Dev Question - Are You Going To Fix The SK Class? [Archive]

Obadiah

05-29-2008, 09:06 PM

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just to let you know, "calling out" the develpers generally doesn't get you a development answer (as stated in the forum guidelines). Constructive posts with information pertaining to the exact issues that are percieved sometimes do, though.~Gnobrin!</blockquote>Ironically though, this is the 3rd post I've seen in the last few weeks where the title "called out" developers and they've replied. Yet constructive posts with precise details net me no answer as to whether the designers are aware that abilities with exactly the same description function completely differently. For [completely random, of course] example:Juggernaut: Reduces mitigation, defense, parry. Grants +27% melee crit, +damage to all CAsDescription: This ability can only be used while berserk!Duration: 24 secBehavior: You must be Berserk to use it. If you become NOT berserk while the spell is active, it remains active for the full 24 seconds.Adrenaline: Prevents 50% of all damage, then drains roughly half your power pool.Description: Adrenaline can only be used while berserk!Duration: 32 sec (at Master 1)Behavior: You must be Berserk to use it. If you become NOT berserk while the spell is active, it stops providing 50% damage prevention, but there's no indication to the player that it has dropped and the icon remains in your Spell Effects window and once the full duration has expired you still take the full power drain. One of these abilities is broken. I've been told everything from "It's supposed to drop off if your berserk drops" to "It doesn't drop off if your berserk drops." But ... it DOES ... and it SHOULDN'T. So I humbly beg [again] for a fix.Although Shaydu worded it better. More concisely, less sarcastically....I don't play a Zerker, although I have a mid-50's Guard sitting around somewhere. So I'm a bit dim on the specifics here. LMK if I've got this right:Both abilities have precisely the same description. But...<ul><li>If your Berzerk ability is up and you use Juggernaut, it stays up for its full duration even if Berzerk drops.</li><li>If your Berzerk ability is up and you use Adrenaline, it drops when Berzerk drops.</li></ul>On top of that, the player doesn't even *know* Adrenaline has dropped because there's still an icon in the active spells window until the full duration of Adrenaline ends.Am I right? If so, something's wrong there, and stuff. <div align="right"> </div>Clearly it's me. Developers must hate gnomes.Sorry to derail the SK thread. My suggestion would be to take Reinforcement and Tower of Stone from Guardians and give them to Shadowknights. I wouldn't be very popular in Guardianland. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Jerma

05-29-2008, 09:09 PM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also starting new threads every other day on the same topic doesn't help either. It spreads the information out into many more topics that are harder to follow and respond to. A consolidated thread where everyone can contribute to the conversation is really the way to go. Larger threads get more attention too.</blockquote>Its because of comments like this that Im about to quit EQ2 entirely. There has been some of the best constructive posts about the problems with the shadowknight here on these forums. All this statement tells me is you dont take the time to read them. It only takes all of 5 minutes to see what the problems are. Over and over again the best constructive feedback Ive seen about any class is ignored. Honestly how hard is it to say, "Yes we are aware of the problems and are looking into ways of fixing it." Or you could even say, "The class is functioning as it should be." Either of those statements would satisfy the majority of us. However we get nothing other then this stuff over and over. If you (SOE Dev/Programming Team) spent as much time looking into problems with the game as you do telling people to stop posting things you dont like, this game would be amazing. Here is a thought, try fixing the problems or simply address the community about it. Too Easy

Ocello

05-29-2008, 09:09 PM

I mean, I understand it's in the forum guidelines and all, but the OP wasn't out of line. He wasn't rude or suggestive, he is merely frustrated. When he sees a class that is without a doubt the most broken class on the game getting passed over while you fix classes like Rangers and Coercers he has a right to be a little frustrated. He pays the same amount to play every month as everyone else does, I believe. And I would guarantee there are more people playing SKs than coercers. And it would be close against the Ranger class too, at least for new players coming in who don't know of the problems. Rangers and Coercers were still very much wanted on raids. Rangers could always DPS well, regardless of the munition problem. And coercers were still making the MT group before the fix (last time I checked).So why is the SK getting passed over? And why did we have two devs have the nerve to stop by and give us the finger-wag over calling attention to the thread? It is not a hard or an undeserved question. And this thread could be used as the "consolidated" thread." I mean he posted links to other SK's ideas for how to change things. And he gets trashed by two guys who could possibly have a say (or at least an opinion) in the matter over something as weak as "calling out" the devs. Calling out is what they do on EQ2Flames, and I agree it is absolutely ridiculous. This is a serious post asking for a serious answer, not a demanding or a harassing post.Just a little help is all we ask for :0(

Pitt Hammerfi

05-29-2008, 09:27 PM

My mind boggles, it's really not that hard to fix sk'sjust pick 5 of our skills, any 5, and increase the stats

Tiberuis

05-29-2008, 09:45 PM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also starting new threads every other day on the same topic doesn't help either. It spreads the information out into many more topics that are harder to follow and respond to. A consolidated thread where everyone can contribute to the conversation is really the way to go. Larger threads get more attention too.</blockquote>With all due respect Rothgar, I posted the "consolidated thread." It is titled "What Do Raiding SK's Need?" The OP is DarkC. The other posts I listed are simply organized and extended versions of DarkC's thread, itemized for you by category. If you actually took the time to read them, you would know this.DarkC spent a lot of time organizing and consolidating these threads by category for your review, to help organize the process. Almost our entire SK forum community has worked hard to contribute to these threads constructively. There is a ton of solid info, feedback, and research in the referenced thread topics. Rather than waste your time and energy criticizing the process, why don't you just answer the question? A simple yes or no would be sufficient.Are you going to fix the SK class?

DMIstar

05-29-2008, 09:49 PM

Rothgar

05-29-2008, 10:13 PM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Rather than waste your time and energy criticizing the process, why don't you just answer the question? A simple yes or no would be sufficient.Are you going to fix the SK class? </blockquote>No, I wont be fixing the SK class. This is because I'm a programmer, not the designer in charge of class balance. Keep in mind that just because we have a red name doesn't mean we do anything and everything related to EQ2. Like many other companies out there, we have specific job duties. I could spend a lot of time reading the class forums, but it's not near as important for my job as reading the Technical Support forums and General Gameplay forums so I can fix coding bugs.I scan topics when they make the recent list and try to respond when I think I have something to add or a point to make. Recently there seem to be several topics that continue to spawn new threads and I simply wanted to point out that creating new threads often fragments the information rather than consolidating it.

erimus

05-29-2008, 10:23 PM

Tiberuis

05-29-2008, 10:33 PM

Colcos

05-29-2008, 10:41 PM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Rather than waste your time and energy criticizing the process, why don't you just answer the question? A simple yes or no would be sufficient.Are you going to fix the SK class? </blockquote>No, I wont be fixing the SK class. This is because I'm a programmer, not the designer in charge of class balance. Keep in mind that just because we have a red name doesn't mean we do anything and everything related to EQ2. Like many other companies out there, we have specific job duties. I could spend a lot of time reading the class forums, but it's not near as important for my job as reading the Technical Support forums and General Gameplay forums so I can fix coding bugs.I scan topics when they make the recent list and try to respond when I think I have something to add or a point to make. Recently there seem to be several topics that continue to spawn new threads and I simply wanted to point out that creating new threads often fragments the information rather than consolidating it.</blockquote> Okay, no offense to you whatsoever Rothgar, although I don't need help understanding the bureaucratic way that most businesses are run. However, It seems interesting to me that the programming developer is the one posting in the class forums (although your input is very much welcome) and the developer(s) that actually deal with these sorts of issues are nowhere to be found. Shouldn't those developers roam these forums on a consistent basis. Perhaps the argument could be made that they DO view these forums quite often, yet choose not to post because they would rater not deal with the community. That strategy is fine, I don't mind the lack of developer communication. The fact is, Shadow knight's have not received ANY positive changes for as long as I can remember. I remember them taking away the "Strength" portion of our raid buff. I remember them breaking some of our in game mechanics such as the accidental nerf to Despoil. Yet the people in charge of balancing the classes, have either very much overlooked that world of shadow knight's, or have been working on it for FAR to long without so much as a hint. Excuse me for any hostility, I'm just concerned about the future of this class, as our numbers have diminished greatly with the release of AoC and other outside factors that have given people a reason to throw in the proverbial towel.

DMIstar

05-29-2008, 11:20 PM

"Recently there seem to be several topics that continue to spawn new threads and I simply wanted to point out that creating new threads often fragments the information rather than consolidating it."Don't get me wrong, I can agree with this in many cases ... My Problem is simple... Take a look at where the other discussed threads have gone since time has passed... They are deep into the numbers and are pretty much long and forgotten... Bumping them would be against the rules and would only get them locked. And unlike in EQ boards we don't have an SK rep that can sit there and de sticky the old topics and sticky up these discussed topics... The concerns for this class are truly valid and haveing them fall by the wayside so to say, is not the solution at all for this class. I encourage any red name opinions on stuff generally, but in this case, right now, any of them that are not class related is nothing more then fuel to the fire.Sad thing is, I can quote all the prev red name responses made in this forum and it would realy show how bad things realy are...

Soefje

05-30-2008, 12:11 AM

A dev posting is not unheard of either. Take a look at the tradeskill forum and see how a dev interacts with the community. I would daresay that the tradeskill community is happier than they every have been and they feel listened to.All we are asking for is a simple statement on the future of the SK class.

Hamervelder

05-30-2008, 03:36 AM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would like to post the following question to the Devs, on the behalf of the SK Community :Are You Going To Fix The SK Class?For evidence of our obvious class imbalance issues, please reference the SK Forum Threads titled as follows :"What Do Raiding SK's Need?" OP by DarkC. This thread was brought to your (Dev's) attention by the forum moderator Gnorbrin."SK Raiding Ideas : Defense", OP by DarkC."SK Raiding Ideas : DPS", OP by DarkC."SK Raiding Ideas : Utility", OP by DarkC."SK Raiding Ideas : AA ' s", OP by DarkC."SK Raiding Ideas : Itemization", OP by DarkC.As you can see by the hundreds of posts on the SK forums, our community has been extremely frustrated with your lack of pro-active customer care on this issue for a very, very long time.It is SO obvious that the SK class is not balanced with the other plate tank classes, it is absolutely ridiculous.Please post an answer the question above. A simple yes or no would be sufficient. Thank-you.</blockquote>If I may add my two cents: We SK players may get more response from the developers if we talk about the class as a whole, and not about raiding. How many of the topics that you referenced pertain to the class as a whole? Not one. That's six different topics dealing strictly with raiding, which is a very, very small portion of this game. Raiders make up a very small portion of the population, I think we all can agree on that fact. That in mind, it probably gets a bit .... cumbersome .... for the developers to hear raiders complaining about their chosen class. For such a small percentage of the population, raiders do alot of complaining, and maybe repeated posts about raiding come across as noise from the small minority. If the folks over at EQ2flames are indicative of the raiding popuation of EQ2 -- and the folks over there seem to think that they are -- then it's no wonder the developers don't seem to pay much attention. I'm not making any accusations, I'm just saying that maybe taking a different direction would behoove us as a class more. To be clear, I believe that the shadowknight class is unbalanced as a whole. Not just raiders. From the lowest levels of the game, across all playstyles, shadowknights are unbalanced and decidedly weaker than the other three plate tanks. Perhaps addressing the class's needs as a whole would garner more attention than raid, raid, raid, and more raid.

GoldSpider

05-30-2008, 10:22 AM

I don't think anyone is asking an almost certainly very busy developer to spend time on these boards discussing class mechanics and how they are coded. But what is lacking here is consistent communication with any kind of customer liaison who can summarize what issues the team is aware of, and any changes to class mechanics that are being considered.I'm coming back from 2 years of World of Warcraft. Now I'm not going to suggest that Blizzard's customer service (on the forums at least) has been stellar, but they will at least post a list of known issues. Perhaps I missed such a thread in the other board categories, but I haven't seen any indication that the design/development team is aware of ANY issues, perceived or real, with the SK class.A little more communication is all we're asking for.

Tiberuis

05-30-2008, 10:39 AM

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>If I may add my two cents: We SK players may get more response from the developers if we talk about the class as a whole, and not about raiding. How many of the topics that you referenced pertain to the class as a whole? Not one. That's six different topics dealing strictly with raiding, which is a very, very small portion of this game. Raiders make up a very small portion of the population, I think we all can agree on that fact. That in mind, it probably gets a bit .... cumbersome .... for the developers to hear raiders complaining about their chosen class. For such a small percentage of the population, raiders do alot of complaining, and maybe repeated posts about raiding come across as noise from the small minority. If the folks over at EQ2flames are indicative of the raiding popuation of EQ2 -- and the folks over there seem to think that they are -- then it's no wonder the developers don't seem to pay much attention. I'm not making any accusations, I'm just saying that maybe taking a different direction would behoove us as a class more. To be clear, I believe that the shadowknight class is unbalanced as a whole. Not just raiders. From the lowest levels of the game, across all playstyles, shadowknights are unbalanced and decidedly weaker than the other three plate tanks. Perhaps addressing the class's needs as a whole would garner more attention than raid, raid, raid, and more raid.</blockquote></blockquote>The SK class is NOT balanced vs. the other plate tank classes. However, due to the ROK game content, this fact does not become as obvious until an SK tackles the game's high-end content. When an SK attempts to tank, or DPS on a raid, due to the nature of the more difficult content, this fact becomes crystal clear. That is why the raiders are more vocal about the class imbalance. It is really glaringly obvious in a raid environment, at times to the point of embarrassment.Perhaps Aeralik could make an appearance and answer our question."Are you going to fix the SK class?"

