tanking in offensive stance

[Lord Hackenslash]

This was some advice posted by one of the top SK in the game when asked about holding aggro in a group setting. This does not apply to raiding as offensive stance is not an option to all but the top 1 or 2 SK in the most powerful guilds.---------------------------------------------------------------------"Tank in offensive.  Depending on your group try using a 2h, if they can keep you up and you aren't spiking too much go for it.  Do lots of DPS."---------------------------------------------------------------------So we are the tank with 25 - 35% avoidance in an avoidance based expansion. Its ok tho, at least we have less HP than all other tanks and um our best mitigation buff gives less than 400 mit on a single target fight which most ROK fights are. Good thing we have Low DPS to make up for all that. Sounds like our problems are solved. this is not a dig at the SK who posted the advice but an attempt to illustrate the lengths we have to go in order to do the same job other tanks do. In turn we make the grouping experience harder on our groups.

[ToxicHealer]

<p>Personally , if im the main tank in the group with my SK, i dont really worry about doing much dps.  That is the dps's job not the tanks.  I mainly concentrate on holding down the aggro and throwing out the life taps when needed to take some heat off the healer.</p><p> Sk needs some fixing thats for sure, i took mine up to 53 before i stopped and made an alt.  Ive been missing my sk as of late though and have heard a rummor that the devs are taking a look at fixing them at long last.</p>

[Norrsken]

<cite>ToxicHealer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Personally , if im the main tank in the group with my SK, i dont really worry about doing much dps.  That is the dps's job not the tanks.  I mainly concentrate on holding down the aggro and throwing out the life taps when needed to take some heat off the healer.</p><p> Sk needs some fixing thats for sure, i took mine up to 53 before i stopped and made an alt.  Ive been missing my sk as of late though and have heard a rummor that the devs are taking a look at fixing them at long last.</p></blockquote>I think yous hould check the ranger and coercer fixes that went down lately. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Hamervelder]

<cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>This was some advice posted by one of the top SK in the game when asked about holding aggro in a group setting. This does not apply to raiding as offensive stance is not an option to all but the top 1 or 2 SK in the most powerful guilds.---------------------------------------------------------------------"Tank in offensive.  Depending on your group try using a 2h, if they can keep you up and you aren't spiking too much go for it.  Do lots of DPS."---------------------------------------------------------------------So we are the tank with 25 - 35% avoidance in an avoidance based expansion. Its ok tho, at least we have less HP than all other tanks and um our best mitigation buff gives less than 400 mit on a single target fight which most ROK fights are. Good thing we have Low DPS to make up for all that. Sounds like our problems are solved. this is not a dig at the SK who posted the advice but an attempt to illustrate the lengths we have to go in order to do the same job other tanks do. In turn we make the grouping experience harder on our groups. </blockquote>I hope that I don't offend anyone when I say what I'm about to say.  Apologies in advance if I do.When the "top" players in the game give advice on grouping, you must consider the fact that they play completely differently than you and I do.  It's easy for a guy who has all the best gear, 60% mitigation, and 40% avoidance in full offensive to say "Use a two-hander".  What works for these guys who have the best of everything, won't work for the rest of us.  I think that sometimes (perhaps often-times), the top guys forget that fact.  That leaves players frustrated, because we see the uber guys doing stuff, and the uber guys act like "Hey, you can do this too!".  No, you can't.I'll tell you the guys that you need to track down and emulate:  The guys who are just wearing legendary gear, have Adept I's and maybe Adept III's, and somehow, in spite of not having the best of everything, manage to own the place.  The raiders in all their great gear .... they can't teach you anything.  What they do is great, and certainly takes skill and dedication in its own right.  But success in raiding != knowledge of and success at heroic content.  It's easy to tank group instances when you're in raid gear.  It's not so easy when you're a regular Joe.

[Nole]

Well, tanking in off stance with a 2h makes it ridiculously easy. You ARE at that point just DPSing (and remembering to hit your taunts as often as they come up). It's actually not a terrible idea if you can get away with it in any setting, particularly at pre-Kunark levels.  I think at 64, with a single healer in Kaladim I was able to take on about 2-3 pulls worth with a 2h in off stance near the entrance where mobs were still white to me. I suspect with a second healer (or at least one that could outparse my lifetaps on the healing meter) we'd have gotten much further.

