Wizards, a case of learned helplessness? [Archive]

mcavellero

06-05-2008, 12:39 AM

You tie a dog up to a pole...a few days he moves around and tries to get free. After a few months he stops trying...In all reality, wizards dps sucks... Just being honest and blunt. The fact that SoE presented yet another mage nerf "-wis -spell resists" via GU 43 is yet another sign that they don't care about us and perhaps its because of our voices. We are not loud, clear, strong enough... No changes will come if it does not start with our voices. Aside from the forum trolls(scouts that like their dps throne) I blame wizards for not caring to give a strong clear message.I am very disappointed in SoE too because scouts get hate transfers 15-24%(our 3%), chain armor(cloth for us), instant case deaggros( we have casting timers) and blow us to bits on the parse. All that wizards ask (the ones who notice/care about the dps issues) is that we are able to compete...not own, but compete. We don't care that 1)You give scouts chain armor 2)You give scouts instant deaggros (we have casting speeds) 3) You give assa/wash significantly transfers(15-24%) and rangers -20%hate gain 4) We have to rely on a coercer(debate buff) *Pally for amends * Trouby and *Illus(Time Compression) to even get 2-3k behind the assassins. -Is it fair? No........... But what's really a slap in the face is that we can't top the parse every once in a while(not always...once in a while). I know prob a huuuuuuuuuuuuge portion of devs play scouts which is fine but for those of us who like to play sorcs it's not balanced... And any forum trolls....don't say our class is fine because it's NOT. Ive played this class ince eq2 beta. I know it inside and out, experiemented with casting orders, researched/tested AAs...there's nothing but perhaps VP gear(because Im fabled out) that can help my dps.... I also have a fury, defiler, necro, assa, templar, illus.....I have no complaints about any of these classes....but wizards come on devs...PLEASE give us a chance to compete for that top spot once in awhile. If not change our definition because we are not dps and it's embarassing to not be able to meet that role that you define us with.

daray

06-05-2008, 07:56 AM

It is not *as bad* as you make it out to be, but yes there is a discrepency in the wake of GU43 and GU44 that hasn't been addressed, and probably won't be.This is a copy and paste of a post I made elsewhere (not going to rewrite it).___________________________________________Thi s isn't really an issue of sorcerers being T2 dps, but a wider issue that is affecting all mages - with the result being a more than noticeable dps discrepency between mages and their melee counterparts (especially on the shorter duration fights). I am obviously refering to the changes to all ROK epic x4 WIS and spell mitigation values in GU43 (to "balance" them against melee dps on the higher con encounters), and then the subsequent changes/fix to melee hit rates in GU44 (without compensating spell-based damage). Now mages are in a position where they see half of their spells cast in the opening 10-15s outright resisted even at capped disruption (until the raid can stack sufficient debuffs). For classes that need to be landing spells from the outset to reach anywhere near their damage potential, this is obviously going to be a big problem, and is only made worse now that the majority of trash fights for the better guilds only last 20-30 seconds. These outright resists can be somewhat mitigated with certain buffs (such as Illuminate), but it is not a luxury that every mage in every raid guild will have 100% of the time. Quoting "resist rates" is only half of the issue anyway. The equally important result of the increased WIS and spell mitigations on epic x4s is the lower average damage output of your damage spells when they do land - and unless you compared parses from pre-GU43 to post-GU43, it is not something that many would have probably considered. Another factor that again not many would have necessarily noticed, is how hit rates (and damage) scale across differing level con ranges for both melee and spell based damage. Prior to GU43, mages were in a position where they had an obvious edge against higher level con encounters - im sure everyone remembers the outcry from the community regarding spell/melee hit rates in VP. So before GU43 mages had the better damage output on orange con encounters and the balance between melee and spell-based damage was somewhat close to balanced on yellow-con encounters. Now something that I do not recall being discussed, is how melee-based damage had a rather obvious edge on white, blue and green con encounters - since they had room for their hitrate and dps to grow, and spell hitrates were already sitting at 100% on yellow/orange con encounters (so mages never saw a huge dps output difference when fighting varying con levels of encounters). And before someone points out the obvious here - no, spell and melee hit rates were never originally balanced around being equal. Now, after GU43 and 44, melee-based damage has an edge over spell-based damage on orange con encounters, and this disparity only grows as you drop down the level con ranges. And this is best highlighted by the trash encounters in Shard of Hate (white/low yellow con) - where mages can't even come close to competing with melee dps (disclaimer: assuming equal skill and gear off course), even where the mage sits in an ideal group for his or her class. The only reason that assassins are mentioned as much as they are in this thread, is because they have an additional advantage (and no, the advantage is not because Aeralik plays one). Being that the majority of their damage is CA based, assassins have the ability to offload a large amount of damage in a short space of time. Now that a lot of guilds have their trash kill times down to 20-30 seconds each, you will see the better assassins averaging 9-10k parses, with spikes of 12-15k - and this will obviously reflect on the zonewide. On longer duration fights, the numbers do become closer (where assassin spike dps potential is somewhat negated by duration - and where there are sufficient magical debuffs sustained for the majority of the duration). Regardless, any assassin that loses to sorcerers on the zonewide (being that sorcerers are the highest mage dps), is either slacking, sucks, or is not as well geared.

mcavellero

06-05-2008, 07:13 PM

I did come off a bit annoyed and that's because it was after a raid where the assassin was doing 9k while I was hitting 3-4k ...brgands and swashs also pushed me down that list. Also our brusier(a fighter!!!) was hitting 5k?!?Regardless, aside from LU 43 and 44, do you, still feel that everything is balanced?Where's the offset(balance) to items below(we all know it's not dps...)?1) scouts chain armor 2) scouts instant deaggros (we have casting speeds) 3) You give assa/swash significantly transfers(15-24%) and rangers -20%hate gain 4) We have to rely on a coercer(debate buff) *Pally for amends * Trouby and *Illus(Time Compression) to even get 2-3k behind the assassins.

Fendaria

06-06-2008, 02:35 PM

<cite>mcavellero wrote:</cite><blockquote>Regardless, aside from LU 43 and 44, do you, still feel that everything is balanced?Where's the offset(balance) to items below(we all know it's not dps...)?1) scouts chain armor 2) scouts instant deaggros (we have casting speeds) 3) You give assa/swash significantly transfers(15-24%) and rangers -20%hate gain 4) We have to rely on a coercer(debate buff) *Pally for amends * Trouby and *Illus(Time Compression) to even get 2-3k behind the assassins.</blockquote> We get port? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Fendaria

Windowlicker

06-06-2008, 06:53 PM

Wizard and Warlock DPS has never been this low overall.

Jasuo

06-07-2008, 04:53 PM

<cite>mcavellero wrote:</cite> <blockquote> I also have a fury, defiler, NECRO, assa, templar, illus.....I have no complaints about any of these classes....but wizards come on devs...PLEASE give us a chance to compete for that top spot once in awhile. If not change our definition because we are not dps and it's embarassing to not be able to meet that role that you define us with.</blockquote>Wow, some people, I LOL'd at this part right here. All mages took the hit, but wizards most definitely aren't suffering like you say they are. L2P

Pathin Merrithay

06-11-2008, 02:17 PM

I want Daray to have my children. Seriously, sums up the issues perfectly.

