Skeleton rework

[Lysara]

<p>I remember reading about 6 months back that all the models skeletons were getting redone for a new look and to make it easier to create new armor skins.</p><p>Is this still in the works or has it happened yet? If it's not live is there an eta?</p><p> Thanks all</p><p>(havent played since early december but want a reason to come back)</p>

[Aurumn]

no new developments announced and no ETA.

[Nakaru-Nitepaw]

What ever they do i hope they don't change things too much because i like the way the ratongas look right now. The leg style, face, exc... If they do what they did in Vanguard then everyone will look the same.

[Transen]

Last I read, it won't change any outward appearance.  What it will do is make it so they don't have to make as many of the exact same armor pieces visually.  Right now, each piece of armor that is introduced into the game has to be made several times so that every race and gender shows something worn when they equip it.

[Gnobrin]

<p>Sorry for the lack of information, all.  There's seriously no new news since it's still "in the works".  The art team are working to make ANY change to your character be the biggest bang for the least possible visual change.  Remember too, we're talking about MANY varying body types and some of those are even between the differing sexes of each race...  It's a VERY intensive change, and something that's taken this long to work on, and even longer to complete.</p><p><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>~Gnobrin!</p>

[orchard54]

I can't wait for this update when it comes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />rumor has it, toes and fingers will be more detailed?*crosses fingers*

[Mirander_1]

I got a question on this, Gnobrin;<div></div><div>I recall hearing sometime during Kunark's development, that the Sarnaks use the new, in-development skeletal system, rather than the old one, is this correct?  Also, the new version of the male Human was apparently shown off at the previous fan-faire, from what I heard.</div><div></div><div>Both these things would suggest to me that this new system isn't necessarily something that needs to put in all at once, but rather it's possible for it to be brought into the live game in a piecemeal fashion.</div><div></div><div>Is there any reason why the skeletal system couldn't be implemented on a race-by-race, gender-by-gender basis, as each race/gender is completed?  Doing so would at least provide reassurance to the playerbase that progress is being made on this; and as this revamp is supposedly making visible improvements to the character models, we would start seeing the overall artistic quality of the game continually improving.</div>

[orchard54]

<cite>Mirander_1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I got a question on this, Gnobrin;<div></div><div>I recall hearing sometime during Kunark's development, that the Sarnaks use the new, in-development skeletal system, rather than the old one, is this correct?  Also, the new version of the male Human was apparently shown off at the previous fan-faire, from what I heard.</div><div></div><div>Both these things would suggest to me that this new system isn't necessarily something that needs to put in all at once, but rather it's possible for it to be brought into the live game in a piecemeal fashion.</div><div></div><div>Is there any reason why the skeletal system couldn't be implemented on a race-by-race, gender-by-gender basis, as each race/gender is completed?  Doing so would at least provide reassurance to the playerbase that progress is being made on this; and as this revamp is supposedly making visible improvements to the character models, we would start seeing the overall artistic quality of the game continually improving.</div></blockquote>This is a very good question. Also, I think that would be a great idea as well. Even in testing, if they release 1 or a few race/genders at a time, maybe the people on the test server can test it better on a per race/gender basis. Instead of releasing the full feature and find a ton of the new armor looks doesn't work with some races/genders.

[Qandor]

I find it ironic that we were told that the lack of variety in armor was due to the herculean task to fit them to so many body types. The skeletal revamp was dangled as a fix to this issue and now, approaching 4 years post release, we are still hearing that the "fix" is a herculean task. Bottom line is, approaching the 4 year mark, we still are sitting with the poorest variety of equipment of any game I have ever seen. About the only texture not slapped on the original robe model so far is polka dot so I'm expecting that will be the featured texture rehash for the next expansion.

[-Arctura-]

(( Like Gnobrin said, Its ALOT of work. AAAALOOOOTTTT of work.I do character modelling, unwrapping/texturing, rigging, animation, facial lip sync etc etc...   in my spare time. (but I use 3d STudio Max. (Biped makes it QUICK and easy))<u>They use Maya </u>which is 100% custom skeletal rigs. (no Max Biped!) (means lots more work, and that's just the rigging side of it.)All models need to not only<b>A.</b> Look good in all lighting conditions, but<b>B. </b>Be sliceable into pieces so when you substitute a Platemail BP, the chest area of the model vanishes and is replaced by the armor piece, or the Hand comes off and is replaced by a glove, etc.<b>C. </b>Be geometrically efficient. Wireframe flow needs to be properly setup so animators and riggers don't have nightmares when trying to get the models to move properly. This takes ALOT of time.<b>D.</b> Unwrap the models all the same way so that every character model (Hopefully now only one body-model?), uses the same textures. (Unwrapping can be daunting and often takes forever)<b>E.</b> If the new models are not inheriting the old unwraps, then that means every single armor and clothing texture in game will have to be re-textured in photoshop. (Rearranged to adapt to the new model's unwraps. VERY VERY time consuming, there are hundreds of textures)<b>F. </b>Have their heads re-rigged for facial animations. Additionally, all facial animations will likely have to be redone from SCRATCH. (unless they are using facial bone rig, which would take less time than a morph-target system)<b>G. </b>All motion capture body animations need to be re-adapted, applied and re-animated on the new characters, tweaked for each one to look as good as it was before. <b>H. Finally, it has to WORK! </b>All art assets must properly coincide with naming conventions, size restrictions and/or other limitations to the EQ2 game engine. Depending on each game studios level of organization, this may not be a quick task. Often times the only way of seeing if something is Engine-Ready is by importing it and checking in-game. And if it ISNT, well, you just cost yourself tons of time and now have to go back to the art team and get it fixed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Takes FOR-EVA!!!To help put things into perspective, Next-Gen quality game studios may give an artist 1-2 months to create a Main Character for a game, and at the end of which time they want a fully modelled, textured and rigged character for a game (secondary characters may only get 2-3 weeks to complete). The length of time will depend on the target quality of the character, among other variables like the Game Platform you are developing for etc.They are undertaking not only remodelling 12-14(?) (i havent counted lately) races but also models for both MALE and Female of each race, combining them into a more streamlined model system using (entirely new?) models on their new skeletal rig. Lots of work!Don't rush the art team!What would you rather see? WoW-style crappy characters in a few  months? orAssassins Creed style ultra realistic characters after a longer wait <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />*crosses fingers and hopes the end results will be comparable to AC 8-)*(btw to the art team, if I have made an error in my descriptions  and explanations please correct me, I'm mostly extrapolating and assuming here 8-))---<img src="http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/Arctura000/Skree-sig2008a.jpg" alt="" border="0" />

[Cragger]

I doubt anyone would say its not alot of work. However what is valid to say is that its not so much work that it should have taken over 2 years now and produced no visible results. So its obviously a project that has been put on the back burner numerous times, I suspect its something the art team get to work on in between other deadlines on things such as new art content for expansions. The delay in class epics this expansion shows that most likely that area of EQ2 development is probably not that heavily staffed.What gets me the most though is the total lack of any information and sense of progress given out by those in care of EQ2's state of health. The thread of top concerns was a great start, it looked for a change that some interaction on long standing issues was finally going to be given. But after the final tally its now sat cold and dormant. I'm not an AoC doomsayer but I would think that during a time like this it would be important to vitalize your current customer base by informing them of what is coming and where things are going. But since that other game launched there hasn't been much coming our way. Which is leading some into a feeling of hopelessness or that its a lost cause I think. At this rate its going to be one lonely road till November and The Shadow Oddessy.

[Mr. Dawki]

<cite>Striothia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not an AoC doomsayer but I would think that during a time like this it would be important to vitalize your current customer base by informing them of what is coming and where things are going. But since that other game launched there hasn't been much coming our way. Which is leading some into a feeling of hopelessness or that its a lost cause I think. At this rate its going to be one lonely road till November and The Shadow Oddessy.</blockquote>QFE! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD QFE!!! (for lack of a better acronym) QFE AGAIN!

[Kitsune286]

This won't affect Gnoll models, Mr. Dawkins. ;pOh, say hi to Mort for me too.I do hope they don't break anything with the revamp, though. I would be soreley dissapointed if my digigrade Rats became plantigrade.

[Risiko]

<cite>Striothia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I doubt anyone would say its not alot of work. However what is valid to say is that its not so much work that it should have taken over 2 years now and produced no visible results. So its obviously a project that has been put on the back burner numerous times, I suspect its something the art team get to work on in between other deadlines on things such as new art content for expansions. The delay in class epics this expansion shows that most likely that area of EQ2 development is probably not that heavily staffed.What gets me the most though is the total lack of any information and sense of progress given out by those in care of EQ2's state of health. The thread of top concerns was a great start, it looked for a change that some interaction on long standing issues was finally going to be given. But after the final tally its now sat cold and dormant. I'm not an AoC doomsayer but I would think that during a time like this it would be important to vitalize your current customer base by informing them of what is coming and where things are going. But since that other game launched there hasn't been much coming our way. Which is leading some into a feeling of hopelessness or that its a lost cause I think. At this rate its going to be one lonely road till November and The Shadow Oddessy.</blockquote><p>I hear what you are saying, but at the same time, I would like to point out that EQ2 gamers should be thankful that they don't get treated like Vanguard:SoH gamers.  At least EQ2 gamers get to look forward to major new game content at least once a year.  Vanguard gamers get to look forward to rediculously stupid content updates once in a blue moon.  The latest one they released was nothing more then a faction grind that in the end gives you the ability to ride a mount that was just some animal model already used in the game.  The mounts don't even have saddles or tack.</p><p> In other words, thank your stars that SoE actually still considers EQ2 a viable product.  Other members of the SoE MMORPG group don't even get that consideration.</p>

[Qandor]

<cite>zip wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> In other words, thank your stars that SoE actually still considers EQ2 a viable product.  Other members of the SoE MMORPG group don't even get that consideration.</p></blockquote>Some times I wonder if they actually do feel it is a viable product going forward. The population is waning, that is fairly obvious. Each new game that launches grabs more people from EQ2. They obviously haven't thrown much effort into this skeletal revamp from what they've shown and it does not sound like it is even visible on the horizon. You mention Vanguard which I beta-tested and played for over a year. What you see in Vanguard is the product of the minimal subscriber base. As EQ2 bleeds further we may see further reduction in the assets allocated to it as well. I guess they are pinning their hopes on The Agency - good luck with that.

[Nakaru-Nitepaw]

youtube(DOT)com/watch?v=HokbrASX-uoI noticed this video on YouTube which shows alpha stage E3 footage of EQ2. In the video the advertiser mentioned the armor was already supposed to be set to scale with each race. He showed a human then a ogre both wearing the same armor. I thought it was pretty good. I guess a lot of things got scrapped before release. The armor that human female wore was pretty awesome. Now that (6 years?) time has passed i think it might be ok to bring some of that stuff back. I'm sure most people have dual cores (except me lol).

[Chay]

To be honest. I thought they would have the revamp done by now, I was expecting it in the first quarter of 2008. The game is losing steam (just my opinion) and doesn't really have a direction. Well with the exception of "keep the addicts coming back".The more they just slap random colors on reused textures the closer they get to WoW. While I appreciate the size of the task, I don't understand how they can expect people to keep forking money over each month.I think we all want a visually stimulating game with equally stimulating game play.

[-Arctura-]

(( it all comes down to this...I am guessing, at some point the execs got together and made a decision.New game? (EQ3?) Or just totally revamp the characters to stay current and competitive with next-gen games?They chose the latter. Its still a massive undertaking, but less so than a completely new game.(again, just a theory <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)---<img src="http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/Arctura000/Skree-sig2008a.jpg" alt="" border="0" />

[LordFyre]

<cite>Chayna wrote:</cite><blockquote>To be honest. I thought they would have the revamp done by now, I was expecting it in the first quarter of 2008. The game is losing steam (just my opinion) and doesn't really have a direction. Well with the exception of "keep the addicts coming back".The more they just slap random colors on reused textures the closer they get to WoW. While I appreciate the size of the task, I don't understand how they can expect people to keep forking money over each month.I think we all want a visually stimulating game with equally stimulating game play. </blockquote>But, that is the problem isn't.  Currently no such game exists (since <b>AoC</b> is proving to be a disappointment.)

[Cragger]

There will probably never be another Everquest sequel. At least not using the title Everquest, there is potential for a game based in the world of Norrath but Smed said himself in an interview a couple years ago that the biggest mistake they made in this game was calling it Everquest 2. And the reality is if you've been keeping an eye on Sony activities and Smed's own blogs and announcements that he wants to take the company in a new direction toward new markets of cash for ingame items/status/whatnot and younger demographs of 12-14 etc. Something they have already successfully pushed into EQ and EQ2 with the LoN loot cards.So an EQ or EQ2 traditional RPG style of game I don't see happening especially since Sony has been batting below average the last few years with Planetsides eventual burnout, Vanguards stillbirth, and Pirates of the Burning Seas never quite leaving port. Also if your wondering why I'm using Sony instead of SOE well its because things are in flux in the company of Sony as SOE has been placed under SCE (Sony Computer Entertainment) while at the same time contracting NCsoft to develop MMOs for the Playstation 3. So until things settle out I will just use the parent corp name.Now having said that I will also say nothing rules out an EQ3 style game happening in some form some day, under a new name. Fallout series seemed all but dead and its having a major revival under bethsoft. And I for one would welcome a new RPGmmo carrying the Everquest or Norrathian name especially if it drew on lessons learned from both EQ games and combined the good elements of both.

[Cragger]

<cite>LordFyre wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chayna wrote:</cite><blockquote>To be honest. I thought they would have the revamp done by now, I was expecting it in the first quarter of 2008. The game is losing steam (just my opinion) and doesn't really have a direction. Well with the exception of "keep the addicts coming back".The more they just slap random colors on reused textures the closer they get to WoW. While I appreciate the size of the task, I don't understand how they can expect people to keep forking money over each month.I think we all want a visually stimulating game with equally stimulating game play. </blockquote>But, that is the problem isn't.  Currently no such game exists (since <b>AoC</b> is proving to be a disappointment.)</blockquote>Holding the Fastest selling PC game record kinda defies that statement. And no I don't play AoC and won't be playing it. But my dislike doesn't mean hundreds of thousands or even millions dislike it as well. Because while we are here for our enjoyments these companies make these games for a profit so if you selling product and growing your doing good. Longevity comes in a balance of our enjoyment and minimizing their expenses.

[Nakaru-Nitepaw]

I don't personally see a EQ3 happening, but who knows. So far there is 3 EQ online games. First we have EQ1. Then they made EQOA for PS2 which takes place i think 1000 years before EQ1? Then EQ2 is set 500 years later. If we have EQ3, it will most likely be another 1000 years. It may hit a timeline similar to our modern real world lol. I can just see all ratonga street gangs toting pistols. People forgot about magic and began focusing on technology and nano bots instead. Sounds kinda scary to me. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Deadrus]

<cite>Mirander_1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I got a question on this, Gnobrin; <div></div><div>I recall hearing sometime during Kunark's development, that the Sarnaks use the new, in-development skeletal system, rather than the old one, is this correct?  Also, the new version of the male Human was apparently shown off at the previous fan-faire, from what I heard.</div><div></div><div>Both these things would suggest to me that this new system isn't necessarily something that needs to put in all at once, but rather it's possible for it to be brought into the live game in a piecemeal fashion.</div><div></div><div>Is there any reason why the skeletal system couldn't be implemented on a race-by-race, gender-by-gender basis, as each race/gender is completed?  Doing so would at least provide reassurance to the playerbase that progress is being made on this; and as this revamp is supposedly making visible improvements to the character models, we would start seeing the overall artistic quality of the game continually improving.</div></blockquote>I like this idea but they can say they added the new skeleton/model but we wont truly see any new armors untill all of the races/genders are done. So if they put out one race/gender every  live updates. (for instance male human lu 46 and female human lu 47) It would take another 2 and 1/2 or more years for them to implement all the races and genders and another 2 or 3 expantoins with the same old armor with a new color painted on. At this point Soe either needs to put out EQ3 or actualy decide to take this skeletal revamp off the back burner and get the engine optomised. I think many of us would rather see eq2 finaly start to look better and run better on our technology then get new content. Things REALLY need to be fixed badly once its fix please give us more content. I look forward to the EQ2 expantoins every year but if i get EQ2 with better performance this year with better looking and more variety in armor i think I would be happy with that.

[Lady Uaelr]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HokbrASX-uo&feature=related" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hokb...feature=related</a><div></div><div>If EQ2 looked like this  and had armor like this no one would even consider other games. </div><div></div><div>I really enjoy the game - no point is rehashing the fact that I was sold based on these armors and looks.</div><div></div><div>But, if there is a chance SOE Devs actually read these posts - you guys can breathe new life into this game and become better and more popular than WOW or AOC.</div><div></div><div>I don't plan to leave but if you guys can give us anything like this so many people would be happy and even more would come back.</div><div></div><div>Everyone just about has duo core technology - so help your loyal customers.</div><div></div><div></div>

[LordFyre]

<cite>Lady Uaelrea wrote:</cite><blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HokbrASX-uo&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hokb...feature=related</a> <div></div><div>If EQ2 looked like this  and had armor like this no one would even consider other games. </div><div></div><div>I really enjoy the game - no point is rehashing the fact that I was sold based on these armors and looks.</div></blockquote><p>Actually, on the highest quality setting, a lot of EQ2 armors do look like that.  </p><p>And, with the female armor suit, (while I agree with you) the preferences of the EQ2 community are fairly evenly split.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /> </p><p>(Of course, with the appearance slots, the players who want that kind of armor would be able to have it, without forcing it on others . . . )</p>

[Lady Uaelr]

But that is what is great- people with different views and tastes.<div></div><div>That is fine - it's good and diversity is good.</div><div></div><div>I do play on high quality and realize the textures are there and are amazing - that is why I would never play any other game.</div><div></div><div>But the styles is what I meant to say.</div><div></div><div>I have not seen any plate wearer using a breastplate like that - that is amazing.</div><div></div><div>As for the female - that is just incredible art work.</div><div></div><div>If they could rework even the female formal ensemble and use the top with a matching pants or get some of that vampire looking clothes that would be amazing.</div><div></div><div>Can you imagine a fabled robe in the design of the female ensemble or male ensemble in all black with runes.</div><div></div><div>They have the art and the designs - they just need to rework them some.</div>

[TheSummoned]

<cite>Lady Uaelrea wrote:</cite><blockquote><div>Everyone just about has duo core technology - so help your loyal customers.</div><div></div><div></div></blockquote>Everyone doesn't have core duo processors. A lot of the people have computers that are 3-5 years old. I myself have a computer that's in it's 7th year.Anyway, the skeletal revamp was in the works for just about 3 years now, the time it takes to build a completely new game! And it's still not even on the horizon? That's complete bullocks.If they were throwing out alpha human models 2 years ago, why is it still not finished? How? The skeletal models revamp is so streched out now that I very much doubt that it'll be able to help EQ2 a whole lot in bringing back a lot of lost subscribers. Especially if they screw up yet another expansion pack.And with the miriad of MMOs that will be coming out/have just launched in the next year and a half, the time they're taking to complete these skeletons could as well prove to be fatal and could have very few people to show it to left.One thing, though, is that they could as well use the new skeletons for future MMOs, which can be a good thing.Atleast I got something out of the free 60 days that was given to my (canceled) subscription.

[-Arctura-]

<cite>TheSummoned wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Anyway, the skeletal revamp was in the works for just about 3 years now, the time it takes to build a completely new game! And it's still not even on the horizon? That's complete bullocks.</blockquote>(( The skeletal revamp was only announced in 2007 around this time of year. It has only been in the works for about a year...Games these days take a long time too, depending on the studio. Assassin's Creed was something like 4-5 years from inception? GTA4 was a good 4 years? Bioshock like 5+?And in all the time taken for an entire game to be made, you can rest assured there were BOATLOADS more people working on things in a brand-new game title release as opposed to right now with a skeletal revamp of an already-released title.---<img src="http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/Arctura000/Skree-sig2008a.jpg" alt="" border="0" />

[Mirander_1]

<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TheSummoned wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Anyway, the skeletal revamp was in the works for just about 3 years now, the time it takes to build a completely new game! And it's still not even on the horizon? That's complete bullocks.</blockquote>(( The skeletal revamp was only announced in 2007 around this time of year. It has only been in the works for about a year...</blockquote>I'm vaguely recalling news of the revamp first cropping up not long after the release of Kingdom of Sky (or maybe around the release of Fallen Dynasty); around about the time when people were asking how it could take so long for twenty-four class hats to be made.

[TheSummoned]

I admit, it's closer to 2 years they 3 years.Here's the earliest Gallenite post mentioning it I bothered finding and it's labeled 2006:<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=266941#2936692" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">LINKY</a>And even then he mentions that they've mentioned it a while back, so it's been in the works closer to 2 years. Should it take them that long? I don't know, but I would expect they'd have enough finished that they'd make a bit more noise about it and not still preach that it's "a long ways away".

[Transen]

Maybe I'm just seeing something that's not there but, it seems to me that the reason things are taking so long is cause they're also trying to retro-fit the current armors around these new skeletons.  The problem is that a vast majority if not all of them were designed with the current skeletal system in place and that each body size and in some cases, even body type has it's own armor texture.From what I understand, the original idea of the skeletal revamp was nothing more than to make a change that would require only 1 armor texture for all body types.  This means that each armor texture would have to morph flawlessly as the skeletons changed in size and shape so that we, the end-users wouldn't notice any changes (except maybe a performance boost).  Also from what I understand, armor pieces are really nothing more than 2-D pictures wrapped around invisible points within a 3-D enviroment.   My question is, how in the hell is it even possible to get a single armor piece <b>texture</b> that fits just right for humans, elves, and ogres to fit without any notice in difference on our end onto frogloks, ratonga, Iksar, and Sarnak?  I mean it just doesn't seem possible to me without major distortions.  At most, you could probably get away with making 4 pieces of the same armor.  2 for the least complicated humonoid races (humans, elves, ogres, ect..) which would be 1 texture per gender,  1 piece for ratonga, frogloks, and sarnak, and 1 piece for iksar and kerran (the other races have barely noticable differences with their genders as far as over-all body shape is concerned so could probably get away with not making additional textures for the differing genders).  Not sure how that would translate over to the SOGA-brand models but...that's my take on it./end 2_cents

[ke'la]

<cite>Striothia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LordFyre wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chayna wrote:</cite><blockquote>To be honest. I thought they would have the revamp done by now, I was expecting it in the first quarter of 2008. The game is losing steam (just my opinion) and doesn't really have a direction. Well with the exception of "keep the addicts coming back".The more they just slap random colors on reused textures the closer they get to WoW. While I appreciate the size of the task, I don't understand how they can expect people to keep forking money over each month.I think we all want a visually stimulating game with equally stimulating game play. </blockquote>But, that is the problem isn't.  Currently no such game exists (since <b>AoC</b> is proving to be a disappointment.)</blockquote>Holding the Fastest selling PC game record kinda defies that statement. And no I don't play AoC and won't be playing it. But my dislike doesn't mean hundreds of thousands or even millions dislike it as well. Because while we are here for our enjoyments these companies make these games for a profit so if you selling product and growing your doing good. Longevity comes in a balance of our enjoyment and minimizing their expenses.</blockquote>There are different kinds of Disappointment, one kind is the type your are talking about, disappointing sales or not doing well as the developer hoped... this is obviously not the case. Then there is the personal disappointment once you get it home and start playing it, now I don't know if this is the type that chayna is talking about, but it is one that is occurring, the real test of AoC is not it's initial numbers (LoTRO was record breaking too) but it's staying power, if it can maintain it's pace then it has a very good chance at being a real WoW competitor, if however if it stumbles it will just be another in a long line of also rans(I consider EQ2 to be in this category as well when compared to WoW)

[-Arctura-]

<cite>TheSummoned wrote:</cite><blockquote>I admit, it's closer to 2 years they 3 years.Here's the earliest Gallenite post mentioning it I bothered finding and it's labeled 2006:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=266941#2936692" target="_blank">LINKY</a>And even then he mentions that they've mentioned it a while back, so it's been in the works closer to 2 years. Should it take them that long? I don't know, but I would expect they'd have enough finished that they'd make a bit more noise about it and not still preach that it's "a long ways away".</blockquote>(( thing is, they arent just making new models for a new game. They are taking existing models and adapting them to a new underlying skeleton, redoing the textures and all of the geometry of the racial/gender models.Making new stuff is easy and quick.Taking existing stuff and fixing it up and modifying it takes lots of time, lots and lots of time---<img src="http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/Arctura000/Skree-sig2008a.jpg" alt="" border="0" />

[TheSummoned]

But after talking that they're working on it for just about 2 years, you'd figure they'd have something finished to present to the public and not always the same of "it's a long ways off".They've shown the alpha male model like 2 fan fairs ago ffs.

