I know I might get flamed for this but. [Archive]

evilgamer

06-03-2008, 05:34 PM

I sometimes think the fact that SK's use so many stats can be an advantage sometimes.Alot of gear has + int on it in addition to other nice stats, that if a warrior/brawler equiped they would not get the full benefit from.Say a breast plate that is 300 mit +20 sta, +20 agi, and +20 int.The warrior would only get really get the benefit of the stamina/agi, the Sk would benefit from sta/agi/ and the int.I know that when buying gear for my SK, I can be a bit more flexible about what I buy him. I can buy him a +10str + 10 agi bracer and a +10 sta + 10 in bracer and get some benefit out of both of them, where as with my bruiser the +10 str + 10 agi is clearly the better choice of the two. This sometime makes buying gear easier and a bit less expensive because of this flexiblity.I think the real issue is that often we dont a choice of +10 sta, agi, str, int gear but h, ave to choose between +10 str, sta, int or +str, sta, agi, so one of these stats suffers.I think this is just an itemization problem and I really dont understand why SOE doesnt throw + int on more melee based gear as its not like its hurting warrior/brawlers as long as they still get their +str, agi, and sta.

Razlath

06-03-2008, 06:29 PM

There is a basic flaw in your premise EG.We do not reieve full benefit from each of those stat gains. We receive half benefit from STR and INT (might not be exactly half due to CA vs. spells, etc.). In order for us to benefit more from the warrior on a piece of gear because it has INT we would have to recieve full bonus from both the INT and the STR. Instead if an item has +20str and +20int the warrior gets what is effectively a +20 stat benefit to their abilities and so do we. However, if the item has +20str and +10int the warrior receives what amounts to a +20 benefit from that piece of gear and we receive what amounts to a +15 bonus.The numbers obviously are not exact, but that is the basic flaw in your reasoning. If we recieved the exact same bonus for that STR as the warrior does AND we got a bonus from the INT as well then your reasoning would be correct. However, this is not the case.

Darkc

06-03-2008, 06:40 PM

Gear wise the problem is that many best "Tanking" items in RoK (Tramplers Boots, Arms Belt, Honor Guard Vambraces, Reet Helm, etc) lack Int. So we neglect INT which in turn effects our power pool / base spell damage if we want the best tanking gear. Warriors base stat is Str, so no loss there in acquiring the best items. Also, you seem to be talking about itemization in the lower level game. People read these boards and think, "Aww shucks, my new SK must suck". In reality, SKs are GREAT for everything up to raiding (even then they can be put to good use). Grab the MC gear sets with +Int, grab a 2h'er, 1h / shield for named, AD3s... and you're tanking + outparsing almost everyone. Nothing is wrong there. Then enter RoK where most encounters are single target + all the stat increasers on items make Auto Attack the primary form of DPS, then we fall behind a little bit. Though, you make a few smart equipment (and diety) choices and you're doing quite well again. After all, it's not like we have any penalties like in EQ1 (Different Damage Tables, Difference Mitigation tables lol). Figure out that Melee if your friend, don't spam all your spells to lose melee hits like other classes do with their CAs.

evilgamer

06-03-2008, 09:32 PM

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is a basic flaw in your premise EG.We do not reieve full benefit from each of those stat gains. We receive half benefit from STR and INT (might not be exactly half due to CA vs. spells, etc.). In order for us to benefit more from the warrior on a piece of gear because it has INT we would have to recieve full bonus from both the INT and the STR. Instead if an item has +20str and +20int the warrior gets what is effectively a +20 stat benefit to their abilities and so do we. However, if the item has +20str and +10int the warrior receives what amounts to a +20 benefit from that piece of gear and we receive what amounts to a +15 bonus.The numbers obviously are not exact, but that is the basic flaw in your reasoning. If we recieved the exact same bonus for that STR as the warrior does AND we got a bonus from the INT as well then your reasoning would be correct. However, this is not the case.</blockquote>I understand all that.My point is that if there s a +int,sta str item on the broker and a +str, agi, sta item I often have a choice because we can get some benefit from all those stats, my bruiser has no choice, he has to take the +str,sta, agi item otherwise I am short changing the toon.Say there is a neck piece on sale for 5g with +10 int and another that is +10 str but they want 20g. With Sk you can pick up the + int item and not be gimping yourself, with my bruiser I have to get the +str item cause int is so worthless for a bruiser your better of just saving your gold then putting a + int only item in a slot.Thats all I am saying, it does give you a bit more flexability when choosing gear.

rabid.pooh

06-03-2008, 10:29 PM

<cite>Darkc wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gear wise the problem is that many best "Tanking" items in RoK (Tramplers Boots, Arms Belt, Honor Guard Vambraces, Reet Helm, etc) lack Int. So we neglect INT which in turn effects our power pool / base spell damage if we want the best tanking gear. Warriors base stat is Str, so no loss there in acquiring the best items. Also, you seem to be talking about itemization in the lower level game. People read these boards and think, "Aww shucks, my new SK must suck". In reality, SKs are GREAT for everything up to raiding (even then they can be put to good use). Grab the MC gear sets with +Int, grab a 2h'er, 1h / shield for named, AD3s... and you're tanking + outparsing almost everyone. Nothing is wrong there. Then enter RoK where most encounters are single target + all the stat increasers on items make Auto Attack the primary form of DPS, then we fall behind a little bit. Though, you make a few smart equipment (and diety) choices and you're doing quite well again. After all, it's not like we have any penalties like in EQ1 (Different Damage Tables, Difference Mitigation tables lol). Figure out that Melee if your friend, don't spam all your spells to lose melee hits like other classes do with their CAs. </blockquote>I'm not asking this question tongue and cheek btw, Toes was raiding since t5 and has always had signficantly better gear then the average no raider, so I don't honestly know the answer to this question. but...Are you playing an SK wearing MC gear and adept 3s? I'm kinda of an alt aholic and let me tell you I've grouped with Sks that are geared that way or even better Rok legendary geared and they're not dominating the parse at all, I've outparsed them all with my coercer, monk and dirge. Once when playing my coercer in MC I was getting tells from both healers complaining that the other healer can't heal for nothing, I looked at the SKs incoming damage and both were healing their buts off, it was the SK who was getting chewed up every fight, this SK was geared in ROK legendary and sitting at a paultry 41% avoidance in group, my guard before he became geared out in fabled sat at a 57% avoid self buffed in master crafted and a buckler (he now sits at 68% self buffed, and up to 72.5% in a group). I had to log in the guard to finish Maidens because he was just taking to much damage, and no way could he have survived the sisters.Other SKs who are your average non raiding player I have played with continoulsy had agro issues within the group and most certainly a death in whatever zone we're in. Again this is Rok Legendary geared or less SKs. Now some SKs of course could just lack the skillz, I remember reading that some SKs on the boards here thought they were doing quite well with a 800dps zonewide in CoA at level 80...So to rehash the question is, are you a Master Crafted SK using Adept3's spells? Or are you, like Toes skewed from the gear you own?.OHHHH... and one more thing that has been driving me nuts (which has nothing to do with you darkc) to all the SKs out there not in the know; any tanks out there who are grouping with another fighter and are tanking.... Make sure the other fighter has his avoidance buff on you! Quit casting your Devious evasion and knocking their buff off! As I explained to an SK when I was playing my monk, "What do you think is better, 2% added to your base avoidance from your parry buff? or a 50% chance to use my 65% avoidance to block for you?" When grouping with another tank always ask for their avoidance buff if your tanking.