Razlath

05-30-2008, 12:05 PM

The tradeskill community receives frequent communication from Domino based on things working as intended, future changes coming up etc. Now, admittedly she has one board to watch while a class dev has 24. But can we get just a simple working as intended or looking into it post from a dev that can truly answer the question.No particulars, no promises, just an update on the status of our class. So far all we have to go on is a comment made during an allakhazam dev chat that was honestly a vague answer to a vague question. That comment seems to imply the devs are happy with the state of all classes as they stand, and only minor tweaks will be implemented.If this is case, can we just get someone with the authority to comment to say so? We just need to know whether to keep gathering information / suggestions, or whether you have all that you want / need. We are all taking time out of our playtime and our lives to gather this information and discuss these suggestions at Gnobrin's request. If it is not going to be reviewed (or they have enough to do their review) I don't believe it is too much to ask for the dev's to say so.Let us all get back to playing the game as either our SKs hoping for change, or as our Alts.

Dasein

05-30-2008, 12:41 PM

Lovelessangel

05-30-2008, 01:28 PM

After all this time, it's obvious they are not interested in making shadowknights viable. Give up.I rerolled a dirge and I'm enjoying the good life. While dirge's aren't overpowered, actually being INVITED to raids and treated as an equal amongst the player community is something I never experienced as a shadowknight. Kept me from quiting the game (Though, I did start playing WoW again. EQ2's development team is rather oblivious to the players needs, and to their own class balancing.) There are 22 other working, happy and fun classes out there guys. Just give the shadowknight thing up. And avoid bruiser =)

Tiberuis

05-30-2008, 03:06 PM

You are absolutely correct. I want to give the Dev's a chance to do the right thing here. I have invested so much time in my SK, I really just want my toon to be balanced with the other plate tank classes. It it not much to ask. And let's face it, this class is so out of balance that it is dead obvious.If they post up that the SK is working as intended, I'm going to play AOC for a while. Mabey I'll come back in a year or two, but at that point, with the SK class so gimped, I would definately re-roll. Sounds like most of this community will follow suit. Why stick around to play a game where broken classes stay totally neglected for such an unacceptable long period of time? It's a sure recipie for dissapointment.So I continue to ask the Class Design Dev's...Are you going to fix the SK class?

Path

05-30-2008, 03:24 PM

Giving smart [Removed for Content] comments probably wont have the programmers/designers/devs/mods looking your way there Tiber.Also, you deserved the smart comment back from Rothgar. Smart [Removed for Content] comments deserve smart [Removed for Content] answers. (gg Roth btw)as they said, make informative posts, be quick and and to the point, but try to give them as much as possible without repeating over and over "Fix SK's" WHAT do you want them to fix about SK's, WHY should they take the time to fix SK's, HOW could they fix SK's... all these questions should be answered in your post, and then they might actually give it a go and see what they can do, and also give you an informative post back!-Path

GoldSpider

05-30-2008, 03:40 PM

<cite>Path@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>WHAT do you want them to fix about SK's, WHY should they take the time to fix SK's, HOW could they fix SK's... all these questions should be answered in your post, and then they might actually give it a go and see what they can do, and also give you an informative post back!</blockquote>That seems to be one of the ongoing problems here; that information has already been compiled numerous times in this forum, and (apparently) subsequently ignored by the SOE reps.We have numerous customers who feel they are being ignored, and the best SOE can respond with is "Stop complaining".

Path

05-30-2008, 03:53 PM

Try being a Guardian then? On a PvP Server? /shrug maybe you wouldn't complain as much.Maybe SOE does not see a need to bump up the SK's because of some mathematical scheme that they have going on, maybe they won't bump up the SK's because their a mage/melee/healer/tank all put into one, maybe they don't want to bump SK's because if they did, they'd be outdoing everyone and get on the wrong rung of the totem pole that EQ2 has laid out./sighI just wish people weren't so greedy. Or hell, maybe I should be more greedy.GIVE GUARDIANS HEALS IN '08!

GoldSpider

05-30-2008, 04:05 PM

<cite>Path@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maybe SOE does not see a need to bump up the SK's because of some mathematical scheme that they have going on, maybe they won't bump up the SK's because their a mage/melee/healer/tank all put into one, maybe they don't want to bump SK's because if they did, they'd be outdoing everyone and get on the wrong rung of the totem pole that EQ2 has laid out.</blockquote>In that case, a simple "Working as intended" reply from SOE would satisfy a lot of folks around here. We can't even get that.

Pitt Hammerfi

05-30-2008, 04:40 PM

<cite>Path@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>Try being a Guardian then? On a PvP Server? /shrug maybe you wouldn't complain as much.Maybe SOE does not see a need to bump up the SK's because of some mathematical scheme that they have going on, maybe they won't bump up the SK's because their a mage/melee/healer/tank all put into one, maybe they don't want to bump SK's because if they did, they'd be outdoing everyone and get on the wrong rung of the totem pole that EQ2 has laid out./sighI just wish people weren't so greedy. Or hell, maybe I should be more greedy.GIVE GUARDIANS HEALS IN '08!</blockquote>seriously dude, punch yourself in the face 8 times

Path

05-30-2008, 04:45 PM

<cite>Pitt Hammerfist wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Path@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>Try being a Guardian then? On a PvP Server? /shrug maybe you wouldn't complain as much.Maybe SOE does not see a need to bump up the SK's because of some mathematical scheme that they have going on, maybe they won't bump up the SK's because their a mage/melee/healer/tank all put into one, maybe they don't want to bump SK's because if they did, they'd be outdoing everyone and get on the wrong rung of the totem pole that EQ2 has laid out./sighI just wish people weren't so greedy. Or hell, maybe I should be more greedy.GIVE GUARDIANS HEALS IN '08!</blockquote>seriously dude, punch yourself in the face 8 times</blockquote>Sorry, I'm a TANK. I get punched in the face daily. Least I'll be able to absorb all the 8 punches with stoneskin and tower of stone, and still have 1 punch to go!<3

BMonkeeus

05-30-2008, 05:08 PM

Nothing better to do then troll forums Path?

Uggli

05-30-2008, 05:11 PM

Path, living proof that guardians clearly do not pursue the INT stat.

Tiberuis

05-30-2008, 05:28 PM

Of course you can relate to the SK class imbalance, Path. Guardians obviously have such underpowered tanking and aggro abilities. And that 5K zonewide DPS, who could live with that? It's not like raid guilds would ever want a Guardian to MT or OT.How will you ever get your Mythical?/ignore troll [Removed for Content]

Path

05-30-2008, 06:00 PM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Of course you can relate to the SK class imbalance, Path. Guardians obviously have such underpowered tanking and aggro abilities. And that 5K zonewide DPS, who could live with that? It's not like raid guilds would ever want a Guardian to MT or OT.How will you ever get your Mythical?/ignore troll [Removed for Content]</blockquote>Yes, of course I can. People say how unbalanced every class is. The sooner you realize the role of your class, the better. Guardians are suppose to take a hittin and keep on tickin, zerkers are suppose to mash them buttons and tear a mob to pieces, Bruiser/Monks are suppose to dip n dodge like ninja style, and SK's and suppose to do w/e yall do, never played a pally/sk.How will I ever get my mythical? I'd like you to tell me that too Tiber as I play on Vox (Not naggy) and only 2 guilds are in VP, both Exiles. One of the guilds split up, and the members have left the game. And I have no intention on exiling. So you tell me how I will get my mythical? The hard way. Low Pop servers with more PvP than PvE are full of win eh?And duh, when have Guardians NOT been MT or OT? It's been that way since server launch. You think it's changed recently because of T8? I /laugh at you.It's apparent that we have someone who just goes WAY out of his way to complain about everything and anything that he can. You can call me a troll if you please there Tiber, but telling the truth... hardly trolling.Oh and BTW.. 5K? lol, maybe 4 at the most. I've haven't seen a parse from a guardian doing 5 yet, if there is one i'd love to meet em and know their trick.

Path

05-30-2008, 06:04 PM

<cite>BMonkeeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nothing better to do then troll forums Path? </blockquote>I <3 you. I'm at work with about 45 minutes left to goooo

BMonkeeus

05-30-2008, 06:11 PM

<cite>Path@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Of course you can relate to the SK class imbalance, Path. Guardians obviously have such underpowered tanking and aggro abilities. And that 5K zonewide DPS, who could live with that? It's not like raid guilds would ever want a Guardian to MT or OT.How will you ever get your Mythical?/ignore troll [Removed for Content]</blockquote>and SK's and suppose to do w/e yall do, never played a pally/sk....hardly trolling.</blockquote>What's your definition of trolling? You clearly contribute nothing to this thread.

Path

05-30-2008, 06:20 PM

And your last two posts have? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Practice what ya preach there brother <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I have given this to Tiber: When making an original thread, be concise, to the point, and get that point across quickly and clearly! < There I said the same things twice in two different ways. He's also gotten from me to make a nice collection of information to show why... Screw it, i'm not gonna repeat what I said like, 3 posts ago. Go back and read, least I WAS trying to be helpful. You just made an Ogre go Troll <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Tiberuis

05-30-2008, 09:19 PM

<cite>Path@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>And your last two posts have? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> Practice what ya preach there brother <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15">I have given this to Tiber: When making an original thread, be concise, to the point, and get that point across quickly and clearly! < There I said the same things twice in two different ways. He's also gotten from me to make a nice collection of information to show why... Screw it, i'm not gonna repeat what I said like, 3 posts ago. Go back and read, least I WAS trying to be helpful. You just made an Ogre go Troll <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></blockquote>This thread is for SK's to express thier support and feedback for a specific Dev question.You openly admit that you have never played an SK. You have absolutely nothing to contribute here. Please go troll somewhere else.

Obadiah

05-30-2008, 11:02 PM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Path@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>And your last two posts have? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> Practice what ya preach there brother <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15">I have given this to Tiber: When making an original thread, be concise, to the point, and get that point across quickly and clearly! < There I said the same things twice in two different ways. He's also gotten from me to make a nice collection of information to show why... Screw it, i'm not gonna repeat what I said like, 3 posts ago. Go back and read, least I WAS trying to be helpful. You just made an Ogre go Troll <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></blockquote>This thread is for SK's to express thier support and feedback for a specific Dev question.You openly admit that you have never played an SK. You have absolutely nothing to contribute here. Please go troll somewhere else. </blockquote>Hey come on, dude. Where's the love? I've never played an SK either, but I can recognize the imbalance and openly express my support as well. I still say taking Reinforce and ToS away from Guards and giving them both to SKs would be a nice start.

Tiberuis

05-31-2008, 12:18 AM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Path@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>And your last two posts have? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> Practice what ya preach there brother <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15">I have given this to Tiber: When making an original thread, be concise, to the point, and get that point across quickly and clearly! < There I said the same things twice in two different ways. He's also gotten from me to make a nice collection of information to show why... Screw it, i'm not gonna repeat what I said like, 3 posts ago. Go back and read, least I WAS trying to be helpful. You just made an Ogre go Troll <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></blockquote>This thread is for SK's to express thier support and feedback for a specific Dev question.You openly admit that you have never played an SK. You have absolutely nothing to contribute here. Please go troll somewhere else. </blockquote>Hey come on, dude. Where's the love? I've never played an SK either, but I can recognize the imbalance and openly express my support as well. I still say taking Reinforce and ToS away from Guards and giving them both to SKs would be a nice start. </blockquote>Most SK's would not want to take anything away from another class. The Shadowknight is a very interesting class design concept, just seriously underpowered vs. the other plate tank classes once you hit ROK content. I really still believe that we are out of balance with the other plate tank classes only because ther has not been a Dev with the time on his/her hands to fix the class. Too many other "priorities."BTW there is nothing wrong with the Guardian class IMHO. Guardians tank uber, just like an MT should, and thier DPS output is excellent. Perfect class to MT or OT a raid mob. Anyways, thanks for the nice word, and show of support to balance our class <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

BoneSmasher

05-31-2008, 09:54 AM

Let's be honest, here. The only tank class that is not complaining right now about class balance is us. The Guardians. I think SONY finally got us right. The problem is that they have not gotten the other tank classes right, in my opinion.Every tank in the game should at the very least be a candidate for the OT role in any tier, and possibly the MT in some circumstances. Not every tank class is going to be able to be the MT for different reasons and the guardian was built for it from the ground up.I think one possible solution to helping out the other tank classes would be to modify their AA specs to allow greater focus on some aspect. For instance, Berserkers should be able to create a defensive specced tank more in line with the MT role via their EoF tree.SK and Pallys definately need some help. SKs should be able to do a lot more DPS in the right group set up on raids. And since they are part necro, should probably be able to res as well like a necro. I think that the AA lines should be modified for SK and Pally to allow Pallys to spec for more DPS and SKs to spec for greater defensive skills. Maybe some AA abilities that give them the equivilent of ToS in some other way.I think every plate class should get Recapture like guardians do. That is an awesome OT spell.I do think that Deathmarch should be raid wide, but available via AA speccing.I just think a lot could be done with the difference tank classes by tweaking the AA lines for crusaders and brawlers in the base line and for berserkers and the other non guardians in the EoF tree.Give more distinct flavor to the tank classes and more freedom to spec for the end game raid roles.I think that would be easier for the Devs to do and less impactful on the base classes.That is just my opinion of course.

