Cities and Nostalgia

[Volkov545]

Now I know full well that eq2 has this wierd attitude of "we really don't want to be eq so we will deviate whenever we get a chance". But in reallity, this is everquest 2, you can't deviate THAT much. Having said that, I can't help but notice that kunark and faydwer are all but unreconizable as far as eq1 goes (yes I know time has passed, but seriously, I'm playing everquest after all). Why is it that Felwithe doesn't have any remnant of what it once was, and why is it that cabilis is a pile of arbitrarily placed iksar ruins? Some of the cities from eq1 had a life and sense of MMoRPG culture that simply isn't present in eq2. (the iksar city had water roads, the wood elven city had an amazing interpretation of a tree city, freeport was rank with corruption (without beating your head in over it), felwithe was grand, oggok was fitting, ECT.I know one of the selling points was yey, two huge cities in qeynos and freeport, but the size is more irritating then anything, and why bother to call this eq2 if theres nothing from eq1 recognizable in it. Although I havn't had the chance to fight in karnors castle yet, I will admit that entering the zone and seeing the front view does bring back memories, and a new vision of what new graphics and a new interpretation can do to a classic zone, but those thoughts are few and far between as far as this game goes. There was so much creativity and life in eq1, and it just seems that it is all destroyed and more or less ignored in an attempt to differentiate this game from the original. And I'm going to go ahead and be blunt on another issue. The music plain SUCKS. yes, it's amazingly orchestral, but again, devoid of life and character. This game has so much potential, but it falls far short of what it could be.

[Armawk]

<p>There are countless zones which look eerily like eq1 zones would have if the artists had had the kind of tech and resource available to make them that they do now.</p><p>Oh and You actually think felwithe eq1 is better looking than the eq2 version? a few badly textured boxes is better than the (not very original but stunningly executed) new tunaria? sheesh.</p>

[Transen]

Felwithe...the old Felwithe was completely destroyed.   According to the records kept by them, the dark elves and orcs ran the residents out of town.  The few that remained, retook the place but in the course of the battle, the valley in which old felwithe resided was destroyed as well and so with the help of some of those puck-wannabe's, they reexcavated the area and completely rebuilt Felwithe.Cabalis caved in...period.  What's left are the ruins of the old buildings <u>along the path</u> to Cabalis...the path that led to the Lake of Ill Omen (all of which was in the zone "Lake of Ill Omen" in EQ1).   Lake of Ill Omen, Swamp of No Hope, Field of Bone have been consolidated into one zone called, Fens of Nathsar since all of the natural boundries that used to seperate the zones were all but upheaved by the catatclysm AND the chunks of Luclin crashing down.As for the music...New Tunarian's in their attempts to become reborn as Elddar Elves have become extremely xenophobic and the fact that they strive for their idea of perfection, it's not too surprising that their music reflects that...perfectly executed melody but with no soul to it....in my opinion at any rate.Kunark...well, the Kunzar Jungle is mostly militaristic and thus so is the music...the rest of the Kunark zones (with exception to Gorowyn) I think has the best music in the game...especially in the area of Kylong Plains known as the Burning Woods (well, it's not burning anymore...had to go out eventually) is very exceptional.The links between the two games are there in abundance...you just have to <i>discover</i> it. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="" />

[Editedmind]

Nostalgia is poison to sense of reason.

[Volkov545]