Margen

06-04-2008, 10:17 AM

Our lack of avoidance is well known, part of the problem is that we really have no avoidance aa lines, and our defensive stance is terriblly weak. If they wanted to have warriors avoide melee hits and us avoide magic based hits they should of given us a base spell avoidance vs the totally useless wisdom on our defensive. The argument still could be made that most damage is melee vs spell, but at least it would be somewhat more balanced then its current form. Plus of course our agro issues in defensive are well known also.

jagermonsta

06-04-2008, 10:21 AM

I tank in all RoK legendary with a couple fable jewelry items and no epic. I have mostly all adapt 3s and a few masters (taunts)... I'm a casual player for the most part.I don't have an issue tanking any RoK instances... Done Maidens with a single healer a number of times & no hate transfer. Not sure where the issue lies with the SKs you experienced. Don't get me wrong, hate transfer for a SK is defenitly a huge help, allows me to relax a bit.

Darkc

06-04-2008, 11:13 AM

<cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkc wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gear wise the problem is that many best "Tanking" items in RoK (Tramplers Boots, Arms Belt, Honor Guard Vambraces, Reet Helm, etc) lack Int. So we neglect INT which in turn effects our power pool / base spell damage if we want the best tanking gear. Warriors base stat is Str, so no loss there in acquiring the best items. Also, you seem to be talking about itemization in the lower level game. People read these boards and think, "Aww shucks, my new SK must suck". In reality, SKs are GREAT for everything up to raiding (even then they can be put to good use). Grab the MC gear sets with +Int, grab a 2h'er, 1h / shield for named, AD3s... and you're tanking + outparsing almost everyone. Nothing is wrong there. Then enter RoK where most encounters are single target + all the stat increasers on items make Auto Attack the primary form of DPS, then we fall behind a little bit. Though, you make a few smart equipment (and diety) choices and you're doing quite well again. After all, it's not like we have any penalties like in EQ1 (Different Damage Tables, Difference Mitigation tables lol). Figure out that Melee if your friend, don't spam all your spells to lose melee hits like other classes do with their CAs. </blockquote>I'm not asking this question tongue and cheek btw, Toes was raiding since t5 and has always had signficantly better gear then the average no raider, so I don't honestly know the answer to this question. but...Are you playing an SK wearing MC gear and adept 3s? I'm kinda of an alt aholic and let me tell you I've grouped with Sks that are geared that way or even better Rok legendary geared and they're not dominating the parse at all, I've outparsed them all with my coercer, monk and dirge. Once when playing my coercer in MC I was getting tells from both healers complaining that the other healer can't heal for nothing, I looked at the SKs incoming damage and both were healing their buts off, it was the SK who was getting chewed up every fight, this SK was geared in ROK legendary and sitting at a paultry 41% avoidance in group, my guard before he became geared out in fabled sat at a 57% avoid self buffed in master crafted and a buckler (he now sits at 68% self buffed, and up to 72.5% in a group). I had to log in the guard to finish Maidens because he was just taking to much damage, and no way could he have survived the sisters.Other SKs who are your average non raiding player I have played with continoulsy had agro issues within the group and most certainly a death in whatever zone we're in. Again this is Rok Legendary geared or less SKs. Now some SKs of course could just lack the skillz, I remember reading that some SKs on the boards here thought they were doing quite well with a 800dps zonewide in CoA at level 80...So to rehash the question is, are you a Master Crafted SK using Adept3's spells? Or are you, like Toes skewed from the gear you own?.OHHHH... and one more thing that has been driving me nuts (which has nothing to do with you darkc) to all the SKs out there not in the know; any tanks out there who are grouping with another fighter and are tanking.... Make sure the other fighter has his avoidance buff on you! Quit casting your Devious evasion and knocking their buff off! As I explained to an SK when I was playing my monk, "What do you think is better, 2% added to your base avoidance from your parry buff? or a 50% chance to use my 65% avoidance to block for you?" When grouping with another tank always ask for their avoidance buff if your tanking.</blockquote>On my MC comment I was referring to lower level play. Lvl 72+ MC should be reserved for Solo questing and DPS gear.As for SKs having problems tanking RoK instances, a big problem is there is no direction on gear. On my 80 Templar I find it amusing to group with 80 SKs and find they are wearing Ravaged Onslaught pieces, lacking any +Mit Adornments (or adornments period), have chain pieces, have like 200 int. and even had one SK refuse to use Bloodletter cause it harms the group! It's not particularly any harder to heal an SK than any other tank, just be prepared to deal with the occasion damage spikes (which happen to other tanks as well! The grass is always greener!). Also seems many "good" players tend to shy away from SKs cause of the bad rep, so many SKs you encounter are your "pickup" types that need their hand held through the zone... pull with a bow and get multiple adds... don't ever use Death March, etc. Berserkers are really the toughest tanks to heal imo. People can argue till blue in the face, but I honestly run zones in (NOTE: Teir 6, save the t8 version save it for strictly DPS role in raids / groups) Offensive and a 2h'er on trash and do fine. My average ZW parse hovers around 1300 - 2k depending on group set up.I wish I had time to create a Gear and a Basic Tanking 101 guide to help out newer SKs, maybe some else that's knowledgeable can take on that project.

Razlath

06-04-2008, 12:01 PM

Just a note on the grab the MC gear with INT on it comment. A full suit of Devout plate does not become available until T6. Before that it is head, chest (non imbued), legs (non imbued), and boot. Agreed it is a half suit, so better than nothing, but you can't grab a full suit of it as indicated and it can't be imbued (which in my opinion is a big loss).To EG. No I actually don't have more freedom when I buy gear. I MUST have gear that provides INT and STR. That actually limits my options significantly. When you say my bruiser MUST have STR gear I am saying I MUST have STR and INT (preferably in equal proportions to the STR you are looking for). If I choose an item that only has one or the other, I am only getting half of the effect from that item, and therefore it is much less effective.SKs have more stats to obtain and the same number of slots to put them in. That leads to less choices not more. Our STR and INT are split so raising one without the other has less of an effect than desired. Saying well you can get some benefit from the item so you can buy it is flawed. Every item MUST have both STR and INT if a SK wants to maximize DPS, otherwise you pay just as much for less benefit. A bruiser only needs STR. So you can buy any item with STR on it and see an increase, we can only see an equivalent increase by finding an item with both STR and INT. That actually makes a pure STR or INT person's choices greater than a split stat person's.

Nole

06-04-2008, 12:16 PM

I actually really like that we get benefit from all stats. The problem is that we don't get as much benefit from each stat as the pure class <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I think most of our gear problems would be solved if they just increased the benefits we got from stats.I don't know how caps work, but I imagine at a particular gear level we catch up because of diminishing returns on stats. (I imagine 700 str/int would be better than 1400 str).As for MCed gear, it's prefectly awesome before RoK. I had no problems pulling 2-3 groups of mobs in the early parts of Kaladim with a 2h in off stance. I couldn't keep them off our warlock if she went all out and Death March wasn't up though <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> With death march I was parsing over 1.5k and she around 3k though at low 60s with just random people group buffs (yay, AoEs!). With big AoE pulls I was also outparsing the healer's heals. Hearing there's not AoE stuff in RoK is both scary and annoying.The more I read complaints, I'm starting to think SKs aren't so much broken as the content was just purged of encounters that we'd do well on at T8.