[Nakash]

<p>Talking about Sk in its momentan state. (which needs some tweeks, but that should not be the point here)</p><p>Talking about level 80 with full AAs Legendary gear.</p><p>Tanking with a 2H in Instances depends massive how good youre avoidance is, that for, yes it depends on gear.</p><p>Equiping an SK right now, is massivle equiping againt the flaws we have in the moment. Less avoidance is one of them.</p><p>If you want to tank with a 2 hander then you get a massive loss in avoindance cause you lost your shield block abbility. You can eqip against this loss by using items with + defense and +parry, but that will not make equal for this loss. So using a 2 Hander is limited to instances where youre arent hard hit.</p><p>Beeing legendary in full INT gear or wearing mage like  stuff  and whielding a  2 Hander makes you woundable and it is only worth it if you are buffed enough (Haste/DPS) to get an advatage out of them.</p><p>Even in instance you can switch your weapon depending on encounter. using 2H for trash mobs and 1h shield for eg named.</p><p>Equiping SK is about finding a balance beetween damage gear and defense gear, and that new for every situation.</p><p>In legendary gear you often have to switch the gear depending on situation, Full Fabled gear has higher numbers and in instance you most likely dosnt have to switch that gear but believe me we have the same problem on raids and have to switch some gear and weapons depending on the situation there.</p><p>Only advice i can give is use diffrent types equipment set for diffrent situation. </p><p>And if you want to burn your way through an instance in DPS gear without hitting the flour sometimes is an extra healer more handy then another DD.</p><p>Dont give up and have fun.</p>

[Soefje]

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I hope that I don't offend anyone when I say what I'm about to say.  Apologies in advance if I do.When the "top" players in the game give advice on grouping, you must consider the fact that they play completely differently than you and I do.  It's easy for a guy who has all the best gear, 60% mitigation, and 40% avoidance in full offensive to say "Use a two-hander".  What works for these guys who have the best of everything, won't work for the rest of us.  I think that sometimes (perhaps often-times), the top guys forget that fact.  That leaves players frustrated, because we see the uber guys doing stuff, and the uber guys act like "Hey, you can do this too!".  No, you can't.I'll tell you the guys that you need to track down and emulate:  The guys who are just wearing legendary gear, have Adept I's and maybe Adept III's, and somehow, in spite of not having the best of everything, manage to own the place.  The raiders in all their great gear .... they can't teach you anything.  What they do is great, and certainly takes skill and dedication in its own right.  But success in raiding != knowledge of and success at heroic content.  It's easy to tank group instances when you're in raid gear.  It's not so easy when you're a regular Joe.</blockquote>Very well said.  I am an 80 SK with 135 AA in legendary gear.  I have 4 pieces of Onslaught and the rest is quested pieces.  The only fabled I have is the Band of Thuuga from a quest.  I have 2 master spells, 3 adept IIIs  (single mob taunt is one), other taunt is Master 2 and the rest are Adept 1.I do fine in most instance zones, if the group is willing to delay DPS long enough for me to get aggro.  I still lose aggro when I a Wizzy or Brawler crits their big hits, but usually by then it is no big deal b/c the mob is usually dead or almost dead.I can't do this with a 2-hander.  Even with 10.8 K Health, the mobs just hit too hard.  My avoidance is not high enough to stand toe-to-toe with the mobs.  With a shield I can survive.  It also gives me one more taunt to help hold aggro.  I have tried tanking with a 2-hander.  Can I do it, yes, but I will lose aggro and die more than I do with a shield.I have just become so frustrated with the SK class that I rarely play him now.  The only time is to level armorer side up.My brigand, guardian and warlock are much more fun to play right now.

[Giral]

