Are SK problems only raid related?

[Jenguro]

I have a new SK alt that is level 28 with 28 aa, and I've really enjoyed playing him so far.  I've soloed exclusively, and I seem to be a *very* powerful soloer.  I've read many of the posts about SK problems, but most seem to be related to their role in raids.  Is that a fair assessment?  Will I have problems with group tanking (e.g. heroic instances) as I increase in level?  I'd not like to invest alot of time and energy into a character if I'll regret it down the road.  Thanks!

[Grimm79]

<p>Running instances with a SK is just fine! Admitted you'll hit a few bumps during the leveling up process but in the end there are few tanks who can keep up such a high pace in any instance <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> .</p>

[Tiberuis]

<p>SK's are an excellent choice for soloing the game, all the way up to level 80.  Not many classes are better.</p><p>Properly equipped, and with decent spell upgrades, an SK can also be a very effective group tank, if you work hard and play to the strengths of the class.</p><p>The downside with an SK is that once you hit 80, and play the ROK content, you will notice the other plate tank classes will be more powerful than your SK.  The other plate tank classes have better defensive and damage output abilities.  </p><p>This may affect your ability to get invited to tank perhaps only the high end instances like Maiden's, Chelsith, etc..  IMHO, you will not likely get picked to tank a high end instance over say, for example, a Guardian that is readily available.  </p><p>IMHO, you will also not likely get picked for raid spots based on your class abilities, if the other plate tank classes are readily available.  </p><p>And you will <u>probably never</u> get picked to MT a raid, if the other plate tank classes are readily available.  That is because the SK class is currently not balanced with the other plate tank classes in the game.</p>

[hukikatlok]

Being in a raid guild and mostly grouping with guild members exclusively it can be very difficult to keep agro since, all being very well equipped the true DPS classes are doing some incredible numbers. Sure we're flying through the instances but... when I am supposed to be the tank and the Scout ends up tanking 50% of the time it makes me feel as if I'm not much help. Gimped is becoming a truer and and more accurate description. I'm still hoping for a change.The Shadowknight was originally intended to keep agro through superior damage output according to my understanding and that is just not the case in T8. A design flaw by nature that had us working our butts off in the first 7 tiers but what has truly brought it to the surface has been all the + crit + spell damage + combat art gear in the game currently. It helps us, but it helps other pure melee or pure caster classes twice as much or more.I tend to focus on my performance versus the other plate tanking classes as I consider this my... competition for lack being able to think of a better word. The other Crusader class; Paladins, well they have amends and this one unique ability gives them superior agro control that the other 3 plate tank classes all envy. That said, otherwise they suffer much the same as we do with damage output and the balancing act of needing all the stats and all the bonuses from all the + damage types of gear. I know most Shadowknights don't think of them this way but, their damage output is also based on Intelligence. Haven't played with one lately though so if it's changed let me know. Least they get heals so the Wisdom is more useful and the + heal gear plays a role.Guardians and Berserkers... well yea this is what really brings the gear point home. They need melee stuff period. They are... simple. Intelligence is useless. Spell crit and added spell damage is useless. They can go crazy with the melee stat gear, double attack, melle crit, etc. Thus, since they aren't split they are doing incredible damage. They tank better through superior agro control and damage mitigation AND do more damage. Seems more than a little out of balance to me. This begs the question what is the SK's role. Cause this is the case no matter if it's a raid or an instance, if a group is lookin for a tank and have the choice... who do you think they'll pick first? Last?We solo really good, not the best but well. Solo play bores me to tears so... There ya go.

[Giral]

<p>in rok what are Sk's soloing ? </p><p>im pretty sure any class in the game can solo to 80 doing the quests in rok </p><p>any Sk's Soloing KC ? </p><p>any Sk's soloing any Herioc ^^^ in rok ? if so what ones </p><p>sure sk's were good soloers befor rok when Herioc mobs were easier, soloing thru sos, poa,nest,etc.... </p><p>but are sk's realy good solers in rok ? personaly id place sk's about 12th to 15th place in rok for soloing </p><p>group tank in rok ? every other tank is easier to use. and even some scouts are better to use as Mt's in groups they have better agro control,and 3 times the dps, something that dies in 5 seconds isnt going to do much damage.</p><p>I think ROk Herioc mobs are Just about were they should be in rok, personaly i think they should have a slight increase in Def/Dps,  Herioc even conmobs should  need a group of atleast 3 well geared people, 4 decent geared people, 5 crap geared players to defeat, yellow con 4 well geared,5 decent geared,6 junk gear , Orange con 4 very well geared, 5 very decent geared,6decent geared ,  Rok is pretty close to this and it defenitly helps the Grouping game in eq2.   </p><p>they could add in some ^^ heriocs with  3 or 4 ^ adds in zones to give sk's atleast 1/2 a zone full of linked mutli mobs to be able to use there dots./bring there dps up a little, and help a with agro </p><p>IMO Sk is 12 to 15 th place solo in Rok </p><p>4th, 5th or 6th place as Group tank </p><p>4th or 5th place as Raid tank/Raid Off Tank </p><p>Best at Nothing, and not even Equal with any other Tank in any of the 3 main Tank abilities Agro/Dps/Def </p>