Hamervelder

05-31-2008, 10:22 AM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>If I may add my two cents: We SK players may get more response from the developers if we talk about the class as a whole, and not about raiding. How many of the topics that you referenced pertain to the class as a whole? Not one. That's six different topics dealing strictly with raiding, which is a very, very small portion of this game. Raiders make up a very small portion of the population, I think we all can agree on that fact. That in mind, it probably gets a bit .... cumbersome .... for the developers to hear raiders complaining about their chosen class. For such a small percentage of the population, raiders do alot of complaining, and maybe repeated posts about raiding come across as noise from the small minority. If the folks over at EQ2flames are indicative of the raiding popuation of EQ2 -- and the folks over there seem to think that they are -- then it's no wonder the developers don't seem to pay much attention. I'm not making any accusations, I'm just saying that maybe taking a different direction would behoove us as a class more. To be clear, I believe that the shadowknight class is unbalanced as a whole. Not just raiders. From the lowest levels of the game, across all playstyles, shadowknights are unbalanced and decidedly weaker than the other three plate tanks. Perhaps addressing the class's needs as a whole would garner more attention than raid, raid, raid, and more raid.</blockquote></blockquote>The SK class is NOT balanced vs. the other plate tank classes. However, due to the ROK game content, this fact does not become as obvious until an SK tackles the game's high-end content. When an SK attempts to tank, or DPS on a raid, due to the nature of the more difficult content, this fact becomes crystal clear. That is why the raiders are more vocal about the class imbalance. It is really glaringly obvious in a raid environment, at times to the point of embarrassment.Perhaps Aeralik could make an appearance and answer our question."Are you going to fix the SK class?" </blockquote>The fact that SK's are not balanced vs other plate tanks is not in question. I agree with you. However, one does not have to raid RoK content, or even raid at all, to see that SK's are a weak class. SK's need help across all areas of playstyles -- from solo, to small group, to full group, to raid. That said, I'm very fearful of what may happen if and when the developers do decide to "fix" SK's. The last time they gave us "raid utility", they took away our strength buff. It goes without saying that every single person who plays a shadowknight and does not raid, lost some of their utility and ability, for the sake of the very few who raid. If I have to choose between a class that's weak across the board, but still manageable, or a class that's good at raiding but loses any amount of our solo/group benefit, I'll choose the former.

Margen

05-31-2008, 10:26 AM

<cite>Brand@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's be honest, here. The only tank class that is not complaining right now about class balance is us. The Guardians. I think SONY finally got us right. The problem is that they have not gotten the other tank classes right, in my opinion.Every tank in the game should at the very least be a candidate for the OT role in any tier, and possibly the MT in some circumstances. Not every tank class is going to be able to be the MT for different reasons and the guardian was built for it from the ground up.I think one possible solution to helping out the other tank classes would be to modify their AA specs to allow greater focus on some aspect. For instance, Berserkers should be able to create a defensive specced tank more in line with the MT role via their EoF tree.SK and Pallys definately need some help. SKs should be able to do a lot more DPS in the right group set up on raids. And since they are part necro, should probably be able to res as well like a necro. I think that the AA lines should be modified for SK and Pally to allow Pallys to spec for more DPS and SKs to spec for greater defensive skills. Maybe some AA abilities that give them the equivilent of ToS in some other way.I think every plate class should get Recapture like guardians do. That is an awesome OT spell.I do think that Deathmarch should be raid wide, but available via AA speccing.I just think a lot could be done with the difference tank classes by tweaking the AA lines for crusaders and brawlers in the base line and for berserkers and the other non guardians in the EoF tree.Give more distinct flavor to the tank classes and more freedom to spec for the end game raid roles.I think that would be easier for the Devs to do and less impactful on the base classes.That is just my opinion of course.</blockquote>While I don't agree with all your ideas Brand, I do compliment you on posting a intelligent response vs Path's response which to be blunt where just post to stir up anger.I don't think we should get rez myself, thats in the paladins relm and they should keep that. But the problem is that Paladins 'special" spell rez has use in a raid enviorment while ours evac has zero use. I agree there should be fights that are tailored for each of the tank classes (and when I mean fights I mean a good number vs one or two an expansion), and to be honest our tools for OT are lacking at this time. Our two so called snap agro tools are either too old (death march) or way too weak (death touch), plus we have the weakest surviability of all the plate tanks against epic mobs. Think the problem is that Guradians can fill both roles as MT or OT with out any problems and have the best surviabilty and put our very good dps, this leaves the rest of the tank classes in a major hole for raids.Guardians should be the best at takig hits of all the tanks, think most SKs agree with this. But the problem is that at this time we are not the best at any aspect of being a fighter. We have the worst avoidance of any of the tanks, lowest hps, last in agro and second to last in dps (excluding undead fights I can beat Paladins at least, but their agro control tools are much better then ours). We don't want to be the best in all aspects of being a fighter, but we would like to be best or at least competing for best in at least one aspect (snap agro, dps, suviability, heck even utility might be in the works), but right now we are last in all. Thats why you see so much frustration at this time about our class.Again thanks for an intelligent comment vs the standard "if you want to be a tank roll a guardian" which causes all the other fighter to grind their teeth and spit fire.

HentaiB

05-31-2008, 12:23 PM

Phelon_Skellhound

05-31-2008, 02:40 PM

There is a classic saying among the SK community..... "We are a jack of all trades, master of none." Since RoK it has never become more apparent then the release of this expansion. Agro management, dps, managing spike damage, stances, so on and so on..... I don't want the same abilities of or nerf to any other tank classes. I am going to have to disagree on some things that have been said though. First, improving raid utility will improve group/solo content. Second, removal of the str from our buff did not make us so much a "weaker" solo/group tank. (I would recomend making a new thread for solo/group content then and see if the same things won't be on our raid thread.) Third PvP is its own monster and mechanics for this kind of play will be treated seperately as it always had.. improvements for PvE vs PvP will not be the same... I am sure of this.. Look to our 2 Mythical variations as proof.We didn't get weaker we just became less improved... all other classes got that much better (huge improvements) in the amount of damage they dealt and agro they generate making it all that much harder to manage. Do I want an easy button like amends??? Hmmm... sweet jeebus yes!!! But I'll pass... If I wanted to be a pally... I'd betray and never will I do that.The list of flaws is huge, our solutions/suggestions are given. We cry out, we get the standard response allowed by policy... we get the standard no communication from the appropiate folks in charge.. and the cycle continues round and round... Since the betral system has been put into place have I seen so many SK's betray, retire, shelf for an alt or just plain out quit the game... I beleive the fun facter for playing an SK is great... Another classic saying about the SK is that we are "Fun to be, hard to play." That fun factor though... drops and drops hard when one realizes their role in a raid though... not needed... unwanted... no real utility that makes us needed or wanted... being shifted around cuz a class is better suited in group x cuz they provide more to the group than we can... "You can debuff...great anything else??? No... sorry you can earn dkp while at the door while we kill the named" I can tank instances... higher lvl ones a bit of chalenge atm... OT/MA in raids when the other warrior class can't log in...But i must admit kudos for SoH though... that raid zone makes a SK feel wanted/needed when it comes the sisters and Master P fight...

Tiberuis

05-31-2008, 04:33 PM

<cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is a classic saying among the SK community..... "We are a jack of all trades, master of none." Since RoK it has never become more apparent then the release of this expansion... ...fun factor though... drops and drops hard when one realizes their role in a raid though... not needed... unwanted... no real utility that makes us needed or wanted... being shifted around cuz a class is better suited in group x cuz they provide more to the group than we can... "You can debuff...great anything else??? No... sorry you can earn dkp while at the door while we kill the named" </blockquote>I looked at my little Sony EQ2 booklet that came with the game. I can't find the part that says "you will not be able to Tank or DPS as well as the other plate tank classes." I also can't find the part that says "roll another plate tank if you want to have a better chance at raiding...'cos they are better at Tanking and DPS that Shadowknights."6+ months since ROK was launched...and the Dev's have still not done anything to balance our class with the other plate tank classes. It is extremely frustrating.

Giral

05-31-2008, 10:49 PM

lowest Hp's of tanks lowest aviodance of tanks tuant over time Spells long cast times easy to interuptSplit betwen 1/2 spell and 1/2 Ca no method to slow incoming damage must be in offensive stance and dps gear to do any decent dps horrible dps and agro in defensive stance def gear, and def stance is a joke it does nothing to make an Sk survive longer lifetaps seriously underpowered VS Raid mobs/Names (and Not great Vs Group mobs in ROK) Damage shield seriously underpowered Vs Raid mobs/Names (and not great Vs Mobs in group zones in ROK) AE Attacks/Lifetaps/DOTS all are Junk in rok since 90 % of the gamplay is Single Target , and even on 2 or 3 targets its still underpowered no great group buffs(Deathmarch for 10 seconds is dismal in ROK and underpowered )no great utility, and 1 Good debuff Death Touch is a Joke it should be called Death Tickle in ROK etc etc etc ... Can we see where Sk's have Issue's ? Shadpwknights Get Nothing to make up for everything they have to overcome . we Have the Lowest HP ,, so shouldnt we be the Best at Taking damage to make up for the lowest HP ? we Use Tuant over time so shouldn't we have the best agro in the game mid way thru a fight to make up for the time it takes to build agro ? we use spells/ca's/dots for DPS so since it takes a wyle to get our dps going, shouldn't are DPS be the best out of plate tanks on Mid-long fights ? Fixes : Almost all our spells should be instant casts OR we should have very little chance of getting interupted All of our Dots should deal Upfront damage,increase damage with each tick,and deal large damage on termination<-- since we use DPS for Hate and dots take time to build hate our taunts should deal Upfront hate,increased hate with each tick,and large Hate on termination <--to make up for the time it takes to Build agro our Lifetaps/Damage shield should increase VS Epic mobs <--this would help us VS raid mobs so we arent the hardest Plate tank to heal VS Raid mobs DeathMarch should last for 15 seconds(10 seconds is nothing) and proc off Anydeath in a raid and Never Not procDeath Touch needs to have its damage increased to do 20 to 25 k our defensive stance should have a Hate Mod it that gives 2 points hate for 1 point dps we do, our dps is horrible in Def stance def gear and our agro is even worse then our dps in def stanceetc etc.. so many ways they can tweak Sk's current abilities to even out Sk's to other tank's.Take a Hint from some of the Recent Gear that has just come into game ..Equal +Spell AND +CA damage on Items , this is the solution that is needed for SK's ALL around for Dev's to realize Sk's need a Little extra to make up for the Method SK's use to Tank/DPS/Generate AGRO ... the Gear is a Good start ,,,, Now Go over our skills and AA"s and see how we always fall behind becuase of the way our class functions ..... (What do Raiding SK's need is a good place to Start ) Sk's should be Equal in survivability with Paladins, Dps JUST Under zerkers, and have equal Agro to Guardians, currently Sk's are Last in Agro, Last in DPS and Last in survivability ... balanced lol, not even in the same Ball park

Tiberuis

05-31-2008, 11:16 PM

That was one well informed, comprehensive, excellent post Giralus!I /agree with your post.It is obvious that you have a very strong understanding of the SK class, it's current (unbalanced) place in the game, and where it should be. And not to ask for the same class design features as Warriors, but I really can live without Taunt Over Time - not sure why SK's got suckered with that useless ability to begin with. I salute you sir.BRILLIANT!

Giral

06-01-2008, 03:16 PM

Sk's delt with broken(truely broken) skills from release until DOf and combat revamp with DOF when it first came out for about 1 month Sk's had very good agro (finaly) and then about a month in they changed our tuants to Over time, since then SK's have had Agro issue's up until about 3/4 of the way thru KOS when they changed Deathmarch . it is believed they changed us to tuant over time becuase Vanguard was suppose to have a shadowknight type class that used tuant overtime.(this was back when vanguard was in a believe closed beta) deathmarch is Underpowered in ROK, of that there is no question, but again, one skill should not negate our Tuants and our DPS for agro , our Tuants and DPS + deathmarch should all work together, we shouldn't have to rely on 1 skill. taking other fighters Agro capabilities of grabing instant agro > will always be better then a Fighter who needs Time to build agro , when you have 5 other tanks you can Immediatly start DPS'ing with who wants to sit around waiting for 1 tank class to try and build it.when is it built? does he have agro locked yet ? can i dps yet ? this is what DPS classes are thinking when a SK is MT , there is no way to know when its locked, no way to gauge when its ok to open with the big hits , so why would anyone want to waste there time sitting watching 1 tank build agro ? they dont and have 5 other options of tanks they dont have to Wait or Control there DPS as much with.Dev's almost Never say they made a Bad decision, its obvious in a Game where Speed and DPS > ALL else that anything that Slows people down or Lowers there DPS is a Very very bad thing. will they change Tuant over time ? IMO Never but again there is No reason they cant Make Tuant over time a usefull ability by allowing Sk's to build more and more hate thru a fight to the point that sk's would have built the More agro then any other tank from there tuants Over time, <-- and this is where Tuant over time Fails, SK's and there Group/Raid do not get anything for having to control dps alot more initialy, and thru out the fight, becuase Sk's normaly have a Hard time getting agro back once its lost, we cant cast and move, we only have 2 single target and 1 ae tuant, and as soon as Agro is lost we arent able to do much to start getting back up the Hate tree, they could give SK's a 2nd AE tuant , so we would have 2 single target and 2 Ae tuants,Ae tuant should be Out of encounter so it hits Anything within range to help pick up adds when Ot'ing. they could also give us an AE Deathtouch ability , instead of increasing DT, they could give us AreaDeath hits all mobs in Area for 15 K on a 10 minute timer, so we would have a Single target DT and a Multi-target DT , since all we have for AE eoncouters to snap agro is Deathmarch and that is a fart in the wind compared to a Paladin with Amends on a Warlock .... Survivability they can just add a 2nd charge to Bloodletter, it initialy had 3 charges in Beta(and people cried Nerf and it was, but that was befor Actual Game play VS Raid names in ROK and it was nerfed in beta ) the Devs actualy HAd Bloodletter Correct in Beta becuase they knew ROk mobs hit Hard and SK's have hardest time with Spike damage but the they jumped the gun and nerfed it early ..... many more ways to increase survivability see "what do raiding SK's need"thread ( and also sk's that dont raid need love as well) DPS <---see "what do raiding Sk's need"thread ... DPS to me is what has totaly screwed up the balance of this game, Furies that do great DPS , inquisitors that can push out ok dps, Guardians doing 2nd best DPS of fighters, etc..etc,.... Sk's no doubt should be doing near equal dps to a Zerker with chances to outparse them, Sk's are a DPS tank and need DPS for help with Agro/tuant overtime... not going to write an essay about it as there are sk's that have detailed posts on how to fix sk's dps.anyway sadly i also have played an Sk from release, and have never stopped playing him, have raided thru t-5,t-6.t-7.and now t-8. and its just gotten old always having to make up for soe's lack of interest in the class, we have been able in the past to overcome our deficencies and fualts with the design of the class and make Well played SK's be a force in Eq2, in ROk there just is no way to squeeze anything more from the stone, after all is said and done in ROK< SK;s are Last place as Plate tank Last place in Agro for plate tank, and 2nd to last in DPS for Plate tank and thats after countless hours of endgame SK's doing everything possible with the class, when all is said and done SK"s are Last place once again as a PLate tank and im just tired of having to prove my class is worthy after doing it for 4 years strait on a daily basis , and now i cannot prove that i am equal, becuase i am not no matter what i do its impossible with the way Sk's function and the methods they use , Our bag of tricks has been all used up. and we are left wanting . we need Help. Fix Sk's in 2008 , becuase i also have lost interest in playing the game . P.s dont want to be Re-vamped, want our Current skills and abilities Aa's brought up to an Equal playing field with the Other Plate Tanks.

Hamervelder

06-03-2008, 02:41 AM

Death March doesn't even really work at 80. DPS classes can pull agro right through it now. So even our one saving grace in EoF is gone.

rabid.pooh

06-03-2008, 04:57 PM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Rather than waste your time and energy criticizing the process, why don't you just answer the question? A simple yes or no would be sufficient.Are you going to fix the SK class? </blockquote>No, I wont be fixing the SK class. This is because I'm a programmer, not the designer in charge of class balance. Keep in mind that just because we have a red name doesn't mean we do anything and everything related to EQ2. Like many other companies out there, we have specific job duties. I could spend a lot of time reading the class forums, but it's not near as important for my job as reading the Technical Support forums and General Gameplay forums so I can fix coding bugs.I scan topics when they make the recent list and try to respond when I think I have something to add or a point to make. Recently there seem to be several topics that continue to spawn new threads and I simply wanted to point out that creating new threads often fragments the information rather than consolidating it.</blockquote>The information has been displayed in the groups in everyway imaginable to date, sperate threads for each issue, consoldated threads, etc. The only thing the SK community hasn't done is stand on it's head while receighting the pledge of allegiance in Klingon, which is exactly what they would do if someone on the dev team had suggested it.These disscussion on the issues with the SK have been going on for months and months, thread after thread. All the information is here from focused anaylsis of offesnive, deffensive abilites to the broad brush stroke issues. You can really get a feel for what is wrong with the class in little under a half an hour of reading these forums. Or if the devs had any question they could simply ask in a post. I imagine it comes down to simple anaylisis of numbers on some spreadsheet somewhere if (x) class isn't the least played class in the game, then the class must be fine and wait for whatever it takes is for (x) class to become the least played class before any issues will be recognized.Sks are not looking for the <kill Epic now> button, they're looking for the <Viable alternative to other tanks without making the healers work harder, or without that brig/wizzy ganking agro and dieing every 2 secs button>. Personally I believe that the Class designer does read our forum, even though in three years hasn't made his presence seen with one post, I just can't see someone who's job it is to balance the game ignoring the SK community entirely. I mean whenever a Dev Posts every thing is completely disected and the entire community rips on ehm, so under those conditions I would be apprehensive about making my presence known too <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I also believe the the class designer cares about SKs and the game in general, and because of this I believe the class designer simply doesn't see any issue with our class and believes it to be balanced, this has been going on for such a long time really it's the only conclusion one can come to.

Dracosy

06-04-2008, 12:22 PM

there is one sure fire way to get them to listen.....stop buying thier product! No more LoN cards! No more exspansions! let your voices be heard! "You want my money?!? Make my class playable! until then, not gonna buy diddly squat from you. Sincerly The Angry Shadowknight" bet ya if everyone let them know that SK's would be fix with in a week

Lovelessangel

06-04-2008, 12:58 PM

They are a buisness after all. Fixing shadowknights isn't profitable to them I guess.

Tiberuis

06-09-2008, 09:05 PM

<cite>Lovelessangel wrote:</cite><blockquote>They are a buisness after all. Fixing shadowknights isn't profitable to them I guess.</blockquote>I respectfully disagree. Fixing the most broken class in the game would be a gesture of genuine customer care to the EQ2 populace. Most folks play SK's as an ALT class - if they fixed the class to be balanced with the other plate tanks, folks would play the game more levelling up that now uber ALT. Perhaps the SK would be played as a Main on more and more servers - more tanks around to tackle more group zones and instances.Fixing something that is obviously broken would reinforce and restore many players faith in this game. And that equals more happy customers - especially important when SOE is trying to get folks to return to the game, and try the game out in the Legacy campaign.So give it a try, SOE. Fix this broken class. Make a bunch of folks happy. Bring some warm and fuzzies to your player base. Attract some more players. Generate some more revenue. Simple concept, yes?

Phank

06-09-2008, 11:04 PM

<blockquote>I would like to post the following question to the Devs, on the behalf of the SK Community :Are You Going To Fix The SK Class?</blockquote>I recently asked one of the Devs point blank if they are aware of the Shadowknight concerns. Here is the reply I rec'd:As far as I know it is on the radar, yes. I cant really say much other then that.

Phelon_Skellhound

06-12-2008, 07:22 PM

If only if they (he/she?) would have only said that much here... it would have at least kept half the sk's now gone or retired here a little longer i think

nirate

06-13-2008, 03:12 AM

<cite>Excuse me for the late rant, but I didn't want to start a new thread about it. </cite><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Rather than waste your time and energy criticizing the process, why don't you just answer the question? A simple yes or no would be sufficient.Are you going to fix the SK class? </blockquote>No, I wont be fixing the SK class. This is because I'm a programmer, not the designer in charge of class balance. Keep in mind that just because we have a red name doesn't mean we do anything and everything related to EQ2. Like many other companies out there, we have specific job duties. I could spend a lot of time reading the class forums, but it's not near as important for my job as reading the Technical Support forums and General Gameplay forums so I can fix coding bugs.I scan topics when they make the recent list and try to respond when I think I have something to add or a point to make. Recently there seem to be several topics that continue to spawn new threads and I simply wanted to point out that creating new threads often fragments the information rather than consolidating it.</blockquote>Rothgar and Gnorbin: Time and time again we have been told you do not balance classes. Knowing this why is it that both of you have said nothing to the point of actualy getting someone involved that can make a change to the SK class. Rothgar you yourself said that we need to collect in a single thread all of the problems and provide feedback as to what shoould be changed, not create multiple threads. The reason you see multiple threads is because one will become 5 pages long with good ideas and constructive feedback and we see no responce from ANY ONE. Thus a new thread is created. Now rather than indirectly insulting everyone that has actualy tried to get a devs attention by critisizing our efforts to have our class brought to speed with the rest of the fighters, maybe you could point "the designer in charge of class balance" in this direction. Now so far we have seen one class, the coercer class, get the major revamp it needed. So where is the said "designer in charge of class balance"? I have seen no word from him/her here or anywhere since the coercer fix. Where is this developer now? People are quitting EQ2 because of the LACK of developer contact with this classes comunity. Generaly for a company that is the business of making money, losing customers is bad.Now again I fully understand you two are not in charge of making the changes we are asking for, so again I ask, go and get the one that is responsible and alert him/her that the SK class as a whole IS NOT SATISFIED!

Grimfort

06-13-2008, 06:31 AM

<cite>Dracosy wrote:</cite><blockquote>there is one sure fire way to get them to listen.....stop buying thier product!</blockquote>Well, thats what I have done. My account is now cancelled. I can no longer play a class that is not viable vs anyone solable other than a tank in pvp (and only with stoneskin), can not keep agro in a group pvp, can not dps anymore than a melee specced warden (*sigh*) and has no chance on getting on a raid on a pvp server. It is just not fun.With help from guild I finally got my epic sword and can finally hold agro in pve and with good gear have tanked all group instances. Without sword it was always difficult, so SOE did do something right then. Shame I had to wait 80 levels to get the only weapon in the game to allow me to do so. The next stage of raiding and pvp are just not viable for me. There are few SKs who have managed to make it work, but pickup groups, alliance-raids etc etc make it next to impossible. Unless you are in a solid group where your actually given exactly the right buffs in the exactly the right scenario your role can be replaced with someone better. The sad thing is, even if you had the perfect setup, you can still be swapped out for either tank and they will still do as good a job. Nearly 2 year old lvl 80 SK and transmutter along with an 80 alchemist now sitting on the shelf, I could not bare levelling another class in an ever-shrinking pvp population.So long friends.

Tiberuis

06-13-2008, 02:00 PM

Are you going to fix the SK class?Simple question. No answer.And SOE wonders why they are losing players?Surely it cannot be that difficult for a class design Dev to stop by these forums, and aknowledge the question. Most of us would be satisfied with a "working as intended" post, if that were the case. At least it would clear up the issue of completely ignoring the feedback of the SK community, and let us know where we stand. /sigh

Razlath

06-13-2008, 02:15 PM

I think the only answer we are likely to get is going to come in game when / if they decide to patch us. Sadly by that point many of the great resources for the class that post in this forum will be gone.We will then be reduced to the blind leading the blind which is a whole other kind of gimping. Hopefully those who are leaving will keep an eye out for updates and once the class is able to be played as their main again will come back.I would settle for some form of statement on what role we are supposed to be filling. The SK community seems to have radically different ideas, and thus often we are pulling in completely different ways. If SoE would just tell us our role then the intelligent people in these threads could get some unity and start asking for the same things. Sadly as long as it is confusing whether we are MT, OT, spell cast buff, DPS in plate, spell caster in plate, AoE Kings, hate manipulators, off healers, or sacrificial lambs we have no way to know what to ask for.When I as a raid leader look at my ShadowKnight I don't know what to tell myself I am supposed to do. When I look at my Brigand it is clear, when I look at my Inquisitor it is clear. When I evaluate the rest of my guild members (the non SK ones at least) I know what they are supposed to do in a raid. I honestly have no clue what role the SK is supposed to fill on a raid. I can read these forums and get several different answers. We need a clear purpose, and we need our abilities adjusted to fill that purpose. If our purpose is not to MT raids (and it seems like it is not), but to be premiere spell cast group buffers, I am fine with that. But tell us so that we know how to build our characters, and so that we know what numbers to gather to prove to raid leaders we matter. And start fixing our abilities so that we fill that role well.

stahlej

06-13-2008, 02:39 PM

The class is in a sad state. The only way to get a company to listen is to stop feeding them from your wallet. But sadly, there aren't enough full time Shadowknights out there to make an impact.If some dev have happened to say that something is on the radar it would mean a fix is over 6 months away. When something is on the radar it's not even being looked at yet.