[Amphibia]

<cite>Transen wrote:</cite><blockquote>My question is, how in the hell is it even possible to get a single armor piece <b>texture</b> that fits just right for humans, elves, and ogres to fit without any notice in difference on our end onto frogloks, ratonga, Iksar, and Sarnak?  </blockquote>Yeah, I'm kinda hoping frogloks will stay pretty much the same (visually) after this revamp. Same with iksar and ratonga. Hope we don't end up with more "human-like" versions of them.

[DaFriar]

Correct me if I'm wrong please, but didn't they release some human models a while back on test or at a fan faire and everyone did nothing but bash the crap out of them? Was pretty sure the player base was up in arms about how the faces were horrible or the fingers didn't look just right, or a myriad of other statements essentially forcing the devs to return to the drawing board yet again in an attempt to please their ever-so critical playerbase? (And yes I'm one of the ever-so criticals hehe)

[Beldin_]

I really wish something would be happen here. It may sound stupid, but after trying AoC and seeing the armor there, i have at the moment no fun to log into EQ2 anymore to see the so-called armor here <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[TheSummoned]

<cite>DaFriar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Correct me if I'm wrong please, but didn't they release some human models a while back on test or at a fan faire and everyone did nothing but bash the crap out of them? Was pretty sure the player base was up in arms about how the faces were horrible or the fingers didn't look just right, or a myriad of other statements essentially forcing the devs to return to the drawing board yet again in an attempt to please their ever-so critical playerbase? (And yes I'm one of the ever-so criticals hehe)</blockquote>Quite the opposite happened. Everyone was in awe of the all the real fingers, toes and bellybuttons. And yes, they released an Alpha build of the human male model.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">For Iksar I hope they fix the shoulders, the way they look like right now, they are always stuck mid-shrug, it is annoying. Would love more customization and animation of the frilliks as well. </span>

[DragonMaster2385]

I don't think you would have to worry about the non-humanoid races looking more human.  The Saranak use the new skeletal system and they look the least human of all.  Sometimes when you zone and your character pops, you zone standing erect.  I assume this is because it is based on the human skeletal system.

[Dragowulf]

Let me reiterate that the revamp shouldn't change the model graphics.  This is a revamp to change the skeletal structure internally to allow more armor to fit and make it easier for them to make stuff.  They have already stated that they want to keep the same model graphic looks as much as possible.  This will however make them be able to make emotes, armor, and different emotions faster and more efficiently.

[ke'la]

<cite>Dragowulf2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let me reiterate that the revamp shouldn't change the model graphics.  This is a revamp to change the skeletal structure internally to allow more armor to fit and make it easier for them to make stuff.  They have already stated that they want to keep the same model graphic looks as much as possible.  This will however make them be able to make emotes, armor, and different emotions faster and more efficiently.</blockquote>And its this that is causing it to take so long, if they did not care about keeping the models looking obstensivly the same as they do now, they would have been done long ago. It takes far more time and effort to Upgrade something then it does to blow it up and start over.

[Vindicare]

Whenever I have taken a break from EQ2 for 6 months or a year, first thing I check is this forum for the progress on the skeleton revamp (second thing I check is whether they finally got rid of the fugly SOGA models).And there's always a thread about it on page #1. And it always says that they are working on it with no ETA or any kind of progress report.By now I think that people who believe that this update is actually going to happen, also believe that Duke Nukem Forever will be released eventually.Anyway, see what happens if you start out with a crappy engine. Fixing that issue beforehand would have taken a few extra months. Fixing it now takes years (in which they could have written a completely new engine, if only they hadn't the downward-compatibility-problem) and probably isn't going to happen at all.Too bad.

[Finora]

<cite>DaFriar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Correct me if I'm wrong please, but didn't they release some human models a while back on test or at a fan faire and everyone did nothing but bash the crap out of them? Was pretty sure the player base was up in arms about how the faces were horrible or the fingers didn't look just right, or a myriad of other statements essentially forcing the devs to return to the drawing board yet again in an attempt to please their ever-so critical playerbase? (And yes I'm one of the ever-so criticals hehe)</blockquote>That sounds more like the EQ1 dev teams release of the new eq1 human models on test server. They got a lot of negative feedback about those.

[-Arctura-]

<cite>Vindicare wrote:</cite><blockquote>(second thing I check is whether they finally got rid of the fugly SOGA models).</blockquote>(( hey now, speak for your own race. Soga ogres > Original Ogres---<img src="http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/Arctura000/Skree-sig2008a.jpg" alt="" border="0" />

[Vindicare]

<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vindicare wrote:</cite><blockquote>(second thing I check is whether they finally got rid of the fugly SOGA models).</blockquote>(( hey now, speak for your own race. Soga ogres > Original Ogres</blockquote>(( Speak for yourself.[[ I hate everything associated with Manganime with a passion. {{ Especially since it just doesn't fit into the world of Everquest at all. So in no way could I ever consider "Soga > Original" for *any* race.

[Beldin_]

Hmmm .. i like Mangas/Anime .. but i also hate SOGA because they are in no way anime-like, they are just plain ugly.

[Chay]

Sorry but SOGA has nothing in common with Manga/Anime. I'm not sure how anyone could think that. If SOGA looked like Manga/Anime I'd probably like it better than the deformed abominations that are SOGA.

[Doggi]

Is this a thread about the "skeleton rework" or is it about "I hate SOGA so [Removed for Content] much!"?<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />personally, I can't wait for the skeleton revamp, but I'm fine with the current models, wether it be SOE or SOGA, until the rework is done.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Transen]

Well topic derailments are quite common on message boards...or any form of communication for that matter...Anyways, yeah..they should have been done by now given the amount of time from the first time it was mentioned up until this point...unless they've been busy with other <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=330" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">matters</a> deemed more <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=419773" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">urgent</a>. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Amphibia]

<cite>Vindicare wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vindicare wrote:</cite><blockquote>(second thing I check is whether they finally got rid of the fugly SOGA models).</blockquote>(( hey now, speak for your own race. Soga ogres > Original Ogres</blockquote>(( Speak for yourself.[[ I hate everything associated with Manganime with a passion. {{ Especially since it just doesn't fit into the world of Everquest at all. So in no way could I ever consider "Soga > Original" for *any* race.</blockquote>You know, that's actually just your <b>opinion</b>. Not a fact. I hope you understand the difference.I can't believe I'd ever agree with Arctura about anything, but this time I do. And I also use SOGA for my male high elf, because I think he looks way better that way. I think at least half of my guildies also prefer the alternate model on their character. So does quite a lot of other people, I mean... just look at people's signatures, and you'll see that the SOGA models are widely used and very popular. To just "get rid of them" now would be extremely stupid, and I doubt SOE would even consider it.

[TheSummoned]

Who cares what everyone prefers to use, it's just that; preference!Just drop this dead horse beating immediatly, there's almost nothing that's left of the horse, for God's sake!

[LordFyre]

<cite>TheSummoned wrote:</cite><blockquote>Who cares what everyone prefers to use, it's just that; preference!Just drop this dead horse beating immediatly, there's almost nothing that's left of the horse, for God's sake!</blockquote>No.  Because when we stop beating the carcass, we will have moved on to another game.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 

[AngusMcLachlan]

<p>we could always move back to beating on the BeastLord carcas....   [thwack]</p><p> course, i hope they take their time wiht the skelly revamp and do it > 75% right</p>

[-Arctura-]

<cite>TheSummoned wrote:</cite><blockquote>Who cares what everyone prefers to use, it's just that; preference!Just drop this dead horse beating immediatly, there's almost nothing that's left of the horse, for God's sake!</blockquote>(( I laffed IRL!---<img src="http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/Arctura000/Skree-sig2008a.jpg" alt="" border="0" />

[Qandor]

<cite>AngusMcLachlan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> course, i hope they take their time wiht the skelly revamp and do it > 75% right</p></blockquote>Have no fear, they certainly are taking their time. Your grandchildren will love the skeletal revamp I'm sure.

[Amphibia]

<cite>Qandor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>AngusMcLachlan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> course, i hope they take their time wiht the skelly revamp and do it > 75% right</p></blockquote>Have no fear, they certainly are taking their time. Your grandchildren will love the skeletal revamp I'm sure.</blockquote><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Mirander_1]

<cite>Dragowulf2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let me reiterate that the revamp shouldn't change the model graphics.  This is a revamp to change the skeletal structure internally to allow more armor to fit and make it easier for them to make stuff.  They have already stated that they want to keep the same model graphic looks as much as possible.  This will however make them be able to make emotes, armor, and different emotions faster and more efficiently.</blockquote>Quick correction here; from what's been said, there are at least some cosmetic changes going in with this revamp.  I've seen mention of them adding-in the little things that are missing from the current models, like belly-buttons, and things like that.  Hopefully, while they're at it, they'll try to de-uglify some of the models that really need it (I'm looking at you, human characters).

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">I'm just going to repeat, Soga has issues and Original have issues.Soga is somewhat stick-like in human females and original human females look like they are on DRUGS and DOWNS SYNDROME.  <b>SOGA=/=Manga Anime</b>BOTH Need reworking.Bah is jonesing  for sleep here to tired to mess with this.</span>

[ke'la]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">I'm just going to repeat, Soga has issues and Original have issues.Soga is somewhat stick-like in human females and original human females look like they are on DRUGS and DOWNS SYNDROME.  <b>SOGA=/=Manga Anime</b>BOTH Need reworking.Bah is jonesing  for sleep here to tired to mess with this.</span></blockquote>Just an FYI but  ! stands for Not in parlance where there is no ≠ sign available so you it would have been easier to go !=. I am just saying. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">Was more likely to be understood.<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnnTgi7ntoE&amp;feature=related" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">BTW for for a frame of Reference This is what an Anime MMO would probably look like </a>(Fanwork? of MoH) and SOGA it is not. </span>

[Amphibia]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">Was more likely to be understood.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnnTgi7ntoE&amp;feature=related" target="_blank">BTW for for a frame of Reference This is what an Anime MMO would probably look like </a>(Fanwork? of MoH) and SOGA it is not. </span></blockquote>That has to be some of the most hideous music I have ever heard in my life.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">What you don't like caramelldanse? :þbut it's addictive, you will become one with the caramelldanse <b>(Note the video did not have the real dance move) </b><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQxzumHN4ps&feature=related" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">I am evil</a><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIls2e2eU7c" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Hehe sooo evil</a> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIls2e2eU7c" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">And even MORE EVIL </a>And Most Evil (Oops Sorry Can't find any imaged of Richard from Looking for group Caramelldanse) </span><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[mo0rbid]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">What you don't like caramelldanse? :þbut it's addictive, you will become one with the caramelldanse <b>(Note the video did not have the real dance move) </b><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQxzumHN4ps&feature=related" target="_blank">I am evil</a><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIls2e2eU7c" target="_blank">Hehe sooo evil</a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIls2e2eU7c" target="_blank">And even MORE EVIL </a>And Most Evil (Oops Sorry Can't find any imaged of Richard from Looking for group Caramelldanse) </span><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>karamelldansen is a [Removed for Content] swedish song, why do the asians make 235654567 movies about it?

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">Because they CAN lol, There are many anime fans in the US and there must be a lot of Swedish fans in Japan. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></span>

[Amphibia]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">What you don't like caramelldanse? :þbut it's addictive, you will become one with the caramelldanse <b>(Note the video did not have the real dance move) </b><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQxzumHN4ps&feature=related" target="_blank">I am evil</a><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIls2e2eU7c" target="_blank">Hehe sooo evil</a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIls2e2eU7c" target="_blank">And even MORE EVIL </a>And Most Evil (Oops Sorry Can't find any imaged of Richard from Looking for group Caramelldanse) </span><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="color: #00cc00;"> </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Yikes! But... I don't want to become one with the caramell dance! You could torture people with that stuff, I'm sure :p

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">Yes I could and I know where on Youtube to find them.....</span> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Transen]

I'm just waiting for them to change the current /dance animation to that....now THERE's some evil.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">Maybe for the Arisai if anyone deserves that dance it's them! lol</span>

[-Arctura-]

(( oh yeah, since someone mentioned Belly buttons, thats a Texture issue.Re-doing TEXTURES in addition to bone rigs and skinning for 16 races x 2 genders x 2 visual sets (soga/non) = 64 complete character rigs, texture sets and skin modifiers. Also have to double check all animations and facial states to verify things went according to plan. (GL with that)64 characters Re-done from whatever exists right now. (they have to retain the visual feel to make them basically the same looking as before)Thats more characters than most RPGS even, that have like 12 characters and 20-30 monster model types with swapped out textures.(not to mention the SOGA characters were made overseas, not by the SOE art team, so they are re-doing someone ELSES work lol (unless they have the SOGA guys redoing their toons also)So yeah, people, complain more, it wont help anything. This is a HUGE and HEAVY project here, im proud of them for undertaking it.Redoing stuff or taking half-made work and finishing it is the HARDEST.  Doing stuff all over again from scratch is easy.Most AAA game titles give their character artists 1-2 months to make the main character of a game. Thats 64 months. However, I am assuming there are more than 1 artist(s) on the character art team. Lets say there are 3-4 senior character artists and a several juniors or underlings. thats still 2 to 2.5 years work minimum.Now, lets be optimistic and assume they have a character art team of 10+.... Now we are getting somewhere, and can hopefully see this revamp done at least before the end of the year.Im GUESSING at this point they will be introducing it with the next expansion since its ALOT of new information to just drop in a patch. It involves everyones character, and the expansion is coming up soon anyways.As usual I'm just extrapolating mainly and not 100% about any of this. if any Devs can correct me, by all means please do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />---<img src="http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/Arctura000/Skree-sig2008a.jpg" alt="" border="0" />

[Drager]

i thought they were creating this new skeleton and getting rid of the old model and the soga model

[TheSummoned]

There won't be a "soga" and "classic" model anymore. And it's more like:((elves/fae/asari) + human + half elf + ratonga + iksar + ogre + troll + kittens)) x 2 genders = 16 models. YAY!I put all the elves and fae and asari in one pot since their models are basically the same, with different heads and colours. *shrug*

[Cragger]

<cite>TheSummoned wrote:</cite><blockquote>There won't be a "soga" and "classic" model anymore. And it's more like:((elves/fae/asari) + human + half elf + ratonga + iksar + ogre + troll + kittens)) x 2 genders = 16 models. YAY!I put all the elves and fae and asari in one pot since their models are basically the same, with different heads and colours. *shrug*</blockquote>No, Unless your privy to more knowledge then has been confirmed release of information. The work that was/is being done was redoing the skeleton of the currently player characters. Not the skin (polygons) of the model or what you see the textures painted on. You do not need a skeleton or 'bones' system to create a model. A skeleton is purely used to determine where and how joints bend and move as well as tying into any physics system. Currently SOGA models and the original models use the same underlying skeleton. This is why the SOGA models to many have odd postures and proportions because the model had to hooked to this skeleton for animations. The problem the supposed project was to address was that for each every race/gender in EQ2 the underlying skeleton was different in ratios and proportions. This creates the problem when doing additional layers on the model (armor/clothing) that for each different skeleton the armor had to be hand tweaked to an extent to make sure it was bending in the proper places and to eliminate clipping issues. By creating a new skeleton that was identical save being rescaled or morphed for as many of the races as possible and of course a minimum of two for each gender (though I doubt they will be away with such as the beast races are hugely disproportionate to the 'human' races which includes elfs) it means new model layers will not have to be hand tweaked to the extent of before. Depending on how its done new skeletons could be placed inside the existing character models without you even noticing, with the exception of how it moves. So in terms of straight visual change it could have near negligible impact.The reality of it though is that while a new skeleton that would reduce workload to finally do real new model layers (which if you haven't noticed all armor still uses the original model layers from launch just re-textured) and open up the possibility for more variety and non conformity. It also has the just as likely potential to result in even more conformity and less diversification because now you can place work-hours on the job to get the same net output. And as each  model no longer would have need for hand tooling why reintroduce that by adding diversification per race (Racial armor being something I sorely mis from EQLive.)But that is the price to pay when you do armor/clothing as an actual 3d object instead of flat textures. Such is the reason that games such as Lineage 2 / Everquest Live, etc have such 'wardrobes'. Most of the armor is simply mapped to the character model and not as a layer over that model.

[Nakaru-Nitepaw]

I saw a ratonga version of carameldansen once lol. I almost died of cuteness, but yea i think the song is getting bit too much usage these days.

[Elepian]

<cite>Lady Uaelrea wrote:</cite><blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HokbrASX-uo&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hokb...feature=related</a> <div></div><div>If EQ2 looked like this  and had armor like this no one would even consider other games. </div><div></div><div>I really enjoy the game - no point is rehashing the fact that I was sold based on these armors and looks.</div><div></div><div>But, if there is a chance SOE Devs actually read these posts - you guys can breathe new life into this game and become better and more popular than WOW or AOC.</div><div></div><div>I don't plan to leave but if you guys can give us anything like this so many people would be happy and even more would come back.</div><div></div><div>Everyone just about has duo core technology - so help your loyal customers.</div><div></div><div></div></blockquote>Were the Character Models Revamped ? I don't ever remember any of the Races looking they way they looked in this video. The Ogres were never that tall, and the Humans Never have looked like that. What happened to the actual look of the player models like this? Did Sony do away with it as time progressed?

[Qandor]

<cite>Elepian@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lady Uaelrea wrote:</cite><blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HokbrASX-uo&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hokb...feature=related</a> <div></div><div>If EQ2 looked like this  and had armor like this no one would even consider other games. </div><div></div><div>I really enjoy the game - no point is rehashing the fact that I was sold based on these armors and looks.</div><div></div><div>But, if there is a chance SOE Devs actually read these posts - you guys can breathe new life into this game and become better and more popular than WOW or AOC.</div><div></div><div>I don't plan to leave but if you guys can give us anything like this so many people would be happy and even more would come back.</div><div></div><div>Everyone just about has duo core technology - so help your loyal customers.</div><div></div><div></div></blockquote>Were the Character Models Revamped ? I don't ever remember any of the Races looking they way they looked in this video. The Ogres were never that tall, and the Humans Never have looked like that. What happened to the actual look of the player models like this? Did Sony do away with it as time progressed?</blockquote><p>They were never in the game at launch. Supposedly SoE had a revelation that the performance impact for those models and armors was too great, so they shipped with pretty much what you see today. The dreaded Soga models came later.</p><p>Couple of telling things in that video though. First of all the narrator pitches that the armor can be utilized across all humanoid type models and the way he makes it sound, it will not be a big deal to do this. He actually sounds like he is bragging about their ability to do so. Come release though, they sang a different toon. Then it was every armor was a meticulous task to refit for every single model and gender. Post release it was a bridge too far to get it done.</p><p>Interesting bit about the armor with writing on it though. That never made release either. If it had, deciphering the wrriting would have yielded, "this is the only armor model you will see for many years - get used to it".</p>

[Snowdonia]

Here's another one for the revamp rumor mill. I hear that we'd get one body and a choice between original or SOGA for the faces. Whether that was wishful thinking or not, who can tell. /shrug

[Elepian]

<p>Wow. Thats kind of lame. To think when I was on EQ 1, and was listening to all of the folks there talking about how they needed to get better PCs to run EQ 2.  I'll admit I am happy with EQ2 and won't be going anywhere anytime soon, (4 year vet here) It would be nice to see graphic changes, like spell effects that tie in with the spell form itself, maybe make spells a bit more powerful ( when two are combined).  Give us a means in which to put more than one spell together to create something all-together Unique.. for a time lol. <sighs> Ah, i dunno. I do hope they bring these models into the game however. It would be nice to actually see an armor difference between the two genders for a change. Hell even tie it into Race for what the armor could look like, EverQuest 1 does it like that. Anyhow.. skeletal rework.  What exactly would that change? Just the Skellys throughout Norrath? or would it change players too depending on what they did? </p><p>And for that spell thingy.. I know we have Heroic Opportunities, but I'm talking about stacking spells to make a nice, doh nevermind! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Chay]

<cite>Linuky@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is this a thread about the "skeleton rework" or is it about "I hate SOGA so [I cannot control my vocabulary] much!"?<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />personally, I can't wait for the skeleton revamp, but I'm fine with the current models, wether it be SOE or SOGA, until the rework is done.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Ummm... because its a concern. Since they haven't been very forthwith on details. I suppose those that are happy with the state of the game as is should be admired for their ability to accept the limitations. Me? I want and expected more. If I could blend aspects of AOC and EQ2 design I'd be happier. Plus I get annoyed when people say SOGA looks like Anime characters. That's like saying a toad looks like a cat. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Noaani]

<p>I have come to a conclusion, based on all information avalible about this skeletal revamp from SoE employees from the day it was first announced up until the present.</p><p>It does not exist.</p><p>At the very least, it died out when Lotus left EQ2, worst case is it was never started.</p><p>My assumption is that it has been used as a means to keep players quiet about the lack of new armour art. Every time this is bought up, an SoE employee (or SoE fanboi/fangurl) trumps all with the "skeletal revamp" card, but this revamp never materializes.</p><p>The 'fact' that the Sanark model is based off the new human skeleton is unfounded as far as I am concerned, and other than statements from SoE employees, we have no reason to believe this.</p><p>Think what you want about it, but unless I see results of it go live, I am working on the assumption that it will never happen, and either was never going to happen, or SoE simply do not have the staff to finish it off.</p>

[Snowdonia]

If that were true Noaani, they wouldn't have showcased the human male model at last years E3 or whatever gaming convention that was. Josgar has posted stuff showing it.

[TorrynWoodsrunner]

<p>Ok, first, just because I don't recall seeing anyone really explain this, a couple of definitions for those who don't already know this:</p><p>Mesh - This is the 'skin' of any 3D object, be it player figure, monster figure, or object. Think of it as the wireframe of a paper mache statue.</p><p>Polygon - The individual multi-sided shapes that make up a mesh. The holes in the wireframe.</p><p>Texture - This is essentially the paintjob that gives a mesh its distinctive look. This would be the actual paper mache and paint you put over the wireframe.</p><p>Skeleton - In 3D terms, this is what determines what part of a mesh moves, in what direction(s), and how far. I won't burden the reader with the fully detailed explanations, but for this explanation, consider this the wooden dowel rods and hinges inside your paper mache wireframe.</p><p>Ok, we good there? Good, moving on.</p><p>Some of you are familiar with a 3D art program called Poser. I know you are, I've seen your art. I've posted my own now and then. For those who aren't familiar, Poser allows the end user to take pre-fabricated meshes, arrange them, and render art pieces such as this:</p><p><img src="http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/ChromeTiger/RTrail/rt-ch2-prelude.jpg" alt="" width="600" height="800" border="0" /></p><p>The figures, the hair (not each hair, they're more like wigs), each piece of clothing, the sword, the background plane (which holds the image of the woods) are all meshes. Now, I posted that image to make a point: Both of the main figures (the male and female) in that image are the EXACT SAME MESH AND SKELETON.</p><p>Yup, that's right. They are, when you get down to the bare essentials, the exact same construct. Here, here's a better image, showing the base figures of DAZ3D's Michael 3, Victoria 3, and The Freak:</p><p><img src="http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/ChromeTiger/Misc/unimesh.jpg" alt="" width="800" height="600" border="0" /></p><p>These are the base figures, with no clothing or textures (just some general color for clarity and work-safety). They are all in the exact same pose. All three of these figures are the exact same mesh, and use the exact same skeleton. The only difference is the initial base parameters that load with each figure, and some minor scaling adjustments to the skeleton of each (you can see where Victoria's arms clip into her body...that's because the pose used was designed around the male skeleton base parameters). The differences are defined as 'morph parameters', or simply 'morphs'. They are more or less (actually more) the exact same system we use to customize our facial features in EQ2 Character Creation.</p><p>The beautiful thing about this setup is that clothing for one figure (Michael 3 for example), can be adjusted to fit any other figure based on the same mesh (Victoria 3, for example). Poser users have access to programs that will even do most of the work for them. Once the base mesh of the clothing item is adjusted, morphs can be injected to closely match morphs that already exist in the base figure. For example, I have a chainmail tunic designed for Michael 3. With some adjustment of the initial load parameters, that tunic mesh can be scaled and tweaked to fit the base Victoria 3. I can then inject morphs that will accomodate changes to Victoria's morphs...larger bust, for instance...</p><p>Now, could this work in EQ2? Sure it could, just not with a mesh like this, it's way too high-polygon, and would require an insane system to render even a few players in a small room. However, a similar system could be utilized with a base figure of lower polygon density. As you can see from just the base figures above, morphing is limited only by how far polygons can be moved without extremely distorting the mesh. Figures can be made more or less muscular, athletically built, and so on. As the head is usually the highest-polygon portion of the mesh, morphs can be used to create elven, ogrish, kerran, or even iksar-like bases.</p><p>Now I'm not saying that SOE should pour resources into developing a unified mesh for EQ2...it's a little late in the game for that. I just wanted to give folks a reference point with some visuals, in case they were curious as to what everyone else was talking about. A skeletal revamp of the existing EQ2 base figures to a unified skeletal system would certainly make a large part of this feasible in its own right.</p><p>Just my two coppers...</p>

[Noaani]

<cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>If that were true Noaani, they wouldn't have showcased the human male model at last years E3 or whatever gaming convention that was. Josgar has posted stuff showing it.</blockquote><p>Lotus was on the EQ2 team during Fan Fair, which is the only time I remember them saying anything public about the supposed skeletal revamp. He was the character art lead, and the person responsible for doing this so called revamp. He did the art for the Fae, Arasai and Sarnark.</p><p>He is not longer on the EQ2 team, hence the reason I believe it is no longer being worked on.</p>

[Mysticdraco]

I just hope this isn't like the EverQuest new player models promise that they made a few years back which still hasn't come to light. I just wish we could get an official statement on what is going on, what progress (if any) has been made, and if we might be able to see the fruits of their labors (once again if there is any). I've heard a few dev's reassuring the crowds that it was coming but that it was quite a ways down the road...I just hate being kept in the dark for so long.