Terron

06-04-2008, 12:38 PM

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a note on the grab the MC gear with INT on it comment. A full suit of Devout plate does not become available until T6. Before that it is head, chest (non imbued), legs (non imbued), and boot. Agreed it is a half suit, so better than nothing, but you can't grab a full suit of it as indicated and it can't be imbued (which in my opinion is a big loss).</blockquote>With the next GU they should become available in T5

Razlath

06-04-2008, 01:27 PM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a note on the grab the MC gear with INT on it comment. A full suit of Devout plate does not become available until T6. Before that it is head, chest (non imbued), legs (non imbued), and boot. Agreed it is a half suit, so better than nothing, but you can't grab a full suit of it as indicated and it can't be imbued (which in my opinion is a big loss).</blockquote>With the next GU they should become available in T5</blockquote>Yep, can't wait! Still have a few SK alt stragglers in my guild who will be happy too. ;}I know some day all back armors will get updated, but right now it can't be done before T6. Just didn't want everyone to run to their armorers and go, you can too make it, someone on the boards said so! And yes, I have had people do that to me. ;}

evilgamer

06-04-2008, 01:27 PM

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>. When you say my bruiser MUST have STR gear I am saying I MUST have STR and INT (preferably in equal proportions to the STR you are looking for).</blockquote>My brusier doesnt have to have str gear, he can just as easliy put on a +agi + sta item and get some benefit from it. Not every piece of gear my brusier has + str on it, some are just +agi or sta.I also dont think I must have str and int gear for my SK.At 22 I bought my SK a full set of the +agi, str, sta MC armor and his int was very low, but he did fine. Sure his dps was a little lower, but his avoidence was also much better to due to all the + agi gear. 6 to 1, half a dozen the other.That is what I like about my SK. I can buy a cheap + int,str,agi, sta, wis item and get some benefit out of it. On my bruiser I can really only buy a +str, sta, agi, wis item and see any real tangible benefits.Put it this way, say I am really poor and only have the coin for a +int neck slot. With my bruiser I might as well save my money, as int does almost nothing for my bruiser. But with my SK I can buy that item and get some increase power and dps for equiping it.

evilgamer

06-04-2008, 01:29 PM

Razlath

06-04-2008, 01:34 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Put it this way, say I am really poor and only have the coin for a +int neck slot. With my bruiser I might as well save my money, as int does almost nothing for my bruiser. But with my SK I can buy that item and get some increase power and dps for equiping it.</blockquote>If you are that poor you are better off saving your money.Your argument is just as flawed as when you first posted it.

Darkc

06-04-2008, 01:37 PM

<cite>Nole wrote:</cite><blockquote>I actually really like that we get benefit from all stats. The problem is that we don't get as much benefit from each stat as the pure class <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> I think most of our gear problems would be solved if they just increased the benefits we got from stats.I don't know how caps work, but I imagine at a particular gear level we catch up because of diminishing returns on stats. (I imagine 700 str/int would be better than 1400 str).As for MCed gear, it's prefectly awesome before RoK. I had no problems pulling 2-3 groups of mobs in the early parts of Kaladim with a 2h in off stance. I couldn't keep them off our warlock if she went all out and Death March wasn't up though <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> With death march I was parsing over 1.5k and she around 3k though at low 60s with just random people group buffs (yay, AoEs!). With big AoE pulls I was also outparsing the healer's heals. Hearing there's not AoE stuff in RoK is both scary and annoying.The more I read complaints, I'm starting to think SKs aren't so much broken as the content was just purged of encounters that we'd do well on at T8.</blockquote>The problem with T8 is a combination of single encounters and all the +auto attack stat gear + greatly improved weapons. Before RoK, most instances have quite a bit of multi encounters and your melee classes aren't almost to dimishing returns on auto attack stats without even a Bard / Enchanter / Berserker / Fury etc. Much more equal playing field, where your Spell Damage really shines. In RoK, to compete you have to get your auto attack up to par ... but we don't get high DA or Riposte abilities like Warriors for using a 1h / shield. Without those our Auto attack stinks comparatively, there's really not that much +spell damage gear that has our base stats (though there is SOME, which makes me sad to SKs that don't take advantage of such items... though the Force hoop is a slap in the face having +35 str, +35 Int and a neg focus mod and no other important Stats). The stuff is out there but there's very little info to help more casual SKs make wise gear choices in RoK.

evilgamer

06-04-2008, 03:22 PM

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Put it this way, say I am really poor and only have the coin for a +int neck slot. With my bruiser I might as well save my money, as int does almost nothing for my bruiser. But with my SK I can buy that item and get some increase power and dps for equiping it.</blockquote>If you are that poor you are better off saving your money. Not really, the +10 int would help, there is no denying that.Your argument is just as flawed as when you first posted it.Answer me this:How is not being able to use all the stats to decent benefit not an advantage to only being able to use 4 of those stats? (str, sta, agi, wis).Ignore the amount of power gained from int vs str and just assume its more equal then it currently is.</blockquote>Granted crusaders spells need a bump, as of right now I dont see the advatange of spells over CA for a melee.The only advanage of spells I can see is that you can cast them from a greater distance, but that is a non-factor for a primarily melee class.We cant dual weild and can use the wis/int stats (pally/sk) because we cast spells, but I at a loss at to why casting spells is better then just a having CA for a melee class..I think crusaders should retain their spell casiting abilities to differentiate themselves from the other fighters, but those spells need a bump up in power because, forcing us to rely on an extra stat and denying us DW, and being interpupted, doesnt hardly seem like an even trade off to be able to cast a spell at a slightly greatter distance then you can use a CA.

DMIstar

06-04-2008, 04:52 PM

The way this game is made. The More beneficial Stats there are, the more hindered we are. This is not like WoW, where each stat is catered to the classes, and you actually have decisions to pretty much make. Here we are competeing with classes that literaly have no problem, Getting 700-800 STR, STA, AGI... In the mean time for use to keep up we need that in STR, STA, AGI and INT. Since our DPS is nothing but an F'd up Splitting of the Regular melee's STR.Lets add this to, they refuse to make proper gear for us, other then Raid Line progression. and this is where we are. Now they are going to add more multi encounter groups to the game.. Which realy doesn't matter cause any SK in thier right mind Ditched the useless Trample AA in the AGI line that we have... So our numbers are not going to amazeingly show that we have DPS, still won't go back to it, considering The raid content is unchanged... But we can prolly further say to guards, We can kill trash better then you ... In which what is the dam point ? LoL

Razlath

06-04-2008, 06:29 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you are that poor you are better off saving your money. Not really, the +10 int would help, there is no denying that.Your argument is just as flawed as when you first posted it.Answer me this:How is not being able to use all the stats to decent benefit not an advantage to only being able to use 4 of those stats? (str, sta, agi, wis).Ignore the amount of power gained from int vs str and just assume its more equal then it currently is.</blockquote></blockquote>Actually yes I can deny that. The +10 int would not help enough to spend the last of your coin on it. If you are that strapped save the coin for a +10int and +10str item. Under your approach you would buy that item, and then turn around buy another crappy item. You would never have a decent item because you would constantly be buying crap instead of saving your coin.If you are so poor you have to buy crappy gear don't buy any gear, wait until you can afford decent gear.How is using more stats not a benefit? Simple, if you have 3 stats to aquire and I have 4 stats to aquire and we have the same number of slots to put them in you will always have more choices than I do. Your basic premise was that SKs have more options in gear than others which is still and always will be completely wrong. We (and any other class that needs more than 3 primary stats) have less options due to needing to cram more stats in the same space.Your final "rebuttal" above is based on ignoring the fundamentals of the mechanic and is thus null and void and not worth comment.

