AA Pondering

[Banditman]

Warning!  This post contains lots of math!  If you aren't "that kind" of person, you should probably stop now!  What I'm hoping is that at least a couple of folks are "that kind" of person and can help me, go over what I'm looking at and shoot holes in it.My "goal" is to determine whether it's better to go Fortissimo 8 or Minstrel's Melody 8.  Fortissimo yields a 10% chance for the group to double attack, while MM yields a 56% improvement to our Haste song.First, we have to identify a swing rate baseline.  I'm using the Ayonic Axe, 3.5 delay and Allegretto at 30 (I think that's Master 1).  With nothing else modifying the delay, this combination should yield a true delay of 2.7 seconds, or, 22 swings per minute.Applying Minstrel's Melody, I would increase my bonus from 30 to 47.  This increase would make the 3.5 delay Ayonic Axe have an actual delay of 2.4 seconds, or 25 swings per minute.  In short, Minstrel's Melody gives me three additional swings per minute.Fortissimo gives me a 10% chance to double attack, but only against the base rate of 22 swings per minute.  So, Fortissimo then gives me 2.2 additional swings per minute.Finally, you also must consider that additional Haste (Minstrel's Melody) also increases the number of procs per minute.  This is a lot harder to quantify, because there are so many potential procs.My current "thinking" is that I would be better off taking MM as opposed to Fortissimo, as I get more additional swings and a greater proc chance.My question is . . . what am I not thinking of?

[Wluil]

This is exactly the kind of stuff I wonder about myself, though never had the thought to actually put the math to it. Never quite knew where to start. <div></div><div>Here's a couple more questions to confound the matter more <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div></div><div>Is haste effected by diminishing returns as well? It's a percentage based buff, so not sure how that fits into the whole diminishing returns curve. I think that mostly applies to stats though. </div><div></div><div>What is haste's effect on proc rates? I was under the impression that the proc rate, was the proc rate. Wether you swung 10 times a minute or 100 times you were going to get the effect 1.9 times a minute regardless. </div><div></div><div>Right now I'm specced down STA for the 10% DA, but thanks to our free AA respec that came with GU 45 I think I'm going to try down the INT line for the max haste and see what comes of it. I've been doing some baseline DPS marks against the stone wall in KJ, so I've got an idea what I do with just auto-attacks and the DA. Should be easy enough to see if there's a marked difference, at least in doing base auto-attacks.</div>

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>i have both ^_~</p><p>The bonuses to minstrels and fortissimo for my group far outweight what i might get from the poison.  All it takes is 1 other melee in the group, and those 2 buffs alone will increase their DPS by far more than the poison would add to myself.</p>

[Bewts]

<cite>RanmaBoyType wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>i have both ^_~</p><p>The bonuses to minstrels and fortissimo for my group far outweight what i might get from the poison.  All it takes is 1 other melee in the group, and those 2 buffs alone will increase their DPS by far more than the poison would add to myself.</p></blockquote><p>But what if you find yourself typically in a group of Illy Lock Wiz Troub Necro Fury?</p><p>I find myself in that setup more often than not, although sometimes I end up with an SK or Assassin instead of the Necro.</p><p>With worn 25% Haste, our self haste AD3 at 26% and Illusionist Haste which is another 55% ish?? I find myself at 100% or more haste typically. </p><p>I did the math from 9 CoA runs over the past week and a half.  From what my math shows me, the loss of the Ext DPS from the poison proc is nearly made up from the Auto attacks gained from haste.  Procs are actually fairly irrelevant unless you are grouped with a dirge or raiding with mythical dirges at that point, more hits would = lots more procs.  The gain from procs by gaining that extra 25% or so haste going down the Int line is along the lines of 2-5 Ext DPS.  The gain in auto attacks is around 40-50 Ext DPS where as the loss from the Poison proc is 45-55 Ext DPS.</p><p>Basically, its a wash for us in regards to changing our DPS on a comparitive Poison vs Haste debate.  The gain would be realized by melee in the group benefitting from more auto attacks.  I live in caster groups so thats a non-issue most of the time as most melee if they get stuck with us are happy to have Fortissimo and DKtM.</p><p>One thing to consider is the loss of DPS by not having Bump to utilize Nightstrike as quickly compared to sneaking and then using Nightstrike.  Nightstrike is anywhere from 40-60 Ext DPS depending on cast order if you have Bump.  I've always had Bump so I can't say for sure what the Ext DPS would be w/out having macro Bump/Nightstrike.  Let alone the loss of auto attacks that would come with having to sneak or use Nightstrike.  Bump in of itself is another 20-30 Ext DPS.  I can't compare that to the Int line's skill and the extra offensive skills you get from using it because again I've never used it.</p><p>Unless someone proves me wrong (which is entirely possible) I will continue to use the Bump Line down to 8 points in Poison, DKtM and 8 points in Fortissimo with the leftover points put into sword and board for now although I may switch back to the STR line once I get my epic for the AE immunity in a 4-1 setup (forget the group version and its 10 min recast).  This is in my raid group setting of all casters a priest and myself.</p><p>In a more melee orientated group setting I would probably suggest dumping our Poison line in support of the haste, especially if that person is a Ranger or Assassin.  The big benefit is Auto attacks, so the more melee types in your group, the more DPS your group and raid would see from going down Intelligence compared to the maybe 100 total change in DPS we see from Poison/Bump/Nightstrike combination.</p>