<p>"Tank in offensive.  Depending on your group try using a 2h, if they can keep you up and you aren't spiking too much go for it.  Do lots of DPS."</p><p>the advice is perfectly sound ,  Depending on group TRY using a 2hander. if they CAN keep you up and you are NOT taking to much spike damage then your set . Do lots of DPS to help with agro/faster kills. </p><p>has nothing to do with being in the best gear or a raider. he didnt say " ALL sk's can Tank in Offensive Always with NO issue"  he said feel out the group , feel out your survivability and if it looks good GO for it . </p><p>he also didnt add in try going  offensive with sword and Board and still do more dps and still have some survivability .  with EPIC+agro on it, and a Good shield you should be able to tank most places in Offens 1h/shield</p><p>another option is to not use any stance at all. non of the positive but non of the negatives, and is another Option </p><p> Full defensive stance, FUll tank gear VS the hardest Zones/Mobs say lower Chardok , also shouldn't be a huge issue as you should be Telling your group you are in DEfensive/tank gear to ease the dps , and procedding at a slower pace .  communication is the key for any group and is a major deciding factor in a win or wipe </p><p> yeah there are issue's with Sk's in rok and we need tweaks to make us equal to our counterpart tanks. but trying to call someone out for giving good advice is bull,  i would give the same advice TRY it first and tweak your gear/weopns/shield/etc,, till you see what works with your group </p><p>i have dps gear/a mix of dps/tank gear and full tank gear , depending on the group i will mix and match accordingly, i have done all of chardok with a single warden healer in mix dps/tank gear/offensive stance, and i was just in a pick up group lastnight with a lvl 80 fury and a lvl 79 fury that couldnt keep me alive VS the first 2 names in Chelsith when i was in full tank gear .      Buffs/group make up/skill of group members/ there quality of spells/gear all add into the equation . and is another reason the OP said " TRY going 2 hand offense , if it works GO for it, IF it DONT then go to 1h/shield off. and then go 1 hand shield DEF , try differant armor set ups, etc,,,  </p><p>SK's need Tweaks thats for sure there is NO question,    but the Advice was sound for group player's. and trying to twist it becuase the person is a raiders doesnt make the advice any less true. </p><p>Edited to add ... Why do we even have a Defensive stance and able to equip 1 hand /shield if we arent ment to use them to TANK ?   you have Options ... Sk is not a Purely 2handed/Offensive Tank, we do need tweaks in both our Offensive and Defensive stance and skills/aa's,    2hand/offens against easy/medium mobs .. 1 hand/shield Def against Hard/hardest Mobs ,  the stances Lack what they need to be able to fill those roles, No agro/crappy surviability/very very low dps  in DEFense, and Low DPS/survability/agro issue in OFFensive = we need tweaks in BOTH </p>

[Lord Hackenslash]

I am not calling anyone out for giving advice, I am merely illustrating the things Shadowknights have to do in order to function. a Warrior with a buckler will do more damage than us and have 10-20% more avoidance doing it. In an expansion where avoidance is king, we are continually forced to hamstring ourselves one way or the other in order to do what others are counting on us to do.

[Lord Hackenslash]

I just Logged into game and wanted to give an example of my avoidance when in offensive stance. when wearing full tanking gear including Yha-lie bracer and Danak essence vial I am at 30% avoidance. I am a transmuter so i have every defensive adornment available on my equipment one of my wrists is only t7 but the rest is t8 and this is all I can get. compare that to any warrior with a buckler. I bet even with out the adornments they would surpass me by 10% avoid. This causes me to be a strain on healers.This keeps shadowknights from being viable in T8.Thank you.

[Lord Hackenslash]

to clarify, this was done with the Soulfire Longsword equipped for the 7 parry it adds.

[Beldin_]

The only thing you can do with tanking T8 with a 2-hander is annoy the crap out of your healers. Avoidance in offense with 2-hander is something around 18% while with a shield in offense its around 32-35% .. so the healers will have to heal nearly twice as much for what .. maybe 100 dps more ? Or maybe even less DPS because you get interupted more often ?

[Darkc]

<p>All this comparing yourselves to "fighters" no wonder you lose.  Fighters can't self heal, we do quite well.  Less Avoidance means that classes like Templars / Inq heal us even better.  All this QQ... I tank instances fine with my T6 Off Stance and a 2h'er.   I'm mostly in Legendary.  Just switch in a shield for tougher fights named fights.   You net much more than 100 DPS with the right 2h'er, especially with DPS / Haste buffs.  Fighting Multiple mobs and you have Trample, the gap widens even further.   The key is to make mobs die faster and thus you need less healing.  Paladin is your choice if you want the slow, but steady tanking route.   </p><p>Healers work harder?  It's pretty easy to heal anyone nowadays, maybe group with better healers if they're complaining.  </p>

[Pimmy]