evilgamer

06-05-2008, 09:55 AM

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you are that poor you are better off saving your money. Not really, the +10 int would help, there is no denying that.Your argument is just as flawed as when you first posted it.Answer me this:How is not being able to use all the stats to decent benefit not an advantage to only being able to use 4 of those stats? (str, sta, agi, wis).Ignore the amount of power gained from int vs str and just assume its more equal then it currently is.</blockquote></blockquote>Actually yes I can deny that. The +10 int would not help enough to spend the last of your coin on it. If you are that strapped save the coin for a +10int and +10str item. Under your approach you would buy that item, and then turn around buy another crappy item. You would never have a decent item because you would constantly be buying crap instead of saving your coin.If you are so poor you have to buy crappy gear don't buy any gear, wait until you can afford decent gear.The +10 int item was just a hypothetical, if you want a different + stat, then say a +50 int or +50 str which at the lower levels will make a difference. Simply put you are better off buying the +50 int then having nothing in that slot.How is using more stats not a benefit? Simple, if you have 3 stats to aquire and I have 4 stats to aquire and we have the same number of slots to put them in you will always have more choices than I do. Your basic premise was that SKs have more options in gear than others which is still and always will be completely wrong. We (and any other class that needs more than 3 primary stats) have less options due to needing to cram more stats in the same space.How is being able to use 3 stats vs 4 less options? You keep saying *have* to acquire. You dont *have* to acquire squat. For my bruiser I generally used to acquire the +str, agi, sta MC armor at the appropriate level. Last level there wasnt any on the broker, so I just bought the +str, +agi dextorous stuff. Yeah my hitpoints suffered but my avoidence went way up six one, half a dozen the other.Same on my SK, at level 22 I bought him the +str, agi, sta MC plate, yeah his int wasnt as high as at level 32 with the devout +str, int, sta stuff, but he avoided more because his agi was higher. Your final "rebuttal" above is based on ignoring the fundamentals of the mechanic and is thus null and void and not worth comment..Well since you dont want to answer the question I will take it that yes indeed being able to get benefit from 4 stats does give you a bit more flexibility in choosing gear. Remember I am not talking about some min/max approach to making your toon as powerful as possible, just flexibility in gear choice.</blockquote>

Darkc

06-05-2008, 11:20 AM

In lower levels, yes you have a bit of flexibility. MC has received numerous revamps... lower level content has not. MC provides the mitigation + stats you need to tank any lower level instance encounter. Once you get to T8 though, sitting at 430 mit... compared to the 500+ you can get on legendary pieces, you're suck with the thats that on the Legendary / Fabled drops. As a t8 tank, you really don't want to "buy" any visible armor off the broker (with a few exceptions... like Dreadscale Greaves, some Sancification pieces, etc. if your luck is bad). Even then, you have to worry about buying adornments, Masters, potions, weapon imbues, mounts, etc. So trying to farm the stuff yourself unless see get a great deal, might be the better way to go.But ya, if you're not T8... customize however you want.

evilgamer

06-05-2008, 01:59 PM

<cite>Darkc wrote:</cite><blockquote>In lower levels, yes you have a bit of flexibility. MC has received numerous revamps... lower level content has not. MC provides the mitigation + stats you need to tank any lower level instance encounter. Once you get to T8 though, sitting at 430 mit... compared to the 500+ you can get on legendary pieces, you're suck with the thats that on the Legendary / Fabled drops. As a t8 tank, you really don't want to "buy" any visible armor off the broker (with a few exceptions... like Dreadscale Greaves, some Sancification pieces, etc. if your luck is bad). Even then, you have to worry about buying adornments, Masters, potions, weapon imbues, mounts, etc. So trying to farm the stuff yourself unless see get a great deal, might be the better way to go.But ya, if you're not T8... customize however you want. </blockquote>Yeah, I was mostly talking from the perspective a tier 5 sk. At these levels the MC is often better then the legendary stuff on the broker. All though I do buy legedary stuff because its generally alot cheaper then MC and with the same mit but slighly worse stats.I see your point that at T8 the legendary is actually much better then the MC but has crappy stats for crusaders and good stats for the warriors.Leveling up 4 stats are somewhat of an advantage (for instance I have been using those MC +int +mititgation books in my ranged slot as they are much cheaper then MC bows are), but not so much in tier 8.

AziBam

06-05-2008, 03:35 PM

Evil, here is the problem. You mentioned having STR, AGI, STA for your bruiser and you are set. Correct. You really don't need anything else. Let's make up an imaginary number for example that if your bruiser has 500 STR, 500 AGI, and 500 STA he is exactly where he needs to be to be for optimal performance. For your SK to be equally optimized you need 500 STR, 500 AGI, 500 STA, and also 500 INT. What others are trying to say is that it's not as if crusaders get more gear slots to make up for the extra 500 points they need to obtain. (Paladins actually have it worse than SKs in this department since they need WIS too...all I can say is thank god they switched our SK secondary stat from Wis to Int a long time back.)In my example above you need to find 1500 total stat points to optimize your bruiser but need 2000 to get your SK to the same level. Sure you can actually get benefit from an INT item that a bruiser gets nothing from but that doesn't change the fact that the crusader still needs more total stats just to be equal. Hence, gear options are harder choices for the crusader. We often have to decide where we get the most benefit or have the greatest need but in doing so have to sacrifice something else. The crusaders have a harder time balancing their gear choices since they have more stat requirements to meet. Btw, if you need MC gear you'd normally find better prices by getting the rares and finding a crafter to make what you need. That way you can also get the exact gear choices you want rather than depending upon random inventory from what is on the broker. All of the crafted armor from leather through plate has a STR, STA, AGI option for each tier.

Razlath

06-05-2008, 04:07 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you are that poor you are better off saving your money. Not really, the +10 int would help, there is no denying that.Your argument is just as flawed as when you first posted it.Answer me this:How is not being able to use all the stats to decent benefit not an advantage to only being able to use 4 of those stats? (str, sta, agi, wis).Ignore the amount of power gained from int vs str and just assume its more equal then it currently is.</blockquote></blockquote>Actually yes I can deny that. The +10 int would not help enough to spend the last of your coin on it. If you are that strapped save the coin for a +10int and +10str item. Under your approach you would buy that item, and then turn around buy another crappy item. You would never have a decent item because you would constantly be buying crap instead of saving your coin.If you are so poor you have to buy crappy gear don't buy any gear, wait until you can afford decent gear.The +10 int item was just a hypothetical, if you want a different + stat, then say a +50 int or +50 str which at the lower levels will make a difference. Simply put you are better off buying the +50 int then having nothing in that slot.How is using more stats not a benefit? Simple, if you have 3 stats to aquire and I have 4 stats to aquire and we have the same number of slots to put them in you will always have more choices than I do. Your basic premise was that SKs have more options in gear than others which is still and always will be completely wrong. We (and any other class that needs more than 3 primary stats) have less options due to needing to cram more stats in the same space.How is being able to use 3 stats vs 4 less options? You keep saying *have* to acquire. You dont *have* to acquire squat. For my bruiser I generally used to acquire the +str, agi, sta MC armor at the appropriate level. Last level there wasnt any on the broker, so I just bought the +str, +agi dextorous stuff. Yeah my hitpoints suffered but my avoidence went way up six one, half a dozen the other.Same on my SK, at level 22 I bought him the +str, agi, sta MC plate, yeah his int wasnt as high as at level 32 with the devout +str, int, sta stuff, but he avoided more because his agi was higher. Your final "rebuttal" above is based on ignoring the fundamentals of the mechanic and is thus null and void and not worth comment..Well since you dont want to answer the question I will take it that yes indeed being able to get benefit from 4 stats does give you a bit more flexibility in choosing gear. Remember I am not talking about some min/max approach to making your toon as powerful as possible, just flexibility in gear choice.</blockquote></blockquote>Learn to quote properly (instead of this stupid multi color BS that makes it impossible to actually tell who said what and respond properly) and I will gladly answer your questions. Instead you can't even follow your own multi colored BS as evidenced by you not even being able to determine that your last comment once again makes no sense. If you can not determine by now why having multiple stats is in no way an advantage then you are never going to. Please continue playing your SK and believing in your "advantage". Enjoy your subpar gear bought over and over to no real advantage. Your delusion doesn't hurt me at all and you are entitled to it. I am done with your foolishness and with trying to show you the error of your logic. You will either figure it out or not.The only way our multiple stats would be an advantage would be if STR and INT were valued at 60% to 75% of their values and added together to determine ALL CA and Spell damage (IE 50STR and 50INT yeilds an effective 60point stat that effects all combat arts and spells). Then we would start off a little weaker, but by bolstering both of our split stats we would end up on par or a hair better than other classes. Otherwise we need more pips in the same space, and that means we have less choices as our gear needs to have more pips to achieve the same effect. It really is that simple.

