Templar Masters

[Magpie1]

Anyone know where these are? Im wondering if I need to do a master spell rain dance or something? Since EQ2 went live I have seen 1 master drop (T7 group cure last year some time) on a raid. I raid on average twice a week and I would guestimate conservitively that we average 2 master drops/week from raids. According to my maths that is like a 1 in 244 chance of dropping every week (2 masters a week x 3 years x 12 months x 4 weeks). If you worked that as a chance per named of dropping it would be more like 1 in 2000. I always put it down to bad luck but Im wondering if I am bugged ... should I petition? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[rollandheat]

Same here, I have seen 2 templar masters since beginning of the year. Most masters I saw were paladin, shadowknight. (our raid pala and SK are almost fully mastered while templar has only 2-3). Gratz SOE

[Kendricke]

<p>Raids have never been the place to pick up masters.  You'll have a much, much better chance of upgrading your Adept III's with trips to the broker and to group dungeons.  </p>

[Magpie1]

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Raids have never been the place to pick up masters.  You'll have a much, much better chance of upgrading your Adept III's with trips to the broker and to group dungeons.  </p></blockquote>Yep, was just poking a bit of fun at the drop rate of templar masters in raids compared to other classes.

[RingleToo]

<p>Templar Masters? Sure. And the abominable snowman exists too <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>The only thing rarer are Swashy masters. Or, for that matter, any master that any of my toons can use...those never drop either lol</p>

[Kizee]

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Raids have never been the place to pick up masters.  You'll have a much, much better chance of upgrading your Adept III's with trips to the broker and to group dungeons.  </p></blockquote><p>Does that seem really really dumb to anybody else?</p><p>You need to farm GROUP dungeons to get masters....but you don't need masters for group dungeons... you need them for raids.</p><p>SoE needs to up the drop chance in raids for master spells and/or eliminate them in group dungeons.</p>

[Magpie1]

I agree Kiz, it was kind of what was on my mind when I posted originally. Masters really arent needed for solo or group play. They are needed for raiding. Im not suggesting eliminating master drops entirely from group play but I think the balance should be toward raid play in this case. As Kendricke said, if I want my masters I really need to spend my time farming instances, which really seems a bit daft. To me, the whole point of raiding is to get the gear you need to progress raids and see the end game.

[Kendricke]

<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Raids have never been the place to pick up masters.  You'll have a much, much better chance of upgrading your Adept III's with trips to the broker and to group dungeons.  </p></blockquote><p>Does that seem really really dumb to anybody else?</p><p>You need to farm GROUP dungeons to get masters....but you don't need masters for group dungeons... you need them for raids.</p><p>SoE needs to up the drop chance in raids for master spells and/or eliminate them in group dungeons.</p></blockquote><p>Oh, I don't disagree.  I'm just stating how things are, not how I'd wish them to be.</p>

[RingleToo]

<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Does that seem really really dumb to anybody else?</p><p>You need to farm GROUP dungeons to get masters....but you don't need masters for group dungeons... you need them for raids.</p><p>SoE needs to up the drop chance in raids for master spells and/or eliminate them in group dungeons.</p></blockquote><p>Um, yes, you do need masters for group dungeons and even for soloing for that matter. As much as one "needs" them for raiding, anyway, in that you can get by without masters all together really. It would make things a whole lot tougher, but one doesn't really "need" them. </p><p>You eliminate masters from group dungeons, then for the most part only the elite raiding guilds will be able to get them (other then buying them). That leaves out the vast majority of the player base. As it is, there is a large part of this game now, i.e. lore, gear, etc., that is available only to a small percent of the player population. </p><p>I know the arguments that raiders should be rewarded for their dedication. But eliminating masters from group dungeons or even weighting the balance towards raid play isn't rewarding the raider. It's punishing everyone who can't be dedicated raiders. Which is most of us. If for no other reason, simply to make game play more fun for everyone, there needs to be a reasonable chance that anyone can get a master. </p>

[Kendricke]

<cite>RingleToo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Does that seem really really dumb to anybody else?</p><p>You need to farm GROUP dungeons to get masters....but you don't need masters for group dungeons... you need them for raids.</p><p>SoE needs to up the drop chance in raids for master spells and/or eliminate them in group dungeons.</p></blockquote><p>Um, yes, you do need masters for group dungeons and even for soloing for that matter. As much as one "needs" them for raiding, anyway, in that you can get by without masters all together really. It would make things a whole lot tougher, but one doesn't really "need" them. </p><p>You eliminate masters from group dungeons, then for the most part only the elite raiding guilds will be able to get them (other then buying them). That leaves out the vast majority of the player base. As it is, there is a large part of this game now, i.e. lore, gear, etc., that is available only to a small percent of the player population. </p><p>I know the arguments that raiders should be rewarded for their dedication. But eliminating masters from group dungeons or even weighting the balance towards raid play isn't rewarding the raider. It's punishing everyone who can't be dedicated raiders. Which is most of us. If for no other reason, simply to make game play more fun for everyone, there needs to be a reasonable chance that anyone can get a master. </p></blockquote><p>There's a huge difference between lacking incentive and punitive action.  Non-raiders aren't punished for not raiding, and certainly they wouldn't be punished if masters were available only on raids.  No one will come around knocking on doors to punch you in the nose if you don't raid or have your master level spells.</p><p>What it really comes down to is that many players who raid want their raiding gear upgrades to come from raiding - not from solo or group activities.  That's what's often referred to as "progression", the idea that you get better and better rewards through progressively more difficult gameplay.  What's not progressive to many players who raid is the idea that you can go on a raid, see a piece of loot drop, and realize that it's actually not an upgrade over the legendary gear you just picked up from Chelsith or Maiden's Chamber.  </p><p>What Kizee is saying here is that master level spells aren't needed for group level play.  To be fair, you raise a good counterpoint that they're not needed for raid level content, either.  However, once we bring the common progression argument into play, the points and counterpoints suddenly take on a different depth.  If Masters come from group or even solo content, then what happens on raids?  Do you get your fabled spell upgrades on raids...or not?  Where's the progression there?</p><p>Imagine if every single named in every single group dungeon dropped loot that was not better at all to tradeskilled items.  Would you feel that to be progressive gameplay?</p>