[Margen]

<p>We are descent solers, but hardly great any more.  The ROK mobs just hit to hard and have to many hps for us to burn through them like we did in KOS or even to a lesser extent EOF.</p><p>Grouping we are also ok, but hardly the best due to our agro tools and our dps hasn't kept up with the dps classes (or the other tank classes).  But we can do the job, but we are hardly the best at it.</p><p>Raiding, this is where we are really hurting.  We dont fill the tank role as well as the other plate tanks.  Our dps is horrible compared to the other tanks and utility classes (won't even compare it to dps classes), and we really have no utility.  So there is no reason to bring a SK on a raid.</p><p>At the lower levels that the OP is at, the problems are not as pronounced and the class at lower levels can be a lot of fun.  You will find the class fun, challenging at times and fairly strong.  But once you get to the higher levels is when we start hurting.  If you want to play a fun class and level fairly quickly, then a SK is great.  But if you want to have access at the high end then you will see the problems we speak of.  </p><p>Unless they actually get a clue and look at these problems, which I doubt, heck the devs are posted in the Beserker forms they are looking at that class (granted they have problems also, but nothing compared to us).  Its really frustrating.</p>

[Phank]

<p>Pretty much, our weakness really shines, for lack of a better word, on raids.</p><p>We solo fine.  We do heroic groups with ease.  On raids we offer nothing.  Our spot is basically better used for almost any other class.</p>

[Gehemnishthex]

The only problem you'll get in a non raid environment is the rhetoric inherited from the raid game that the guardian is the only tank.

[Tiberuis]

<cite>Slagnath@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only problem you'll get in a non raid environment is the rhetoric inherited from the raid game that the guardian is the only tank. </blockquote><p>If you are happy with your SK Slagnath, I thing that is great  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But that does NOT change the fact that, all things being equal, a Guardian will Tank, AND DPS, the pants off an SK, hands down.  The more powerful the mob, the more obvious this becomes.</p><p>And that is neither fair, nor balanced. </p>

[Gehemnishthex]

Oh Definitely. I agree, it's sickening that they bill all 6 of the tank classes as being able to do the job with sleight variations when what they should have said is that there's a strict hierarchy of power and if you don't roll the best, expect to be treated like a second class citizen. I just know the SK can cut it in the single group game....But then again I've been hearing reports lately of brigands and swashies tanking RoK instances (as they can hold agro on the almost universal <b>Single Target Encounters</b>).  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Darkc]

<p>To be fair and honest, in group instances (especially Vaults) I destroy Guards and most of my group on parse.  Problem is that it takes the use of a 2h'er on most fights.  If you get the buffs to get near max DPS / Haste... and a little bit of Double Attack, you'll be doing fine.  If we get some Double Attack via AA (like 25% or so) and we'll be in good shape.  I usually hit 1500 - 2k ZW on Chelsith, Maidens, Vaults.  CoA can probably hit 2.5k+... depending on buffs.  </p><p> A major problem on raids vs group instances is that when we're tanking, we usually get the good buffs since you can talk your group members into buffing you since your aggro "depends on your DPS".  When they see you're doing great on the parse and the group is running smooth, then they have no problem with it.  On raids, I can't even get Illusory Arm over the Troub most of the time.  When properly buffed though, my damage is pretty solid.  </p><p>On higher end raids where you see these guards / berserkers parsing 4 - 5k. If you break down their damage, most of it is through auto attack.  Look at this thread for instance.... <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/11271-guard-dps-29.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...ard-dps-29.html</a>.  Almost 60% of that parse is Auto Attack.  Look at that hit rate, how many hits were crits, I'm sure most also were double attacks.  Then look at some of those combat arts hitting for 3k - 4k a hit on AVERAGE.   What do our spells land for again?  What's the Cast Time?  Recast?  </p><p> So we don't get the buffs, Combat Arts are doing more damage than our spells due to all the +crit / +CA mod gear out there (plus they're instant).  </p>

[Phelon_Skellhound]

Gonna have to agree with Darkc on this one... If you don't get the buffs, you don't do so hot. Voes and MC is cake to me... Chelsith i lil bit of a challenge... MC I need to do a few more times to get it down right... but on Raids... sorry dps buffs go to the scouts/mages who do more damage with out busting out a sweat... You will get the buffs you want/need if you can OT though :c)

[Hamervelder]

No, SK problems are not only raid-related.   We are weak across the board.  Heck, a decent swashbuckler or brigand can tank group content as well as or better than an SK.  We were okay before RoK, but post-RoK, forget it.  The encounters simply aren't designed for us.