evilgamer

06-05-2008, 05:48 PM

<cite>AziBam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Evil, here is the problem. You mentioned having STR, AGI, STA for your bruiser and you are set. Correct. You really don't need anything else. Let's make up an imaginary number for example that if your bruiser has 500 STR, 500 AGI, and 500 STA he is exactly where he needs to be to be for optimal performance. For your SK to be equally optimized you need 500 STR, 500 AGI, 500 STA, and also 500 INT. But does a SK really need 500 str to be optimal given that most of our dps is Int orientated? Couldnt that same SK have say 350 STR, 500 AGI, 500 STA, and say 400 int and be pretty well off? What others are trying to say is that it's not as if crusaders get more gear slots to make up for the extra 500 points they need to obtain. (Paladins actually have it worse than SKs in this department since they need WIS too...all I can say is thank god they switched our SK secondary stat from Wis to Int a long time back.)In my example above you need to find 1500 total stat points to optimize your bruiser but need 2000 to get your SK to the same level. Sure you can actually get benefit from an INT item that a bruiser gets nothing from but that doesn't change the fact that the crusader still needs more total stats just to be equal. Is that really true? Is a warrior with 500 str really that much better off then a SK with say 350str and 400 int (a total of 750 in stats). I would bet a SK with 350str and 400 int would out DPS a guard, maybee a zerker with 500 str. Maybee not.Hence, gear options are harder choices for the crusader. We often have to decide where we get the most benefit or have the greatest need but in doing so have to sacrifice something else. The crusaders have a harder time balancing their gear choices since they have more stat requirements to meet. Btw, if you need MC gear you'd normally find better prices by getting the rares and finding a crafter to make what you need. That way you can also get the exact gear choices you want rather than depending upon random inventory from what is on the broker. All of the crafted armor from leather through plate has a STR, STA, AGI option for each tier.I am lazy, I buy armor for mitigation mostly, stats while nice are not nearly as important in my experiance as mitigation is. Now grated I wont buy that +str, int, wis stuff unless its really cheap, but as far as I am concerned both +str, int, sta and str, agi, sta work for the SK. However the Str, Int, Sta would not work so well for a warrior/brawler. Which is my basic point. A Sk has a bit mor flexibility then brawlers/warriors in choosing gear. Heck for a paladin they could use the +sta, wis, int, or the +str, agi, sta, or the +str, sta, int gear and benefit from all 3. Thats all I am saying more flexibility, not min/max performace evaluations.</blockquote>

evilgamer

06-05-2008, 05:58 PM

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Learn to quote properly (instead of this stupid multi color BS that makes it impossible to actually tell who said what and respond properly) and I will gladly answer your questions. Instead you can't even follow your own multi colored BS as evidenced by you not even being able to determine that your last comment once again makes no sense. I would if this board actually had a good quote function, but it doesnt.If you can not determine by now why having multiple stats is in no way an advantage then you are never going to. Please continue playing your SK and believing in your "advantage". Enjoy your subpar gear bought over and over to no real advantage. Your delusion doesn't hurt me at all and you are entitled to it. I am done with your foolishness and with trying to show you the error of your logic. You will either figure it out or not.Angry insults, now thats a good way to prove your point <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> Otherwise we need more pips in the same space, and that means we have less choices as our gear needs to have more pips to achieve the same effect. It really is that simple.Once again I am not talking about some min/max performance evaluation of gear. All I saying is that as a SK I can grab the str, agi, sta gear or the str, int, sta gear and see some benefit from both, a different kind of benefit, but a benefit none the less. My bruiser would be stupid to take str, int, sta gear over str, agi, sta gear. Thats all I am saying. To me the problem is that us using int and casting spells is a liablity compared the other classes that just use CA abilities. The only advantage to spells I can see is that you can cast them from a distance. But the for that we get abilities that can be interupted, cant dual weild, and cant be cast on the move and a secondary int stat?I personally tink crusaders spells need a buff, as the price we pay to have them often doesn add up to the reward imo</blockquote>

jagermonsta

06-05-2008, 06:16 PM

Wow... not sure why this is so hard for you to understand. It's pretty simple.1. Every classes goal is to get as close to their stat cap as possible.2. Warrior classes need only to worry about STR / STA / AGI (DPS, HP, Avoidance)3. Crusaders or more specific the Shadowknight needs to worry about STR / INT / STA / AGI.STR - Melee DPSINT - Spell DPS, Power PoolSTA - Hit PointsAGI - AvoidanceShadowknights primarily have spell based DPS abilities so that makes INT our #1 stat. It will increase DPS and gives us more power to cast the spells as often as possible.Shadowknights also have melee based DPS abilities, they also auto attack. We don't want this to lack in favor of INT to much otherwise we lose a part of our DPS.STA and AGI are self explanitory as should INT and STR....So realize this... In order to optimize the Shadowknight class you need to spread out equipment over FOUR stats. In attempt to do that you're going to end up with each of the four stats being significantly below their cap.In turn... Warrior classes whom only need to base their equipment over THREE stats are capable of reaching their stat caps.So what do we have here?Theoretically we have a warrior in defensive stance pushing 800* STR 800* STA 700* AGI and a Shadowknight in defensive stance pushing 600ish STR 550ish INT 700ish STA 400 AGI... That's a significant difference...How can you say that us having to base out our equipment over FOUR different stats is a good thing?