[RingleToo]

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>RingleToo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Does that seem really really dumb to anybody else?</p><p>You need to farm GROUP dungeons to get masters....but you don't need masters for group dungeons... you need them for raids.</p><p>SoE needs to up the drop chance in raids for master spells and/or eliminate them in group dungeons.</p></blockquote><p>Um, yes, you do need masters for group dungeons and even for soloing for that matter. As much as one "needs" them for raiding, anyway, in that you can get by without masters all together really. It would make things a whole lot tougher, but one doesn't really "need" them. </p><p>You eliminate masters from group dungeons, then for the most part only the elite raiding guilds will be able to get them (other then buying them). That leaves out the vast majority of the player base. As it is, there is a large part of this game now, i.e. lore, gear, etc., that is available only to a small percent of the player population. </p><p>I know the arguments that raiders should be rewarded for their dedication. But eliminating masters from group dungeons or even weighting the balance towards raid play isn't rewarding the raider. It's punishing everyone who can't be dedicated raiders. Which is most of us. If for no other reason, simply to make game play more fun for everyone, there needs to be a reasonable chance that anyone can get a master. </p></blockquote><p>There's a huge difference between lacking incentive and punitive action.  Non-raiders aren't punished for not raiding, and certainly they wouldn't be punished if masters were available only on raids.  No one will come around knocking on doors to punch you in the nose if you don't raid or have your master level spells.</p><p>What it really comes down to is that many players who raid want their raiding gear upgrades to come from raiding - not from solo or group activities.  That's what's often referred to as "progression", the idea that you get better and better rewards through progressively more difficult gameplay.  What's not progressive to many players who raid is the idea that you can go on a raid, see a piece of loot drop, and realize that it's actually not an upgrade over the legendary gear you just picked up from Chelsith or Maiden's Chamber.  </p><p>What Kizee is saying here is that master level spells aren't needed for group level play.  To be fair, you raise a good counterpoint that they're not needed for raid level content, either.  However, once we bring the common progression argument into play, the points and counterpoints suddenly take on a different depth.  If Masters come from group or even solo content, then what happens on raids?  Do you get your fabled spell upgrades on raids...or not?  Where's the progression there?</p><p>Imagine if every single named in every single group dungeon dropped loot that was not better at all to tradeskilled items.  Would you feel that to be progressive gameplay?</p></blockquote><p>I don't really have an answer for "progression". My opinion is that it hasn't been good for the game as it's been applied to raiding. Progression, at least, hasn't been good for those not in an elite raiding guild.  Though I don't have a good (or bad) alternative to suggest instead. As progression continues, however, I can foresee raiding being even further out of the reach of all but a few. So, sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but "progression" is putting an important part of the game, gear/content/lore/raiding, out of the reach of most players - the vast majority even. </p><p>There is and will continue to be plenty of loot progression in raiding. The best armor, weapons, and other items will make raiding worth while. Spell upgrades are not in the same category as gear upgrades. There are a wide, wide variety of different types of gear available, but there's only one spell upgrade (as loot) that's available. So, if there's one thing that you can get in raid zones as well as group dungeons, it's not an unfair thing that Masters be the one thing that anyone can get. </p>

[rollandheat]

I agree with Kiz in the way that master drops on raid should be increased and not restricted to lvl 75-80. Raiding is the only thing which keeps me playing EQ2, if I want to group, I will go to AoC. Anyway, all the instances are easy with decent group and who likes to to the same easy thing again, again, again and again. Its fun once in a while but I didnt get any masters from this fun.However, master drops shouldnt be removed from instances. Otherwise the instances would loose their purpose.

[Tylia]

I've been a casual player ever since I started playing in Nov of 06, though last summer I did raid several times every weekend.  Since last Oct because of work I have been unable to raid and can only play a couple times a week.  That being said, I have only  gotten one  templar master drop in all  the time  I have been playing.   It's no  big deal to me, I have adept 3's of all my spells, but it would still be nice to at least see one every now and then, even if it went to someone else in the group.  They do seem to be extremely rare.   Just my observation.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jonnytom]

<p>I am in a small/medium raid/family guild on the Everfrost server.  I have never seen a Templar master drop on raid but I have seen many masters drop on for other classess.  However, I gotten 7 off of RoK instance zones.    If SoE took master out of instance zones I would quit taking new folks into instances to get their legendary gear because there would not  be an off chance a master might drop.  On the flip side SoE would have to balance the master/gear drop ratio which would probably decrease the amount of gear dropped and this would upset many raid guilds.  </p><p>so far - </p><p>1 Chelsith</p><p>1 VoE (Vaults)</p><p>1 Maidens</p><p>4 CoA </p>