Tiberuis

06-15-2008, 11:31 AM

Wow!Check out these EQ2 SK forums, going back to the launch of ROK.There are 1542 posts asking the Dev's to fix the SK class.Topics include plate tank class balance issues as follows :1) Low DPS (no. 1 complaint)2) Raid Utility (no. 2 complaint)3) SK Equipment/Itemization does not have damage bonus for Melee/CA & Spell combined (SO MANY posts complaining about this poor design issue) (no. 3 complaint)4) Poor Aggro/losing Aggro abilities (no. 4 complaint)5) Lower Mitigation and Avoidance than the other plate tanks (these 2 complaints seem to be about tied for 5th place)6) Why no 2 Handed Weapon Bonus? (SK's should have this for sure) 7) SK Epic/Mythical not useful/lacking compared to the other plate tanks Epic/Mythical (separate from the no. 3 complaint for poor itemization).This is what I have been able to compile based on reading the voices of the SK community on these forums.Take your pick of any of these issues, Dear Devs. SK's are sucking in so many areas compared to the other plate tank classes, it's hard to figure out where to start fixing them - although I would respectfully suggest starting at the no. 1 complaint, lack of DPS <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Mr. Dawki

06-16-2008, 01:38 PM

I got it!OK Take the hundreds of pages of complaints/sugestions and make a book out of it. Should weigh in the hundreds of pounds. Then at fanfare beat the devs over the head with it while screaming "FEEL THE PAIN OF THE SK CLASS!" It could work.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

cooperownzyou

06-17-2008, 12:20 AM

wow, SKs seem very, well, "broken".not that i like "broken" classes , but it has pursauded me to know what youa ll have been suffering for the past 6 months.now, i'm going to mkae an SK and when the problems hit me, i'll post something constructive about this.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />- - i should not be doing this the DEVs should. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Angel-Lucifer

06-18-2008, 06:39 PM

Wow, I have never truly realized how useless our class is. Almost feel like SOE should just remove them from the game. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

rabid.pooh

06-18-2008, 07:20 PM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow!Check out these EQ2 SK forums, going back to the launch of ROK.There are 1542 posts asking the Dev's to fix the SK class.Topics include plate tank class balance issues as follows :1) Low DPS (no. 1 complaint)2) Raid Utility (no. 2 complaint)3) SK Equipment/Itemization does not have damage bonus for Melee/CA & Spell combined (SO MANY posts complaining about this poor design issue) (no. 3 complaint)4) Poor Aggro/losing Aggro abilities (no. 4 complaint)5) Lower Mitigation and Avoidance than the other plate tanks (these 2 complaints seem to be about tied for 5th place)6) Why no 2 Handed Weapon Bonus? (SK's should have this for sure) 7) SK Epic/Mythical not useful/lacking compared to the other plate tanks Epic/Mythical (separate from the no. 3 complaint for poor itemization).This is what I have been able to compile based on reading the voices of the SK community on these forums.Take your pick of any of these issues, Dear Devs. SK's are sucking in so many areas compared to the other plate tank classes, it's hard to figure out where to start fixing them - although I would respectfully suggest starting at the no. 1 complaint, lack of DPS <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Solve number 3 and you solve most of the issues, #3 solves #1, #4, #5, #6 and #7.Really 90% of our issues comes down to the fact that the SK is such a varied class and that gear is not in the least tailored to our needs. For instance lets look at the SK Mythical;300% of the damage regained by lifetaps is applied to the SK's hate... On the hole doesn't look bad, nice little hate boost, I mean SKs have problems with hate right? Well no we don't have problems with hate, we are by design an offensive tank who relies on DPS to hold and maintain aggro, our problem is DPS and this effect while it looks good misses the mark entirely. The gear more importantly the tank gear has to start including crusader related requirements, and until the designer who deisgns the weapons starts to actually understand our class, SKs are doomed to suffer.All tanks when they put on the heavy tanking gear suffer in DPS, it's a fact, however SKs suffer more because those heavy tanking items will tend not to have any SK needed abilities on them at all, and only address the needs of a warrior class.

Lauree

06-19-2008, 10:38 AM

<cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solve number 3 and you solve most of the issues, #3 solves #1, #4, #5, #6 and #7.</blockquote>They should maybe just get rid of the hybrid stats and make either all spells directly to CAs, or make our spells also STR based. Of course our off-stance has then to be changed from INT to STR, and they should get rid of spell and melee crit/damage on items and just give it +crit/damage that works on both .. spells and melee.However .. just wishful thinking <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Mr. Dawki

06-19-2008, 01:59 PM

I belive i can say with absolute confidance that the SK was ment for an offtank role. That being said our snap aggro tools need a huge buff. Deathmarch was good in T6, not rarely works now, other than DM we have our mythical clicky, and even with that the second it expires the mob typicly runs back to whoever I was trying to save.If you were to look at our counterparts the pally, the simply have to ammends a wizzy or rouge and hit holy ground. Bam instant agro, and it stays there. We need some form of tool that does not just force a mob to stare at us for 8 seconds it needs to be a positional hate increase so we can be sure we keep said mob looking at us.The heal agro is nice but only if you do not have a shaman in group, otherwise you are not healing yourself and the 300% hate buff is useless.Some fixes to this. buff the hell out of the DM hate, make it positional even. Its durration is way too short to be concidered a viable utility unless you are rounding up multiple mobs, which never happens in RoK anyway. so make it a large positional taunt instead.Siphon hate, beef it up to at least 10%Dmg shield. boost the taunt 200% or more.

evilgamer

06-19-2008, 02:23 PM

<cite>Laureena@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solve number 3 and you solve most of the issues, #3 solves #1, #4, #5, #6 and #7.</blockquote>They should maybe just get rid of the hybrid stats and make either all spells directly to CAs, or make our spells also STR based. Of course our off-stance has then to be changed from INT to STR, and they should get rid of spell and melee crit/damage on items and just give it +crit/damage that works on both .. spells and melee.However .. just wishful thinking <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Then we would be warriors with FD and evac.There has to be a balance there.We do get more utility then both warrior classes, that has to balance with something.That being said I think they just need to upgrade our spells/CA. More damage for less power, quicker cast times. Whatever.That would preserver our crusader uniquness and balance us out a bit.

Bruener

06-19-2008, 07:06 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laureena@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solve number 3 and you solve most of the issues, #3 solves #1, #4, #5, #6 and #7.</blockquote>They should maybe just get rid of the hybrid stats and make either all spells directly to CAs, or make our spells also STR based. Of course our off-stance has then to be changed from INT to STR, and they should get rid of spell and melee crit/damage on items and just give it +crit/damage that works on both .. spells and melee.However .. just wishful thinking <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Then we would be warriors with FD and evac.There has to be a balance there.We do get more utility then both warrior classes, that has to balance with something.That being said I think they just need to upgrade our spells/CA. More damage for less power, quicker cast times. Whatever.That would preserver our crusader uniquness and balance us out a bit.</blockquote>Ha ha, what utility? FD and Evac are a joke. Any class that is a tinkerer can have FD now, and how many times do you use evac on a raid? Zerkers have a much better group buff than us and any agro tool/damage aborption tool that warriors get should be classified as utility, since it is an extra ability besides DPS. So yeah, warriors beat the [Removed for Content] out of us in the utility department.Yes, we would lose some of the flavor of the SK if they changed the spells to CA's, but I am willing to take it if they are not going to go back and do a "real" fix. That being said, as a tank using spells we should not be able to be interrupted while casting, and we should be able to cast on the run. We are already penalized enough with casting times being longer on spells when compared to CA's, we should not feel an additional punishment when trying to move, or when tanking and casting.The second part of Toesmash's post is right on and something that I have posted about many times, for a long time now. If they are not going to itemize gear to properly have +spell crits with the +melee crits, and +spell damage with +CA damage, than they need to just consolidate they ideas and have a +crit and +damage modifiers. This would relieve a lot of the pressure that itemization is under at the moment, not only for us, but also for some other classes. Also, more gear would be usable by more classes.There is so much pontentially that the Devs could do to improve our class, and the ideas that the SK community have put together would be a great place to start. The frustrating part about this is that the Devs have at best put this issue on the back burners when it should be at the top of their list. A lot of players have left game because SOE can't even post a comment that says they recognize the problems and they are working on them...instead they leave everybody in limbo. Being in sales this is the poorest type of customer service I have ever seen. Hell, in sales, even if you technically don't have something in the works you would lie through your teeth to satisfy the individuals that are frustrated, and than immediately get to work on it.SOE this is what you should do according to Maxwell:Make a list of everything that you need to do.Number the items on the list in order of importance.Concentrate on the top 3 till they are addressedRinse and Repeat...Just make sure that the SK issue is in the top 3.

Giral

06-19-2008, 08:12 PM

Mr Dawkins wrote : I belive i can say with absolute confidance that the SK was ment for an offtank role.i disagree with your absolute confidence ...since Sk's have tanked 98% of the Raid content in Eq2. and could tank the other 2 % given the chance/time/gear. i do believe That you percieve Sk's to be an Offtank class, but since i have Mt'd plenty of raids i Percieve Sk's to be a Viable choice for MT(guards were always easier, but in rok the devs took the easy route And it backfired and they have Guards as Best MT and argueably the best OT) i believe that Making 1 Tank class the Primary tanks for all raids in eq2 is the stupidest thing the Devs could have done(but its the Easiest thing for the devs to do, and ROk was all about Easy mode for the dev's) instead of 4 choices for MT and 4 choices for OT, you have 1 Choice for MT and 4 choices for OT(and Sk's last of the 4 for either MT or OT ) Sk is a Tank first and foremost. who is Picked to MT or OT when you have 4 plate tank's equaly geared , should be picked by Skill. not by one class being far and away the easiest chioce even when less geared and less skilled.

evilgamer

06-19-2008, 10:35 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laureena@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solve number 3 and you solve most of the issues, #3 solves #1, #4, #5, #6 and #7.</blockquote>They should maybe just get rid of the hybrid stats and make either all spells directly to CAs, or make our spells also STR based. Of course our off-stance has then to be changed from INT to STR, and they should get rid of spell and melee crit/damage on items and just give it +crit/damage that works on both .. spells and melee.However .. just wishful thinking <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Then we would be warriors with FD and evac.There has to be a balance there.We do get more utility then both warrior classes, that has to balance with something.That being said I think they just need to upgrade our spells/CA. More damage for less power, quicker cast times. Whatever.That would preserver our crusader uniquness and balance us out a bit.</blockquote>Ha ha, what utility? FD and Evac are a joke. Any class that is a tinkerer can have FD now, and how many times do you use evac on a raid? Zerkers have a much better group buff than us and any agro tool/damage aborption tool that warriors get should be classified as utility, since it is an extra ability besides DPS. So yeah, warriors beat the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of us in the utility department. Sorry I do not believe that warrior out utility either of the cursaders. You discount the utility of being able to FD someone, evac, or more importantly heal the [Removed for Content] out of yourself with lifetaps, but I dont. There is a reason SK are the king of solo as far as plate wearing tanks go and utilty is that reason.Yes, we would lose some of the flavor of the SK if they changed the spells to CA's, but I am willing to take it if they are not going to go back and do a "real" fix. That being said, as a tank using spells we should not be able to be interrupted while casting, and we should be able to cast on the run. We are already penalized enough with casting times being longer on spells when compared to CA's, we should not feel an additional punishment when trying to move, or when tanking and casting.Like I said I think just think the reward we have to endure for increased spell cast time, being interupted, and haveing to balance an additional stat are poor. I dont mind being intereupted and all that if because of that my spells were much better then Warrior CA. But as they stand they are not, so yes it does suck. I think they just need to upgrade our spells. I was a longtime SK player in EQ 1 and went through the highs and low of that class and when they finally got SK's right in that game was when they tweaked our spells with POP, not by turning us into warrior clones with evil sounding spells.The second part of Toesmash's post is right on and something that I have posted about many times, for a long time now. If they are not going to itemize gear to properly have +spell crits with the +melee crits, and +spell damage with +CA damage, than they need to just consolidate they ideas and have a +crit and +damage modifiers. This would relieve a lot of the pressure that itemization is under at the moment, not only for us, but also for some other classes. Also, more gear would be usable by more classes.There is so much pontentially that the Devs could do to improve our class, and the ideas that the SK community have put together would be a great place to start. The frustrating part about this is that the Devs have at best put this issue on the back burners when it should be at the top of their list. A lot of players have left game because SOE can't even post a comment that says they recognize the problems and they are working on them...instead they leave everybody in limbo. Being in sales this is the poorest type of customer service I have ever seen. Hell, in sales, even if you technically don't have something in the works you would lie through your teeth to satisfy the individuals that are frustrated, and than immediately get to work on it.SOE this is what you should do according to Maxwell:Make a list of everything that you need to do.Number the items on the list in order of importance.Concentrate on the top 3 till they are addressedRinse and Repeat...Just make sure that the SK issue is in the top 3.</blockquote>

Lauree

06-20-2008, 03:23 AM

evilgamer

06-20-2008, 10:22 AM

<cite>Laureena@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laureena@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solve number 3 and you solve most of the issues, #3 solves #1, #4, #5, #6 and #7.</blockquote>They should maybe just get rid of the hybrid stats and make either all spells directly to CAs, or make our spells also STR based. Of course our off-stance has then to be changed from INT to STR, and they should get rid of spell and melee crit/damage on items and just give it +crit/damage that works on both .. spells and melee.However .. just wishful thinking <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Then we would be warriors with FD and evac.There has to be a balance there.We do get more utility then both warrior classes, that has to balance with something.That being said I think they just need to upgrade our spells/CA. More damage for less power, quicker cast times. Whatever.That would preserver our crusader uniquness and balance us out a bit.</blockquote>We ARE warriors in T8, only with less miti, worse avoidance and melee damage .. thats the problem.The flavor of being the mage-tank has totally been destroyed with the lack of AoE content. The last time i played my SK my auto-attack was 35% of my total damage and tap veins was 2% .. in T7 normally my autoattck was 10-15% and tap, circle were each 10%+ Also healing .. in T7 i was mostly on par with druids .. in T8 i healed for 10% of the druid .. that all totally destroyed the fun in the class for me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Like I said they need to improve our spells to balance out the fact that we can be interupted and must balance and additional stat to be effective.Quicker cast time on the nukes, less power, more damage, quicker re-use.I dont want to be a warrior clone thats damage is diseased based otherwise I would have just rolled a warrior.I like the mage part of being a sk, I just think our spells need a bit of an upgrade, to balance out what warriors can do.

Tiberuis

06-20-2008, 11:21 AM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like I said they need to improve our spells to balance out the fact that we can be interupted and must balance and additional stat to be effective.Quicker cast time on the nukes, less power, more damage, quicker re-use.I dont want to be a warrior clone thats damage is diseased based otherwise I would have just rolled a warrior.I like the mage part of being a sk, I just think our spells need a bit of an upgrade, to balance out what warriors can do.</blockquote>I totally agree. I think we would all agree that we want to keep the "mage part," or "plate caster," function of our class identity alive and thriving.Quicker cast time on our spells, less power, more damage, quicker re-use. This would result in more DPS. And subsequently more aggro. And within reach of the warrior plate tank classes in DPS.A perfect "quick fix" for our class. Our SK community would be very happy this, I am sure. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Bruener

06-20-2008, 08:02 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laureena@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solve number 3 and you solve most of the issues, #3 solves #1, #4, #5, #6 and #7.</blockquote>They should maybe just get rid of the hybrid stats and make either all spells directly to CAs, or make our spells also STR based. Of course our off-stance has then to be changed from INT to STR, and they should get rid of spell and melee crit/damage on items and just give it +crit/damage that works on both .. spells and melee.However .. just wishful thinking <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Then we would be warriors with FD and evac.There has to be a balance there.We do get more utility then both warrior classes, that has to balance with something.That being said I think they just need to upgrade our spells/CA. More damage for less power, quicker cast times. Whatever.That would preserver our crusader uniquness and balance us out a bit.</blockquote>Ha ha, what utility? FD and Evac are a joke. Any class that is a tinkerer can have FD now, and how many times do you use evac on a raid? Zerkers have a much better group buff than us and any agro tool/damage aborption tool that warriors get should be classified as utility, since it is an extra ability besides DPS. So yeah, warriors beat the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of us in the utility department. Sorry I do not believe that warrior out utility either of the cursaders. You discount the utility of being able to FD someone, evac, or more importantly heal the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of yourself with lifetaps, but I dont. There is a reason SK are the king of solo as far as plate wearing tanks go and utilty is that reason.And again I will argue that warriors have more utility than us. All of those little abilities that warriors get that help them tank better, that is all utility. It is tank utility, and guess what in this game tank utility > any other utility SK's have, and guess what the class that is supreme tank right now has more tank utility than anybody. Temp buffs, ToS, Reinforcement, etc....those tank utilities are better than any utility the SK has right now. The disparity between tanks is so bad right now, and everybody knows it. People still think of SKs as a utility tank or a dps tank...but it is not there right now. DPS tank...ha...utility tank...not if you look at all around tank utility. I am sure SOE is just waiting till the next expansion so that they can fix all their screw ups by implementing other ideas rather than having there be one supreme tank. And it will be known that RoK was the era of Guard uberness, zerker & pally mediocreness, and SK [Removed for Content]-on-ness.Yes, we would lose some of the flavor of the SK if they changed the spells to CA's, but I am willing to take it if they are not going to go back and do a "real" fix. That being said, as a tank using spells we should not be able to be interrupted while casting, and we should be able to cast on the run. We are already penalized enough with casting times being longer on spells when compared to CA's, we should not feel an additional punishment when trying to move, or when tanking and casting.Like I said I think just think the reward we have to endure for increased spell cast time, being interupted, and haveing to balance an additional stat are poor. I dont mind being intereupted and all that if because of that my spells were much better then Warrior CA. But as they stand they are not, so yes it does suck. I think they just need to upgrade our spells. I was a longtime SK player in EQ 1 and went through the highs and low of that class and when they finally got SK's right in that game was when they tweaked our spells with POP, not by turning us into warrior clones with evil sounding spells.The second part of Toesmash's post is right on and something that I have posted about many times, for a long time now. If they are not going to itemize gear to properly have +spell crits with the +melee crits, and +spell damage with +CA damage, than they need to just consolidate they ideas and have a +crit and +damage modifiers. This would relieve a lot of the pressure that itemization is under at the moment, not only for us, but also for some other classes. Also, more gear would be usable by more classes.There is so much pontentially that the Devs could do to improve our class, and the ideas that the SK community have put together would be a great place to start. The frustrating part about this is that the Devs have at best put this issue on the back burners when it should be at the top of their list. A lot of players have left game because SOE can't even post a comment that says they recognize the problems and they are working on them...instead they leave everybody in limbo. Being in sales this is the poorest type of customer service I have ever seen. Hell, in sales, even if you technically don't have something in the works you would lie through your teeth to satisfy the individuals that are frustrated, and than immediately get to work on it.SOE this is what you should do according to Maxwell:Make a list of everything that you need to do.Number the items on the list in order of importance.Concentrate on the top 3 till they are addressedRinse and Repeat...Just make sure that the SK issue is in the top 3.</blockquote></blockquote>

evilgamer

06-20-2008, 10:34 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laureena@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solve number 3 and you solve most of the issues, #3 solves #1, #4, #5, #6 and #7.</blockquote>They should maybe just get rid of the hybrid stats and make either all spells directly to CAs, or make our spells also STR based. Of course our off-stance has then to be changed from INT to STR, and they should get rid of spell and melee crit/damage on items and just give it +crit/damage that works on both .. spells and melee.However .. just wishful thinking <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Then we would be warriors with FD and evac.There has to be a balance there.We do get more utility then both warrior classes, that has to balance with something.That being said I think they just need to upgrade our spells/CA. More damage for less power, quicker cast times. Whatever.That would preserver our crusader uniquness and balance us out a bit.</blockquote>Ha ha, what utility? FD and Evac are a joke. Any class that is a tinkerer can have FD now, and how many times do you use evac on a raid? Zerkers have a much better group buff than us and any agro tool/damage aborption tool that warriors get should be classified as utility, since it is an extra ability besides DPS. So yeah, warriors beat the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of us in the utility department. Sorry I do not believe that warrior out utility either of the cursaders. You discount the utility of being able to FD someone, evac, or more importantly heal the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of yourself with lifetaps, but I dont. There is a reason SK are the king of solo as far as plate wearing tanks go and utilty is that reason.And again I will argue that warriors have more utility than us. All of those little abilities that warriors get that help them tank better, that is all utility. It is tank utility, and guess what in this game tank utility > any other utility SK's have, and guess what the class that is supreme tank right now has more tank utility than anybody. Temp buffs, ToS, Reinforcement, etc....those tank utilities are better than any utility the SK has right now. The disparity between tanks is so bad right now, and everybody knows it. People still think of SKs as a utility tank or a dps tank...but it is not there right now. DPS tank...ha...utility tank...not if you look at all around tank utility. I am sure SOE is just waiting till the next expansion so that they can fix all their screw ups by implementing other ideas rather than having there be one supreme tank. And it will be known that RoK was the era of Guard uberness, zerker & pally mediocreness, and SK [I cannot control my vocabulary]-on-ness.Dont forget monks and bruiser. Monks are ok with this expansion, their dps is good, they get great raid utility with group FD, a decent targetable heal, a nice spell and attack haste buff, the best taunt ability in the game (peel), and invulnerability with tsunami.Bruiser get nothing. Bruiser is exactly where the SK is, but slightly better because of better dps.I would rate raid tank usefullness like this guard > pally, zerker, monk > bruiser > SK.Yes, we would lose some of the flavor of the SK if they changed the spells to CA's, but I am willing to take it if they are not going to go back and do a "real" fix. That being said, as a tank using spells we should not be able to be interrupted while casting, and we should be able to cast on the run. We are already penalized enough with casting times being longer on spells when compared to CA's, we should not feel an additional punishment when trying to move, or when tanking and casting.Like I said I think just think the reward we have to endure for increased spell cast time, being interupted, and haveing to balance an additional stat are poor. I dont mind being intereupted and all that if because of that my spells were much better then Warrior CA. But as they stand they are not, so yes it does suck. I think they just need to upgrade our spells. I was a longtime SK player in EQ 1 and went through the highs and low of that class and when they finally got SK's right in that game was when they tweaked our spells with POP, not by turning us into warrior clones with evil sounding spells.The second part of Toesmash's post is right on and something that I have posted about many times, for a long time now. If they are not going to itemize gear to properly have +spell crits with the +melee crits, and +spell damage with +CA damage, than they need to just consolidate they ideas and have a +crit and +damage modifiers. This would relieve a lot of the pressure that itemization is under at the moment, not only for us, but also for some other classes. Also, more gear would be usable by more classes.There is so much pontentially that the Devs could do to improve our class, and the ideas that the SK community have put together would be a great place to start. The frustrating part about this is that the Devs have at best put this issue on the back burners when it should be at the top of their list. A lot of players have left game because SOE can't even post a comment that says they recognize the problems and they are working on them...instead they leave everybody in limbo. Being in sales this is the poorest type of customer service I have ever seen. Hell, in sales, even if you technically don't have something in the works you would lie through your teeth to satisfy the individuals that are frustrated, and than immediately get to work on it.SOE this is what you should do according to Maxwell:Make a list of everything that you need to do.Number the items on the list in order of importance.Concentrate on the top 3 till they are addressedRinse and Repeat...Just make sure that the SK issue is in the top 3.</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

Aull

06-21-2008, 11:55 AM

I personally feel that of all the fighters hate should be where the sk is top dog. Of course this again is just my opinion on sk's, but being a malevolent class should have some advantages in aggro department. I like the idea of the 10% to siphon hate and feel that is a great idea. Increasing casting speeds would be nice as well, but I really do not know what would be best for dps increase for sk's that wouldn't be overpowering.

Kryptonix

06-21-2008, 09:07 PM

Woot returning SK here. I have to agree about the state SKs are at right now. Right now, I feel like garbage in the new zones and against the new content. I think its just [Removed for Content] that I can go into a KoS or EoF zone and take out a blue con triple up named solo then go into the new zones and get smashed by a blue con triple up trash mob. I just dont understand that, are the mobs in the new zones drinking more milk then the other zones? Do they not have Wheaties in KoS or EoF?I am still able to run 3 man groups in HoF and Vaults. Hopefully I can gain a few levels and run some EoF zones with a 3 man group. Hearing that we actually took a step back in regards to raiding progress, is a hard pill to swallow. Seeing that there really isnt any dev input on the matter makes the water salty. Hopefully, something will get done.