Razlath

06-05-2008, 06:29 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Learn to quote properly (instead of this stupid multi color BS that makes it impossible to actually tell who said what and respond properly) and I will gladly answer your questions. Instead you can't even follow your own multi colored BS as evidenced by you not even being able to determine that your last comment once again makes no sense. I would if this board actually had a good quote function, but it doesnt.If you can not determine by now why having multiple stats is in no way an advantage then you are never going to. Please continue playing your SK and believing in your "advantage". Enjoy your subpar gear bought over and over to no real advantage. Your delusion doesn't hurt me at all and you are entitled to it. I am done with your foolishness and with trying to show you the error of your logic. You will either figure it out or not.Angry insults, now thats a good way to prove your point <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> Otherwise we need more pips in the same space, and that means we have less choices as our gear needs to have more pips to achieve the same effect. It really is that simple.Once again I am not talking about some min/max performance evaluation of gear. All I saying is that as a SK I can grab the str, agi, sta gear or the str, int, sta gear and see some benefit from both, a different kind of benefit, but a benefit none the less. My bruiser would be stupid to take str, int, sta gear over str, agi, sta gear. Thats all I am saying. To me the problem is that us using int and casting spells is a liablity compared the other classes that just use CA abilities. The only advantage to spells I can see is that you can cast them from a distance. But the for that we get abilities that can be interupted, cant dual weild, and cant be cast on the move and a secondary int stat?I personally tink crusaders spells need a buff, as the price we pay to have them often doesn add up to the reward imo</blockquote></blockquote>The quote function works fine. Amazingly enough others have no problem using it, sounds like a personal issue to me. You hit the quote button and it puts the persons comments in a block at the top of the post. You can then trim out irrelvant information to your counterpoint. Then you click down at the bottom and make your counterpoint. If you can't respond to the post as a whole use the HTML button and break the quote block up. This puts your comments in their own space and allows for trimming of posts so they don't get too insane and makes sure any who read know who is saying what instead of it looking like a crayon eating child threw up on the screen.Notice how according to the quote function (which works fine) you said nothing at all. I am unable to trim this post because of that or it would be unclear who was saying what. This is entirely your doing, and no failing of the forum tools.And please don't put emotions on me. My comments towards you were not angry at all (and in fact are still not). To anger me you would actually have to have even a modicum of worth to me, and you lost the last shred of that you had with this thread. My point was made several posts before and you have failed to provide a valid counterpoint to that. You are never going to figure this out, and you seem happy with your misguided bliss, please feel free to enjoy it, but don't presume to know my emotional state. The chances are very good you will be wrong.Now feel free to state the exact same thing you have stated over and over again, fail to counter any of the points raised against your "assertion" and call it a day. Don't blame the forum tools for your incompetence and don't pretend to speak for me or my emotional state and I won't be forced to reply to you again.

Darkc

06-05-2008, 06:35 PM

I can understand how one can get a little confused, as a matter of fact many SKs have problems with this.1) Most items have 3 "skill stats" on them. There are exceptions, but for the most part thats how it is.2) To the 4 non Crusader fighters both their Auto Attack AND CA damage (and power pool) is based on Str. So... Fighter A increases Str by 50 and his Auto Attack AND CAs do more damage3) Crusaders have limited CAs and quite a few spells. Increasing Str boosts our CAs, but does nothing for our spells. Boosting INT increases our spell damage but does nothing for our CAs.4) Most Fighter Pieces have Str, Sta, Agi... With MC you CAN get mix and match Str, Sta, Agi, Int. In t8 there are pieces that also have Str, Int found in dungeons and raids BUT rarely will they have AGI. You're always short changed on something. Is it as bad as people make it seem? I don't think so, with my mostly group instance gear (yes, I have some t1 raid pieces now) I'm around 600 on both Str / INT. I have my Bertoxx Diety pet to boost INT, I carry +78 str potions, plus Drain might is usually up. Most groups I run about 800 / 800 on both, which is optimal. Problem is then my AGI is really low (like 400s)... Which you can somewhat offset if you have a Dirge, Brawler for his Avoidance buff, or a Shield Ally spec'd Priest.

AziBam

06-05-2008, 06:57 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>AziBam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Evil, here is the problem. You mentioned having STR, AGI, STA for your bruiser and you are set. Correct. You really don't need anything else. Let's make up an imaginary number for example that if your bruiser has 500 STR, 500 AGI, and 500 STA he is exactly where he needs to be to be for optimal performance. For your SK to be equally optimized you need 500 STR, 500 AGI, 500 STA, and also 500 INT. But does a SK really need 500 str to be optimal given that most of our dps is Int orientated? Couldnt that same SK have say 350 STR, 500 AGI, 500 STA, and say 400 int and be pretty well off? What others are trying to say is that it's not as if crusaders get more gear slots to make up for the extra 500 points they need to obtain. (Paladins actually have it worse than SKs in this department since they need WIS too...all I can say is thank god they switched our SK secondary stat from Wis to Int a long time back.)In my example above you need to find 1500 total stat points to optimize your bruiser but need 2000 to get your SK to the same level. Sure you can actually get benefit from an INT item that a bruiser gets nothing from but that doesn't change the fact that the crusader still needs more total stats just to be equal. Is that really true? Is a warrior with 500 str really that much better off then a SK with say 350str and 400 int (a total of 750 in stats). I would bet a SK with 350str and 400 int would out DPS a guard, maybee a zerker with 500 str. Maybee not.Hence, gear options are harder choices for the crusader. We often have to decide where we get the most benefit or have the greatest need but in doing so have to sacrifice something else. The crusaders have a harder time balancing their gear choices since they have more stat requirements to meet. Btw, if you need MC gear you'd normally find better prices by getting the rares and finding a crafter to make what you need. That way you can also get the exact gear choices you want rather than depending upon random inventory from what is on the broker. All of the crafted armor from leather through plate has a STR, STA, AGI option for each tier.I am lazy, I buy armor for mitigation mostly, stats while nice are not nearly as important in my experiance as mitigation is. Now grated I wont buy that +str, int, wis stuff unless its really cheap, but as far as I am concerned both +str, int, sta and str, agi, sta work for the SK. However the Str, Int, Sta would not work so well for a warrior/brawler. Which is my basic point. A Sk has a bit mor flexibility then brawlers/warriors in choosing gear. Heck for a paladin they could use the +sta, wis, int, or the +str, agi, sta, or the +str, sta, int gear and benefit from all 3. Thats all I am saying more flexibility, not min/max performace evaluations.</blockquote> Well, I had a big reply but then had to go away for a bit and now see that several others have posted. Darkc's last post hit the high points of what I was going to say anyway.The only other thing I'll mention is that I'm in the process of rolling a guard. (Mostly to see what the hubbub is all about but also to be able to have a first hand experience to see the differences between a warrior class and the SK.) I find it much easier to gear the guard since I only have to focus on STR, STA, AGI and not worry about anything else. Edit: LOL at myself. I messed up the quote format. /smacks head Ironic that I've never had trouble before but this now happens on the heels of the above comments from other posters. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>

evilgamer

06-05-2008, 09:41 PM

<cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow... not sure why this is so hard for you to understand. It's pretty simple.1. Every classes goal is to get as close to their stat cap as possible.2. Warrior classes need only to worry about STR / STA / AGI (DPS, HP, Avoidance)3. Crusaders or more specific the Shadowknight needs to worry about STR / INT / STA / AGI.STR - Melee DPSINT - Spell DPS, Power PoolSTA - Hit PointsAGI - AvoidanceShadowknights primarily have spell based DPS abilities so that makes INT our #1 stat. It will increase DPS and gives us more power to cast the spells as often as possible.Shadowknights also have melee based DPS abilities, they also auto attack. We don't want this to lack in favor of INT to much otherwise we lose a part of our DPS.STA and AGI are self explanitory as should INT and STR....So realize this... In order to optimize the Shadowknight class you need to spread out equipment over FOUR stats. In attempt to do that you're going to end up with each of the four stats being significantly below their cap.In turn... Warrior classes whom only need to base their equipment over THREE stats are capable of reaching their stat caps.So what do we have here?Theoretically we have a warrior in defensive stance pushing 800* STR 800* STA 700* AGI and a Shadowknight in defensive stance pushing 600ish STR 550ish INT 700ish STA 400 AGI... That's a significant difference...How can you say that us having to base out our equipment over FOUR different stats is a good thing?</blockquote>I think some of you are missing my point. I am not argueing min/max dps tanking efficency stuff. Just more flexability in choosing gear.For example:My SK could use either of these two items to good benefit.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1267080482" target="_blank">http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1267080482</a>or <a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-434910866" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-434910866</a>A warrior however can only use the stats on the bow.On my server at certain tiers the tomes (which also give a + vs crushing, slashing, piercing that does not show up those webpages) sell for half of what the bows do.So I gave my SK the tomes instead of bows and saved myself some money. A warrior would be silly to buy the tome because the +int does abosluely nothing for them.That is all I am saying.

