gimped raid class in the game, and dead last amoungst plate tanks as a whole.</p><p>Many SK players are simply frustrated at being ignored for such a long period of time.   The frustration is growing as time continues to pass.  </p><p>Can you blame them?</p>

[Aull]

<p>What I do not wish to see but it still may happen is loosing the wealth of information of these high end sk's. I know that is very selfish of me but hey in times past reading the sk forums helped me out with my sk and knowing other classes as well.</p><p>Again it would be very nice just to hear that sk's (or any other class) are currently having a performance evaluation test and we shall give the results once this testing is complete and accurate. Just a simple statement similar to that from a dev or moderator would be a help.</p><p>What I think will happen is people will start flaming any attempt made by a dev or moderator to communicate with us. I would hope that if a dev ever does try to give an explaination that people will be respectful to them and not try to chop their heads off.</p><p>I have been using the /feedback lately to give my opinions to SOE. Please if you can do this.</p>

[Giral]

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What I do not wish to see but it still may happen is loosing the wealth of information of these high end sk's. I know that is very selfish of me but hey in times past reading the sk forums helped me out with my sk and knowing other classes as well.</p><p>Again it would be very nice just to hear that sk's (or any other class) are currently having a performance evaluation test and we shall give the results once this testing is complete and accurate. Just a simple statement similar to that from a dev or moderator would be a help.</p><p>What I think will happen is people will start flaming any attempt made by a dev or moderator to communicate with us. I would hope that if a dev ever does try to give an explaination that people will be respectful to them and not try to chop their heads off.</p><p>I have been using the /feedback lately to give my opinions to SOE. Please if you can do this.</p></blockquote><p>No worries about us flaming a dev , as we have Never had a Back and forth discussion with a Dev in the Shadowknight forums Ever!  so it would just be Us talking to ourselves again anyway , even if we flamed away lol : P </p><p>besides developers are grown people ( and as witnessed on Eq2flames forums they are quite capable of handling a Flame and continuing a discussion Just not with or about SK's ) amd we dont have to baby them or treat em like there special,     they get the same respect Sk's Get <--if they dont Earn it they dont deserve it!</p>

[Beldin_]

<p>I think they will "sit it out" until the next expansion. A dev has already stated that there will be again more AoE encounters, so that may hopefully make the SK again a good group-tank, and i think the devs care just as much about min-maxing raiding-guilds then i do. All i know is the the top guild on our server has actual an SK, not as MT, but as whatever.</p><p>Btw.: SKs are not the only "not needed" classes, go ask Bruiser, Rangers, Monks and even Wardens, they all cry because noone wants them in their uber-raidguild.</p><p>Ok .. flame on <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Aull]

<p>Was just thinking about that quarterly "state of the class" report and thought what about a monthly or quarterly poll that is given to each class section of the forums. A person takes a monthly/quarterly poll that asks important questions concerning the class. This poll can only be taken once per person per month/quarter but will reset at the first of every month/quarter for any new/fresh concerns. It to me would provide feedback to the men and women that evaluate the classes in eq2.</p><p>Just an example and not an actual poll.</p><p>How wouild you rate the overall shadowknight tanking ability: __ excellent  __ good  __ poor</p><p>How would you rate the crusader alternate achievement abilities: __excellent  __good  __poor</p><p>How would you rate the shadowknight alternate achievement abilities:  __excellent  __good  __poor</p><p>Explain in your words what changes or concerns you feel would help the shadowknight class.</p><p>__________________________________________________ _______________________________</p><p>__________________________________________________ _______________________________</p><p>__________________________________________________ _______________________________</p><p>Again that is just an idea for each class to have a monthly or quarterly poll that would provide customer service some feedback for each individual class. </p><p>Thanks again for listening to my thoughts</p>

[Tiberuis]

<cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think they will "sit it out" until the next expansion. A dev has already stated that there will be again more AoE encounters, so that may hopefully make the SK again a good group-tank, and i think the devs care just as much about min-maxing raiding-guilds then i do. All i know is the the top guild on our server has actual an SK, not as MT, but as whatever.</p><p>Btw.: SKs are not the only "not needed" classes, go ask Bruiser, Rangers, Monks and even Wardens, they all cry because noone wants them in their uber-raidguild.</p><p>Ok .. flame on <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p>I agree with you, I do not believe the Devs will fix the SK class.</p><p>Let's understand that Raid Utility is not the only issue here.  The core issues are about class balance.  </p><p>To clarify the current SK state in the game vs. the other Plate Tank classes for you :</p><p>1) SK's are last in Mitigation.  </p><p>2) SK's are last in Avoidance.</p><p>3) SK's are last in Aggro ability.</p><p>4) SK's are last in MT and OT Raid ability.</p><p>5) SK's are second last in DPS.  </p><p>(Yes, Guardians do WAY, WAY, WAY more DPS than an SK in ROK content.  No, your eyes are not deceiving you, and this is not a typo.  The state of the SK class DPS is a travesty).</p><p>Did I leave anything out?</p>