<cite>Darkc wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>All this comparing yourselves to "fighters" no wonder you lose.  Fighters can't self heal, we do quite well.  Less Avoidance means that classes like Templars / Inq heal us even better.  All this QQ... I tank instances fine with my T6 Off Stance and a 2h'er.   I'm mostly in Legendary.  Just switch in a shield for tougher fights named fights.   You net much more than 100 DPS with the right 2h'er, especially with DPS / Haste buffs.  Fighting Multiple mobs and you have Trample, the gap widens even further.   The key is to make mobs die faster and thus you need less healing.  Paladin is your choice if you want the slow, but steady tanking route.   </p><p>Healers work harder?  It's pretty easy to heal anyone nowadays, maybe group with better healers if they're complaining.  </p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Fighters cant heal, thats right. But in RoK SK's lifetaps are too low to even think them useful. Mob single hit can do more than our long recast lifetap brings life back. So what's the [Removed for Content] use ?? Tap Veins is totally useless spell since there is only single mob encounters in RoK. (Ok VoES has encounters, whoopy [Removed for Content] doo one instance.) I have 12 T8 Masters from 75+ and not a single 71-74 (due to idiotic game design). I have legendary + fabled gear and  still I can't do even CoA on offensive stance (fabled epic + VoES shield, all equip adorned) on most normal healers unless they are from a raiding guild or otherwise very exceptional (like 1 of 100 players). So I default to Defensive stance always whether I'm just running through zones or grouping. If I help someone out killling soloable mobs I go offensive. If I farm kunark 1up names I go offensive when starting fight. If I go to an instance I go defensive and see or ask how good the healer(s) are and possibly switch to offensive.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: Arial;">I say Fix SKs. Give us real Defensive stance. Give us achievements that boost avoidance as well as DPS (look at a guardian, they are not DPS class but do a [Removed for Content] lot of dps and SK is offensive fighter= should do more DPS than guardian).</span></p>

[Beldin_]

<cite>Pimmy@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Fighters cant heal, thats right. But in RoK SK's lifetaps are too low to even think them useful. Mob single hit can do more than our long recast lifetap brings life back. So what's the [Removed for Content] use ?? Tap Veins is totally useless spell since there is only single mob encounters in RoK. </span></blockquote>Yeah, i remember in T7 zones i often was on the healparses next to druids .. last time i played my SK in CoA i healed maybe 1/10 of the healer. So one point more where we where indirectly gimped. But i know next someone brags that he pulls 8 triple-ups and tanks them in offstance with a 2-hander only with a necro as healer <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Bardrick]

Okay wait a minute, what the OP is trying to say is, taunting is use less?  Are you suggestion I use all my DPS skills and don't even waste time taunting?Right now, I preward, use our three taunts, then follow up with our three main life taps, well two life taps, and the AA coil gives.  I spam the taunts, and let the auto attack swing between the taps.  Reward if time is given for more threat, unless I have a shaman keeping me topped.I am in defense stance, and have a couple master taunts, and the rest of my base seven are adept 3.  I also only have 1 fable, 2 legendary (dog stuff) and the rest Di'Zok?? Mastercrafted, so I am average 80 Joe.  "IF" the DPS will just give me the 3-4 seconds to get my taunts off, I can do well.  However, the DPS monsters will always rip agro from me if they really want to.  Then I have rescue and deathmarch.  I always believed agro management was a team effort.I use this for epics, and or single pulls.  For heroic instances where you pull 3-4 at a time, I also use the AOE's we have unless we have a chanter.  Then you can still use the 3 AOE that are DD, and not DOT.If you can offer advise on a better tanking plan, please tell me, I am always open for more ideas.

[Razlath]