Echgar

06-13-2008, 12:35 AM

<cite>Sciomar@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>mcavellero wrote:</cite> <blockquote> I also have a fury, defiler, NECRO, assa, templar, illus.....I have no complaints about any of these classes....but wizards come on devs...PLEASE give us a chance to compete for that top spot once in awhile. If not change our definition because we are not dps and it's embarassing to not be able to meet that role that you define us with.</blockquote>Wow, some people, I LOL'd at this part right here. All mages took the hit, but wizards most definitely aren't suffering like you say they are. L2P</blockquote>Let's be a bit more constructive please. Advice on different strategy, better equipment, and so on may be a perfectly acceptable response to give, but coming into a thread where there are clearly some strong emotions and posting a snarky "L2P" is the stuff flame wars develop from.You are welcome to disagree with other posters on the forums but please keep your comments on-topic, constructive, and courteous.

BiggiEQ2

06-13-2008, 03:00 AM

is this based soley on raiding? with orangecon epicx4s? how about run-of-the-mill T8 instances? is the gap so big? only wondering coz i very rarely raid (and when i have done, two wizzies topped the parse on two occassions regularly, admittedly it was a Pick up Raid, but still, i was impressed <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> a couple of assassins were fabled out too. i know for my assassin a LOT of my potential dps relies on the buffs i have and what group im in. is this so for wizzies or to a lesser degree? and if it is about spells landing, this may be a silly question, but someone mentioned capped disruption - is this from adornments and spell gear, or from the STA line? Can you fully cap disruption without going down the STA line? still, not like i'd want to sacrifice the spell crit rate for 8 points making sub/dis/ord better. i think i just suck at my assassin though, never parsed too high, with jousting and knockbacks and ae encounters, i struggle to get into the top 3 with a full hardcore concealment chain (again, never had a dirge/illu or anythign funky for buffs "there's your scout group, have a warden, go play") anyway, lvl 25 and loving my wizzy so far <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Teh_Person

06-13-2008, 03:45 AM

Well, in anything other than raids it doesn't matter in the slightest what class you play, every single mob is going down in under 30 seconds minus bosses, which may take up to a whole minute. So yeah, this discussion is mainly about raids, where different dps of classes gets a lot more noticable.

ailees

06-13-2008, 06:45 AM

Let's speak about RAIDS :Yesterday : raid in VP. Our casual guild is not very good, we are still trying to kill Druushk then do not compare with people who almost solo Trak ; our average DPS is around 50K, nothing to shout "waoo"...My aim is to compare with my fellow raiders, not with other raiders.I merged all trash fights.Troub in the group, happily.First half : Illu was not in our group.Second one : TC was put on a Warlock Assasin : 4752Brigand: 3418Swashbuckler: 3251Warlock 3093ME : 2993Maybe my casting order is not the best, maybe I can do much better, but in no way I can get 50% more, right ? With TC from start, I should be 2d or 3d - if I don't die from choker <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" /> (Hell, then I'll kill the healer)

Velislyth

07-12-2008, 08:11 AM

I offer this only as a consideration - don't wizards have a tradeoff by soloing better than assassins or rangers by far? I mean, the one thing that comes to mind to me for the 'what do we get to offset what these guys get' question is "Fast-casting/refreshing ranged root that turns into a snare when broken". I know this means squat on a raid, but you're not always raiding.

Skwor

07-12-2008, 02:46 PM

<cite>Velislyth wrote:</cite><blockquote>I offer this only as a consideration - don't wizards have a tradeoff by soloing better than assassins or rangers by far? I mean, the one thing that comes to mind to me for the 'what do we get to offset what these guys get' question is "Fast-casting/refreshing ranged root that turns into a snare when broken". I know this means squat on a raid, but you're not always raiding.</blockquote>The short answer is NO. Assassins/swashies/brigs have no problems soloing anything a wizzie can. best solo'r in the game is a Necro not a Wiz. For a bit of proof, before the snare/ stun nerf on D'veers the only class that was soloing him where scouts (swashies especially) Wizards could not solo D'veers or the shark. So this whole "better solo argument" is nothing but a red herring and completly false.Second SoE lists wizards as being "massive damage" SOE has not backed off this classification, as such, all we ask is the class live up to it's stated description. So again this solo / raid argument is apples to oranges and has no place here unless SoE decides to recassify subclasses as either raid , group, or solo specific which the refuse to do.

TuinalOfTheNexus

07-13-2008, 10:35 PM

<cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's be a bit more constructive please. Advice on different strategy, better equipment, and so on may be a perfectly acceptable response to give, but coming into a thread where there are clearly some strong emotions and posting a snarky "L2P" is the stuff flame wars develop from.You are welcome to disagree with other posters on the forums but please keep your comments on-topic, constructive, and courteous.</blockquote>You're kind of giving him an L2P yourself by suggesting '...different strategy, better equipment...' will result in him outparsing an equivalently geared and played Assassin.This simply isn't the case. Any high end raider could tell you this. The OP actually spells it out. I fail to see the drama or emotions in this thread (well, more than any other). It's a simple fact that tweaks to resist mechanics and melee hit rates have been done in a careless or biased fashion and the result is mage dps falling well behind melee dps.What results in the hostility from the playerbase is the relutance of developers to explain why an Assassin should be 2k+ ahead of Wizards on zonewide DPS, or worse still, the ignorance to suggest this isn't the case.

thajo

07-15-2008, 10:33 AM

I want to see an assassin solo the first 2 names out of VoES and all the trash. I'm pretty sure we have the upperhand on solo'ing and all I can imagine when people say we don't is that they have no idea how to solo with a wizard. Though i'd say these days coercer is the best solo'er. And I have heard that I must have assassins who suck when I say I keep up with them on zonewides. They have their spike fights, and I have my spike fights. Last good fight I did was a 7.1k on a 6 and a half min pull of Phara Dar. Assassins high hits with long recasts don't hold a candle to me dropping Bolt of Ice every 23 seconds for over 6 min. Also not to mention I got stuff like 3 Fissions or so off. Thus...OMG I hang just perfect or above an assassin on zonewides. If you have assassins 2k past your wizards in zonewides theres a red flag going up somewhere because that is not how it has to be, even at this point.

mcavellero

07-15-2008, 12:40 PM

wow I thought this thread was dead lol. Just an update, I have a 75 assassin now, I'm loving it. doing 2-3k (which is low but for this level man, it's great) in some group...without legendary gear and some A3 Spells and with only 99 AAs. This is pretty sad considering I play with some level 80 mages(mixed bunch) and they are decked out and I beat them sometimes. I can't imagine when I start to gear up and get my A3s. Sad thing is I like my wizard more...I wish I was able to do this type of DPS on him. -/As for soloing, I would say they are pretty much equal except on certain mobs, like the Shark in JWastes(saw an assassin solo him but I could not because my root was immune...he drops those nice mage shoulders too), where SoE made him immune to root BUT NOT to snare...go figure. Soloing is not hard for an assassin(been soloing a lot of the rok quests). So far I found two strats...one high dps, stun, high dps(mob drops so fast doesnt get a hit off) or two snare, ranged maybe some CAs, resnare, throw in short root at times too...it's really not that difficult.