[Banditman]

Here's the deal with Haste.   (Disclaimer:  I use ProfitUI, so some of this may not be exactly true for everyone)On your persona screen, you get a listed number for Haste.  It's NOT the actual percentage.  It's just a number.  Now, until you get very very close to 100, it's probably within a point or two of the actual percentage.  Now, as far as capping, the NUMBER caps out at 200.  When you mouse over a 200, it will show you with 125% actual Haste.Realistically, you cap at 100%, though a very extreme diminishing return curve will allow you to go over 100%.For Troubadors, context is everything.  If I were consistently in a melee only group, I might try to find a way to squeeze both Fort and MM out of that tree, but I doubt it.  Bump and Turnstrike are just too ingrained.  I find that I need them.I do find myself using Song of Magic (and it's INT line upgrade) more and more.  As the mobs go orange, the value of this buff begins to really show it's strength, especially in a group with no Warlock.

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>/sigh</p><p>i can count on one hand the number of times in the past 3 months that there has been an illusionist in my group <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> hence the reason for the haste as a choice from me.  The past several raids we are lucky to get 2 mages at all..</p>

[Wluil]

I decided to give the haste thing a try, and I have to say I've been very pleased. <div></div><div>Currently my bard tree looks like this: </div><div>AGI: 4-1</div><div>STA: 4-4-4-8</div><div>WIS: 4-6-4-8-2</div><div>INT: 4-4-4-8</div><div></div><div>What I discovered is what I lost in poison proc, I got back from more auto-attacks/double attacks. My raid group is also experimenting with a Hybrid DPS group, instead of a straight caster or straight melee group. So it's nice to bring love to both sides of the party. In either case, this is what I'm going to stick with for a long while. Tomorrow is SoH night for us, and I typically use the trash in there for parse analysis. Will have some numbers in a few days.</div>

[Bewts]

<p>You can still get turnstrike by going for haste in the Int line... You just have to forgo getting Bump.  Or you could get Bump and lose turnstrike... Loss of bump is approx 80 DPS between nightstrike and bump... but I think you'd make that up ignoring AE's every minute.</p>

[RanmaBoyType]

i chose turnstrike over bump for the exact reason of ALL the aoes in RoK.  not having to joust is huge if you can time the aoe's proper.

[Banditman]

Which AE's do you find jousting effective against?  I'll spot you Imzok and Master P'Tasa.

[Wluil]

<cite>Bewts wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You can still get turnstrike by going for haste in the Int line... You just have to forgo getting Bump.  Or you could get Bump and lose turnstrike... Loss of bump is approx 80 DPS between nightstrike and bump... but I think you'd make that up ignoring AE's every minute.</p></blockquote>I think it's kind of situational at that point. If you know you're not going to survive the AoE, they by all means drop bump for turnstrike. However, if you have enough resists to eat the AoE or you have a RL that insists that EVERYONE GET OUT despite immunity then take bump. <div></div><div>Lucky me managed to land the Twelve Tone Earstone from Master P'Tasa (woot) which has locked me into the bump, since the proc fires off our shrouded hit. If your guild is running SoH farm it till you get this gem. I went from clocking 1,500 in SoH to 2,100 (group makeup didn't change, this was mid-zone and on trash) all from being able to chain the big hits faster. It gives a 25% casting time speed increase, which makes the long casting Thunderous Overture just deadly.</div>