<p>I tank in defensive stance unless for some reason we are doing low blue / green con mobs, then I might switch to offensive.  If you are in offensive stance your healers have to work at least 15% harder (probably closer to 20% due to the defense loss as well as the 15% armor bonus loss) to keep you up.  This means they do not have as much time or power to do other things.  If you have a healer who doesn't want to do anything but hit the same 4 buttons over and over they might be cool with that, but most are not going to be very happy with you.  This will translate to a bad name for you in groups, and it will translate to a bad name for the class in general.  If we are going to tank, then we have to tank.  Our job becomes holding aggro, and taking as little damage as possible.  Ruling the parses dps or hps wise is not in the job description.  It is a shame that SoE forgot that with the guardians, but there isn't anything we can do about that.  All we can do is be sure that we are being the best tanks we can be, which IMO is directly counter to being in offensive stance.</p><p>Here is how I normally tank for heroic content.  Using this method I have little trouble with aggro and when I do have trouble I can look at the logs and see the resists as to why.  I provide this here primarily in response to the person who asked for other thoughts on how to tank.  I am not sure if this is different than he is doing, but in case it helps him, here it is.</p><p>When tanking heoric content, I move forward and body pull, then back quickly back to the party.  When the mob gets to just a little bit before where I want to park him, I hit my pull button which fires off my group taunt (btw, NOT a taunt over time) as well as my siphon strength.  Both can be cast on the run so as soon as I have hit that button I am charging forward and through the mob.  As soon as I get behind the mob, I hit my shield slam attack which will spin me to face the mob as well as stunning it and building some hate.  From there I immediately trigger a heroic opp which throws in grim coil, my single target taunt, and whatever the heoric completion decides to do.  This is also a great cue whether my taunt was resisted or not to myself and my group.  If the heroic advances but doesn't complete then my single target taunt was resisted, if it doesn't advance then it really doesn't tell anyone anything.  ;}</p><p>My pull button of course asks for time to position the mob correctly for the group.  If I am having a problem with people engaging before I have the mob positioned I will ask them to stop.  Often I will ask people to use the knockback from shield bash as their visual cue to start kicking the crap out of stuff.  ;}  If for some reason this isn't enough I will ask that they not attack until I hit my assist me button.  I am never asking for more time than what it takes to spin the mob, but sometimes poeple don't understand when you say wait until it is positioned before you engage.</p><p>Once engaged I focus on combat arts and life taps (basically things that cast fast so I am not stuck trying to cancel a spell if I don't like the way things are going).  I rotate through both group and single target taunt (tied to HOs) as quickly as possible using deathmarch as a primary rescue if we get wandering adds, or a bad trip through the RNG causes too many resists on my side and too many crits on the DPS side.  My primary abiliites in this method are pariah's strike, siphon vitae, fetid strike, sheild slam, legionnaire's strike (from int line), grim coil, kick, agonizing strike, and swift strike (I think that is all of them, and are names of either lines or spells I remember from the lines obviously I use the newest version I can get).</p><p>With this setup I have little problem with aggro and my healers can split their time between healing me and doing some of thier non-healy type stuff (buff / debuff, dps).  I am in all legendary gear with a STR, INT, STA focus.  I get hit a lot more than the equivalent warrior might, but that only helps with aggro due to our self buffs.  My spells are mostly Adept I with a few Master I's here and there.  I know my big life tap is M1, and my proc hate on getting hit, other than that I don't remember.</p><p>Can a DPSer still take aggro if they want it?  Sure, they could not wait for positioning, they could drop their biggest CA on pull, they could refuse to use any of their detaunt or hate transfer.  If you meet up with one of those, you have to decide if it is worth it to keep playing with them.  Ask in group chat if they would rather not have the mob spun.  Let them know that one of the primary tools of the SK is a taunt over time, and you won't have any problem holding aggro if they will just give you a second or two to get the mob where you want it.  Most players will be cool about it and the group will then proceed to kick the unholy crap out of stuff.</p><p>Anyway, hopefully that helps someone.</p>

[Darkc]

<p>There's more to healing than just 1) Click Tank 2) Heal.  Smart healers use stuns / stifles along with their heal types (DoTs, Reactives, Wards).  Many classes also use stuns.  Defensive stance is an "Oh sh$@" stance, we're offensive based tanks.  You're really gimping yourself trying to think Defensive is the way to go in Instance groups.  </p><p> Try rolling a healer... I have an 80 Templar myself, the damage you take and that from other tanks isn't that much different and I can keep my SK up in Offensive while BOXING the 2.  Kill mobs faster... the best way to save on healing.</p>

[Razlath]