[ke'la]

<cite>TorrynWoodsrunner wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, first, just because I don't recall seeing anyone really explain this, a couple of definitions for those who don't already know this:</p><p>Mesh - This is the 'skin' of any 3D object, be it player figure, monster figure, or object. Think of it as the wireframe of a paper mache statue.</p><p>Polygon - The individual multi-sided shapes that make up a mesh. The holes in the wireframe.</p><p>Texture - This is essentially the paintjob that gives a mesh its distinctive look. This would be the actual paper mache and paint you put over the wireframe.</p><p>Skeleton - In 3D terms, this is what determines what part of a mesh moves, in what direction(s), and how far. I won't burden the reader with the fully detailed explanations, but for this explanation, consider this the wooden dowel rods and hinges inside your paper mache wireframe.</p><p>Ok, we good there? Good, moving on.</p><p>Some of you are familiar with a 3D art program called Poser. I know you are, I've seen your art. I've posted my own now and then. For those who aren't familiar, Poser allows the end user to take pre-fabricated meshes, arrange them, and render art pieces such as this:</p><p><img src="http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/ChromeTiger/RTrail/rt-ch2-prelude.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="600" height="800" /></p><p>The figures, the hair (not each hair, they're more like wigs), each piece of clothing, the sword, the background plane (which holds the image of the woods) are all meshes. Now, I posted that image to make a point: Both of the main figures (the male and female) in that image are the EXACT SAME MESH AND SKELETON.</p><p>Yup, that's right. They are, when you get down to the bare essentials, the exact same construct. Here, here's a better image, showing the base figures of DAZ3D's Michael 3, Victoria 3, and The Freak:</p><p><img src="http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/ChromeTiger/Misc/unimesh.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="800" height="600" /></p><p>These are the base figures, with no clothing or textures (just some general color for clarity and work-safety). They are all in the exact same pose. All three of these figures are the exact same mesh, and use the exact same skeleton. The only difference is the initial base parameters that load with each figure, and some minor scaling adjustments to the skeleton of each (you can see where Victoria's arms clip into her body...that's because the pose used was designed around the male skeleton base parameters). The differences are defined as 'morph parameters', or simply 'morphs'. They are more or less (actually more) the exact same system we use to customize our facial features in EQ2 Character Creation.</p><p>The beautiful thing about this setup is that clothing for one figure (Michael 3 for example), can be adjusted to fit any other figure based on the same mesh (Victoria 3, for example). Poser users have access to programs that will even do most of the work for them. Once the base mesh of the clothing item is adjusted, morphs can be injected to closely match morphs that already exist in the base figure. For example, I have a chainmail tunic designed for Michael 3. With some adjustment of the initial load parameters, that tunic mesh can be scaled and tweaked to fit the base Victoria 3. I can then inject morphs that will accomodate changes to Victoria's morphs...larger bust, for instance...</p><p>Now, could this work in EQ2? Sure it could, just not with a mesh like this, it's way too high-polygon, and would require an insane system to render even a few players in a small room. However, a similar system could be utilized with a base figure of lower polygon density. As you can see from just the base figures above, morphing is limited only by how far polygons can be moved without extremely distorting the mesh. Figures can be made more or less muscular, athletically built, and so on. As the head is usually the highest-polygon portion of the mesh, morphs can be used to create elven, ogrish, kerran, or even iksar-like bases.</p><p><span style="color: #66ffff;">Now I'm not saying that SOE should pour resources into developing a unified mesh for EQ2...it's a little late in the game for that. I just wanted to give folks a reference point with some visuals, in case they were curious as to what everyone else was talking about. A skeletal revamp of the existing EQ2 base figures to a unified skeletal system would certainly make a large part of this feasible in its own right.</span></p><p>Just my two coppers...</p></blockquote>Actually this is exactly what they are doing, however it is a back burner project that only seems to be worked on when there is nothing else to do.As to dev statements, there is one even in THIS THREAD that says that yes they are working on it. Also devs leaving a game does not end the project otherwise Vhalen's leaving would mean that SoE is no longer developing LORE for EQ2, or that they are no longer working on Community Relations because Blackguard and Moorguard left. When people leave a company they assign a new person to work on the project. You are also aware that SoE is based in CA and we have one of the most Draconian False advertising laws on the books right? If they state that the Sarnak use the new models(which they did) it means they advertised that, and if it is untrue, then they are in deep do do as some lawyer will be able to make MILLIONS off of them.

[Noaani]

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote>As to dev statements, there is one even in THIS THREAD that says that yes they are working on it.</blockquote><p>"The quest to unlock Frogloks is live and in game now!"</p><p>Just because a red name says it, doesn't mean its true. We all remember how the above turned out (well, I do).</p><p>Since Lotus was the main developer working on the skeletal revamp, and he is no longer on the EQ2 team, and they have not announced any sort of replacement for him, and they have stated that there are no new races planned atm (one of the major tasks for Lotus' old position), I assume that his position has not been filled, thus the skeletal revamp is on hold/canceled.</p><p>I may be wrong, I honestly hope I am, but from what I am seeing (18 months+ of promises, no results to speak of, no sign of anyone in the position that would be working on this project), the realist in me says it is not being worked on at all.</p>

[WeatherMan]

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote>As to dev statements, there is one even in THIS THREAD that says that yes they are working on it.</blockquote><p>"The quest to unlock Frogloks is live and in game now!"</p><p>Just because a red name says it, doesn't mean its true. We all remember how the above turned out (well, I do).</p><p>Since Lotus was the main developer working on the skeletal revamp, and he is no longer on the EQ2 team, and they have not announced any sort of replacement for him, and they have stated that there are no new races planned atm (one of the major tasks for Lotus' old position), I assume that his position has not been filled, thus the skeletal revamp is on hold/canceled.</p><p>I may be wrong, I honestly hope I am, but from what I am seeing (18 months+ of promises, no results to speak of, no sign of anyone in the position that would be working on this project), <b>the realist in me says it is not being worked on at all.</b></p></blockquote>I hate to say it...but I have to agree.Granted, the usual <i>modus operandi </i>of SOE is to treat us like mushrooms (any SWG players here remember what happened with NGE? ) - but this issue is exceeded only by the 'new armor and clothes' issue...mainly because without the skeletal revamp, there's no way we'll even see that issue resolved.To be honest, I would say just write this one off as another fib.  We really ought to be used to it by now.

[Mysticdraco]

Bah I completely forgot about the Gnorbin's post earlier in the topic. I guess I'm just wary of any promises that SOE makes due to what I have experienced in the past.  This isn't to say I'm not pleased with the work that SOE is doing the live events have been rather nice and I appreciate that. I know they are getting prepped for there next expansion but the talk of new armor and Guild halls are still ringing in my ears.

[Noaani]

<cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote>To be honest, I would say just write this one off as another fib.  We really ought to be used to it by now.</blockquote>In a year or so, when they finally tell us it is not going to happen, you can think back and remember you heard it here first!

[-Arctura-]

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TorrynWoodsrunner wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, first, just because I don't recall seeing anyone really explain this, a couple of definitions for those who don't already know this:</p><p>Mesh - This is the 'skin' of any 3D object, be it player figure, monster figure, or object. Think of it as the wireframe of a paper mache statue.</p><p>Polygon - The individual multi-sided shapes that make up a mesh. The holes in the wireframe.</p><p>Texture - This is essentially the paintjob that gives a mesh its distinctive look. This would be the actual paper mache and paint you put over the wireframe.</p><p>Skeleton - In 3D terms, this is what determines what part of a mesh moves, in what direction(s), and how far. I won't burden the reader with the fully detailed explanations, but for this explanation, consider this the wooden dowel rods and hinges inside your paper mache wireframe.</p><p>Ok, we good there? Good, moving on.</p><p>Some of you are familiar with a 3D art program called Poser. I know you are, I've seen your art. I've posted my own now and then. For those who aren't familiar, Poser allows the end user to take pre-fabricated meshes, arrange them, and render art pieces such as this:</p><p><img src="http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/ChromeTiger/RTrail/rt-ch2-prelude.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="600" height="800" /></p><p>The figures, the hair (not each hair, they're more like wigs), each piece of clothing, the sword, the background plane (which holds the image of the woods) are all meshes. Now, I posted that image to make a point: Both of the main figures (the male and female) in that image are the EXACT SAME MESH AND SKELETON.</p><p>Yup, that's right. They are, when you get down to the bare essentials, the exact same construct. Here, here's a better image, showing the base figures of DAZ3D's Michael 3, Victoria 3, and The Freak:</p><p><img src="http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/ChromeTiger/Misc/unimesh.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="800" height="600" /></p><p>These are the base figures, with no clothing or textures (just some general color for clarity and work-safety). They are all in the exact same pose. All three of these figures are the exact same mesh, and use the exact same skeleton. The only difference is the initial base parameters that load with each figure, and some minor scaling adjustments to the skeleton of each (you can see where Victoria's arms clip into her body...that's because the pose used was designed around the male skeleton base parameters). The differences are defined as 'morph parameters', or simply 'morphs'. They are more or less (actually more) the exact same system we use to customize our facial features in EQ2 Character Creation.</p><p>The beautiful thing about this setup is that clothing for one figure (Michael 3 for example), can be adjusted to fit any other figure based on the same mesh (Victoria 3, for example). Poser users have access to programs that will even do most of the work for them. Once the base mesh of the clothing item is adjusted, morphs can be injected to closely match morphs that already exist in the base figure. For example, I have a chainmail tunic designed for Michael 3. With some adjustment of the initial load parameters, that tunic mesh can be scaled and tweaked to fit the base Victoria 3. I can then inject morphs that will accomodate changes to Victoria's morphs...larger bust, for instance...</p><p>Now, could this work in EQ2? Sure it could, just not with a mesh like this, it's way too high-polygon, and would require an insane system to render even a few players in a small room. However, a similar system could be utilized with a base figure of lower polygon density. As you can see from just the base figures above, morphing is limited only by how far polygons can be moved without extremely distorting the mesh. Figures can be made more or less muscular, athletically built, and so on. As the head is usually the highest-polygon portion of the mesh, morphs can be used to create elven, ogrish, kerran, or even iksar-like bases.</p><p><span style="color: #66ffff;">Now I'm not saying that SOE should pour resources into developing a unified mesh for EQ2...it's a little late in the game for that. I just wanted to give folks a reference point with some visuals, in case they were curious as to what everyone else was talking about. A skeletal revamp of the existing EQ2 base figures to a unified skeletal system would certainly make a large part of this feasible in its own right.</span></p><p>Just my two coppers...</p></blockquote>Actually this is exactly what they are doing, however it is a back burner project that only seems to be worked on when there is nothing else to do.As to dev statements, there is one even in THIS THREAD that says that yes they are working on it. Also devs leaving a game does not end the project otherwise Vhalen's leaving would mean that SoE is no longer developing LORE for EQ2, or that they are no longer working on Community Relations because Blackguard and Moorguard left. When people leave a company they assign a new person to work on the project. You are also aware that SoE is based in CA and we have one of the most Draconian False advertising laws on the books right? If they state that the Sarnak use the new models(which they did) it means they advertised that, and if it is untrue, then they are in deep do do as some lawyer will be able to make MILLIONS off of them.</blockquote>(( The problem with this idea of a unified mesh is that EQ2 characters are not built this way.They are divided into seperate elements that are swapped out on-the-fly with replacement parts (Think of Lego-men, you remove their hair and replace it with a hat (since their hair wouldnt be visible under the had anyways).Poser works very inefficiently in that geometry that would normally be invisible under their clothes is still processed and rendered, not culled.Completely different setup for EQ2 and almost every MMO character model.   The characters are a large cluster of seperate body-part meshes all skinned to the same Skeletal Rig.If they welded all vertices together into a single unified mesh, and simply 'overlayed' clothing meshes on top, people's computers would grind to a halt because the un-seen skin underneath would still be rendered.They have to break the body up into parts for everything to run smoothly, and for specific body-parts to be swapped out for replacements.

[Armawk]

<p>Those poser meshes are not at all all the same mesh, they are all radically different. The skeletons ARE the same in structure, though not in proportions, but the meshes are different and the rigging has been done for each mesh individually by a designer.</p>

[DaFriar]

We'll see what Fan Faire brings this August.. if no news on the skeleton revamp I'm giving up all hope on it ever occurring.

[TorrynWoodsrunner]

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Those poser meshes are not at all all the same mesh, they are all radically different. The skeletons ARE the same in structure, though not in proportions, but the meshes are different and the rigging has been done for each mesh individually by a designer.</p></blockquote><p>From the Daz3D FAQ:</p><p>----------</p><p><b>QUESTION:</b>What is the Unimesh?<b>ANSWER:</b>In the early part of 2002, DAZ decided on transitioning from creating a unique mesh for every figure towards creating a single master mesh that could be used as a foundation for creating each new figure. This was referred to as the DAZ Unimesh. The Unimesh is a cutting edge geometry mesh with very strategically placed polygons. This androgynous mesh was created with a focus on attention to detail in the placement and concentration of polygons. The Unimesh is now used as the base for all bipedal Millennium Figures that DAZ creates. Victoria 3.0 was the first to be created from this mesh, and Michael 3.0 was the second.Each Millennium figure created from this Unimesh base receives hundreds of hours of mesh revision and blend zone work to custom tailor the Unimesh towards the particular project. Along with the work done uniquely per figure made based off the master mesh, the Unimesh itself is constantly being refined and improved in order to maintain DAZ's promise towards its customers of always providing the highest quality, most modern mesh's available anywhere.There are several advantages of transitioning to this system of production for the Millennium Figures.1) It allows us to easily make compatible UV sets for every figure based off of the Unimesh geometry. This allows the user to build huge texture libraries that function well with every figure created from the Unimesh base.2) It allows morphs to move quickly and easily from one Uinmesh-based figure to another. Even though the grouping used for Poser may differ from one Unimesh-based figure to another, each figure is compatible and therefore morph targets can easily be transferred from figure to figure in a modelling package.3) It allows DAZ to more quickly create a Millennium figure. The time required to build an entirely unique mesh can be effectively circumvented. This allows DAZ time to create an original figure in a much shorter period of time, while maintaining quality standards.Creating the DAZ Unimesh was the first of several key steps towards a more efficient production process. An increase in the quality and number of Millennium Figures available to the user is the key result.</p><p>----------</p><p>So yes, they are the same mesh. They have the same UV Maps (with individual tweaks), can use the same textures, and (with a little extra work) share the same clothing meshes.</p>

[TorrynWoodsrunner]

<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( The problem with this idea of a unified mesh is that EQ2 characters are not built this way.They are divided into seperate elements that are swapped out on-the-fly with replacement parts (Think of Lego-men, you remove their hair and replace it with a hat (since their hair wouldnt be visible under the had anyways).Poser works very inefficiently in that geometry that would normally be invisible under their clothes is still processed and rendered, not culled.Completely different setup for EQ2 and almost every MMO character model.   The characters are a large cluster of seperate body-part meshes all skinned to the same Skeletal Rig.If they welded all vertices together into a single unified mesh, and simply 'overlayed' clothing meshes on top, people's computers would grind to a halt because the un-seen skin underneath would still be rendered.They have to break the body up into parts for everything to run smoothly, and for specific body-parts to be swapped out for replacements.</blockquote><p>Agreed. Poser IS woefully inefficient in regard to invisible geometry. But, innovative poser users have been able to use geometry swapping to create meshes that adust shape in specific areas...one example was a suit of armor that geometry-swapped into several different styles, each with unique design and shape, but using the same UV Mapping to allow for fast and efficient texturing.</p><p>With the properly designed base mesh, the polygon concentrations could be rearranged to make specific areas morph into specific armor shapes (Hands to gloves, areas on the arm to bracers, etc). It has been done before, and it works. It also eliminates the unseen geometry issues. But as I said, doing so in EQ2, at this stage of the game, would be a waste of manpower and development time.</p><p>I just wanted to present a little something for the folks who may not understand what we're talking about when we talk about skeletal rigging, mesh geometry, and so forth...</p>

[Aenashi]

any idea if this may be out with the expansion this year?  Would be a great time to release it!  New gear styles and such <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ke'la]

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote>As to dev statements, there is one even in THIS THREAD that says that yes they are working on it.</blockquote><p>"The quest to unlock Frogloks is live and in game now!"</p><p>Just because a red name says it, doesn't mean its true. We all remember how the above turned out (well, I do).</p><p>Since Lotus was the main developer working on the skeletal revamp, and he is no longer on the EQ2 team, and they have not announced any sort of replacement for him, and they have stated that there are no new races planned atm (one of the major tasks for Lotus' old position), I assume that his position has not been filled, thus the skeletal revamp is on hold/canceled.</p><p>I may be wrong, I honestly hope I am, but from what I am seeing (18 months+ of promises, no results to speak of, no sign of anyone in the position that would be working on this project), the realist in me says it is not being worked on at all.</p></blockquote>Lotus's job title was NOT "Skeletal Revamp Guy" as such his replacement would not be announced as "Skeletal Revamp Guy" his job was Lead Game Mechanics Designer  or something along those lines, and correct me if I am wrong but they have highered people with that title since he left.::EDIT::Also as to "lies" I like how you have to go back to THE LAUNCH OF THE GAME 4 years ago to find one, if the SoE devs are constantly lieing about what they are doing, shouldn't you be able to find a "lie" that is not almost 4 years old? BTW, the lie was not a quote like that, but was a lie by omittion meaning they just didn't tell use it was NOT in game therefor we all believed it was in game as that is what the Character select screen said.The Devs in this case have SPECIFICALLY AND REPEATEDLY said they ARE working on it, and that at least one model in game already uses the system (Sarnak) as such to suggest that there is a great conspiracy going on to just keep people going is tin foil hat time. Since someone here brought up SWG, lets talk about something else that happened with SWG, before NGE there was the CU, which was talked about in much the same way the Skellital revamp was talked about by the Devs, as something they are working on but wont come out for a LONG time, but it would solve some major game issues. Eventually people started calling it the "Mythical CU" just like people are talking about the "Mythical Skeleton Revamp"... Guess what the CU did happen(much to the detriment of the SWG population). The Skeleton revamp has from the DAY the first talked about it been on the "Beyond the Horizon" eta schedule,  unlike say the Guild Halls and the Map Revamp(which where announced at the future of EQ2 forum as being on the "Short Term" schedule). Well considering that "Short Term" for Guild Halls means 1 year and 1 month, and we have yet to see an announcement for when the map project will be finished, I would say any expectation of the Skeleton Revamp being finished in the near future is wishful thinking of the highest order, but that does not mean they are not still working on it.

[-Arctura-]

<cite>TorrynWoodsrunner wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( The problem with this idea of a unified mesh is that EQ2 characters are not built this way.They are divided into seperate elements that are swapped out on-the-fly with replacement parts (Think of Lego-men, you remove their hair and replace it with a hat (since their hair wouldnt be visible under the had anyways).Poser works very inefficiently in that geometry that would normally be invisible under their clothes is still processed and rendered, not culled.Completely different setup for EQ2 and almost every MMO character model.   The characters are a large cluster of seperate body-part meshes all skinned to the same Skeletal Rig.If they welded all vertices together into a single unified mesh, and simply 'overlayed' clothing meshes on top, people's computers would grind to a halt because the un-seen skin underneath would still be rendered.They have to break the body up into parts for everything to run smoothly, and for specific body-parts to be swapped out for replacements.</blockquote><p>Agreed. Poser IS woefully inefficient in regard to invisible geometry. But, innovative poser users have been able to use geometry swapping to create meshes that adust shape in specific areas...one example was a suit of armor that geometry-swapped into several different styles, each with unique design and shape, but using the same UV Mapping to allow for fast and efficient texturing.</p><p>With the properly designed base mesh, the polygon concentrations could be rearranged to make specific areas morph into specific armor shapes (Hands to gloves, areas on the arm to bracers, etc). It has been done before, and it works. It also eliminates the unseen geometry issues. But as I said, doing so in EQ2, at this stage of the game, would be a waste of manpower and development time.</p><p>I just wanted to present a little something for the folks who may not understand what we're talking about when we talk about skeletal rigging, mesh geometry, and so forth...</p></blockquote>(( Im guessing you mean something like this....Base mesh is a nude figure with a skin texture.Player puts on a suit of armor, and the meshes vertexes rearrange to form the suit of armor?Sorry but that doesn't exist in any game, to date. There are reasons why they create separate meshes to be swapped out for the body parts. The biggest one is Edge flow and the efficiency of the polygonal geometry.  In game art terms, characters need to be uber-low poly and very efficient.  One of the big challenges of todays games are building a mesh that has a pleasing Silhouette, with minimal polygons, additionally, to properly animate the character, the geometry must be laid out in a certain way to facilitate mobility, while minimizing distortions at the trouble spots, such as knees, elbows, etc.This is why you can't just have a base nude mesh that 'morphs' into a set of armor. The armors geometry would be very inefficient, since it would somehow have to be derived from the base meshes geometry, and both the armor and body bend and move in different ways.Also, most of the EQ2 armor has floating pieces on top, such as bracers, kneepads, spaulders, etc.  These seperate pieces cant juist 'break off' from a base mesh on command when instructed to do so when a player equips a certain piece of armor...They must be made seperate, and swapped out.(Btw all of the above is me going on a tangent assuming I know what you were talking about... If i made a mistake or misinterpreted something, please let me know, I don't want to look silly ^_^

[Noaani]

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lotus's job title was NOT "Skeletal Revamp Guy" as such his replacement would not be announced as "Skeletal Revamp Guy" his job was Lead Game Mechanics Designer  or something along those lines, and correct me if I am wrong but they have highered people with that title since he left.</blockquote><p>Lotus' job description, when he left SoE, was Character Art Lead. he was responsible for the art associated with all player characters and non player characters. if this position is currently occupied, it is by someone not posting on these forums.</p><p>Previous to that he was a zone artist, and he did the zone art for Qeynos (I believe he did all 10 zones of Qeynos, but may be wrong). He shifted from zone art to character art pre EoF, though I have no real idea how long before. </p><blockquote>Also as to "lies" I like how you have to go back to THE LAUNCH OF THE GAME 4 years ago to find one, if the SoE devs are constantly lieing about what they are doing, shouldn't you be able to find a "lie" that is not almost 4 years old? </blockquote>I could drag up some SoE lies and other forms of dishonesty from this year, and you should be more than aware of them, as you posted in threads about the subject matter... I am not particularly keen on draging those topics back up right now. <p>Point is, SoE have lied about many things in the past to their players. Although I tend to believe this project has been started, I have no doubt in my mind that there is currently no one working on it at SoE.</p><blockquote>to suggest that there is a great conspiracy going on </blockquote><p>I am not looking at this as a conspiracy type situation, that is too immature for my tastes. I am looking at this as a simple case of lack of staffing.</p><p>If SoE has no one on the EQ2 team with the skills and experiance to pull of something as large as a character model revamp, they would be foolish to attempt to push one through. Character art is one of the most technical aspects of digital art, and in a game like this, one of the easiest to find flaws and dislikes in. In order for this to go live, it needs to be done properly.</p><p>So, I am convinced they do not have the expertise to pull it off, but at the same time can hardly come here and tell players that the character model revamp that they used as a scapgoat on any subject breaching variety of character apperances is no longer happening, thus it is "still in the works", which could mean anything as vauge as "we are currently looking to hire someone that could make this happen".</p>

[aquavia]

I had been looking forward to the skeleton revamp for a while, but as long as it's taken, I'm beginning to agree with the view that it's been shelved.  Better to expect nothing, with the possibility of being pleasantly surprised later on, rather than to expect something and remain disappointed.