<p>I have noticed the conections, but frankly, they are too few, or too butchered (Kelethin has gone from a woodelf city to a fairy acorn palace? and what the heck is with lesser faydark?) Now I know their are lore explanations for everything, but that doesn't make them good.. or original. It seems like eq2 was more or less made by a computer with a basic map of eq1 randomly adding in hills and water and then a dev coming back in and dropping a couple of eq1 buildings without really putting much thought into it. The cabilis road looks nothing like the originals, Karnors castle's exterior has lost a lot of the character the old ruins and walkways used to give it.. Little things like the karnor example that gave eq1 so much life are so lost here. In eq2 it's more like ok, we have room for the castle here, plop it down, in eq1 it was as if a third of the zone was spent building up to it. I havn't been inside kurns yet, however I'll admit the FoB does look decent, although I thought Kurns was on the outside of the ridge.. My point is, it's easy to keep a lot of the original stuff in tact, while still showing an aging process and creating a new gameplay experience. For example, what if kurns tower had been hit by a meteor and the top half had fallen over. The floorplan would be the same, except in the top half there could be hastily made wooden boards and platforms to make up for the fact that it's now sideways, and the bottom half could have a caved in problem that has been excavated in a way that doesn't agree with, but overlaps the original floorplan. For example, if the tunnel was to enter a room where the door didn't exist before, it could be made obvious that the room was broken into. (Again, I don't know anything about the inside of kurns in this game, this is just an example off the top of my head of incorporating new while preserving old).</p><p>And there's no real way anyone can argue that the cities in eq2 even compare to the ones in eq1 in terms of originality and feel. They may have had bad textures and bad layouts, but they were very very original and full of their own character. I suppose with a mini-map a lot of character has been lost since it's no longer neccesary to make a world full of recognizable characteristics for navigation when people spend more time looking at the map, so I guess making an affordable model of a world built on generic design without any character or purpose apart form "get from point a to point b and kill mobs" is just more common sense, but I find it the bane of MMoRPGS now days.</p><p>Anyway it seems I'm in the minority, and in my experience that means either I'm wrong, or theirs no point tryng, so I guess this thread is done for me.</p>

[Naubeta]

I think the cities are amazingly well done in EQ2, especially freeport and qeynos.It's seeing freeport as a newbie ratonga that hooked me on this game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Cusashorn]

<p>Everything that has happened in EQ2 is explained through the lore.</p><p>The whole backsetting behind EQ2 is that it takes place 500 years after the events of the Planes of Power in EQlive. In those 500 years, the gods had withdrawn from Norrath in order to recover thier powers. Before leaving, Rallos Zek and Solusek Ro instructed thier armies to carry out a few tasks while they were gone.</p><p>Specifically, They ordered thier Avatars (mortals imbued with divine powers from the god) to form up another Rallosian Army to take over Antonica like they once had in ages past. The army was pretty much unstoppable, except that they made one big mistake. They defiled the Temple of Cazic Thule and enslaved it's beings from within and forced them to fight in thier army. This ticked off Cazic Thule something fierce. The army would soon enslave the Splitpaw gnolls in South Karana, which in turn ticked off Brell Serilis.</p><p>Alright. Skip ahead a few months. The 2nd Rallosian Army engaged in battle with the forces of Freeport and Qeynos. On the Freeport side, the monks of the Ashen Order had flanked the army from behind, and one monk defeated the Avatar of War. Because they defiled the Temple of Cazic Thule, CT unleashed the greenmist and killed off every ogre who was directly part of the army. The only ones it didn't destroy were the ogres still situated deep inside Guk, clearing out the remaining Frogloks, and the ogres who were on Freeport's side to begin with. On the Qeynos side, The Avatar of Flame (Solusek Ro) was defeated by the Knights of Thunder, and Brell Serilis opened up the ground to swallow the army for enslaving the gnolls. Many orcs were able to escape, but the battled was won.</p><p>Both cities had taken considerable physical damage. After the end of the war, both Qeynos and Freeport were barely standing. Even over on Faydwere, Kelethin was almost burnt completely to the ground. They had to rebuild all three cities. </p><p>Skip ahead a few hundred years, The Rending began. Earthquakes and storms that severely changed the landscape. Breaking up Antonica into seperate continents, and destroying many cities in the process. Qeynos and Freeport were once again chosen to be saved from total destruction, but the damage they took was so severe that they had to rebuild most of the city from scratch.</p><p>You can find the old North Qeynos gate in Elddar Grove now. </p><p>Most of Faydwere had been spared from the Rending, but Tunare's influence through her Bloom of Growth, a huge flower she had entrusted to the dragon Wuoshi to guard while she was gone, had caused numerous new growths to appear across Faydwere. Lesser Faydark had been almost completely transformed into something new entirely.</p><p>If you take a look at the old EQlive maps of Butcherblock, Steamfont, and Ak'Anon, you will find them to be very close in design with Butcherblock, Steamfont, and Klak'Anon in EQ2.</p><p>Skip ahead to 50 years ago before the present timeline: Luclin was destroyed. It was blown up by an as-of-yet unconfirmed source. The Dresolik Crystal that Rallos Zek and Solusek Ro placed in the Nexus, and the dragon Kerafyrm (The sleeper), are the two most speculated causes.</p><p>Chunks of Luclin rained down on Norrath for 35 years before it would settle. This further changed the landscape around Norrath as well.</p><p>In the meantime, the orcs had taken settlement to Jaggedpine Forest, and began to log and devastate the landscape there in order to fuel thier war machines.</p><p>by now you're probably bored of reading all this, so I'll end it here. All in all, all the changes you see around Norrath in EQ2 are mostly explained in the lore.</p>