[skycruise]

<cite>Darkc wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To be fair and honest, in group instances (especially Vaults) I destroy Guards and most of my group on parse.  Problem is that it takes the use of a 2h'er on most fights.  If you get the buffs to get near max DPS / Haste... and a little bit of Double Attack, you'll be doing fine.  If we get some Double Attack via AA (like 25% or so) and we'll be in good shape.  I usually hit 1500 - 2k ZW on Chelsith, Maidens, Vaults.  CoA can probably hit 2.5k+... depending on buffs.  </p><p> A major problem on raids vs group instances is that when we're tanking, we usually get the good buffs since you can talk your group members into buffing you since your aggro "depends on your DPS".  When they see you're doing great on the parse and the group is running smooth, then they have no problem with it.  On raids, I can't even get Illusory Arm over the Troub most of the time.  When properly buffed though, my damage is pretty solid.  </p><p>On higher end raids where you see these guards / berserkers parsing 4 - 5k. If you break down their damage, most of it is through auto attack.  Look at this thread for instance.... <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/11271-guard-dps-29.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...ard-dps-29.html</a>.  Almost 60% of that parse is Auto Attack.  Look at that hit rate, how many hits were crits, I'm sure most also were double attacks.  Then look at some of those combat arts hitting for 3k - 4k a hit on AVERAGE.   What do our spells land for again?  What's the Cast Time?  Recast?  </p><p> So we don't get the buffs, Combat Arts are doing more damage than our spells due to all the +crit / +CA mod gear out there (plus they're instant).  </p></blockquote>nice concise post.  this got me thinking, especially since someone got mad at me last night in a group for rolling on an item that had spell dmg crit and + spell dmg.  it also had str and int.   Get rid of our dmging spells and make them all combat arts and take away the casting time.    They would not interfere with the autoattack and be an add on to that.  I think we'd see some better dps with this.

[therodge]

to answer the ops question yes and no, the crusader classes are not na easy class to play well, the sk is probobly the harder of the two,  i am in a guild on kithicor called dark guardians, we have an sk called onayou, very dedicated player, very SMART person, he does about 1500 dps which is average, but i have yet to see ANY tank out tank him in a group instance hes not fabled out in mostly legendary gear, not sure how hes speced, but with the same mit and avoidance as me (i think hes at 53 mit and 55 avoidance) can pull 4 mobs in coa tank them with 2k+ dps in the group hold agro and have no power probems. DG has been together for 6 weeks now, been raiding 3 times a week, and we have are guild split between 3 MTs 2 guardians and the sk, and the sk is probobly the better of the three, as he tanks the raids as well as the guardians, without being one.

[gatrm]

<p>On a similar topic and considering the post-RoK problems SKs have, should I take my SK to 80? Currently I am having a blast tanking t7 instances and soloing t6/7 heroics. I am level locked and seriously contemplating staying in t7. Even if I do take him to 80, I am not looking to raid with him other than maybe an occasional p/u raid- I already get my fill of raiding on my 80 dirge. There are occasions however when people I normally group with want to use alts and we have need of a tank, which is the only reason I have considered leveling him.</p><p>Is t8 that much worse for SKs than t7?  I currently don't have trouble tanking or holding aggro, and if I do, DM snatches it back quick and guarantees I keep it for that fight.  This thread has a lot of mixed opinions, but as an SK would you rather still be hitting t7 stuff or even with all the problems is t8 the way to go?</p>

[Razlath]

<cite>gatrm wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>On a similar topic and considering the post-RoK problems SKs have, should I take my SK to 80? Currently I am having a blast tanking t7 instances and soloing t6/7 heroics. I am level locked and seriously contemplating staying in t7. Even if I do take him to 80, I am not looking to raid with him other than maybe an occasional p/u raid- I already get my fill of raiding on my 80 dirge. There are occasions however when people I normally group with want to use alts and we have need of a tank, which is the only reason I have considered leveling him.</p><p>Is t8 that much worse for SKs than t7?  I currently don't have trouble tanking or holding aggro, and if I do, DM snatches it back quick and guarantees I keep it for that fight.  This thread has a lot of mixed opinions, but as an SK would you rather still be hitting t7 stuff or even with all the problems is t8 the way to go?</p></blockquote>Even with the problems the class faces, I would want to hit T8 content.  There is a ton of enjoyment to be had.  I have enjoyed the heck out of tanking group instances with my SK.  There are some things I would like to see fixed, but nothing that keeps me from logging onto him every other day or so.  If all else fails you can mentor down to T7 if you don't like the experience.  You can't mentor up.  ;}

[therodge]

take him to teir 8, the reason for them "hurting" do to teir 8 isnt the sk class its more game mechanics, as far as a class they arnt doing that much worse. problem being is their arnt any multi mob encounters, and you wont get any weaker per say, if you mentor down back to 70 after 80 your not gonna be doing less dps or tank worse, i say run him up besides, if your a good sk you will be recognised faster then a good guardian becuase honestly they are rare