[Armawk]

<cite>TorrynWoodsrunner wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Unimesh is now used as the base for all bipedal Millennium Figures that DAZ creates. Victoria 3.0 was the first to be created from this mesh, and Michael 3.0 was the second.Each Millennium figure created from this Unimesh base receives hundreds of hours of <b>mesh revision</b> and blend zone work to <b>custom tailor the Unimesh</b> towards the particular project.</blockquote><p>As stated here, each unique MESH they make is <b>based</b> on their unimesh master, which means they have one structure (no small achievement in itself, I am not dissing them), but rework it (hundreds of hours) into individual meshes for release. </p><p>Also the uv mapping will have been significantly redone for each final  mesh as otherwise horrible distortions would result where meshes have very different body proportions.</p>

[Armawk]

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Lotus' job description, when he left SoE, was Character Art Lead. he was responsible for the art associated with all player characters and non player characters. if this position is currently occupied, it is by someone not posting on these forums.</p></blockquote>They were definitely advertising for a character lead a couple of months ago. Of course no idea if its been filled, but if it had its logical that a new designer will not be community active for some time after starting..

[WeatherMan]

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lotus's job title was NOT "Skeletal Revamp Guy" as such his replacement would not be announced as "Skeletal Revamp Guy" his job was Lead Game Mechanics Designer  or something along those lines, and correct me if I am wrong but they have highered people with that title since he left.</blockquote><p>Lotus' job description, when he left SoE, was Character Art Lead. he was responsible for the art associated with all player characters and non player characters. if this position is currently occupied, it is by someone not posting on these forums.</p><p>Previous to that he was a zone artist, and he did the zone art for Qeynos (I believe he did all 10 zones of Qeynos, but may be wrong). He shifted from zone art to character art pre EoF, though I have no real idea how long before. </p><blockquote>Also as to "lies" I like how you have to go back to THE LAUNCH OF THE GAME 4 years ago to find one, if the SoE devs are constantly lieing about what they are doing, shouldn't you be able to find a "lie" that is not almost 4 years old? </blockquote>I could drag up some SoE lies and other forms of dishonesty from this year, and you should be more than aware of them, as you posted in threads about the subject matter... I am not particularly keen on dragging those topics back up right now. <p>Point is, SoE have lied about many things in the past to their players. Although I tend to believe this project has been started, I have no doubt in my mind that there is currently no one working on it at SoE.</p><blockquote>to suggest that there is a great conspiracy going on </blockquote><p>I am not looking at this as a conspiracy type situation, that is too immature for my tastes. I am looking at this as a simple case of lack of staffing.</p><p>If SoE has no one on the EQ2 team with the skills and experience to pull of something as large as a character model revamp, they would be foolish to attempt to push one through. Character art is one of the most technical aspects of digital art, and in a game like this, one of the easiest to find flaws and dislikes in. In order for this to go live, it needs to be done properly.</p><p>So, I am convinced they do not have the expertise to pull it off, but at the same time can hardly come here and tell players that the character model revamp that they used as a scapegoat on any subject breaching variety of character appearances is no longer happening, thus it is "still in the works", which could mean anything as vauge as "we are currently looking to hire someone that could make this happen".</p></blockquote>This was well put, Noaani.And so what if he had to go back to give a good example of a lie?  He is also correct in saying that it is not the only time they have done it, but I will say that telling a blatant falsehood is not their normal way of doing things.  Ignoring us, using doublespeak, giving a reply without actually answering the question (i.e. "While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers" ), or in some cases (rarely) just telling us to shut up.  And...I was not aware that there was a statute of limitations on lies.  They lied.  It was four years ago, sure, but a lie is a lie.  Sorry, Ke'la, but it sounds like (<i><b>sounds</b></i> like, mind you) you're asking us to extend wholesale trust in their word, which I simply cannot do.While the team working on EQ2 is a far cry from the bottom-feeders who pulled the NGE stunt over at the SWG shop (and have likely learned from watching what happened after the fecal matter impacted the canted rotating cooling blades), SOE seems to suffer from a top-down disregard for the players, with some in the lower echelons likely suggesting and/or implementing certain pieces of content they know will be appreciated to keep some semblance of attentiveness, more than likely because they realize <i>someone</i> has to perform damage control.I doubt EQ2 will ever go the way of the wasteland that is SWG - it is simply too good a game, with a playerbase that has shown itself willing to tolerate a lot of abuse, within limits.  But they know how far they can push us, put conditions in the EULA to head off other crisis situations (warrior sit-in in West Freeport on many EQ1 servers, anyone?), and have learned how to use Newspeak-ish talk to anesthetize our reactions when annoying-to-nigh-intolerable situations crop up that either they did or simply don't care about.No...as a matter of fact, I <i><b>don't</b></i> think we will see a skeletal revamp.  Like you couldn't guess.....

[Qandor]

<p>The funny thing is that I think most people can live with the chracacter models we have currently. The problem is the armors and especially the robes. If they cannot in almost FOUR YEARS, either revamp the skeletons to allow for greater armor variety or at least create a second robe model, for example, which they can then retexture to death for years, what exactly were they thinking when this game was initially developed. Were they that confident that this game would draw such huge subscriber numbers that it could finance the large number of devs required to overcome some rather striking design flaws? </p><p>Despite all that, they have managed to hang on to a modest subscriber base which shows that some people are pretty tolerant of the lack of variety in appearance. Perhaps they have concluded that what they have is good enough and the numbers do not warrant the expenditure to change things at this late date. That would be my guess. </p><p>So many poor decisions regarding EQ2 which kept it from having the popularity it should have garnered and most of those poor decisions were made before the game ever launched. I still think the Everquest trademark is the best thing they have going for them and they really need to try again. You have millions of people who have passed through the doors of EQ and EQ2 and you would stand a very good chance of getting them back with a quality EQ3 product. I am just doubtful that SoE's current leadership could produce such a game. EQ's surprising popularity way back when has hurt them in the long run. They developed an attitude back then that they could shovel anything and the playerbase would swallow. Those days are long passed. </p><p>When they developed EQ2, it was a clear case of throwing out the baby with the bath water. There were a lot of bad mechanics in EQ that could not fly today but there was also a lot of good there as well. With EQ2, they pretty much tossed out everything, both good and bad. Their biggest mistakes were, the shattered land concept, way too many classes at launch (no room to breathe new life and replayability in later) and the 2 city concept which removed a large part of what many loved in EQ from the game, namely diversified cultural roots and starting areas. </p><p>Just as all of EQ was not bad, all of EQ2 is not bad either. There are many innovations in EQ2 that can be brought forward as well. Despite being a major critic of SoE and EQ2, I do hope they try again. The Everquest universe is still a magical place.</p>

[ke'la]

<cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lotus's job title was NOT "Skeletal Revamp Guy" as such his replacement would not be announced as "Skeletal Revamp Guy" his job was Lead Game Mechanics Designer  or something along those lines, and correct me if I am wrong but they have highered people with that title since he left.</blockquote><p>Lotus' job description, when he left SoE, was Character Art Lead. he was responsible for the art associated with all player characters and non player characters. if this position is currently occupied, it is by someone not posting on these forums.</p><p>Previous to that he was a zone artist, and he did the zone art for Qeynos (I believe he did all 10 zones of Qeynos, but may be wrong). He shifted from zone art to character art pre EoF, though I have no real idea how long before. </p><blockquote>Also as to "lies" I like how you have to go back to THE LAUNCH OF THE GAME 4 years ago to find one, if the SoE devs are constantly lieing about what they are doing, shouldn't you be able to find a "lie" that is not almost 4 years old? </blockquote>I could drag up some SoE lies and other forms of dishonesty from this year, and you should be more than aware of them, as you posted in threads about the subject matter... I am not particularly keen on dragging those topics back up right now. <p>Point is, SoE have lied about many things in the past to their players. Although I tend to believe this project has been started, I have no doubt in my mind that there is currently no one working on it at SoE.</p><blockquote>to suggest that there is a great conspiracy going on </blockquote><p>I am not looking at this as a conspiracy type situation, that is too immature for my tastes. I am looking at this as a simple case of lack of staffing.</p><p>If SoE has no one on the EQ2 team with the skills and experience to pull of something as large as a character model revamp, they would be foolish to attempt to push one through. Character art is one of the most technical aspects of digital art, and in a game like this, one of the easiest to find flaws and dislikes in. In order for this to go live, it needs to be done properly.</p><p>So, I am convinced they do not have the expertise to pull it off, but at the same time can hardly come here and tell players that the character model revamp that they used as a scapegoat on any subject breaching variety of character appearances is no longer happening, thus it is "still in the works", which could mean anything as vauge as "we are currently looking to hire someone that could make this happen".</p></blockquote>This was well put, Noaani.And so what if he had to go back to give a good example of a lie?  He is also correct in saying that it is not the only time they have done it, but I will say that telling a blatant falsehood is not their normal way of doing things.  Ignoring us, using doublespeak, giving a reply without actually answering the question (i.e. "While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers" ), or in some cases (rarely) just telling us to shut up.  And...I was not aware that there was a statute of limitations on lies.  They lied.  It was four years ago, sure, but a lie is a lie.  Sorry, Ke'la, but it sounds like (<i><b>sounds</b></i> like, mind you) you're asking us to extend wholesale trust in their word, which I simply cannot do.While the team working on EQ2 is a far cry from the bottom-feeders who pulled the NGE stunt over at the SWG shop (and have likely learned from watching what happened after the fecal matter impacted the canted rotating cooling blades), SOE seems to suffer from a top-down disregard for the players, with some in the lower echelons likely suggesting and/or implementing certain pieces of content they know will be appreciated to keep some semblance of attentiveness, more than likely because they realize <i>someone</i> has to perform damage control.I doubt EQ2 will ever go the way of the wasteland that is SWG - it is simply too good a game, with a playerbase that has shown itself willing to tolerate a lot of abuse, within limits.  But they know how far they can push us, put conditions in the EULA to head off other crisis situations (warrior sit-in in West Freeport on many EQ1 servers, anyone?), and have learned how to use Newspeak-ish talk to anesthetize our reactions when annoying-to-nigh-intolerable situations crop up that either they did or simply don't care about.No...as a matter of fact, I <i><b>don't</b></i> think we will see a skeletal revamp.  Like you couldn't guess.....</blockquote>No I am asking you to trust the 20 or so people, myself included that SAW WITH THIER OWN EYES an Apha version of the New Human Male Model & the near complete Sarnak Model in the new Design tool that is part of the revamp. One that was fully animated and definatly of EQ2 design. Now I guess SoE could have spent a few thousand Dollars to create a new charactor design tool to show off this and the Sarnak model in just for Fan Fair, but according to you SoE does not have the money to do it for real, so how can they have the money to "fake it", btw he(Lotus) accually built a new weopon(that is not in game) right in front of us as part of the demo.

[ke'la]

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Lotus' job description, when he left SoE, was Character Art Lead. he was responsible for the art associated with all player characters and non player characters. if this position is currently occupied, it is by someone not posting on these forums.</p></blockquote>They were definitely advertising for a character lead a couple of months ago. Of course no idea if its been filled, but if it had its logical that a new designer will not be community active for some time after starting..</blockquote>They are no longer looking for a Character Art Lead, so I would say they found someone. Also there are about 50 differant Devs that work on EQ2, and about 10 or so that post so just because someone does not post does not mean they are not doing anything. Granted it would be great if all Devs where Like Domino and kept us completly up todate on everything that is going on, but some people just are not all that talkitive, and others are allittle to talkitive(meaning if they could post they would give away things SoE wants to keep underwraps for whatever reason).

[WeatherMan]

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite> Sorry, Ke'la, but it sounds like (<i><b>sounds</b></i> like, mind you) you're asking us to extend wholesale trust in their word, which I simply cannot do.</blockquote>No I am asking you to trust the 20 or so people, myself included that SAW WITH THIER OWN EYES an Apha version of the New Human Male Model & the near complete Sarnak Model in the new Design tool that is part of the revamp. One that was fully animated and definatly of EQ2 design. Now I guess SoE could have spent a few thousand Dollars to create a new charactor design tool to show off this and the Sarnak model in just for Fan Fair, but according to you SoE does not have the money to do it for real, so how can they have the money to "fake it", btw he(Lotus) accually built a new weopon(that is not in game) right in front of us as part of the demo.</blockquote>To preface:  I am not disputing that you saw what you say you did.  In fact, I wholly believe you saw <i><b>exactly</b></i> what you say you did.  There is no reason for me to <i><b>not</b></i> believe you, or to question your integrity.However, may I turn your attention to another 'alpha', the female paladin's armor displayed in a similar fashion, to much more than 20 people, before the game went live?  Yes, it is true that there are vast differences in the situation regarding each of these, I will admit that.  On the one hand, the game was not even live, and there were computer-technology issues to consider.  But, of course, we were not told about that.  We can still google up the demo on YouTube they displayed as late as early-ish 2004, and they were push, push, pushing this model as the pinnacle of computer gaming character creation.And to my mind, on <i><b>this</b></i> hand, there may yet again be 'issues'...and we may yet again not be told of them.  I will give them the fact that there is not the push, push, push this time.  Because there is, in fact, nothing.  Nothing to indicate that you and the rest of the 20 or so people weren't being taken for a ride, even if that was not their intent at the time.  Nothing to indicate that they are even doing anything with it as we speak.And nothing to indicate to me that we should believe we are ever going to see it.  I (and I know I am not alone in this regard) have been disappointed too many times to put much stock in the rumors.  Because until it is actually here, if it ever actually <i><b>gets</b></i> here, there is no reason to think it actually will.I hope I am wrong.  I very much <i><b>want</b></i> to be wrong.  But past experience tells me I won't be.

[Morbiusv1]

<p>This is vaporware. A way to keep you playing a paying until the next SOE game hits. Notice how they say you can look hot and kill people when they talk about Agency? </p><p>Even IF they add these new skeletons I don't have any faith in the design staff to actually add any new armor that will take advantage of it or there will be some other "new" limitation.</p><p>Just enjoy EQ2 for what it is, a good fantasy MMO and wait for the next game to come out that knows how sexy sells. WAR and Aion is on my top list. </p>

[Vanisher123]

Something (at least according the the search function) no one has brought up, will they make kerra look better? Currently they look a bit odd for a cat race.

[Ahlana]

<cite>Vanisher123 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Something (at least according the the search function) no one has brought up, will they make kerra look better? Currently they look a bit odd for a cat race.</blockquote><p>Probably not. I really don't think the Skeleton thing is actually in the works. They have pulled the same thing in their other games, and so far none of their skeleton reworks ever came to life. VG was suppose to get one (they missed their supposedly deadline for it oops) EQ1 has been years since the last promise of even newer models... </p><p>You get the drift, it will probably never happen /shrugs like someone else said it just seems like a bait tactic they like to use. just my opinion</p>

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">The female Kerra's feet are way too small for one. and the shoulders on all models need one form of work or another.</span>

[Dreyco]

Vanguard DID release screenshots of the male model, which is finished.  It actually looks pretty good.

[WeatherMan]

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>Vanguard DID release screenshots of the male model, which is finished.  It actually looks pretty good.</blockquote>True.  And I agree, the look is quite well done.Now they have to do it for the human <i>female</i>.And twice for every other race, save for the sarnak (and possibly fae and arasai...but they likely need the revamp, as well).'Believe it when you see it' is the best approach to take.

[Chay]

<cite>Qandor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The funny thing is that I think most people can live with the chracacter models we have currently. The problem is the armors and especially the robes. If they cannot in almost FOUR YEARS, either revamp the skeletons to allow for greater armor variety or at least create a second robe model, for example, which they can then retexture to death for years, what exactly were they thinking when this game was initially developed. Were they that confident that this game would draw such huge subscriber numbers that it could finance the large number of devs required to overcome some rather striking design flaws? </p><p>Despite all that, they have managed to hang on to a modest subscriber base which shows that some people are pretty tolerant of the lack of variety in appearance. Perhaps they have concluded that what they have is good enough and the numbers do not warrant the expenditure to change things at this late date. That would be my guess. </p><p>So many poor decisions regarding EQ2 which kept it from having the popularity it should have garnered and most of those poor decisions were made before the game ever launched. I still think the Everquest trademark is the best thing they have going for them and they really need to try again. You have millions of people who have passed through the doors of EQ and EQ2 and you would stand a very good chance of getting them back with a quality EQ3 product. I am just doubtful that SoE's current leadership could produce such a game. EQ's surprising popularity way back when has hurt them in the long run. They developed an attitude back then that they could shovel anything and the playerbase would swallow. Those days are long passed. </p><p>When they developed EQ2, it was a clear case of throwing out the baby with the bath water. There were a lot of bad mechanics in EQ that could not fly today but there was also a lot of good there as well. With EQ2, they pretty much tossed out everything, both good and bad. Their biggest mistakes were, the shattered land concept, way too many classes at launch (no room to breathe new life and replayability in later) and the 2 city concept which removed a large part of what many loved in EQ from the game, namely diversified cultural roots and starting areas. </p><p>Just as all of EQ was not bad, all of EQ2 is not bad either. There are many innovations in EQ2 that can be brought forward as well. Despite being a major critic of SoE and EQ2, I do hope they try again. The Everquest universe is still a magical place.</p></blockquote>They made quite a few bad decisions that has painted them in corners. Definitely too many classes that in turn have been homogenized and bland. They took short cuts to get the game out on time and work on machines that were on the way out even at the time of release. These were decisions based on short term profit rather than long term quality. I always called it EQ Lite because its pretty dumbed down.I said before the game looks and feels dated. Outdated. To me its clear they are not really putting an effort into even maintaining the interests of the players. The recent world event and such kind of feels as half hearted as one of their seasonal events. It's cookie cutter. This was the perfect time to do something new and interesting. The summer lull + the recent launch of a game that in some aspects looks better than this one. Sure AOC is flawed, but at least for the moment it has something different than the same textures used at launch recycled again and again and again.Sure SOE has stretched this game out for 4 years with all its redundancy and blandness. And maybe it willl end up having the longevity of its predecesor. But its a bitter victory.

[SilkenKidden]

<cite>Qandor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The funny thing is that I think most people can live with the chracacter models we have currently. The problem is the armors and especially the robes. If they cannot in almost FOUR YEARS, either revamp the skeletons to allow for greater armor variety or at least create a second robe model, for example, which they can then retexture to death for years, what exactly were they thinking when this game was initially developed. Were they that confident that this game would draw such huge subscriber numbers that it could finance the large number of devs required to overcome some rather striking design flaws? </p></blockquote>I agree about the models and the armor.  I'd be happy with simply more varied armor: more colors and styles would be very nice, some leather armor without ugly flaps down the front and back, and nicer robes. 

[Caf]

<span style="color: #ff3300;">I'm a firm believer that they are working on the skeletal revamp...I'm just worried that they will make Halflings ugly.Leave us alone!  We like being short and fat!</span>

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">Considering Domino the TS Developer plays a Halfling I doubt you have to worry I even keep my Soga Halfling modles off for her sake.</span>

[Crymsyn]

Does this mythical skeletal revamp maybe, possibly include... sitting in a chair!?!?! Maybe even laying on a bed (without using FD)??? Since that hideously childish game which I shall not name offers it, why can't we have it?? I am so tired of floating above various pieces of furniture and such when sitting down in my house RPing =(

[Mysticdraco]

I wouldn't hold your breath with the sitting in chairs animation. The Dev's have already stated somewhere that the work that it would take to have a player actually sit in chairs would be immense as you have larger races sitting in small chairs, small races in large chairs. They said it would take a great deal of work in order to have it implemented in a way that they would be proud to show it.

[Keikoku]

At the last dev chat, I asked Kander specifically, and he said that it is being worked on.  So be patient.  It'll come.

[-Arctura-]

<cite>Mysticdraco wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wouldn't hold your breath with the sitting in chairs animation. The Dev's have already stated somewhere that the work that it would take to have a player actually sit in chairs would be immense as you have larger races sitting in small chairs, small races in large chairs. They said it would take a great deal of work in order to have it implemented in a way that they would be proud to show it.</blockquote>(( That's actually a good point come to think of it.When characters need to interact with mesh such as a chair, they usually employ the use of helper entities often called 'targets', 'dummies' or just use 'bones'. They are placed along or within a mesh you want to have contact with, and during an animation the animator will parent and/or unparent the characters bones to the object's helpers, to do things like:grab the handles of a chair, sit their butt down firmly on the chair, grab an object from a table then sit it back down on the table, etc.To get characters to sit in chairs properly would require additional coding to check the players size, and if it is suitable for that particular piece of furniture. If the character was say, an ogre with +50% growth on, they would clip through the sides of a small chair, and it would look bad. So a line of code would have to check players race, size and make a call whether or not they can sit down.This would I guess block certain race/size combos from sitting in various chairs, and it would also likely require a programmer to revise all inroom furniture and assign a 'default butt-size allowance' value to all sit-able furniture. If the size-check-code determines your butt is too big for the butt-size allowance, you will be unable to sit, and would likely receive an error message. (They could have fun with that error message imho lol)Anyways, like said above, it would require altogether a bit too much work for something very small...   (I wish they would, but still, it would likely cause alot of problems until it works right, causing lost man-hours of the devs when they could be addressing bugs or other more prevalent issues rather than whether or not your characters can sit down in chairs.

[Oleary]

<p>I, for one, am tired of the poeple who CONTINUE to say "this will never happen".  On page one of this thread Gnobrin TOLD us it's still coming.  I think many of us who actually appreciate the forums know that Gnobrin is one of the best moderators here, and to basically call him a liar is just ignorant.  </p><p> Patience is a virtue...  We're not asking for a sandwich..  This isn't fast food..  It's a very large revamp that the angry masses will complain endlessly about if it isn't just right, as many have proven to do about every other minor flaw in our game.  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Chay]

<cite>Oleary@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I, for one, am tired of the poeple who CONTINUE to say "this will never happen".  On page one of this thread Gnobrin TOLD us it's still coming.  I think many of us who actually appreciate the forums know that Gnobrin is one of the best moderators here, and to basically call him a liar is just ignorant.  </p><p> Patience is a virtue...  We're not asking for a sandwich..  This isn't fast food..  It's a very large revamp that the angry masses will complain endlessly about if it isn't just right, as many have proven to do about every other minor flaw in our game.  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>I don't think anyone called Gnobrin a liar. You are putting words in our mouths. And you're the one name calling. Keep in mind SOE is a big big company and big big companies change their mind often... Based singularly on how much money is going in their pockets. I don't doubt he has been told "its coming" but he has no control over if/when/how it is implemented.Patience may be a virtue but at some point it becomes and empty promise and we are made fools for holding any faith in their word. I have every right to complain about ever minor or major flaw: I'm a paying customer. It's my right and obligation to demand more. SOE sells me product and service each month and in order to keep me buying those they need to know what I like and don't like.When SOE (or you) pays me back for every expansion and every month of service I've paid for then and only then can they (or you) tell me to be patient. I've seen the competition as far as graphics quality. SOE can do better but right now they aren't. I've been patient already, now I'm impatient. It seems fair enough. In fact if they told me "Hey, here's a sample of what we are working on and we hope to have it all by XX/XX" I'd be willing to sit a bit more quietly. At this point it looks like years till they do something. That's disappointing.