[Rainmare]

So your real complaint is that the EQ1 cities of old in EQ2 aren't the exact same city with a graphic facelift. they explain everything that happened, and why. the War of the Fay saw Felwithe sacked and destroyed. the city of Kelethin was all but abandoned when the gods sent visions in dreams for people to head to Qeynos/Freeport, not to mention torn up and damaged as well in that same war.Lfay looks like it does because it holds in it's depths the Bloom of Growth, Tunare's version of the Holy Grail or the Ark of the Covenant. Tunare's power on Norrath. As to music...I think new Tunaria's music fits it wonderfully. it's beautifully elven, but something seems..off. you call it a lack of soul. but when you look into it, New Tunaria is a xenophobic, religiously zealous city-state...that on top of which, was corrupted by Mayong. Which can be set off by the idea that something is wrong with the music, and looking into it you find out what's wrong with the city.And 'Freeport's corruption' WAS beaten into your head in EQ1.(for some classes, quite literally) it was just visually beaten into your head, rather than vocally/quest driven. East Freeport was a slum, with bums begging for money, and theives and criminals infesting it. the city was drab, cracked, worn down...until you got to North Freeport, were everything was in good condition, no bums, no obvious social problems, except those cause by Lucan's obviously corrupt leadership. i.e. the good guys sectioned off in freeport under death if they left it.Cabalis sank into the swamp it was built on. just like Venice is right now. in due time, that city won't exist without serious and grandscale work. it'll simply sink into the ground. Cabalis has been doing just that since before EQ1, and in the 500 years difference, and the Rending, and the Shattering, it sank/collapsed. Just like the FV outpost. the rending tore it apart and it fell into the ocean.My only gripes with the cities is that they took 3 cities with rich histories and such, and turned them into dungeons. Kaladim conquered from the inside by a Horde, Felwithe destroyed and New Tunaria built that is so xenophobic that they are kill on sight to everyone, and Ak'anon has experienced a Terminator-style Skynet takeover.I would have perfered they kept those cities as cities. I would have enjoyed seeing an EQ2 version of Ak'anon with conflicts/quests/issues stemming from the Dark Reflection. New Tunaria being a starting point and working to keep the Crushbone in check with Kelethin. Kaladim working against the Horde, which could have been positioned outside rather then inside the city.

[Coniaric]

<p>You're almost right about Cabilis.</p><p>Part of it did fall down.</p><p>But other parts of the city were actually thrusted up high in the sky atop the plateau surrounding the area what we can go to currently. By looking up, anyone can see few parts of the ruins up there.</p><p>If anyone want to compare the cities or dungeons, they should get EQLive maps and compare them to EQ2's. The layouts are generally the same, or at least similiar.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>Don't forget about Rivervale, who's city has been partially taken over by extra-dimensional malevolent forces, even if Nillipus finds the time to still cause mischief now and then.</p><p>Or the Fallen Gate, which used to be the foreign quarter of Neriak until it was destroyed by the Leatherfoot Brigade when Neriak let thier guard down.</p>