[Beldin_]

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>5) SK's are second last in DPS.  </p><p>(Yes, Guardians do WAY, WAY, WAY more DPS than an SK in ROK content.  No, your eyes are not deceiving you, and this is not a typo.  The state of the SK class DPS is a travesty).</p><p>Did I leave anything out?</p></blockquote><p>That was however not the fact in T7 with multi-mob encounters. But i've seen the progression on my SK, i could do 1200 dps with level 70 in the Nest, and with 80 i did 1100 in CoA 1300 after i got Shortsword of Nathasar , while all DD-classes went from 1200 at 70 to 2000+ now.</p><p>My Bruiser can tank CoA while doing 1800 and needs half the healing <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[DMIstar]

<cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think they will "sit it out" until the next expansion. A dev has already stated that there will be again more AoE encounters, so that may hopefully make the SK again a good group-tank, and i think the devs care just as much about min-maxing raiding-guilds then i do. All i know is the the top guild on our server has actual an SK, not as MT, but as whatever.</p><p>Btw.: SKs are not the only "not needed" classes, go ask Bruiser, Rangers, Monks and even Wardens, they all cry because noone wants them in their uber-raidguild.</p><p>Ok .. flame on <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>If lack of multi encounters was this class's only problem, this forum would be a much happier place right now... Them "Sitting" This thing out, will only Dwindle and deteriate this forum even more, for a percieved solution, that they already helped killed to come about. Our DPS is low, We have no fast actcing AoE spells, all of them however are Long cast, slow recast type, which is 3 ... Pestilance if lucky, but realy its not a real AoE at all. The clutch was the Trample AA they added. Which everybody and their grandmother ditched cause the devs said so for in raids in RoK... But Multi Encounters still don't fix..Lack of itemizationLack of True Lifetaps (They been screwing us on this for a long time now)Lack of DPSLack of Aggro controlLack of Direction for this class ...Lack of Tankability

[Beldin_]

<cite>Istar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think they will "sit it out" until the next expansion. A dev has already stated that there will be again more AoE encounters, so that may hopefully make the SK again a good group-tank, and i think the devs care just as much about min-maxing raiding-guilds then i do. All i know is the the top guild on our server has actual an SK, not as MT, but as whatever.</p><p>Btw.: SKs are not the only "not needed" classes, go ask Bruiser, Rangers, Monks and even Wardens, they all cry because noone wants them in their uber-raidguild.</p><p>Ok .. flame on <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>If lack of multi encounters was this class's only problem, this forum would be a much happier place right now... Them "Sitting" This thing out, will only Dwindle and deteriate this forum even more, for a percieved solution, that they already helped killed to come about. Our DPS is low, We have no fast actcing AoE spells, all of them however are Long cast, slow recast type, which is 3 ... Pestilance if lucky, but realy its not a real AoE at all. The clutch was the Trample AA they added. Which everybody and their grandmother ditched cause the devs said so for in raids in RoK... But Multi Encounters still don't fix..Lack of itemizationLack of True Lifetaps (They been screwing us on this for a long time now)Lack of DPSLack of Aggro controlLack of Direction for this class ...Lack of Tankability </blockquote><p>No other class has so much AoEs with so fast recast then SKs. Pestilence .. i loved that spell in T7 .. in T8 its worthless now. DPS-wise in T7 in Kaladim or Nest i could be on par with wizards and swashys .. in T8 even Dirges could beat me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Also with multi-encounters i never had aggro problems, even adds you could bind simply with AoEs, and if maybe a Brig or Bruiser stole aggro on your main-target, it was not really a problem.</p>

[DMIstar]

<cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Istar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think they will "sit it out" until the next expansion. A dev has already stated that there will be again more AoE encounters, so that may hopefully make the SK again a good group-tank, and i think the devs care just as much about min-maxing raiding-guilds then i do. All i know is the the top guild on our server has actual an SK, not as MT, but as whatever.</p><p>Btw.: SKs are not the only "not needed" classes, go ask Bruiser, Rangers, Monks and even Wardens, they all cry because noone wants them in their uber-raidguild.</p><p>Ok .. flame on <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>If lack of multi encounters was this class's only problem, this forum would be a much happier place right now... Them "Sitting" This thing out, will only Dwindle and deteriate this forum even more, for a percieved solution, that they already helped killed to come about. Our DPS is low, We have no fast actcing AoE spells, all of them however are Long cast, slow recast type, which is 3 ... Pestilance if lucky, but realy its not a real AoE at all. The clutch was the Trample AA they added. Which everybody and their grandmother ditched cause the devs said so for in raids in RoK... But Multi Encounters still don't fix..Lack of itemizationLack of True Lifetaps (They been screwing us on this for a long time now)Lack of DPSLack of Aggro controlLack of Direction for this class ...Lack of Tankability </blockquote><p><b>No other class has so much AoEs with so fast recast then SKs</b>. Pestilence .. i loved that spell in T7 .. in T8 its worthless now. DPS-wise in T7 in Kaladim or Nest i could be on par with wizards and swashys .. in T8 even Dirges could beat me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" />" /></p><p>Also with multi-encounters i never had aggro problems, even adds you could bind simply with AoEs, and if maybe a Brig or Bruiser stole aggro on your main-target, it was not really a problem.</p></blockquote>Got the wrong class in that sentance ;P ... Doom rays, I took out of my Comparisons with The guards on Damage Per Second... Why? Cause it would Inflate the SK's Recast Timer up.. and I wanted a more real comparison .. So Doom rays and HT where nulled, To give some slac on the Devs side... Doom rays is 110sec Recast The only Thing that beat it in high recast is HT at 819sec.So lets now bring SK's AoEs down to three ...Tap arteries: at 54.5secs Crimson Circle: 27.3  Painful Aura: 27.3  I find it kinda Hard to believe We are the fastest due to Two Spells at a Sub par Refresh rate.. Normal Single Targets range from 9.1-18.2secs  ALot of our AoE Encounter Aggro problems where Solved with the DM Taunt Added to it. Before that, there was just as many complaints on this board ;/..

[Beldin_]

<p>Tap can be brought down to 39 seconds i think. Also there is Hammer ground, if you've speced STA, and Pestilence for me was at least always a "pseudo-AoE" <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And if you look at other classes they mostly have their AoEs on something like 60-90s timers. And the faster melee-aoes are mostly total crappy, something like 300-500 damage or whatever.</p><p>I always noticed the difference the most when i did Poets Palace with other characters in the rooms with the scarab ring-events. As SK you always had the next AoE up when the next group popped up, with other classes it was much worse to grab aggro that fast there.</p>

[sirmorte]

I'll say this agian. Stop whining. Be proactive and STOP playing your shadowknight! If enough people do this and WRITE LETTERS to SONY, SONY will fix the the class.  I can't emphasize this enough.

[Nakash]

<cite>sirmorte wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll say this agian. Stop whining. Be proactive and STOP playing your shadowknight! If enough people do this and WRITE LETTERS to SONY, SONY will fix the the class.  I can't emphasize this enough.</blockquote><p>That will have absolute no effekt. </p><p>SK that exist are guessed 85% Alts and max 15% Main Chars.</p><p>SOE cant see this by number as they have seen it on the coercers dor that reason.</p><p>Try it make a poll and ask whos main char it is or even better whos raid main char it is, cause there is it where the trouble is.</p>

[XFnarX]

From a class that was as bad if not worse off than SKs only a month ago this is what I suggest. Two things will make SoE devs react to situations faster than they have pre-planned.1) If there's a HUGE exile of betrayals and deletions of SKs (Kinda like the Coercer exile to Illus that's been going on since lat T7.)2) If anyone that plays and SK speaks with a dev directly or to a friend of a dev and basically plants little "hey you should look into this" in their ears. Another way is to attend Fan Fair and make yourself heard./bug, /feedback and /petition NEVER get results unless they are minor things a guide / lower level GM can handle. I've been /bugging 3 know and repeatable issues I am aware of, one for almost 4 months now and have yet to even get a reply about them. Make yourself heard and something will happen eventually... just don't get all emo about it. =p

[Margen]

<cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>sirmorte wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll say this agian. Stop whining. Be proactive and STOP playing your shadowknight! If enough people do this and WRITE LETTERS to SONY, SONY will fix the the class.  I can't emphasize this enough.</blockquote><p>That will have absolute no effekt. </p><p>SK that exist are guessed 85% Alts and max 15% Main Chars.</p><p>SOE cant see this by number as they have seen it on the coercers dor that reason.</p><p>Try it make a poll and ask whos main char it is or even better whos raid main char it is, cause there is it where the trouble is.</p></blockquote><p>That is part of the problem, alot of the players that still play and started out with Sk can't really condsider them their mains any more.</p><p>I am one of those, Technically my Swashy is considered my "main" in my Guild.  I started out as a SK and raided with him thru tier 7, but saw the writting on the wall in EOF.  ROK just cemented the issue with what they have done to the class, or maybe not done would be a better way of putting it.</p><p>I would love to play my Shadow Knight in raids, he still is my favorite character.  But 95pct of the time they want my Swashy vs Blackoath and to be blunt I can't blame them.  A swashy does excellent dps and has very good utility (debuffs and advance warning) vs a Shadow Knight with poor tanking machanics, poor agro abilities, limited utility and subpar dps.  Lets be honest, there is no reason to bring a SK on a raid, heck we ain't wowing them in groups either.  Yes we can do the job, but the other plate tanks can do it better.</p><p>I hope they do something with SK, I would love to again make them a viable raiding class and a stronger tank, just right now we aint' even close to where we should be.</p>