[LordFyre]

<cite>Oleary@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I, for one, am tired of the poeple who CONTINUE to say "this will never happen".  On page one of this thread Gnobrin TOLD us it's still coming.  I think many of us who actually appreciate the forums know that Gnobrin is one of the best moderators here, and to basically call him a liar is just ignorant.  </p><p> Patience is a virtue...  We're not asking for a sandwich..  This isn't fast food..  It's a very large revamp that the angry masses will complain endlessly about if it isn't just right, as many have proven to do about every other minor flaw in our game.  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>Even so, given how long we have been waiting, progress reports from SOE of some kind would do much to silence the "poeple who CONTINUE to say 'this will never happen'."

[Drift3r]

It's not gonna happen ever. They probably put it on the back burner and forgot about it completely. If anything they are pumping out another expansion and 10 more levels to grind.

[Oh]

<cite>Drakonous@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's not gonna happen ever. They probably put it on the back burner and forgot about it completely. If anything they are pumping out another expansion and 10 more levels to grind. </blockquote><p>Yea they are definatly comming out with an expansion this year, although I seriously doubt we will be gaining more levels this expansion. Maybe Next expansion but I doubt this one.</p><p>As to the skelly rework, well it's on a long list of to do items.. You know if your married that todo list gets very long, well for soe considering their resources that list has been very long for a very long time. Kind of like It would be nice if they fixed the game to actualy use the GPU for it's graphic computation that would instantly make the game more cpu friendly for everyone.</p>

[Noaani]

<cite>Oleary@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I, for one, am tired of the poeple who CONTINUE to say "this will never happen".  On page one of this thread Gnobrin TOLD us it's still coming.  I think many of us who actually appreciate the forums know that Gnobrin is one of the best moderators here, and to basically call him a liar is just ignorant.  </p><p> Patience is a virtue...  We're not asking for a sandwich..  This isn't fast food..  It's a very large revamp that the angry masses will complain endlessly about if it isn't just right, as many have proven to do about every other minor flaw in our game.  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p>In all honesty, if all we have to go buy is the word of Gnob *look up the spoiler sites to figure out how to do the bugged epic quest* rin, then that changes nothing to me.</p><p>Gnobrin asks someone in the art department if the revamp is still on the go, they say yes (we are almost finished, we are working on it between expansion projects, we are looking to hire someone to do it all fit in the 'yes' catagory), Gnobrin then posts that it is still underway.</p><p>I have my theory, you are welcome to your own.</p>

[GrunEQ]

<span style="font-size: x-small;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Happy to know it's being worked on....it really is silly not to be able to sit all these years.  It's also silly not to have a /hug emote too, or to be able to lie down without FD.  Ahhh to be able to actually use furniture <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  sweet, sweet, sweet.</span>

[Mysticdraco]

<cite>GrunEQ wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: x-small;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Happy to know it's being worked on....it really is silly not to be able to sit all these years.  It's also silly not to have a /hug emote too, or to be able to lie down without FD.  Ahhh to be able to actually use furniture <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  sweet, sweet, sweet.</span></blockquote>In regards to new emotes and interacting with furniture GrunEQ I don't think I've ever heard any official word that we will be seeing any of that. I know the primary purpose of the Skeleton Revamp is for refitting and creating new armor for the many different races in EQII I don't know where people have heard that there might be new animations and using furniture, but in regards to furniture I believe the devs have already said that the amount of work needed to have people sit in furniture would not be worth it.

[Rorasis]

The revamp may take forever, but I'm sure it will happen.  Those of us who play Vanguard are getting a revamp for EVERY race and EVERY gender, and Vanguard is a game with fewer players at the moment.  If we can get a skeletal revamp, I'm sure you guys can too.  ((Gogo living legacy free posting!))

[WeatherMan]

<cite>Chayna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oleary@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I, for one, am tired of the poeple who CONTINUE to say "this will never happen".  On page one of this thread Gnobrin TOLD us it's still coming.  I think many of us who actually appreciate the forums know that Gnobrin is one of the best moderators here, and to basically call him a liar is just ignorant.  </p><p> Patience is a virtue...  We're not asking for a sandwich..  This isn't fast food..  It's a very large revamp that the angry masses will complain endlessly about if it isn't just right, as many have proven to do about every other minor flaw in our game.  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>I don't think anyone called Gnobrin a liar. You are putting words in our mouths. And you're the one name calling. Keep in mind SOE is a big big company and big big companies change their mind often... Based singularly on how much money is going in their pockets. I don't doubt he has been told "its coming" but he has no control over if/when/how it is implemented.Patience may be a virtue but at some point it becomes and empty promise and we are made fools for holding any faith in their word. I have every right to complain about ever minor or major flaw: I'm a paying customer. It's my right and obligation to demand more. SOE sells me product and service each month and in order to keep me buying those they need to know what I like and don't like.When SOE (or you) pays me back for every expansion and every month of service I've paid for then and only then can they (or you) tell me to be patient. I've seen the competition as far as graphics quality. SOE can do better but right now they aren't. I've been patient already, now I'm impatient. It seems fair enough. In fact if they told me "Hey, here's a sample of what we are working on and we hope to have it all by XX/XX" I'd be willing to sit a bit more quietly. At this point it looks like years till they do something. That's disappointing.</blockquote>I don't think I could have put it any better, Chayna.Gnobrin is a Community Relations Manager.  That means he gets to post the unpopular decisions - or not.  It all depends on what he's told.  That does not mean he makes them.Oleary: You might or might not have been here when the <i>Blissful Awareness </i>debacle took place.  That was where a garment that had level 60's (the uppermost level at the time) coming back to do a level 15 quest in the Qeynos Caves <i>just</i> to get this garment was all the rage.  I mean, this article was so popular that people were going on <i>raids</i> wearing the d*mn thing, and trusting to the rest of their gear to take up the slack!  This was before guards from opposite cities would kill the other's citizens, so Freeportians were SCREAMING LIKE THEIR PANTALOONS WERE ON FIRE (sorry - for some reason, the word that HAD been there in place of the capitalized sentence was under censor - go figure) to Qeynos in waves to get this item.  If you weren't a summoner, enchanter, or sorcerer, you could wear it - and <i>boy</i>, did people come to get theirs while they were hot.Well, the devs yanked the garment, replacing it with a steaming pile of doo-doo.  People were outraged, and the boards simmered with anger and resentment.  Moorgard (Gnobrin's predecessor) posted on the boards that the garment was removed for X reason (it hadn't been authorized for inclusion into the game).  And then, at a different time, he said it was yanked for Y reason (the graphics, in many case, were glitched).  And then he said it was removed for Z reason (and at this point, I stopped paying attention).  In a nutshell, they were half-baked, idiot excuses that wouldn't have held up undle a dim candle flame, much less the full light of truth.  And they were never the same excuse twice.  And as far as the people were concerned, the excuses didn't matter.<i>They wanted their</i> <i><b>Blissful Awareness</b></i> <i>back!</i>Well...it didn't happen.  And the devs ignored the players.  And Moorgard was left holding the bag, receiving the full brunt of the player's ire, even though he was not responsible.No one, but <i>no one</i>, can sit there and tell me that <i>Moorgard</i> came up with this pablum spew.  In almost every post he made that didn't involve having to defend a stupid or lame decision, he came across as a very erudite (no pun intended) and perceptive sort.  I am of the opinion that in the cases where he was told to talk about a decision that would get the customers P.O.'d, he was smart enough to ask the decision-makers "Okay - what do you want me to say?"  And he would take their words and post them verbatim.I think the devs have figured that much out.  So they don't tell Gnobrin a d*mn thing - thus, he cannot make the same 'mistake' (re-posting the dev's infantile replies) that Moorgard did.  Because odds are he's perceptive enough to do just that.  Sure, they think that treating us like mushrooms will make the problem go away, but they should have learned <i>that</i> lesson from their co-workers over at Star Wars Galaxies (and anyone who was there could give you an earful, so I won't belabor that little episode).  Granted, this is not the colossal f*ck-up that SWG's NGE was, but pretty much anytime SOE pulls a stunt like this, our Twinkie Alarms go off.  Nothing they do should surprise you anymore.  Is it a Smedley trait?  I have no idea.Talk all you want about 'patience'.  Those of us who complain feel we have earned the right to do so, and our monthly fees and software expenditures only account for a portion of that.  Experience has told us that, more likely than not, our complaints will be justified.

[ke'la]

<cite>Morbiusv1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This is vaporware. A way to keep you playing a paying until the next SOE game hits. Notice how they say you can look hot and kill people when they talk about Agency? </p><p><span style="color: #66ccff;">Even IF they add these new skeletons I don't have any faith in the design staff to actually add any new armor that will take advantage of it or there will be some other "new" limitation.</span></p><p>Just enjoy EQ2 for what it is, a good fantasy MMO and wait for the next game to come out that knows how sexy sells. WAR and Aion is on my top list. </p></blockquote>I don't know I personally think with-in the limits placed apon them the Art Department has done for the most part a very good job of making uniquely textured outfits, and where there are fewer limits on them, such as with weapons,  they have done an amazing job.

[tikasa]

<p>   With FanFare coming up... do you really think they would post anything about guild housing, skeletons, or the new expansion here?   Pulease they want an audience.</p>

[Chay]

Blissful Awareness-gate.... Ahh yes... You'd think that they would have learned. I got it then one day logged on and it was something else and so totally lame.It really makes me wonder what they are thinking. If I ponder it too much I realize they are going through the motions and don't give a flinging monkey doo doo about the player base. Aside from our wallets. But enough of that. I'm sure I will forgive them if they do something I like. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> What we really need are skirts, heels, and bunny ears!!!<img src="http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g147/chaynawolfsmoon/2008-07-1300-23-36-1.jpg" alt="" border="0" />

[Amphibia]

<cite></cite>If I was as unhappy as some posters in this thread seem to be, I would have left EQ2 a long time ago. Personally, I don't believe they "don't give a flinging monkey doo" - the revamp is just taking time. Nor do I really care, since I'm quite happy with the current (SOGA/alternate) models. Isn't it great that not everyone feels the same way? That makes it so much easier to remember that personal opinions should never be stated as facts. Cheers! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[LordFyre]

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know I personally think with-in the limits placed apon them the Art Department has done for the most part a very good job of making uniquely textured outfits, and where there are fewer limits on them, such as with weapons,  they have done an amazing job.</blockquote><p>I agree.  But, that also shows the problem "<b>with-in the limits placed apon them</b>."  </p><p>This is exactly what WeatherMan is saying.</p>

[LordFyre]

<cite>Chayna wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g147/chaynawolfsmoon/2008-07-1300-23-36-1.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="281" height="376" /></blockquote>What game is this from?  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="22" height="18" />

[WeatherMan]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Personally, I don't believe they "don't give a flinging monkey doo" - the revamp is just taking time. Nor do I really care, since I'm quite happy with the current (SOGA/alternate) models. Isn't it great that not everyone feels the same way? That makes it so much easier to remember that personal opinions should never be stated as facts. Cheers! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>I am sure that not everyone at SOE doesn't 'give a flinging monkey doo'...but I have seen nothing to indicate that the ones with the operational authority and product control <i><b>do</b></i> 'give a flinging monkey doo'.  It is all fine and well to say the revamp is taking time - but those of us who believe they don't 'give a flinging monkey doo' have well-documented instances to point to.  Granted, they are for SOE as a whole, but my earlier examples still apply, and I stand by them as stated, documented fact, and not as 'personal opinion'.I am quite happy with the way the current models look, as well (provided I am still able to mix and match - <strike>night elves</strike> SOGA elves make me ill just looking at them)...but that is not, nor has it ever been, the issue (well...not with me, anyways).  The issue is the skeletal framework that can support a greater variety of clothing and armor types, not simply the same thing re-hashed over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...well, you likely get the idea.SOE has some awesome people working for them - sadly, they are the ones with little, if any, real decision-making authority.

[-Arctura-]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>If I was as unhappy as some posters in this thread seem to be, I would have left EQ2 a long time ago. Personally, I don't believe they "don't give a flinging monkey doo" - the revamp is just taking time. Nor do I really care, since I'm quite happy with the current (SOGA/alternate) models. Isn't it great that not everyone feels the same way? <u>That makes it so much easier to remember that personal opinions should never be stated as facts.</u> Cheers! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>(( A very nice post.  Worth another look. Good points Amphibia *nods*We must remember just how much <b>WORK</b> goes into making this game. Things are 99999% more complicated than almost everyone realises. Things take time. Some things take ALOT of time, and before they are ready to display and show, they need to be completed, fine-tuned, tweaked and polished.<b>Would YOU all like someone to dive into your childhood sketchbook and rip out a few pages then post them all over the internet with your name on it, claiming it's the best you can do? NO!You'd likely want them to see only your VERY BEST work, that you have FINISHED and are proud of and willing to share with everyone else.</b>Just some things to think about.PS. The bunny character looks like a Dark Elf from NCSoft's  <u><b>Lineage2</b></u>

[Qandor]

<p>Patience can indeed be a good thing. Did they not show the reworked skeletal model for human males (alpha version) at last years fanfaire? So at this years fanfaire they may actually show the beta version or perhaps an alpha female model. In just a blink of an eye, maybe another 30 or so fanfaires, they may actually have it all done. At that point they can then start considering if they actually want to start making some armor and robes that actually look decent. </p>

[Chay]

<cite>LordFyre wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chayna wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g147/chaynawolfsmoon/2008-07-1300-23-36-1.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="281" height="376" /></blockquote>What game is this from?  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="22" height="18" /></blockquote>Perfect World... A "free" MMORPG from China

[Chay]

Actually my concern isn't that I want the rework because I want new character models (I like my elves and fae/arasai just fine). I want new armor. Variety. Something that looks good... Hmm... Of course, belly buttons and such would be nice too.  Other than that I don't care how hard it is. I don't care how complex a project it may be or how badly they've complicated with bad decisions in the past. This is the busines they chose to be in and make money at. There's no crying in game designing! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I show my appreciation for it by continuing to pay for it each month. Until I stop. I don't think they would complain about that arrangement as that's how its suppose to be. They should be appreciative of my patience! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> As for stating opinions as facts... I see a lot of  that on here but its not exclusive to any particular point of view don't you think? Anyhow, perception is reality! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> A company well versed in customer service understands that. You know, I don't think I've dealt with another company that has asked me to be patient as often as SOE/Verant. Think about it. Generally "Be patient" equates to "Shut up" or "Calm down". Three things I was told never to say to a customer. No the image is from Perfect World. As far as I know it has nothing to do with NC Soft. I never played Lineage.  PW is a bit clunky to play and has some bizarre lapses in quality on the characters (the hands). But the faces are very nicely done, nice customizations.

[WeatherMan]

SOE's real failing in all of this is their undeniably poor communications skills, which have atrophied to the point of ridiculousness.  With <i>Blissful</i> <i>Awareness</i>, it came back to bite them on the behind.  With SWG's 'upgrade', it literally blew up in their face, with critical pieces in no less than the <i>Washington Post </i>and <i>New York Times</i>, focusing on the bait-and-switch tactics that were employed.Following the <i>Blissful Awareness</i> debacle and NGE-gate, they are likely holding their cards very close to their chest.  In this case, an admission that they are not, in fact, doing anything with the skeletal revamp would likely not be well-received among the expectant folk who still trust them to be keeping to their promises - whereas people like myself would likely not be surprised at all.  I am, in all honesty, envious of the people who still have even a modicum of trust in what SOE tells them.  I will, however, admit to being a 'glass-half-empty' sort of person.The sketchbook analogy Arctura gave would be excellent - if we were discussing a private artist's scribbles.  We aren't.  And even then, artists like Michael Whelan, Larry Elmore, Clyde Caldwell, and the late master Keith Parkinson (to name a very few) are more often than not required to show progress in their commissioned work, via sketches, proofs, and boardwork pertaining to the finished product...so the customer (such as Wizards of the Coast, and yes, Sony Online Entertainment) can see that they are, in fact, doing what they are being paid to do, even if the artist in question wants to cringe at the appearance of the preliminary work.  In this case, we are the ones paying, and it is not at aall unreasonable to expect that if we are shelling out a monthly stream of cash, we might want a glimpse of where we are headed, and if it is even worth our effort to even hold out a candle of hope that we will receive what is promised at one point in the distant past.Add to this the fact that keeping us, the player base, updated on where things stand - if indeed, they <i>are</i> doing as they claim - keeps us assured that we will eventually see the promised product, and...let's say it like it is...shuts us up and keeps us mollified.  As well as keeps threads like this off the boards.  They know that to simply remove critical threads will backfire, like it did over at SWG - so they ignore them, hoping they will 'go away'.Gnobrin can only tell us what the developers tell him - and there is a chance that they are feeding him a line of tripe before his fingers even touch the keyboards.I am willing to 'be patient'...but I expect them to 'be honest', 'be forthcoming', and to 'be appreciative of the ones who pay their salaries'.  That's us, by the way.

[Chay]

<cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote>SOE's real failing in all of this is their undeniably poor communications skills, which have atrophied to the point of ridiculousness.  With <i>Blissful</i> <i>Awareness</i>, it came back to bite them on the behind.  With SWG's 'upgrade', it literally blew up in their face, with critical pieces in no less than the <i>Washington Post </i>and <i>New York Times</i>, focusing on the bait-and-switch tactics that were employed.Following the <i>Blissful Awareness</i> debacle and NGE-gate, they are likely holding their cards very close to their chest.  In this case, an admission that they are not, in fact, doing anything with the skeletal revamp would likely not be well-received among the expectant folk who still trust them to be keeping to their promises - whereas people like myself would likely not be surprised at all.  I am, in all honesty, envious of the people who still have even a modicum of trust in what SOE tells them.  I will, however, admit to being a 'glass-half-empty' sort of person.The sketchbook analogy Arctura gave would be excellent - if we were discussing a private artist's scribbles.  We aren't.  And even then, artists like Michael Whelan, Larry Elmore, Clyde Caldwell, and the late master Keith Parkinson (to name a very few) are more often than not required to show progress in their commissioned work, via sketches, proofs, and boardwork pertaining to the finished product...so the customer (such as Wizards of the Coast, and yes, Sony Online Entertainment) can see that they are, in fact, doing what they are being paid to do, even if the artist in question wants to cringe at the appearance of the preliminary work.  In this case, we are the ones paying, and it is not at aall unreasonable to expect that if we are shelling out a monthly stream of cash, we might want a glimpse of where we are headed, and if it is even worth our effort to even hold out a candle of hope that we will receive what is promised at one point in the distant past.Add to this the fact that keeping us, the player base, updated on where things stand - if indeed, they <i>are</i> doing as they claim - keeps us assured that we will eventually see the promised product, and...let's say it like it is...shuts us up and keeps us mollified.  As well as keeps threads like this off the boards.  They know that to simply remove critical threads will backfire, like it did over at SWG - so they ignore them, hoping they will 'go away'.Gnobrin can only tell us what the developers tell him - and there is a chance that they are feeding him a line of tripe before his fingers even touch the keyboards.I am willing to 'be patient'...but I expect them to 'be honest', 'be forthcoming', and to 'be appreciative of the ones who pay their salaries'.  That's us, by the way.</blockquote>That sums up things very well.Seriously if they told me... "It will be ready first quarter of 2009" and gave us a stronger taste of what's to come, I'd shut up about it. But right now I don't trust them. I don't think that they care (speaking of them on a corporate level not as individuals). Really, if you expect to compete for gas money you better do something to keep my interest. For now, I'll bounce between EQ2, AOC, and PW (I'm really liking the style of PW though the substance is lacking).

[ke'la]

<cite>LordFyre wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know I personally think with-in the limits placed apon them the Art Department has done for the most part a very good job of making uniquely textured outfits, and where there are fewer limits on them, such as with weapons,  they have done an amazing job.</blockquote><p>I agree.  But, that also shows the problem "<b>with-in the limits placed apon them</b>."  </p><p>This is exactly what WeatherMan is saying.</p></blockquote>No what he is saying is "<span class="postbody"><span style="color: #66ccff;"><u><b>Even IF they add these new skeletons</b></u> I don't have any faith in the design staff to actually add any new armor that will take advantage of it or there will be some other "new" limitation.</span></span>", The way that is worded is he does not believe the design department has the ability to make uquie things even if they had the limits removed. They would just make up a new problem to keep them from making unquie stuff.

[Aenashi]

most of the new gear is the exact same piece of armor from low lvls..just a new skin put on them.  No new designs lately.  That is why the skeleton rework has to be done. 

[-Arctura-]

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The way that is worded is he does not believe the design department has the ability to make uquie things even if they had the limits removed. They would just make up a new problem to keep them from making unquie stuff. </blockquote>(( Oh ye of little faith. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Aenashi]

<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The way that is worded is he does not believe the design department has the ability to make uquie things even if they had the limits removed. They would just make up a new problem to keep them from making unquie stuff. </blockquote>(( Oh ye of little faith. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>i was thinking the same thing ><

[WeatherMan]

<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The way that is worded is he does not believe the design department has the ability to make uquie things even if they had the limits removed. They would just make up a new problem to keep them from making unquie stuff. </blockquote>(( Oh ye of little faith. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Guilty as charged.I am fortunate that EQ2 is not my only online fix - I also play AoC, and I am also rediscovering some offline classics (Baldur's Gate, anyone?).It is sad when Baldur's Gate has more attractive sartorial appearances than EQ2.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[WeatherMan]

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LordFyre wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know I personally think with-in the limits placed apon them the Art Department has done for the most part a very good job of making uniquely textured outfits, and where there are fewer limits on them, such as with weapons,  they have done an amazing job.</blockquote><p>I agree.  But, that also shows the problem "<b>with-in the limits placed apon them</b>."  </p><p>This is exactly what WeatherMan is saying.</p></blockquote>No what he is saying is "<span class="postbody"><span style="color: #66ccff;"><u><b>Even IF they add these new skeletons</b></u> I don't have any faith in the design staff to actually add any new armor that will take advantage of it or there will be some other "new" limitation.</span></span>", The way that is worded is he does not believe the design department has the ability to make uquie things even if they had the limits removed. They would just make up a new problem to keep them from making unquie stuff. </blockquote>Actually, LordFyre stated things exactly as I intended.I am of the opinion that SOE has a hellaciously talented gang of artists.  I would make book that they could come up with some awesome designs and styles...but that they are simply not being allowed to do so.That said, ke'la is not mistaken in <i><b>her</b></i> contention, either.  The more I examine what each of the two of you are saying, the more I realize...you are both correct in how you interpreted my words.Yes...I am a cynic.  And not unjustified, I think.

[Arkinon]

All you have to do is look at some of the concept art while there were Hundreds of designs practically NONE of them made it into the game. (with a few exceptions) The have very talented concept artists its the implementation thats lacking. Like I have said before I would have loved to have been at the meeting where the "rusty sword look" was thought to be an acceptable look that people woud love and was rampant in EQ2 leading up to EOF and even ROK to some extent. I do have to say though that ROK introduced many more variations to wet our appitites but then again even those have been reused waaaay tooooo much. As for faith in SoE... YEAH RIGHT! I have put my faith in them before and have been let down over and over. Follow through has NEVER been their strong point. Hence the old saying "fool me once shame on you... fool me twice shame on me". So I choose not to believe much of what they say in the way of hype.

[Beldin_]

<cite>Chayna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LordFyre wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chayna wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g147/chaynawolfsmoon/2008-07-1300-23-36-1.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="281" height="376" /></blockquote>What game is this from?  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="22" height="18" /></blockquote>Perfect World... A "free" MMORPG from China</blockquote><p>Nice tip .. i love the Wings <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p><img src="http://beldin.be.funpic.de/pw/2008-07-30%2005-35-54.jpg" alt="" border="0" /></p>

[GrunEQ]

<span style="font-size: small;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Wow!  I really like the look of <i>Perfect World.</i>  When you say 'free'  what are you implying?</span>

[WeatherMan]

'Free' means, well....free.  You can go to the site, download the game, make an account, and off you go.However, in most games of this sort, you are also allowed to buy in-game merchandise or cash for real dollars, that will set you far and ahead of people who don't partake of such things.  Is it possible to make money and get gonzo doodads without spending real cash?  Sure it is.  But it'll take you a considerable amount of time to do it.  Some people would rather be spared the hassle.Basically, it's built-in and perfectly legal gold-selling.