[Wilde_Night]

<p>Actually, according to in-game lore, Fallen Gate was destroyed by Tseralith to keep the invaders from fighting deeper.  The Leatherfoot Brigade's bomber never set the bomb off.  It is part of the Ghost Sargent's quest line.  You find the suicide bomber over in the spider tunnels.</p><p>Tseralith collapsed the tunnels between the Foreign Quarter and the rest of Neriak, sealing herself then in the Vault of the Fallen, where she then took on the form of a demon over the years and was worshipped.</p>

[Sylaz]

I understand that most of the changes have good solid lore behind why they are changed, but I do feel that it would be nice to see more that weren't quite so drastic.It's things like the fact that Dagnor's Cauldron just dropped into the ocean, and now Unrest is just sort of barely supported that get to me. I really liked the way it was set up in EQ1, and the new way just isn't the same to me.Or how certain zones seem to have shifted quite a bit, like Fallen Gate in relation to Neriak now. It seems impossible to think that the two were once connected, or even close to each other.I have a feeling that Odus will be completely unrecognizable. After all, you had The Hole, and so following The Rending I wouldn't be surprised to see that filled with water from the ocean, or a sizable part of it collapsed. Paineel will probably have been completely destroy no matter what. Then with whatever the Erudites did, a LOT has probably "mutated" from the aftermath of that.I understand all this, but it would still be nice to see an old city that hasn't change too much from EQ1. I can understand something maybe getting a little bigger, and so you have the "old town" section, which is basically a copy of the EQ1 zone, with newer looking buildings and places built up around it. Would it really have been so bad to have let just one city survive what was thrown at it and still be basically the same as it was?

[Kitsune286]

Do real-world cities change over the course of 500 years? Sure!While it is true that we won't have a rending or moon exploding here, in the course of 500 years, we went from dirt roads (well, not even really roads back in the 1500's) to mag-lev high-speed trains and pavement.Can you honestly expect a city to go 500 years and /not/ change somehow?

[LordPazuzu]

<cite>Sylaz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or how certain zones seem to have shifted quite a bit, like Fallen Gate in relation to Neriak now. It seems impossible to think that the two were once connected, or even close to each other.</blockquote><p>Some of this can be explained by a design philosophy that was rumored to be in effect when EQ2 was taking shape.  An attempt was made to distance EQ2 from EQ1 for some reason.  This is why Fallen Gate is now in the Commonlands where Befallen should be.  Befallen has been moved to Antonica, renamed Stormhold, and sits where Blackburrow should be.  The Befallen move was the most ridiculous because ANYONE whose ever played EQ1 knows [Removed for Content] well it's really Befallen, right down to Gynok Moltor's name written on the walls in blood.  Hell, one of the quest NPCs just inside the zone even claimed to have the secrets to <i><b>Befallen's</b></i> hidden treasures as you entered.  I think they edited that out of the voice track finally.</p><p>That design philosophy, if it truly existed, seems to have been kicked to the curb by Scott Hartsman and the Echoes of Faydwer expansion.  With EoF and RoK they seem more focused on taking what existed before and beating it up and aging it 500 years in the storyline, instead of ignoring EQ1 wholesale.  I like alot of the changes the made graphically.  Karnor's Castle has alot more character now.  Before it was a big grey box sitting in the dust.  Alot of the look and feel of those EQ1 areas was due to the technology constraints of the time.  Take a look at Teren's Grasp, it's still huge Combine Spires and pyramids, but with alot more visual style and flair.  Kaladim is still layed out pretty much the same, but they updated the facade out front to take into account EQ2s higher quality graphical style.  It's still a dwarf with an axe over the entrance.</p>

[Cusashorn]

They had to move Stormhold because there wasn't a level 20 dungeon on the Antonica side, and they clearly intended for Fallen Gate to exist.

[Armawk]

Okay the fallen gate/neriak geography is a LITTLE borked but not so borked it doesnt work well enough to be okay I think.