<cite>Darkc wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There's more to healing than just 1) Click Tank 2) Heal.  Smart healers use stuns / stifles along with their heal types (DoTs, Reactives, Wards).  Many classes also use stuns.  Defensive stance is an "Oh sh$@" stance, we're offensive based tanks.  You're really gimping yourself trying to think Defensive is the way to go in Instance groups.  </p><p> Try rolling a healer... I have an 80 Templar myself, the damage you take and that from other tanks isn't that much different and I can keep my SK up in Offensive while BOXING the 2.  Kill mobs faster... the best way to save on healing.</p></blockquote><p>Obviously just different experiences and opinions.  I respect your opinion Darkc as you generally have really good advice, and I apprecaite what you are trying to do for the raiding SK community, but in this one I have to disagree.  To say that offensive is the smart way and defensive is gimping yourself I think you are doing a massive injustice to the class.  I hear the comments in just about every pickup group I join.  There is a perception out there that SKs are a crappy tank and hard to heal.  If people are running around tanking in offensive then I can safely stow away my surprise at why.  Of course you aren't going to wipe just cuz you go offensive, if only it were that easy.  Instead the healer has to work that much harder, and the next time they get a Warrior tank they go phew... glad we got a real tank this time.</p><p>When those healers take their opinions about poor SK tanking back to their friends do you think they will bother to mention oh the guy was in offensive (assuming they even know)?  Instead it is just one more chock against the SK perpetuated by us!  Do we really need to cause ourselves more problems than we already have?  When you take a tanking assignment for a group the group assumes you are doing the best job you can to fulfill the primary jobs of a tank (aggro and damage absorption).  If they have trouble keeping you up, or have to work harder they aren't going to say, hmmm wonder if he was in offensive?  Instead they say, man, SKs sure are hard to heal, no clue how I would keep them up against a real threat.</p><p>I do have a healer too, a lvl 50 inquisitor so I know that healers do more than heal (at least from an inquis angle).  It may not be my preferred class, but I do know how to play it.  I also know that if the person they are healing starts taking too much damage they are forced into a timer lock that lets them do nothing but drop heals.  A good tank will free me up to use my debuffs and put those reactives up.  A tank that does so I will try to group with again.  One that leaves me in timer lock too much I avoid.</p>

[Darkc]

<p>For us, there really isn't any "cookie cutter" situation were we always use defensive, offensive, a 2her, etc.   For instances it really depends on what instance, your group make-up, and how much you trust your healers.  Keep in mind, zones like CoA / Vaults were being tanked by lvl 75s in EoF Legendary when this expansion came out.  It's really not a stretch to be tanking in Offensive with a 2h'er as a lvl 80 SK with reasonable gear.  By reasonable I mean pieces with at least 500 Mitigation on them and appropriate Mitigation adornments.  </p><p> Also keep in mind that you can change stances almost instantly.  There's nothing that says you can't switch stances to adjust to the situation.  There's nothing that says if you're grouped with a particularly poor healer you can't adjust for the sake of the group.  At least in my opinion and personal experience (mileage my vary), the trade off from going Offensive to Defensive is not worth it.  We can put out respectable DPS in instances (1300 - 2k+ ZW is about what I'm netting) and if mobs die faster, you beat the zone faster, and you can do more stuff.  You can look me up on EQ2Players (Darkc on Mistmoore), my gear isn't great... as a matter of fact just a few days ago I netted the fabled pieces from PR.  I've tanked all the instances with a mostly a 2h'er in Offensive (CoA, Vaults, Chelsith, Maidens).  I can't think of a group I've been in with 2 healers.  </p><p>I'm not saying this to toot my horn, but because it can be done.  I have my Nathsar Sword and Arcane Stonewall macro'd, so I switch on a named fight or if we get an add.  I also switch to Defensive if I'm spiking too much due to adds... then I switch right back when the fight is over.  I use Death March as much as possible, I pull with Despoiling when I can can.   </p><p>On named, yes I use 1h / shield... only on the Scorpion in Maidens do I use Defense.  Trash 2h'er all the way.  Maybe I've been blessed with good groups since I usually group with guildees and the group DPS is usually 7k+... just my experiences though.    </p>

[DwarvesR]

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I tank in defensive stance unless for some reason we are doing low blue / green con mobs, then I might switch to offensive.  If you are in offensive stance your healers have to work at least 15% harder (probably closer to 20% due to the defense loss as well as the 15% armor bonus loss) to keep you up.  This means they do not have as much time or power to do other things.  </p></blockquote><p>Your mitigation swings 15% when you go in to Def Stance?  Mine only changes about 3.5% -- Don't forget the diminishing returns curve.  just becuz the raw mitigation number changes by 15% doesn't mean your effective mitigation does.</p><p>I hold hate better and do heckuva lot more dps (which also helps me hold hate) in off stance.  I only swap to def stance if there are 2+ adds and no mezzer, and a lot of times not even then.</p>

[Beldin_]