[LordFyre]

And I note the characters shown have bellybuttons!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Killerbee3000]

<cite>LordFyre wrote:</cite><blockquote>And I note the characters shown have bellybuttons!  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>and wepaons and clothing staying outside the toon not like a certain game where they go through the toons *cough*

[Chay]

<cite>Killerbee3000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LordFyre wrote:</cite><blockquote>And I note the characters shown have bellybuttons!  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>and wepaons and clothing staying outside the toon not like a certain game where they go through the toons *cough*</blockquote>They do indeed have belly buttons... The problems with PW are:*Its a PK game. After 30 you WILL be the target of PKers/gankers/snot nosed twits who think its fun to attack someone when they are already fighting monsters.*Its a grind fest. The quests are pretty much go kill 40 of this. 50 of that. Go see this dude over here then run all the way back over to this other place...repeat rinse... (Hmmm sounds familiar).*The English language used is at times incomprehensible to English speakers. I'm still trying to figure out what some of my spells are doing.*Not nearly as detailed models: bad hands, joints, and no expressions. Emotes are cute but there aren't many.*If you are a packrat forget it unless you are willing to fork over real money. You have a very small inventory and a supersmall bank. (There are some quests to expand the bank but its a grind.*The economy is warped. 1,000,000 gold to buy something is quite common. Otherwise I love the armor, fashion, and character design. I've fun though.So is EQ2. If only they had skirts.PS... Shylene is on what server?

[Beldin_]

<cite>Chayna wrote:</cite><blockquote>PS... Shylene is on what server?</blockquote><p>I'm on an inofficial german server at the moment, not much people around there, so just for testing and exploring its on one hand a little lonely there, but on the other hand, no danger of PKs <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And for the visuals .. thats the actual outfit : <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><img src="http://beldin.be.funpic.de/pw/2008-07-31%2003-12-03.jpg" alt="" border="0" /></p>

[Qandor]

<cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chayna wrote:</cite><blockquote>PS... Shylene is on what server?</blockquote><p>I'm on an inofficial german server at the moment, not much people around there, so just for testing and exploring its on one hand a little lonely there, but on the other hand, no danger of PKs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And for the visuals .. thats the actual outfit : <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><img src="http://beldin.be.funpic.de/pw/2008-07-31%2003-12-03.jpg" border="0" alt="" /></p></blockquote>Now that is a great face for a female toon. Would love to know who designed EQ2's human female models and what they were thinking of at the time. Were they going for homely?

[Beldin_]

<p>The human females looked much better in EQ2 until short before release. First toon in Beta i had was a Female Human Paladin, and i remember that 3-4 weeks before release they patched something, and after that the Females got bigger [Removed for Content], but the ugly faces we have today.</p><p>Here are some oder picture from human females before release :</p><p><img src="http://beldin.be.funpic.de/eq2/eq2_screen002.jpg" alt="" border="0" /> </p><p>  <img src="http://beldin.be.funpic.de/eq2/eq2_screen003.jpg" alt="" border="0" /></p>

[Snowdonia]

Ok, even *I* would have played a human if they could have kept a base facial structure like that.

[Qandor]

<cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, even *I* would have played a human if they could have kept a base facial structure like that.</blockquote>Ya, really makes you wonder why they didn't keep that face instead of the "duh" one they shipped with.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">THat is why I play Humans in Soga I can't stand the duh expression.</span>

[Beldin_]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">THat is why I play Humans in Soga I can't stand the duh expression.</span></blockquote>I tried that once, but the SOGA bodys are even uglier <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Valentina]

<cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">THat is why I play Humans in Soga I can't stand the duh expression.</span></blockquote>I tried that once, but the SOGA bodys are even uglier <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Yeah, it's a choice of a pretty face (with bad hair) with chicken legs and arms vs. a slightly better proportioned body with a terrible face./sigh

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">I can ignore the body after a while, but not the face. </span>

[Doggi]

<cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="http://beldin.be.funpic.de/eq2/eq2_screen003.jpg" border="0" alt="" /></blockquote>OMG, she looks like my sister :o for real... that scares me *g*

[Tigerlord001]

<p>Doesn't look like we're going to be seeing this anytime soon if the recent dev chat is any indication. </p><p><a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/wiki/Dev_Chat_July_31_2008" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.allakhazam.com/wiki/Dev_...at_July_31_2008</a></p><p><b>Bludwyng:</b> Labratt asks, Are there any updates on the skeletal model changes? </p><p><b>Kirstie:</b> The skeletal revamp has been through a lot of iterations internally on the EQII team and is now a bit of a misnomer. The original technology that we had planned to use didn't work out as we expected (software, who knew).</p><p><b>Kirstie:</b> And we are also being careful not to drastically change the character models. We don't want anyone to log in one day and not recognize their favorite character. </p><p><b>Kirstie: </b>What we are focusing on now is ways to customize the look of your character with what we're referring to as "snap ons" that will change your characters profile or silhouette. </p><p><b>Kirstie:</b> There are also a few other plans to enhance the look of characters that we'll be talking about more once we are more confident that they will work within the EQII framework.</p><p>Very disappointing <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I certainly hope "snap ons" actually include the improvements to the physical features of the models that've been suggested (no more tilted heads, toes, belly buttons, etc.) as well as allow for new armor meshes to appear more frequently. As a caster, I don't think I can take much more of the same tired robe model we have now. </p>

[Qandor]

<cite>Tigerlord001 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Doesn't look like we're going to be seeing this anytime soon if the recent dev chat is any indication. </p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/wiki/Dev_Chat_July_31_2008" target="_blank">http://eq2.allakhazam.com/wiki/Dev_...at_July_31_2008</a></p><p><b>Bludwyng:</b> Labratt asks, Are there any updates on the skeletal model changes? </p><p><b>Kirstie:</b> The skeletal revamp has been through a lot of iterations internally on the EQII team and is now a bit of a misnomer. The original technology that we had planned to use didn't work out as we expected (software, who knew).</p><p><b>Kirstie:</b> And we are also being careful not to drastically change the character models. We don't want anyone to log in one day and not recognize their favorite character. </p><p><b>Kirstie: </b>What we are focusing on now is ways to customize the look of your character with what we're referring to as "snap ons" that will change your characters profile or silhouette. </p><p><b>Kirstie:</b> There are also a few other plans to enhance the look of characters that we'll be talking about more once we are more confident that they will work within the EQII framework.</p><p>Very disappointing <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I certainly hope "snap ons" actually include the improvements to the physical features of the models that've been suggested (no more tilted heads, toes, belly buttons, etc.) as well as allow for new armor meshes to appear more frequently. As a caster, I don't think I can take much more of the same tired robe model we have now. </p></blockquote>So there you have it. The skeletal revamp is indeed not happening. What a surprise. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> I think it is safe to conclude then that more armor styles are also out the window because, as we have been told, it is just too hard to do with the current skeletons. Nothing like being fed a line of bull for 4 years.

[Tigerlord001]

What's even more disappointing is that they're getting new character models in Vanguard already, and that game hasn't been out for even two years yet. How come that dev team, which seems to be a smaller group overall than the EQ2 team, can manage this massive undertaking while our devs make little to no progress? It doesn't make much sense.

[Noaani]

<cite>Tigerlord001 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Doesn't look like we're going to be seeing this anytime soon if the recent dev chat is any indication. </p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/wiki/Dev_Chat_July_31_2008" target="_blank">http://eq2.allakhazam.com/wiki/Dev_...at_July_31_2008</a></p><p><b>Bludwyng:</b> Labratt asks, Are there any updates on the skeletal model changes? </p><p><b>Kirstie:</b> The skeletal revamp has been through a lot of iterations internally on the EQII team and is now a bit of a misnomer. The original technology that we had planned to use didn't work out as we expected (software, who knew).</p><p><b>Kirstie:</b> And we are also being careful not to drastically change the character models. We don't want anyone to log in one day and not recognize their favorite character. </p><p><b>Kirstie: </b>What we are focusing on now is ways to customize the look of your character with what we're referring to as "snap ons" that will change your characters profile or silhouette. </p><p><b>Kirstie:</b> There are also a few other plans to enhance the look of characters that we'll be talking about more once we are more confident that they will work within the EQII framework.</p><p>Very disappointing <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I certainly hope "snap ons" actually include the improvements to the physical features of the models that've been suggested (no more tilted heads, toes, belly buttons, etc.) as well as allow for new armor meshes to appear more frequently. As a caster, I don't think I can take much more of the same tired robe model we have now. </p></blockquote>The words "told you so" come to mind, but are rather childish so I won't use them.

[Rhak]

<cite>Tigerlord001 wrote:</cite><blockquote>What's even more disappointing is that they're getting new character models in Vanguard already, and that game hasn't been out for even two years yet. How come that dev team, which seems to be a smaller group overall than the EQ2 team, can manage this massive undertaking while our devs make little to no progress? It doesn't make much sense.</blockquote>I'm guessing that the engine they're using for Vanguard (isn't it based off the Unreal engine or something?) is FAR more customizable than the haphazard 'designed for 12GHz single-core processors' engine that EQ2 uses.In short, in order for the devs to do what they want, it would require a COMPLETE rewrite of the game engine. This is also why there is no dual-core support, along with most of the game being rendered on your CPU instead of your GPU.

[einar4]

<p> It comes down to the end result.  If the team is focused and working on ways to better customize characters, give more options for clothing, armor, perhaps even emotes, then that's what counts.  How they do it, and do it efficiently, is up to the architects.  If they get it right, customers will hang around. </p><p> And it seems that they are at least making a lot of baby steps in that direction with appearance slots, the null armor items, etc.  It's been over 4 years, so at the end of the year we'll see whether what is done is too little too late, or what. </p>

[Beldin_]

<cite>Rhakos@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm guessing that the engine they're using for Vanguard (isn't it based off the Unreal engine or something?) is FAR more customizable than the haphazard 'designed for 12GHz single-core processors' engine that EQ2 uses.</blockquote><p>Bah .. the Vanguard Models are that plain ugly .. i wanted to try the free month currently, and i didn't get over the charcreation into the game .. lol.</p><p>Best Charcreation i've seen so far is Perfect World, i'm totally exited at the moment with this Character i just created : </p><p><img src="http://beldin.be.funpic.de/pw/2008-08-01%2017-32-35.jpg" alt="" border="0" /></p>

[Dreyco]

To be fair, the Vanguard Asian style model isn't that far off from what you're posting in that screen shot, especially with the older character customization, which is going to be returning with GU6.  They have a different appeal, but it's like comparing apples to oranges.  I rather like the comparison window, though.  It's neat.I will say that it's a shame though that we aren't getting a model update.  Very serious shame, being we've been waiting now for it for about two years, and now suddenly get the rug pulled out from under our feet <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Though if I may be curious, what are these other options they're talking about? Profile changes? Sihlouette changes?

[Tigerlord001]

<cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rhakos@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm guessing that the engine they're using for Vanguard (isn't it based off the Unreal engine or something?) is FAR more customizable than the haphazard 'designed for 12GHz single-core processors' engine that EQ2 uses.</blockquote><p>Bah .. the Vanguard Models are that plain ugly .. i wanted to try the free month currently, and i didn't get over the charcreation into the game .. lol.</p><p>Best Charcreation i've seen so far is Perfect World, i'm totally exited at the moment with this Character i just created : </p><p><img src="http://beldin.be.funpic.de/pw/2008-08-01%2017-32-35.jpg" border="0" alt="" /></p></blockquote><p>Well, in all fairness to the Vanguard models, they had much more customization available to them at the launch of the game, but in the ongoing effort to improve the game's performance, a lot of the sliders were removed and customization was severely limited while they made some adjustments. Almost all of the customization is supposed to be returning with the new models.</p><p>Concerning the EQ2 models, didn't the devs state that the sarnak were supposed to be using the new skeletal system? If that system didn't pan out, then was that statement false all along?</p>

[Noaani]

<cite>Tigerlord001 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Concerning the EQ2 models, didn't the devs state that the sarnak were supposed to be using the new skeletal system? If that system didn't pan out, then was that statement false all along?</blockquote><p>EQ2 developers lieing to the general public?</p><p>Thats never happened before!</p>

[Seolta]

<p><span style="font-size: small;">Here's an idea...<b><i> </i></b></span></p><p><b><i><span style="font-size: small;">SoE go get some *un-paid* interns from your local graphic design school and have them crank out a couple dozen new armor texture models and stop making excuses.</span></i></b></p>

[Vanisher123]

Hmms it seems SOE learned thier lesson with the SWG skeletal revamp too well, rather then go quickly and make everyone hate them with new models that are horrible, they go insanly slow and make every hate them for saying its coming and a year later...  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Valentina]

/sigh

[LordFyre]

<cite>Chayna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Killerbee3000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LordFyre wrote:</cite><blockquote>And I note the characters shown have bellybuttons!  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>and wepaons and clothing staying outside the toon not like a certain game where they go through the toons *cough*</blockquote>They do indeed have belly buttons... The problems with PW are:*Its a PK game. After 30 you WILL be the target of PKers/gankers/snot nosed twits who think its fun to attack someone when they are already fighting monsters.*Its a grind fest. The quests are pretty much go kill 40 of this. 50 of that. Go see this dude over here then run all the way back over to this other place...repeat rinse... (Hmmm sounds familiar).*The English language used is at times incomprehensible to English speakers. I'm still trying to figure out what some of my spells are doing.*Not nearly as detailed models: bad hands, joints, and no expressions. Emotes are cute but there aren't many.*If you are a packrat forget it unless you are willing to fork over real money. You have a very small inventory and a supersmall bank. (There are some quests to expand the bank but its a grind.*The economy is warped. 1,000,000 gold to buy something is quite common. Otherwise I love the armor, fashion, and character design. I've fun though.So is EQ2. If only they had skirts.PS... Shylene is on what server?</blockquote>Sadly, we just don't live in a <a href="http://www.perfectworld.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Perfect World</a>.  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> 

[tikasa]

<cite>Chayna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote>SOE's real failing in all of this is their undeniably poor communications skills, which have atrophied to the point of ridiculousness.  With <i>Blissful</i> <i>Awareness</i>, it came back to bite them on the behind.  With SWG's 'upgrade', it literally blew up in their face, with critical pieces in no less than the <i>Washington Post </i>and <i>New York Times</i>, focusing on the bait-and-switch tactics that were employed.Following the <i>Blissful Awareness</i> debacle and NGE-gate, they are likely holding their cards very close to their chest.  In this case, an admission that they are not, in fact, doing anything with the skeletal revamp would likely not be well-received among the expectant folk who still trust them to be keeping to their promises - whereas people like myself would likely not be surprised at all.  I am, in all honesty, envious of the people who still have even a modicum of trust in what SOE tells them.  I will, however, admit to being a 'glass-half-empty' sort of person.The sketchbook analogy Arctura gave would be excellent - if we were discussing a private artist's scribbles.  We aren't.  And even then, artists like Michael Whelan, Larry Elmore, Clyde Caldwell, and the late master Keith Parkinson (to name a very few) are more often than not required to show progress in their commissioned work, via sketches, proofs, and boardwork pertaining to the finished product...so the customer (such as Wizards of the Coast, and yes, Sony Online Entertainment) can see that they are, in fact, doing what they are being paid to do, even if the artist in question wants to cringe at the appearance of the preliminary work.  In this case, we are the ones paying, and it is not at aall unreasonable to expect that if we are shelling out a monthly stream of cash, we might want a glimpse of where we are headed, and if it is even worth our effort to even hold out a candle of hope that we will receive what is promised at one point in the distant past.Add to this the fact that keeping us, the player base, updated on where things stand - if indeed, they <i>are</i> doing as they claim - keeps us assured that we will eventually see the promised product, and...let's say it like it is...shuts us up and keeps us mollified.  As well as keeps threads like this off the boards.  They know that to simply remove critical threads will backfire, like it did over at SWG - so they ignore them, hoping they will 'go away'.Gnobrin can only tell us what the developers tell him - and there is a chance that they are feeding him a line of tripe before his fingers even touch the keyboards.I am willing to 'be patient'...but I expect them to 'be honest', 'be forthcoming', and to 'be appreciative of the ones who pay their salaries'.  That's us, by the way.</blockquote>That sums up things very well.Seriously if they told me... "It will be ready first quarter of 2009" and gave us a stronger taste of what's to come, I'd shut up about it. But right now I don't trust them. I don't think that they care (speaking of them on a corporate level not as individuals). Really, if you expect to compete for gas money you better do something to keep my interest. For now, I'll bounce between EQ2, AOC, and PW (I'm really liking the style of PW though the substance is lacking).</blockquote>You were right not to trust them.   Skeletal software did not work ( see post in same section )    So now how many get suckered into believing them when they try to sell us they are still working on it.   Some of us have been believing them for 3 years .....   now after 3 years the Devs say the software is not working ... anyone else find this tough to believe?

[Cynziel]

How hugely disapointing, however I can now leave without fear that this game will ever look better, character wise anyway. Leveling to 80 and calling it quits. Now waiging for Vanguard's revamp.... :/ We should know by september or so what their new models look like, I hope it's not a disapointment like here... Perfect World has perfect customisation, but it's a crap game. ^^ No offense my opinion. Vanguard's faces didn't always look they do now either, the sliders were taken away months back this is what my half elf and human used to look like: <img src="http://adreaming.ca/images/gamescreens/human.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <img src="http://adreaming.ca/images/gamescreens/helf.jpg" border="0" alt="" />Now I'm hoping the faces look the same or better then they did and I have high hopes for the bodies... ;D

[Risiko]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sorry for the lack of information, all.  There's seriously no new news since it's still "in the works".  The art team are working to make ANY change to your character be the biggest bang for the least possible visual change.  Remember too, we're talking about MANY varying body types and some of those are even between the differing sexes of each race...  It's a VERY intensive change, and something that's taken this long to work on, and even longer to complete.</p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote><p>It's been over 2 months now.  How about an update?</p>

[Beldin_]

<cite>zip wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sorry for the lack of information, all.  There's seriously no new news since it's still "in the works".  The art team are working to make ANY change to your character be the biggest bang for the least possible visual change.  Remember too, we're talking about MANY varying body types and some of those are even between the differing sexes of each race...  It's a VERY intensive change, and something that's taken this long to work on, and even longer to complete.</p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote><p>It's been over 2 months now.  How about an update?</p></blockquote><p>Hey .. its just 2 MONTHS !! .. you can come back to ask again in 2 YEARS <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Then they may tell you : We made good progress in the last 2 years, and are proud to say that we have sorted out the biggest problems, so that we can finally start to do something, as soon as the next 2 expansions are finished and if we find some programmers who are able to understand the code of the engine (what may took them maybe again 2 extra years) <cite><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></cite></p>

[ke'la]

<cite>zip wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sorry for the lack of information, all.  There's seriously no new news since it's still "in the works".  The art team are working to make ANY change to your character be the biggest bang for the least possible visual change.  Remember too, we're talking about MANY varying body types and some of those are even between the differing sexes of each race...  It's a VERY intensive change, and something that's taken this long to work on, and even longer to complete.</p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote><p>It's been over 2 months now.  How about an update?</p></blockquote>Update is they wasted 2 years working on Technology that they can't intgrate into EQ2 without major issues.They are now trying new stuff that they don't know if it will work or not, and if it does not work they won't tell us a thing, if it does work we will know maybe a month befor it comes out.

[Aenielle]

<p>WTB a new EQ2 engine.</p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Vonotar]

To be honest, there isn't that much wrong with the existing engine, at least in terms of gear.They just need to be more creative in how they develop armor, if we already have leggings that have been fitted to each and every class, then surely new leggings would just be a case of a new bump-map and colouring?The colouring they appear to have down to an art-form... time for some different patterns?

[Cragger]

    Well deceit finally comes to an end.     No new skeletal models thus no new armor models, no new animations, and no new emotes. Saddly for EQ2 to have an chance of growing into the future it looks like it really will need a complete rebuild. The original design team gambled on continuing faster single core processors and coded exclusively for such, they invented new graphical effect processes and did things at the time noone was considering possible but did it in a way that they couldn't be offloaded or converted to GPU functions once hardware supported it.    But a rebuild only happens when its fiscally makes sense. And with the hits SoE has taken from their dud launches of recent, declining subscription bases on all titles, and a in process conversion away from subscription income to in game purchase income models it doesn't make fiscal sense to invest in such a project. Its not that it can't be done, look at Eve-online they basically scrapped and rebuilt the graphic engine to offload graphics to the GPU, bring the game up to current graphics standards, all while maintaining backwards compatibility in that you don't have to use the graphics engine if you don't wish to or are unable to. Fiscally made sense for them though, with the death of Earth and Beyond, and at the time pressure of the possibility of Star Trek online it was worth the investment to maintain their space mmo dominance.

[Thistleknot]

<cite>Striothia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>    Well deceit finally comes to an end.     No new skeletal models thus no new armor models, no new animations, and no new emotes. Saddly for EQ2 to have an chance of growing into the future it looks like it really will need a complete rebuild </blockquote>Sadly, I have to agree. I've been kind of holding my breath for the skeletal revamp, because I hoped it would bring all the things you mentioned. I thought to myself, ok, I know it all looks the same now, but hopefully once this gets off the ground, it'll get better. Now unfortunately, it seems we're just going to get more of the same, since I honestly don't believe SoE would put the resources in to rebuild the game engine from the ground up.

[Ahlana]

Funny it took them two years to figure out it wouldn't work. In that time frame they could've rebuilt it from the ground up. Kind of silly when you think about it.

[Cragger]

They've known far longer then that, software is designed modularly. Well any software you actually want to work someday. Build a part of the whole test the part, fix part if needed. Build new part, test part, fix if needed. Put parts together, test parts combined, fix if needed etc. Can't build anything, physical or virtual as a whole then flick the switch find out it doesn't work and then have any hope of finding why and how to fix it.Now perhaps there was some on the side work by people to see if they could finesse it to work somehow. But I doubt it was a full fledge budgeted and authrized design goal. Hard to justify 2 years of pursuit in that direction unless you have Braid McQuaid managment.

[LadyVader]

I'm afraid to admit I actually thought they were just stalling to surprise us maybe with the next expansion.  It's kind of like being promised a big promotion at a job you aren't very happy at, if you just stick it out a year.  At the end of the year you get told, sorry not this time around, just hold out another year "I promise"...<i>yeah right!  </i>Maybe EQ3?  I'm not holding my breath, but at the same time I can't just say <i>take this job and shove it</i>, I'm too addicted, bleh!

[ke'la]

<cite>Striothia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote> Well deceit finally comes to an end. </blockquote>It did? Maybe you should read the quote again... They finaly figured out that the majority of the players have given up on the Skeletal Revamp name... so they changed "what they are working on". So the deceit has not ended it has just changed names.Bludwyng: Labratt asks, Are there any updates on the skeletal model changes?<p><i>Kirstie: The skeletal revamp has been through a lot of iterations internally on the EQII team and<b> <span style="color: #ff0000;">is now a bit of a misnomer.</span></b> The original technology that we had planned to use didn't work out as we expected (software, who knew).</i></p><p><i>Kirstie: And we are also being careful not to drastically change the character models. We don't want anyone to log in one day and not recognize their favorite character.</i></p><p><i>Kirstie: What we are <b><span style="color: #3366ff;">focusing on now </span></b>is ways to customize the look of your character with what we're referring to as <b><span style="color: #ff9900;">"snap ons"</span></b></i> that will change your characters profile or silhouette.</p><p><i>Kirstie: There are also a <b><span style="color: #00ffff;">few other plans</span></b> to enhance the look of characters that we'll be talking about more once we are more confident that they will work within the EQII framework.</i></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0000;">This means it(the deceit) is not gone just the name is now wrong.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #3366ff;">This is to make people believe they are now working on a differant way to make armor.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9900;">This is what they want us to call it for now... until they ether implement something(a'la the SWG name change from Combate Revamp to Combate Upgrade)... or they change the name again.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #00ffff;">This is an attempt to reinforce the belief that they are accually working on it.</span></b></p><p>Do you beleive them... other then the part about not working on the skellital revamp. Thats upto you. I beleived them about the revamp because I saw them using it with my own eyes at Fan Faire... however that was in the "white room" and not in game. Now it will take me accually seeing it in engine for me to beleive that it will ever be done.</p>

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">I still fall under the camp of "Wait and see" how these "Snap-on's" will work. </span>

[Cragger]

You raise a good point Allena.And the use of the phrase 'snap on' makes me think of snap on tools which should be called snap when used tools.