Margen

06-22-2008, 11:32 AM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally feel that of all the fighters hate should be where the sk is top dog. Of course this again is just my opinion on sk's, but being a malevolent class should have some advantages in aggro department. I like the idea of the 10% to siphon hate and feel that is a great idea. Increasing casting speeds would be nice as well, but I really do not know what would be best for dps increase for sk's that wouldn't be overpowering.</blockquote>We where always advertised as a "DPS" tank, the trade off was SUPPOSED to be that Guardians would do horrible dps (which is obviously no longer true), but have better survival skills. But in reality we have never been on top of the plate dps tree, beserkers have always all thing being equal kicked out butts, specially when tanking. But the problem is now we are 5th on the dps chart for tanks. We do need a substantial increase dps, if SK where given increased dps and agro skills and our survival skills remained then the argument could be made that there is some form of balance. But limited agro, sub-par dps and bad survival skills do not in anyway make it balanced. We are at the bottom or dang close to the bottom of every one of these in tier 8!

evilgamer

06-22-2008, 08:46 PM

<cite>Blackoath@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally feel that of all the fighters hate should be where the sk is top dog. Of course this again is just my opinion on sk's, but being a malevolent class should have some advantages in aggro department. I like the idea of the 10% to siphon hate and feel that is a great idea. Increasing casting speeds would be nice as well, but I really do not know what would be best for dps increase for sk's that wouldn't be overpowering.</blockquote>We where always advertised as a "DPS" tank, the trade off was SUPPOSED to be that Guardians would do horrible dps (which is obviously no longer true), but have better survival skills. But in reality we have never been on top of the plate dps tree, beserkers have always all thing being equal kicked out butts, specially when tanking. But the problem is now we are 5th on the dps chart for tanks. We do need a substantial increase dps, if SK where given increased dps and agro skills and our survival skills remained then the argument could be made that there is some form of balance. But limited agro, sub-par dps and bad survival skills do not in anyway make it balanced. We are at the bottom or dang close to the bottom of every one of these in tier 8!</blockquote>Zerkers were also advertised as DPS tanks.Personally I think the dps order should go like this for fighters.Bruiser > monk> zerker > SK > guard > paladinReason I would put zerker in front of SK is because SK does have much better utility then the zerker, FD, lifetaps, and evac count for something.As far as surviability is should go like this:guardian > paladin > SK (due to lifetaps) > zerker > monk > bruiserTaunts should scale according to the dps/surviablity ranking. Meaning that the classes with the lowerst dps shoud get the better taunts.Aggro abiltity should be the same for all fighters, so that the only real trade offs are dps vs surviablity with a bit of utiltiy mixed in. Of course the how it really is goes like thisDPS:monk/bruiser > guardian/zerker > SK > paladinsurviability guardian > paladin > zerker > sk > monk > bruiserguardian/monk dps needs nerfedzerker surviablity needs a slight nerf.

Tiberuis

06-23-2008, 10:38 AM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally I think the dps order should go like this for fighters.Bruiser > monk> zerker > SK > guard > paladinReason I would put zerker in front of SK is because SK does have much better utility then the zerker, FD, lifetaps, and evac count for something.As far as surviability is should go like this:guardian > paladin > SK (due to lifetaps) > zerker > monk > bruiserTaunts should scale according to the dps/surviablity ranking. Meaning that the classes with the lowerst dps shoud get the better taunts.Aggro abiltity should be the same for all fighters, so that the only real trade offs are dps vs surviablity with a bit of utiltiy mixed in. Of course the how it really is goes like thisDPS:monk/bruiser > guardian/zerker > SK > paladinsurviability guardian > paladin > zerker > sk > monk > bruiserguardian/monk dps needs nerfedzerker surviablity needs a slight nerf.</blockquote>Interesting food for thought.I understand how challenging it is at launch of an expansion to balance the plate tanks (outside of Utility, which is easy to address). Each class achieves their Survivability, Aggro and DPS via different methods, and game mechanics. But 6-7 months after launch, it really becomes obvious what need to be done - the Dev test toons are there, the parses are there, the raiding and instance group player feedback is there for analysis.So :1) Fix the SK's Itemization to include significant +CA Damage, AND + Spell Damage, as a single stat. 2) Add significant Double Attack stats to SK gear. 3) Increase base Spell Damage range.These 3 simple things will increase the SK's DPS. Increased DPS helps to address the Aggro issue.Results :Happy SK's start showing up on the parse with the Warrior Plate Tanks.People start playing the SK class as a Main again. Unhappy SK players that quit the game come back to the game to try it again.Players have their faith restored in the EQ2 Dev's for fixing the most broken class in the game.<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

evilgamer

06-23-2008, 01:32 PM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally I think the dps order should go like this for fighters.Bruiser > monk> zerker > SK > guard > paladinReason I would put zerker in front of SK is because SK does have much better utility then the zerker, FD, lifetaps, and evac count for something.As far as surviability is should go like this:guardian > paladin > SK (due to lifetaps) > zerker > monk > bruiserTaunts should scale according to the dps/surviablity ranking. Meaning that the classes with the lowerst dps shoud get the better taunts.Aggro abiltity should be the same for all fighters, so that the only real trade offs are dps vs surviablity with a bit of utiltiy mixed in. Of course the how it really is goes like thisDPS:monk/bruiser > guardian/zerker > SK > paladinsurviability guardian > paladin > zerker > sk > monk > bruiserguardian/monk dps needs nerfedzerker surviablity needs a slight nerf.</blockquote>Interesting food for thought.I understand how challenging it is at launch of an expansion to balance the plate tanks (outside of Utility, which is easy to address). Each class achieves their Survivability, Aggro and DPS via different methods, and game mechanics. But 6-7 months after launch, it really becomes obvious what need to be done - the Dev test toons are there, the parses are there, the raiding and instance group player feedback is there for analysis.So :1) Fix the SK's Itemization to include significant +CA Damage, AND + Spell Damage, as a single stat. 2) Add significant Double Attack stats to SK gear. 3) Increase base Spell Damage range.These 3 simple things will increase the SK's DPS. Increased DPS helps to address the Aggro issue.Results :Happy SK's start showing up on the parse with the Warrior Plate Tanks.People start playing the SK class as a Main again. Unhappy SK players that quit the game come back to the game to try it again.Players have their faith restored in the EQ2 Dev's for fixing the most broken class in the game.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Yeah I mention earlier that SK's were finally fixed in EQ 1 with spells, which is only partially true, the crusaders in EQ 1 also had access to decent itemizations too, they had the best weapons in the game to make up for their lack of dual weild and two handers were much more viable in EQ 1 vs eq 2. In eq 1 even classes that could dual weild still used two handers. Also when the started putting alot of flowing thought on crusader gear it really helped out alot.

Margen

06-23-2008, 07:54 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Blackoath@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally feel that of all the fighters hate should be where the sk is top dog. Of course this again is just my opinion on sk's, but being a malevolent class should have some advantages in aggro department. I like the idea of the 10% to siphon hate and feel that is a great idea. Increasing casting speeds would be nice as well, but I really do not know what would be best for dps increase for sk's that wouldn't be overpowering.</blockquote>We where always advertised as a "DPS" tank, the trade off was SUPPOSED to be that Guardians would do horrible dps (which is obviously no longer true), but have better survival skills. But in reality we have never been on top of the plate dps tree, beserkers have always all thing being equal kicked out butts, specially when tanking. But the problem is now we are 5th on the dps chart for tanks. We do need a substantial increase dps, if SK where given increased dps and agro skills and our survival skills remained then the argument could be made that there is some form of balance. But limited agro, sub-par dps and bad survival skills do not in anyway make it balanced. We are at the bottom or dang close to the bottom of every one of these in tier 8!</blockquote>Zerkers were also advertised as DPS tanks.Personally I think the dps order should go like this for fighters.Bruiser > monk> zerker > SK > guard > paladinReason I would put zerker in front of SK is because SK does have much better utility then the zerker, FD, lifetaps, and evac count for something.As far as surviability is should go like this:guardian > paladin > SK (due to lifetaps) > zerker > monk > bruiserTaunts should scale according to the dps/surviablity ranking. Meaning that the classes with the lowerst dps shoud get the better taunts.Aggro abiltity should be the same for all fighters, so that the only real trade offs are dps vs surviablity with a bit of utiltiy mixed in. Of course the how it really is goes like thisDPS:monk/bruiser > guardian/zerker > SK > paladinsurviability guardian > paladin > zerker > sk > monk > bruiserguardian/monk dps needs nerfedzerker surviablity needs a slight nerf.</blockquote>Going to have to disagree with you when you mention our "utlity" vs Beserkers and the trade offs for dps its supposed to cover. FD, yes we can consider that a limited utility in group/Raid setting, evac though is very limited due to the fact in a raid it has no use and in a group, we are usually tanking, so if things go south in a fight, 9 times out of 10 we die first. Its mostly a traveling spell, nice to have I guess, but would trade it in a heart beat for something that did good damage or improved my tanking.That leaves DM and our raid/group spell damage buff, and our three debuffs that effect others, Str, Wis and physical mitigation, the only one that really makes a difference is Mist in most encounters. DM is a nice spell, but if not tanking its a 10 second buff for the group and its only tier six (they really should of upgraded that spell). Most SKs really consider it our unlocked AOE taunt vs an actual buff. Our Raid/Group buff is ok up to tier 8, it was a nice idea to increase our viabilty in raids, but in tier 8 most casting classes due to Itemization have spell damage out the tail pipe, many are at the soft cap of 50pct anyway.My main problem with your argument is our Lifetaps, Beserkers have better tanking tools then we do and the idea was that our lifetaps where supposed to be our tanking tools not a form of "utility". But the problem is even in group settings in Tier 8 our lifetaps are badly underpowered, so Beserkers can take damage better then us SKs. So lifetaps are not a utility, they are a tanking tool (just a poor one at higher tiers).Also remember Beserkers also have utility, don't claim its awe inspiring utility, but then neither is ours. Some of their high end utiltiy.War Fury - Group buff granting small chance for brief individual atk speed/DPS buff on successful attack + greater chance on taking damage + even greater chance when striking a deathblowHead Crush- Crushing damage + interrupt + focus debuffRouse - Group str buffAnarchism - Short group physical mit buff. (Higher vs. crush; lower vs. slash/pierce.) Dismember - Slashing damage + slashing DOT + atk speed debuffRelentless Rage - Group/raidwide in-combat health regen buff (Granted this is a weak one, but its no weaker then our LT group buff)Now I am in no way saying that Beserkers are Bards in plate, or that they don't have problems of their own this expansion, but every fighter class has "Utility" and the argument that our utility should offset another tanks better dps and surviability I think is a mistake. Because our utility is nothing to write home to mom about.Any Beserkers reading this, please don't take it as a knock against your class, I know you all have issues and major problems on this expansion also. Its just adressing the diffrence in dps argument.

evilgamer

06-24-2008, 02:04 AM

<cite>Blackoath@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Blackoath@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally feel that of all the fighters hate should be where the sk is top dog. Of course this again is just my opinion on sk's, but being a malevolent class should have some advantages in aggro department. I like the idea of the 10% to siphon hate and feel that is a great idea. Increasing casting speeds would be nice as well, but I really do not know what would be best for dps increase for sk's that wouldn't be overpowering.</blockquote>We where always advertised as a "DPS" tank, the trade off was SUPPOSED to be that Guardians would do horrible dps (which is obviously no longer true), but have better survival skills. But in reality we have never been on top of the plate dps tree, beserkers have always all thing being equal kicked out butts, specially when tanking. But the problem is now we are 5th on the dps chart for tanks. We do need a substantial increase dps, if SK where given increased dps and agro skills and our survival skills remained then the argument could be made that there is some form of balance. But limited agro, sub-par dps and bad survival skills do not in anyway make it balanced. We are at the bottom or dang close to the bottom of every one of these in tier 8!</blockquote>Zerkers were also advertised as DPS tanks.Personally I think the dps order should go like this for fighters.Bruiser > monk> zerker > SK > guard > paladinReason I would put zerker in front of SK is because SK does have much better utility then the zerker, FD, lifetaps, and evac count for something.As far as surviability is should go like this:guardian > paladin > SK (due to lifetaps) > zerker > monk > bruiserTaunts should scale according to the dps/surviablity ranking. Meaning that the classes with the lowerst dps shoud get the better taunts.Aggro abiltity should be the same for all fighters, so that the only real trade offs are dps vs surviablity with a bit of utiltiy mixed in. Of course the how it really is goes like thisDPS:monk/bruiser > guardian/zerker > SK > paladinsurviability guardian > paladin > zerker > sk > monk > bruiserguardian/monk dps needs nerfedzerker surviablity needs a slight nerf.</blockquote>Going to have to disagree with you when you mention our "utlity" vs Beserkers and the trade offs for dps its supposed to cover. FD, yes we can consider that a limited utility in group/Raid setting, Limited use? Lol, it has saved my sk from death more times then I can count and also prevent an utimely group wipe on numerous occasions. Nothing a zerker has ever done anything even remotely close to that. evac though is very limited due to the fact in a raid it has no use and in a group, we are usually tanking, so if things go south in a fight, 9 times out of 10 we die first. Its mostly a traveling spell, nice to have I guess, but would trade it in a heart beat for something that did good damage or improved my tanking.I dont think evac is as useful as FD, but it has saved myself and group mates a number of times, it still a fairly useful spell.That leaves DM and our raid/group spell damage buff, and our three debuffs that effect others, Str, Wis and physical mitigation, the only one that really makes a difference is Mist in most encounters. DM is a nice spell, but if not tanking its a 10 second buff for the group and its only tier six (they really should of upgraded that spell). Most SKs really consider it our unlocked AOE taunt vs an actual buff. Our Raid/Group buff is ok up to tier 8, it was a nice idea to increase our viabilty in raids, but in tier 8 most casting classes due to Itemization have spell damage out the tail pipe, many are at the soft cap of 50pct anyway.My main problem with your argument is our Lifetaps, Beserkers have better tanking tools then we do and the idea was that our lifetaps where supposed to be our tanking tools not a form of "utility". But the problem is even in group settings in Tier 8 our lifetaps are badly underpowered, so Beserkers can take damage better then us SKs. So lifetaps are not a utility, they are a tanking tool (just a poor one at higher tiers).Well I would still consider them utility because they can be used if not tanking. I ward the tank when I grouped and not tanking all the time, I also can use lifetaps to heal whatever AOE damage i might get.Also remember Beserkers also have utility, don't claim its awe inspiring utility, but then neither is ours. Some of their high end utiltiy.War Fury - Group buff granting small chance for brief individual atk speed/DPS buff on successful attack + greater chance on taking damage + even greater chance when striking a deathblowHead Crush- Crushing damage + interrupt + focus debuffRouse - Group str buffAnarchism - Short group physical mit buff. (Higher vs. crush; lower vs. slash/pierce.) Dismember - Slashing damage + slashing DOT + atk speed debuffRelentless Rage - Group/raidwide in-combat health regen buff (Granted this is a weak one, but its no weaker then our LT group buff)Now I am in no way saying that Beserkers are Bards in plate, or that they don't have problems of their own this expansion, but every fighter class has "Utility" and the argument that our utility should offset another tanks better dps and surviability I think is a mistake. Because our utility is nothing to write home to mom about.Any Beserkers reading this, please don't take it as a knock against your class, I know you all have issues and major problems on this expansion also. Its just adressing the diffrence in dps argument.SK's also get that group lifetap buff, you cant argue that group raid buffs are utility when every single class gets a group buff as far as I know.I am sorry but the SK does get a bit more utility then zerkers imo.But if you noticed in my argument I didnt think SK's shoudl be behind zerkers in dps because I think we should be ahead of them in surviablity with lifetaps.I picture the zerker as the dps plate tank but with the least servivability.Remember I said the plate tank order should be like this.DPS: zerk > SK > guard / paladin (guard better on single, paladin beter aoe)Surviability : guard > paladin > sk > zerkZerkers would have the best plate dps but the worst plate tankingSK would have the 2nd best plate dps and the 3rd best tanking, with utility. I personally thing it would be asking to much to out dps and out tank a zerker, and still get fd, evac, and lifetaps.I think being able to out tank them with lifetaps, but do a bit less dps would be a far trade off.</blockquote>

Tiberuis

06-30-2008, 06:53 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite> <blockquote><blockquote>DPS: zerk > SK > guard / paladin (guard better on single, paladin beter aoe)Surviability : guard > paladin > sk > zerkZerkers would have the best plate dps but the worst plate tankingSK would have the 2nd best plate dps and the 3rd best tanking, with utility. </blockquote></blockquote>Perfect.Is this not how the plate tank class balance was originally supposed to be "working as intended" anyways?It sure did NOT work out this way for the SK. We are third in DPS and dead last in survivability/aggro tanking.Looking forward to the next GU, and praying for an SK update to help balance the plate tanks out.

Zehl_Ice-Fire

06-30-2008, 08:06 PM

<cite>"</cite> Sorry I do not believe that warrior out utility either of the cursaders. You discount the utility of being able to FD someone, evac, or more importantly heal the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of yourself with lifetaps, but I dont. "<cite></cite>Good luck convincing anyone that FDing another player, evac and lifetapping yourself a bit makes you useful in a raid or a group. Not that they aren't things I personally liked myself.

fang101

07-19-2008, 08:15 AM

Bruener

07-19-2008, 10:16 AM

Must not be because once again on Test the changes to our Mythical are weak at best. The damage proc is small and unlike the Paladin one that goes off 3.0 times per minute ours goes off 2.4 times per minute. SOE did nothing to add some defensive ability on our weapon which is really what we needed the most if they are going to take us out of a descent DPS spot. Sad that this time around with the changes to epics is probably the last hope we have for getting ours upgraded descently, since I am sure SOE will not revisit them again.

Pitt Hammerfi

07-21-2008, 06:21 AM

I would like to see SK's get some kind of ethereal form, that turns us into a ghost - avoiding hits

therodge

07-21-2008, 12:49 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally I think the dps order should go like this for fighters.Bruiser > monk> zerker > SK > guard > paladinReason I would put zerker in front of SK is because SK does have much better utility then the zerker, FD, lifetaps, and evac count for something.As far as surviability is should go like this:guardian > paladin > SK (due to lifetaps) > zerker > monk > bruiserTaunts should scale according to the dps/surviablity ranking. Meaning that the classes with the lowerst dps shoud get the better taunts.Aggro abiltity should be the same for all fighters, so that the only real trade offs are dps vs surviablity with a bit of utiltiy mixed in. Of course the how it really is goes like thisDPS:monk/bruiser > guardian/zerker > SK > paladinsurviability guardian > paladin > zerker > sk > monk > bruiserguardian/monk dps needs nerfedzerker surviablity needs a slight nerf.</blockquote>i dont know how old this thread is but im a paladin and i have to say this is the worst reasoning ever! paladins get the same little speach becuase we get heals, so let me tell u something about sk and crusader in genral utitlitySK lifetaps: with exception of i beileve one spell all sk lifetaps are self only and heal for pretty small amounts if u concider even in group zones youll be getting hit for 5k+ or worse when mobs double attack. which might i add DOESENT make up for an sks low avoidance and mit not even close not even a freaken long shot. (heres a crazy idea why not make all sk lifetaps into a stackable life ward that way if they arnt taking damage their personal ward will keep piling up and acually make atleast a small freaken diffrence) evac: i can say that other then pvp sks most sks would let u take evac for some survivablityfd: see evac.and just for kickspaladinheals=useless interupptable and dont heal for jack.lifetaps/heals do not equal utility they do not even equal freaken surivablity as they are now. as said i think if anyone EVER wants to make them worth survivablity then they should do the followingsk uses lifetap 01 inflicting 1342 damage! sk gain 1200 life ward!sk has a total 1200 life wardsk uses lifetap 03 inflicting for 2344 damage!sk gain 2000 life ward!sk has total 3200 life wardsk is hit for 2500 points of slashing damage!sk has total 700 life ward.now this would work, of course in order for this to mean jack sks lifetap amounts should be doubled maybe trippled (and why their at it increase sk attack damage on cas and spells by two) THEN a life tap might mean some sort of added suriveability. and becuase its sk only its not unbalanceing. OMG wanna give sks some utility, how bout making a sk aa line were 10% of their life wards (tm) is added to every group member, well thats so good im proud of myself for thinking of it.and once again just becuase im a paladin and have to do it paladin:make all heals wards and all heals minus group heals uninteruptable 1 second cast and paladin only. (make them slightly better then sk life taps lets say your average sk life tap is 1k {and lets say from now on all but a select few of sk spells have lifetaps) make the paladin heals wards for 4k (and hell put them on a 10 second cast) oh and heres the big one that is only subjectable to a compleatly diffent change to a diffrent overpowered class, lower paladin dps. (lower guardian dps more and ONLY lower paladin dps if lowering guard dps far mor substantially) with all that being said i think zerker dps should go up also, and this was not a flame on the poster i quoted as most of his ideas are pretty solid just saying that sks/paladins dont have utility becuase of one or two heals.that being saiddps (and we are gonna assume equal skill on the following numbers. ( just becuase i want acual balance and not just some spiteful guardian nerf, guards taunts should be increased to a 6k hate taunt so they can hold agro and a paladin to 3k)bruser 6.3k dpsmonk 5.3k dpszerker 4k dps (6 k aoe)sk 3.5k dps (5.5k aoe)paladin 2k dps (5k aoe)guardian 1.5k dpssurvivablityguardianpaladinskzerker(large drop in tankingmonk (add some freaking useful utility minus their raidwide buff)bruiser (see monk)to me this is balance.

Nero

07-24-2008, 07:10 AM

A dev commented that fighters won't be fixed in a short time, but will be fixed in a long term.What does this "long term" mean? Half year? Or one year?Oh, I can't wait so long!Why is the order of priority of fixing fighters in devs so low?For fighters except for Guardian, fixing fighters is a most important fix which they are looking forward to very much!

AziBam

07-28-2008, 01:08 AM

I think what kills me the most about the current state of the SK is dps. If they adjusted our base damage and/or AAs to get our dps up to where it should be (roughly doubled?) then we could at least have civil input on ..."hey, our avoidance sucks, or...hey, we could use something more for death prevention, or.....hey, we need better hate tools" (noting that deathmarch aggro is worthless this expansion..man I miss how that ability use to rock in so many ways.) I pondered betraying on several occasions to get the hate tools, health pool, and avoidance that comes with Pally but I just couldn't bring myself to do it. This was my first toon a couple months after launch and I just have to believe that with what seems to be a nearly univeral agreement from all classes that SKs need some Dev love that something will be done. Course, I also recall the "what class is most useless on raids" threads from...hrm...well...forever ago, where SKs emerged as the winner for that glorious title and to this day most players in the game would probably still hold that opinion. /sigh All that said, if I could dps like a zerk does (anywhere close would keep me happy) I'd be far more patient with the other needs we have.

Giral

07-31-2008, 02:14 AM

<cite>AziBam wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think what kills me the most about the current state of the SK is dps. If they adjusted our base damage and/or AAs to get our dps up to where it should be (roughly doubled?) then we could at least have civil input on ..."hey, our avoidance sucks, or...hey, we could use something more for death prevention, or.....hey, we need better hate tools" (noting that deathmarch aggro is worthless this expansion..man I miss how that ability use to rock in so many ways.) I pondered betraying on several occasions to get the hate tools, health pool, and avoidance that comes with Pally but I just couldn't bring myself to do it. This was my first toon a couple months after launch and I just have to believe that with what seems to be a nearly univeral agreement from all classes that SKs need some Dev love that something will be done. Course, I also recall the "what class is most useless on raids" threads from...hrm...well...forever ago, where SKs emerged as the winner for that glorious title and to this day most players in the game would probably still hold that opinion. /sigh All that said, if I could dps like a zerk does (anywhere close would keep me happy) I'd be far more patient with the other needs we have.</blockquote>i have searched for the "most useless class for raiding" thread that was like 30 some pages long back from was it 2006 ? maybe early 2007 /sigh , i posted in it numerous times but i am unable to find it . probable lost /cough cough when they redid forums. cuase you know a 30 Page long thread about sk's is not important /chuckle anyway if you find it . or anyone has a link to it . be a good read to go over the exact same problemse have in ROK that we had back then .

Kurindor_Mythecnea

07-31-2008, 01:49 PM

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>AziBam wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think what kills me the most about the current state of the SK is dps. If they adjusted our base damage and/or AAs to get our dps up to where it should be (roughly doubled?) then we could at least have civil input on ..."hey, our avoidance sucks, or...hey, we could use something more for death prevention, or.....hey, we need better hate tools" (noting that deathmarch aggro is worthless this expansion..man I miss how that ability use to rock in so many ways.) I pondered betraying on several occasions to get the hate tools, health pool, and avoidance that comes with Pally but I just couldn't bring myself to do it. This was my first toon a couple months after launch and I just have to believe that with what seems to be a nearly univeral agreement from all classes that SKs need some Dev love that something will be done. Course, I also recall the "what class is most useless on raids" threads from...hrm...well...forever ago, where SKs emerged as the winner for that glorious title and to this day most players in the game would probably still hold that opinion. /sigh All that said, if I could dps like a zerk does (anywhere close would keep me happy) I'd be far more patient with the other needs we have.</blockquote>i have searched for the "most useless class for raiding" thread that was like 30 some pages long back from was it 2006 ? maybe early 2007 /sigh , i posted in it numerous times but i am unable to find it . probable lost /cough cough when they redid forums. cuase you know a 30 Page long thread about sk's is not important /chuckle anyway if you find it . or anyone has a link to it . be a good read to go over the exact same problemse have in ROK that we had back then .</blockquote>IMO Giralus you need to make your own thread outlining and analyzing all the deficits relative to the Shadowknight case, where the counterpart had by other fighter classes is also explained thoroughly enough. Just seems to me that not enough emphasis is placed upon players who have a fuller spectrum of consideration when it comes to contention in circumstances like these. For instance, you speaking of how Shadowknights were changed to "taunt over time" at some point, I've never heard that mentioned before and things like that, if further developed, might bring greater attention to where things need to go with top tier Shadowknights.