rabid.pooh

06-05-2008, 10:10 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>*snip*</blockquote>I think some of you are missing my point. I am not argueing min/max dps tanking efficency stuff. Just more flexability in choosing gear.For example:My SK could use either of these two items to good benefit.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1267080482" target="_blank">http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1267080482</a>or <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-434910866" target="_blank">http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-434910866</a>A warrior however can only use the stats on the bow.On my server at certain tiers the tomes (which also give a + vs crushing, slashing, piercing that does not show up those webpages) sell for half of what the bows do.So I gave my SK the tomes instead of bows and saved myself some money. A warrior would be silly to buy the tome because the +int does abosluely nothing for them.That is all I am saying.</blockquote>Use a bow instead of the tombs, when you go to pull cast whatever spell your going to pull with (i use coil or despoil, Some will use wrath but it snares the mob and will tick off people in your group because it takes to long for the mob to get to you <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). On the pull hit your bow autoattack as your spell is casting, once the spell is done the bow shoots and you just got an extra 500+ hate <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, and then of course cast your next spell/taunt hehe.- Rocket Robin Smash

Finist

06-06-2008, 12:45 AM

It only seems like it's easier in the short run at a quick glance. But when you look closer your worse off in the short run and your really going to have a harder time equipping on a budget. Put it this way, I have a 55 templar and my little 33 SK. With the templar looking for gear my primary concern was +wis and +sta, anything else was just icing on the cake to help me solo a lil faster if I ever had to solo. On a budget it is much easier to find gear that only has a specific 2 stat combination like wis and sta then it is to find something that has a 4 stat combination like sta str int and agi. So while even on a budget I could get my two main stats taken care of no sweat I find it impossible to do so outfitting my sk, on her I have to decide how I'm going to [Removed for Content] myself. Sadly right now she is gimped on agi. Granted while having to choose how to [Removed for Content] your character is yet one additional choice to make with an sk it's a choice I'd rather not have to make. And to top it off when your buying inexpensive gear it's almost always caster heavy or melee heavy. So while looking for something that has a nice +int on it most items I find also have a heavy +wis on it instead of something more usefull. As an growing sk shopping on a budget I'd much rather only have two or three stats to have to focus on instead four.

evilgamer

06-06-2008, 02:45 AM

<cite>Finistra wrote:</cite><blockquote>It only seems like it's easier in the short run at a quick glance. But when you look closer your worse off in the short run and your really going to have a harder time equipping on a budget. Put it this way, I have a 55 templar and my little 33 SK. With the templar looking for gear my primary concern was +wis and +sta, anything else was just icing on the cake to help me solo a lil faster if I ever had to solo. On a budget it is much easier to find gear that only has a specific 2 stat combination like wis and sta then it is to find something that has a 4 stat combination like sta str int and agi. So while even on a budget I could get my two main stats taken care of no sweat I find it impossible to do so outfitting my sk, on her I have to decide how I'm going to [Removed for Content] myself. Sadly right now she is gimped on agi. Granted while having to choose how to [Removed for Content] your character is yet one additional choice to make with an sk it's a choice I'd rather not have to make. And to top it off when your buying inexpensive gear it's almost always caster heavy or melee heavy. So while looking for something that has a nice +int on it most items I find also have a heavy +wis on it instead of something more usefull. As an growing sk shopping on a budget I'd much rather only have two or three stats to have to focus on instead four.</blockquote>I guess I take a different approach then most as I just take whatever gives the most, + sta, int, str, agi and dont worry about the rest.Right now my SK agi is a bit low, but I am not really gonna focus on it. Granted if I have choice between + agi or int given everything else being a bit low, I will take the agi , but I wouldnt pass up say a +20str, +10 int item for a +20 agi item, as the +10int +20str as 10 more "useful" stats.But that is just me.Obviously things like haste and mitigation > all.

evilgamer

06-06-2008, 02:48 AM

<cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>*snip*</blockquote>I think some of you are missing my point. I am not argueing min/max dps tanking efficency stuff. Just more flexability in choosing gear.For example:My SK could use either of these two items to good benefit.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1267080482" target="_blank">http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1267080482</a>or <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-434910866" target="_blank">http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-434910866</a>A warrior however can only use the stats on the bow.On my server at certain tiers the tomes (which also give a + vs crushing, slashing, piercing that does not show up those webpages) sell for half of what the bows do.So I gave my SK the tomes instead of bows and saved myself some money. A warrior would be silly to buy the tome because the +int does abosluely nothing for them.That is all I am saying.</blockquote>Use a bow instead of the tombs, when you go to pull cast whatever spell your going to pull with (i use coil or despoil, Some will use wrath but it snares the mob and will tick off people in your group because it takes to long for the mob to get to you <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />. On the pull hit your bow autoattack as your spell is casting, once the spell is done the bow shoots and you just got an extra 500+ hate <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15">, and then of course cast your next spell/taunt hehe.- Rocket Robin Smash</blockquote>Ok will do that, I usually pull with my pet because its cast time is so freaking long. It get interputed much more then the faster casting stuff with the mob beating on you.I usually ward myself, then go pet, then siphon str, then the taunt resist defuff and the wis debuff, then I start using my +disase damage spells once their wis and disease mit is reduced.Throwing in the HO, stun, and lifetap as needed. I usallly ward myself by using a knockdown then refresh my ward.

Finist

06-06-2008, 05:07 AM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess I take a different approach then most as I just take whatever gives the most, + sta, int, str, agi and dont worry about the rest.Right now my SK agi is a bit low, but I am not really gonna focus on it. Granted if I have choice between + agi or int given everything else being a bit low, I will take the agi , but I wouldnt pass up say a +20str, +10 int item for a +20 agi item, as the +10int +20str as 10 more "useful" stats.But that is just me.Obviously things like haste and mitigation > all.</blockquote>I admire your optimism, but you actually just made my point. Look at it this way, according to what you just said if sk's had only 3 primary stats and they were sta str and int then all three of your primary stats would be good. But instead your saying that one of your four primary stats, agi is a little low. I buy what I can as well and since worrying about it doesn't do much good I try not to, but in the end having all of your primary stats at a decent level is better then having one of them a little low, not only is it better for you, it's also better for those grouping with you.

AziBam

06-06-2008, 09:42 AM

Well this has become a bit silly. If the premise is that an SK will get SOME benefit from more items than another class you might be accurate. That doesn't make it good or easier to actually get the right gear though. I can wear all cloth armor if I want but that doesn't make it a good choice. I can look for high MIT armor with nothing but WIS on it in the hopes my resists will be higher but that won't make me hold aggro better. Plain and simple we need to balance 4 stats to as high a level as possible vs 3 stats for brawlers and warriors. This need makes our gear choices harder not easier.GL with whatever choices you make Evilgamer.

evilgamer

06-06-2008, 09:47 AM

<cite>Finistra wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess I take a different approach then most as I just take whatever gives the most, + sta, int, str, agi and dont worry about the rest.Right now my SK agi is a bit low, but I am not really gonna focus on it. Granted if I have choice between + agi or int given everything else being a bit low, I will take the agi , but I wouldnt pass up say a +20str, +10 int item for a +20 agi item, as the +10int +20str as 10 more "useful" stats.But that is just me.Obviously things like haste and mitigation > all.</blockquote>I admire your optimism, but you actually just made my point. Look at it this way, according to what you just said if sk's had only 3 primary stats and they were sta str and int then all three of your primary stats would be good. But instead your saying that one of your four primary stats, agi is a little low. I buy what I can as well and since worrying about it doesn't do much good I try not to, but in the end having all of your primary stats at a decent level is better then having one of them a little low, not only is it better for you, it's also better for those grouping with you.</blockquote>I will grant you that, sometimes I wonder if the ability to cast spells is really worth it, having to rely on 4 stats instead of 3, not being able to DW and being subject to interuption.My bruiser can heal and buff himself to with this CA and they cast much quicker and can not be interupted. Heck I even speced my inquistor to turn some of his spells into combat abilitiesThe only real advantage I can see as to being a spell casiting tank is that you can cast your spell form a distance vs a CA you have to be on top of the mob. But for a class that must be in auto attack range to do any dps or tanking I dont know if that is all that great of an advantage.

evilgamer

06-06-2008, 09:59 AM

<cite>AziBam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well this has become a bit silly. If the premise is that an SK will get SOME benefit from more items than another class you might be accurate. That doesn't make it good or easier to actually get the right gear though. I can wear all cloth armor if I want but that doesn't make it a good choice. I can look for high MIT armor with nothing but WIS on it in the hopes my resists will be higher but that won't make me hold aggro better. Plain and simple we need to balance 4 stats to as high a level as possible vs 3 stats for brawlers and warriors. This need makes our gear choices harder not easier.GL with whatever choices you make Evilgamer.</blockquote>Well the cloth armor analogy is also a bit silly anyone who chooses stats over mititgation on a tanking toon is crazy. Granted if you are in a raiding guild and never tank, maybee. Quite frankly I really dont worry to much about stats I mostly focus on my mitigation and effects like haste, power regen etc.I always tank in the defensive stance and in my opinion if people keep snatching aggro from me, that is their fault. I taunt as much as possible and try my best to keep aggro, if they cant wait 3 seconds before they cast that massive nuke or CA, then they deserve to get whacked on.SK's do bring some useful utilities that warriors do not get. I was tanking last night and warlock AOE'ed and aggroed a whole bunch of mobs. I FD a party member and it saved us from having to go all the way back thru the dungeon to the named mob.

jagermonsta

06-06-2008, 01:54 PM

I see. Pretty silly.So you're happy we benefit from the fact we get more choices when it comes to choosing equipment although in the end this conglomeration of equipment hurts our ability to reach stat caps. Hmm...

evilgamer

06-06-2008, 02:12 PM

<cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see. Pretty silly.So you're happy we benefit from the fact we get more choices when it comes to choosing equipment although in the end this conglomeration of equipment hurts our ability to reach stat caps. Hmm...</blockquote>I never said I was *happy* about it, just that it gives us a few more options, thats it.Sure it would be nice to cap every stat, but is that 100% necessary. Mitigation and effects like haste seem more important to me.And I would fully support a re-evaluation as to how spell/melee damage, avoidence and power pools are affected by having to balance 4 stats instead of 3.Personally I think both crusaders spells need an upgrade. I can not see how the ability to cast spells is an advanatage over CA. And why this ability to cast spells necessitates a reliance on an additonal stat (int), lack of dual weild, and subject to interupts.I guess the fact that if I am grouped with another tank I can ward them and brawlers/warriors cant./Shrug.

baddog

06-06-2008, 08:58 PM

dev notes : SK12847c3class should have crappy avoidance . The higher avoidance, the less proc triggers .Otoh , class should also have the highest Mit multiplier in the game to make it work .Crusader classes are at a disadvantage . It costs more time to cast , another skill to master (focus) , and another spec to max (int)spells should have MAGE type damage to make up for it .DoTs should do way more.DoTs suck for snap agro (Taunt over time is a joke) , even AoEs are DoTs (mezzer luv there) , and AoE classes just love all the unlinked high attrib social mobs ... (not)

evilgamer

06-06-2008, 11:19 PM

<cite>baddog wrote:</cite><blockquote>dev notes : SK12847c3class should have crappy avoidance . The higher avoidance, the less proc triggers .Otoh , class should also have the highest Mit multiplier in the game to make it work .Crusader classes are at a disadvantage . It costs more time to cast , another skill to master (focus) , and another spec to max (int)spells should have MAGE type damage to make up for it .DoTs should do way more.DoTs suck for snap agro (Taunt over time is a joke) , even AoEs are DoTs (mezzer luv there) , and AoE classes just love all the unlinked high attrib social mobs ... (not)</blockquote>Yeah I personally think that the problem with SK's is that our spells just suck compared to CA.My bruiser can freaking punch for a [Removed for Content] load of damage with no interuptions and almost instant cast time. My SK can cast a spell that does good damage but take forever to get off and can be interupted.And for this he cant dual wield and must rely on the additional int stat.I dont see the trade off. Because crusader cant dual wield and their spells are subject to interuption their spells should be much better then warrior/bruiser CA.But guess what? They are not. In fact their spells almost suck compared to warrior/bruiser CA.The thing in EQ 1 was that crusaders (knights) could not dual weild and had lower melee skill caps, however their spell casting abilities made up for it. In EQ 2 spell casting and combat abilities have seemed to have blurred. No freaking melee, except the hybrids (sk, paladin, bard) could buff themselves in EQ 1 without special gear, like everyone can in EQ2 Crusader spells need a serious boost imo.

Giral

06-07-2008, 03:06 PM

the sad thing is the developers think becuase we need 4 Stats that all 4 Stats should be equal to a peice of gear that has only 3 stats , when for Sk's all 4 stats should be higher then a pice with only 3 stats , or 3 out of the 4 should be higher at the least example you have a Warrior BP that has +40 Str , +45 STa , +40 Agi and a SK BP that has +30 Str, +35 Sta, +20 Agil, +40 Intel you add them up and we both get a total of +125 and the Sk is behind on every stat except Intel and the intell isnt the magic Key to the SK class. if Intell also added to our Agility/Str and Stamina then Sure the devs could make gear with Less stats be equal, but thats pretty lame to make Intell help all those area's , Instead Sk's gear should have More All around stats to make up the differance in neededing 4 stats and needing Spell And CA damage So the BP for Sk's Should be : +65 STR , +40 STA , +45 agil,+60 Intell , this isnt equal to the Warrior BP as it SHould Not Be, we Need 4 Stats they only need 3 , side by side the Sk gear would look like Sk's are getting alot more, but you cant balance a class with 4 stats gear , to a class that only needs 3 stats , so the gear for SK's needs to give More all around stats in everything. We are not Warrior's and you cant balance our Gear by total Number +125 split into 3 stats for them, and 4 stats for SK's, we will Fall short Everytime on 2 or 3 of the stats , but Meh.... i dont plan on them being able to understand this lol ... it's just to simple!