[Risiko]

<p>So... that's it?Two years of design and development, and in the end we get ONE reply saying it didn't work and they are looking at doing something else?</p><p>You got to be kidding me.  There is still a ton of money to be made with the Everquest license.  You can not as a company just let it die with Everquest 2.  And, when I say "let it die", I mean this current game engine.  It can not survive for ever against the wave upon wave of new MMORPG games released each year.</p><p>Yes.  The current Everquest 2 game engine still looks decent, but it is showing it's age quickly.  Either they are secretly working on Everquest 3, working on a complete revamp of the Everquest 2 game engine, or dropping the proverbial ball on a game license that is still worth hundreds of millions of dollars.  I mean, you release that when Everquest 2 finally fails, it will be the end of hardcore fantasy MMORPGs as we know it.  </p><p>Yeah I know that Everquest 2 is not nearly as hardcore as Everquest 1, but compared to the other MMORPGs on the market right now, it is still the most hardcore fantasy MMORPG by far.  All of the other fantasy MMORPGs on the market and in development right now are very easy-mode softcore MMORPGs where you just target a mob and spam damage for a few seconds at most before it dies and you choose another mob.</p><p>If SoE lets Everquest 2 fade away, they will be ending an era in MMORPGs that we may never see again in our life time.  Truly a sad, sad day that will be.</p>

[Beldin_]

<cite>zip wrote:</cite><blockquote>  All of the other fantasy MMORPGs on the market and in development right now are very easy-mode softcore MMORPGs where you just target a mob and spam damage for a few seconds at most before it dies and you choose another mob.</blockquote>And we here are also already at the point where classes do 60-70+% of their total damage via autoattack .. if they go this way further in 2 more expansion AA is up to 90% and you can also play semi-afk without somebody noticing any difference <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[ke'la]

<cite>zip wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So... that's it?Two years of design and development, and in the end we get ONE reply saying it didn't work and they are looking at doing something else?</p><p>You got to be kidding me. There is still a ton of money to be made with the Everquest license. You can not as a company just let it die with Everquest 2. And, when I say "let it die", I mean this current game engine. It can not survive for ever against the wave upon wave of new MMORPG games released each year.</p><p>Yes. The current Everquest 2 game engine still looks decent, but it is showing it's age quickly. Either they are secretly working on Everquest 3, working on a complete revamp of the Everquest 2 game engine, or dropping the proverbial ball on a game license that is still worth hundreds of millions of dollars. I mean, you release that when Everquest 2 finally fails, it will be the end of hardcore fantasy MMORPGs as we know it. </p><p>Yeah I know that Everquest 2 is not nearly as hardcore as Everquest 1, but compared to the other MMORPGs on the market right now, it is still the most hardcore fantasy MMORPG by far. All of the other fantasy MMORPGs on the market and in development right now are very easy-mode softcore MMORPGs where you just target a mob and spam damage for a few seconds at most before it dies and you choose another mob.</p><p>If SoE lets Everquest 2 fade away, they will be ending an era in MMORPGs that we may never see again in our life time. Truly a sad, sad day that will be.</p></blockquote>I don't see EQ2 going away anytime soon, look at other SoE titles, EQ1 is going stong and from time to time surpasses EQ2's population numbers. VG is definatly a Hardcore MMO, and they have made vast improvements to it, though the work is FAR from done. Planetside, wich is down to 2 servers(one US, one EU) accually will have 2 panels at Fan Faire. Then there is MxO and SWG. Say what you will about SoE, but one thing is certain they don't let thier MMOs die.

[troodon]

This is a major let down.  Color me bummed.

[LadyVader]

<p>Well though I could not find any official statement that the Sarnak model was indeed based off a new model system, even if many here on these boards claimed Lotus stated such at Fan Faire, I'm assuming that means no they were not.  Or, if they could implement such a system it was going to change the looks of current characters too drastically so they decided to scrap it and start over.  I'm not clear on what this "snap on" thing refers to.  Would it be possible to give us an example?  We've been waiting for so long for a skeletal revamp that isn't going to happen, I hope you're throwing us a bone at the upcoming Fan Faire.  It makes me sick to think my necro will be stuck wearing the same drab robe designs and cloth armor because the excuse that we have to wait for the skeletal revamp is no longer valid.</p>

[ke'la]

<cite>Tahiri@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well though I could not find any official statement that the Sarnak model was indeed based off a new model system, even if many here on these boards claimed Lotus stated such at Fan Faire, I'm assuming that means no they were not. Or, if they could implement such a system it was going to change the looks of current characters too drastically so they decided to scrap it and start over. I'm not clear on what this "snap on" thing refers to. Would it be possible to give us an example? We've been waiting for so long for a skeletal revamp that isn't going to happen, I hope you're throwing us a bone at the upcoming Fan Faire. It makes me sick to think my necro will be stuck wearing the same drab robe designs and cloth armor because the excuse that we have to wait for the skeletal revamp is no longer valid.</p></blockquote>The excuse was not wait for the skeletal revamp, the excuse was and still is, it takes a minimum of 2 months working on nothing but the armor piece to make just one new armor piece. The now canceled Skelital Revamp was suposed to do away with the excuse. Now the excuse is still vaild and suposedly they are working on other ways to do away with it.

[Llach]

<p>One of the time excuses was that they had this desire to make sure every race looked the same in the same armour type.  Why???</p><p>Why can't they make armour unique to the race and roll out the styles as they complete each races type?</p>

[Snowdonia]

<cite>Aollish@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>One of the time excuses was that they had this desire to make sure every race looked the same in the same armour type. Why???</p><p>Why can't they make armour unique to the race and roll out the styles as they complete each races type?</p></blockquote>Because part of the attraction to EQII is its sense of realism that was added to the character design. In the real world, a black T-Shirt that says "I Like Linkin' Logs" in bright pink letters is still going to be a black T-Shirt that says "I Like Linkin' Logs" in bright pink letters no matter who wears it. I actually PREFER it to be this way and one of the things that irked me so much about EQ1s character designs was that armor was never universally designed. Every race looks different in the same clothes which made no sense to me.Don't get me wrong, I would love to see racially influenced armors and clothings myself but I don't feel they should be race restricted and <i>still</i> feel a "Tier'dal Breastplate of Malice" should look exactly the same no matter if a Dark Elf is wearing it or a Dwarf.This entire thread now though is completely moot. There is no skeleton revamp and IMO, the mention of "snap ons" is just more bait on the lure to keep people hoping and wishing that something is going to improve our current model and armor structure/skin choices dilemma. I know for myself, I'm not taking the bait. I'm not going to wait for these mythical "snap ons" so that three more years down the line we can be told, "oops, we've scrapped the "snap ons" due to software issues but we're working on "thisandthat" instead..." I'm asking and fully expecting some sort of action to be taken on the numerous model requests that have collected dust thanks to this never realized skeleton revamp. I refuse to accept "snap ons" as an excuse for them to overlook these changes.

[Beldin_]

<cite>Aollish@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>One of the time excuses was that they had this desire to make sure every race looked the same in the same armour type.  Why???</p><p>Why can't they make armour unique to the race and roll out the styles as they complete each races type?</p></blockquote><p>Because for that they need some inspired artists, and since the actual artists (i there are even still some around) don't have any ideas of good looking items for just ONE race, how do you expect unique items for races ? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>All i have to say is : T5 MC Leather .. it looks sooo horrible now .. and the best, this ugly look was stolen from the old Sootfoot Chainmal from the goblins in Lavastorm, that everyone used in T5 against Darathar. Yeah .. thats really what i call inspiration <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Llach]

<cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aollish@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>One of the time excuses was that they had this desire to make sure every race looked the same in the same armour type. Why???</p><p>Why can't they make armour unique to the race and roll out the styles as they complete each races type?</p></blockquote>Because part of the attraction to EQII is its sense of realism that was added to the character design. In the real world, a black T-Shirt that says "I Like Linkin' Logs" in bright pink letters is still going to be a black T-Shirt that says "I Like Linkin' Logs" in bright pink letters no matter who wears it. I actually PREFER it to be this way and one of the things that irked me so much about EQ1s character designs was that armor was never universally designed. Every race looks different in the same clothes which made no sense to me.Don't get me wrong, I would love to see racially influenced armors and clothings myself but I don't feel they should be race restricted and <i>still</i> feel a "Tier'dal Breastplate of Malice" should look exactly the same no matter if a Dark Elf is wearing it or a Dwarf.This entire thread now though is completely moot. There is no skeleton revamp and IMO, the mention of "snap ons" is just more bait on the lure to keep people hoping and wishing that something is going to improve our current model and armor structure/skin choices dilemma. I know for myself, I'm not taking the bait. I'm not going to wait for these mythical "snap ons" so that three more years down the line we can be told, "oops, we've scrapped the "snap ons" due to software issues but we're working on "thisandthat" instead..." I'm asking and fully expecting some sort of action to be taken on the numerous model requests that have collected dust thanks to this never realized skeleton revamp. I refuse to accept "snap ons" as an excuse for them to overlook these changes.</blockquote><p>An iron breastplate produced by Dwarves would in all likliehood look different to one produced by a Dark Elf.  You see where I am going with this?</p><p>That is where they could make huge improvements to the visual style of the game.</p><p>Plus your sense of realism is a bit distorted by rl.  Granted a t-shirt here may be like that, but then again EQ2 doesn't have a China (yet) that mass produces them.</p><p>You want realism, look at the armour styles from medievil europe; all countries (and indeed some regions) created the same armour but very few looked the same.</p>

[Valentina]

<cite>Aollish@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aollish@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>One of the time excuses was that they had this desire to make sure every race looked the same in the same armour type. Why???</p><p>Why can't they make armour unique to the race and roll out the styles as they complete each races type?</p></blockquote>Because part of the attraction to EQII is its sense of realism that was added to the character design. In the real world, a black T-Shirt that says "I Like Linkin' Logs" in bright pink letters is still going to be a black T-Shirt that says "I Like Linkin' Logs" in bright pink letters no matter who wears it. I actually PREFER it to be this way and one of the things that irked me so much about EQ1s character designs was that armor was never universally designed. Every race looks different in the same clothes which made no sense to me.Don't get me wrong, I would love to see racially influenced armors and clothings myself but I don't feel they should be race restricted and <i>still</i> feel a "Tier'dal Breastplate of Malice" should look exactly the same no matter if a Dark Elf is wearing it or a Dwarf.This entire thread now though is completely moot. There is no skeleton revamp and IMO, the mention of "snap ons" is just more bait on the lure to keep people hoping and wishing that something is going to improve our current model and armor structure/skin choices dilemma. I know for myself, I'm not taking the bait. I'm not going to wait for these mythical "snap ons" so that three more years down the line we can be told, "oops, we've scrapped the "snap ons" due to software issues but we're working on "thisandthat" instead..." I'm asking and fully expecting some sort of action to be taken on the numerous model requests that have collected dust thanks to this never realized skeleton revamp. I refuse to accept "snap ons" as an excuse for them to overlook these changes.</blockquote><p>An iron breastplate produced by Dwarves would in all likliehood look different to one produced by a Dark Elf.  You see where I am going with this?</p><p>That is where they could make huge improvements to the visual style of the game.</p><p>Plus your sense of realism is a bit distorted by rl.  Granted a t-shirt here may be like that, but then again EQ2 doesn't have a China (yet) that mass produces them.</p><p>You want realism, look at the armour styles from medievil europe; all countries (and indeed some regions) created the same armour but very few looked the same.</p></blockquote>Not to mention that, if we're pushing the realism card, a breastplate forged by dark elves is hardly going to fit the proportions of a dwarf...The EQ2 designers (rightly) decided that trying to be too realistic would eventually reach a point where it hampered actual gameplay.  But that makes 'realism' a rather difficult argument to use  to explain why the current status quo is acceptable.  If they already fudged the idea of realism to allow all races to wear the same piece of armour, regardless of size, then they could fudge it to allow all races to have their own particular visual take on that armour.

[Snowdonia]

<cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Don't get me wrong, I would love to see racially influenced armors and clothings myself but I don't feel they should be race restricted and <i>still</i> feel a "Tier'dal Breastplate of Malice" should look exactly the same no matter if a Dark Elf is wearing it or a Dwarf.</blockquote>Yes Aollish, I said all that already in this single statement that I made above. What I said there means exactly what you said "<i>An iron breastplate produced by Dwarves would in all likliehood look different to one produced by a Dark Elf. You see where I am going with this?</i>" You're entire argument in your response to me is lost because you're preacing to the choir on that one.xsikal,That's a pretty narrow view of how armor made with a specific races "flavor" would work. Just because a Dark Elf made a <i>Tier'dal Breastplate of Malice</i>, doesn't mean they had to of made it for a Dark Elf. Couldn't a Dwarf commission a Dark Elf Armorer to create them a <i>Tier'dal Breastplate of Malice</i> just like a Dark Elf can? Of course he could. We live in a Norrath that is an integrated society. So there goes that narrow real life perspective out the window.

[Valentina]

<cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Don't get me wrong, I would love to see racially influenced armors and clothings myself but I don't feel they should be race restricted and <i>still</i> feel a "Tier'dal Breastplate of Malice" should look exactly the same no matter if a Dark Elf is wearing it or a Dwarf.</blockquote>Yes Aollish, I said all that already in this single statement that I made above. What I said there means exactly what you said "<i>An iron breastplate produced by Dwarves would in all likliehood look different to one produced by a Dark Elf. You see where I am going with this?</i>" You're entire argument in your response to me is lost because you're preacing to the choir on that one.xsikal,That's a pretty narrow view of how armor made with a specific races "flavor" would work. Just because a Dark Elf made a <i>Tier'dal Breastplate of Malice</i>, doesn't mean they had to of made it for a Dark Elf. <b>Couldn't a Dwarf commission a Dark Elf Armorer to create them a <i>Tier'dal Breastplate of Malice</i> just like a Dark Elf can? Of course he could. We live in a Norrath that is an integrated society. So there goes that narrow real life perspective out the window.</b></blockquote>Yeah... right until you take a non attunable piece of gear and have a gnome wear it, unqeuip it, and trade it to an ogre who then also wears it.  Something that would clearly not be possible in this pristine reality, but is doable in EQ2, (and without it looking absurd on one or the other of the races)It's very easy to try to twist the situation to make it seem like it's all about reality, but it's clearly not.  Like every other game out there, it's about taking an idea of reality and then cutting corners and trimming off dead weight and things that would hamper gameplay.My point therefore is that we cannot use 'reality' as a rationale for not doing something, because the devs have already conformed reality to better match their desired gameplay.  Is a single piece of armour looking different on different races any more unbelievable than a piece of armour that magically conforms to any shape or size?  I don't think so.  There is plenty of precedence in fantasy for gear that changes visually to appeal to its user (or to reflect its user's evil/good/tastes).  Seems like this is just another such possible case.Anyway, as noted, it's all rather moot.  Since the whole supposed rationale for the skeletal revamp was to make it easier to make new armours, and said revamp is not happening, it seems unlikely we'll get much in the way of new armours any time soon.(The whole "snap on" thing sounds like stuff which goes on top of the armour and changes the silhouette of the character, which doesn't address the issues with the actual armour (or clothing) itself.)

[CorpseGoddess]

<cite>Chayna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Killerbee3000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LordFyre wrote:</cite><blockquote>And I note the characters shown have bellybuttons!  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>and wepaons and clothing staying outside the toon not like a certain game where they go through the toons *cough*</blockquote>They do indeed have belly buttons... The problems with PW are:*Its a PK game. After 30 you WILL be the target of PKers/gankers/snot nosed twits who think its fun to attack someone when they are already fighting monsters.*Its a grind fest. The quests are pretty much go kill 40 of this. 50 of that. Go see this dude over here then run all the way back over to this other place...repeat rinse... (Hmmm sounds familiar).*The English language used is at times incomprehensible to English speakers. I'm still trying to figure out what some of my spells are doing.*Not nearly as detailed models: bad hands, joints, and no expressions. Emotes are cute but there aren't many.*If you are a packrat forget it unless you are willing to fork over real money. You have a very small inventory and a supersmall bank. (There are some quests to expand the bank but its a grind.*The economy is warped. 1,000,000 gold to buy something is quite common. Otherwise I love the armor, fashion, and character design. I've fun though.So is EQ2. If only they had skirts.PS... Shylene is on what server?</blockquote>Rohan: Blood Feud is another free game with awesome clothing styles and no PK that I've run into yet, and I have a couple of toons in their 30's there.  They give the dark elves dresses with bustles!  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Calthine]

<cite>zip wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So... that's it?Two years of design and development, and in the end we get ONE reply saying it didn't work and they are looking at doing something else? </p></blockquote>Well, that question has been asked every dev chat I've worked, lol. I was happy they were able to answer this time.Meanwhile, what makes you think that EQ2 is being let fade away?  This didn't work, they're trying something else <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rainmare]

<cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Don't get me wrong, I would love to see racially influenced armors and clothings myself but I don't feel they should be race restricted and <i>still</i> feel a "Tier'dal Breastplate of Malice" should look exactly the same no matter if a Dark Elf is wearing it or a Dwarf.</blockquote>Yes Aollish, I said all that already in this single statement that I made above. What I said there means exactly what you said "<i>An iron breastplate produced by Dwarves would in all likliehood look different to one produced by a Dark Elf. You see where I am going with this?</i>" You're entire argument in your response to me is lost because you're preacing to the choir on that one.xsikal,That's a pretty narrow view of how armor made with a specific races "flavor" would work. Just because a Dark Elf made a <i>Tier'dal Breastplate of Malice</i>, doesn't mean they had to of made it for a Dark Elf<b>. Couldn't a Dwarf commission a Dark Elf Armorer to create them a <i>Tier'dal Breastplate of Malice</i> just like a Dark Elf can?</b> <b>Of course he could. We live in a Norrath that is an integrated society. So there goes that narrow real life perspective out the window.</b></blockquote>see that bolded part? it's incorrect. the ONLY 'integrated' society of Norrath is the adventurers. there is no way in Innoruuk's cauldron that a Tier'dal would do ANYTHING for a dwarf other then kill him in the most painful way possible.even in Freeport, the Tier'dal are conspiring against each other, and the other residents of freeport. Tier'dal don't get along with other races, exept Ogres, Trolls, and orcs, and only them because they use them as war fodder and slave labor. even the Arasai/D'morte are held at arm's length.the kind of trade secrets that would be passed on to make the 'tier'dal breastplate of malice' would certainly not be given out to those not entirely devoted to the racial doctrine. not to mention the reverse is true. no self-respecting dwarf would trust non-dwarven craftsmanship when it comes to the forging of metal.Racial Armor, should remain that. Racial. the only race that should be able to wear a 'tier'dal breastplate of malice' is a tier'dal. and the only race able to wear the 'dwarven breastplate of endurance' is a dwarf.yes, we, the players are an integrated society. dark elves fight right along with high elves and trolls ally with gnomes. but as far as the game world is concerned, we are the exception, not the norm. So I would hope that if they added racial armors and flairs, that they would be completely race restricted.

[Snowdonia]

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>see that bolded part? it's incorrect. the ONLY 'integrated' society of Norrath is the adventurers. </blockquote>Then explain why the Banker in NFP is a Halfling (and yes, I /bugged it shortly after she went in and it's not changed so must be intended). <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Nobody ever said anything about trade secrets being given to other races, I simply said that a racially influenced piece of armor could be made for anyone to wear. Since it is we, the adventurers, who will be doing the crafting, then yes, it is Norrath's integrated society that the wearability of said pieces should decide who can wear it, not the minority of NPCs. And since there are TONS of self respecting Tier'dal who <b>would</b> deal with a dwarf (my Swashbuckler being one of them) then I don't see the problem here.

[WeatherMan]

<cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>see that bolded part? it's incorrect. the ONLY 'integrated' society of Norrath is the adventurers. </blockquote>Then explain why the Banker in NFP is a Halfling (and yes, I /bugged it shortly after she went in and it's not changed so must be intended). <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Nobody ever said anything about trade secrets being given to other races, I simply said that a racially influenced piece of armor could be made for anyone to wear. Since it is we, the adventurers, who will be doing the crafting, then yes, it is Norrath's integrated society that the wearability of said pieces should decide who can wear it, not the minority of NPCs. And since there are TONS of self respecting Tier'dal who <b>would</b> deal with a dwarf (my Swashbuckler being one of them) then I don't see the problem here.</blockquote>The contention that adventurers are the only truly integrated society is assuming quite a bit, but for argument's sake, we'll assume it is correct.However, Snowie has this one pegged.Example: A Teir'Dal shadowknight with her <i><b>Breastplate of Thex </b></i>(just made something up) gets munched like a Triscuit by some kobolds in the Butcherblocks.  Her traveling companion, a rather chaotic-minded Koada'Dal berserker, buries her friend and appropriates the choicest articles of gear for herself, among them the breastplate.When she puts it on, it will not automatically morph into the <i><b>Breastplate of Felwithe's Memory</b></i>.  It is still going to look exactly the same as it did before.  She will look like a high elf in a Neriak-forged dark elf breastplate.  Period.  End of controversy.As far as trade secrets go, that is solved with one word: Betrayal.

[Valentina]

<cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>see that bolded part? it's incorrect. the ONLY 'integrated' society of Norrath is the adventurers. </blockquote>Then explain why the Banker in NFP is a Halfling (and yes, I /bugged it shortly after she went in and it's not changed so must be intended). <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Nobody ever said anything about trade secrets being given to other races, I simply said that a racially influenced piece of armor could be made for anyone to wear. Since it is we, the adventurers, who will be doing the crafting, then yes, it is Norrath's integrated society that the wearability of said pieces should decide who can wear it, not the minority of NPCs. And since there are TONS of self respecting Tier'dal who <b>would</b> deal with a dwarf (my Swashbuckler being one of them) then I don't see the problem here.</blockquote>The contention that adventurers are the only truly integrated society is assuming quite a bit, but for argument's sake, we'll assume it is correct.However, Snowie has this one pegged.Example: A Teir'Dal shadowknight with her <i><b>Breastplate of Thex </b></i>(just made something up) gets munched like a Triscuit by some kobolds in the Butcherblocks.  Her traveling companion, a rather chaotic-minded Koada'Dal berserker, buries her friend and appropriates the choicest articles of gear for herself, among them the breastplate.<b>When she puts it on, it will not automatically morph into the <i>Breastplate of Felwithe's Memory</i>.  It is still going to look exactly the same as it did before.  She will look like a high elf in a Neriak-forged dark elf breastplate.  Period.  End of controversy.</b>As far as trade secrets go, that is solved with one word: Betrayal.</blockquote>Except that, as I already pointed out, this supposedly slavish adherence to reality does not extend to the fact that, if her traveling companion was an ogre, said breastplate would still fit just fine.  I'm not sure why you two are so fixated on the idea that armour cannot change appearance for different races, when it clearly already changes size to accomodate them.  (It also ignores the fact that we already have clothing that looks ENTIRELY different on females vs. men; like any of the tradeskilled statless outfits, which are always dresses on women and always pants and shirts on men)Anyway, I'm not going to bother arguing about it at any greater length.  As with most message board debates, this won't go anywhere fast.I'll just close by saying that, regardless of how it's accomplished, I'd like to see more variety in the armours and clothing available.  With the skeletal revamp tabled, we'll have to wait and see (again) how/if SOE will accomplish that.

[Terron]

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>That's a pretty narrow view of how armor made with a specific races "flavor" would work. Just because a Dark Elf made a <i>Tier'dal Breastplate of Malice</i>, doesn't mean they had to of made it for a Dark Elf<b>. Couldn't a Dwarf commission a Dark Elf Armorer to create them a <i>Tier'dal Breastplate of Malice</i> just like a Dark Elf can?</b> <b>Of course he could. We live in a Norrath that is an integrated society. So there goes that narrow real life perspective out the window.</b></blockquote>see that bolded part? it's incorrect. the ONLY 'integrated' society of Norrath is the adventurers. there is no way in Innoruuk's cauldron that a Tier'dal would do ANYTHING for a dwarf other then kill him in the most painful way possible.</blockquote>Sure there is. All it needs is a Tier'dal who remembers that a dwarf's <a href="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gold glitters as much as anyone else's</a> (possibly more depending how much time the dwarf spends polishing it).