Yeah, the miti boost drom def stance is not big, i also mostly have tanked in off-stance and only for harder nameds used def-stance but mainly for the more avoidance. However i always have used a shield because i really don't want to tank with 18% avoidance. I have seen the difference when i first tanked CoA with my bruiser. Bruiser has 34% mitigation but he took 400k damage in the run while my SK took 700k the last time. So without a shield that would go up to maybe 1200k+ <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> 

[Razlath]

<cite>Jonna@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I tank in defensive stance unless for some reason we are doing low blue / green con mobs, then I might switch to offensive.  If you are in offensive stance your healers have to work at least 15% harder (probably closer to 20% due to the defense loss as well as the 15% armor bonus loss) to keep you up.  This means they do not have as much time or power to do other things.  </p></blockquote><p>Your mitigation swings 15% when you go in to Def Stance?  Mine only changes about 3.5% -- Don't forget the diminishing returns curve.  just becuz the raw mitigation number changes by 15% doesn't mean your effective mitigation does.</p><p>I hold hate better and do heckuva lot more dps (which also helps me hold hate) in off stance.  I only swap to def stance if there are 2+ adds and no mezzer, and a lot of times not even then.</p></blockquote><p>No, mitigation does not increase 15% armor effectiveness does (which I assume means the mitigation number on the armor itself is valued 15% higher).  That is then run through the diminishing returns model on mitigation which is then run through whatever formula determines mitigation percent.</p><p>Going from Offensive to defensive I gain about 5% mitigation.  I go from roughly 47% to 52% if I remember correctly.  Avoidance raises as well, but I don't remember those values as well.  I only remember the mitigation because I happened to be looking at it a couple nights ago because I was curious what my mit was after I had fully buffed the other SK who was tanking in the group.</p><p>I think about 5% seems about right though from the various times I have looked at it.</p><p>Using offensive stance to hold hate for me is not an issue.  I don't have trouble holding hate in defensive stance.</p><p>Defensive makes your taunts less resistable, increases your mit, increases your avoidance, and increases your saves in general (though not by much) and increases your disease resist a lot(not sure it matters a whole lot, but it does).  It decreases your weapon of choice skill (it actually decreases them all, but you can only use one weap at once so only one matters).</p><p>Offensive increases your spell damage, increases your power pool, and decreases your avoidance.</p><p>I personally happen to like the bonuses of the defensive stance a lot more.  Especially since the weapon skill loss is fairly easy to account for.  The only thing I really wish the defensive stance would add is a removal of the wis and addition of a true defensive skill (ie parry or block) like the other plate tanks enjoy.  I have messed around with both, and I feel like a defecient tank when in offensive stance.  I can literally see the mobs start parsing higher, and spikes become a lot more dangerous.  Maybe the time does even out the damage taken, I would have to run some tests zonewide to see.  But unless it produces a huge difference in damage absorbed I will choose the stance that makes me feel more like a tank and less like my brigand when the tank leaves the party.  I believe accepting a tank position means doing the best job you can to hold aggro and mitigate.  If I wanted to kick the crap out of the DPS parse I would play my brigand instead of my SK.  Is that the only way to think of a tank?  Obviously not, but it is the way I think of it, and what I expect of those who accept tank positions in my groups.</p><p>If you want to use offensive to tank, and it works for you and those your group with, then more power to you.  One of the coolest things about the SK class is that there are mutliple ways to play it.  I only have a problem when people are told that you are gimping yourself for tanking in defensive, or that it is dumb to tank in defensive.  If your style is offensive then the SK will work for you specced properly in offensive stance.  If your style is defensive then the SK will work for you specced properly in defensive.  As evidenced by the discussion here there are merits to both.  It basically comes down to personal style and preference and what your party will put up with (from both sides, are they ok with lower dps but less need for heals, or are they happier with a little more need for heals and higher dps?).  And as pointed out very aptly by Darkc, you can always switch if it isn't working for that fight, that group, or that moment.</p>

[Bardrick]

Just a crazy thought, but has anyone tried tanking in no stance?  I think I will try it this weekend and see what comes of it.  Need to finish my Skorpisis quest.

[Beldin_]

<cite>Bardrick wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a crazy thought, but has anyone tried tanking in no stance?  I think I will try it this weekend and see what comes of it.  Need to finish my Skorpisis quest.</blockquote>Better take the level 16 defense stance. The mitigation gain is the same as on the highest def-stance but it has only -4,8 melee skills at adept1.