thajo

07-15-2008, 01:45 PM

<cite>mcavellero wrote:</cite><blockquote>wow I thought this thread was dead lol. Just an update, I have a 75 assassin now, I'm loving it. doing 2-3k (which is low but for this level man, it's great) in some group...without legendary gear and some A3 Spells and with only 99 AAs. This is pretty sad considering I play with some level 80 mages(mixed bunch) and they are decked out and I beat them sometimes. I can't imagine when I start to gear up and get my A3s. Sad thing is I like my wizard more...I wish I was able to do this type of DPS on him. -/As for soloing, I would say they are pretty much equal except on certain mobs, like the Shark in JWastes(saw an assassin solo him but I could not because my root was immune...he drops those nice mage shoulders too), where SoE made him immune to root BUT NOT to snare...go figure. Soloing is not hard for an assassin(been soloing a lot of the rok quests). So far I found two strats...one high dps, stun, high dps(mob drops so fast doesnt get a hit off) or two snare, ranged maybe some CAs, resnare, throw in short root at times too...it's really not that difficult.</blockquote>1. Are the mages doing 2 - 3k? I parsed 3k and slightly higher zonewides near the end of eof, they shouldn't be that low with you :O2. The shark in JW was not immune to root upon RoK release. About a month after and once every server basically had Megalodon locked down by wizards, they slipped the little root immune effect on Megalodon. Same update they gave the general the ability to root his opponents to try and stop scouts from snare soloing the General.

mcavellero

07-16-2008, 04:13 AM

<cite>thajoka wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>mcavellero wrote:</cite><blockquote>wow I thought this thread was dead lol. Just an update, I have a 75 assassin now, I'm loving it. doing 2-3k (which is low but for this level man, it's great) in some group...without legendary gear and some A3 Spells and with only 99 AAs. This is pretty sad considering I play with some level 80 mages(mixed bunch) and they are decked out and I beat them sometimes. I can't imagine when I start to gear up and get my A3s. Sad thing is I like my wizard more...I wish I was able to do this type of DPS on him. -/As for soloing, I would say they are pretty much equal except on certain mobs, like the Shark in JWastes(saw an assassin solo him but I could not because my root was immune...he drops those nice mage shoulders too), where SoE made him immune to root BUT NOT to snare...go figure. Soloing is not hard for an assassin(been soloing a lot of the rok quests). So far I found two strats...one high dps, stun, high dps(mob drops so fast doesnt get a hit off) or two snare, ranged maybe some CAs, resnare, throw in short root at times too...it's really not that difficult.</blockquote>1. Are the mages doing 2 - 3k? I parsed 3k and slightly higher zonewides near the end of eof, they shouldn't be that low with you :O2. The shark in JW was not immune to root upon RoK release. About a month after and once every server basically had Megalodon locked down by wizards, they slipped the little root immune effect on Megalodon. Same update they gave the general the ability to root his opponents to try and stop scouts from snare soloing the General.</blockquote>Truth be told, your average wizard/warlock is not going to exceed 3k in stances due to 1) skill 2) gear 3) group setup. I have quite a few 80 alts (healers, scout and mages etc) and grouped with many mages....I rarely see a mage go over 3k because of the mentioned reasons. However my point is that my assassin has treasured geared, a mix of apprentice 2 to adept 3 spells and is parsing 2-3k at level 75 in CoA, VoEs, and Maidens clearly shows there's something wrong with the game mechanics/ class balance.

thajo

07-17-2008, 10:51 AM

erm, maybe we are talking about different instances. I thought you meant raid instances.

DerFunkBlaster

07-17-2008, 11:53 AM

How often is that casting speed proc up for you from the trixy cane Dakkota? Also, do you always have TC?

thajo

07-18-2008, 12:18 PM

<cite>DerFunkBlaster wrote:</cite><blockquote>How often is that casting speed proc up for you from the trixy cane Dakkota? Also, do you always have TC?</blockquote>I often do have TC for most fights. And the trixy cane one seems to proc plenty(with proc modifiers i've seen the proc go up to 4.2 - 4.6x). It is nice though because the Trixy procs can overwrite (and stack multiple effects as well as proc multiple effects off 1 single spell) so theres some fights where trixy cast proc will keep proc'ing before it dies down. Not to mentioned procs off 'any spell cast' so even hitting Ice Lash on the pull can proc cast speed.

DerFunkBlaster

07-18-2008, 07:26 PM

<cite>thajoka wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DerFunkBlaster wrote:</cite><blockquote>How often is that casting speed proc up for you from the trixy cane Dakkota? Also, do you always have TC?</blockquote>I often do have TC for most fights. And the trixy cane one seems to proc plenty(with proc modifiers i've seen the proc go up to 4.2 - 4.6x). It is nice though because the Trixy procs can overwrite (and stack multiple effects as well as proc multiple effects off 1 single spell) so theres some fights where trixy cast proc will keep proc'ing before it dies down. Not to mentioned procs off 'any spell cast' so even hitting Ice Lash on the pull can proc cast speed.</blockquote>So you are near max casting speed most of the time - that must help you compete with the assasin in your guild a lot. I think you guys also run with 2 troubs. Trying to convince azleya to do the same.

Noxxia

07-19-2008, 04:53 AM

Just for grins, My wiz is almost always in the top two for dps in any group and 99% of the time he has the largest single hit so either all of the scouts I have grouped with sucked, or I have a pretty good feel for what I need to cast and when. I do not have 1 aa in the int tree either and my caster is a human. Most of the time I out dps the group, and I hold my own in raids, I have the status to prove it, top 100 for my server for all characters and my wiz is only 72 with less than 100 aa points. I have no mythical or fabled items, and just one legendary which is a junk hat I kept for the fear proc. So almost all master crafted items with few if any adorments. I can not wait to get to 80, it should be very interesting.

Mythal_EQ2

07-19-2008, 08:26 AM

Let's get a couple of things straight:a) Group DPS means nothing. Nothing. Mobs die so fast that the DPS will either favor the highest hitter, or the one casting faster (depending on how soon the fight ends, and whether those high-hits get to land before the mob is dead or not). The only real measure for DPS is in raids.b) Highest hit also means very little. And that is just a silly misconception people have. The "wow" factor. "Man, you just hit that thing for 150k! You rule!" -- Stop and consider, how long did it take that person (or yourself) to cast that 150k uberlicious spell, and how soon can you recast it? And, above all, while you were busy waiting for that 150k spell to go off, how many smaller attacks did others get to land. Because if, while you're casting your spell, someone else does 150 attacks that do about 1.2k each, you know what? He's got you beat. Plus, chances are, you'll just pull agro and die with that high hit of yours, whereas they won't.With the above said, I have no doubt that, even at 72, with less than 100AAs, in groups and among comparable level players, you will be top parser (whatever significance that might have in a group situation).If you are also topping the parse in raids, then I have to say that you should probably find a different raid to join, because the rest of the people there simply suck.Finally, I will not argue that, as wizards, we can do decent DPS. And, at the extremely high-end of the game, with Avatar, Tangrin, Byzola and whatever else gear (and always in a proper raid setup) we will do great -- perhaps not as great as an assassin (except for very specific fights), but we'll do good. The problem is, currently, that 99.9% of wizards will never see those items until 4 expansions from now, and by then it's going to be a whole different ballgame. Fact is, that for that 99.9%... well, tough, you're out of luck.D.

thajo

07-19-2008, 10:45 AM

next post.

thajo

07-19-2008, 11:05 AM

<cite>Mythal_EQ2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's get a couple of things straight:a) Group DPS means nothing. Nothing. Mobs die so fast that the DPS will either favor the highest hitter, or the one casting faster (depending on how soon the fight ends, and whether those high-hits get to land before the mob is dead or not). The only real measure for DPS is in raids.yeap ^_^b) Highest hit also means very little. And that is just a silly misconception people have. The "wow" factor. "Man, you just hit that thing for 150k! You rule!" -- Stop and consider, how long did it take that person (or yourself) to cast that 150k uberlicious spell, and how soon can you recast it? And, above all, while you were busy waiting for that 150k spell to go off, how many smaller attacks did others get to land. Because if, while you're casting your spell, someone else does 150 attacks that do about 1.2k each, you know what? He's got you beat. Plus, chances are, you'll just pull agro and die with that high hit of yours, whereas they won't.I can cast manaburn in 3.6 seconds and if you have certain raid items to deal with instant aggro if thats the case. But I've manaburn very very early in fights, hit over 100k and tank shows no signs of aggro trouble. And I can sure cast my uberlicious 100k+ manaburn before assassin recast their (10+ min recast) execute that might do half the dmg of a manaburn. If you get proper group setups and right temp buffs rolling (ie. setup for max casting speed via temp buffs) - we are looking at bolt of ice, 2 seconds. Fission, 2.5 seconds. Ball of Magma, 1.5 seconds etc. Enough significance can't be placed on group surrounding wizards and some will make huge impacts on our dps. Like a kick butt (lol I can't say 'a r s e' like Nickelodeon has?) mystic spamming you with RoA instead of a fury giving a lousy handful of INT. OR a templar/dirge stacked with the mage group essentials to provide extra cast speeds or higher proc rates. Wizards parsing high numbers are often under these conditions.With the above said, I have no doubt that, even at 72, with less than 100AAs, in groups and among comparable level players, you will be top parser (whatever significance that might have in a group situation).If you are also topping the parse in raids, then I have to say that you should probably find a different raid to join, because the rest of the people there simply suck.This is dumb. Wizards ought to share the parse among several top parsers if all are skilled. Not every fight is stacked our way (nor other people) based on whats up, whats procing atm, thus its not surprise people share the #1 spot on trash pull to trash pull. But zonewide theres nothing incorrect about a wizard topping the parse or being top. It's not a 100% consistency that I top our parse and I don't always top zonewides by any means. I've had my share though, I do alot better I think in comparative zonewides in VP though. Not all fights are the same and not all classes are the same - with this in mind some fights will cater to others styles more than another. It is what it is, for consistency every mob would have to have same aoes, same dmg shields, same lvl con, same HP etc. and it just isn't that way.Finally, I will not argue that, as wizards, we can do decent DPS. And, at the extremely high-end of the game, with Avatar, Tangrin, Byzola and whatever else gear (and always in a proper raid setup) we will do great -- perhaps not as great as an assassin (except for very specific fights), but we'll do good. The problem is, currently, that 99.9% of wizards will never see those items until 4 expansions from now, and by then it's going to be a whole different ballgame. Fact is, that for that 99.9%... well, tough, you're out of luck.How much experience do you have with avatars and other said mobs? Tangrin and Avatars are often the fights where wizzies triumph way over assassins in dps capability. Rangers and Wizards are usually the ones topping those fights as they are like 100% ranged style fights often. Backstabbing a giant monkey with deathly AoE's is not easy =p. Now I think its funny you say, you won't argue that we can do decent dps. I thought that was a given beyond all beleif because we can pump t1 dps. Yes we are probably more group sensitive than some classes, so get a raid leader who knows what they are doing and gives proper groups. I mean its apples and oranges if Wizard A is in the fat-kid group without a troub or illy and he complains because he can't parse as high as Wizard B who has a troub/illy/mystic and such. Our assassin is pretty mean and he beats me enough...but on some zonewides i've looked at he wasn't slamming me by 1k - 2k dps like i've heard suggested. It was more like 100 - 300dps in a kor-sha run ><D.</blockquote>

Skwor

07-19-2008, 12:21 PM

<cite>thajoka wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mythal_EQ2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's get a couple of things straight:a) Group DPS means nothing. Nothing. Mobs die so fast that the DPS will either favor the highest hitter, or the one casting faster (depending on how soon the fight ends, and whether those high-hits get to land before the mob is dead or not). The only real measure for DPS is in raids.yeap ^_^b) Highest hit also means very little. And that is just a silly misconception people have. The "wow" factor. "Man, you just hit that thing for 150k! You rule!" -- Stop and consider, how long did it take that person (or yourself) to cast that 150k uberlicious spell, and how soon can you recast it? And, above all, while you were busy waiting for that 150k spell to go off, how many smaller attacks did others get to land. Because if, while you're casting your spell, someone else does 150 attacks that do about 1.2k each, you know what? He's got you beat. Plus, chances are, you'll just pull agro and die with that high hit of yours, whereas they won't.I can cast manaburn in 3.6 seconds and if you have certain raid items to deal with instant aggro if thats the case. But I've manaburn very very early in fights, hit over 100k and tank shows no signs of aggro trouble. And I can sure cast my uberlicious 100k+ manaburn before assassin recast their (10+ min recast) execute that might do half the dmg of a manaburn. If you get proper group setups and right temp buffs rolling (ie. setup for max casting speed via temp buffs) - we are looking at bolt of ice, 2 seconds. Fission, 2.5 seconds. Ball of Magma, 1.5 seconds etc. Enough significance can't be placed on group surrounding wizards and some will make huge impacts on our dps. Like a kick butt (lol I can't say 'a r s e' like Nickelodeon has?) mystic spamming you with RoA instead of a fury giving a lousy handful of INT. OR a templar/dirge stacked with the mage group essentials to provide extra cast speeds or higher proc rates. Wizards parsing high numbers are often under these conditions.With the above said, I have no doubt that, even at 72, with less than 100AAs, in groups and among comparable level players, you will be top parser (whatever significance that might have in a group situation).If you are also topping the parse in raids, then I have to say that you should probably find a different raid to join, because the rest of the people there simply suck.This is dumb. Wizards ought to share the parse among several top parsers if all are skilled. Not every fight is stacked our way (nor other people) based on whats up, whats procing atm, thus its not surprise people share the #1 spot on trash pull to trash pull. But zonewide theres nothing incorrect about a wizard topping the parse or being top. It's not a 100% consistency that I top our parse and I don't always top zonewides by any means. I've had my share though, I do alot better I think in comparative zonewides in VP though. Not all fights are the same and not all classes are the same - with this in mind some fights will cater to others styles more than another. It is what it is, for consistency every mob would have to have same aoes, same dmg shields, same lvl con, same HP etc. and it just isn't that way.Finally, I will not argue that, as wizards, we can do decent DPS. And, at the extremely high-end of the game, with Avatar, Tangrin, Byzola and whatever else gear (and always in a proper raid setup) we will do great -- perhaps not as great as an assassin (except for very specific fights), but we'll do good. The problem is, currently, that 99.9% of wizards will never see those items until 4 expansions from now, and by then it's going to be a whole different ballgame. Fact is, that for that 99.9%... well, tough, you're out of luck.How much experience do you have with avatars and other said mobs? Tangrin and Avatars are often the fights where wizzies triumph way over assassins in dps capability. Rangers and Wizards are usually the ones topping those fights as they are like 100% ranged style fights often. Backstabbing a giant monkey with deathly AoE's is not easy =p. Now I think its funny you say, you won't argue that we can do decent dps. I thought that was a given beyond all beleif because we can pump t1 dps. Yes we are probably more group sensitive than some classes, so get a raid leader who knows what they are doing and gives proper groups. I mean its apples and oranges if Wizard A is in the fat-kid group without a troub or illy and he complains because he can't parse as high as Wizard B who has a troub/illy/mystic and such. Our assassin is pretty mean and he beats me enough...but on some zonewides i've looked at he wasn't slamming me by 1k - 2k dps like i've heard suggested. It was more like 100 - 300dps in a kor-sha run >< I asked before and I ask again. Since you are one of the few ( from what I have seen possibly the ONLY wizard) who can compete on raids (meaning parse equally often enough with an equivalent assassin as to be considered balanced and competitive) Just what are your ZWs? Then please enlighten the rest of us so we all can parse competitivly (read not usually number 2 on 80+ percent of the raids with assassins having a commanding lead on 80% of those parses)D.</blockquote></blockquote>To continue please go to this thread <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=45&topic_id=418679" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=418679</a>where an ASSASSIN independently makes the 2K claim about the Assassins/Wizard numbers as well. Daray who has put together a wonderfull guide and many other world class players (I am by no means in that class) are seeing this skew. thajoka you continue to state wizards have no issues parsing equivalently to assasins and often enough as to where we are more than equal on raids (from what I can make of your opinion), so I ask. What are your numbers? What are your assassin's numbers? How is it you can do what so many other wizards can't? I think you may have posted a parse at flame but as I do not have an account there please provide the post here . If you won't, just provide me the link at Flames and I will finally open an account there.

Mythal_EQ2

07-19-2008, 04:48 PM

Hmm... I won't do the fancy quote thing, but hey... here's my replies anyway <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />On b) --> True, Manaburn is one option that, at least once every 4:30 mins (or less, depending on group setup, JC, RoA, etc) will do a big hit, and (again given the proper group setup) will not keep you out of the fight due to lack of power for more than a second or so anyway. However, my point remains: in the time it takes us to cast manaburn -- assuming that all classes have their timers free and everything -- how much damage could another class dish out? Maybe we hit for 100k, and they do a 40k Execute, and another 50k in other CAs, auto-attacks and procs. Sure, our 100k is going to look impressive on the screen, but the overall difference in damage output is minimal in the end. As always, there are exceptions to the rule, i.e. the golems in Kor'Sha that just die so fast that if you manage to get manaburn off just right, you're guarranteed an impressive position on the parser. However, and I say this fully knowing the implications, in many cases this will be phantom DPS -- i.e. you get Manaburn (or any other high-hit) off when the mob is at 1% or whatever, with an actual amount of hitpoints less than, say 20k, but your hit registers for 100k... That's 80k "phantom" damage. ----------------------------------------------------------------------On the next comment (about his parse position), I was of course referring to his specific example -- of a lvl 72 wizard, with less than 100AAs and mastercrafted gear, and few (if any) masters. Of course, at higher levels and with better gear, things would be different. But I agree, wizards (as all classes supposed to be T1 dps) aught to share the top parse positions, without (generally) huge spikes in dps difference, barring exceptional situations (mob positioning, special resists, knockbacks, fears, etc etc). This, however, is currently not the case.----------------------------------------------------------------------Wizards, and other casters, will generally do better in fights like PR, Overking, and Avatars, because of the group encounters there. I will say here that, because of the nature of the adds in PR and Overking (heroic adds), I think it's a little silly to say "Oh, wow, I parsed 9.4k zonewide in PR/Overking!". Still it's true, that our zonewide parse in those zones will be significantly higher.Avatar fights are a different story, and there I'll agree that casters can shine. However, again, I'll ask: ultimately, how many wizards overall will get to participate in those fights? 0.1%?---------------------------------------------------------------------Finally, I'm not claiming to be an expert on Avatar fights (though I've participated in a few), and I'll be the last to say that I can beat our assassin (though I am second on the parse most of the time). I do believe I know our class well, though, and what would be necessary to improve our odds throughout the level range against melee classes, and not just at the extreme high end. Again, I will say that, with the ultimate gear out there, the wizard will be able to keep up with anyone -- assassin or not -- given the proper support. However, until that point, and for the grand majority of the wizard population, this is an unattainable dream.D.

mrsma

07-21-2008, 10:14 AM

I play a lvl 33 Wiz and the following is true ........... as long as I cast at the same time the MT engages otherwise if I wait for the MT to get aggro the mob / target is already half dead by which time when my nuke does land its almost dead ! I can build with DOTs but the big kerpow hits, that a different story - at least with the mobs around the lvl 30's unless its a named ^^^ which gives me a bit more time to let rip my balls of fire....... Just my experience thus far...<a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Wizard.jpg" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><img src="http://images.wikia.com/eq2/images/f/fe/Wizard.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="276" height="342" /></a>

mcavellero

07-22-2008, 01:27 AM

<cite>Mrsmall@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I play a lvl 33 Wiz and the following is true ........... as long as I cast at the same time the MT engages otherwise if I wait for the MT to get aggro the mob / target is already half dead by which time when my nuke does land its almost dead ! I can build with DOTs but the big kerpow hits, that a different story - at least with the mobs around the lvl 30's unless its a named ^^^ which gives me a bit more time to let rip my balls of fire....... Just my experience thus far...<a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Wizard.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://images.wikia.com/eq2/images/f/fe/Wizard.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="276" height="342" /></a></blockquote>not to be off topic but it does get a little better with AAs and 70+ gear BUT you will be licking the boots of assassins and even brawlers & other scouts. So if you want top DPS reroll to an assassin. If you feel like torturing yourself like me, then proceed with this class lol.

Masema

07-22-2008, 10:36 PM

I can say as an Assassin, i do very well on the Parse, but Wizards are a lot better at soloing. I play a few other chars, a Wizard, Fury, Necro and a Pally. They are all better at soloing then my Assassin, so even though when raiding, assassins get high parses, The Hundreads of quests we did getting to 80 was pretty tough..

thajo

07-24-2008, 10:57 AM

Well we did SoH last night so I compiled a zonewide of all the trash mobs. I came in at 6k and the assassin came in at 6.8k. Indeed that zone does seem to leave us behind a bit, lots of quick fights tho so any resist is killer to a single trash pull in there. We were top 2 tho, I think ranger was in behind me. Now just the day before I did similar with my parse for VP and the assassin only came out less than 200dps over me. Although it does line up with what aeralik preaches. Huger difference short fights (soh), evens out more in vp (less than 200dps difference most the time) and on avatars/tangrin and stuff usually assassin isn't even close to me. Think last Storms parse I was at 3800 and assassin was near 2k. Although there is probably a higher population of players doing t1 - 3/soh runs verses those in VP verses those pulling contested mobs. Wizards have the clear upper-hand on assassins in a raid situation that the common player doesn't experience. Just thought i'd add my 2c that i've observed. Not leaning in any direction of action tho yet, my guild is running t1 - 3 zones tonight I believe though so I guess i'll run my parse and see how it goes.

Mythal_EQ2

07-24-2008, 11:11 AM

<cite>thajoka wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well we did SoH last night so I compiled a zonewide of all the trash mobs. I came in at 6k and the assassin came in at 6.8k. Indeed that zone does seem to leave us behind a bit, lots of quick fights tho so any resist is killer to a single trash pull in there. We were top 2 tho, I think ranger was in behind me. Now just the day before I did similar with my parse for VP and the assassin only came out less than 200dps over me. Although it does line up with what aeralik preaches. Huger difference short fights (soh), evens out more in vp (less than 200dps difference most the time) and on avatars/tangrin and stuff usually assassin isn't even close to me. Think last Storms parse I was at 3800 and assassin was near 2k. Although there is probably a higher population of players doing t1 - 3/soh runs verses those in VP verses those pulling contested mobs. Wizards have the clear upper-hand on assassins in a raid situation that the common player doesn't experience. Just thought i'd add my 2c that i've observed. Not leaning in any direction of action tho yet, my guild is running t1 - 3 zones tonight I believe though so I guess i'll run my parse and see how it goes.</blockquote>What is your gear like? Do you have VP pants, Trak belt, Mayong orb, Avatar robe, earring, secondary, SoH charm slot items? If yes, then I agree -- and I think it's been stated in several threads: in the extreme high-end, casters catch up to scouts.This extreme high-end though covers barely 0.1% of all casters, and until that point, with similar tier gear, scouts will pound you to the ground.Furthermore, even with your gear, I am sure you need more support (group make-up, and proper debuffs -- guess from who) to be able to compete, whereas a scout will do just fine with just a dirge in group (and hey, they can debuff almost everything for themselves anyway).D.

DerFunkBlaster

07-24-2008, 11:29 AM

<cite>thajoka wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well we did SoH last night so I compiled a zonewide of all the trash mobs. I came in at 6k and the assassin came in at 6.8k. Indeed that zone does seem to leave us behind a bit, lots of quick fights tho so any resist is killer to a single trash pull in there. We were top 2 tho, I think ranger was in behind me. Now just the day before I did similar with my parse for VP and the assassin only came out less than 200dps over me. Although it does line up with what aeralik preaches. Huger difference short fights (soh), evens out more in vp (less than 200dps difference most the time) and on avatars/tangrin and stuff usually assassin isn't even close to me. Think last Storms parse I was at 3800 and assassin was near 2k. Although there is probably a higher population of players doing t1 - 3/soh runs verses those in VP verses those pulling contested mobs. Wizards have the clear upper-hand on assassins in a raid situation that the common player doesn't experience. Just thought i'd add my 2c that i've observed. Not leaning in any direction of action tho yet, my guild is running t1 - 3 zones tonight I believe though so I guess i'll run my parse and see how it goes.</blockquote>One of the biggest problem zones is definately SoH. VP isnt as bad but this is subjective to the guild and players you are going up against. You said that the assasin did 6800 ZW on the trash for SoH last night, the assasin in my guild did over 8k zonewide on the trash last night in SoH. I don't think our fight times were any different, however. In SoH it really depends on the quality of debuffs IMO. I was giving some crap to the scouts last night and people were pretty annoyed. I had fun though. I just hope they get the idea that debuffing is very impt. We only had 1 brigand on the raid too. It was hard to care when every 3rd or 4th fight my spells would land for the values I wanted. WTB Consistency <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Edit:Dakkota - does your ranger use his snare heat debuff?

thajo

07-24-2008, 11:45 AM

<cite>Mythal_EQ2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thajoka wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well we did SoH last night so I compiled a zonewide of all the trash mobs. I came in at 6k and the assassin came in at 6.8k. Indeed that zone does seem to leave us behind a bit, lots of quick fights tho so any resist is killer to a single trash pull in there. We were top 2 tho, I think ranger was in behind me. Now just the day before I did similar with my parse for VP and the assassin only came out less than 200dps over me. Although it does line up with what aeralik preaches. Huger difference short fights (soh), evens out more in vp (less than 200dps difference most the time) and on avatars/tangrin and stuff usually assassin isn't even close to me. Think last Storms parse I was at 3800 and assassin was near 2k. Although there is probably a higher population of players doing t1 - 3/soh runs verses those in VP verses those pulling contested mobs. Wizards have the clear upper-hand on assassins in a raid situation that the common player doesn't experience. Just thought i'd add my 2c that i've observed. Not leaning in any direction of action tho yet, my guild is running t1 - 3 zones tonight I believe though so I guess i'll run my parse and see how it goes.</blockquote>What is your gear like? Do you have VP pants, Trak belt, Mayong orb, Avatar robe, earring, secondary, SoH charm slot items? If yes, then I agree -- and I think it's been stated in several threads: in the extreme high-end, casters catch up to scouts.This extreme high-end though covers barely 0.1% of all casters, and until that point, with similar tier gear, scouts will pound you to the ground.Furthermore, even with your gear, I am sure you need more support (group make-up, and proper debuffs -- guess from who) to be able to compete, whereas a scout will do just fine with just a dirge in group (and hey, they can debuff almost everything for themselves anyway).D.</blockquote><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=793219105" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=793219105</a>

thajo

07-24-2008, 11:50 AM

<cite>DerFunkBlaster wrote:</cite><cite></cite><blockquote>One of the biggest problem zones is definately SoH. VP isnt as bad but this is subjective to the guild and players you are going up against. You said that the assasin did 6800 ZW on the trash for SoH last night, the assasin in my guild did over 8k zonewide on the trash last night in SoH. I don't think our fight times were any different, however. In SoH it really depends on the quality of debuffs IMO. I was giving some crap to the scouts last night and people were pretty annoyed. I had fun though. I just hope they get the idea that debuffing is very impt. We only had 1 brigand on the raid too. It was hard to care when every 3rd or 4th fight my spells would land for the values I wanted. WTB Consistency <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Edit:Dakkota - does your ranger use his snare heat debuff?</blockquote>As to the ranger question, I do not know, have never asked. I would think so though.

Marie-Ange Jourdelune

07-28-2008, 05:11 PM

Zmobie

07-28-2008, 06:49 PM

Doom, in KJ, is not immune to root.Neither are the "triplets" in uh.. um.. Maiden's Chamber(?). Those are the only ones I've tried to root, but by no means are all triple-ups in RoK immune.--Tusk

Ienumerable

08-12-2008, 04:45 PM

Well I have a Nerco, Wiz and Scout (all below 25) and my Wiz is the strongest.In fact at very low level he is down right amazing! I guess its the race/other set ups.He is a Eurdite and an outfitter so his equipt is pretty sweet.

Mudfur

09-16-2008, 03:34 AM

<cite>Ienumerable wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well I have a Nerco, Wiz and Scout (all below 25) and my Wiz is the strongest.In fact at very low level he is down right amazing! I guess its the race/other set ups.He is a Eurdite and an outfitter so his equipt is pretty sweet.</blockquote>No offense, but I take this almost as a joke. It makes me feel bad when I see people make posts such as the one above because they're taking information from the newb-beginnings of the game and trying to apply the information to end-game.And quite simply, EQ2 is not like that.....at allEQ2 has become a game obsessed with end-game content and loot. The only numbers that matter are the numbers of end-game and end-game gear. Nobody here on the forums really care about leveling up because many of us, including myself, have a 1-way best system of quest or XP grindining to get characters to 80 as fast as possible. Only level 80 and end-game matters when it comes to wizard DPS on this forum. We dont' care that your level 38 wizard is badass and can do a lot of dps. You probably aren't doing as much as you think anyways.So if you want to understand why wizards are upset, try to understand that at lvl 80 we're not doing 1337 damage anymore. In fact, we're behind assassins and other scouts....by a lot....and we require many more buffs and depend more heavily on others debuffing. This changes extreme end-game with the proper gear but getting to that point is a feat that not many reach...and why is it that only the extreme end-game wizards pull ahead of assassin dps?Equivalent-geared and skilled wizards should out-dps every other class in the game on single-targets, hands down. Why? Read our description in EQ2, think about how we have very little utility (raid/group utility), think about how we wear paper armor, and just think about what a [Removed for Content] wizard is. It's not a reality.....and the devs have YET to acknowledge this.PLEASE DEVS JUST ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIS IS A PROBLEM!

Erithorn

09-16-2008, 10:04 AM

pfffft...We need a special forum for "end-game" rants... Wizards are fun to play and kill things quickly if that is what you want. Who cares what damage character "A" does compared to character "B" except if you are weenie wagging!Better if all these posts could be put in one forum for a "end-game" Dev to read .. and let the rest of us happy blasters laugh at our exploits in adventuring <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />ValdinarWizard of Oasis (51)

thajo

09-16-2008, 11:04 AM

Speak for yourself there Mudfur.Oh and since end-game gear is all that matters, you ever looked into stoneskin and how it makes mages survivability insanely good? I'm sick of hearing mages say were made of paper when SoE nicely provides 3 legendary, easy to obtain (one is from a faction merchant lol) stoneskin proc items. With just the 3 provided a mage can tank a heroic instance, so I don't want to hear hooey about how we are paper. We have presented options, use em or lose em. (they are tagged mage only so they are exclusive to our paperness). Oh and if you raid VP - perhaps they saw wizzies as the MOST fragile because above all other mages, they gave us an additional displacement (2x stoneskin) proc embedded on our wizard set gear. An additional stoneskin given exclusivly for a wizard hmm, and you say SoE doesn't acknowledge that we are fragile? But still for mages in general, there are two more displacement procs available through VP, and when all coupled together a mage prolly has better survivability than a scout without question.I simply disagree with the dps thing but, to each their own.Our description on Eq2 doesn't say we should do the most single target dps in the game, try to re-read it before you solomly swear by it and try to quote it. It says we can do more single target dps than any other mage. I'd say that holds pretty true. And right now, a dps mage group (if you had to pick from a pool of mages) the wizard would be picked 2nd after the illusionist. Why would a mage group want a necro/coercer/conjuror/warlock. Wizards have ice-lash (and a minor melee dmg proc, but so do Locks I think), Ice Lash is huge though and can add 150 - 300dps zonewide per mage/frequent spell caster. Warlocks should be mad because in EoF they were almost desired MORE than a wizzy because of how propagations worked. Once that was nerfed, warlocks wern't so highly desired in mage groups. Coercers are great but they buff MT's better than a dps mage group. So...A wizzy being the 2nd most desireable mage next to an illusionist is bad? Wheres the beef? I just fail to see our disposition.

Baynne

09-16-2008, 03:35 PM

i gotta say.. i use to read these types of threads while i was lvling up my wizzy. before this wizard, i had never gotten one beyond lvl 33 because of resists... then i actually looked at AAs and took the stamina line, and pretty much tanked my way up to 60ish. it was a blast, i couldnt figure out what the big deal was in these posts. then at about lvl 73 it all kicked in. I was in groups where i could barely get a nuke off because of scout melee dps. even the serker was beating me to the punch. at lvl 78, with only a lvl and a half to go... i almost shelved my wizard. i did not play him for a few months. then i decided screw it, i want a lvl 80 toon, and i grinded it out. I experimented a lot more in groups with casting orders, precasts, temp buffs, and i still do. wizards may be able to "solo better" but reading these posts that is a moot point. this is about raid DPS. now, i do not raid often, nor do i raid the uber content, so i am in no way claiming to be an expert on it. however, my guild went to SoH last week, and i kept an eye on the parse the whole time. i managed to come in 3rd on the ZW under an assassin and a swash, under me was the other wiz and a brig. my other issue is that i played a wiz in EQ1 for a long time, and i unfortunately still miss a lot of qualities about them. instant nukes, kiting, better harvest, and way bigger booms. plus i think their epic 2.0 looks way cooler than what our epic is haha. while i have fewer complaints about the class than i did, there are some things i would think would be a nice boost:maybe another focus damage spell, a nuke, not a dot.faster cast times.the ability to change our dots into condensed DD.levitation is just a dream ill always have even if SoE claims they will never implement it haha. that is more for aesthetics than anything, i miss my levi <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />there may be plenty of high end raid gear that can boost our DPS a ton... but i think it would be nice to have that available to us less hardcore players even in a weaker form. Or i am just not looking in the right places. for now, im okay at least being in the top 5 on the ZW.

Skwor

09-17-2008, 06:40 PM

Mudfur

09-17-2008, 06:40 PM

<cite>thajoka wrote:</cite><blockquote>Speak for yourself there Mudfur.Oh and since end-game gear is all that matters, you ever looked into stoneskin and how it makes mages survivability insanely good? I'm sick of hearing mages say were made of paper when SoE nicely provides 3 legendary, easy to obtain (one is from a faction merchant lol) stoneskin proc items. With just the 3 provided a mage can tank a heroic instance, so I don't want to hear hooey about how we are paper. We have presented options, use em or lose em. (they are tagged mage only so they are exclusive to our paperness). Oh and if you raid VP - perhaps they saw wizzies as the MOST fragile because above all other mages, they gave us an additional displacement (2x stoneskin) proc embedded on our wizard set gear. An additional stoneskin given exclusivly for a wizard hmm, and you say SoE doesn't acknowledge that we are fragile? But still for mages in general, there are two more displacement procs available through VP, and when all coupled together a mage prolly has better survivability than a scout without question.I simply disagree with the dps thing but, to each their own.Our description on Eq2 doesn't say we should do the most single target dps in the game, try to re-read it before you solomly swear by it and try to quote it. It says we can do more single target dps than any other mage. I'd say that holds pretty true. And right now, a dps mage group (if you had to pick from a pool of mages) the wizard would be picked 2nd after the illusionist. Why would a mage group want a necro/coercer/conjuror/warlock. Wizards have ice-lash (and a minor melee dmg proc, but so do Locks I think), Ice Lash is huge though and can add 150 - 300dps zonewide per mage/frequent spell caster. Warlocks should be mad because in EoF they were almost desired MORE than a wizzy because of how propagations worked. Once that was nerfed, warlocks wern't so highly desired in mage groups. Coercers are great but they buff MT's better than a dps mage group. So...A wizzy being the 2nd most desireable mage next to an illusionist is bad? Wheres the beef? I just fail to see our disposition.</blockquote>And this is why nothing is being done for wizards.....^^^^Ice Lash? You mean velium gift? Oh yeah, I forgot, you probably aren't even level 80. I always hear this argument for wizard utility. Well, here are the facts for you =).Velium Gifts + Ice Shape. Ice Shape changes MAGIC and FIRE spells into ICE for GROUP. Velium Gifts only procs off of ICE SPELLS for GROUP. Therefore, in a mage group, the only people who truly benefit from velium gifts and ice shape is other wizards and conjurors. Done. Go over to the wizard guide to see how much DPS velium gifts actually adds. Might be surprised to learn the truth =).Next, your quote "Why would a mage group want a necro/coercer/conjuror/warlock?" Typically mage groups have a troubador for mage buffs....so you often might see at least 1 of the four...(probably not a coercer, however, for they are better suited in MT/OT group). Mage groups almost always have illusionist, troubador, fury as a baseline. Then you see variations of wizard/warlock/necro/conjuror.Next, Wizards, in fact, should do the most single-target damage in the game, hands down. You go on this dispersion and displacement rant but I don't know if you noticed that it's not like a permanent buff....it's a proc. If we can't even survive 1-3 hits we're toast anyways. Granted we might get lucky, especially with multiple pieces, but you have to think then what we'd have to sacrifice to get put on dispersion gear. Not all dispersion gear is the best gear for DPS. So the reason why wizards are angry is because we offer nothing to raid/groups but dps (melee proc is weak, velium gifts explained, power feed is extremely weak, group buffs are common to most mages), and assassins theoretically our melee counterpart is able to significant out-dps us..plus they survive better....plus they have a much more significant hate transfer.Sorcerers catch up....extreme end-game with avatar loot but not many reach there.And yes, we do need a forum entitled "end-game". I'm tired of seeing input from non-80's and non-raiders.

SacDaddy420

09-17-2008, 07:40 PM

um, mud.....thejoka is Dakkota in Confirmed on Unrest bro. One of the few wizards in the game who actually has better gear then mealso, ice lash will proc off any "non-heat" spell castassassins still own our dps. And I raid with a brig whos pretty much my equal. Wondering where my Dispatch is....<3 ya though

thajo

09-18-2008, 11:05 AM

<cite></cite><blockquote>Ice Lash? You mean velium gift? Oh yeah, I forgot, you probably aren't even level 80. I always hear this argument for wizard utility. Well, here are the facts for you =).</blockquote>Now I have to pick apart your post and call you out on blatent things you were incorrect about. why? Because you type things without even knowing what your talking about.1. Before you come down sounding so condescending you should load up ACT parser because whether you are level 30 or level 80, it spell it procs is called Ice Lash. Appears I know a bit more about this spell than you do! hehe, foot --> mouth. 2. I think its great you put in such huge letters about how ice lash only procs off ICE only spells. Get this, it procs of all spells that are NOT heat. Just incase you some here with untested claims on the contrary, heres an ACT screenshot I pulled while im idling here in JW. Notice how I only used velium gift, and casted electron storm as a magic spell, yet it proc'd ice lash. Probably because wizards are the true ones who benefit from Ice Shape because since it DOESNT proc heat spells, we need it so that half our spells actually proc it. Only benefits wizards and conjs? This is flat out incorrect. When that proc goes up, everyones spells will do it. All spells except heat do it, but if anyone had heat spells your ice shape just made them cold. Therefor, velium gift in itself benefits the group more than us, the ice shape is mostly for our sake. So based on this that totally throws off your assumption of how useful this proc is, and makes it many times more useful than you imagined. Even troubs and dirges love ice lash. Anyhow heres that SS - see how I casted a magic spell and it proc'd Ice Lash.<img src="http://s495.photobucket.com/albums/rr313/dakkotax/?action=view&current=electron.jpg" border="0" alt="" /><img src="http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr313/dakkotax/electron.jpg?t=1221749032" border="0" alt="" />3. All you did about mage groups was list typical mage groups. What do those classes bring to the group? Illy is a given. Necros? That extra STA buff, hmm, no they don't bring any other dps elements to our group. Warlock? Well yeah they got propagations but its massivly nerfed to how useful it used to be and is no longer highly desired. Other than propagations and a group ally melee dmg proc, thats all the dps they bring (we have the melee proc too though). Conjurors? They bring just as many dps elements as necros for a mage group. A Melee proc IIRC is all they have too. Coercer well, they are left in MT groups. So grats, I just had to spell out slowly the same point I made before. Next to an illusionist a wizard will raise a mage groups overall dps higher than the other presented mages in that slot for a group. So you may think we have it bad, but..I really feel no room to complain when I have a group-wide PoTM thats up every minute. Not to mention any class that isn't a warlock or wizard should loves Rays to death. An Illy gets their cast speed high during combat via AA's that dropping rays on them is almost always a good move. Sure you mentioned a base-line group. But if you want to raise the potential a bit, replace that fury with a mystic or inquisitor. Templars are nice but, most of the time people don't have then laying around for mage group slots, so I usually dismiss then as they always end up in MT/OT groups. But if I could snatch any healer for a mage group, i'd pick templar > mystic > inqisitor > defiller > fury > warden. Oh unless its Avatar of Growth, then warden wins my heart <3.And for the other mages, people tend to fill the slots up to more pure groups. If you wanted to build a str8 up (wizard) dps group, i'd look into - Dirge/troub/mystic/illy/wizard(us)/ranger or brig, I find myself in a group like that more often than not and that really puts us at high potential. You may underestimate melee'ing the mob until theres a dirge in your group and your crushing + melee proc's you have are giving you 200dps. Illys like that setup and I've seen pull 500+ melee dps. Dispersion/displacements are procs yes, very powerful procs. Its consistent enough that I can tank heroic stuff pretty much without a hitch if I deck myself with them. They do provide lesser dps but, the ones in VP do indeed provide very awesome benefits. Which if your not in VP and beyond I don't see the need for high powered 2x displacement gear so the legendary stuff is still a godsend. It's not hte best dps but, its situational. What, should wizards get some insane stoneskine survivability with insane dps benefits on it? We get our set gear, which is good dps. Robe of Dark power is a very nice robe, and the VP ring gives +85 spell damage. If you are high end raiding and need to live, those are not bad exchanges for survive/dps. It's still IMO that a mage decked with stoneskin gear will outlive any scout. It's an option. Just like choker is an option that hurts you but gives higher dps. Well this makes you live longer at the slight cost of some dps. But until you have the end-game gear, giving up slots for stoneskin isn't really huge considering what you get.belt/forarms/shoulders are the legendary stoneskin slots. If you have heroic/legendary gear, you are not losing HUGE dps. And until Avatars the VP stoneskin robe is pretty much end-game.ps. Lol grats sac on the cane :p I know i saw you on the brink of tears many a day over it <3