[Beldin_]

<p>If we ever get something like racial armors here, i bet the next day our sun will turn into a super-nova.</p><p>Its really totally senseless to talk about that since we don't even get any new NON-racial armor in 10 years <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Btw. is it normally so that the SAME armor just looks different on different races. What you are talking here about now would also need a big revamp in the crafting system. And even since Domino is a person who can maybe do that, we still have only the old boring models, and all she can do is to give maybe the T3 Dwarven Chain the uber-look of the Soothfoot Chain, while the Teir-Dal Chain in T5 will get this look. Or simply Teir-Dal will have Ebon Look in ALL Tiers, and Dwarven is Silver in all Tiers ..</p>

[Snowdonia]

<cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If we ever get something like racial armors here, i bet the next day our sun will turn into a super-nova.</p><p>Its really totally senseless to talk about that since we don't even get any new NON-racial armor in 10 years <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Btw. is it normally so that the SAME armor just looks different on different races. What you are talking here about now would also need a big revamp in the crafting system. And even since Domino is a person who can maybe do that, we still have only the old boring models, and all she can do is to give maybe the T3 Dwarven Chain the uber-look of the Soothfoot Chain, while the Teir-Dal Chain in T5 will get this look. Or simply Teir-Dal will have Ebon Look in ALL Tiers, and Dwarven is Silver in all Tiers ..</p></blockquote>Game's not even 4 years old yet but I'm sure you were meaning that as an exageration.As for what we're talking about with the same armor looking different depending on what race equips it, that's a throw back from EQ1 that never made it to EQII (thankfully). In EQ1, if a Dark Elf equiped <i>rawhide leggings</i>, they would have a very different graphic to a Dwarf equiping the same piece. This wouldn't require a big revamp to the crafting system at all, just a big overhaul to the art per race which I doubt the art department would want to do (not to mention it just not making sense). Adding cultural armor wouldn't require a big overhaul either but again, it would require loads of art department time to create these new culturally influenced looks. We're not asking that cultural armor be more rehashes, we're wanting them to have new and individual appearances only to that races specifically made armor. In other words, a pipe dream that, as you say, our sun would super nova the following day if it ever came to fruition. But hey, one can dream and since this thread isn't good for much else anyways, why not?

[Scrappe]

<cite>Eschia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>youtube.com/watch?v=HokbrASX-uoI noticed this video on YouTube which shows alpha stage E3 footage of EQ2. In the video the advertiser mentioned the armor was already supposed to be set to scale with each race. He showed a human then a ogre both wearing the same armor. I thought it was pretty good. I guess a lot of things got scrapped before release. The armor that human female wore was pretty awesome. Now that (6 years?) time has passed i think it might be ok to bring some of that stuff back. I'm sure most people have dual cores (except me lol).</blockquote> Oh, this is rockin. The replies to the video state that EQ2 underwent a major graphics downgrade prior to release to support current day high end consumer systems. Check out this reply... <a href="http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/Devastation74/?action=view&current=post.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/Devastation74/post.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[Llach]

<cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>As for what we're talking about with the same armor looking different depending on what race equips it, that's a throw back from EQ1 that never made it to EQII (thankfully). In EQ1, if a Dark Elf equiped <i>rawhide leggings</i>, they would have a very different graphic to a Dwarf equiping the same piece. This wouldn't require a big revamp to the crafting system at all, just a big overhaul to the art per race which I doubt the art department would want to do (not to mention it just not making sense). Adding cultural armor wouldn't require a big overhaul either but again, it would require loads of art department time to create these new culturally influenced looks. We're not asking that cultural armor be more rehashes, we're wanting them to have new and individual appearances only to that races specifically made armor. In other words, a pipe dream that, as you say, our sun would super nova the following day if it ever came to fruition. But hey, one can dream and since this thread isn't good for much else anyways, why not?</blockquote>And as we know they much prefer to rehash the same old crap, whilst bullsh*tting us about their plans for the future.

[Beldin_]

<cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>As for what we're talking about with the same armor looking different depending on what race equips it, that's a throw back from EQ1 that never made it to EQII (thankfully). In EQ1, if a Dark Elf equiped <i>rawhide leggings</i>, they would have a very different graphic to a Dwarf equiping the same piece. This wouldn't require a big revamp to the crafting system at all, just a big overhaul to the art per race which I doubt the art department would want to do (not to mention it just not making sense). </blockquote><p>Yeah thats also like it is in Lineage for example, however its another think as if the look is diffent depending on who has crafted it. Also then what should be with dropped armor ? I can already hear the people cry that crafted armor has differenr looks, while their fabled all look the same, and then we need an extra menu, where you can choose who crafted the dropped armor before you loot it, or whatever <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Or a new TS skill .. armor crafter changer <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[-Arctura-]

(( they didnt downgrade the graphics engine...Some zones received major overhauls and certain armor sets were removed from what we saw in Alpha.But the same normal map and bump mapped textures remain the same... All they did was remove some of the dynamic lights from the areas which they featured from their demo-test areas.Eg. To properly view the full beauty of normals maps, you need special lighting conditions. If you play the game even on the highest settings, you wont see all of the great normal and bump mapped details unless you have a torch or light source equipped, and even then it wont look right depending on the lights placement.

[cylr]

<cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b>Btw. is it normally so that the SAME armor just looks different on different races.</b> What you are talking here about now would also need a big revamp in the crafting system. And even since Domino is a person who can maybe do that, we still have only the old boring models, and all she can do is to give maybe the T3 Dwarven Chain the uber-look of the Soothfoot Chain, while the Teir-Dal Chain in T5 will get this look. Or simply Teir-Dal will have Ebon Look in ALL Tiers, and Dwarven is Silver in all Tiers ..</p></blockquote>Oh please NO! EQ1 did that and it was a nightmare. Giving gifts of armor to friends of a different race (or and alt) could really backfire when what was cool on you turns into sack-cloth-street-walker clothing on them. Equally bad was after spending a lot of time leveling a character only to find out the art team feels your race dresses like a clown re-enactment of little house on the prairie. Would you re-roll or suffer it while complaining on the forums?

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">If they did the racial armor thing, it would have to look the same wether worn by a Human or an Ogre. a Kilt should look like a kilt no matter who wears it same with a dress vs gender or male clothing (other then a bra function PG13 rating and all) Beware of Pink cross-dressing Ogres! lol</span>

[Ashlian]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">If they did the racial armor thing, it would have to look the same wether worn by a Human or an Ogre. a Kilt should look like a kilt no matter who wears it same with a dress vs gender or male clothing (other then a bra function PG13 rating and all) Beware of Pink cross-dressing Ogres! lol</span></blockquote>Grrr, post poofed and yet appeared with nothing but the quote /sigh. See below.

[Ashlian]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">If they did the racial armor thing, it would have to look the same wether worn by a Human or an Ogre. a Kilt should look like a kilt no matter who wears it same with a dress vs gender or male clothing (other then a bra function PG13 rating and all) Beware of Pink cross-dressing Ogres! lol</span></blockquote><p>Barring the fact that I do want male and female clothing to have separate graphics, I would have no objection to racial clothing if it did indeed have the same graphic for all races. It WOULD be nifty to be able to purchase barbarian kilts or outfits that could show off the racial tattoos of a barbarian that would incidentally also show off other racial tattoos, or evil dark elf plate or fancy high elf caster robes, etc. I think it would add a lot of welcome diversity to the game, and we KNOW we need some diversity in the armor designs by now! I'm still waiting to see what the "snap on" thingies are, but I confess I don't have a lot of hope now that they've abandoned the skeletal revamp. At the very least, they can start adding more diverse tinting to what we have ingame though and get some of those armor models off the npc's and into our hands.And at this point, having failed us pretty miserably on that account.....it's time to revisit the dye issue! Even if they allowed it only for crafted armors, or nothing above treasured, it would appease us somewhat to have that ability. And please don't trot out the tired old "I don't want to see ogres wearing pink" because, honey, you already can. In lovely pink outfits the devs themselves designed, like that gorgeous fabled pink scout armor for instance....I mean, all scouts want to stand up in fuschia and say LOOK AT ME OVER HERE when going in and out of stealth. Not to mention mages can actually CHOOSE to wear Blistered Strand in appearance if they want to represent the Tropicana Fruit Company or remind us that bananas are healthy for you. </p><p>So let's not go there! I think most players honestly CAN do better if they wish and with appearance slots it's not like you aren't already out there with Santa tanking in August! I want my dyes I had in EQ1 for heaven's sake! It's perfectly possible, if not easy for them to code tinting in, as long as you don't mind the entire graphic being tinted the color of your choice, and I think we can live with that. That's what the option to RETURN IT TO NORMAL was always for. If the devs can't do what was promised, throw us a bone or two. Thank you!</p>

[Beldin_]

<p>Btw.: I want flying swords <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p><img src="http://beldin.be.funpic.de/pw/2008-08-08%2005-02-40.jpg" alt="" border="0" /></p>

[Snowdonia]

Heck, I'd just love those heels. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Valentina]

<cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Heck, I'd just love those heels. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>On that, we can agree.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I can only assume SOE will show -something- off at the Fan Faire, so we'll at least have some idea what their newest solution is, now that they have abandoned the skeletal revamp we've been expecting for years.

[Beldin_]

<cite>xsikal wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Heck, I'd just love those heels. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>On that, we can agree.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I can only assume SOE will show -something- off at the Fan Faire, so we'll at least have some idea what their newest solution is, now that they have abandoned the skeletal revamp we've been expecting for years.</blockquote><p>Didn't they already "showed" something last year on Fan Faire ? So if they show something different or even the same this year, is there any reason to believe that they will really do something ?</p><p>Sorry, but i have lost faith in that already long ago, and what we heared now is only the confirmation for me, that they simply have no active artists and engine programmer, or just some that only work to recolor some armor for new expansions.</p>

[Valentina]

<cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>xsikal wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Heck, I'd just love those heels. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>On that, we can agree.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I can only assume SOE will show -something- off at the Fan Faire, so we'll at least have some idea what their newest solution is, now that they have abandoned the skeletal revamp we've been expecting for years.</blockquote><p>Didn't they already "showed" something last year on Fan Faire ? So if they show something different or even the same this year, is there any reason to believe that they will really do something ?</p><p>Sorry, but i have lost faith in that already long ago, and what we heared now is only the confirmation for me, that they simply have no active artists and engine programmer, or just some that only work to recolor some armor for new expansions.</p></blockquote>Yeah, I am not saying that SOE showing us something at the fan faire means that we will ever actually benefit from it in-game.  I would think the skeletal revamp (and the ~5 years of 'working on' new models in EQ1 without ever releasing them), had taught us all that lesson.However, it at least gives us something to discuss or debate.  At the moment, all we really have is a general desire to have more variety in appearance, and a vaguely worded answer from SOE in the last dev chat as to what their next approach is going to be.

[ke'la]

<cite>xsikal wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>xsikal wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Heck, I'd just love those heels. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>On that, we can agree. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I can only assume SOE will show -something- off at the Fan Faire, so we'll at least have some idea what their newest solution is, now that they have abandoned the skeletal revamp we've been expecting for years.</blockquote><p>Didn't they already "showed" something last year on Fan Faire ? So if they show something different or even the same this year, is there any reason to believe that they will really do something ?</p><p>Sorry, but i have lost faith in that already long ago, and what we heared now is only the confirmation for me, that they simply have no active artists and engine programmer, or just some that only work to recolor some armor for new expansions.</p></blockquote>Yeah, I am not saying that SOE showing us something at the fan faire means that we will ever actually benefit from it in-game. I would think the skeletal revamp (and the ~5 years of 'working on' new models in EQ1 without ever releasing them), had taught us all that lesson.However, it at least gives us something to discuss or debate. At the moment, all we really have is a general desire to have more variety in appearance, and a vaguely worded answer from SOE in the last dev chat as to what their next approach is going to be.</blockquote>Based on how I parsed the wording on what they said on the dev chat. They are in the early stages of this latest version of doing something. Meaning nothing "Other then words" will be showen at Fan Faire on this issue, Maybe by next Fan Faire they will have faked something up but I doupt they will have something this year.

[Rorasis]

Wow.  Does SOE even care about this game, or the people that play it?  Did it really take them two years to figure out that it wouldn't work, or were they just holding it out like bait all this time?

[Qandor]

<cite>Riliszkas@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow.  Does SOE even care about this game, or the people that play it?  Did it really take them two years to figure out that it wouldn't work, or were they just holding it out like bait all this time?</blockquote>I'm certain it was bait. Now it is time to change bait since the other was lost. The new bait is called "snap ons" and surely that bait can last them two more years. Next years fan faire will show the first example of snap on and the folowing year just prior to fan faire they will tell us that snap ons didn't work out. SoE has always played their customers for dopes. Really has worked out well for them too. They have managed to go from a huge chunk of the market in EQ's heyday to merely a footnote today.

[Rorasis]

<cite>Qandor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Riliszkas@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow.  Does SOE even care about this game, or the people that play it?  Did it really take them two years to figure out that it wouldn't work, or were they just holding it out like bait all this time?</blockquote>I'm certain it was bait. Now it is time to change bait since the other was lost. The new bait is called "snap ons" and surely that bait can last them two more years. Next years fan faire will show the first example of snap on and the folowing year just prior to fan faire they will tell us that snap ons didn't work out. SoE has always played their customers for dopes. Really has worked out well for them too. They have managed to go from a huge chunk of the market in EQ's heyday to merely a footnote today. </blockquote>The Vanguard team has been able to come up with new models for the males and females of 19 races in just a few months.  All of the models are being unveiled at fan faire.  Everyone complained about how bad Vanguard's engine is, when it's really EQ2 that has the terrible design.  Can't they get anything to work with this game?  Will they ever try to revamp the engine?  It's sad, really.  EQ2's engine is just a big joke.  "Built for future hardware" that never came to pass.  They should have redone it when the problem came up.

[Seiden]

if the sarnaks use the new skel system, then color me unimpressed. The sarnaks are badly animated, and low polly

[Dreyco]

Could it be a bait and switch? I guess.  But I wouldn't be surprised if the whole "The software didn't work out" is just something that they are being told to tell us about it.  I think we should get a better dev response than that at this point.Because honestly, as Lotus pointed out, the Sarnak USE the new skeleton.  So the software has to work with the game, else we wouldn't have Sarnak.  That is, unless, that also wasn't true either <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />So what is it? And can we please get an explanation as to what these snap ons are, and what you mean by changing "Someone's sihlouette"?

[CorpseGoddess]

<cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Heck, I'd just love those heels. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>Heck yes!  Tall boots!  Boots to my knees, please!

[Chay]

FYI for the time being I've cancelled my accounts because they lied, strung people along, and used Lucasisms for shotty rationale. I've pretty much come to realise that SOE has no idea how to manage the game. This game is going to die a slow death unless something positive happens. The new expansion sounds blah.I'll be moving from the PW-My Servers to PW International when it goes live while I try to find something better.SOE has let me down and to all those that scoffed when I said "mythical skeletal revamp" or when I was impatient: I told you so.Small Print(I reserve the right to change my mind though.)

[Sar]

<p>I'd be happy with more hair sytles... hair pieces or items... make up... etc. Id also be happy with the ability to change your race at least once.... along with being able to claim all past claimable items that may have been deleted or lost! Weeee.</p><p>Oh,.... and I want to be able to reset my factions individually. (don't ask, cos I'm not sure lol)</p>

[Sophiera]

<cite>Chayna wrote:</cite><blockquote>FYI for the time being I've cancelled my accounts because they lied, strung people along, and used Lucasisms for shotty rationale. I've pretty much come to realise that SOE has no idea how to manage the game. This game is going to die a slow death unless something positive happens. The new expansion sounds blah.I'll be moving from the PW-My Servers to PW International when it goes live while I try to find something better.SOE has let me down and to all those that scoffed when I said "mythical skeletal revamp" or when I was impatient: I told you so.Small Print(I reserve the right to change my mind though.)</blockquote>My husband and I are in the PWI closed beta starting August 19th <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> We are very excited about it.I am incredibly disappointed about the whole skeletal revamp, I was so looking forward to it. If I didn't have good friends still in the game I think I would probably cancel my account also.SOE really only seems to care about money and not about their customers, which is completely ridiculous when you think about it...sigh.

[Cassea]

Does anyone seriously think that it took 2 years for them to find out it would not work?They had two years and this is the best lie they could come up with?This is all about $$$. They do not want to spend the $$$ to redo the games graphics.A few years after EQ1 was out they not only redid the graphics but they gave us new disk that upgraded the textures for the entire game! SOE can do what they want and they do not want this.They want us to think that it is a technical issue. Does anyone really buy that? I smell beancounters all the way!Want to know what a snap-on really is? It's when you overlay graphics on top of your toon. The problem with this is that it adds polys to the game and slows it up. Right now each toon is made up of x number of polygons. The polygons are "filled in" with textures. These textures can look like skin, armor, leather etc... and this is why the armor does not look real. Instead of appearing on top of your skin, it literally becomes your skin. Snap ons mean that they actually put additional polys on top of your toon and if done right they can look great. They apear as real armor/clothing/whatnot because they actually are added on top of your toon instead of just changing one skin texture for another.They always had this option even from day one to do this. So why was this not in the game from day one? Because adding 20-30% more polys to each players can cause a "huge" increase in graphics requirements if the graphics engine is required to draw all the polys... in other words (and I think this was the reason they wanted to update the skeletal system) the game will draw everything... even what you cannot see.Example: (numbers used are just an example and not real)EQ2 currently draws 500 polygons (triangles) for each player and then sections of your toon are "skinned" via adding textures to give your toon the illusion of wearing cloths/armor or whatnot. As I said before this does not look as good because the armor looks like it's painted on your skin instead of being on top of your skin.So they add snap-ons which add another 200 polygons (or more) on top of your toon. Now your computer/CPU/vid card has to draw 40% more polygons per toon! With a new skeletal system they would not have to draw polys that are not seen and adding new armor would not increase the workload on your computer. The drawback is that a new skeletal system would require the entire games player graphics to be redone.Adding snap ons allows them to keep the existing game as is.Snap ons can work but only if they off-loaded the graphics work to our video cards and right now this does not occur. We have expensive advanced video cards that often have hundreds of special shaders to be used for special effects and EQ2 uses none of these because these shaders did not exist as the time the SWG/EQ2 engine was being made. EQ2 currently does not know how to use the most powerful part of current video cards!So what has been happening in the video card world is that they are moving toward increasing shader performance because this is what modern video games use and not increasing "raw" video card speed which is what EQ2 uses. This is why new video cards are often not much faster and in some cases even slower in EQ2 over your old video card. EQ2 is not using the new features added to video cards over the years.Why did I get into video cards? Because, as hard as I have been on SOE, if SOE moves to snap ons "and" updates EQ2's graphics engine to use shaders then this will work. It's not a very elegant way to to it but it will work.If SOE goes cheap and only hacks a few video fixes then snap ons will only slow down the game even more.

[Beldin_]

<cite>Chayna wrote:</cite><blockquote>FYI for the time being I've cancelled my accounts because they lied, strung people along, and used Lucasisms for shotty rationale. I've pretty much come to realise that SOE has no idea how to manage the game. This game is going to die a slow death unless something positive happens. The new expansion sounds blah.I'll be moving from the PW-My Servers to PW International when it goes live while I try to find something better.SOE has let me down and to all those that scoffed when I said "mythical skeletal revamp" or when I was impatient: I told you so.</blockquote>Yeah, i also maybe try the PW-I Server when they start, also Runes of Magic is maybe worth a look. The good thing is that you can just test these games at no cost. The next pay-game i maybe will take a look at is Aion. At the moment i also play again a little Lineage *lol*

[Noaani]

<cite>Cassea wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is all about $$$. </blockquote><p>To be fair, the character art team for EQ2 is very small, and those 2 years were largely taken up with 2 expansions, Unrest, Shard of Hate, Neriak, the tail end of class hats and 3 new races. Thats a lot of work for a small team.</p><p>The skeletal revamp was a project for them to work on between all of this, so 2 years to figure out that they couldn't get the models looking exactly how they wanted sounds about right to me.</p>

[Rorasis]

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cassea wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is all about $$$. </blockquote><p>To be fair, the character art team for EQ2 is very small, and those 2 years were largely taken up with 2 expansions, Unrest, Shard of Hate, Neriak, the tail end of class hats and 3 new races. Thats a lot of work for a small team.</p><p>The skeletal revamp was a project for them to work on between all of this, so 2 years to figure out that they couldn't get the models looking exactly how they wanted sounds about right to me.</p></blockquote>Why do people actually try to defend such sloppy jobs?  First with the engine itself, and now with the failed revamp of skeletons...

[Noaani]

<cite>Riliszkas@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cassea wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is all about $$$. </blockquote><p>To be fair, the character art team for EQ2 is very small, and those 2 years were largely taken up with 2 expansions, Unrest, Shard of Hate, Neriak, the tail end of class hats and 3 new races. Thats a lot of work for a small team.</p><p>The skeletal revamp was a project for them to work on between all of this, so 2 years to figure out that they couldn't get the models looking exactly how they wanted sounds about right to me.</p></blockquote>Why do people actually try to defend such sloppy jobs?  First with the engine itself, and now with the failed revamp of skeletons...</blockquote><p>Not defending anything (in fact, if you look back through this thread, I was the first to predict that the revamp was not happening, months before the devs mentioned it).</p><p>The development team make enough mistakes, for which we should all try to hold them accountable as appropriate, but when unfounded criticism is launched, it is often best to point out the flaws in said criticism.</p>

[ganng]

<p>Geez, when I was younger I might agree with the haters bashing the devs.  However having worked in the biz for a bit I can say the problem is not the devs it is the system.  Give them a shot and they will eventually get MGMT to see clearly.  In that aspect 2-years is nothing I have been fighting a loosing fight for over 7 and every new system or applicaiton that comes in is comported to the vision of MGMT not the developers/programers or even users.  </p><p>Tell em the truth, work with thier vision as best as you can and try not to tell em I told you so on the way out the door... tis the life.   </p>

[Froed20]

Well, they better do something soon, because they're running out of colors to tint with.

[Dragowulf]

<p>My problem is that it took them roughly TWO YEARS (which could have gone to working more on an expansion and new content) to realize that the skeletal revamp that they were working on would not work and they have now scrapped it.  That was not only a waste of their time, but a waste of our money on something that we wont have and were expecting.  I was really looking forward to it, but now I'm utterly dissapointed.  They should have known that it wouldn't work on the current engine.  It's kind of weird though that Sarnak use the new skeletal system.</p><p>It could be about money or whatever, but I was honestly looking forward to it.  They have probably known that it wasn't going to work for a while now.</p><p>Next it's going to be the new map system that they have been talking about.   I'd bet money on it.</p>

[DamianTV]

Short Answer:  They dont want to divide the community by requiring players that have only DX7 compatible video cards to get the short end of the stick.  That would cost them money again.

[Cassea]

<cite>DamianTV wrote:</cite><blockquote>Short Answer:  They dont want to divide the community by requiring players that have only DX7 compatible video cards to get the short end of the stick.  That would cost them money again.</blockquote>Divide the community? For crying out loud DX8 and many DX9 cards cost about $30!I grow tired of people using obsolete computers and expecting everyone to be held back because they are too CHEAP to upgrade. We're not talking about $200 video cards or $200 CPU's but when a modern CPU costs $50 and video cards the same while they have no issue paying $15 a month... well it is cheap.We are on DX10 now. I don't think they even sell DX7 cards. You can buy a DX9 card for both PCI, AGP and PCIx16 so it's not like you cannot find them. I've seen DX9 cards for as little at $30 and decent ones for under $50. No these are not speed demons but they run rings around any DX7 or DX8 cards.You want to know who may still be using DX7 cards? Yep.... laptop users who bought cheaper, out of date, laptops with rotten video and would be locked out if they upgraded the graphics. These laptops are so bad that they have little memory and even share this limited memory with their junk video card inside.So how many years should someone expect to play on technology that was out of date the day EQ2 was released? This has always been a sticking point with MMORPG's because they have such a long shelf life. The vast majority of people slowly upgrade their computers but there are a few who just do not want to do so.Sorry about the tone but I have been listening to this excuse for years and one of the reasons I play EQ2 is because it does require a decent computer to play. If I had wanted to play a game on some museum computer I would be playing WoW <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I did have to laugh when you brought up DX7. People are talking about Sony upgrading EQ2 to DX10 and here comes a post that says, in effect, don't upgrade the graphics because then the DX7 people could not play.Are there really DX7 people who play EQ2 in existance? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />